Re: [PLUG] Simultaneously horrifying and amazing!
Put a floppy controller controlled tape drive on there and Bobs your uncle! Ted -Original Message- From: PLUG On Behalf Of Vince Winter Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2023 10:56 AM To: Portland Linux/Unix Group Subject: Re: [PLUG] Simultaneously horrifying and amazing! I have seen a SD card to floppy adapter before. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FlashPath One of the most niche things I have seen in person. On Wed, Nov 1, 2023, 8:37 AM Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > It's not QUITE this bad but it is pretty bad. > > I use USB external hard disk docs and disks for backup. Once you get > a COMPATIBLE device then backup over USB is reliable. > > But there are many dock models out there that won't work with > different motherboards or will work a few times then stop working. > > And it's the same thing whether you are running Linux or Windows on > the systems. > > I have also tried using USB-to-serial dongles for industrial control > of PLCs and such, it did not work. The dongles will drop characters and the > market is full of counterfeit dongles anyway. The rs232 port pcie cards > generally work. > > Ted > > -Original Message- > From: PLUG On Behalf Of Ben Koenig > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2023 12:46 PM > To: Portland Linux/Unix Group > Subject: Re: [PLUG] Simultaneously horrifying and amazing! > > > --- Original Message --- > On Friday, October 27th, 2023 at 10:20 AM, Bill Barry > > wrote: > > > > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 12:15 PM Russell Senior > > russ...@personaltelco.net > > > > wrote: > > > > > It wasn't the RS-232 that surprised me, it was the combination of > > > RS-232 and PCI-E, when I expected that modern RS-232 interfaces to > > > just use a USB converter. It is kind of like finding someone > > > putting a Pratt and Whitney turbo fan on a Sopwith Camel. > > > > > > And here I was just about to reply and ask what would be the > > > advantage of > > > > a PCI-E card over the much cheaper USB converters :) > > > > Bill > > USB is designed as a user-friendly Plug 'n Play connection. There is a > lot of variety in how it is implemented and it tends to do weird > things when used for long term connectivity. > > I encountered this in the storage world. People who use USB for backup > storage typically leave the external HDD connected indefinitely, which > eventually causes problems. At some point the USB host controller will > reset the port. There are also issues with power management where host > controllers will put a port to "sleep" and issues with the amount of > power delivered to the port not being consistent. > > PCIe on the other hand, is a much more robust interface. Once you plug > it in and power it on, it stays that way until the rapture. Less > variance in how vendors implement it. > > In Linux, the USB host controller drivers include a system of "quirks" > which are enabled/disabled based on the make/model of the chip. For > example, here's a bit of code from the latest stable kernel where they > describe enabling one of these quirks for Intel hosts. > > > /* Existing Intel xHCI controllers require a delay of 1 mS, > * after setting the CMD_RESET bit, and before accessing any > * HC registers. This allows the HC to complete the > * reset operation and be ready for HC register access. > * Without this delay, the subsequent HC register access, > * may result in a system hang very rarely. > */ > if (xhci->quirks & XHCI_INTEL_HOST) > udelay(1000); > > > Note how this specifically calls out Intel. As if other vendors don't > implement this same 1ms delay? > -Ben > >
Re: [PLUG] Simultaneously horrifying and amazing!
I have seen a SD card to floppy adapter before. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FlashPath One of the most niche things I have seen in person. On Wed, Nov 1, 2023, 8:37 AM Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > It's not QUITE this bad but it is pretty bad. > > I use USB external hard disk docs and disks for backup. Once you get a > COMPATIBLE device then backup over USB is reliable. > > But there are many dock models out there that won't work with different > motherboards or will work a few times then stop working. > > And it's the same thing whether you are running Linux or Windows on the > systems. > > I have also tried using USB-to-serial dongles for industrial control of > PLCs and such, it did not work. The dongles will drop characters and the > market is full of counterfeit dongles anyway. The rs232 port pcie cards > generally work. > > Ted > > -Original Message- > From: PLUG On Behalf Of Ben Koenig > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2023 12:46 PM > To: Portland Linux/Unix Group > Subject: Re: [PLUG] Simultaneously horrifying and amazing! > > > --- Original Message --- > On Friday, October 27th, 2023 at 10:20 AM, Bill Barry > wrote: > > > > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 12:15 PM Russell Senior > > russ...@personaltelco.net > > > > wrote: > > > > > It wasn't the RS-232 that surprised me, it was the combination of > > > RS-232 and PCI-E, when I expected that modern RS-232 interfaces to > > > just use a USB converter. It is kind of like finding someone putting > > > a Pratt and Whitney turbo fan on a Sopwith Camel. > > > > > > And here I was just about to reply and ask what would be the > > > advantage of > > > > a PCI-E card over the much cheaper USB converters :) > > > > Bill > > USB is designed as a user-friendly Plug 'n Play connection. There is a lot > of variety in how it is implemented and it tends to do weird things when > used for long term connectivity. > > I encountered this in the storage world. People who use USB for backup > storage typically leave the external HDD connected indefinitely, which > eventually causes problems. At some point the USB host controller will > reset the port. There are also issues with power management where host > controllers will put a port to "sleep" and issues with the amount of power > delivered to the port not being consistent. > > PCIe on the other hand, is a much more robust interface. Once you plug it > in and power it on, it stays that way until the rapture. Less variance in > how vendors implement it. > > In Linux, the USB host controller drivers include a system of "quirks" > which are enabled/disabled based on the make/model of the chip. For > example, here's a bit of code from the latest stable kernel where they > describe enabling one of these quirks for Intel hosts. > > > /* Existing Intel xHCI controllers require a delay of 1 mS, > * after setting the CMD_RESET bit, and before accessing any > * HC registers. This allows the HC to complete the > * reset operation and be ready for HC register access. > * Without this delay, the subsequent HC register access, > * may result in a system hang very rarely. > */ > if (xhci->quirks & XHCI_INTEL_HOST) > udelay(1000); > > > Note how this specifically calls out Intel. As if other vendors don't > implement this same 1ms delay? > -Ben > >
Re: [PLUG] Simultaneously horrifying and amazing!
It's not QUITE this bad but it is pretty bad. I use USB external hard disk docs and disks for backup. Once you get a COMPATIBLE device then backup over USB is reliable. But there are many dock models out there that won't work with different motherboards or will work a few times then stop working. And it's the same thing whether you are running Linux or Windows on the systems. I have also tried using USB-to-serial dongles for industrial control of PLCs and such, it did not work. The dongles will drop characters and the market is full of counterfeit dongles anyway. The rs232 port pcie cards generally work. Ted -Original Message- From: PLUG On Behalf Of Ben Koenig Sent: Friday, October 27, 2023 12:46 PM To: Portland Linux/Unix Group Subject: Re: [PLUG] Simultaneously horrifying and amazing! --- Original Message --- On Friday, October 27th, 2023 at 10:20 AM, Bill Barry wrote: > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 12:15 PM Russell Senior > russ...@personaltelco.net > > wrote: > > > It wasn't the RS-232 that surprised me, it was the combination of > > RS-232 and PCI-E, when I expected that modern RS-232 interfaces to > > just use a USB converter. It is kind of like finding someone putting > > a Pratt and Whitney turbo fan on a Sopwith Camel. > > > > And here I was just about to reply and ask what would be the > > advantage of > > a PCI-E card over the much cheaper USB converters :) > > Bill USB is designed as a user-friendly Plug 'n Play connection. There is a lot of variety in how it is implemented and it tends to do weird things when used for long term connectivity. I encountered this in the storage world. People who use USB for backup storage typically leave the external HDD connected indefinitely, which eventually causes problems. At some point the USB host controller will reset the port. There are also issues with power management where host controllers will put a port to "sleep" and issues with the amount of power delivered to the port not being consistent. PCIe on the other hand, is a much more robust interface. Once you plug it in and power it on, it stays that way until the rapture. Less variance in how vendors implement it. In Linux, the USB host controller drivers include a system of "quirks" which are enabled/disabled based on the make/model of the chip. For example, here's a bit of code from the latest stable kernel where they describe enabling one of these quirks for Intel hosts. /* Existing Intel xHCI controllers require a delay of 1 mS, * after setting the CMD_RESET bit, and before accessing any * HC registers. This allows the HC to complete the * reset operation and be ready for HC register access. * Without this delay, the subsequent HC register access, * may result in a system hang very rarely. */ if (xhci->quirks & XHCI_INTEL_HOST) udelay(1000); Note how this specifically calls out Intel. As if other vendors don't implement this same 1ms delay? -Ben
Re: [PLUG] Simultaneously horrifying and amazing!
--- Original Message --- On Friday, October 27th, 2023 at 10:20 AM, Bill Barry wrote: > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 12:15 PM Russell Senior russ...@personaltelco.net > > wrote: > > > It wasn't the RS-232 that surprised me, it was the combination of RS-232 > > and PCI-E, when I expected that modern RS-232 interfaces to just use a USB > > converter. It is kind of like finding someone putting a Pratt and Whitney > > turbo fan on a Sopwith Camel. > > > > And here I was just about to reply and ask what would be the advantage of > > a PCI-E card over the much cheaper USB converters :) > > Bill USB is designed as a user-friendly Plug 'n Play connection. There is a lot of variety in how it is implemented and it tends to do weird things when used for long term connectivity. I encountered this in the storage world. People who use USB for backup storage typically leave the external HDD connected indefinitely, which eventually causes problems. At some point the USB host controller will reset the port. There are also issues with power management where host controllers will put a port to "sleep" and issues with the amount of power delivered to the port not being consistent. PCIe on the other hand, is a much more robust interface. Once you plug it in and power it on, it stays that way until the rapture. Less variance in how vendors implement it. In Linux, the USB host controller drivers include a system of "quirks" which are enabled/disabled based on the make/model of the chip. For example, here's a bit of code from the latest stable kernel where they describe enabling one of these quirks for Intel hosts. /* Existing Intel xHCI controllers require a delay of 1 mS, * after setting the CMD_RESET bit, and before accessing any * HC registers. This allows the HC to complete the * reset operation and be ready for HC register access. * Without this delay, the subsequent HC register access, * may result in a system hang very rarely. */ if (xhci->quirks & XHCI_INTEL_HOST) udelay(1000); Note how this specifically calls out Intel. As if other vendors don't implement this same 1ms delay? -Ben
Re: [PLUG] Simultaneously horrifying and amazing!
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023, Russell Senior wrote: It wasn't the RS-232 that surprised me, it was the combination of RS-232 and PCI-E, when I expected that modern RS-232 interfaces to just use a USB converter. It is kind of like finding someone putting a Pratt and Whitney turbo fan on a Sopwith Camel. I'd say it's the opposite, more like putting Model T engine in a Formula One chassis. :-) Of course, most IPMI controllers emulate serial communications over ethernet (serial-over-LAN), because out-of-band serial connections are ever-so helpful, even (especially?) today. -- Paul Heinlein heinl...@madboa.com 45°22'48" N, 122°35'36" W
Re: [PLUG] Simultaneously horrifying and amazing!
On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 12:15 PM Russell Senior wrote: > It wasn't the RS-232 that surprised me, it was the combination of RS-232 > and PCI-E, when I expected that modern RS-232 interfaces to just use a USB > converter. It is kind of like finding someone putting a Pratt and Whitney > turbo fan on a Sopwith Camel. > > And here I was just about to reply and ask what would be the advantage of a PCI-E card over the much cheaper USB converters :) Bill
Re: [PLUG] Simultaneously horrifying and amazing!
It wasn't the RS-232 that surprised me, it was the combination of RS-232 and PCI-E, when I expected that modern RS-232 interfaces to just use a USB converter. It is kind of like finding someone putting a Pratt and Whitney turbo fan on a Sopwith Camel. On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 8:16 AM Chuck Hast wrote: > In the medical and industrial fields RS-232 and RS-485 are > still alive and kicking. > > I have numerous machines that I service which still have > RS-232 ports on them. I see RS-232 and RS-485 on > industrial equipment. They were good solid standards and > I guess if it ain't broke don't break it. > > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 1:26 AM Derek Loree wrote: > > > On Thu, 2023-10-26 at 22:30 -0700, Russell Senior wrote: > > > I love RS232 and UARTs generally, I use them all the time and for me > > > they > > > will never go out of style, but I was wondering today about a > > > specific > > > marriage of the ancient and the modern, and it was hard to believe, > > > what > > > with USB being a pretty pervasive thing, they might exist, AND YET: > > > > > >https://www.startech.com/en-us/cards-adapters/pex1s953lp > > > > > > THEY DO. > > > > I've been using the two port version of this card for years. Very > > robust cards, never had one fail. I use them to control the drive > > motors in a medical device that helps doctors treat vertigo. USB > > devices literally burn up when we tried them in this application. > > > > > > > > Meanwhile, parallel SCSI (which I've been using all week) has pretty > > > much > > > vanished from the modern world. > > > > > > > Same with Firewire, cables and all, gone, not to be found anywhere. > > > > Derek Loree > > >
Re: [PLUG] Simultaneously horrifying and amazing!
In the medical and industrial fields RS-232 and RS-485 are still alive and kicking. I have numerous machines that I service which still have RS-232 ports on them. I see RS-232 and RS-485 on industrial equipment. They were good solid standards and I guess if it ain't broke don't break it. On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 1:26 AM Derek Loree wrote: > On Thu, 2023-10-26 at 22:30 -0700, Russell Senior wrote: > > I love RS232 and UARTs generally, I use them all the time and for me > > they > > will never go out of style, but I was wondering today about a > > specific > > marriage of the ancient and the modern, and it was hard to believe, > > what > > with USB being a pretty pervasive thing, they might exist, AND YET: > > > >https://www.startech.com/en-us/cards-adapters/pex1s953lp > > > > THEY DO. > > I've been using the two port version of this card for years. Very > robust cards, never had one fail. I use them to control the drive > motors in a medical device that helps doctors treat vertigo. USB > devices literally burn up when we tried them in this application. > > > > > Meanwhile, parallel SCSI (which I've been using all week) has pretty > > much > > vanished from the modern world. > > > > Same with Firewire, cables and all, gone, not to be found anywhere. > > Derek Loree >
Re: [PLUG] Simultaneously horrifying and amazing!
On Thu, 2023-10-26 at 22:30 -0700, Russell Senior wrote: > I love RS232 and UARTs generally, I use them all the time and for me > they > will never go out of style, but I was wondering today about a > specific > marriage of the ancient and the modern, and it was hard to believe, > what > with USB being a pretty pervasive thing, they might exist, AND YET: > > https://www.startech.com/en-us/cards-adapters/pex1s953lp > > THEY DO. I've been using the two port version of this card for years. Very robust cards, never had one fail. I use them to control the drive motors in a medical device that helps doctors treat vertigo. USB devices literally burn up when we tried them in this application. > > Meanwhile, parallel SCSI (which I've been using all week) has pretty > much > vanished from the modern world. > Same with Firewire, cables and all, gone, not to be found anywhere. Derek Loree
[PLUG] Simultaneously horrifying and amazing!
I love RS232 and UARTs generally, I use them all the time and for me they will never go out of style, but I was wondering today about a specific marriage of the ancient and the modern, and it was hard to believe, what with USB being a pretty pervasive thing, they might exist, AND YET: https://www.startech.com/en-us/cards-adapters/pex1s953lp THEY DO. Meanwhile, parallel SCSI (which I've been using all week) has pretty much vanished from the modern world. -- Russell Senior russ...@personaltelco.net
