Re: [Phono-L] 1904 Edison Triumph with Automatic Reproducer
I stand corrected, the seller sent me an email telling me that at the end of the Model As Edison just threw any and all parts together to clear the stocks! I guess he did not know that the Model As went for some time after the machine he has. The Model A ended around 51000. Of special interest is that the machine in question appeared sometime back on eBay in the raised panel cabinet with a normal arm carrying a Model C Reproducer and no adjustment arm. So, this seller put an 'New Style' cabinet on the works and attached an earlier arm with clips. The machine then became rare. Or, maybe I just don't know anything... ;-) Al HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] 1904 Edison Triumph with Automatic Reproducer
Dear Al, The triumph cost $50 when $5 a day for wages was a good salary. Who would pay for and why would Edison sell in 1904 a machine with an outdated, poorly sounding reproducer. Also why would he have an automatic from 1898 and a carriage from early 1902 (or earlier) on a machine from after 1904? Equally curious is why more of these are not existing. Edison obviously was not organized and you see many examples of later machines and reproducers with earlier parts, but Edison's goal was to sell records and the early thin weight automatic sounds so bad on the molded records that no one would enjoy gold molded records with it. Edison was so interested in selling records that in 1919 he offered kits to upgrade the Standard, Home, and Triump to the diamond B reproducer. I have seen a home that was modified with one of the kits, the 2/4 decal was removed. Around 1900 Edison almost doubled the weight of the automatic. It is true that Edison never wasted and used up all the obsolete parts, but he did this in an efficient manner. For example in 1901 he introduced the early B reproducer and in 1902 he introduced the Model C reproducer. As you suggested rather than waste he continued to offer the Model B on the Gem sans arm and the later (serial number 50,000 to 90,000) Model B reproducer is found without the word reproducer as he used the early B tops made for the arm. I also found it extremely interesting that Mr. Triumph, Terry Baer essentially said the same thing as you did. I purchased a suitcase home that had the early two clip carriage. This carriage had the adjuster for the arm machined off and it had the centering pin and the Speaker Clamp Screw part #2531 installed. It was done so well if I had not noted the four screw holes for the clips I would not have noticed a modification was done. So if Edison found the 1902 (or earlier) carriage after June 1904 he could have updated the carriage and installed a model C so he could sell records to the owner. I believe had the seller had known there were three types of automatic made, the length of production of the A, and that you can approximate the date of phonographs and reproducers by the serial number he could have produced a more convincing machine. Best regards, Steve I stand corrected, the seller sent me an email telling me that at the end of the Model As Edison just threw any and all parts together to clear the stocks! I guess he did not know that the Model As went for some time after the machine he has. The Model A ended around 51000. Of special interest is that the machine in question appeared sometime back on eBay in the raised panel cabinet with a normal arm carrying a Model C Reproducer and no adjustment arm. So, this seller put an 'New Style' cabinet on the works and attached an earlier arm with clips. The machine then became rare. Or, maybe I just don't know anything... ;-) Al HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] 1904 Edison Triumph with Automatic Reproducer
Steve, I am not sure that you picked up on Al's sarcasm about the seller's reply. Jim Nichol On Jan 1, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Steven Medved wrote: Dear Al, The triumph cost $50 when $5 a day for wages was a good salary. Who would pay for and why would Edison sell in 1904 a machine with an outdated, poorly sounding reproducer. Also why would he have an automatic from 1898 and a carriage from early 1902 (or earlier) on a machine from after 1904? Equally curious is why more of these are not existing. Edison obviously was not organized and you see many examples of later machines and reproducers with earlier parts, but Edison's goal was to sell records and the early thin weight automatic sounds so bad on the molded records that no one would enjoy gold molded records with it. Edison was so interested in selling records that in 1919 he offered kits to upgrade the Standard, Home, and Triump to the diamond B reproducer. I have seen a home that was modified with one of the kits, the 2/4 decal was removed. Around 1900 Edison almost doubled the weight of the automatic. It is true that Edison never wasted and used up all the obsolete parts, but he did this in an efficient manner. For example in 1901 he introduced the early B reproducer and in 1902 he introduced the Model C reproducer. As you suggested rather than waste he continued to offer the Model B on the Gem sans arm and the later (serial number 50,000 to 90,000) Model B reproducer is found without the word reproducer as he used the early B tops made for the arm. I also found it extremely interesting that Mr. Triumph, Terry Baer essentially said the same thing as you did. I purchased a suitcase home that had the early two clip carriage. This carriage had the adjuster for the arm machined off and it had the centering pin and the Speaker Clamp Screw part #2531 installed. It was done so well if I had not noted the four screw holes for the clips I would not have noticed a modification was done. So if Edison found the 1902 (or earlier) carriage after June 1904 he could have updated the carriage and installed a model C so he could sell records to the owner. I believe had the seller had known there were three types of automatic made, the length of production of the A, and that you can approximate the date of phonographs and reproducers by the serial number he could have produced a more convincing machine. Best regards, Steve I stand corrected, the seller sent me an email telling me that at the end of the Model As Edison just threw any and all parts together to clear the stocks! I guess he did not know that the Model As went for some time after the machine he has. The Model A ended around 51000. Of special interest is that the machine in question appeared sometime back on eBay in the raised panel cabinet with a normal arm carrying a Model C Reproducer and no adjustment arm. So, this seller put an 'New Style' cabinet on the works and attached an earlier arm with clips. The machine then became rare. Or, maybe I just don't know anything... ;-) Al HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] 1904 Edison Triumph with Automatic Reproducer
The machine is TOO late for an Automatic. Only the first month or so of production had them and serial numbers run from about 29,000 to 30,000. I've only seen a handful of such machines. The early cases had sharper corners and thinner walls. This example with SN 46,315 appears to be in the correct late case but has had an earlier carriage added at some point. Terry P. Baer St. Louis Email: t...@edisontriumph.com -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Steven Medved Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 4:37 PM To: Phono-l; phonolist Subject: [Phono-L] 1904 Edison triumph A with automatic reproducer http://cgi.ebay.com/Edison-Triumph-Model-A-Cylinder-Machine- RARE_W0QQitemZ170426053885 ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org - This message was sent using CAT2 Online Internet Services . web-based email system . http://www.cat2.com . ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] 1904 Edison Triumph with Automatic Reproducer
That seller is almost always dishonest or at least misleading. John Robles --Original Message-- From: t...@edisontriumph.com Sender: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org To: phono-l@oldcrank.org ReplyTo: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] 1904 Edison Triumph with Automatic Reproducer Sent: Dec 30, 2009 5:26 PM The machine is TOO late for an Automatic. Only the first month or so of production had them and serial numbers run from about 29,000 to 30,000. I've only seen a handful of such machines. The early cases had sharper corners and thinner walls. This example with SN 46,315 appears to be in the correct late case but has had an earlier carriage added at some point. Terry P. Baer St. Louis Email: t...@edisontriumph.com -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Steven Medved Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 4:37 PM To: Phono-l; phonolist Subject: [Phono-L] 1904 Edison triumph A with automatic reproducer http://cgi.ebay.com/Edison-Triumph-Model-A-Cylinder-Machine- RARE_W0QQitemZ170426053885 ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org - This message was sent using CAT2 Online Internet Services . web-based email system . http://www.cat2.com . ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] 1904 Edison Triumph with Automatic Reproducer
Hello Terry, I appreciate to no end the information you provided below, it helps me so much. Frow's book says the Triumph A appeared in the spring of 1901. Do you have any idea the months when 29,000 to 30,000 would have been made? The last automatic has a hinge block and limit loop, 211558 is the highest serial number I have seen and for many years I have been trying to get an estimate of the month when the automatic last appeared so I can get an idea of the month in 1901 the automatic was replaced by the early B with the arm. The early B did not have a notch for the centering pin until around serial number 17,000 so I assume that 17,000 was Feb 1902. I have seen standards, homes, and triumphs with the carriage with the clips with the early B with no notch. Thanks, Steve The machine is TOO late for an Automatic. Only the first month or so of production had them and serial numbers run from about 29,000 to 30,000. I've only seen a handful of such machines. The early cases had sharper corners and thinner walls. This example with SN 46,315 appears to be in the correct late case but has had an earlier carriage added at some point. Terry P. Baer St. Louis Email: t...@edisontriumph.com -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Steven Medved Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 4:37 PM To: Phono-l; phonolist Subject: [Phono-L] 1904 Edison triumph A with automatic reproducer http://cgi.ebay.com/Edison-Triumph-Model-A-Cylinder-Machine- RARE_W0QQitemZ170426053885 ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org - This message was sent using CAT2 Online Internet Services . web-based email system . http://www.cat2.com . ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] 1904 Edison Triumph with Automatic Reproducer
Anytime I see (RARE), Rare, or L@@K in an eBay title or description I start to wonder what is really wrong with it. Steven Medved wrote: Hello Terry, I appreciate to no end the information you provided below, it helps me so much. Frow's book says the Triumph A appeared in the spring of 1901. Do you have any idea the months when 29,000 to 30,000 would have been made? The last automatic has a hinge block and limit loop, 211558 is the highest serial number I have seen and for many years I have been trying to get an estimate of the month when the automatic last appeared so I can get an idea of the month in 1901 the automatic was replaced by the early B with the arm. The early B did not have a notch for the centering pin until around serial number 17,000 so I assume that 17,000 was Feb 1902. I have seen standards, homes, and triumphs with the carriage with the clips with the early B with no notch. Thanks, Steve ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] 1904 Edison Triumph with Automatic Reproducer
I have alerted this seller to many of his inaccurate conglomerations of Edison parts. Never has he responded or put the corrections into the listing. The Triumph machines immediately adopted the Model C reproducer when it first came out in 1902. Only a small number of machines had the reproducer clips and by serial number 31000 the carriage arm had the alignment pin and the single Speaker Clamp Screw part #2531. Regards to all, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
