[Phono-L] Union Show Photos 2011
Greetings, The cheeseheads have a busy summer and the photos of the Union 2011 phonograph show are now posted on the WIMAPS website at: www.wimaps.org. Check out the new Nipper Collectibles book Vol. II at: www.audioantique.com We look forward to attending the CAPS show August 13 14 and seeing fellow collectors. Check their website at: http://www.antiquephono.org/index.html Enjoy and have a happy and safe 4th of July! Robin Joan Rolfs Visit us at: www.audioantique.com ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip
I think 3.5 days is plenty of time to see it all and not to miss a thing. In my opinion, the museum has gone very commercial and is not what it used to be. They still have many great cars on display and some interesting artifacts, but it was really dumbed down over the years. I think one day for the museum and one day for the village would be enough, but that is up to you. Dave --- On Sun, 7/3/11, Ken and Brenda Brekke kb...@charter.net wrote: From: Ken and Brenda Brekke kb...@charter.net Subject: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sunday, July 3, 2011, 10:11 AM We will be taking a sort of “Pilgrimage” in our Model A Ford to Dearborn Michigan in August. This will be a sort of crescendo of both of my hobby interests to visit the Ford Museum and also Greenfield Village and the Edison exhibits. In our travels, we will be staying in Ludington, Saginaw, Romulus, and Grand Rapids. My question to anyone on this list from Michigan is “Are there any phonograph related sites to see in these towns?” If we have time, I would like to check them out. If anyone has had the opportunity to visit Greenfield Village, what would you recommend to look for and not miss? We will have about 3 ½ days onsite and don’t want to miss anything. Thanks, Ken Brekke ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip
I agree with Dave, Ken, two days would be more than enough. I've taken numerous trips to the other side of my state to visit and have done so in only day each time. I may have missed stuff, but like Dave has said it has really been dumbed down over the years. It is still a great place to visit. Thank you, George Vollema Great Lakes Antique Phonograph 5092 Muskego Dr. Newaygo MI 49337-8556 231-652-5753 www.victroladoctor.com - Original Message - From: Ken and Brenda Brekke To: 'Antique Phonograph List' Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 10:11 AM Subject: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip We will be taking a sort of Pilgrimage in our Model A Ford to Dearborn Michigan in August. This will be a sort of crescendo of both of my hobby interests to visit the Ford Museum and also Greenfield Village and the Edison exhibits. In our travels, we will be staying in Ludington, Saginaw, Romulus, and Grand Rapids. My question to anyone on this list from Michigan is Are there any phonograph related sites to see in these towns? If we have time, I would like to check them out. If anyone has had the opportunity to visit Greenfield Village, what would you recommend to look for and not miss? We will have about 3 ½ days onsite and don't want to miss anything. Thanks, Ken Brekke ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Dearborn trip
We will be taking a sort of Pilgrimage in our Model A Ford to Dearborn Michigan in August. This will be a sort of crescendo of both of my hobby interests to visit the Ford Museum and also Greenfield Village and the Edison exhibits. In our travels, we will be staying in Ludington, Saginaw, Romulus, and Grand Rapids. My question to anyone on this list from Michigan is Are there any phonograph related sites to see in these towns? If we have time, I would like to check them out. If anyone has had the opportunity to visit Greenfield Village, what would you recommend to look for and not miss? We will have about 3 ½ days onsite and dont want to miss anything. Thanks, Ken Brekke ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip
I agree with the others that 2 days would be enough. I've been there about 8 times since I was a kid. I was there in 2009. Be sure you visit Henry Ford's house, which is near the museum. It has an amazing powerhouse containing turbine generators that are powered from a creek running through his yard. They generated DC power for the house, of course, because he was Edison's friend. They still work, and one was running, though it was only powering a voltmeter or something. In Greenfield village, pay careful attention at Edison's Menlo Park laboratory. Look (of course) for the demonstration of the Edison / Bergmann tinfoil phonograph. They record a man's voice in the morning on a piece of tinfoil, and they play it back all day. I told the woman that Rene Rondeau made the tinfoil that she was using. She said Rene sounded familiar. Then she opened the drawer in the Bergmann Tinfoil, and pulled out Rene's book on tinfoil phonographs!!! Also, look in the other rooms in the Menlo lab and office, because there is a ANOTHER Bergmann tinfoil machine, though it is all rusty. There is a truly amazing machine on the 2nd floor of the Lab. It is a Brady Tinfoil. That is the 2nd Edison machine, which he took to Washington, DC to be photographed at Matthew Brady Studios, and also demonstrated to the President. The Brady machine is obviously TREMENDOUSLY under-appreciated by the museum. It was sitting on a wooden chair off to the side, and I didn't even notice it while I was there. That night at the hotel, I was viewing my photos. I was astounded to see the Brady in one photo. So the next day I paid admission again to Greenfield village, and went to the Lab to see the Brady. I asked a tour guide if I could go past their wooden fence to see that Brady tinfoil. He said The what?. He had no idea what it was, or that it was unbelievably valuable. And to my disbelief, he would not allow me to get close to it to take better pictures. So I had him take a couple pics. Jim Nichol On Jul 3, 2011, at 10:11 AM, Ken and Brenda Brekke wrote: We will be taking a sort of “Pilgrimage” in our Model A Ford to Dearborn Michigan in August. This will be a sort of crescendo of both of my hobby interests to visit the Ford Museum and also Greenfield Village and the Edison exhibits. In our travels, we will be staying in Ludington, Saginaw, Romulus, and Grand Rapids. My question to anyone on this list from Michigan is “Are there any phonograph related sites to see in these towns?” If we have time, I would like to check them out. If anyone has had the opportunity to visit Greenfield Village, what would you recommend to look for and not miss? We will have about 3 ½ days onsite and don’t want to miss anything. Thanks, Ken Brekke ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip
Also, look in the Henry Ford Museum for a test tube containing Edison's Last Breath. There were test tubes in the room when Edison died, and Charles Edison had them sealed with paraffin. He gave this one to Henry Ford, which was discovered at Ford's house after Ford and his wife were dead in the 1950's. I saw this test tube first in 1997. I almost fell over. I had just read a science fiction book called Edison's Last Breath. The premise was that Edison's last breath AND his soul were captured in a test tube, which was opened in the recent years by a kid. The kid spent the rest of the book mentally communicating with Edison on various adventures, but I can't remember any details. Not once did it occur to me that there is really a test tube like that, presumably without a soul in it. Jim Nichol On Jul 3, 2011, at 1:19 PM, Jim Nichol wrote: I agree with the others that 2 days would be enough. I've been there about 8 times since I was a kid. I was there in 2009. Be sure you visit Henry Ford's house, which is near the museum. It has an amazing powerhouse containing turbine generators that are powered from a creek running through his yard. They generated DC power for the house, of course, because he was Edison's friend. They still work, and one was running, though it was only powering a voltmeter or something. In Greenfield village, pay careful attention at Edison's Menlo Park laboratory. Look (of course) for the demonstration of the Edison / Bergmann tinfoil phonograph. They record a man's voice in the morning on a piece of tinfoil, and they play it back all day. I told the woman that Rene Rondeau made the tinfoil that she was using. She said Rene sounded familiar. Then she opened the drawer in the Bergmann Tinfoil, and pulled out Rene's book on tinfoil phonographs!!! Also, look in the other rooms in the Menlo lab and office, because there is a ANOTHER Bergmann tinfoil machine, though it is all rusty. There is a truly amazing machine on the 2nd floor of the Lab. It is a Brady Tinfoil. That is the 2nd Edison machine, which he took to Washington, DC to be photographed at Matthew Brady Studios, and also demonstrated to the President. The Brady machine is obviously TREMENDOUSLY under-appreciated by the museum. It was sitting on a wooden chair off to the side, and I didn't even notice it while I was there. That night at the hotel, I was viewing my photos. I was astounded to see the Brady in one photo. So the next day I paid admission again to Greenfield village, and went to the Lab to see the Brady. I asked a tour guide if I could go past their wooden fence to see that Brady tinfoil. He said The what?. He had no idea what it was, or that it was unbelievably valuable. And to my disbelief, he would not allow me to get close to it to take better pictures. So I had him take a couple pics. Jim Nichol On Jul 3, 2011, at 10:11 AM, Ken and Brenda Brekke wrote: We will be taking a sort of “Pilgrimage” in our Model A Ford to Dearborn Michigan in August. This will be a sort of crescendo of both of my hobby interests to visit the Ford Museum and also Greenfield Village and the Edison exhibits. In our travels, we will be staying in Ludington, Saginaw, Romulus, and Grand Rapids. My question to anyone on this list from Michigan is “Are there any phonograph related sites to see in these towns?” If we have time, I would like to check them out. If anyone has had the opportunity to visit Greenfield Village, what would you recommend to look for and not miss? We will have about 3 ½ days onsite and don’t want to miss anything. Thanks, Ken Brekke ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
Jim Nichol wrote: I saw this test tube first in 1997. I almost fell over. I had just read a science fiction book called Edison's Last Breath. The premise was that Edison's last breath AND his soul were captured in a test tube, which was opened in the recent years by a kid. The kid spent the rest of the book mentally communicating with Edison on various adventures, but I can't remember any details. Not once did it occur to me that there is really a test tube like that, presumably without a soul in it. Jim Nichol = For those interested in this book, the title is Expiration Date and written by Tim Powers. It's a very good read, I might add. And Jim...I very much enjoyed your posts about the Menlo Lab and Ford's residence. Thanks for the great info. Dennis ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip
I've been to Dearborn only once - and that was 10 years ago. At that time, the only talking machine I saw at the Henry Ford was an exhibition Bergmann tinfoil phonograph. I doubt that most people noticed it or even knew what it was unless they paused to read the little sign. Greenfield Village was better, in that the Edison Menlo Park lab featured a couple of original tinfoil machines. Still, I didn't see a single morning glory horn or Victrola in either place. There was an extensive display of adding machines and old office equipment, a complete history of vacuum cleaners, and other drab (to my eye at least) and rather boring (ibid) exhibits. I longed to be given the opportunity to arrange a variety of talking machines in the large space occupied by those adding machines... Still, the tremendous exhibits of automobiles, trains, and dozens of other attractions made the visit absolutely worthwhile. George P. -Original Message- From: Ken and Brenda Brekke kb...@charter.net To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sun, Jul 3, 2011 8:56 am Subject: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip We will be taking a sort of Pilgrimage in our Model A Ford to Dearborn Michigan in August. This will be a sort of crescendo of both of my hobby interests to visit the Ford Museum and also Greenfield Village and the Edison exhibits. In our travels, we will be staying in Ludington, Saginaw, Romulus, and Grand Rapids. My question to anyone on this list from Michigan is Are there any phonograph related sites to see in these towns? If we have time, I would like to check them out. If anyone has had the opportunity to visit Greenfield Village, what would you recommend to look for and not miss? We will have about 3 ½ days onsite and dont want to miss anything. Thanks, Ken Brekke ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
Oh, yes. The book is Expiration Date. Other comments about the museum: 1. I was quite unhappy that both a tour guide and a guy playing a young Tom Edison told us that Edison did NOT invent the light bulb, he only perfected it. I couldn't believe they were spreading this garbage to every visitor. Since when does it count when other people try to invent something and fail? I think the US Patent Office agrees with me on the light bulb. It's bad enough that they said that Edison didn't invent the light bulb. But they had to gall to have an actor playing Edison say it out loud. That is an unbelievably inaccurate portrayal of Edison. The actor did get in one jab, however. He pointed out that unlike the others who worked on the light bulb, his actually worked. 2. I'm unhappy that Edison is downplayed compared to how it used to be at the museum. The large phonograph display that was there in the 1970's wasn't there in 2009. The worst thing is that they renamed the complex The Henry Ford instead of using Ford's name for it: The Edison Institute. 3. I am very impressed that they have a Chrysler Turbine car there. As a kid, I saw one of the 50 produced that Chrysler was showing in a local shopping mall. Almost all of them were scrapped on purpose shortly thereafter. I just found out this week that Jay Leno has one (see video on YouTube). 4. I didn't see the Edison Waterpower Phonograph in 2009, but I believe I saw it there on my previous trip in 1997. Jim Nichol On Jul 3, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Dennis Back wrote: For those interested in this book, the title is Expiration Date and written by Tim Powers. It's a very good read, I might add. And Jim...I very much enjoyed your posts about the Menlo Lab and Ford's residence. Dennis ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
For those of us who went to the museum before it was dumbed down, the place was magical. The last time I was there they had an M electric out in the open with no glass around it and sitting in a dark corner. Parts had been picked off of it. I desperately need a brush door plate for an M and could have just lifted the one on this machine right out, pocketed it, and walked out. They didn't seen to care when I brought the question of protecting the machine up to one of the key people there. It was very sad to see them take out important artifacts of the American Industrial Revolution from the main building to put in a snack bar and kiddy play area. Just the history of American steam engines alone was worth the visit and it is now all but gone. Needless-to-say, I have never stolen a phonograph part for my Edison collection and am still looking for a brush inspection door plate for my M electric, a never-ending project machine. I will bite the bullet and make a reproduction out of a cut up Edison Standard B bedplate later this summer if all goes well. BTW - Are they still demonstrating the Bergmann tinfoil reproduction machine? I made a tinfoil recording but the old biddy operating the machine would not give me the tinfoil. I even offered to pay for it as I don't own a single tinfoil recording. Regards to everyone, may all your finds be rare ones, Al PS: The last time I saw Edison's Last Breath they had it sitting in a dimly lit cheesy glass cabinet and it was poorly labeled. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] auction fees
What is considered fair price for an auction house to take for auctioning phonographs and related? I've asked this question twice but it never comes up on the daily digest. Thanks Ger ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
The last time I was there they gave me a piece of tin foil that had been recorded. I am sorry that they were so unkind to you. Dave --- On Sun, 7/3/11, clockworkh...@aol.com clockworkh...@aol.com wrote: From: clockworkh...@aol.com clockworkh...@aol.com Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sunday, July 3, 2011, 5:07 PM For those of us who went to the museum before it was dumbed down, the place was magical. The last time I was there they had an M electric out in the open with no glass around it and sitting in a dark corner. Parts had been picked off of it. I desperately need a brush door plate for an M and could have just lifted the one on this machine right out, pocketed it, and walked out. They didn't seen to care when I brought the question of protecting the machine up to one of the key people there. It was very sad to see them take out important artifacts of the American Industrial Revolution from the main building to put in a snack bar and kiddy play area. Just the history of American steam engines alone was worth the visit and it is now all but gone. Needless-to-say, I have never stolen a phonograph part for my Edison collection and am still looking for a brush inspection door plate for my M electric, a never-ending project machine. I will bite the bullet and make a reproduction out of a cut up Edison Standard B bedplate later this summer if all goes well. BTW - Are they still demonstrating the Bergmann tinfoil reproduction machine? I made a tinfoil recording but the old biddy operating the machine would not give me the tinfoil. I even offered to pay for it as I don't own a single tinfoil recording. Regards to everyone, may all your finds be rare ones, Al PS: The last time I saw Edison's Last Breath they had it sitting in a dimly lit cheesy glass cabinet and it was poorly labeled. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
I visited the Edison site many years ago and a tour guide told the group about the flat record and Mr. Victor Victrola. Cross my heart. Paul Charosh In a message dated 7/3/2011 6:13:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jnic...@fuse.net writes: Oh, yes. The book is Expiration Date. Other comments about the museum: 1. I was quite unhappy that both a tour guide and a guy playing a young Tom Edison told us that Edison did NOT invent the light bulb, he only perfected it. I couldn't believe they were spreading this garbage to every visitor. Since when does it count when other people try to invent something and fail? I think the US Patent Office agrees with me on the light bulb. It's bad enough that they said that Edison didn't invent the light bulb. But they had to gall to have an actor playing Edison say it out loud. That is an unbelievably inaccurate portrayal of Edison. The actor did get in one jab, however. He pointed out that unlike the others who worked on the light bulb, his actually worked. 2. I'm unhappy that Edison is downplayed compared to how it used to be at the museum. The large phonograph display that was there in the 1970's wasn't there in 2009. The worst thing is that they renamed the complex The Henry Ford instead of using Ford's name for it: The Edison Institute. 3. I am very impressed that they have a Chrysler Turbine car there. As a kid, I saw one of the 50 produced that Chrysler was showing in a local shopping mall. Almost all of them were scrapped on purpose shortly thereafter. I just found out this week that Jay Leno has one (see video on YouTube). 4. I didn't see the Edison Waterpower Phonograph in 2009, but I believe I saw it there on my previous trip in 1997. Jim Nichol On Jul 3, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Dennis Back wrote: For those interested in this book, the title is Expiration Date and written by Tim Powers. It's a very good read, I might add. And Jim...I very much enjoyed your posts about the Menlo Lab and Ford's residence. Dennis ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
Search Google for who invented the light bulb and you'll see the overwhelming consensus that Edison did not invent it. He improved earlier light bulb inventions and designed power plants to power his light bulb. The most important part of this was that he marketed the entire lighting system, including bulbs, generators, and electrical grids, that municipalities could buy, making it a commercial success. I'm glad to hear the museum has it right. I'd like to point out that a distant relative, Moses G. Farmer, invented an electric light 20 years before Edison, patented it, and in 1858 his house in Salem, Massachusetts was the first in the world lit by electric light. It was not a failure, it actually worked, but it just was not commercially viable. -- Greg Farmer - Original Message - From: Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath Oh, yes. The book is Expiration Date. Other comments about the museum: 1. I was quite unhappy that both a tour guide and a guy playing a young Tom Edison told us that Edison did NOT invent the light bulb, he only perfected it. I couldn't believe they were spreading this garbage to every visitor. Since when does it count when other people try to invent something and fail? I think the US Patent Office agrees with me on the light bulb. It's bad enough that they said that Edison didn't invent the light bulb. But they had to gall to have an actor playing Edison say it out loud. That is an unbelievably inaccurate portrayal of Edison. The actor did get in one jab, however. He pointed out that unlike the others who worked on the light bulb, his actually worked. 2. I'm unhappy that Edison is downplayed compared to how it used to be at the museum. The large phonograph display that was there in the 1970's wasn't there in 2009. The worst thing is that they renamed the complex The Henry Ford instead of using Ford's name for it: The Edison Institute. 3. I am very impressed that they have a Chrysler Turbine car there. As a kid, I saw one of the 50 produced that Chrysler was showing in a local shopping mall. Almost all of them were scrapped on purpose shortly thereafter. I just found out this week that Jay Leno has one (see video on YouTube). 4. I didn't see the Edison Waterpower Phonograph in 2009, but I believe I saw it there on my previous trip in 1997. Jim Nichol On Jul 3, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Dennis Back wrote: For those interested in this book, the title is Expiration Date and written by Tim Powers. It's a very good read, I might add. And Jim...I very much enjoyed your posts about the Menlo Lab and Ford's residence. Dennis ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
I strongly disagree. Yes, Google will tell you that many others worked on the light bulb. But those stories all conclude that none of them were practical. Edison's contribution was not only that he invented the power plant, but more importantly, he invented the first practical incandescent bulb. If that's not inventing it, I don't know how else to define it. Sure, Edison started out doing some of the things his competitors tried, but rejected all of them because they didn't work. Maybe you had to be alive at the time to appreciate what an enormous breakthrough it was when Edison demonstrated his light bulb. No one cared about the others who failed to produce anything useful. (I'm talking about incandescent bulbs here... obviously the arc light was successful in its own field). Jim On Jul 3, 2011, at 7:39 PM, The Farmers wrote: Search Google for who invented the light bulb and you'll see the overwhelming consensus that Edison did not invent it. He improved earlier light bulb inventions and designed power plants to power his light bulb. The most important part of this was that he marketed the entire lighting system, including bulbs, generators, and electrical grids, that municipalities could buy, making it a commercial success. I'm glad to hear the museum has it right. I'd like to point out that a distant relative, Moses G. Farmer, invented an electric light 20 years before Edison, patented it, and in 1858 his house in Salem, Massachusetts was the first in the world lit by electric light. It was not a failure, it actually worked, but it just was not commercially viable. -- Greg Farmer - Original Message - From: Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath Oh, yes. The book is Expiration Date. Other comments about the museum: 1. I was quite unhappy that both a tour guide and a guy playing a young Tom Edison told us that Edison did NOT invent the light bulb, he only perfected it. I couldn't believe they were spreading this garbage to every visitor. Since when does it count when other people try to invent something and fail? I think the US Patent Office agrees with me on the light bulb. It's bad enough that they said that Edison didn't invent the light bulb. But they had to gall to have an actor playing Edison say it out loud. That is an unbelievably inaccurate portrayal of Edison. The actor did get in one jab, however. He pointed out that unlike the others who worked on the light bulb, his actually worked. 2. I'm unhappy that Edison is downplayed compared to how it used to be at the museum. The large phonograph display that was there in the 1970's wasn't there in 2009. The worst thing is that they renamed the complex The Henry Ford instead of using Ford's name for it: The Edison Institute. 3. I am very impressed that they have a Chrysler Turbine car there. As a kid, I saw one of the 50 produced that Chrysler was showing in a local shopping mall. Almost all of them were scrapped on purpose shortly thereafter. I just found out this week that Jay Leno has one (see video on YouTube). 4. I didn't see the Edison Waterpower Phonograph in 2009, but I believe I saw it there on my previous trip in 1997. Jim Nichol On Jul 3, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Dennis Back wrote: For those interested in this book, the title is Expiration Date and written by Tim Powers. It's a very good read, I might add. And Jim...I very much enjoyed your posts about the Menlo Lab and Ford's residence. Dennis ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
It should not be hard to obtain a piece of recorded tinfoil. There are a lot of repro tinfoil machines around. Jim On Jul 3, 2011, at 7:41 PM, David Dazer wrote: The last time I was there they gave me a piece of tin foil that had been recorded. I am sorry that they were so unkind to you. Dave --- On Sun, 7/3/11, clockworkh...@aol.com clockworkh...@aol.com wrote: From: clockworkh...@aol.com clockworkh...@aol.com Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sunday, July 3, 2011, 5:07 PM For those of us who went to the museum before it was dumbed down, the place was magical. The last time I was there they had an M electric out in the open with no glass around it and sitting in a dark corner. Parts had been picked off of it. I desperately need a brush door plate for an M and could have just lifted the one on this machine right out, pocketed it, and walked out. They didn't seen to care when I brought the question of protecting the machine up to one of the key people there. It was very sad to see them take out important artifacts of the American Industrial Revolution from the main building to put in a snack bar and kiddy play area. Just the history of American steam engines alone was worth the visit and it is now all but gone. Needless-to-say, I have never stolen a phonograph part for my Edison collection and am still looking for a brush inspection door plate for my M electric, a never-ending project machine. I will bite the bullet and make a reproduction out of a cut up Edison Standard B bedplate later this summer if all goes well. BTW - Are they still demonstrating the Bergmann tinfoil reproduction machine? I made a tinfoil recording but the old biddy operating the machine would not give me the tinfoil. I even offered to pay for it as I don't own a single tinfoil recording. Regards to everyone, may all your finds be rare ones, Al PS: The last time I saw Edison's Last Breath they had it sitting in a dimly lit cheesy glass cabinet and it was poorly labeled. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
Now you are changing what you are saying. I agree he invented the first practical incandescent bulb, but he did not invent the light bulb as you claimed in the first posting. invent - come up with (an idea, plan, explanation, theory, or principle) after a mental effort - to be the first person to make or use (eg a machine, method etc) Edison did not come up with the idea, nor was he the first to make or use a light bulb. He perfected the light bulb and invented a version that was practical, and that's what the tour guide was explaining. -- Greg Farmer - Original Message - From: Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath I strongly disagree. Yes, Google will tell you that many others worked on the light bulb. But those stories all conclude that none of them were practical. Edison's contribution was not only that he invented the power plant, but more importantly, he invented the first practical incandescent bulb. If that's not inventing it, I don't know how else to define it. Sure, Edison started out doing some of the things his competitors tried, but rejected all of them because they didn't work. Maybe you had to be alive at the time to appreciate what an enormous breakthrough it was when Edison demonstrated his light bulb. No one cared about the others who failed to produce anything useful. (I'm talking about incandescent bulbs here... obviously the arc light was successful in its own field). Jim On Jul 3, 2011, at 7:39 PM, The Farmers wrote: Search Google for who invented the light bulb and you'll see the overwhelming consensus that Edison did not invent it. He improved earlier light bulb inventions and designed power plants to power his light bulb. The most important part of this was that he marketed the entire lighting system, including bulbs, generators, and electrical grids, that municipalities could buy, making it a commercial success. I'm glad to hear the museum has it right. I'd like to point out that a distant relative, Moses G. Farmer, invented an electric light 20 years before Edison, patented it, and in 1858 his house in Salem, Massachusetts was the first in the world lit by electric light. It was not a failure, it actually worked, but it just was not commercially viable. -- Greg Farmer - Original Message - From: Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath Oh, yes. The book is Expiration Date. Other comments about the museum: 1. I was quite unhappy that both a tour guide and a guy playing a young Tom Edison told us that Edison did NOT invent the light bulb, he only perfected it. I couldn't believe they were spreading this garbage to every visitor. Since when does it count when other people try to invent something and fail? I think the US Patent Office agrees with me on the light bulb. It's bad enough that they said that Edison didn't invent the light bulb. But they had to gall to have an actor playing Edison say it out loud. That is an unbelievably inaccurate portrayal of Edison. The actor did get in one jab, however. He pointed out that unlike the others who worked on the light bulb, his actually worked. 2. I'm unhappy that Edison is downplayed compared to how it used to be at the museum. The large phonograph display that was there in the 1970's wasn't there in 2009. The worst thing is that they renamed the complex The Henry Ford instead of using Ford's name for it: The Edison Institute. 3. I am very impressed that they have a Chrysler Turbine car there. As a kid, I saw one of the 50 produced that Chrysler was showing in a local shopping mall. Almost all of them were scrapped on purpose shortly thereafter. I just found out this week that Jay Leno has one (see video on YouTube). 4. I didn't see the Edison Waterpower Phonograph in 2009, but I believe I saw it there on my previous trip in 1997. Jim Nichol On Jul 3, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Dennis Back wrote: For those interested in this book, the title is Expiration Date and written by Tim Powers. It's a very good read, I might add. And Jim...I very much enjoyed your posts about the Menlo Lab and Ford's residence. Dennis ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
On 7/3/2011 8:38 PM, Jim Nichol wrote: I strongly disagree. Yes, Google will tell you that many others worked on the light bulb. But those stories all conclude that none of them were practical. Edison's contribution was not only that he invented the power plant, but more importantly, he invented the first practical incandescent bulb. The British would disagree: In 1850 Swan began working on a light bulb using carbonized paper filaments in an evacuated glass bulb. By 1860 he was able to demonstrate a working device, and obtained a British patent covering a partial vacuum, carbon filament incandescent lamp. However, the lack of a good vacuum and an adequate electric source resulted in an inefficient bulb with a short lifetime. Fifteen years later, in 1875, Swan returned to consider the problem of the light bulb with the aid of a better vacuum and a carbonized thread as a filament. The most significant feature of Swan's improved lamp was that there was little residual oxygen in the vacuum tube to ignite the filament, thus allowing the filament to glow almost white-hot without catching fire. However, his filament had low resistance, thus needing heavy copper wires to supply it.[7] Swan received a British patent for his device in 1878, about a year before Thomas Edison. In America, Edison had been working on copies of the original light bulb patented by Swan, trying to make them more efficient. Though Swan had beaten him to this goal, Edison obtained patents in America for a fairly direct copy of the Swan light, and started an advertising campaign which claimed that he was the real inventor. Swan, who was less interested in making money from the invention, agreed that Edison could sell the lights in America while he retained the rights in Britain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Swan -- Bill Burns Long Island NY USA http://ftldesign.com ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
Henry Ford would turn over in his grave if he knew that his museum was telling people that Edison didn't invent the light bulb! I'd love to see him come back and confront these people. Jim ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Moses G Farmer
According to Wikipedia Farmer inspired Edison: With his partner William Wallace, he invented the an early dynamo which powered a system of arc lights he exhibited at the Centennial Exhibition of 1876 in Philadelphia, and which inspired Thomas Edison to work on an improved incandescent light. Edison used the Wallace-Farmer 8 horsepower (6.0 kW) dynamo to power his early electric light demonstrations (Jonnes, p47,54, Josephson 176-186). Farmer served as a teacher for a time. Farmer died at the World's Columbian Exposition. Farmer was a pioneer of many aspects of 19th century electrical invention, but, because he and his wife were spiritualists,they felt that their talents were God-given,and he felt that they shouldn't take credit for any of his inventions. As a result he failed to carry his ideas to commercial success. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_G._Farmer From: g...@usfamily.net To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 18:39:39 -0500 Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath Search Google for who invented the light bulb and you'll see the overwhelming consensus that Edison did not invent it. He improved earlier light bulb inventions and designed power plants to power his light bulb. The most important part of this was that he marketed the entire lighting system, including bulbs, generators, and electrical grids, that municipalities could buy, making it a commercial success. I'm glad to hear the museum has it right. I'd like to point out that a distant relative, Moses G. Farmer, invented an electric light 20 years before Edison, patented it, and in 1858 his house in Salem, Massachusetts was the first in the world lit by electric light. It was not a failure, it actually worked, but it just was not commercially viable. -- Greg Farmer - Original Message - From: Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath Oh, yes. The book is Expiration Date. Other comments about the museum: 1. I was quite unhappy that both a tour guide and a guy playing a young Tom Edison told us that Edison did NOT invent the light bulb, he only perfected it. I couldn't believe they were spreading this garbage to every visitor. Since when does it count when other people try to invent something and fail? I think the US Patent Office agrees with me on the light bulb. It's bad enough that they said that Edison didn't invent the light bulb. But they had to gall to have an actor playing Edison say it out loud. That is an unbelievably inaccurate portrayal of Edison. The actor did get in one jab, however. He pointed out that unlike the others who worked on the light bulb, his actually worked. 2. I'm unhappy that Edison is downplayed compared to how it used to be at the museum. The large phonograph display that was there in the 1970's wasn't there in 2009. The worst thing is that they renamed the complex The Henry Ford instead of using Ford's name for it: The Edison Institute. 3. I am very impressed that they have a Chrysler Turbine car there. As a kid, I saw one of the 50 produced that Chrysler was showing in a local shopping mall. Almost all of them were scrapped on purpose shortly thereafter. I just found out this week that Jay Leno has one (see video on YouTube). 4. I didn't see the Edison Waterpower Phonograph in 2009, but I believe I saw it there on my previous trip in 1997. Jim Nichol On Jul 3, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Dennis Back wrote: For those interested in this book, the title is Expiration Date and written by Tim Powers. It's a very good read, I might add. And Jim...I very much enjoyed your posts about the Menlo Lab and Ford's residence. Dennis ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
Yes, I know (some) British would disagree, but they're wrong. The part you quoted below about Swan stated that his filament had low resistance, thus needing heavy copper wires to supply it. That is the key reason that Swan and everyone but Edison completely failed to REALLY invent an incandescent light that didn't burn out right away. And not to mention that even if it somehow didn't burn out, it would still be useless for a home owner because of the high current needed to operate it. In the same Wikipedia article you quoted it said that Paul Israel concluded that the high resistance filament was the key invention, and why Edison's 22 predecessors failed. And later in the article is said that the US Patent Office thought about invalidating the patent, but concluded that the high resistance filament was a valid patent claim. So I repeat: What is the point of inventing non-working, non-practical light bulbs? None! They are all failures, not inventions. Edison himself made dozens of light bulbs that were utter failures. Such as platinum filaments, many of which required elaborate thermal cutout mechanisms inside the bulb to shut off power as the platinum reached melting temperature. Those weren't valid light bulbs any more than Swan's were. They were failed experiments, not real inventions. Edison would not have the nerve to claim a failed experiment was a valid invention, as some historians now do. Did any of you guys ever read all the detailed accounts of Edison working on the light bulb? As an electrical engineer, I was fascinated. Scientists of the day said that Edison's attempt to subdivide the light was against the laws of physics. They were thinking in terms of old-fashioned arc lights that used high current, and thus had to be wired in series. Only Edison understood that to succeed he needed high resistance lights, which allowed them to be wired in parallel. Imagine if there was no Edison, and most lights in your house or on your whole street had to be wired in series! Edison was so far beyond others in the field that there is no comparison. Jim On Jul 3, 2011, at 9:29 PM, Bill Burns wrote: On 7/3/2011 8:38 PM, Jim Nichol wrote: I strongly disagree. Yes, Google will tell you that many others worked on the light bulb. But those stories all conclude that none of them were practical. Edison's contribution was not only that he invented the power plant, but more importantly, he invented the first practical incandescent bulb. The British would disagree: In 1850 Swan began working on a light bulb using carbonized paper filaments in an evacuated glass bulb. By 1860 he was able to demonstrate a working device, and obtained a British patent covering a partial vacuum, carbon filament incandescent lamp. However, the lack of a good vacuum and an adequate electric source resulted in an inefficient bulb with a short lifetime. Fifteen years later, in 1875, Swan returned to consider the problem of the light bulb with the aid of a better vacuum and a carbonized thread as a filament. The most significant feature of Swan's improved lamp was that there was little residual oxygen in the vacuum tube to ignite the filament, thus allowing the filament to glow almost white-hot without catching fire. However, his filament had low resistance, thus needing heavy copper wires to supply it.[7] Swan received a British patent for his device in 1878, about a year before Thomas Edison. In America, Edison had been working on copies of the original light bulb patented by Swan, trying to make them more efficient. Though Swan had beaten him to this goal, Edison obtained patents in America for a fairly direct copy of the Swan light, and started an advertising campaign which claimed that he was the real inventor. Swan, who was less interested in making money from the invention, agreed that Edison could sell the lights in America while he retained the rights in Britain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Swan -- Bill Burns Long Island NY USA http://ftldesign.com ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
Hey what about taking the argument off line? You have already made this topic pretty boring. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
