Re: [PLUG] PLUG Constituent Poll 2021
On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 12:45 AM Michael Dexter wrote: > On 9/27/21 6:19 AM, Daniel Ortiz wrote: > >> help when the person's computer doesn't have an OS yet? > >> > > There is a way, but it is less than ideal and may need correction by > people > > who see flaws in the way, but here is a way it could go. > > Easy. Dell iDRAC Enterprise. > > > > Michael No need to duck. Very viable solution, albeit pricey and limited in scope. There are also generic KVM Over IP Switches such as the Lantronix Spider, which has an optional power control unit. These work quite well for server and desktop systems ( not great, but good enough for most cases ), but again, pricey. And they don’t work for laptops. On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 3:39 PM John Jason Jordan wrote: > A virtual clinic is a possible alternative, but I can foresee some > difficulties. For example, quite often at the clinics we have someone > bring in a computer and want to install Linux on it. Usually the person > has already tried and failed. Usually we are successful, but getting > the job done often requires sitting in front of the screen. How can we > help when the person's computer doesn't have an OS yet? A very valid question. How often does this scenario come up? Is this user a Linux neophyte, an expert, or somewhere in between? The expert already knows Linux, likely has spare hardware, and probably knows how to set up a remote assistance environment ( video, audio, lights, etc. ) using that spare hardware. The neophyte presents a more challenging scenario. Ultimately, what we would want to know is, what does the user really want to accomplish? Some possible goals and possible solutions: - Learn bash: use WSL on Windows 10; open a terminal on a Mac; run Cloud 9 on AWS; run AI notebooks on GCP. - Learn programming: use just about any cloud provider. - Learn Linux GUI: get a Shells.com account; use a VM on an existing system, e.g. VirtualBox on a Mac. - Learn how to install Linux: use a VM on an existing system, e.g. VirtualBox on a Mac. If you already have VirtualBox, have a look at using Vagrant with it. - Install a particular distro of Linux on some particular type of physical hardware: This state can be very challenging, especially with very old or very new or broken hardware. It would be desirable for the user to get familiar with Linux first and/or know how to set up a remote assistance environment with spare hardware. Those are just a small set of possible goals and solutions. With the possible exception of the last item, everything else can be done remotely and screen shared, e.g. via Zoom, Tmux. I’d be happy to work with anyone who would like to try out edge cases and explore possible remote solutions. Regards, - Robert
Re: [PLUG] PLUG Constituent Poll 2021
On 9/27/21 6:19 AM, Daniel Ortiz wrote: help when the person's computer doesn't have an OS yet? There is a way, but it is less than ideal and may need correction by people who see flaws in the way, but here is a way it could go. Easy. Dell iDRAC Enterprise. Michael
Re: [PLUG] PLUG Constituent Poll 2021
Something I didn't have is they may need help with booting from a usb. That way would use not Chrome Remote Desktop. It would be a shorter procedure with Zoom to have the screen shared before restarting; a smartphone to show the screen when necessary with a pdf guide shared, and the helper guiding. Sidenote: Zoom lets you share your entire desktop. Have you clicked Screen after you clicked Share Screen? On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 8:19 AM Daniel Ortiz wrote: > How can we >> help when the person's computer doesn't have an OS yet? >> > There is a way, but it is less than ideal and may need correction by > people who see flaws in the way, but here is a way it could go. > > One possible list of Equipment: > Laptop or Desktop to install it on. > Laptop or Desktop for the person with knowledge. > A smartphone for the person who is trying to install one. > Chrome Remote Desktop > Zoom > A pdf guide after a certain point > > 1. Both people both connect. > 2. He/She does the necessary procedure to set up Chrome Remote Desktop and > send the link for you to access his screen. > 3. The helper guides the person through the process and takes over when > necessary (the person installing should give permission for that first) > 4. After a certain where the app stops working due to it being restarted > to get prepared to install the os, the helper puts up a pdf on steps to do > next, and guides them through the rest of the process while the other > person should be using their smartphone to show them the screen when > necessary. > 5. OS installed or something went wrong which might make the person not > want to try out Linux. > > There is also the option of giving them the files to put on a usb flash > drive and boot from there, or just doing the part that ends at restart for > them which may reduce the chance of something going wrong. >
Re: [PLUG] PLUG Constituent Poll 2021
> > How can we > help when the person's computer doesn't have an OS yet? > There is a way, but it is less than ideal and may need correction by people who see flaws in the way, but here is a way it could go. One possible list of Equipment: Laptop or Desktop to install it on. Laptop or Desktop for the person with knowledge. A smartphone for the person who is trying to install one. Chrome Remote Desktop Zoom A pdf guide after a certain point 1. Both people both connect. 2. He/She does the necessary procedure to set up Chrome Remote Desktop and send the link for you to access his screen. 3. The helper guides the person through the process and takes over when necessary (the person installing should give permission for that first) 4. After a certain where the app stops working due to it being restarted to get prepared to install the os, the helper puts up a pdf on steps to do next, and guides them through the rest of the process while the other person should be using their smartphone to show them the screen when necessary. 5. OS installed or something went wrong which might make the person not want to try out Linux. There is also the option of giving them the files to put on a usb flash drive and boot from there, or just doing the part that ends at restart for them which may reduce the chance of something going wrong.
Re: [PLUG] PLUG Constituent Poll 2021
-Ben ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Thursday, September 23rd, 2021 at 4:01 PM, Michael Dexter wrote: > On 9/23/21 6:22 AM, Daniel Ortiz wrote: > > > Another suggestion you could consider doing is making the meetings into a > > > > YouTube live and putting the meeting link in the description. It might not > > > > solve your problem of low attendance, but it is an idea than can be > > > > scrutinized. It also doesn't have to be YouTube live if the price of > > > > helping Google get more money, and be more dominant is one that won't be > > > > paid. Also, some people might interact through live comments, so including > > > > their interaction in the meetings could also be considered. > > I'll say this... one of the single things that surprised me most this > > year with an online developer summit was then they pushed from Zoom to > > YouTube (Live?) and I could pause to take a phone call, and catch back > > up to realtime. They scheduled ten minute breaks, put that on the > > screen, and was remarkably smooth. I will look into that. Not that we > > have breaks, but it actually solved a problem! > > Michael The youtube live thing is kind of cool but I'm never really sure how "live" it is since the interface is kind of slim on those details. News companies have been using it lately and I wonder if any other video streaming services have something similar. Unfortunately Odyssee wandered off into college bro memeland so I'm hesitant to suggest it even though it's a nice system.
Re: [PLUG] PLUG Constituent Poll 2021
On 9/23/21 6:22 AM, Daniel Ortiz wrote: Another suggestion you could consider doing is making the meetings into a YouTube live and putting the meeting link in the description. It might not solve your problem of low attendance, but it is an idea than can be scrutinized. It also doesn't have to be YouTube live if the price of helping Google get more money, and be more dominant is one that won't be paid. Also, some people might interact through live comments, so including their interaction in the meetings could also be considered. I'll say this... one of the single things that surprised me most this year with an online developer summit was then they pushed from Zoom to YouTube (Live?) and I could pause to take a phone call, and catch back up to realtime. They scheduled ten minute breaks, put that on the screen, and was remarkably smooth. I will look into that. Not that we have breaks, but it actually solved a problem! Michael
Re: [PLUG] PLUG Constituent Poll 2021
Another suggestion you could consider doing is making the meetings into a YouTube live and putting the meeting link in the description. It might not solve your problem of low attendance, but it is an idea than can be scrutinized. It also doesn't have to be YouTube live if the price of helping Google get more money, and be more dominant is one that won't be paid. Also, some people might interact through live comments, so including their interaction in the meetings could also be considered. On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 11:25 PM Tomas Kuchta wrote: > I love technical topics, even when it is outside of my core experience. > They are great for discovering new knowledge and tech. > > If I could have a wish it would be more of hyperscale/cloud infrastructure > talks. What are the trends and useful mainstream tech, how to practically > and easily maintain small time, but scalable, disposable and movable > (across clos providers) services. > > One can buy Linux laptop/desktop from bunch of reputable vendors these days > and they work. The remote virtual infrastructure is where the most > innovation happens these days. And it is supper useful to most people who > need to have or create stuff on the web. Even old school things like having > old email/web/storage/git/... server are possible and affordable again on > budget (both money and time) when deployed the right way. > > Best, Tomas >
Re: [PLUG] PLUG Constituent Poll 2021
I love technical topics, even when it is outside of my core experience. They are great for discovering new knowledge and tech. If I could have a wish it would be more of hyperscale/cloud infrastructure talks. What are the trends and useful mainstream tech, how to practically and easily maintain small time, but scalable, disposable and movable (across clos providers) services. One can buy Linux laptop/desktop from bunch of reputable vendors these days and they work. The remote virtual infrastructure is where the most innovation happens these days. And it is supper useful to most people who need to have or create stuff on the web. Even old school things like having old email/web/storage/git/... server are possible and affordable again on budget (both money and time) when deployed the right way. Best, Tomas
Re: [PLUG] PLUG Constituent Poll 2021
The use of online meetings for troubleshooting is not an either/or question. Some topics require in person assistance. Some topics can be easily handled through via chat. Some people can't show up at Free Geek on the weekend. Instead of approaching this in a one-size-fits-all manner, lets try to think of this as an opportunity to expand. A hybrid approach will better meet everyone's schedule and generate more group activity in general. And honestly.. some of you might be surprised what kind of issues can be resolved with voice chat. -Ben Sent from ProtonMail mobile Original Message On Sep 22, 2021, 2:59 PM, wes wrote: > +1 to this. If anyone knows of another potential venue, even temporarily > until Free Geek is available again, please speak up. > > I know of places in Vancouver we could use, but I doubt that works for most > people. > > -wes > > On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 2:47 PM Russell Senior > wrote: > >> I think the primary obstacle to an in-person clinic right now is that >> FreeGeek is still mostly closed. At least, not hosting events, afaik. >> >> On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 2:38 PM John Jason Jordan wrote: >> > >> > On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:46:56 -0700 >> > Michael Dexter dijo: >> > >> > >On 9/22/21 5:52 AM, Rich Shepard wrote: >> > >> In the late 1990s and early 2000s I attended PLUG meetings in the PSU >> > >> Library and the clinics at the schools. Both were where I learned a >> > >> lot about linux. >> > >> >> > >> Now the meetings are computer-specific and highly technical. I cannot >> > >> benefit from that information so I don't tune in. >> > > >> > >Let's make this actionable. >> > > >> > >What would an online clinic look like and who would want to facilitate >> > >it? Assuming you aren't seeking help with the chicken and egg issue of >> > >trying to get your A/V working to attend the meeting! >> > >> > The metro area is now over 60% vaccinated and schools are re-opening, >> > so I've been considering a query here if we might be able to revive the >> > in-person clinics. >> > >> > A virtual clinic is a possible alternative, but I can foresee some >> > difficulties. For example, quite often at the clinics we have someone >> > bring in a computer and want to install Linux on it. Usually the person >> > has already tried and failed. Usually we are successful, but getting >> > the job done often requires sitting in front of the screen. How can we >> > help when the person's computer doesn't have an OS yet? >> > >> > There are lots of other software problems that are hard to troubleshoot >> > without seeing the user's screen. I have used Zoom a few times, but I >> > don't know if there is a way to make my full screen viewable by others, >> > i.e., seeing error messages or terminal windows that are not part of >> > the browser window. >> > >> > I might add that we also frequently have hardware issues that require >> > screwdrivers and other tools to deal with. Does Zoom have a feature >> > where I can stick my hand through the Zoom tab in my browser and have >> > it come out on another user's screen, complete with a screwdriver? >> > >> > I'm not suggesting that a virtual clinic is not useful, but limitations >> > are something to consider. >>
Re: [PLUG] PLUG Constituent Poll 2021
+1 to this. If anyone knows of another potential venue, even temporarily until Free Geek is available again, please speak up. I know of places in Vancouver we could use, but I doubt that works for most people. -wes On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 2:47 PM Russell Senior wrote: > I think the primary obstacle to an in-person clinic right now is that > FreeGeek is still mostly closed. At least, not hosting events, afaik. > > On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 2:38 PM John Jason Jordan wrote: > > > > On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:46:56 -0700 > > Michael Dexter dijo: > > > > >On 9/22/21 5:52 AM, Rich Shepard wrote: > > >> In the late 1990s and early 2000s I attended PLUG meetings in the PSU > > >> Library and the clinics at the schools. Both were where I learned a > > >> lot about linux. > > >> > > >> Now the meetings are computer-specific and highly technical. I cannot > > >> benefit from that information so I don't tune in. > > > > > >Let's make this actionable. > > > > > >What would an online clinic look like and who would want to facilitate > > >it? Assuming you aren't seeking help with the chicken and egg issue of > > >trying to get your A/V working to attend the meeting! > > > > The metro area is now over 60% vaccinated and schools are re-opening, > > so I've been considering a query here if we might be able to revive the > > in-person clinics. > > > > A virtual clinic is a possible alternative, but I can foresee some > > difficulties. For example, quite often at the clinics we have someone > > bring in a computer and want to install Linux on it. Usually the person > > has already tried and failed. Usually we are successful, but getting > > the job done often requires sitting in front of the screen. How can we > > help when the person's computer doesn't have an OS yet? > > > > There are lots of other software problems that are hard to troubleshoot > > without seeing the user's screen. I have used Zoom a few times, but I > > don't know if there is a way to make my full screen viewable by others, > > i.e., seeing error messages or terminal windows that are not part of > > the browser window. > > > > I might add that we also frequently have hardware issues that require > > screwdrivers and other tools to deal with. Does Zoom have a feature > > where I can stick my hand through the Zoom tab in my browser and have > > it come out on another user's screen, complete with a screwdriver? > > > > I'm not suggesting that a virtual clinic is not useful, but limitations > > are something to consider. >
Re: [PLUG] PLUG Constituent Poll 2021
On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 2:46 PM Paul Heinlein wrote: > > On Wed, 22 Sep 2021, John Jason Jordan wrote: > > > A virtual clinic is a possible alternative, but I can foresee some > > difficulties. For example, quite often at the clinics we have someone > > bring in a computer and want to install Linux on it. Usually the person > > has already tried and failed. Usually we are successful, but getting > > the job done often requires sitting in front of the screen. How can we > > help when the person's computer doesn't have an OS yet? > > > > There are lots of other software problems that are hard to troubleshoot > > without seeing the user's screen. I have used Zoom a few times, but I > > don't know if there is a way to make my full screen viewable by others, > > i.e., seeing error messages or terminal windows that are not part of > > the browser window. > > > > I might add that we also frequently have hardware issues that require > > screwdrivers and other tools to deal with. Does Zoom have a feature > > where I can stick my hand through the Zoom tab in my browser and have > > it come out on another user's screen, complete with a screwdriver? > > The other limitation of Zoom (or Webex or Teams) meetings is that > there is only One Conversation. In real life, a group meeting allows > side chats or walking away from an uninteresting conversation. Virtual > meetings, as far as I know, don't have the technology to support > conversations between subsets of the larger group. There are solutions to this, including gathertown and workadventu.re. Your avatar wanders around and it pops up a video conference when you are close enough to others. > > -- > Paul Heinlein > heinl...@madboa.com > 45.38° N, 122.59° W
Re: [PLUG] PLUG Constituent Poll 2021
I think the primary obstacle to an in-person clinic right now is that FreeGeek is still mostly closed. At least, not hosting events, afaik. On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 2:38 PM John Jason Jordan wrote: > > On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:46:56 -0700 > Michael Dexter dijo: > > >On 9/22/21 5:52 AM, Rich Shepard wrote: > >> In the late 1990s and early 2000s I attended PLUG meetings in the PSU > >> Library and the clinics at the schools. Both were where I learned a > >> lot about linux. > >> > >> Now the meetings are computer-specific and highly technical. I cannot > >> benefit from that information so I don't tune in. > > > >Let's make this actionable. > > > >What would an online clinic look like and who would want to facilitate > >it? Assuming you aren't seeking help with the chicken and egg issue of > >trying to get your A/V working to attend the meeting! > > The metro area is now over 60% vaccinated and schools are re-opening, > so I've been considering a query here if we might be able to revive the > in-person clinics. > > A virtual clinic is a possible alternative, but I can foresee some > difficulties. For example, quite often at the clinics we have someone > bring in a computer and want to install Linux on it. Usually the person > has already tried and failed. Usually we are successful, but getting > the job done often requires sitting in front of the screen. How can we > help when the person's computer doesn't have an OS yet? > > There are lots of other software problems that are hard to troubleshoot > without seeing the user's screen. I have used Zoom a few times, but I > don't know if there is a way to make my full screen viewable by others, > i.e., seeing error messages or terminal windows that are not part of > the browser window. > > I might add that we also frequently have hardware issues that require > screwdrivers and other tools to deal with. Does Zoom have a feature > where I can stick my hand through the Zoom tab in my browser and have > it come out on another user's screen, complete with a screwdriver? > > I'm not suggesting that a virtual clinic is not useful, but limitations > are something to consider.
Re: [PLUG] PLUG Constituent Poll 2021
On Wed, 22 Sep 2021, John Jason Jordan wrote: A virtual clinic is a possible alternative, but I can foresee some difficulties. For example, quite often at the clinics we have someone bring in a computer and want to install Linux on it. Usually the person has already tried and failed. Usually we are successful, but getting the job done often requires sitting in front of the screen. How can we help when the person's computer doesn't have an OS yet? There are lots of other software problems that are hard to troubleshoot without seeing the user's screen. I have used Zoom a few times, but I don't know if there is a way to make my full screen viewable by others, i.e., seeing error messages or terminal windows that are not part of the browser window. I might add that we also frequently have hardware issues that require screwdrivers and other tools to deal with. Does Zoom have a feature where I can stick my hand through the Zoom tab in my browser and have it come out on another user's screen, complete with a screwdriver? The other limitation of Zoom (or Webex or Teams) meetings is that there is only One Conversation. In real life, a group meeting allows side chats or walking away from an uninteresting conversation. Virtual meetings, as far as I know, don't have the technology to support conversations between subsets of the larger group. -- Paul Heinlein heinl...@madboa.com 45.38° N, 122.59° W
Re: [PLUG] PLUG Constituent Poll 2021
On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:46:56 -0700 Michael Dexter dijo: >On 9/22/21 5:52 AM, Rich Shepard wrote: >> In the late 1990s and early 2000s I attended PLUG meetings in the PSU >> Library and the clinics at the schools. Both were where I learned a >> lot about linux. >> >> Now the meetings are computer-specific and highly technical. I cannot >> benefit from that information so I don't tune in. > >Let's make this actionable. > >What would an online clinic look like and who would want to facilitate >it? Assuming you aren't seeking help with the chicken and egg issue of >trying to get your A/V working to attend the meeting! The metro area is now over 60% vaccinated and schools are re-opening, so I've been considering a query here if we might be able to revive the in-person clinics. A virtual clinic is a possible alternative, but I can foresee some difficulties. For example, quite often at the clinics we have someone bring in a computer and want to install Linux on it. Usually the person has already tried and failed. Usually we are successful, but getting the job done often requires sitting in front of the screen. How can we help when the person's computer doesn't have an OS yet? There are lots of other software problems that are hard to troubleshoot without seeing the user's screen. I have used Zoom a few times, but I don't know if there is a way to make my full screen viewable by others, i.e., seeing error messages or terminal windows that are not part of the browser window. I might add that we also frequently have hardware issues that require screwdrivers and other tools to deal with. Does Zoom have a feature where I can stick my hand through the Zoom tab in my browser and have it come out on another user's screen, complete with a screwdriver? I'm not suggesting that a virtual clinic is not useful, but limitations are something to consider.
Re: [PLUG] PLUG Constituent Poll 2021
Building on what Rich mentioned, I'd like to see the PLUG Clinic expand into the online space. The deep dive presentations are great but sometimes you want to focus down a single technical issue. Email isnt always the most effective way to troubleshoot a problem. -Ben Original Message On Sep 22, 2021, 5:52 AM, Rich Shepard < rshep...@appl-ecosys.com> wrote: On Wed, 22 Sep 2021, Michael Dexter wrote: > Is this a mirror on the broader situation, or is this not what you want > from PLUG? Michael, I'm not a computer professional or work in a business where computers are the end. For my business they are a means to an end, a critical tool. In the late 1990s and early 2000s I attended PLUG meetings in the PSU Library and the clinics at the schools. Both were where I learned a lot about linux. Now the meetings are computer-specific and highly technical. I cannot benefit from that information so I don't tune in. However, the mail lists are extremely important and valuable and I am grateful to all of you who make the time and effort to maintain them. Stay well, Rich
Re: [PLUG] PLUG Constituent Poll 2021
On 9/22/21 5:52 AM, Rich Shepard wrote: In the late 1990s and early 2000s I attended PLUG meetings in the PSU Library and the clinics at the schools. Both were where I learned a lot about linux. Now the meetings are computer-specific and highly technical. I cannot benefit from that information so I don't tune in. Let's make this actionable. What would an online clinic look like and who would want to facilitate it? Assuming you aren't seeking help with the chicken and egg issue of trying to get your A/V working to attend the meeting! Michael
Re: [PLUG] PLUG Constituent Poll 2021
On 9/22/21 6:48 AM, Ben Koenig wrote: Building on what Rich mentioned, I'd like to see the PLUG Clinic expand into the online space. The deep dive presentations are great but sometimes you want to focus down a single technical issue. Email isnt always the most effective way to troubleshoot a problem. +1 -- Regards, Dick Steffens
Re: [PLUG] PLUG Constituent Poll 2021
On Wed, 22 Sep 2021, Michael Dexter wrote: Is this a mirror on the broader situation, or is this not what you want from PLUG? Michael, I'm not a computer professional or work in a business where computers are the end. For my business they are a means to an end, a critical tool. In the late 1990s and early 2000s I attended PLUG meetings in the PSU Library and the clinics at the schools. Both were where I learned a lot about linux. Now the meetings are computer-specific and highly technical. I cannot benefit from that information so I don't tune in. However, the mail lists are extremely important and valuable and I am grateful to all of you who make the time and effort to maintain them. Stay well, Rich
[PLUG] PLUG Constituent Poll 2021
Hello all, I hope you're all doing great. The "this should be all behind us in three or so months" pandemic has certainly gone on a wee longer than expected. This has obviously meant a hard stop to in-person PLUG meetings with only the vaguest idea of when in-person events will return as schools open up. That said, in case you've missed it, there have been ten months of online PLUG meetings beginning in December, 2020: https://pdxlinux.org/ Speakers have been from as "close" as Portland/Hillsboro and as "far" as Denmark, Brazil, and Armenia. Attendance however, has been relatively low and the lists quiet. Is this a mirror on the broader situation, or is this not what you want from PLUG? Either way, what would you like from PLUG while we are not able to meet in person? Broadly and in detail. This is your meeting. I simply find speakers and arrange for packets to fly around during a window of time. Thank you, Michael Dexter PLUG Volunteer
