[libreoffice-projects] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: Workflow between dev, UX and l10n teams
Hi :) Yeh i think Sophie did such a brilliant job of summarising all the points that no-one had anything to argue against. My main concern was about automating the bits that could be automated in some sensible way - preferably some way that each language could select to opt into or out of. In wiki-editing people are encouraged to write a summary, like a subject-line in an email, for changes beyond just a couple of characters. Something like that might help with the automation. I really liked the point about having some way of identifying trivial but frequent changes and minor grammer corrections that most translators will already have dealt with in order to make sense in their own language(s). There was a lot of other interesting things in Sophie's post but i just agree with all of them and that makes it difficult to discuss ;( It seems like just about everyone here feels the same way. Regards from Tom :) On 26 January 2015 at 09:32, Sveinn í Felli s...@fellsnet.is wrote: Þann mán 26.jan 2015 09:25, skrifaði Mihovil Stanić: Not sure what can we add here? You summed it up nicely in those 3 points. As far as I'm concerned, en_us can be changed/improved as much as anyone wants... only if they provide script for automatic update for all other affected languages. New strings - OK Edited strings with changed meaning, fixed typos - OK Cosmetic changes (~ to _ or Status to Status: or ... to … or those different quote styles I don't even have on my keyboard) and anything similliar - NOT OK if you don't script it for all languages Cosmetic changes (Big brown fox - Big Brown Fox) - NOT OK at all, change just for en_us, don't change my strings and don't even notify me you did it in en_us May I add here: XML/HTML entities and such (a href... to link) - NOT OK, scripted for all languages (if possible) Sveinn í Felli Mihovil 26.01.2015 u 09:33, Sophie je napisao/la: To conclude, what l10n team would like to see is: - a review process of the strings before they are committed and make sure they respect the en_US standards (capitals, grammar, punctuation, typography). Maybe adding the Gnome HIG book to our pages [like 2] if not already. - if there is a way to script changes, script them otherwise wait until there is a script available to commit them - any time there are heavy changes that pop up in someone's mind (like changing ... for …) discuss it with the l10n team before committing those changes. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: projects+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/projects/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-projects] Re: Workflow between dev, UX and l10n teams
Hi Sophie, Mihovil, Mihovil Stanić píše v Po 26. 01. 2015 v 10:25 +0100: Cosmetic changes (~ to _ or Status to Status: or ... to … or those different quote styles I don't even have on my keyboard) and anything similliar - NOT OK if you don't script it for all languages Cosmetic changes (Big brown fox - Big Brown Fox) - NOT OK at all, change just for en_us, don't change my strings and don't even notify me you did it in en_us I see 2 problems here: 1) There is no tool that would detect these trivial changes, and would act accordingly. 2) The texts for translations are updated in big 'code' drops, without possibility for translators to affect the process in any way - for them it is too late. Regarding 1) - I thought that Pootle is detecting the trivial changes some way, and offering the original translation. Is it not? What can be done to improve that, so that for translators it is just a matter of checking; not a matter of translating? [Or even what you suggest - that it would just update the source strings without touching the translations?] Regarding 2) - I'm glad that you say that the strings will be now getting to Pootle immediately after the code / string changes in master. I think it is important that the translators will be able to deal with the changes immediately, not several months later, so that they can cooperate, and not only react. In general, I don't think that setting extremely strict rules works, unless you have means how to enforce them - like via a commit hook or so (and it is extremely unpopular way to do things). It is always much better to communicate - if you see a developer who commits a change that causes you grief, please _do_ tell _him/her_ immediately, and - if possible - in a friendly way. I'm sure he/she will do much better the next time. Unfortunately I did not see any signs of notice that this or that change was problematic for localization on the development mailing list - were there such warnings there? Like commit XY caused AB - please don't do such things, unless we agree how to do that effectively / without pain? Or was it impossible so far because the strings in Pootle were not synced with master? Also - should we have a 'Localization' recurring topic in the ESC? Who would be the right representative there, please? All the best, Kendy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: projects+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/projects/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-projects] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: Workflow between dev, UX and l10n teams
2015-01-26 12:15 GMT+01:00 Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com: Hi :) Hi Tom! Yes that suggestion was put forwards in the previous thread Good! And thank you for telling me that. and i still think it is an excellent idea - or at least has a lot of merit. I absolutely agree ;-). I seem to remember there were excellent reasons why it might be unworkable I am curious to see those reasons. Guess I will have to browse through the discussion to find it. But it is rather long, so I might not do that right now. but i'm not sure if they really are total blockers. I can't see how they could be total blockers. LibreOffice comes in hundreds of languages, so this would just be a new language like any other, and adding new languages has never seemed to be a big problem before. There could even still be a language-simplistic version of LibreOffice with only the unpolished source code keys used and no translation to polished en-us (if anybody prefer such a version?), but people that want the language to be polished and correct would just pick up the en-us translation like everybody else picks up the translation for their own local language. Why should en-us have any special status in the construction of the final product? It doesn't solve the problems with adding colons etc. to existing strings – changes like that should of course still be automated. But it would solve problems resulting from changes in style, correction of non-semantic typos, etc. And everybody working in Pootle could still add the polished and correct en-us translation as one of their alternative source languages (you can do that in the settings [1]) and we could all therefore still use the polished, correct en-us translation as the basis of our translations if we prefer that over the more coarse, non-polished key strings from the source code. Of course I might be repeating arguments that have already been stated in the earlier discussion. If anyone can find the right part of the original discussion (perhaps because they know what to search for because they remember the discussion) they are more than welcome to point it out to me. [1]: https://translations.documentfoundation.org/accounts/edit/ Regards from Jesper Regards from Tom :) On 26 January 2015 at 10:52, Jesper Hertel jesper.her...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Sophie and everybody else, Well I didn't answer as I didn't feel like finding out what the projects@ list was and joining that list to be able to join the discussion there. I will answer here. I did not read the whole previous discussion but did anyone suggest to add a new en-us translation language in Pootle and let that be the place where all non-semantic changes to the en-us strings happen? That way the current strings in the source code will turn into mere translation keys written in en-us. The final en-us polishing will then happen in the translation files just like any other language and will of course not affect any of the other languages. Any semantic change should of course still happen in the keys, i.e. the source code, but non-semantic changes should be prohibited there and instead made in the en-us translation in Pootle. This might be something obvious that you already talked a lot about, but I just want to make sure this option isn't overlooked. Jesper Den 26/01/2015 09.34 skrev Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com: Hi, Resending as there was no answer to the proposals :) Cheers Sophie Le 19/01/2015 11:03, Sophie a écrit : Hi all, [Please follow-up the discussion on projects@ list to keep the history of the thread there and ease the discussion, thanks :-)] I would like to open a discussion about the way developers team, UX team and l10n team should interact and work together. There has been a heavy discussion [see this thread 1] during this round of translation. The l10n team was a bit frustrated that there were again so many changes in the en_US version that does not concern the l10n versions (like adding colon at the end or capitals in the middle of the strings). Each time, it seems part of this could be automated or a reflection on how to avoid messing the l10n work should have been introduced before those changes are committed. For example, if I decide to change FR localization to have sentence capitalization in the menu entries, none of the 100 other localizations won't and shouldn't be affected. It should be the same for en_US version or if really impossible, try to find a solution that lower the impact on all localizations. None of the l10n teams is against changing or correcting the UI of the en_US version and none is against the natural evolution of the suite. What is not bearable is when you have 100 000 changes in en_US and only a 1/3 concerns all the other languages and it is repeated over the branches. We are trying to change our
[libreoffice-projects] Re: Workflow between dev, UX and l10n teams
Hi Kendy, Le 26/01/2015 15:43, Jan Holesovsky a écrit : Hi Sophie, Mihovil, Mihovil Stanić píše v Po 26. 01. 2015 v 10:25 +0100: Cosmetic changes (~ to _ or Status to Status: or ... to … or those different quote styles I don't even have on my keyboard) and anything similliar - NOT OK if you don't script it for all languages Cosmetic changes (Big brown fox - Big Brown Fox) - NOT OK at all, change just for en_us, don't change my strings and don't even notify me you did it in en_us I see 2 problems here: 1) There is no tool that would detect these trivial changes, and would act accordingly. 2) The texts for translations are updated in big 'code' drops, without possibility for translators to affect the process in any way - for them it is too late. Regarding 1) - I thought that Pootle is detecting the trivial changes some way, and offering the original translation. Is it not? What can be done to improve that, so that for translators it is just a matter of checking; not a matter of translating? [Or even what you suggest - that it would just update the source strings without touching the translations?] Pootle will show you a modified string, even if it doesn't affect your translation you will have to validate the string again to have it on a translated state. Also we don't all work on Pootle, several of us are working off line and Pootle is only a repository for our files. That's why we were thinking of a en_US version as a real language and different from the sources and also about scripting changes when possible (like the substitution of ~ by _) Regarding 2) - I'm glad that you say that the strings will be now getting to Pootle immediately after the code / string changes in master. I think it is important that the translators will be able to deal with the changes immediately, not several months later, so that they can cooperate, and not only react. yes, that's much better, even if we have to be cautious about the workflow. In general, I don't think that setting extremely strict rules works, unless you have means how to enforce them - like via a commit hook or so (and it is extremely unpopular way to do things). It is always much better to communicate - if you see a developer who commits a change that causes you grief, please _do_ tell _him/her_ immediately, and - if possible - in a friendly way. I'm sure he/she will do much better the next time. Translators are for most of them non technical people and will not see a commit, but only the result on Pootle, sometimes months later. In the same way the developer who is doing tons of changes for en_US is invited to discuss them with the l10n team :) Unfortunately I did not see any signs of notice that this or that change was problematic for localization on the development mailing list - were there such warnings there? Like commit XY caused AB - please don't do such things, unless we agree how to do that effectively / without pain? Or was it impossible so far because the strings in Pootle were not synced with master? Yes, I think it was too late and when the l10n team is at work, it's the rush i.e RC time for developers, so not the best period to discuss hot topics ;) That's why I've waited to open this discussion. Also, even if I've discussed as much as possible about l10n on issues concerning UI changes, it's a lot of work to follow each commit that could have an effect. Sharing the effort between developers/UX/l10n teams should be possible. As we follow Gnome HIG, adding it as pre-requisite for UI changes/adds may prevent to have to rewrite dialogs for example. Also - should we have a 'Localization' recurring topic in the ESC? Who would be the right representative there, please? Maybe not as a recurring topic, but something that should be in mind of UX team and developers when they commit or check for commits that have a huge impact on l10n. Cheers Sophie -- Sophie Gautier sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org Tel:+33683901545 Co-founder - Release coordinator The Document Foundation -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: projects+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/projects/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-projects] Re: Workflow between dev, UX and l10n teams
Hi Kendy, Le 26/01/2015 16:40, Jan Holesovsky a écrit : Hi Sophie, Sophie píše v Po 26. 01. 2015 v 16:19 +0100: Pootle will show you a modified string, even if it doesn't affect your translation you will have to validate the string again to have it on a translated state. Also we don't all work on Pootle, several of us are working off line and Pootle is only a repository for our files. But the offline files are taken from Pootle too - right? So if fixes are done at the time of uploading to Pootle, everybody gets them - correct? yes, I'll have a meeting with Dwayne (Pootle developer) during Fosdem and will discuss with him about that. That's why we were thinking of a en_US version as a real language and different from the sources and But at some stage this will have to apply to the sources - and at that time, it will be even worse than now :-( I'm afraid having en_US as a separate language will make the situation worse, not better. Yes, I'm not sure either also about scripting changes when possible (like the substitution of ~ by _) Sure - so I think this was something that could have been automatized with a trivial script; when this was noticed for the first time, please? Pity that it was not brought to the ESC as a problem... It was brought on the dev list, but when the l10n team discovered it, it was too late. Cloph has already scripted several changes, but he can't do it all. Translators are for most of them non technical people and will not see a commit, but only the result on Pootle, sometimes months later. The months later is the problem, not the non-technicality :-) It is enough to send something happened yesterday - please check what's up; similarly to how people are checking the daily builds. that will be possible now that some of us are translating on master Also - should we have a 'Localization' recurring topic in the ESC? Who would be the right representative there, please? Maybe not as a recurring topic, but something that should be in mind of UX team and developers when they commit or check for commits that have a huge impact on l10n. Well - if it's not recurring, it's easy to forget ;-) Also I think it will be more effective to discuss this there - are you able to join this Thursday? Thanks for the invitation and yes, let me know the time and I'll join. Cheers Sophie -- Sophie Gautier sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org Tel:+33683901545 Co-founder - Release coordinator The Document Foundation -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: projects+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/projects/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-projects] AskBot without third-party logon provider
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[libreoffice-projects] Re: Workflow between dev, UX and l10n teams
Hi Sophie, Sophie píše v Po 26. 01. 2015 v 16:19 +0100: Pootle will show you a modified string, even if it doesn't affect your translation you will have to validate the string again to have it on a translated state. Also we don't all work on Pootle, several of us are working off line and Pootle is only a repository for our files. But the offline files are taken from Pootle too - right? So if fixes are done at the time of uploading to Pootle, everybody gets them - correct? That's why we were thinking of a en_US version as a real language and different from the sources and But at some stage this will have to apply to the sources - and at that time, it will be even worse than now :-( I'm afraid having en_US as a separate language will make the situation worse, not better. also about scripting changes when possible (like the substitution of ~ by _) Sure - so I think this was something that could have been automatized with a trivial script; when this was noticed for the first time, please? Pity that it was not brought to the ESC as a problem... Translators are for most of them non technical people and will not see a commit, but only the result on Pootle, sometimes months later. The months later is the problem, not the non-technicality :-) It is enough to send something happened yesterday - please check what's up; similarly to how people are checking the daily builds. Also - should we have a 'Localization' recurring topic in the ESC? Who would be the right representative there, please? Maybe not as a recurring topic, but something that should be in mind of UX team and developers when they commit or check for commits that have a huge impact on l10n. Well - if it's not recurring, it's easy to forget ;-) Also I think it will be more effective to discuss this there - are you able to join this Thursday? All the best, Kendy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: projects+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/projects/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-projects] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: Workflow between dev, UX and l10n teams
Hi Sophie and everybody else, Well I didn't answer as I didn't feel like finding out what the projects@ list was and joining that list to be able to join the discussion there. I will answer here. I did not read the whole previous discussion but did anyone suggest to add a new en-us translation language in Pootle and let that be the place where all non-semantic changes to the en-us strings happen? That way the current strings in the source code will turn into mere translation keys written in en-us. The final en-us polishing will then happen in the translation files just like any other language and will of course not affect any of the other languages. Any semantic change should of course still happen in the keys, i.e. the source code, but non-semantic changes should be prohibited there and instead made in the en-us translation in Pootle. This might be something obvious that you already talked a lot about, but I just want to make sure this option isn't overlooked. Jesper Den 26/01/2015 09.34 skrev Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com: Hi, Resending as there was no answer to the proposals :) Cheers Sophie Le 19/01/2015 11:03, Sophie a écrit : Hi all, [Please follow-up the discussion on projects@ list to keep the history of the thread there and ease the discussion, thanks :-)] I would like to open a discussion about the way developers team, UX team and l10n team should interact and work together. There has been a heavy discussion [see this thread 1] during this round of translation. The l10n team was a bit frustrated that there were again so many changes in the en_US version that does not concern the l10n versions (like adding colon at the end or capitals in the middle of the strings). Each time, it seems part of this could be automated or a reflection on how to avoid messing the l10n work should have been introduced before those changes are committed. For example, if I decide to change FR localization to have sentence capitalization in the menu entries, none of the 100 other localizations won't and shouldn't be affected. It should be the same for en_US version or if really impossible, try to find a solution that lower the impact on all localizations. None of the l10n teams is against changing or correcting the UI of the en_US version and none is against the natural evolution of the suite. What is not bearable is when you have 100 000 changes in en_US and only a 1/3 concerns all the other languages and it is repeated over the branches. We are trying to change our workflow to work on master instead of branches. That will allow us to review the strings earlier (to leverage heavy unneeded changes if possible) and have more time to localize. But that will work only if each taking part of the changes take care of the others. To conclude, what l10n team would like to see is: - a review process of the strings before they are committed and make sure they respect the en_US standards (capitals, grammar, punctuation, typography). Maybe adding the Gnome HIG book to our pages [like 2] if not already. - if there is a way to script changes, script them otherwise wait until there is a script available to commit them - any time there are heavy changes that pop up in someone's mind (like changing ... for …) discuss it with the l10n team before committing those changes. I know it may lower the enthusiasm of some contributors, but it will regain the one of our l10n teams for sure :) [1] http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice-l10n-Workflow-based-on-master-tt4131453.html#a4132459 [2] https://developer.gnome.org/hig-book/3.12/design-text-labels.html.en Cheers Sophie -- Sophie Gautier sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org Tel:+33683901545 Co-founder - Release coordinator The Document Foundation -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: projects+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/projects/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-projects] Workflow between dev, UX and l10n teams
Hi Sophie, OK for me to work on master translation. On 19/01/2015 08:03, Sophie wrote: To conclude, what l10n team would like to see is: - a review process of the strings before they are committed and make sure they respect the en_US standards (capitals, grammar, punctuation, typography). Maybe adding the Gnome HIG book to our pages [like 2] if not already. That will require a revisor with en_US skills. - if there is a way to script changes, script them otherwise wait until there is a script available to commit them - any time there are heavy changes that pop up in someone's mind (like changing ... for …) discuss it with the l10n team before committing those changes. Right. The issue is raised (IMHO) because a great deal of developers are not english native speakers, as well as their focus is no C++ language rather than English. The thing is: if we can catch the modification upfront, it will make it easy for all of us. If I may also suggest, I'll ask all developers and within ESC recurrent revision, to check/review/flag for any major issues with respect to l10n. This can be implemented as One: create a meta-bug about l10n en_US string revision. Two: then on each commit that involves some form of l10n activity, the developer should open a new bug with his commit number/reference and link to the l10n meta-bug. The subject line should be L10n revision requested. Three: the same developer, if implementing or modifying a feature, should also open a similar bug with subject [LOCALHELP] feature XYZ changed/created; help page missing and link to bug 80430. Note that we don't ask to the developers to fix english mistakes nor write help pages, tasks that we can offload from them provided we get noticed. Fixing English mistakes/linguistics and writting help pages is a task the community can do continuously. Kind regards -- Olivier Hallot Comunidade LibreOffice http://ask.libreoffice.org/pt-br -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: projects+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/projects/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-projects] Workflow between dev, UX and l10n teams
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 6:48 AM, Olivier Hallot olivier.hal...@libreoffice.org wrote: On 19/01/2015 08:03, Sophie wrote: To conclude, what l10n team would like to see is: - a review process of the strings before they are committed and make sure they respect the en_US standards (capitals, grammar, punctuation, typography). Maybe adding the Gnome HIG book to our pages [like 2] if not already. That will require a revisor with en_US skills. About how much work (read: time) would this review process entail? Thanks, --R -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald qu...@libreoffice.org -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: projects+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/projects/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
