Re: Announce: PicoLisp on bare metal
Dear Alex, determining the size, by loading slightly modified sources into standard miniPicoLisp. The target system would have had dedicated hardware to interface with, but the project didn't get of the ground (yet?). OK. I understand. It will be really nice to port the lib/http.l codebase for Alcor6L since we have a uIP stack on the microcontroller for ethernet Apps. I'm sure I'll have many questions when I get to it (a sock library for PicoLisp on Mizar32 :) Although the uIP interface is a bit buggy, it still works. One can still use PicoLisp over a telnet session. R On 22 September 2014 12:02, Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: Dear Raman, FYI: I did some experiments for a minimal web server (loading the full miniPicoLisp 'pil' environment plus lib/http.l, lib/xhtml.l and lib/form.l). It occupied about 500 kB. This was OK because we had a limit of 1 MB. Wow! Fantastic! But just a question. Since miniPicoLisp doesn't come with support for sock or other system specific functions, how did you manage to get lib/http.l to work with it? Am I missing something? Sorry, I didn't fully explain. These experiments were only about determining the size, by loading slightly modified sources into standard miniPicoLisp. The target system would have had dedicated hardware to interface with, but the project didn't get of the ground (yet?). ♪♫ Alex -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Once more, congratulation! This is awesome! I really believe this is/will be huge. 1. kickstarter Afaik you need a US tax number to use kickstarter, so either a us citizen oder better a us company is necessary. It's possible to do a setup by creating a cheap delaware company, I know guys who did it, but its quite a bit complex for non-us people. So I would recommend using another platform, or even first trying to use this mailling list or a custom website to set a crowd project up from this. Maybe you don't even need a crowdfunding project, if we find enough people this way? 2. PilMCU applications Beside the wearable/mobile/robotics applications (go for it!), I'm personally interested in picolisp server hardware. Maybe producing something similiar to Intel NUC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Unit_of_Computing) ? So extendable RAM plus storage plus network plug, and we would have a fine little box for all kind of server applications. No OS overhead, no stack security issues (heartbleed), just beautiful picolisp. This would also allow to produce/sell custom solutions, e.g. put software on cheap tiny hardware box, sell the device, similiar to kinko (https://kinko.me/the-kinko-project/) 3. OpenSource legitimacy About this one I'm not sure, its more a philosophical thing, maybe I got it wrong: With traditional soft- and hardware, there is the problem, that even with a copy of the source code of a certain application, we can't be sure that the actual running instance of the application uses the same source code and didn't get altered by a malware-injecting compiler. Let's say we have hardware which interprets picolisp directly, and does nothing else (which one can proof about a certain piece of hardware). And picolisp applicaiton is always readable clear text source code, so isn't this actually an instance were we can proof WHAT the hardware and software of this thing is doing, even when running? Good morning everyone! Wow! thanks for all this nice feedback's, a nice way to greet a morning weekend :) Btw sorry if i cannot individually reply on each topic, but let me share my thoughts on this two topic that is recently on the table: 1. Kickstarter or Indigogo 2. Verilog source code availability 1. Actually this is what i suggested to Alex for we had a customer here before that we produced his product from kicksarter. But from what i understand, inorder to register our project we need a video to show the early progress of the project. Its either we can make a video showing the verilog simulator running OR emulator in C running? but i think it would be great to show an actual FPGA board running the pilMCU, this option would be more attractive right? so my primary goal as of now is to get an FPGA board from online and start synthesize the code for the actual FPGA hardware. Anyone with experience with FPGA is welcome to provide their inputs ;) 2. This i need to discuss with Alex first. But if you ask me, actually there were good points shared here, but i think its still too early too release the code for it is still at design stage and as much as possible, me and Alex would like to stabilize the core first and also to have a robust kit first. If anyone wants to try the machine, as of the moment the best way is to run the 'emu' version :) but don't worry, picolisp community will surely be the first to have an actual hands-on once the actual hardware is ready ;) Great weekend everyone, cheers!! BR, Geo On Saturday, September 20, 2014 5:46 AM, Thorsten Jolitz tjol...@gmail.com wrote: Christophe Gragnic christophegrag...@gmail.com writes: On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:53 PM, Loyall, David david.loy...@nebraska.gov wrote: If you sell a FPGA configured to be an open source Lisp CPU, I'll buy a few Someone on Hacker News: «where's the kickstarter page? I want a few of those.» I'd buy a few too. Thats the idea, I would say: buy the chips and support the project. Give them time to prepare a nice kickstarter project. Enjoy the opportunity to support a wonderful free software project to become not only a technical but an economic success too. You ask them to give away their most important 'capital' to the public before even starting the business. Not a good advice, really ... -- cheers, Thorsten -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: PicoLisp roots
Hi Jerome, You might be interested in https://github.com/michelp/0pl as it's somewhat similar to what you are trying to accomplish. It's PicoLisp bindings for ZeroMQ It may give you some ideas on how to tackle the amqp port On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 12:32 PM, jerome moliere jer...@javaxpert.com wrote: Hi all, I do not intend to spam your mailing list , sorry if this question sounds stupid for many of you but I had a look to the PicoLisp language.I am not a Lisp expert but I can write Clojure code Emacs Lisp I'd like to know how far/close PicoLisp is from Common Lisp or other Lisp dialects. In fact I've seen that github hosts a Common Lisp AMQP client library and I'd like to estimate how much work I would need to port this library to PicoLisp. The project is hosted here : https://github.com/lisp/de.setf.amqp Thanks for precious help Kind regards -- JMOLIERE - Mentor/J
Re: PicoLisp roots
Thanks Joe for the pointer... Sounds very interesting.. I '' have a closer look tonight... regards On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Joe Bogner joebog...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Jerome, You might be interested in https://github.com/michelp/0pl as it's somewhat similar to what you are trying to accomplish. It's PicoLisp bindings for ZeroMQ It may give you some ideas on how to tackle the amqp port On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 12:32 PM, jerome moliere jer...@javaxpert.com wrote: Hi all, I do not intend to spam your mailing list , sorry if this question sounds stupid for many of you but I had a look to the PicoLisp language.I am not a Lisp expert but I can write Clojure code Emacs Lisp I'd like to know how far/close PicoLisp is from Common Lisp or other Lisp dialects. In fact I've seen that github hosts a Common Lisp AMQP client library and I'd like to estimate how much work I would need to port this library to PicoLisp. The project is hosted here : https://github.com/lisp/de.setf.amqp Thanks for precious help Kind regards -- JMOLIERE - Mentor/J -- J.MOLIERE - Mentor/J
Re: Programming environment for PilMCU
Hi Thorsten, The pilMCU is the PicoLisp interpreter itself :) To interact with it, as of the moment we will use UART and use a PC as terminal. But later we plan to add PS/2 and VGA as the means to interact with the hardware interpreter, i hope this answer your inquiry? Thanks! BR, Geo On Monday, September 22, 2014 5:29 PM, Thorsten Jolitz tjol...@gmail.com wrote: Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de writes: Hi Alex, Assuming PilMCU hardware exists and someone wants to use or program it, how would that look like? Where would one type the commands to manage the file system (whats the PilCMU terminal/console?), how would one interact with the PicoLisp REPL? You saw the copy/pasted session in my first post? That's exactly how you interact with it. yes, but I wondered what would be the device the PicoLisp REPL runs on in this case. We have two I/O ports defined as TTY in- and output. On the real hardware you connect a terminal(program). ok The SSD images contain a database, with a simple file system implemented in external symbols. These images are generated with a normal PicoLisp running on a standard PC, and then transferred to the SSDs. ok I made the images so far by copying normal *.l files from standard PicoLisp to an init/ directory, and edited the files so that they were the way we need them for PilMCU. thanks for the info! -- cheers, Thorsten -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Hi Sandeep and Andreas! Thanks for your support :) Andreas, thanks for your great inputs! It's indeed what we are looking forward. With everyone showing support and interest really is a motivation booster and now i'm preparing myself to next stage which is synthesizing the Verilog code to be used on actual FPGA board. I already found a good candidate for the FPGA board but if you want to see, these are my line-ups, sorry its in Chinese :( Altera CycloneIV FPGA开发板/学习板 EP4CE6E22C8N 【可开发票】-淘宝网 Altera CycloneIV FPGA开发板/学习板 EP4CE6E22C8N 【可开发票】-淘宝网 欢迎前来淘宝网单片机/开发板/学习板-IC集成电路/电机-电子元器件市场-3C数码配件市场类实力旺铺，选购Altera CycloneIV FPGA开发板/学习板 EP4CE6E22C8N 【可开发票】,想了解更多Altera CycloneIV FPGA开发板/学习板 EP4CE6E22C8N 【可开发票】，请进入zrtec... View on item.taobao.com Preview by Yahoo Altera FPGA 开发板学习板 NIOS 赠送USB下载器、电源线 EP4CE6-淘宝网 Altera FPGA 开发板学习板 NIOS 赠送USB下载器、电源线 EP4CE6-淘宝网 欢迎前来淘宝网选购热销单片机/开发板/学习板-IC集成电路/电机-电子元器件市场-3C数码配件市场商品Altera FPGA 开发板学习板 NIOS 赠送USB下载器、电源线 EP4CE6,想了解更多Altera FPGA 开发板学习板 NIOS 赠送USB下载器、电源线 EP4CE6，请进入dongguo100的店... View on item.taobao.com Preview by Yahoo FPGA开发板/CPLD开发板/学习板/视频教程/送下载器/包邮/ALTERA-淘宝网 FPGA开发板/CPLD开发板/学习板/视频教程/送下载器/包邮/ALTERA-淘宝网 欢迎前来淘宝网选购热销单片机/开发板/学习板-IC集成电路/电机-电子元器件市场-3C数码配件市场商品FPGA开发板/CPLD开发板/学习板/视频教程/送下载器/包邮/ALTERA,想了解更多FPGA开发板/CPLD开发板/学习板/视频教程/送下载器/包邮/ALTERA，请进入qqiu1234... View on item.taobao.com Preview by Yahoo FPGA开发板FPGA学习板 Altera EP2C5Q208 NIOSII SOPC实验板-淘宝网 FPGA开发板FPGA学习板 Altera EP2C5Q208 NIOSII SOPC实验板-淘宝网 欢迎前来淘宝网选购热销单片机/开发板/学习板-IC集成电路/电机-电子元器件市场-3C数码配件市场商品FPGA开发板FPGA学习板 Altera EP2C5Q208 NIOSII SOPC实验板,想了解更多FPGA开发板FPGA学习板 Altera EP2C5Q208 NIOSII SOPC实验板，请进入baixunltd的店铺... View on item.taobao.com Preview by Yahoo FPGA外扩板/扩展板 DM9000/CY7C68013/WM8731/VGA 以太网USB音频-淘宝网 FPGA外扩板/扩展板 DM9000/CY7C68013/WM8731/VGA 以太网USB音频-淘宝网 欢迎前来淘宝网选购热销单片机/开发板/学习板-IC集成电路/电机-电子元器件市场-3C数码配件市场商品FPGA外扩板/扩展板 DM9000/CY7C68013/WM8731/VGA 以太网USB音频,想了解更多FPGA外扩板/扩展板 DM9000/CY7C68013/WM8731/VGA 以太网USB音频，请进... View on item.taobao.com Preview by Yahoo FPGA开发板ALTERA CycloneIV视频NIOS图像DDR彩色VGA音频 EP4CE30-淘宝网 FPGA开发板ALTERA CycloneIV视频NIOS图像DDR彩色VGA音频 EP4CE30-淘宝网 欢迎前来淘宝网单片机/开发板/学习板-IC集成电路/电机-电子元器件市场-3C数码配件市场类实力旺铺，选购FPGA开发板ALTERA CycloneIV视频NIOS图像DDR彩色VGA音频 EP4CE30,想了解更多FPGA开发板ALTERA CycloneIV视频NIOS图像DDR彩色VGA音频 EP4CE30，... View on item.taobao.com Preview by Yahoo BR, Geo On Monday, September 22, 2014 5:33 PM, andr...@itship.ch andr...@itship.ch wrote: Once more, congratulation! This is awesome! I really believe this is/will be huge. 1. kickstarter Afaik you need a US tax number to use kickstarter, so either a us citizen oder better a us company is necessary. It's possible to do a setup by creating a cheap delaware company, I know guys who did it, but its quite a bit complex for non-us people. So I would recommend using another platform, or even first trying to use this mailling list or a custom website to set a crowd project up from this. Maybe you don't even need a crowdfunding project, if we find enough people this way? 2. PilMCU applications Beside the wearable/mobile/robotics applications (go for it!), I'm personally interested in picolisp server hardware. Maybe producing something similiar to Intel NUC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Unit_of_Computing) ? So extendable RAM plus storage plus network plug, and we would have a fine little box for all kind of server applications. No OS overhead, no stack security issues (heartbleed), just beautiful picolisp. This would also allow to produce/sell custom solutions, e.g. put software on cheap tiny hardware box, sell the device, similiar to kinko (https://kinko.me/the-kinko-project/) 3. OpenSource legitimacy About this one I'm not sure, its more a philosophical thing, maybe I got it wrong: With traditional soft- and hardware, there is the problem, that even with a copy of the source code of a certain application, we can't be sure that the actual running instance of the application uses the same source code and didn't get altered by a malware-injecting compiler. Let's say we have hardware which interprets picolisp directly, and does nothing else (which one can proof about a certain piece of hardware). And picolisp applicaiton is always readable clear text source code, so isn't this actually an instance were we can proof WHAT the hardware and software of this thing is doing, even when running? Good morning everyone! Wow! thanks for all this nice feedback's, a nice way to greet a morning weekend :) Btw sorry if i cannot individually reply on each topic, but let me share my thoughts on this two topic that is recently on the table: 1. Kickstarter or Indigogo 2. Verilog source code availability 1. Actually this is what i suggested to Alex for we had a customer here before that we produced his product from kicksarter. But from what i understand, inorder to register our project we need a video to show the early
Re: Programming environment for PilMCU
George Orais gpor...@yahoo.com writes: Hi George, The pilMCU is the PicoLisp interpreter itself :) To interact with it, as of the moment we will use UART and use a PC as terminal. But later we plan to add PS/2 and VGA as the means to inter act with the hardware interpreter, i hope this answer your inquiry? Thanks! Yes, thank you! This stuff is exciting, but a bit new for me too ... On Monday, September 22, 2014 5:29 PM, Thorsten Jolitz tjol...@gmail.com wrote: Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de writes: Hi Alex, Assuming PilMCU hardware exists and someone wants to use or program it, how would that look like? Where would one type the commands to manage the file system (whats the PilCMU terminal/console?), how would one interact with the PicoLisp REPL? You saw the copy/pasted session in my first post? That's exactly how you interact with it. yes, but I wondered what would be the device the PicoLisp REPL runs on in this case. We have two I/O ports defined as TTY in- and output. On the real hardware you connect a terminal(program). ok The SSD images contain a database, with a simple file system implemented in external symbols. These images are generated with a normal PicoLisp running on a standard PC, and then transferred t o the SSDs. ok I made the images so far by copying normal *.l files from standard PicoLisp to an init/ directory, and edited the files so that they were the way we need them for PilMCU. thanks for the info! -- cheers, Thorsten -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
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Re: Programming environment for PilMCU
Holding my pants tight ;-) The dream of an actual lisp machine may be coming true. This is an amazing project and I know there were a few attempts in the past (basic lisp on another fpga but that never picked up). I really hope this works out. What's interesting is that database bundled with picolisp - this could allow for actually useful hardware devices based on the Mcu. Not sure if you guys know there are other language+database solutions like KX systems' Q / KDB (very! Popular in banking). There's also ODRA - object oriented database with great stack-based language - actually my masters thesis was tightly dependent on ODRA. I totally support lisp and the bundled database and I'm very curious what happens next. On Sep 22, 2014, at 20:41, George Orais gpor...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Thorsten, The pilMCU is the PicoLisp interpreter itself :) To interact with it, as of the moment we will use UART and use a PC as terminal. But later we plan to add PS/2 and VGA as the means to interact with the hardware interpreter, i hope this answer your inquiry? Thanks! BR, Geo On Monday, September 22, 2014 5:29 PM, Thorsten Jolitz tjol...@gmail.com wrote: Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de writes: Hi Alex, Assuming PilMCU hardware exists and someone wants to use or program it, how would that look like? Where would one type the commands to manage the file system (whats the PilCMU terminal/console?), how would one interact with the PicoLisp REPL? You saw the copy/pasted session in my first post? That's exactly how you interact with it. yes, but I wondered what would be the device the PicoLisp REPL runs on in this case. We have two I/O ports defined as TTY in- and output. On the real hardware you connect a terminal(program). ok The SSD images contain a database, with a simple file system implemented in external symbols. These images are generated with a normal PicoLisp running on a standard PC, and then transferred to the SSDs. ok I made the images so far by copying normal *.l files from standard PicoLisp to an init/ directory, and edited the files so that they were the way we need them for PilMCU. thanks for the info! -- cheers, Thorsten -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
If we're talking small potatoes, I'm sure there are a number of US entities (ALU, LispNYC) that would happily front their EIN for a cool kickstarter. On 2014-9-22, 5:26 AM, andr...@itship.ch wrote: Once more, congratulation! This is awesome! I really believe this is/will be huge. 1. kickstarter Afaik you need a US tax number to use kickstarter, so either a us citizen oder better a us company is necessary. It's possible to do a setup by creating a cheap delaware company, I know guys who did it, but its quite a bit complex for non-us people. So I would recommend using another platform, or even first trying to use this mailling list or a custom website to set a crowd project up from this. Maybe you don't even need a crowdfunding project, if we find enough people this way? 2. PilMCU applications Beside the wearable/mobile/robotics applications (go for it!), I'm personally interested in picolisp server hardware. Maybe producing something similiar to Intel NUC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Unit_of_Computing) ? So extendable RAM plus storage plus network plug, and we would have a fine little box for all kind of server applications. No OS overhead, no stack security issues (heartbleed), just beautiful picolisp. This would also allow to produce/sell custom solutions, e.g. put software on cheap tiny hardware box, sell the device, similiar to kinko (https://kinko.me/the-kinko-project/) 3. OpenSource legitimacy About this one I'm not sure, its more a philosophical thing, maybe I got it wrong: With traditional soft- and hardware, there is the problem, that even with a copy of the source code of a certain application, we can't be sure that the actual running instance of the application uses the same source code and didn't get altered by a malware-injecting compiler. Let's say we have hardware which interprets picolisp directly, and does nothing else (which one can proof about a certain piece of hardware). And picolisp applicaiton is always readable clear text source code, so isn't this actually an instance were we can proof WHAT the hardware and software of this thing is doing, even when running? Good morning everyone! Wow! thanks for all this nice feedback's, a nice way to greet a morning weekend :) Btw sorry if i cannot individually reply on each topic, but let me share my thoughts on this two topic that is recently on the table: 1. Kickstarter or Indigogo 2. Verilog source code availability 1. Actually this is what i suggested to Alex for we had a customer here before that we produced his product from kicksarter. But from what i understand, inorder to register our project we need a video to show the early progress of the project. Its either we can make a video showing the verilog simulator running OR emulator in C running? but i think it would be great to show an actual FPGA board running the pilMCU, this option would be more attractive right? so my primary goal as of now is to get an FPGA board from online and start synthesize the code for the actual FPGA hardware. Anyone with experience with FPGA is welcome to provide their inputs ;) 2. This i need to discuss with Alex first. But if you ask me, actually there were good points shared here, but i think its still too early too release the code for it is still at design stage and as much as possible, me and Alex would like to stabilize the core first and also to have a robust kit first. If anyone wants to try the machine, as of the moment the best way is to run the 'emu' version :) but don't worry, picolisp community will surely be the first to have an actual hands-on once the actual hardware is ready ;) Great weekend everyone, cheers!! BR, Geo On Saturday, September 20, 2014 5:46 AM, Thorsten Jolitz tjol...@gmail.com wrote: Christophe Gragnic christophegrag...@gmail.com writes: On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:53 PM, Loyall, David david.loy...@nebraska.gov wrote: If you sell a FPGA configured to be an open source Lisp CPU, I'll buy a few Someone on Hacker News: «where's the kickstarter page? I want a few of those.» I'd buy a few too. Thats the idea, I would say: buy the chips and support the project. Give them time to prepare a nice kickstarter project. Enjoy the opportunity to support a wonderful free software project to become not only a technical but an economic success too. You ask them to give away their most important 'capital' to the public before even starting the business. Not a good advice, really ... -- cheers, Thorsten -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
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RE: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
From: Alexander Burger [...] And I can assure you that PicoLisp will never be a closed system. My personal opintion has always been that developments should be shared, and that the term intellectual property per se is unethical. Well said. If/when other implementations try to compete with you, this statement will give you a competitive advantage. [...] But I also need to survive economically, and it is really tough for a freelancer to do so. I understand. I thought you could release the design (even PCB layouts if you end up going that direction) and still sell the hardware. Most people never manufacture their own hardware--that includes me. But I'm a happier customer when I know that the product I'm purchasing has longevity--well known designs live longer. I still have my c64 programmer's manual complete with circuit diagrams, which will come in handy if I want to figure out how to connect it to a modern display device! Secret designs become black boxes once the parent company loses interest--no new display adapters (for example) and no hope of making your own. It sounds like you know this well already. :) [...] 95 percent of the sources of the PilMCU are standard 64-bit PicoLisp. I think I get it. Emu is another arch, like ppc64 or x86-64. Nice. :) I think that this product will have the longevity I seek. Carry on! Cheers, --Dave
