Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
I do not find it boring, please continue. On 07/04/2011 12:16 AM, Daniel Melvin wrote: Hey what about taking the argument off line? You have already made this topic pretty boring. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
If the Ford Museum had simply said: Edison invented the first practical incandescent light bulb, I would have no problem. But it was the glee a couple of them took in saying: EDISON DID NOT INVENT THE LIGHT BULB that rubbed me the wrong way. Henry Ford would have fired both of them on the spot. Jim ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
I said that Edison invented the light bulb. I don't give credit to his predecessors for inventing the light bulb, because theirs didn't work. The Patent Office requires an invention to be useful before it can be patented. Non-working attempts don't count, and in this case were disallowed by the Patent Office. My main objection is that there seems to be a concerted movement today to trivialize Edison's work on the light bulb. But back in 1879 he was worshiped for it. His competitors didn't have a clue what was required for success. That's the main reason I was upset with the Ford Museum. I'm always worried that kids today aren't being taught about Edison, and if they are, they're told he was given too much credit. I've heard many people say that Edison didn't do ANYTHING worthwhile, or simply took credit for others' work. Jim On Jul 3, 2011, at 9:32 PM, The Farmers wrote: Now you are changing what you are saying. I agree he invented the first practical incandescent bulb, but he did not invent the light bulb as you claimed in the first posting. invent - come up with (an idea, plan, explanation, theory, or principle) after a mental effort - to be the first person to make or use (eg a machine, method etc) Edison did not come up with the idea, nor was he the first to make or use a light bulb. He perfected the light bulb and invented a version that was practical, and that's what the tour guide was explaining. -- Greg Farmer - Original Message - From: Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath I strongly disagree. Yes, Google will tell you that many others worked on the light bulb. But those stories all conclude that none of them were practical. Edison's contribution was not only that he invented the power plant, but more importantly, he invented the first practical incandescent bulb. If that's not inventing it, I don't know how else to define it. Sure, Edison started out doing some of the things his competitors tried, but rejected all of them because they didn't work. Maybe you had to be alive at the time to appreciate what an enormous breakthrough it was when Edison demonstrated his light bulb. No one cared about the others who failed to produce anything useful. (I'm talking about incandescent bulbs here... obviously the arc light was successful in its own field). Jim On Jul 3, 2011, at 7:39 PM, The Farmers wrote: Search Google for who invented the light bulb and you'll see the overwhelming consensus that Edison did not invent it. He improved earlier light bulb inventions and designed power plants to power his light bulb. The most important part of this was that he marketed the entire lighting system, including bulbs, generators, and electrical grids, that municipalities could buy, making it a commercial success. I'm glad to hear the museum has it right. I'd like to point out that a distant relative, Moses G. Farmer, invented an electric light 20 years before Edison, patented it, and in 1858 his house in Salem, Massachusetts was the first in the world lit by electric light. It was not a failure, it actually worked, but it just was not commercially viable. -- Greg Farmer - Original Message - From: Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath Oh, yes. The book is Expiration Date. Other comments about the museum: 1. I was quite unhappy that both a tour guide and a guy playing a young Tom Edison told us that Edison did NOT invent the light bulb, he only perfected it. I couldn't believe they were spreading this garbage to every visitor. Since when does it count when other people try to invent something and fail? I think the US Patent Office agrees with me on the light bulb. It's bad enough that they said that Edison didn't invent the light bulb. But they had to gall to have an actor playing Edison say it out loud. That is an unbelievably inaccurate portrayal of Edison. The actor did get in one jab, however. He pointed out that unlike the others who worked on the light bulb, his actually worked. 2. I'm unhappy that Edison is downplayed compared to how it used to be at the museum. The large phonograph display that was there in the 1970's wasn't there in 2009. The worst thing is that they renamed the complex The Henry Ford instead of using Ford's name for it: The Edison Institute. 3. I am very impressed that they have a Chrysler Turbine car there. As a kid, I saw one of the 50 produced that Chrysler was showing in a local shopping mall. Almost all of them were scrapped on purpose shortly thereafter. I just found out this week that Jay Leno has one (see video on YouTube). 4. I
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip
I think 2 days is more than enough. If you have more time check out the ford rouge works tour also Henry fords home tour. Actually driving around Detroit is interesting in itself looking at the sparkles of magnificence in the ruins. There are whole areas that are depopulated and some magnificent buildings. The fox theater is amazing... Also get yourself a coney dog, no trip to Detroit is complete w/o one -- Bill Taney Sent From My iPad On Jul 3, 2011, at 9:29 PM, Bill Burns bi...@ftldesign.com wrote: On 7/3/2011 8:38 PM, Jim Nichol wrote: I strongly disagree. Yes, Google will tell you that many others worked on the light bulb. But those stories all conclude that none of them were practical. Edison's contribution was not only that he invented the power plant, but more importantly, he invented the first practical incandescent bulb. The British would disagree: In 1850 Swan began working on a light bulb using carbonized paper filaments in an evacuated glass bulb. By 1860 he was able to demonstrate a working device, and obtained a British patent covering a partial vacuum, carbon filament incandescent lamp. However, the lack of a good vacuum and an adequate electric source resulted in an inefficient bulb with a short lifetime. Fifteen years later, in 1875, Swan returned to consider the problem of the light bulb with the aid of a better vacuum and a carbonized thread as a filament. The most significant feature of Swan's improved lamp was that there was little residual oxygen in the vacuum tube to ignite the filament, thus allowing the filament to glow almost white-hot without catching fire. However, his filament had low resistance, thus needing heavy copper wires to supply it.[7] Swan received a British patent for his device in 1878, about a year before Thomas Edison. In America, Edison had been working on copies of the original light bulb patented by Swan, trying to make them more efficient. Though Swan had beaten him to this goal, Edison obtained patents in America for a fairly direct copy of the Swan light, and started an advertising campaign which claimed that he was the real inventor. Swan, who was less interested in making money from the invention, agreed that Edison could sell the lights in America while he retained the rights in Britain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Swan -- Bill Burns Long Island NY USA http://ftldesign.com ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] auction fees
Hi Ger: Most auctions take about a 25 - 30% commission rate; however it also depends on how many phonongraphs you are planning to sell at the auction house. If you decide to sell just 1 or 10 the higher the commission rate. If you sell your whole collection like 50 or more then the commisson rate should be lower. I heard with some lucrative estates the rate may be as low as 20% or possibly lower. Rick -Original Message- From: ger55 ge...@comcast.net To: phono-l phono-l@oldcrank.org Cc: ger55 ge...@comcast.net Sent: Sun, Jul 3, 2011 6:52 pm Subject: [Phono-L] auction fees What is considered fair price for an auction house to take for auctioning honographs and related? 've asked this question twice but it never comes up on the daily digest. Thanks Ger __ hono-L mailing list ttp://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] auction fees
the auctions that I attend locally, charge the buyer 15%, the sales commission are negotiable based on the type merchandise, and the potential amounts realized. On smaller items (-1000) it is usually 30%. But it is totally negotiable. A whole collection valued at 500k may go for as little as 10% We know what the exhorbitant ebay fees are, but at least the buyer doesnt have to pay a commission. On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 8:22 AM, Richard Mazur phonofo...@aol.com wrote: Hi Ger: Most auctions take about a 25 - 30% commission rate; however it also depends on how many phonongraphs you are planning to sell at the auction house. If you decide to sell just 1 or 10 the higher the commission rate. If you sell your whole collection like 50 or more then the commisson rate should be lower. I heard with some lucrative estates the rate may be as low as 20% or possibly lower. Rick -Original Message- From: ger55 ge...@comcast.net To: phono-l phono-l@oldcrank.org Cc: ger55 ge...@comcast.net Sent: Sun, Jul 3, 2011 6:52 pm Subject: [Phono-L] auction fees What is considered fair price for an auction house to take for auctioning honographs and related? 've asked this question twice but it never comes up on the daily digest. Thanks Ger __ hono-L mailing list ttp://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
However, his filament had low resistance, thus needing heavy copper wires to supply it. Jim, You are an electrical engineer, how much copper would have been necessary to provide a working low resistance lighting system for all of England? My understanding is that to employ a low resistance series method of electrical distribution would have used a tremendous amount of copper therefore the Swan system could not have been used. If a system cannot be used even if it works in a laboratory what good is it except for a curiosity? Steve Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 21:29:26 -0400 From: bi...@ftldesign.com To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath On 7/3/2011 8:38 PM, Jim Nichol wrote: I strongly disagree. Yes, Google will tell you that many others worked on the light bulb. But those stories all conclude that none of them were practical. Edison's contribution was not only that he invented the power plant, but more importantly, he invented the first practical incandescent bulb. The British would disagree: In 1850 Swan began working on a light bulb using carbonized paper filaments in an evacuated glass bulb. By 1860 he was able to demonstrate a working device, and obtained a British patent covering a partial vacuum, carbon filament incandescent lamp. However, the lack of a good vacuum and an adequate electric source resulted in an inefficient bulb with a short lifetime. Fifteen years later, in 1875, Swan returned to consider the problem of the light bulb with the aid of a better vacuum and a carbonized thread as a filament. The most significant feature of Swan's improved lamp was that there was little residual oxygen in the vacuum tube to ignite the filament, thus allowing the filament to glow almost white-hot without catching fire. However, his filament had low resistance, thus needing heavy copper wires to supply it.[7] Swan received a British patent for his device in 1878, about a year before Thomas Edison. In America, Edison had been working on copies of the original light bulb patented by Swan, trying to make them more efficient. Though Swan had beaten him to this goal, Edison obtained patents in America for a fairly direct copy of the Swan light, and started an advertising campaign which claimed that he was the real inventor. Swan, who was less interested in making money from the invention, agreed that Edison could sell the lights in America while he retained the rights in Britain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Swan -- Bill Burns Long Island NY USA http://ftldesign.com ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
Revisionist history... It is not PC to admit that any DWG (dead white guys) did anything of merit -- Bill Taney Sent From My iPad On Jul 4, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net wrote: If the Ford Museum had simply said: Edison invented the first practical incandescent light bulb, I would have no problem. But it was the glee a couple of them took in saying: EDISON DID NOT INVENT THE LIGHT BULB that rubbed me the wrong way. Henry Ford would have fired both of them on the spot. Jim ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] VTLA wheel casters
I am trying to locate a set of four ball bearing type wheel casters for an early VTLA. The part is a brass cup with a pressed on shoulder. The small end of the cup slides up into the leg of the phonograph. In the bottom of one of the cups is the remnant of a ball bearing ring. The open end of the cup has a distinct crimp that I assume held the wheel. Obviously, the three parts I have are missing the wheel assembly. I checked with George and Ron to no avail... Thanks ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
It's kinda like those attempts at a phonograph such as recording audio on lamp black... Yeah, it had the basic theory but didn't work at the specific task that it conceptualized (I.E playing back sound. It's a fools errand to try and argue that anyone but Edison was the most significant contributor to the incandescent lighting of the world. It is also more than just one patent, Edison had many patents and inventions that contributed to the electrical lighting system. Bill -- Bill Taney Sent From My iPad On Jul 4, 2011, at 11:22 AM, Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net wrote: I said that Edison invented the light bulb. I don't give credit to his predecessors for inventing the light bulb, because theirs didn't work. The Patent Office requires an invention to be useful before it can be patented. Non-working attempts don't count, and in this case were disallowed by the Patent Office. My main objection is that there seems to be a concerted movement today to trivialize Edison's work on the light bulb. But back in 1879 he was worshiped for it. His competitors didn't have a clue what was required for success. That's the main reason I was upset with the Ford Museum. I'm always worried that kids today aren't being taught about Edison, and if they are, they're told he was given too much credit. I've heard many people say that Edison didn't do ANYTHING worthwhile, or simply took credit for others' work. Jim On Jul 3, 2011, at 9:32 PM, The Farmers wrote: Now you are changing what you are saying. I agree he invented the first practical incandescent bulb, but he did not invent the light bulb as you claimed in the first posting. invent - come up with (an idea, plan, explanation, theory, or principle) after a mental effort - to be the first person to make or use (eg a machine, method etc) Edison did not come up with the idea, nor was he the first to make or use a light bulb. He perfected the light bulb and invented a version that was practical, and that's what the tour guide was explaining. -- Greg Farmer - Original Message - From: Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath I strongly disagree. Yes, Google will tell you that many others worked on the light bulb. But those stories all conclude that none of them were practical. Edison's contribution was not only that he invented the power plant, but more importantly, he invented the first practical incandescent bulb. If that's not inventing it, I don't know how else to define it. Sure, Edison started out doing some of the things his competitors tried, but rejected all of them because they didn't work. Maybe you had to be alive at the time to appreciate what an enormous breakthrough it was when Edison demonstrated his light bulb. No one cared about the others who failed to produce anything useful. (I'm talking about incandescent bulbs here... obviously the arc light was successful in its own field). Jim On Jul 3, 2011, at 7:39 PM, The Farmers wrote: Search Google for who invented the light bulb and you'll see the overwhelming consensus that Edison did not invent it. He improved earlier light bulb inventions and designed power plants to power his light bulb. The most important part of this was that he marketed the entire lighting system, including bulbs, generators, and electrical grids, that municipalities could buy, making it a commercial success. I'm glad to hear the museum has it right. I'd like to point out that a distant relative, Moses G. Farmer, invented an electric light 20 years before Edison, patented it, and in 1858 his house in Salem, Massachusetts was the first in the world lit by electric light. It was not a failure, it actually worked, but it just was not commercially viable. -- Greg Farmer - Original Message - From: Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath Oh, yes. The book is Expiration Date. Other comments about the museum: 1. I was quite unhappy that both a tour guide and a guy playing a young Tom Edison told us that Edison did NOT invent the light bulb, he only perfected it. I couldn't believe they were spreading this garbage to every visitor. Since when does it count when other people try to invent something and fail? I think the US Patent Office agrees with me on the light bulb. It's bad enough that they said that Edison didn't invent the light bulb. But they had to gall to have an actor playing Edison say it out loud. That is an unbelievably inaccurate portrayal of Edison. The actor did get in one jab, however. He pointed out that unlike the others who worked on the light bulb, his actually worked. 2. I'm
Re: [Phono-L] VTLA wheel casters
Were they only used on the VTLA? I just parted out a VV-XIV and saved those casters and related parts. In fact, they are still attached to the legs. Let me know if that would be of any use to you. Dave --- On Mon, 7/4/11, jkship jks...@bresnan.net wrote: From: jkship jks...@bresnan.net Subject: [Phono-L] VTLA wheel casters To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Monday, July 4, 2011, 3:56 PM I am trying to locate a set of four ball bearing type wheel casters for an early VTLA. The part is a brass cup with a pressed on shoulder. The small end of the cup slides up into the leg of the phonograph. In the bottom of one of the cups is the remnant of a ball bearing ring. The open end of the cup has a distinct crimp that I assume held the wheel. Obviously, the three parts I have are missing the wheel assembly. I checked with George and Ron to no avail... Thanks ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] auction fees
Good point Al about ebay. Auction houses could make up to 45% on items ( 30% plus 15%) that make under $1000 There was an auction house near while I live (now defunct) where they would keep 50% commission on items you consign that total under $100. On top of the 50% the auction house also charged a 10% buyers premium. So the auction house makes more more on the item than the consignor does. Even though ebay has increased its fees they are still a viable alernative when selling items especially items that a easy to ship. -Original Message- From: Albert Menashe almena...@gmail.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2011 3:05 pm Subject: Re: [Phono-L] auction fees the auctions that I attend locally, charge the buyer 15%, the sales ommission are negotiable based on the type merchandise, and the potential mounts realized. On smaller items (-1000) it is usually 30%. But it is otally negotiable. A whole collection valued at 500k may go for as little s 10% We know what the exhorbitant ebay fees are, but at least the buyer oesnt have to pay a commission. On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 8:22 AM, Richard Mazur phonofo...@aol.com wrote: Hi Ger: Most auctions take about a 25 - 30% commission rate; however it also depends on how many phonongraphs you are planning to sell at the auction house. If you decide to sell just 1 or 10 the higher the commission rate. If you sell your whole collection like 50 or more then the commisson rate should be lower. I heard with some lucrative estates the rate may be as low as 20% or possibly lower. Rick -Original Message- From: ger55 ge...@comcast.net To: phono-l phono-l@oldcrank.org Cc: ger55 ge...@comcast.net Sent: Sun, Jul 3, 2011 6:52 pm Subject: [Phono-L] auction fees What is considered fair price for an auction house to take for auctioning honographs and related? 've asked this question twice but it never comes up on the daily digest. Thanks Ger __ hono-L mailing list ttp://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org __ hono-L mailing list ttp://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
I've heard many people say that Edison didn't do ANYTHING worthwhile, or simply took credit for others' work. That is interesting because Edison stopped using patents and started using trade secrets because of all of his work that was stolen. That is why we have so little written information on so many things he did especially when it comes to reproducers and their improvement. Today when most people have a working knowledge of electricity it is easy to minimize what Edison did. Before Edison there was gas lighting and in some of the older houses you can see the converted gas to electric system. Edison did learn from the failures of those before him but there is no question he invented the parallel method of electrical distribution which allowed electricity to come into use. Before Edison you had the series method and there was not enough copper available to make the mains large enough to have a practical system for just one large city, let along the whole country. Here are a few things Edison did develop: the parallel circuit, a durable light bulb, an improved dynamo, the u nderground conductor network, the devices for maintaining constant voltage, safety fuses and insulating materials, and light sockets with on-off switches. Before Edison could make his millions, every one of these elements had to be invented and then, through careful trial and error, developed into practical, reproducible components. The first public demonstration of the Thomas Edison's incandescent lighting system was in December 1879, when the Menlo Park laboratory complex was electrically lighted. Edison spent the next several years creating the electric industry. If creating is not inventing then what is? After all that work he did he got kicked out of the company that without him would not have existed so even back then he had recognition problems. Steve From: jnic...@fuse.net Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 23:53:35 -0400 To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath Yes, I know (some) British would disagree, but they're wrong. The part you quoted below about Swan stated that his filament had low resistance, thus needing heavy copper wires to supply it. That is the key reason that Swan and everyone but Edison completely failed to REALLY invent an incandescent light that didn't burn out right away. And not to mention that even if it somehow didn't burn out, it would still be useless for a home owner because of the high current needed to operate it. In the same Wikipedia article you quoted it said that Paul Israel concluded that the high resistance filament was the key invention, and why Edison's 22 predecessors failed. And later in the article is said that the US Patent Office thought about invalidating the patent, but concluded that the high resistance filament was a valid patent claim. So I repeat: What is the point of inventing non-working, non-practical light bulbs? None! They are all failures, not inventions. Edison himself made dozens of light bulbs that were utter failures. Such as platinum filaments, many of which required elaborate thermal cutout mechanisms inside the bulb to shut off power as the platinum reached melting temperature. Those weren't valid light bulbs any more than Swan's were. They were failed experiments, not real inventions. Edison would not have the nerve to claim a failed experiment was a valid invention, as some historians now do. Did any of you guys ever read all the detailed accounts of Edison working on the light bulb? As an electrical engineer, I was fascinated. Scientists of the day said that Edison's attempt to subdivide the light was against the laws of physics. They were thinking in terms of old-fashioned arc lights that used high current, and thus had to be wired in series. Only Edison understood that to succeed he needed high resistance lights, which allowed them to be wired in parallel. Imagine if there was no Edison, and most lights in your house or on your whole street had to be wired in series! Edison was so far beyond others in the field that there is no comparison. Jim On Jul 3, 2011, at 9:29 PM, Bill Burns wrote: On 7/3/2011 8:38 PM, Jim Nichol wrote: I strongly disagree. Yes, Google will tell you that many others worked on the light bulb. But those stories all conclude that none of them were practical. Edison's contribution was not only that he invented the power plant, but more importantly, he invented the first practical incandescent bulb. The British would disagree: In 1850 Swan began working on a light bulb using carbonized paper filaments in an evacuated glass bulb. By 1860 he was able to demonstrate a working device, and obtained a British patent covering a partial vacuum, carbon filament incandescent lamp. However, the lack of a good vacuum and an adequate electric source resulted in an inefficient bulb
[Phono-L] Recreating Edison's Inventions... very educational... was Dearborn...
From tinfoil phonographs to light bulbs, Edison made things that were practical and worked. If one does not realize the difficulty of Edison's inventions then one has not attempted to duplicate them. Has anyone ever played with a reproduction Bell telephone? Mine required shouting so loud that the person in the next room could hear me better through the wall than through the Bell telephone. It was Edison's carbon microphone that made it practical. As a retired Physicist and Physics teacher, I remember fondly of trying to make a tinfoil phonograph using the plans from the Edison Institute Ford Museum. Just the machine tool technology is impressive for today. Has anyone else on this list made a mandrel shaft and feedscrew for a Home, Triumph, or M class? I spent weeks last year doing just that. The 100 thread per inch buttress thread of the feedscrew is not easy to do. The tapered brass mandrel is an odd taper and I had a number of failures before I got one that was perfect. Only a few thousandths of an inch of slop in your taper attac hment and you are in trouble. My reproduction of the original tinfoil machine has never been completed because I became frustrated with my recording and playback styli. Just this week I am seeking the counsel of the most knowledgeable tinfoil expert in the world. When it comes to electric lighting, I have a San Francisco Market Street arc lamp in my collection. It draws 20 Amps at 80 Volts when struck, that's 1,600 Watts, and the carbon rods quickly burn out. Many years ago when teaching electrical circuits I had a setup to place a filament (a term coined by Edison as I recall) inside a bell jar that could be evacuated. Trust me, getting anything to last at incandescent temperatures is not easy, even today with all the knowledge we have. My students then had never given thought to the simple and ubiquitous light bulb. Usually they were enthralled by the warm glow coming from the bell jar. Many phonographic items were invented by Edison but he never got credit for them. Remember when the 'elliptical stylus' was introduced to play stereo LPs and was hailed as a great leap forward? What do you think the contact area of a 1902 Model C sapphire stylus is? Remember the switch from sapphire to diamond styli in the 1960s as playback equipment improved? That too was hailed. Linear tracking? Microgrooves? All the best Independence Day wishes to everyone, Al The price of Freedom is always paid in blood. Thank a veteran today. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
That's the history of innovation, no one EVER invents something in a vacuum, it is all based on someone else's work. Altair and many others tried to come up with computers that were functional personal computers, the Apple ][ was the first practical home computer system, thus Altair is forgotten and Apple is the largest technology company in the world. Same as the OTTO-cycle engine, many other engines were attempted but It was the first practical gas engine and thus Nikolas Otto gets the credit because his system worked. Bill -- Bill Taney Sent From My iPad On Jul 4, 2011, at 2:17 PM, Steven Medved steve_nor...@msn.com wrote: However, his filament had low resistance, thus needing heavy copper wires to supply it. Jim, You are an electrical engineer, how much copper would have been necessary to provide a working low resistance lighting system for all of England? My understanding is that to employ a low resistance series method of electrical distribution would have used a tremendous amount of copper therefore the Swan system could not have been used. If a system cannot be used even if it works in a laboratory what good is it except for a curiosity? Steve Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 21:29:26 -0400 From: bi...@ftldesign.com To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath On 7/3/2011 8:38 PM, Jim Nichol wrote: I strongly disagree. Yes, Google will tell you that many others worked on the light bulb. But those stories all conclude that none of them were practical. Edison's contribution was not only that he invented the power plant, but more importantly, he invented the first practical incandescent bulb. The British would disagree: In 1850 Swan began working on a light bulb using carbonized paper filaments in an evacuated glass bulb. By 1860 he was able to demonstrate a working device, and obtained a British patent covering a partial vacuum, carbon filament incandescent lamp. However, the lack of a good vacuum and an adequate electric source resulted in an inefficient bulb with a short lifetime. Fifteen years later, in 1875, Swan returned to consider the problem of the light bulb with the aid of a better vacuum and a carbonized thread as a filament. The most significant feature of Swan's improved lamp was that there was little residual oxygen in the vacuum tube to ignite the filament, thus allowing the filament to glow almost white-hot without catching fire. However, his filament had low resistance, thus needing heavy copper wires to supply it.[7] Swan received a British patent for his device in 1878, about a year before Thomas Edison. In America, Edison had been working on copies of the original light bulb patented by Swan, trying to make them more efficient. Though Swan had beaten him to this goal, Edison obtained patents in America for a fairly direct copy of the Swan light, and started an advertising campaign which claimed that he was the real inventor. Swan, who was less interested in making money from the invention, agreed that Edison could sell the lights in America while he retained the rights in Britain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Swan -- Bill Burns Long Island NY USA http://ftldesign.com ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] My Dearborn trip
Thanks for all the replies related to what to see at Greenfield Village. I never thought this question would spark such a spirited debate. I just wanted to make the most of our Model A Ford trip to Dearborn. It should be a great trip and hopefully we'll find some treasures along the way. Ken Brekke Seeing the countryside at 40 mph in our trusty ol' Ford. Now let's not start a debate thread on how fast a Model A should be able to go. I just prefer to take it easy on all the backroads. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] VTLA wheel casters
Dave, I am sort of new at this and ignorant as well. Here is a couple of JPegs of what the housing looks like. - Original Message - From: David Dazer dda...@sbcglobal.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] VTLA wheel casters Were they only used on the VTLA? I just parted out a VV-XIV and saved those casters and related parts. In fact, they are still attached to the legs. Let me know if that would be of any use to you. Dave --- On Mon, 7/4/11, jkship jks...@bresnan.net wrote: From: jkship jks...@bresnan.net Subject: [Phono-L] VTLA wheel casters To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Monday, July 4, 2011, 3:56 PM I am trying to locate a set of four ball bearing type wheel casters for an early VTLA. The part is a brass cup with a pressed on shoulder. The small end of the cup slides up into the leg of the phonograph. In the bottom of one of the cups is the remnant of a ball bearing ring. The open end of the cup has a distinct crimp that I assume held the wheel. Obviously, the three parts I have are missing the wheel assembly. I checked with George and Ron to no avail... Thanks ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3743 - Release Date: 07/04/11 00:35:00 -- ATTACHMENT -- **An Attachment Was Scrubbed** Name: IMG_3137.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 5492 bytes URL: http://oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/attachments/20110704/29c2a961/attachment.jpe -- ATTACHMENT -- **An Attachment Was Scrubbed** Name: IMG_3138.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 6780 bytes URL: http://oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/attachments/20110704/29c2a961/attachment-0001.jpe ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Recreating Edison's Inventions... very educational... was Dearborn...
I like the yoke assembly of the Model O reproducer with the tiny -160 screw that goes into the stylus bar and holds on the washer with .019 arms that no one makes today because it is too complicated. 100 years later one would assume those items would be easily made. Steve From: clockworkh...@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2011 18:31:45 -0400 To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: [Phono-L] Recreating Edison's Inventions... very educational... was Dearborn... From tinfoil phonographs to light bulbs, Edison made things that were practical and worked. If one does not realize the difficulty of Edison's inventions then one has not attempted to duplicate them. Has anyone ever played with a reproduction Bell telephone? Mine required shouting so loud that the person in the next room could hear me better through the wall than through the Bell telephone. It was Edison's carbon microphone that made it practical. As a retired Physicist and Physics teacher, I remember fondly of trying to make a tinfoil phonograph using the plans from the Edison Institute Ford Museum. Just the machine tool technology is impressive for today. Has anyone else on this list made a mandrel shaft and feedscrew for a Home, Triumph, or M class? I spent weeks last year doing just that. The 100 thread per inch buttress thread of the feedscrew is not easy to do. The tapered brass mandrel is an odd taper and I had a number of failures before I got one that was perfect. Only a few thousandths of an inch of slop in your taper attac hment and you are in trouble. My reproduction of the original tinfoil machine has never been completed because I became frustrated with my recording and playback styli. Just this week I am seeking the counsel of the most knowledgeable tinfoil expert in the world. When it comes to electric lighting, I have a San Francisco Market Street arc lamp in my collection. It draws 20 Amps at 80 Volts when struck, that's 1,600 Watts, and the carbon rods quickly burn out. Many years ago when teaching electrical circuits I had a setup to place a filament (a term coined by Edison as I recall) inside a bell jar that could be evacuated. Trust me, getting anything to last at incandescent temperatures is not easy, even today with all the knowledge we have. My students then had never given thought to the simple and ubiquitous light bulb. Usually they were enthralled by the warm glow coming from the bell jar. Many phonographic items were invented by Edison but he never got credit for them. Remember when the 'elliptical stylus' was introduced to play stereo LPs and was hailed as a great leap forward? What do you think the contact area of a 1902 Model C sapphire stylus is? Remember the switch from sapphire to diamond styli in the 1960s as playback equipment improved? That too was hailed. Linear tracking? Microgrooves? All the best Independence Day wishes to everyone, Al The price of Freedom is always paid in blood. Thank a veteran today. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] VTLA wheel casters
Van Dykes Restorers has a large selection of casters. You may find something very close there. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of jkship Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 3:56 PM To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: [Phono-L] VTLA wheel casters I am trying to locate a set of four ball bearing type wheel casters for an early VTLA. The part is a brass cup with a pressed on shoulder. The small end of the cup slides up into the leg of the phonograph. In the bottom of one of the cups is the remnant of a ball bearing ring. The open end of the cup has a distinct crimp that I assume held the wheel. Obviously, the three parts I have are missing the wheel assembly. I checked with George and Ron to no avail... Thanks ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Edison feedscrew on mandrel shaft... Triumph, M, Home...
G'day Mike: Very interesting but the M feedscrew I had to duplicate was examined under an optical comparator and there was no doubt the thread of the original 1892 part was a 45º buttress thread. The depth of the thread is only 0.007 so the lathe setup is crucial. I will have to check the later threads but the one I did had a buttress thread and the halfnut was likewise set. It would make sense to have a buttress thread at 100 threads per inch with the 'strong' direction pushing the halfnut and carriage to the right. At 100 tpi the thread height for any thread should be uncomfortably small. On yours was the thread a 'normal' V thread that was not directional? What was the depth of thread? It is good to see you on the list. I hope all is well with you. My wife and I have a planned vacation down under. Off list tell me what sights the locals would recommend? Regards, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Edison feedscrew on mandrel shaft... Triumph, M, Home...
I must agree. I had to have a feedscrew rethreaded some years ago, and the machinist told me he had to use an old lathe of his dad's to make the buttress thread at the correct pitch. Can of worms hereby opened. John Robles --- On Mon, 7/4/11, clockworkh...@aol.com clockworkh...@aol.com wrote: From: clockworkh...@aol.com clockworkh...@aol.com Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Edison feedscrew on mandrel shaft... Triumph, M, Home... To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Monday, July 4, 2011, 7:03 PM G'day Mike: Very interesting but the M feedscrew I had to duplicate was examined under an optical comparator and there was no doubt the thread of the original 1892 part was a 45º buttress thread. The depth of the thread is only 0.007 so the lathe setup is crucial. I will have to check the later threads but the one I did had a buttress thread and the halfnut was likewise set. It would make sense to have a buttress thread at 100 threads per inch with the 'strong' direction pushing the halfnut and carriage to the right. At 100 tpi the thread height for any thread should be uncomfortably small. On yours was the thread a 'normal' V thread that was not directional? What was the depth of thread? It is good to see you on the list. I hope all is well with you. My wife and I have a planned vacation down under. Off list tell me what sights the locals would recommend? Regards, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] VTLA wheel casters
Ron, Thanks for the lead. I will Google them tomorrow and see what I can find. - Original Message - From: Ron L'Herault lhera...@bu.edu To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] VTLA wheel casters Van Dykes Restorers has a large selection of casters. You may find something very close there. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of jkship Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 3:56 PM To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: [Phono-L] VTLA wheel casters I am trying to locate a set of four ball bearing type wheel casters for an early VTLA. The part is a brass cup with a pressed on shoulder. The small end of the cup slides up into the leg of the phonograph. In the bottom of one of the cups is the remnant of a ball bearing ring. The open end of the cup has a distinct crimp that I assume held the wheel. Obviously, the three parts I have are missing the wheel assembly. I checked with George and Ron to no avail... Thanks ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3744 - Release Date: 07/04/11 12:35:00 ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Edison feedscrew on mandrel shaft... Triumph, M, Home...
Something tells me you will find both depending on vintage. On 07/04/2011 10:08 PM, john robles wrote: I must agree. I had to have a feedscrew rethreaded some years ago, and the machinist told me he had to use an old lathe of his dad's to make the buttress thread at the correct pitch. Can of worms hereby opened. John Robles --- On Mon, 7/4/11, clockworkh...@aol.comclockworkh...@aol.com wrote: From: clockworkh...@aol.comclockworkh...@aol.com Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Edison feedscrew on mandrel shaft... Triumph, M, Home... To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Monday, July 4, 2011, 7:03 PM G'day Mike: Very interesting but the M feedscrew I had to duplicate was examined under an optical comparator and there was no doubt the thread of the original 1892 part was a 45º buttress thread. The depth of the thread is only 0.007 so the lathe setup is crucial. I will have to check the later threads but the one I did had a buttress thread and the halfnut was likewise set. It would make sense to have a buttress thread at 100 threads per inch with the 'strong' direction pushing the halfnut and carriage to the right. At 100 tpi the thread height for any thread should be uncomfortably small. On yours was the thread a 'normal' V thread that was not directional? What was the depth of thread? It is good to see you on the list. I hope all is well with you. My wife and I have a planned vacation down under. Off list tell me what sights the locals would recommend? Regards, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Edison
Having just made a batch of half nuts for Homes and Triumphs I respectfully submit that Home and Triumph leadscrews do not have a buttress thread, but are 60 degree V threads. Took a bit of research as there are contemporary reports that a buttress thread was used, but close inspection under a microscope clearly show the V form. If anyone is in need of a quality 3/16 or 1/4 half nut in steel with correct size machine screws, they are available at $20 and $24 respectively, including postage. Hope I haven't stirred up the proverbial hornet's nest. Mike Tucker (mtuc...@exemail.com.au) ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
