Re: [PLUG] adding network name alias
On Mon, 15 Feb 2021, Keith Lofstrom wrote: On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 09:45:05PM -0800, Russell Senior wrote: I can understand it making sense in the context of a server with multiple interfaces. We used to have occasional problems with ethernet enumeration when we were using recycled PCs as gateway routers. I just don't see why that kind of corner case drove adoption for a problem that didn't exist for 99% of users. Seems to me like "predictable" names ought to be an opt-in rather than an opt-out. Thanks to all for the useful and informative replies. I'm grateful for Russell's helpful grub configuration advice. Still - it would cost almost nothing if one device had TWO names in /dev/, BOTH eth0 AND enp12s0. Perhaps a deft application of the cluestick will encourage whoever made the PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames decision to rewrite the boot loader to create (and log) BOTH names, allowing end users to choose the name they prefer. I can remember the ancient days, when source-empowered users made Linux do what they wanted, rather than Linux making users conform to the changing whims of a powerful and unaccountable elite. I don't mind people pissing in their soup until they like the flavor - as long as they don't piss in MY soup. If you really want to name your device 'Ethyl' then have at it: https://community.mellanox.com/s/article/howto-change-network-interface-name-in-linux-permanently Frankly, I've never dived too deeply into udev, but that looks like the place to go. -- Paul Heinlein heinl...@madboa.com 45°38' N, 122°6' W___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] adding network name alias
On 2/15/21 6:46 PM, Keith Lofstrom wrote: I can remember the ancient days, when source-empowered users made Linux do what they wanted, rather than Linux making users conform to the changing whims of a powerful and unaccountable elite. I don't mind people pissing in their soup until they like the flavor - as long as they don't piss in MY soup. Keith That's why we have 100+ different distributions of the linux kernel - Everyone likes their soup a different flavor. Luckily there are still a handful of distros that stay on the path you describe and I don't see them going away any time soon. I'm even writing this email from the ancient past as a source-empowered user... Slackware 15 - Real Soon Now... -Ben ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] adding network name alias
in the output of "ip link help", I see: ip link property add dev DEVICE [ altname NAME .. ] ip link property del dev DEVICE [ altname NAME .. ] That looks like what maybe you are looking for. On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 6:59 PM Russell Senior wrote: > > I don't see the altname in a Ubuntu 20.04 with a 5.4.x kernel. > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 6:59 PM Russell Senior > wrote: > > > > Fwiw, on my Ubuntu 20.04 with the hwe kernel (5.8.x), I see an altname: > > > > russell@frieda:~$ ip link show dev enp4s0 > > > > 3: eth1: mtu 1500 qdisc fq_codel > > state DOWN mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1000 > > link/ether 00:23:54:xx:xx:xx brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > > altname enp4s0 > > > > So, what you are asking for does seem to exist. > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 6:51 PM Keith Lofstrom wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 09:45:05PM -0800, Russell Senior wrote: > > > > I can understand it making sense in the context of a server with > > > > multiple interfaces. We used to have occasional problems with ethernet > > > > enumeration when we were using recycled PCs as gateway routers. I just > > > > don't see why that kind of corner case drove adoption for a problem > > > > that didn't exist for 99% of users. Seems to me like "predictable" > > > > names ought to be an opt-in rather than an opt-out. > > > > > > Thanks to all for the useful and informative replies. > > > I'm grateful for Russell's helpful grub configuration > > > advice. > > > > > > Still - it would cost almost nothing if one device had > > > TWO names in /dev/, BOTH eth0 AND enp12s0. Perhaps a > > > deft application of the cluestick will encourage whoever > > > made the PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames decision to > > > rewrite the boot loader to create (and log) BOTH names, > > > allowing end users to choose the name they prefer. > > > > > > I can remember the ancient days, when source-empowered > > > users made Linux do what they wanted, rather than Linux > > > making users conform to the changing whims of a powerful > > > and unaccountable elite. I don't mind people pissing in > > > their soup until they like the flavor - as long as they > > > don't piss in MY soup. > > > > > > Keith > > > > > > -- > > > Keith Lofstrom kei...@keithl.com > > > ___ > > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > > PLUG mailing list > > > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > > > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] adding network name alias
I don't see the altname in a Ubuntu 20.04 with a 5.4.x kernel. On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 6:59 PM Russell Senior wrote: > > Fwiw, on my Ubuntu 20.04 with the hwe kernel (5.8.x), I see an altname: > > russell@frieda:~$ ip link show dev enp4s0 > > 3: eth1: mtu 1500 qdisc fq_codel > state DOWN mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1000 > link/ether 00:23:54:xx:xx:xx brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > altname enp4s0 > > So, what you are asking for does seem to exist. > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 6:51 PM Keith Lofstrom wrote: > > > > On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 09:45:05PM -0800, Russell Senior wrote: > > > I can understand it making sense in the context of a server with > > > multiple interfaces. We used to have occasional problems with ethernet > > > enumeration when we were using recycled PCs as gateway routers. I just > > > don't see why that kind of corner case drove adoption for a problem > > > that didn't exist for 99% of users. Seems to me like "predictable" > > > names ought to be an opt-in rather than an opt-out. > > > > Thanks to all for the useful and informative replies. > > I'm grateful for Russell's helpful grub configuration > > advice. > > > > Still - it would cost almost nothing if one device had > > TWO names in /dev/, BOTH eth0 AND enp12s0. Perhaps a > > deft application of the cluestick will encourage whoever > > made the PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames decision to > > rewrite the boot loader to create (and log) BOTH names, > > allowing end users to choose the name they prefer. > > > > I can remember the ancient days, when source-empowered > > users made Linux do what they wanted, rather than Linux > > making users conform to the changing whims of a powerful > > and unaccountable elite. I don't mind people pissing in > > their soup until they like the flavor - as long as they > > don't piss in MY soup. > > > > Keith > > > > -- > > Keith Lofstrom kei...@keithl.com > > ___ > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > PLUG mailing list > > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] adding network name alias
Fwiw, on my Ubuntu 20.04 with the hwe kernel (5.8.x), I see an altname: russell@frieda:~$ ip link show dev enp4s0 3: eth1: mtu 1500 qdisc fq_codel state DOWN mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1000 link/ether 00:23:54:xx:xx:xx brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff altname enp4s0 So, what you are asking for does seem to exist. On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 6:51 PM Keith Lofstrom wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 09:45:05PM -0800, Russell Senior wrote: > > I can understand it making sense in the context of a server with > > multiple interfaces. We used to have occasional problems with ethernet > > enumeration when we were using recycled PCs as gateway routers. I just > > don't see why that kind of corner case drove adoption for a problem > > that didn't exist for 99% of users. Seems to me like "predictable" > > names ought to be an opt-in rather than an opt-out. > > Thanks to all for the useful and informative replies. > I'm grateful for Russell's helpful grub configuration > advice. > > Still - it would cost almost nothing if one device had > TWO names in /dev/, BOTH eth0 AND enp12s0. Perhaps a > deft application of the cluestick will encourage whoever > made the PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames decision to > rewrite the boot loader to create (and log) BOTH names, > allowing end users to choose the name they prefer. > > I can remember the ancient days, when source-empowered > users made Linux do what they wanted, rather than Linux > making users conform to the changing whims of a powerful > and unaccountable elite. I don't mind people pissing in > their soup until they like the flavor - as long as they > don't piss in MY soup. > > Keith > > -- > Keith Lofstrom kei...@keithl.com > ___ > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > PLUG mailing list > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] adding network name alias
On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 09:45:05PM -0800, Russell Senior wrote: > I can understand it making sense in the context of a server with > multiple interfaces. We used to have occasional problems with ethernet > enumeration when we were using recycled PCs as gateway routers. I just > don't see why that kind of corner case drove adoption for a problem > that didn't exist for 99% of users. Seems to me like "predictable" > names ought to be an opt-in rather than an opt-out. Thanks to all for the useful and informative replies. I'm grateful for Russell's helpful grub configuration advice. Still - it would cost almost nothing if one device had TWO names in /dev/, BOTH eth0 AND enp12s0. Perhaps a deft application of the cluestick will encourage whoever made the PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames decision to rewrite the boot loader to create (and log) BOTH names, allowing end users to choose the name they prefer. I can remember the ancient days, when source-empowered users made Linux do what they wanted, rather than Linux making users conform to the changing whims of a powerful and unaccountable elite. I don't mind people pissing in their soup until they like the flavor - as long as they don't piss in MY soup. Keith -- Keith Lofstrom kei...@keithl.com ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] adding network name alias
On Mon, 15 Feb 2021, Ben Koenig wrote: They are trying to make sure that ethernet ports are predictably labeled. This means they want to look at the back of the hardware and identify eth0 without the use of software. Most devices are assigned labels in linux as they are found and the order in which they are found is often different from how they are arranged on the computer. There are also situations in which the order can change after a reboot which throws a wrench into everything. Ben, Got it. Thanks. Looks like a solution in search of a problem. Rich ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] adding network name alias
They are trying to make sure that ethernet ports are predictably labeled. This means they want to look at the back of the hardware and identify eth0 without the use of software. Most devices are assigned labels in linux as they are found and the order in which they are found is often different from how they are arranged on the computer. There are also situations in which the order can change after a reboot which throws a wrench into everything. The example of this is a server with 4 ethernet ports lined up in a row, but when linux sees them in software the order gets jumbled. If you were too boot up slackware on one of these servers you might see something like this.. Port 1 - eth1 Port 2 - eth0 Port 3 - eth3 Port 4 - eth2 clearly the ethX names make no sense given the physical labeling on the back panel of the server. As a system builder, you are supposed to take extra steps to set things in stone but end users typically only have 1 or 2 ports so it doesn't matter. It's just stupid because like Russel said it only affects a small portion of the total linux user base and from what I'm reading their solution doesn't even do anything useful because systemd is still going to provide wildly different results from one system to the next. In fact, the only real change here is a loss of portability which was the original gripe in this thread. If Keith rewrites his scripts to use the 'enp2s0' naming convention those scripts will fail if he moves to a system where the ports show as "eno1". On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 5:35 AM Rich Shepard wrote: > On Sun, 14 Feb 2021, Ben Koenig wrote: > > > Problem remains unsolved. Whoever funded the development of this feature > > should probably ask for their money back. Unless of course their goal was > > to destabilize the Linux platform, in which case, Good Job! > > Ben, > > As a curious non-computer professional I ask, what is the problem that this > networking port numbering issue intends to solve? > > In my small network each desktop and laptop has a single Ethernet port and > the switch and router have numbered ports. Where's the source of the > unpredictability and why does it matter? > > Looking forward to learning, > > Rich > ___ > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > PLUG mailing list > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] adding network name alias
On Sun, 14 Feb 2021, Ben Koenig wrote: Problem remains unsolved. Whoever funded the development of this feature should probably ask for their money back. Unless of course their goal was to destabilize the Linux platform, in which case, Good Job! Ben, As a curious non-computer professional I ask, what is the problem that this networking port numbering issue intends to solve? In my small network each desktop and laptop has a single Ethernet port and the switch and router have numbered ports. Where's the source of the unpredictability and why does it matter? Looking forward to learning, Rich ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] adding network name alias
I can understand it making sense in the context of a server with multiple interfaces. We used to have occasional problems with ethernet enumeration when we were using recycled PCs as gateway routers. I just don't see why that kind of corner case drove adoption for a problem that didn't exist for 99% of users. Seems to me like "predictable" names ought to be an opt-in rather than an opt-out. -- Russell Senior russ...@personaltelco.net On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 9:37 PM Ben Koenig wrote: > > Just some thoughts... If I'm reading the document on freedesktop.org > correctly then this new system does not actually solve the problem it > claims to be solving. Specifically this part here: > > > "...The following different naming schemes for network interfaces are > now supported by udev natively: > > 1. Names incorporating Firmware/BIOS provided index numbers for > on-board devices (example: eno1) > 2. Names incorporating Firmware/BIOS provided PCI Express hotplug slot > index numbers (example: ens1) > 3. Names incorporating physical/geographical location of the connector > of the hardware (example: enp2s0) > 4. Names incorporating the interfaces's MAC address (example: > enx78e7d1ea46da) > 5. Classic, unpredictable kernel-native ethX naming (example: eth0) > > By default, systemd v197 will now name interfaces following policy 1) if > that information from the firmware is applicable and available, falling > back to 2) if that information from the firmware is applicable and > available, falling back to 3) if applicable, falling back to 5) in all > other cases. Policy 4) is not used by default, but is available if the > user chooses so." > > > End quote. The whole problem is that the eth# is designated by the order > in which hardware is enumerated. This is unpredictable. However, relying > on the firmware/BIOS to define index numbers and falling back if not > properly defined is also unpredictable. Not only will this change from > one hardware configuration to the next but it is also subject to change > for a very large number of different reasons. > > > They are essentially removing an unpredictable system and replacing it > with another unpredictable system. I would argue that the old way is > actually better because of the simplicity of how it decides. Going with > the new process you now have to ask an additional question about the > nature of your hardware and such information may not be readily available. > > > Problem remains unsolved. Whoever funded the development of this feature > should probably ask for their money back. Unless of course their goal > was to destablize the Linux platform, in which case, Good Job! > > -Ben > > > > On 2/14/21 1:00 PM, Chuck Hast wrote: > > I too have never figured out what was gained by going to > > "predictable names" as far as I am concerned it is the > > definition of oxymoron. I always knew what eth0 or eth1 > > or whatever the original names were, these things though > > on a given machine will USUALLY come up the same but > > they change from machine to machine. I have 3 machines > > here and all 3 of them have different names for eth0 > > > > As they say in Costa Rica "predictable names" turas... > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 8:33 PM Russell Senior > > wrote: > > > >> https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames/ > >> > >> Given the plenitude of schemes (!) that are supported, this system > >> deserves the word "predictable" about as much as USB deserves the word > >> "universal". > >> > >> On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 6:28 PM Russell Senior > >> wrote: > There are ways to rename the interface back to eth0, but > I assume this breaks other things, > >>> It doesn't break anything. I routinely turn off the silly "predictable" > >> names. > >>> I use the technique of adding: > >>> > >>> GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="net.ifnames=0" > >>> > >>> to my /etc/default/grub file, and after running: > >>> > >>> sudo update-grub2 (or equivalent) you are good for the long haul. > >> ___ > >> PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > >> PLUG mailing list > >> PLUG@pdxlinux.org > >> http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > >> > > > ___ > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > PLUG mailing list > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] adding network name alias
Just some thoughts... If I'm reading the document on freedesktop.org correctly then this new system does not actually solve the problem it claims to be solving. Specifically this part here: "...The following different naming schemes for network interfaces are now supported by udev natively: 1. Names incorporating Firmware/BIOS provided index numbers for on-board devices (example: eno1) 2. Names incorporating Firmware/BIOS provided PCI Express hotplug slot index numbers (example: ens1) 3. Names incorporating physical/geographical location of the connector of the hardware (example: enp2s0) 4. Names incorporating the interfaces's MAC address (example: enx78e7d1ea46da) 5. Classic, unpredictable kernel-native ethX naming (example: eth0) By default, systemd v197 will now name interfaces following policy 1) if that information from the firmware is applicable and available, falling back to 2) if that information from the firmware is applicable and available, falling back to 3) if applicable, falling back to 5) in all other cases. Policy 4) is not used by default, but is available if the user chooses so." End quote. The whole problem is that the eth# is designated by the order in which hardware is enumerated. This is unpredictable. However, relying on the firmware/BIOS to define index numbers and falling back if not properly defined is also unpredictable. Not only will this change from one hardware configuration to the next but it is also subject to change for a very large number of different reasons. They are essentially removing an unpredictable system and replacing it with another unpredictable system. I would argue that the old way is actually better because of the simplicity of how it decides. Going with the new process you now have to ask an additional question about the nature of your hardware and such information may not be readily available. Problem remains unsolved. Whoever funded the development of this feature should probably ask for their money back. Unless of course their goal was to destablize the Linux platform, in which case, Good Job! -Ben On 2/14/21 1:00 PM, Chuck Hast wrote: I too have never figured out what was gained by going to "predictable names" as far as I am concerned it is the definition of oxymoron. I always knew what eth0 or eth1 or whatever the original names were, these things though on a given machine will USUALLY come up the same but they change from machine to machine. I have 3 machines here and all 3 of them have different names for eth0 As they say in Costa Rica "predictable names" turas... On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 8:33 PM Russell Senior wrote: https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames/ Given the plenitude of schemes (!) that are supported, this system deserves the word "predictable" about as much as USB deserves the word "universal". On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 6:28 PM Russell Senior wrote: There are ways to rename the interface back to eth0, but I assume this breaks other things, It doesn't break anything. I routinely turn off the silly "predictable" names. I use the technique of adding: GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="net.ifnames=0" to my /etc/default/grub file, and after running: sudo update-grub2 (or equivalent) you are good for the long haul. ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] adding network name alias
I too have never figured out what was gained by going to "predictable names" as far as I am concerned it is the definition of oxymoron. I always knew what eth0 or eth1 or whatever the original names were, these things though on a given machine will USUALLY come up the same but they change from machine to machine. I have 3 machines here and all 3 of them have different names for eth0 As they say in Costa Rica "predictable names" turas... On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 8:33 PM Russell Senior wrote: > > https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames/ > > Given the plenitude of schemes (!) that are supported, this system > deserves the word "predictable" about as much as USB deserves the word > "universal". > > On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 6:28 PM Russell Senior > wrote: > > > > > There are ways to rename the interface back to eth0, but > > > I assume this breaks other things, > > > > It doesn't break anything. I routinely turn off the silly "predictable" > names. > > > > I use the technique of adding: > > > > GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="net.ifnames=0" > > > > to my /etc/default/grub file, and after running: > > > > sudo update-grub2 (or equivalent) you are good for the long haul. > ___ > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > PLUG mailing list > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > -- Chuck Hast -- KP4DJT -- I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Ph 4:13 KJV Todo lo puedo en Cristo que me fortalece. Fil 4:13 RVR1960 ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] adding network name alias
https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames/ Given the plenitude of schemes (!) that are supported, this system deserves the word "predictable" about as much as USB deserves the word "universal". On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 6:28 PM Russell Senior wrote: > > > There are ways to rename the interface back to eth0, but > > I assume this breaks other things, > > It doesn't break anything. I routinely turn off the silly "predictable" names. > > I use the technique of adding: > > GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="net.ifnames=0" > > to my /etc/default/grub file, and after running: > > sudo update-grub2 (or equivalent) you are good for the long haul. ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] adding network name alias
> There are ways to rename the interface back to eth0, but > I assume this breaks other things, It doesn't break anything. I routinely turn off the silly "predictable" names. I use the technique of adding: GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="net.ifnames=0" to my /etc/default/grub file, and after running: sudo update-grub2 (or equivalent) you are good for the long haul. ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
[PLUG] adding network name alias
Is there a way to add an alias name for an ethernet interface, while keeping the system assigned name (visible with tools like "ip") ? As I upgrade my machines from ancient distros, one irritation is the renaming of the first and only ethernet interface from the simple name "eth0" to enp6s0 (on machine A) or enp12s0 (on machine B) et cetera ... not consistent between machines. That makes some of my old shell scripts fail, which I've used on multiple machines for decades. I'd rather not "learn a new trick" if I can safely use the old one. There are ways to rename the interface back to eth0, but I assume this breaks other things, and that the rename process may be removed from future distros for that reason. So: * Is there a reliable ip name aliasing technique that ADDS * a name alias that I choose (like eth0) to an ethernet * interface IN ADDITION TO the charmingly human-hostile * name chosen by the Linux Fashion Gods? Examples please. Keith ( I'd like you to meet my daughter "df12s0", named "Ethel" at birth by my ex-wife ) -- Keith Lofstrom kei...@keithl.com ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
