Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Ben Koenig]

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 2:12 PM Michael Rasmussen  wrote:

> On 2021-04-23 08:23, a...@clueserver.org wrote:
> > Take it to PLUG-Talk.
>
> Ditto


Senior Stupid already made it clear he doesn't want to discuss the fact
that he mangled an email and then insulted me.


Nothing left to discuss. Such is life in the free software community.
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Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Michael Rasmussen]

On 2021-04-23 08:23, a...@clueserver.org wrote:

Take it to PLUG-Talk.


Ditto

---
  Michael Rasmussen, Portland Oregon
Be Appropriate && Follow Your Curiosity

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Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[alan]

> On Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 5:40 AM Russell Senior 
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 5:21 AM Ben Koenig  wrote:
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 6:53 PM Russell Senior
>> 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > I would note that there is a question mark at the end of the subject
>> > > line and not an exclamation mark. I think there is enough evidence
>> for
>> > > me to conclude the IRB made a mistake in deciding there were no
>> human
>> > > subjects to consider, even if there is some narrow rule that allowed
>> > > them to exempt the project. I don't know any of the mechanics of why
>> > > that mistake was made.
>> > >
>> >
>> > That is exactly why I called this out as Cancel Culture.
>> >
>> > Its not about being right or wrong, its about Due Process and the way
>> in
>> > which we learn from our mistakes.
>> >
>> > You are moving from accusation to execution without considering any
>> motive
>> > or the real cause of the problem. Whether or not you are correct is
>> > irrelevant.
>>
>> I understand you are bored and want to argue, but this is wrong. I do
>> know a little about IRB's and what their job is. I have no role in
>> executing anyone. The primary reason I posted this was that it was a
>> pretty important news item that I thought the PLUG community would
>> want to hear about (not least because the malicious patches involved
>> might be in a kernel we are running). The subject line was an
>> editorial comment on my part about how egregious a mistake I thought
>> it was, regardless of the specific mechanics or motives. You are free
>> to agree or disagree, with approximately equal impact as me
>> (unmeasurably small) on whether the IRB is fired or changes their
>> processes or continues without change.
>>
>
> You started the argument here, not me. You have no excuse for trying to
> gaslight me like this.
>
> I was in no way trying to argue or accuse you of anything. Going back to
> the original statement I made, I was simply pointing out that your choice
> of words for the subject line bore resemblance to cancel culture tactics.
> That is public record.
>
>
> Why you decided to take that as an argument against your opinions and
> experience is mystery to me. Anyone with a semblance of knowledge of
> english can see that I was simply pointing out a small part of the overall
> conversation.
>
>
> YOU blew it up into an attack on me. Put those reading glasses back on and
> try again.

Take it to PLUG-Talk.

Q: Why do programmers confuse Halloween and Christmas?
A: Because OCT 31 == DEC 25.

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Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[alan]

> On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 5:21 AM Ben Koenig  wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 6:53 PM Russell Senior 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > I would note that there is a question mark at the end of the subject
>> > line and not an exclamation mark. I think there is enough evidence for
>> > me to conclude the IRB made a mistake in deciding there were no human
>> > subjects to consider, even if there is some narrow rule that allowed
>> > them to exempt the project. I don't know any of the mechanics of why
>> > that mistake was made.
>> >
>>
>> That is exactly why I called this out as Cancel Culture.
>>
>> Its not about being right or wrong, its about Due Process and the way in
>> which we learn from our mistakes.
>>
>> You are moving from accusation to execution without considering any
>> motive
>> or the real cause of the problem. Whether or not you are correct is
>> irrelevant.
>
> I understand you are bored and want to argue, but this is wrong. I do
> know a little about IRB's and what their job is. I have no role in
> executing anyone. The primary reason I posted this was that it was a
> pretty important news item that I thought the PLUG community would
> want to hear about (not least because the malicious patches involved
> might be in a kernel we are running). The subject line was an
> editorial comment on my part about how egregious a mistake I thought
> it was, regardless of the specific mechanics or motives. You are free
> to agree or disagree, with approximately equal impact as me
> (unmeasurably small) on whether the IRB is fired or changes their
> processes or continues without change.

This should be moved over to PLUG-Talk.

Q: Why do programmers confuse Halloween and Christmas?
A: Because OCT 31 == DEC 25.

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Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Ben Koenig]

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 5:40 AM Russell Senior 
wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 5:21 AM Ben Koenig  wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 6:53 PM Russell Senior 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I would note that there is a question mark at the end of the subject
> > > line and not an exclamation mark. I think there is enough evidence for
> > > me to conclude the IRB made a mistake in deciding there were no human
> > > subjects to consider, even if there is some narrow rule that allowed
> > > them to exempt the project. I don't know any of the mechanics of why
> > > that mistake was made.
> > >
> >
> > That is exactly why I called this out as Cancel Culture.
> >
> > Its not about being right or wrong, its about Due Process and the way in
> > which we learn from our mistakes.
> >
> > You are moving from accusation to execution without considering any
> motive
> > or the real cause of the problem. Whether or not you are correct is
> > irrelevant.
>
> I understand you are bored and want to argue, but this is wrong. I do
> know a little about IRB's and what their job is. I have no role in
> executing anyone. The primary reason I posted this was that it was a
> pretty important news item that I thought the PLUG community would
> want to hear about (not least because the malicious patches involved
> might be in a kernel we are running). The subject line was an
> editorial comment on my part about how egregious a mistake I thought
> it was, regardless of the specific mechanics or motives. You are free
> to agree or disagree, with approximately equal impact as me
> (unmeasurably small) on whether the IRB is fired or changes their
> processes or continues without change.
>

You started the argument here, not me. You have no excuse for trying to
gaslight me like this.

I was in no way trying to argue or accuse you of anything. Going back to
the original statement I made, I was simply pointing out that your choice
of words for the subject line bore resemblance to cancel culture tactics.
That is public record.


Why you decided to take that as an argument against your opinions and
experience is mystery to me. Anyone with a semblance of knowledge of
english can see that I was simply pointing out a small part of the overall
conversation.


YOU blew it up into an attack on me. Put those reading glasses back on and
try again.
-Ben
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Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Russell Senior]

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 5:21 AM Ben Koenig  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 6:53 PM Russell Senior 
> wrote:
>
> > I would note that there is a question mark at the end of the subject
> > line and not an exclamation mark. I think there is enough evidence for
> > me to conclude the IRB made a mistake in deciding there were no human
> > subjects to consider, even if there is some narrow rule that allowed
> > them to exempt the project. I don't know any of the mechanics of why
> > that mistake was made.
> >
>
> That is exactly why I called this out as Cancel Culture.
>
> Its not about being right or wrong, its about Due Process and the way in
> which we learn from our mistakes.
>
> You are moving from accusation to execution without considering any motive
> or the real cause of the problem. Whether or not you are correct is
> irrelevant.

I understand you are bored and want to argue, but this is wrong. I do
know a little about IRB's and what their job is. I have no role in
executing anyone. The primary reason I posted this was that it was a
pretty important news item that I thought the PLUG community would
want to hear about (not least because the malicious patches involved
might be in a kernel we are running). The subject line was an
editorial comment on my part about how egregious a mistake I thought
it was, regardless of the specific mechanics or motives. You are free
to agree or disagree, with approximately equal impact as me
(unmeasurably small) on whether the IRB is fired or changes their
processes or continues without change.

-- 
Russell Senior
russ...@personaltelco.net
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Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Russell Senior]

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 5:21 AM Ben Koenig  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 6:53 PM Russell Senior 
> wrote:
>
> > I would note that there is a question mark at the end of the subject
> > line and not an exclamation mark. I think there is enough evidence for
> > me to conclude the IRB made a mistake in deciding there were no human
> > subjects to consider, even if there is some narrow rule that allowed
> > them to exempt the project. I don't know any of the mechanics of why
> > that mistake was made.
> >
>
> That is exactly why I called this out as Cancel Culture.
>
> Its not about being right or wrong, its about Due Process and the way in
> which we learn from our mistakes.
>
> You are moving from accusation to execution without considering any motive
> or the real cause of the problem. Whether or not you are correct is
> irrelevant.
>
>
> Simply put - UMN made a mistake and you jump to sentencing and execution
> before asking why they did it.
>
>
> How is that any different from demanding the immediate and unconditional
> expulsion of RMS based on a leaked email with no context?
>
>
> You are running the risk of firing the wrong people. While your intentions
> may be pure the way in which you act comes with significant risks. Cancel
> Culture has never been about being right or wrong - It is about making
> decisions based on nothing more than your own personal opinions.
>
>
> I could easily adopt your attitude and demand the immediate dissolution of
> the Ubuntu project. I've seen enough evidence to know that everyone working
> for Canonical should be fired ;)
> -Ben
>
>
>
> >
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Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Ben Koenig]

On Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 6:53 PM Russell Senior 
wrote:

> I would note that there is a question mark at the end of the subject
> line and not an exclamation mark. I think there is enough evidence for
> me to conclude the IRB made a mistake in deciding there were no human
> subjects to consider, even if there is some narrow rule that allowed
> them to exempt the project. I don't know any of the mechanics of why
> that mistake was made.
>

That is exactly why I called this out as Cancel Culture.

Its not about being right or wrong, its about Due Process and the way in
which we learn from our mistakes.

You are moving from accusation to execution without considering any motive
or the real cause of the problem. Whether or not you are correct is
irrelevant.


Simply put - UMN made a mistake and you jump to sentencing and execution
before asking why they did it.


How is that any different from demanding the immediate and unconditional
expulsion of RMS based on a leaked email with no context?


You are running the risk of firing the wrong people. While your intentions
may be pure the way in which you act comes with significant risks. Cancel
Culture has never been about being right or wrong - It is about making
decisions based on nothing more than your own personal opinions.


I could easily adopt your attitude and demand the immediate dissolution of
the Ubuntu project. I've seen enough evidence to know that everyone working
for Canonical should be fired ;)
-Ben



>
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Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Russell Senior]

I would note that there is a question mark at the end of the subject
line and not an exclamation mark. I think there is enough evidence for
me to conclude the IRB made a mistake in deciding there were no human
subjects to consider, even if there is some narrow rule that allowed
them to exempt the project. I don't know any of the mechanics of why
that mistake was made.





On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 7:20 AM Tomas Kuchta
 wrote:
>
> I tend to think that the subject of this thread is inappropriate,
> definitely judgemental, threatening, mob like mentality.
>
> So far, only one side has spoken. The other one has committed to
> investigate and report back.
>
> So, if we want to be fair, we should wait for facts. If we do not get
> answers in couple of weeks, then may be appropriate to call for somebody
> else's head...
>
> Hope it makes sense,
> Tomas
>
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 09:47 Paul Heinlein  wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 22 Apr 2021, Russell Senior wrote:
> >
> > > https://cse.umn.edu/cs/statement-cse-linux-kernel-research-april-21-2021
> >
> > One thing is certain: the web designers at The U* are certainly
> > committed to the school colors.
> >
> > --
> > Paul Heinlein
> > heinl...@madboa.com
> > 45.38° N, 122.59° W
> >
> > * My mom was an alum of the University of MN, so I've always known the
> > University of Minnesota as "The U." Plus, I did my undergraduate work
> > in the Twin Cities, where the nomenclature was heavily
> > reinforced.___
> > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> > PLUG mailing list
> > PLUG@pdxlinux.org
> > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
> >
> ___
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Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Ben Koenig]

On Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 7:20 AM Tomas Kuchta 
wrote:

> I tend to think that the subject of this thread is inappropriate,
> definitely judgemental, threatening, mob like mentality.
>
> So far, only one side has spoken. The other one has committed to
> investigate and report back.
>
> So, if we want to be fair, we should wait for facts. If we do not get
> answers in couple of weeks, then may be appropriate to call for somebody
> else's head...
>
> Hope it makes sense,
> Tomas
>

The "title" used for this thread is definitely in line with cancel culture
tactics.

That said, the thread itself is not in line with the subject and the
attitudes of both kernel maintainers and UMN leadership has been very
solution oriented.


Which is nice to see in the wake of the recent RMS circle jerking. Read the
entire thread before passing judgement.
-Ben


> On Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 09:47 Paul Heinlein  wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 22 Apr 2021, Russell Senior wrote:
> >
> > >
> https://cse.umn.edu/cs/statement-cse-linux-kernel-research-april-21-2021
> >
> > One thing is certain: the web designers at The U* are certainly
> > committed to the school colors.
> >
> > --
> > Paul Heinlein
> > heinl...@madboa.com
> > 45.38° N, 122.59° W
> >
> > * My mom was an alum of the University of MN, so I've always known the
> > University of Minnesota as "The U." Plus, I did my undergraduate work
> > in the Twin Cities, where the nomenclature was heavily
> > reinforced.___
> > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> > PLUG mailing list
> > PLUG@pdxlinux.org
> > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
> >
> ___
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> PLUG mailing list
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Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Tomas Kuchta]

I tend to think that the subject of this thread is inappropriate,
definitely judgemental, threatening, mob like mentality.

So far, only one side has spoken. The other one has committed to
investigate and report back.

So, if we want to be fair, we should wait for facts. If we do not get
answers in couple of weeks, then may be appropriate to call for somebody
else's head...

Hope it makes sense,
Tomas

On Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 09:47 Paul Heinlein  wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Apr 2021, Russell Senior wrote:
>
> > https://cse.umn.edu/cs/statement-cse-linux-kernel-research-april-21-2021
>
> One thing is certain: the web designers at The U* are certainly
> committed to the school colors.
>
> --
> Paul Heinlein
> heinl...@madboa.com
> 45.38° N, 122.59° W
>
> * My mom was an alum of the University of MN, so I've always known the
> University of Minnesota as "The U." Plus, I did my undergraduate work
> in the Twin Cities, where the nomenclature was heavily
> reinforced.___
> PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> PLUG mailing list
> PLUG@pdxlinux.org
> http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
>
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Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Paul Heinlein]

On Thu, 22 Apr 2021, Russell Senior wrote:


https://cse.umn.edu/cs/statement-cse-linux-kernel-research-april-21-2021


One thing is certain: the web designers at The U* are certainly 
committed to the school colors.


--
Paul Heinlein
heinl...@madboa.com
45.38° N, 122.59° W

* My mom was an alum of the University of MN, so I've always known the 
University of Minnesota as "The U." Plus, I did my undergraduate work 
in the Twin Cities, where the nomenclature was heavily reinforced.___
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Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Russell Senior]

The question they were asking is interesting, but (as someone said to
me this evening) it is sort of the equivalent of placing a bomb on an
airliner to see if it will be discovered before it explodes. Also, it
seems like the subjects of the experiment were human (users of the
software) and so the IRB was wrong to declare it didn't have human
subjects just because specific individuals were not targeted.

The main result seems to be that UMN affiliated contributors won't be
able to get their code accepted anymore with whatever psychological
advantages being associated with a benevolent institution might
normally have. You can't stop people from sending patches from a gmail
account, of course, but without the subtle assumption that it's a
friendly, warm-hearted contribution.

On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 9:21 PM Denis Heidtmann
 wrote:
>
> In reviewing some of the emails in the list there were statements that
>
> "A lot of these have already reached the stable trees. I can send you
> revert patches for stable by the end of today "
>
> Not being a coder I am not sure what "stable tree" means, but it could
> mean that some of this malicious code made it in.  If so, the thesis
> of the paper is confirmed.
> If they had submitted only one patch and it had been written with more
> skill, would damage have been done?
>
> I am not supporting the UMN approach, but it does appear to me that
> the behavior of the kernel group has changed as a result, not just in
> their dealings with the  UMN people.
>
> -Denis
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 8:03 PM Russell Senior 
> wrote:
>
> > The paper includes this line: "IRB [...] determined this is not human
> > research. We obtained a formal IRB-exempt letter"
> >
> > IRB stands for Institutional Review Board and any research institution
> > is going to have one. Here's the wikipedia page about IRBs in general:
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_review_board
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 5:06 PM Jason Barbier  wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, at 5:02 PM, Denis Heidtmann wrote:
> > > > PSU has a policy that requires admin. review of any experiments to be
> > > > conducted on humans.  That got some people in trouble for testing
> > > > publications' response to submitted articles using bogus stuff.  I
> > wonder
> > > > if the UNM has such a requirement, and, if so, I wonder if it was
> > followed.
> > > >
> > > > -Denis
> > >
> > > The answer is yes, and they have an ethics review board which was posted
> > on that email thread for GKH to toss an email to and let them know whats up.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 8:31 AM Ben Koenig 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 7:32 AM Ben Koenig 
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 7:19 AM Jason Barbier 
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, at 7:02 AM, Paul Heinlein wrote:
> > > > > >> > On Wed, 21 Apr 2021, Russell Senior wrote:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > >
> > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-nfs/yh%2ffm%2ftsbmczz...@kroah.com/
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > https://github.com/QiushiWu/QiushiWu.github.io/blob/main/papers/OpenSourceInsecurity.pdf
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Holy crap, way to step on it with golf shoes!
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > I wonder if anyone has ever written anything on the subject of
> > > > > >> > Patterns of Abuse and Criminality. This looks like a version of
> > > > > >> > gaslighting, but in a tech-community context.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > --
> > > > > >> > Paul Heinlein
> > > > > >> > heinl...@madboa.com 
> > > > > >> > 45.38° N, 122.59° W
> > > > > >> > ___
> > > > > >> > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> > > > > >> > PLUG mailing list
> > > > > >> > PLUG@pdxlinux.org 
> > > > > >> > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> To be fair reading the whole response from the umn address it
> > reads more
> > > > > >> like "Fuuu, the subject caught me and is blowing up my
> > doctoral
> > > > > >> thesis how do I save it!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > By accepting the test results for what they are?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > He set out to prove a theory that OSS is inherently insecure. He
> > tested
> > > > > > that theory.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Test results came back negative. The OSS community protected
> > itself from
> > > > > > malicious actors.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > Heyyy the pdf works when downloaded and viewed directly!
> > > > >
> > > > > But I still have trouble reading it. Maybe the CS team at UMN should
> > have a
> > > > > language arts major clean up the grammar before they start
> > recommending
> > > > > changes to the linux coc.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It IS a serious college project after all.
> > > > > -Ben
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > 

Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Russell Senior]

The paper includes this line: "IRB [...] determined this is not human
research. We obtained a formal IRB-exempt letter"

IRB stands for Institutional Review Board and any research institution
is going to have one. Here's the wikipedia page about IRBs in general:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_review_board

On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 5:06 PM Jason Barbier  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, at 5:02 PM, Denis Heidtmann wrote:
> > PSU has a policy that requires admin. review of any experiments to be
> > conducted on humans.  That got some people in trouble for testing
> > publications' response to submitted articles using bogus stuff.  I wonder
> > if the UNM has such a requirement, and, if so, I wonder if it was followed.
> >
> > -Denis
>
> The answer is yes, and they have an ethics review board which was posted on 
> that email thread for GKH to toss an email to and let them know whats up.
>
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 8:31 AM Ben Koenig  wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 7:32 AM Ben Koenig  wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 7:19 AM Jason Barbier  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, at 7:02 AM, Paul Heinlein wrote:
> > > >> > On Wed, 21 Apr 2021, Russell Senior wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-nfs/yh%2ffm%2ftsbmczz...@kroah.com/
> > > >> > >
> > > >>
> > > https://github.com/QiushiWu/QiushiWu.github.io/blob/main/papers/OpenSourceInsecurity.pdf
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Holy crap, way to step on it with golf shoes!
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I wonder if anyone has ever written anything on the subject of
> > > >> > Patterns of Abuse and Criminality. This looks like a version of
> > > >> > gaslighting, but in a tech-community context.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > --
> > > >> > Paul Heinlein
> > > >> > heinl...@madboa.com 
> > > >> > 45.38° N, 122.59° W
> > > >> > ___
> > > >> > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> > > >> > PLUG mailing list
> > > >> > PLUG@pdxlinux.org 
> > > >> > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >> To be fair reading the whole response from the umn address it reads 
> > > >> more
> > > >> like "Fuuu, the subject caught me and is blowing up my doctoral
> > > >> thesis how do I save it!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > By accepting the test results for what they are?
> > > >
> > > > He set out to prove a theory that OSS is inherently insecure. He tested
> > > > that theory.
> > > >
> > > > Test results came back negative. The OSS community protected itself from
> > > > malicious actors.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Heyyy the pdf works when downloaded and viewed directly!
> > >
> > > But I still have trouble reading it. Maybe the CS team at UMN should have 
> > > a
> > > language arts major clean up the grammar before they start recommending
> > > changes to the linux coc.
> > >
> > >
> > > It IS a serious college project after all.
> > > -Ben
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > >> PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> > > >> PLUG mailing list
> > > >> PLUG@pdxlinux.org
> > > >> http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plugi
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > ___
> > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> > > PLUG mailing list
> > > PLUG@pdxlinux.org
> > > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
> > >
> > ___
> > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> > PLUG mailing list
> > PLUG@pdxlinux.org
> > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
> >
> ___
> PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> PLUG mailing list
> PLUG@pdxlinux.org
> http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
___
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PLUG mailing list
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Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Jason Barbier]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, at 5:02 PM, Denis Heidtmann wrote:
> PSU has a policy that requires admin. review of any experiments to be
> conducted on humans.  That got some people in trouble for testing
> publications' response to submitted articles using bogus stuff.  I wonder
> if the UNM has such a requirement, and, if so, I wonder if it was followed.
> 
> -Denis

The answer is yes, and they have an ethics review board which was posted on 
that email thread for GKH to toss an email to and let them know whats up.

> 
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 8:31 AM Ben Koenig  wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 7:32 AM Ben Koenig  wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 7:19 AM Jason Barbier  wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, at 7:02 AM, Paul Heinlein wrote:
> > >> > On Wed, 21 Apr 2021, Russell Senior wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-nfs/yh%2ffm%2ftsbmczz...@kroah.com/
> > >> > >
> > >>
> > https://github.com/QiushiWu/QiushiWu.github.io/blob/main/papers/OpenSourceInsecurity.pdf
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Holy crap, way to step on it with golf shoes!
> > >> >
> > >> > I wonder if anyone has ever written anything on the subject of
> > >> > Patterns of Abuse and Criminality. This looks like a version of
> > >> > gaslighting, but in a tech-community context.
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Paul Heinlein
> > >> > heinl...@madboa.com 
> > >> > 45.38° N, 122.59° W
> > >> > ___
> > >> > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> > >> > PLUG mailing list
> > >> > PLUG@pdxlinux.org 
> > >> > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> To be fair reading the whole response from the umn address it reads more
> > >> like "Fuuu, the subject caught me and is blowing up my doctoral
> > >> thesis how do I save it!
> > >
> > >
> > > By accepting the test results for what they are?
> > >
> > > He set out to prove a theory that OSS is inherently insecure. He tested
> > > that theory.
> > >
> > > Test results came back negative. The OSS community protected itself from
> > > malicious actors.
> > >
> > >
> > Heyyy the pdf works when downloaded and viewed directly!
> >
> > But I still have trouble reading it. Maybe the CS team at UMN should have a
> > language arts major clean up the grammar before they start recommending
> > changes to the linux coc.
> >
> >
> > It IS a serious college project after all.
> > -Ben
> >
> >
> > >
> > > ___
> > >> PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> > >> PLUG mailing list
> > >> PLUG@pdxlinux.org
> > >> http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plugi
> > >>
> > >
> > ___
> > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> > PLUG mailing list
> > PLUG@pdxlinux.org
> > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
> >
> ___
> PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> PLUG mailing list
> PLUG@pdxlinux.org
> http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
> 
___
PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
PLUG mailing list
PLUG@pdxlinux.org
http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug

Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Denis Heidtmann]

PSU has a policy that requires admin. review of any experiments to be
conducted on humans.  That got some people in trouble for testing
publications' response to submitted articles using bogus stuff.  I wonder
if the UNM has such a requirement, and, if so, I wonder if it was followed.

-Denis

On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 8:31 AM Ben Koenig  wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 7:32 AM Ben Koenig  wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 7:19 AM Jason Barbier  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, at 7:02 AM, Paul Heinlein wrote:
> >> > On Wed, 21 Apr 2021, Russell Senior wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-nfs/yh%2ffm%2ftsbmczz...@kroah.com/
> >> > >
> >>
> https://github.com/QiushiWu/QiushiWu.github.io/blob/main/papers/OpenSourceInsecurity.pdf
> >> > >
> >> > > Holy crap, way to step on it with golf shoes!
> >> >
> >> > I wonder if anyone has ever written anything on the subject of
> >> > Patterns of Abuse and Criminality. This looks like a version of
> >> > gaslighting, but in a tech-community context.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Paul Heinlein
> >> > heinl...@madboa.com 
> >> > 45.38° N, 122.59° W
> >> > ___
> >> > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> >> > PLUG mailing list
> >> > PLUG@pdxlinux.org 
> >> > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
> >> >
> >>
> >> To be fair reading the whole response from the umn address it reads more
> >> like "Fuuu, the subject caught me and is blowing up my doctoral
> >> thesis how do I save it!
> >
> >
> > By accepting the test results for what they are?
> >
> > He set out to prove a theory that OSS is inherently insecure. He tested
> > that theory.
> >
> > Test results came back negative. The OSS community protected itself from
> > malicious actors.
> >
> >
> Heyyy the pdf works when downloaded and viewed directly!
>
> But I still have trouble reading it. Maybe the CS team at UMN should have a
> language arts major clean up the grammar before they start recommending
> changes to the linux coc.
>
>
> It IS a serious college project after all.
> -Ben
>
>
> >
> > ___
> >> PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> >> PLUG mailing list
> >> PLUG@pdxlinux.org
> >> http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plugi
> >>
> >
> ___
> PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> PLUG mailing list
> PLUG@pdxlinux.org
> http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
>
___
PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
PLUG mailing list
PLUG@pdxlinux.org
http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug

Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Ben Koenig]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 7:32 AM Ben Koenig  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 7:19 AM Jason Barbier  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, at 7:02 AM, Paul Heinlein wrote:
>> > On Wed, 21 Apr 2021, Russell Senior wrote:
>> >
>> > > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-nfs/yh%2ffm%2ftsbmczz...@kroah.com/
>> > >
>> https://github.com/QiushiWu/QiushiWu.github.io/blob/main/papers/OpenSourceInsecurity.pdf
>> > >
>> > > Holy crap, way to step on it with golf shoes!
>> >
>> > I wonder if anyone has ever written anything on the subject of
>> > Patterns of Abuse and Criminality. This looks like a version of
>> > gaslighting, but in a tech-community context.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul Heinlein
>> > heinl...@madboa.com 
>> > 45.38° N, 122.59° W
>> > ___
>> > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
>> > PLUG mailing list
>> > PLUG@pdxlinux.org 
>> > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
>> >
>>
>> To be fair reading the whole response from the umn address it reads more
>> like "Fuuu, the subject caught me and is blowing up my doctoral
>> thesis how do I save it!
>
>
> By accepting the test results for what they are?
>
> He set out to prove a theory that OSS is inherently insecure. He tested
> that theory.
>
> Test results came back negative. The OSS community protected itself from
> malicious actors.
>
>
Heyyy the pdf works when downloaded and viewed directly!

But I still have trouble reading it. Maybe the CS team at UMN should have a
language arts major clean up the grammar before they start recommending
changes to the linux coc.


It IS a serious college project after all.
-Ben


>
> ___
>> PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
>> PLUG mailing list
>> PLUG@pdxlinux.org
>> http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plugi
>>
>
___
PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
PLUG mailing list
PLUG@pdxlinux.org
http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug

Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Ben Koenig]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 7:19 AM Jason Barbier  wrote:

>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, at 7:02 AM, Paul Heinlein wrote:
> > On Wed, 21 Apr 2021, Russell Senior wrote:
> >
> > > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-nfs/yh%2ffm%2ftsbmczz...@kroah.com/
> > >
> https://github.com/QiushiWu/QiushiWu.github.io/blob/main/papers/OpenSourceInsecurity.pdf
> > >
> > > Holy crap, way to step on it with golf shoes!
> >
> > I wonder if anyone has ever written anything on the subject of
> > Patterns of Abuse and Criminality. This looks like a version of
> > gaslighting, but in a tech-community context.
> >
> > --
> > Paul Heinlein
> > heinl...@madboa.com 
> > 45.38° N, 122.59° W
> > ___
> > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> > PLUG mailing list
> > PLUG@pdxlinux.org 
> > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
> >
>
> To be fair reading the whole response from the umn address it reads more
> like "Fuuu, the subject caught me and is blowing up my doctoral
> thesis how do I save it!


By accepting the test results for what they are?

He set out to prove a theory that OSS is inherently insecure. He tested
that theory.

Test results came back negative. The OSS community protected itself from
malicious actors.



___
> PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> PLUG mailing list
> PLUG@pdxlinux.org
> http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
>
___
PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
PLUG mailing list
PLUG@pdxlinux.org
http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug

Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Jason Barbier]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, at 7:02 AM, Paul Heinlein wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Apr 2021, Russell Senior wrote:
> 
> > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-nfs/yh%2ffm%2ftsbmczz...@kroah.com/
> > https://github.com/QiushiWu/QiushiWu.github.io/blob/main/papers/OpenSourceInsecurity.pdf
> >
> > Holy crap, way to step on it with golf shoes!
> 
> I wonder if anyone has ever written anything on the subject of 
> Patterns of Abuse and Criminality. This looks like a version of 
> gaslighting, but in a tech-community context.
> 
> -- 
> Paul Heinlein
> heinl...@madboa.com 
> 45.38° N, 122.59° W
> ___
> PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> PLUG mailing list
> PLUG@pdxlinux.org 
> http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
> 

To be fair reading the whole response from the umn address it reads more like 
"Fuuu, the subject caught me and is blowing up my doctoral thesis how 
do I save it!"
___
PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
PLUG mailing list
PLUG@pdxlinux.org
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Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Ben Koenig]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 7:02 AM Paul Heinlein  wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Apr 2021, Russell Senior wrote:
>
> > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-nfs/yh%2ffm%2ftsbmczz...@kroah.com/
> >
> https://github.com/QiushiWu/QiushiWu.github.io/blob/main/papers/OpenSourceInsecurity.pdf
> >
> > Holy crap, way to step on it with golf shoes!
>
> I wonder if anyone has ever written anything on the subject of
> Patterns of Abuse and Criminality. This looks like a version of
> gaslighting, but in a tech-community context.
>

The entire github repo magically appeared 2 months ago. And the readme is
basically just him bragging about all the prestigious things he has done.


I'm tempted to give the university a call just to find out if he is real :-D
-Ben


> --
> Paul Heinlein
> heinl...@madboa.com
> 45.38° N, 122.59° W___
> PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> PLUG mailing list
> PLUG@pdxlinux.org
> http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
>
___
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Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Paul Heinlein]

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021, Russell Senior wrote:


https://lore.kernel.org/linux-nfs/yh%2ffm%2ftsbmczz...@kroah.com/
https://github.com/QiushiWu/QiushiWu.github.io/blob/main/papers/OpenSourceInsecurity.pdf

Holy crap, way to step on it with golf shoes!


I wonder if anyone has ever written anything on the subject of 
Patterns of Abuse and Criminality. This looks like a version of 
gaslighting, but in a tech-community context.


--
Paul Heinlein
heinl...@madboa.com
45.38° N, 122.59° W___
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Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Russell Senior]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 6:46 AM Ben Koenig  wrote:
>
> I tried to read the github doc from umn but the webpage made my phone
> freeze up.

Works for me, maybe try on a real computer?
___
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Re: [PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Ben Koenig]

I tried to read the github doc from umn but the webpage made my phone
freeze up.


Now I feel excluded from the convo :,-(
-Ben

On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 6:33 AM Russell Senior 
wrote:

> https://lore.kernel.org/linux-nfs/yh%2ffm%2ftsbmczz...@kroah.com/
>
> https://github.com/QiushiWu/QiushiWu.github.io/blob/main/papers/OpenSourceInsecurity.pdf
>
> Holy crap, way to step on it with golf shoes!
>
> --
> Russell Senior
> russ...@personaltelco.net
> ___
> PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org
> PLUG mailing list
> PLUG@pdxlinux.org
> http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
>
___
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[PLUG] Fire the umn.edu IRB?

[Russell Senior]

https://lore.kernel.org/linux-nfs/yh%2ffm%2ftsbmczz...@kroah.com/
https://github.com/QiushiWu/QiushiWu.github.io/blob/main/papers/OpenSourceInsecurity.pdf

Holy crap, way to step on it with golf shoes!

-- 
Russell Senior
russ...@personaltelco.net
___
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