Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
I do not find it boring, please continue. On 07/04/2011 12:16 AM, Daniel Melvin wrote: Hey what about taking the argument off line? You have already made this topic pretty boring. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
If the Ford Museum had simply said: Edison invented the first practical incandescent light bulb, I would have no problem. But it was the glee a couple of them took in saying: EDISON DID NOT INVENT THE LIGHT BULB that rubbed me the wrong way. Henry Ford would have fired both of them on the spot. Jim ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
I said that Edison invented the light bulb. I don't give credit to his predecessors for inventing the light bulb, because theirs didn't work. The Patent Office requires an invention to be useful before it can be patented. Non-working attempts don't count, and in this case were disallowed by the Patent Office. My main objection is that there seems to be a concerted movement today to trivialize Edison's work on the light bulb. But back in 1879 he was worshiped for it. His competitors didn't have a clue what was required for success. That's the main reason I was upset with the Ford Museum. I'm always worried that kids today aren't being taught about Edison, and if they are, they're told he was given too much credit. I've heard many people say that Edison didn't do ANYTHING worthwhile, or simply took credit for others' work. Jim On Jul 3, 2011, at 9:32 PM, The Farmers wrote: Now you are changing what you are saying. I agree he invented the first practical incandescent bulb, but he did not invent the light bulb as you claimed in the first posting. invent - come up with (an idea, plan, explanation, theory, or principle) after a mental effort - to be the first person to make or use (eg a machine, method etc) Edison did not come up with the idea, nor was he the first to make or use a light bulb. He perfected the light bulb and invented a version that was practical, and that's what the tour guide was explaining. -- Greg Farmer - Original Message - From: Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath I strongly disagree. Yes, Google will tell you that many others worked on the light bulb. But those stories all conclude that none of them were practical. Edison's contribution was not only that he invented the power plant, but more importantly, he invented the first practical incandescent bulb. If that's not inventing it, I don't know how else to define it. Sure, Edison started out doing some of the things his competitors tried, but rejected all of them because they didn't work. Maybe you had to be alive at the time to appreciate what an enormous breakthrough it was when Edison demonstrated his light bulb. No one cared about the others who failed to produce anything useful. (I'm talking about incandescent bulbs here... obviously the arc light was successful in its own field). Jim On Jul 3, 2011, at 7:39 PM, The Farmers wrote: Search Google for who invented the light bulb and you'll see the overwhelming consensus that Edison did not invent it. He improved earlier light bulb inventions and designed power plants to power his light bulb. The most important part of this was that he marketed the entire lighting system, including bulbs, generators, and electrical grids, that municipalities could buy, making it a commercial success. I'm glad to hear the museum has it right. I'd like to point out that a distant relative, Moses G. Farmer, invented an electric light 20 years before Edison, patented it, and in 1858 his house in Salem, Massachusetts was the first in the world lit by electric light. It was not a failure, it actually worked, but it just was not commercially viable. -- Greg Farmer - Original Message - From: Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath Oh, yes. The book is Expiration Date. Other comments about the museum: 1. I was quite unhappy that both a tour guide and a guy playing a young Tom Edison told us that Edison did NOT invent the light bulb, he only perfected it. I couldn't believe they were spreading this garbage to every visitor. Since when does it count when other people try to invent something and fail? I think the US Patent Office agrees with me on the light bulb. It's bad enough that they said that Edison didn't invent the light bulb. But they had to gall to have an actor playing Edison say it out loud. That is an unbelievably inaccurate portrayal of Edison. The actor did get in one jab, however. He pointed out that unlike the others who worked on the light bulb, his actually worked. 2. I'm unhappy that Edison is downplayed compared to how it used to be at the museum. The large phonograph display that was there in the 1970's wasn't there in 2009. The worst thing is that they renamed the complex The Henry Ford instead of using Ford's name for it: The Edison Institute. 3. I am very impressed that they have a Chrysler Turbine car there. As a kid, I saw one of the 50 produced that Chrysler was showing in a local shopping mall. Almost all of them were scrapped on purpose shortly thereafter. I just found out this week that Jay Leno has one (see video on YouTube). 4. I
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
However, his filament had low resistance, thus needing heavy copper wires to supply it. Jim, You are an electrical engineer, how much copper would have been necessary to provide a working low resistance lighting system for all of England? My understanding is that to employ a low resistance series method of electrical distribution would have used a tremendous amount of copper therefore the Swan system could not have been used. If a system cannot be used even if it works in a laboratory what good is it except for a curiosity? Steve Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 21:29:26 -0400 From: bi...@ftldesign.com To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath On 7/3/2011 8:38 PM, Jim Nichol wrote: I strongly disagree. Yes, Google will tell you that many others worked on the light bulb. But those stories all conclude that none of them were practical. Edison's contribution was not only that he invented the power plant, but more importantly, he invented the first practical incandescent bulb. The British would disagree: In 1850 Swan began working on a light bulb using carbonized paper filaments in an evacuated glass bulb. By 1860 he was able to demonstrate a working device, and obtained a British patent covering a partial vacuum, carbon filament incandescent lamp. However, the lack of a good vacuum and an adequate electric source resulted in an inefficient bulb with a short lifetime. Fifteen years later, in 1875, Swan returned to consider the problem of the light bulb with the aid of a better vacuum and a carbonized thread as a filament. The most significant feature of Swan's improved lamp was that there was little residual oxygen in the vacuum tube to ignite the filament, thus allowing the filament to glow almost white-hot without catching fire. However, his filament had low resistance, thus needing heavy copper wires to supply it.[7] Swan received a British patent for his device in 1878, about a year before Thomas Edison. In America, Edison had been working on copies of the original light bulb patented by Swan, trying to make them more efficient. Though Swan had beaten him to this goal, Edison obtained patents in America for a fairly direct copy of the Swan light, and started an advertising campaign which claimed that he was the real inventor. Swan, who was less interested in making money from the invention, agreed that Edison could sell the lights in America while he retained the rights in Britain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Swan -- Bill Burns Long Island NY USA http://ftldesign.com ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
Revisionist history... It is not PC to admit that any DWG (dead white guys) did anything of merit -- Bill Taney Sent From My iPad On Jul 4, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net wrote: If the Ford Museum had simply said: Edison invented the first practical incandescent light bulb, I would have no problem. But it was the glee a couple of them took in saying: EDISON DID NOT INVENT THE LIGHT BULB that rubbed me the wrong way. Henry Ford would have fired both of them on the spot. Jim ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
It's kinda like those attempts at a phonograph such as recording audio on lamp black... Yeah, it had the basic theory but didn't work at the specific task that it conceptualized (I.E playing back sound. It's a fools errand to try and argue that anyone but Edison was the most significant contributor to the incandescent lighting of the world. It is also more than just one patent, Edison had many patents and inventions that contributed to the electrical lighting system. Bill -- Bill Taney Sent From My iPad On Jul 4, 2011, at 11:22 AM, Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net wrote: I said that Edison invented the light bulb. I don't give credit to his predecessors for inventing the light bulb, because theirs didn't work. The Patent Office requires an invention to be useful before it can be patented. Non-working attempts don't count, and in this case were disallowed by the Patent Office. My main objection is that there seems to be a concerted movement today to trivialize Edison's work on the light bulb. But back in 1879 he was worshiped for it. His competitors didn't have a clue what was required for success. That's the main reason I was upset with the Ford Museum. I'm always worried that kids today aren't being taught about Edison, and if they are, they're told he was given too much credit. I've heard many people say that Edison didn't do ANYTHING worthwhile, or simply took credit for others' work. Jim On Jul 3, 2011, at 9:32 PM, The Farmers wrote: Now you are changing what you are saying. I agree he invented the first practical incandescent bulb, but he did not invent the light bulb as you claimed in the first posting. invent - come up with (an idea, plan, explanation, theory, or principle) after a mental effort - to be the first person to make or use (eg a machine, method etc) Edison did not come up with the idea, nor was he the first to make or use a light bulb. He perfected the light bulb and invented a version that was practical, and that's what the tour guide was explaining. -- Greg Farmer - Original Message - From: Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath I strongly disagree. Yes, Google will tell you that many others worked on the light bulb. But those stories all conclude that none of them were practical. Edison's contribution was not only that he invented the power plant, but more importantly, he invented the first practical incandescent bulb. If that's not inventing it, I don't know how else to define it. Sure, Edison started out doing some of the things his competitors tried, but rejected all of them because they didn't work. Maybe you had to be alive at the time to appreciate what an enormous breakthrough it was when Edison demonstrated his light bulb. No one cared about the others who failed to produce anything useful. (I'm talking about incandescent bulbs here... obviously the arc light was successful in its own field). Jim On Jul 3, 2011, at 7:39 PM, The Farmers wrote: Search Google for who invented the light bulb and you'll see the overwhelming consensus that Edison did not invent it. He improved earlier light bulb inventions and designed power plants to power his light bulb. The most important part of this was that he marketed the entire lighting system, including bulbs, generators, and electrical grids, that municipalities could buy, making it a commercial success. I'm glad to hear the museum has it right. I'd like to point out that a distant relative, Moses G. Farmer, invented an electric light 20 years before Edison, patented it, and in 1858 his house in Salem, Massachusetts was the first in the world lit by electric light. It was not a failure, it actually worked, but it just was not commercially viable. -- Greg Farmer - Original Message - From: Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath Oh, yes. The book is Expiration Date. Other comments about the museum: 1. I was quite unhappy that both a tour guide and a guy playing a young Tom Edison told us that Edison did NOT invent the light bulb, he only perfected it. I couldn't believe they were spreading this garbage to every visitor. Since when does it count when other people try to invent something and fail? I think the US Patent Office agrees with me on the light bulb. It's bad enough that they said that Edison didn't invent the light bulb. But they had to gall to have an actor playing Edison say it out loud. That is an unbelievably inaccurate portrayal of Edison. The actor did get in one jab, however. He pointed out that unlike the others who worked on the light bulb, his actually worked. 2. I'm
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
I've heard many people say that Edison didn't do ANYTHING worthwhile, or simply took credit for others' work. That is interesting because Edison stopped using patents and started using trade secrets because of all of his work that was stolen. That is why we have so little written information on so many things he did especially when it comes to reproducers and their improvement. Today when most people have a working knowledge of electricity it is easy to minimize what Edison did. Before Edison there was gas lighting and in some of the older houses you can see the converted gas to electric system. Edison did learn from the failures of those before him but there is no question he invented the parallel method of electrical distribution which allowed electricity to come into use. Before Edison you had the series method and there was not enough copper available to make the mains large enough to have a practical system for just one large city, let along the whole country. Here are a few things Edison did develop: the parallel circuit, a durable light bulb, an improved dynamo, the u nderground conductor network, the devices for maintaining constant voltage, safety fuses and insulating materials, and light sockets with on-off switches. Before Edison could make his millions, every one of these elements had to be invented and then, through careful trial and error, developed into practical, reproducible components. The first public demonstration of the Thomas Edison's incandescent lighting system was in December 1879, when the Menlo Park laboratory complex was electrically lighted. Edison spent the next several years creating the electric industry. If creating is not inventing then what is? After all that work he did he got kicked out of the company that without him would not have existed so even back then he had recognition problems. Steve From: jnic...@fuse.net Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 23:53:35 -0400 To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath Yes, I know (some) British would disagree, but they're wrong. The part you quoted below about Swan stated that his filament had low resistance, thus needing heavy copper wires to supply it. That is the key reason that Swan and everyone but Edison completely failed to REALLY invent an incandescent light that didn't burn out right away. And not to mention that even if it somehow didn't burn out, it would still be useless for a home owner because of the high current needed to operate it. In the same Wikipedia article you quoted it said that Paul Israel concluded that the high resistance filament was the key invention, and why Edison's 22 predecessors failed. And later in the article is said that the US Patent Office thought about invalidating the patent, but concluded that the high resistance filament was a valid patent claim. So I repeat: What is the point of inventing non-working, non-practical light bulbs? None! They are all failures, not inventions. Edison himself made dozens of light bulbs that were utter failures. Such as platinum filaments, many of which required elaborate thermal cutout mechanisms inside the bulb to shut off power as the platinum reached melting temperature. Those weren't valid light bulbs any more than Swan's were. They were failed experiments, not real inventions. Edison would not have the nerve to claim a failed experiment was a valid invention, as some historians now do. Did any of you guys ever read all the detailed accounts of Edison working on the light bulb? As an electrical engineer, I was fascinated. Scientists of the day said that Edison's attempt to subdivide the light was against the laws of physics. They were thinking in terms of old-fashioned arc lights that used high current, and thus had to be wired in series. Only Edison understood that to succeed he needed high resistance lights, which allowed them to be wired in parallel. Imagine if there was no Edison, and most lights in your house or on your whole street had to be wired in series! Edison was so far beyond others in the field that there is no comparison. Jim On Jul 3, 2011, at 9:29 PM, Bill Burns wrote: On 7/3/2011 8:38 PM, Jim Nichol wrote: I strongly disagree. Yes, Google will tell you that many others worked on the light bulb. But those stories all conclude that none of them were practical. Edison's contribution was not only that he invented the power plant, but more importantly, he invented the first practical incandescent bulb. The British would disagree: In 1850 Swan began working on a light bulb using carbonized paper filaments in an evacuated glass bulb. By 1860 he was able to demonstrate a working device, and obtained a British patent covering a partial vacuum, carbon filament incandescent lamp. However, the lack of a good vacuum and an adequate electric source resulted in an inefficient bulb
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
That's the history of innovation, no one EVER invents something in a vacuum, it is all based on someone else's work. Altair and many others tried to come up with computers that were functional personal computers, the Apple ][ was the first practical home computer system, thus Altair is forgotten and Apple is the largest technology company in the world. Same as the OTTO-cycle engine, many other engines were attempted but It was the first practical gas engine and thus Nikolas Otto gets the credit because his system worked. Bill -- Bill Taney Sent From My iPad On Jul 4, 2011, at 2:17 PM, Steven Medved steve_nor...@msn.com wrote: However, his filament had low resistance, thus needing heavy copper wires to supply it. Jim, You are an electrical engineer, how much copper would have been necessary to provide a working low resistance lighting system for all of England? My understanding is that to employ a low resistance series method of electrical distribution would have used a tremendous amount of copper therefore the Swan system could not have been used. If a system cannot be used even if it works in a laboratory what good is it except for a curiosity? Steve Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 21:29:26 -0400 From: bi...@ftldesign.com To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath On 7/3/2011 8:38 PM, Jim Nichol wrote: I strongly disagree. Yes, Google will tell you that many others worked on the light bulb. But those stories all conclude that none of them were practical. Edison's contribution was not only that he invented the power plant, but more importantly, he invented the first practical incandescent bulb. The British would disagree: In 1850 Swan began working on a light bulb using carbonized paper filaments in an evacuated glass bulb. By 1860 he was able to demonstrate a working device, and obtained a British patent covering a partial vacuum, carbon filament incandescent lamp. However, the lack of a good vacuum and an adequate electric source resulted in an inefficient bulb with a short lifetime. Fifteen years later, in 1875, Swan returned to consider the problem of the light bulb with the aid of a better vacuum and a carbonized thread as a filament. The most significant feature of Swan's improved lamp was that there was little residual oxygen in the vacuum tube to ignite the filament, thus allowing the filament to glow almost white-hot without catching fire. However, his filament had low resistance, thus needing heavy copper wires to supply it.[7] Swan received a British patent for his device in 1878, about a year before Thomas Edison. In America, Edison had been working on copies of the original light bulb patented by Swan, trying to make them more efficient. Though Swan had beaten him to this goal, Edison obtained patents in America for a fairly direct copy of the Swan light, and started an advertising campaign which claimed that he was the real inventor. Swan, who was less interested in making money from the invention, agreed that Edison could sell the lights in America while he retained the rights in Britain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Swan -- Bill Burns Long Island NY USA http://ftldesign.com ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
Jim Nichol wrote: I saw this test tube first in 1997. I almost fell over. I had just read a science fiction book called Edison's Last Breath. The premise was that Edison's last breath AND his soul were captured in a test tube, which was opened in the recent years by a kid. The kid spent the rest of the book mentally communicating with Edison on various adventures, but I can't remember any details. Not once did it occur to me that there is really a test tube like that, presumably without a soul in it. Jim Nichol = For those interested in this book, the title is Expiration Date and written by Tim Powers. It's a very good read, I might add. And Jim...I very much enjoyed your posts about the Menlo Lab and Ford's residence. Thanks for the great info. Dennis ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
Oh, yes. The book is Expiration Date. Other comments about the museum: 1. I was quite unhappy that both a tour guide and a guy playing a young Tom Edison told us that Edison did NOT invent the light bulb, he only perfected it. I couldn't believe they were spreading this garbage to every visitor. Since when does it count when other people try to invent something and fail? I think the US Patent Office agrees with me on the light bulb. It's bad enough that they said that Edison didn't invent the light bulb. But they had to gall to have an actor playing Edison say it out loud. That is an unbelievably inaccurate portrayal of Edison. The actor did get in one jab, however. He pointed out that unlike the others who worked on the light bulb, his actually worked. 2. I'm unhappy that Edison is downplayed compared to how it used to be at the museum. The large phonograph display that was there in the 1970's wasn't there in 2009. The worst thing is that they renamed the complex The Henry Ford instead of using Ford's name for it: The Edison Institute. 3. I am very impressed that they have a Chrysler Turbine car there. As a kid, I saw one of the 50 produced that Chrysler was showing in a local shopping mall. Almost all of them were scrapped on purpose shortly thereafter. I just found out this week that Jay Leno has one (see video on YouTube). 4. I didn't see the Edison Waterpower Phonograph in 2009, but I believe I saw it there on my previous trip in 1997. Jim Nichol On Jul 3, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Dennis Back wrote: For those interested in this book, the title is Expiration Date and written by Tim Powers. It's a very good read, I might add. And Jim...I very much enjoyed your posts about the Menlo Lab and Ford's residence. Dennis ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
For those of us who went to the museum before it was dumbed down, the place was magical. The last time I was there they had an M electric out in the open with no glass around it and sitting in a dark corner. Parts had been picked off of it. I desperately need a brush door plate for an M and could have just lifted the one on this machine right out, pocketed it, and walked out. They didn't seen to care when I brought the question of protecting the machine up to one of the key people there. It was very sad to see them take out important artifacts of the American Industrial Revolution from the main building to put in a snack bar and kiddy play area. Just the history of American steam engines alone was worth the visit and it is now all but gone. Needless-to-say, I have never stolen a phonograph part for my Edison collection and am still looking for a brush inspection door plate for my M electric, a never-ending project machine. I will bite the bullet and make a reproduction out of a cut up Edison Standard B bedplate later this summer if all goes well. BTW - Are they still demonstrating the Bergmann tinfoil reproduction machine? I made a tinfoil recording but the old biddy operating the machine would not give me the tinfoil. I even offered to pay for it as I don't own a single tinfoil recording. Regards to everyone, may all your finds be rare ones, Al PS: The last time I saw Edison's Last Breath they had it sitting in a dimly lit cheesy glass cabinet and it was poorly labeled. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
The last time I was there they gave me a piece of tin foil that had been recorded. I am sorry that they were so unkind to you. Dave --- On Sun, 7/3/11, clockworkh...@aol.com clockworkh...@aol.com wrote: From: clockworkh...@aol.com clockworkh...@aol.com Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sunday, July 3, 2011, 5:07 PM For those of us who went to the museum before it was dumbed down, the place was magical. The last time I was there they had an M electric out in the open with no glass around it and sitting in a dark corner. Parts had been picked off of it. I desperately need a brush door plate for an M and could have just lifted the one on this machine right out, pocketed it, and walked out. They didn't seen to care when I brought the question of protecting the machine up to one of the key people there. It was very sad to see them take out important artifacts of the American Industrial Revolution from the main building to put in a snack bar and kiddy play area. Just the history of American steam engines alone was worth the visit and it is now all but gone. Needless-to-say, I have never stolen a phonograph part for my Edison collection and am still looking for a brush inspection door plate for my M electric, a never-ending project machine. I will bite the bullet and make a reproduction out of a cut up Edison Standard B bedplate later this summer if all goes well. BTW - Are they still demonstrating the Bergmann tinfoil reproduction machine? I made a tinfoil recording but the old biddy operating the machine would not give me the tinfoil. I even offered to pay for it as I don't own a single tinfoil recording. Regards to everyone, may all your finds be rare ones, Al PS: The last time I saw Edison's Last Breath they had it sitting in a dimly lit cheesy glass cabinet and it was poorly labeled. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
I visited the Edison site many years ago and a tour guide told the group about the flat record and Mr. Victor Victrola. Cross my heart. Paul Charosh In a message dated 7/3/2011 6:13:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jnic...@fuse.net writes: Oh, yes. The book is Expiration Date. Other comments about the museum: 1. I was quite unhappy that both a tour guide and a guy playing a young Tom Edison told us that Edison did NOT invent the light bulb, he only perfected it. I couldn't believe they were spreading this garbage to every visitor. Since when does it count when other people try to invent something and fail? I think the US Patent Office agrees with me on the light bulb. It's bad enough that they said that Edison didn't invent the light bulb. But they had to gall to have an actor playing Edison say it out loud. That is an unbelievably inaccurate portrayal of Edison. The actor did get in one jab, however. He pointed out that unlike the others who worked on the light bulb, his actually worked. 2. I'm unhappy that Edison is downplayed compared to how it used to be at the museum. The large phonograph display that was there in the 1970's wasn't there in 2009. The worst thing is that they renamed the complex The Henry Ford instead of using Ford's name for it: The Edison Institute. 3. I am very impressed that they have a Chrysler Turbine car there. As a kid, I saw one of the 50 produced that Chrysler was showing in a local shopping mall. Almost all of them were scrapped on purpose shortly thereafter. I just found out this week that Jay Leno has one (see video on YouTube). 4. I didn't see the Edison Waterpower Phonograph in 2009, but I believe I saw it there on my previous trip in 1997. Jim Nichol On Jul 3, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Dennis Back wrote: For those interested in this book, the title is Expiration Date and written by Tim Powers. It's a very good read, I might add. And Jim...I very much enjoyed your posts about the Menlo Lab and Ford's residence. Dennis ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
Search Google for who invented the light bulb and you'll see the overwhelming consensus that Edison did not invent it. He improved earlier light bulb inventions and designed power plants to power his light bulb. The most important part of this was that he marketed the entire lighting system, including bulbs, generators, and electrical grids, that municipalities could buy, making it a commercial success. I'm glad to hear the museum has it right. I'd like to point out that a distant relative, Moses G. Farmer, invented an electric light 20 years before Edison, patented it, and in 1858 his house in Salem, Massachusetts was the first in the world lit by electric light. It was not a failure, it actually worked, but it just was not commercially viable. -- Greg Farmer - Original Message - From: Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath Oh, yes. The book is Expiration Date. Other comments about the museum: 1. I was quite unhappy that both a tour guide and a guy playing a young Tom Edison told us that Edison did NOT invent the light bulb, he only perfected it. I couldn't believe they were spreading this garbage to every visitor. Since when does it count when other people try to invent something and fail? I think the US Patent Office agrees with me on the light bulb. It's bad enough that they said that Edison didn't invent the light bulb. But they had to gall to have an actor playing Edison say it out loud. That is an unbelievably inaccurate portrayal of Edison. The actor did get in one jab, however. He pointed out that unlike the others who worked on the light bulb, his actually worked. 2. I'm unhappy that Edison is downplayed compared to how it used to be at the museum. The large phonograph display that was there in the 1970's wasn't there in 2009. The worst thing is that they renamed the complex The Henry Ford instead of using Ford's name for it: The Edison Institute. 3. I am very impressed that they have a Chrysler Turbine car there. As a kid, I saw one of the 50 produced that Chrysler was showing in a local shopping mall. Almost all of them were scrapped on purpose shortly thereafter. I just found out this week that Jay Leno has one (see video on YouTube). 4. I didn't see the Edison Waterpower Phonograph in 2009, but I believe I saw it there on my previous trip in 1997. Jim Nichol On Jul 3, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Dennis Back wrote: For those interested in this book, the title is Expiration Date and written by Tim Powers. It's a very good read, I might add. And Jim...I very much enjoyed your posts about the Menlo Lab and Ford's residence. Dennis ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
I strongly disagree. Yes, Google will tell you that many others worked on the light bulb. But those stories all conclude that none of them were practical. Edison's contribution was not only that he invented the power plant, but more importantly, he invented the first practical incandescent bulb. If that's not inventing it, I don't know how else to define it. Sure, Edison started out doing some of the things his competitors tried, but rejected all of them because they didn't work. Maybe you had to be alive at the time to appreciate what an enormous breakthrough it was when Edison demonstrated his light bulb. No one cared about the others who failed to produce anything useful. (I'm talking about incandescent bulbs here... obviously the arc light was successful in its own field). Jim On Jul 3, 2011, at 7:39 PM, The Farmers wrote: Search Google for who invented the light bulb and you'll see the overwhelming consensus that Edison did not invent it. He improved earlier light bulb inventions and designed power plants to power his light bulb. The most important part of this was that he marketed the entire lighting system, including bulbs, generators, and electrical grids, that municipalities could buy, making it a commercial success. I'm glad to hear the museum has it right. I'd like to point out that a distant relative, Moses G. Farmer, invented an electric light 20 years before Edison, patented it, and in 1858 his house in Salem, Massachusetts was the first in the world lit by electric light. It was not a failure, it actually worked, but it just was not commercially viable. -- Greg Farmer - Original Message - From: Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath Oh, yes. The book is Expiration Date. Other comments about the museum: 1. I was quite unhappy that both a tour guide and a guy playing a young Tom Edison told us that Edison did NOT invent the light bulb, he only perfected it. I couldn't believe they were spreading this garbage to every visitor. Since when does it count when other people try to invent something and fail? I think the US Patent Office agrees with me on the light bulb. It's bad enough that they said that Edison didn't invent the light bulb. But they had to gall to have an actor playing Edison say it out loud. That is an unbelievably inaccurate portrayal of Edison. The actor did get in one jab, however. He pointed out that unlike the others who worked on the light bulb, his actually worked. 2. I'm unhappy that Edison is downplayed compared to how it used to be at the museum. The large phonograph display that was there in the 1970's wasn't there in 2009. The worst thing is that they renamed the complex The Henry Ford instead of using Ford's name for it: The Edison Institute. 3. I am very impressed that they have a Chrysler Turbine car there. As a kid, I saw one of the 50 produced that Chrysler was showing in a local shopping mall. Almost all of them were scrapped on purpose shortly thereafter. I just found out this week that Jay Leno has one (see video on YouTube). 4. I didn't see the Edison Waterpower Phonograph in 2009, but I believe I saw it there on my previous trip in 1997. Jim Nichol On Jul 3, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Dennis Back wrote: For those interested in this book, the title is Expiration Date and written by Tim Powers. It's a very good read, I might add. And Jim...I very much enjoyed your posts about the Menlo Lab and Ford's residence. Dennis ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
It should not be hard to obtain a piece of recorded tinfoil. There are a lot of repro tinfoil machines around. Jim On Jul 3, 2011, at 7:41 PM, David Dazer wrote: The last time I was there they gave me a piece of tin foil that had been recorded. I am sorry that they were so unkind to you. Dave --- On Sun, 7/3/11, clockworkh...@aol.com clockworkh...@aol.com wrote: From: clockworkh...@aol.com clockworkh...@aol.com Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sunday, July 3, 2011, 5:07 PM For those of us who went to the museum before it was dumbed down, the place was magical. The last time I was there they had an M electric out in the open with no glass around it and sitting in a dark corner. Parts had been picked off of it. I desperately need a brush door plate for an M and could have just lifted the one on this machine right out, pocketed it, and walked out. They didn't seen to care when I brought the question of protecting the machine up to one of the key people there. It was very sad to see them take out important artifacts of the American Industrial Revolution from the main building to put in a snack bar and kiddy play area. Just the history of American steam engines alone was worth the visit and it is now all but gone. Needless-to-say, I have never stolen a phonograph part for my Edison collection and am still looking for a brush inspection door plate for my M electric, a never-ending project machine. I will bite the bullet and make a reproduction out of a cut up Edison Standard B bedplate later this summer if all goes well. BTW - Are they still demonstrating the Bergmann tinfoil reproduction machine? I made a tinfoil recording but the old biddy operating the machine would not give me the tinfoil. I even offered to pay for it as I don't own a single tinfoil recording. Regards to everyone, may all your finds be rare ones, Al PS: The last time I saw Edison's Last Breath they had it sitting in a dimly lit cheesy glass cabinet and it was poorly labeled. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
Now you are changing what you are saying. I agree he invented the first practical incandescent bulb, but he did not invent the light bulb as you claimed in the first posting. invent - come up with (an idea, plan, explanation, theory, or principle) after a mental effort - to be the first person to make or use (eg a machine, method etc) Edison did not come up with the idea, nor was he the first to make or use a light bulb. He perfected the light bulb and invented a version that was practical, and that's what the tour guide was explaining. -- Greg Farmer - Original Message - From: Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath I strongly disagree. Yes, Google will tell you that many others worked on the light bulb. But those stories all conclude that none of them were practical. Edison's contribution was not only that he invented the power plant, but more importantly, he invented the first practical incandescent bulb. If that's not inventing it, I don't know how else to define it. Sure, Edison started out doing some of the things his competitors tried, but rejected all of them because they didn't work. Maybe you had to be alive at the time to appreciate what an enormous breakthrough it was when Edison demonstrated his light bulb. No one cared about the others who failed to produce anything useful. (I'm talking about incandescent bulbs here... obviously the arc light was successful in its own field). Jim On Jul 3, 2011, at 7:39 PM, The Farmers wrote: Search Google for who invented the light bulb and you'll see the overwhelming consensus that Edison did not invent it. He improved earlier light bulb inventions and designed power plants to power his light bulb. The most important part of this was that he marketed the entire lighting system, including bulbs, generators, and electrical grids, that municipalities could buy, making it a commercial success. I'm glad to hear the museum has it right. I'd like to point out that a distant relative, Moses G. Farmer, invented an electric light 20 years before Edison, patented it, and in 1858 his house in Salem, Massachusetts was the first in the world lit by electric light. It was not a failure, it actually worked, but it just was not commercially viable. -- Greg Farmer - Original Message - From: Jim Nichol jnic...@fuse.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath Oh, yes. The book is Expiration Date. Other comments about the museum: 1. I was quite unhappy that both a tour guide and a guy playing a young Tom Edison told us that Edison did NOT invent the light bulb, he only perfected it. I couldn't believe they were spreading this garbage to every visitor. Since when does it count when other people try to invent something and fail? I think the US Patent Office agrees with me on the light bulb. It's bad enough that they said that Edison didn't invent the light bulb. But they had to gall to have an actor playing Edison say it out loud. That is an unbelievably inaccurate portrayal of Edison. The actor did get in one jab, however. He pointed out that unlike the others who worked on the light bulb, his actually worked. 2. I'm unhappy that Edison is downplayed compared to how it used to be at the museum. The large phonograph display that was there in the 1970's wasn't there in 2009. The worst thing is that they renamed the complex The Henry Ford instead of using Ford's name for it: The Edison Institute. 3. I am very impressed that they have a Chrysler Turbine car there. As a kid, I saw one of the 50 produced that Chrysler was showing in a local shopping mall. Almost all of them were scrapped on purpose shortly thereafter. I just found out this week that Jay Leno has one (see video on YouTube). 4. I didn't see the Edison Waterpower Phonograph in 2009, but I believe I saw it there on my previous trip in 1997. Jim Nichol On Jul 3, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Dennis Back wrote: For those interested in this book, the title is Expiration Date and written by Tim Powers. It's a very good read, I might add. And Jim...I very much enjoyed your posts about the Menlo Lab and Ford's residence. Dennis ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
On 7/3/2011 8:38 PM, Jim Nichol wrote: I strongly disagree. Yes, Google will tell you that many others worked on the light bulb. But those stories all conclude that none of them were practical. Edison's contribution was not only that he invented the power plant, but more importantly, he invented the first practical incandescent bulb. The British would disagree: In 1850 Swan began working on a light bulb using carbonized paper filaments in an evacuated glass bulb. By 1860 he was able to demonstrate a working device, and obtained a British patent covering a partial vacuum, carbon filament incandescent lamp. However, the lack of a good vacuum and an adequate electric source resulted in an inefficient bulb with a short lifetime. Fifteen years later, in 1875, Swan returned to consider the problem of the light bulb with the aid of a better vacuum and a carbonized thread as a filament. The most significant feature of Swan's improved lamp was that there was little residual oxygen in the vacuum tube to ignite the filament, thus allowing the filament to glow almost white-hot without catching fire. However, his filament had low resistance, thus needing heavy copper wires to supply it.[7] Swan received a British patent for his device in 1878, about a year before Thomas Edison. In America, Edison had been working on copies of the original light bulb patented by Swan, trying to make them more efficient. Though Swan had beaten him to this goal, Edison obtained patents in America for a fairly direct copy of the Swan light, and started an advertising campaign which claimed that he was the real inventor. Swan, who was less interested in making money from the invention, agreed that Edison could sell the lights in America while he retained the rights in Britain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Swan -- Bill Burns Long Island NY USA http://ftldesign.com ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
Henry Ford would turn over in his grave if he knew that his museum was telling people that Edison didn't invent the light bulb! I'd love to see him come back and confront these people. Jim ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
Yes, I know (some) British would disagree, but they're wrong. The part you quoted below about Swan stated that his filament had low resistance, thus needing heavy copper wires to supply it. That is the key reason that Swan and everyone but Edison completely failed to REALLY invent an incandescent light that didn't burn out right away. And not to mention that even if it somehow didn't burn out, it would still be useless for a home owner because of the high current needed to operate it. In the same Wikipedia article you quoted it said that Paul Israel concluded that the high resistance filament was the key invention, and why Edison's 22 predecessors failed. And later in the article is said that the US Patent Office thought about invalidating the patent, but concluded that the high resistance filament was a valid patent claim. So I repeat: What is the point of inventing non-working, non-practical light bulbs? None! They are all failures, not inventions. Edison himself made dozens of light bulbs that were utter failures. Such as platinum filaments, many of which required elaborate thermal cutout mechanisms inside the bulb to shut off power as the platinum reached melting temperature. Those weren't valid light bulbs any more than Swan's were. They were failed experiments, not real inventions. Edison would not have the nerve to claim a failed experiment was a valid invention, as some historians now do. Did any of you guys ever read all the detailed accounts of Edison working on the light bulb? As an electrical engineer, I was fascinated. Scientists of the day said that Edison's attempt to subdivide the light was against the laws of physics. They were thinking in terms of old-fashioned arc lights that used high current, and thus had to be wired in series. Only Edison understood that to succeed he needed high resistance lights, which allowed them to be wired in parallel. Imagine if there was no Edison, and most lights in your house or on your whole street had to be wired in series! Edison was so far beyond others in the field that there is no comparison. Jim On Jul 3, 2011, at 9:29 PM, Bill Burns wrote: On 7/3/2011 8:38 PM, Jim Nichol wrote: I strongly disagree. Yes, Google will tell you that many others worked on the light bulb. But those stories all conclude that none of them were practical. Edison's contribution was not only that he invented the power plant, but more importantly, he invented the first practical incandescent bulb. The British would disagree: In 1850 Swan began working on a light bulb using carbonized paper filaments in an evacuated glass bulb. By 1860 he was able to demonstrate a working device, and obtained a British patent covering a partial vacuum, carbon filament incandescent lamp. However, the lack of a good vacuum and an adequate electric source resulted in an inefficient bulb with a short lifetime. Fifteen years later, in 1875, Swan returned to consider the problem of the light bulb with the aid of a better vacuum and a carbonized thread as a filament. The most significant feature of Swan's improved lamp was that there was little residual oxygen in the vacuum tube to ignite the filament, thus allowing the filament to glow almost white-hot without catching fire. However, his filament had low resistance, thus needing heavy copper wires to supply it.[7] Swan received a British patent for his device in 1878, about a year before Thomas Edison. In America, Edison had been working on copies of the original light bulb patented by Swan, trying to make them more efficient. Though Swan had beaten him to this goal, Edison obtained patents in America for a fairly direct copy of the Swan light, and started an advertising campaign which claimed that he was the real inventor. Swan, who was less interested in making money from the invention, agreed that Edison could sell the lights in America while he retained the rights in Britain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Swan -- Bill Burns Long Island NY USA http://ftldesign.com ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
Hey what about taking the argument off line? You have already made this topic pretty boring. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
