Re: 'Pylons - carries the load'
On Tue, 2007-06-05 at 23:01 -0700, Mike Orr wrote: It's interesting that Zope, Twisted, TurboGears, and now Pylons are all splitting up from one big package into several smaller packages that can be used in other frameworks. Zope has spun off ZODB and is in the process of spinning off other components. TG has spun off ToscaWidgets and wants to spin off others. That's a kind of convergence too. It was Ian Bicking who said, it doesn't matter if there are a lot of frameworks as long as they are interoperable. Interoperability is not only Pylons' feature but its vision, so maybe that should be in the brand somewhere. Power adapter? Or a punnish power adopter? Personally I'm fond of Pylons, the juice is loose! but some might not find it funny ;-) Cliff --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: 'Pylons - carries the load'
On Jun 6, 12:01 am, Mike Orr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --8-- top: 'Pylons - carries the load'? Good - 'Pylons handles the wires' Good, but perhaps better as a supplement than the main slogan, simply because it's a bit obscure out of context. - 'Lighting the LAMP' Great imagery!!! - 'No shortcuts - end to end integration' - 'No shortcuts - approachable end to end integration' - 'Pylons does the hard work for you' ---8-- Oh, oh let me add another one: Pylons - deliver power This would take care of what pylons definition is. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: 'Pylons - carries the load'
On 6/5/07, John_Nowlan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James and Ben ask 'what makes Pylons different from other web frameworks?' This is totally backwards imho. The strength of Pylons is not that Pylons is different from all the other (Python) web frameworks but that it takes a more rigorous, standardized, modular, comprehensive approach. That and the friendly, knowledgeable community. A brand (logo/slogan/name) has to be unique, memorable, and attractive. It does not in itself have to refer to the framework's unique features or show why it's better than the competition. SkunkWeb has a wonderful slogan: Smell the power! SkunkWeb is not in any way more skunkish or smelly than the other frameworks, but the brand works on all three counts. Pylons ... is trying to bring the Python web framework community together by erasing differences. That's true. Pylons believes in interoperability more than any other framework does, that's why it's so modular. TG also beckoned with its promises. The skys were dark. Hope was lost. Then, the waft of an elixir called sqlalchemy that solved the riddle of composite keys, parted the clouds, and led back to the path of WSGI, which was maintained by Pylons. TurboGears made the mistake of prescribing one set of libraries and making the framework tightly depend on those. Then the libraries evolved out from under it, and they were forced to switch. They've already decided to adopt Genshi and I think SQLAlchemy as the standard, but because of the TG book they're forced to keep supporting SQLObject and Kid longer than they probably would have otherwise. Pylons does not maintain WSGI, it merely uses it. WSGI's owner is Philip Eby, who wrote PEP 333. He has already blogged about its shortcomings and suggested a simpler WSGI 2.0, but unfortunately that hasn't gone anywhere yet. Perhaps a green lightning bolt for a favicon? Green? I love CherryPy's favicon; I hope we come up with something as colorful. I admire all the open source projects but I think maybe TG and the Django brands have suffered a bit in quality from their rush to market? I'm not sure this is true. I applaud Kevin Dangoor for elucidating that Zope, TG, and Pylons are, more and more, converging. http://groups.google.ca/group/pylons-discuss/browse_thread/thread/40899cb2db03bcf6/15de0eed76c10bfb?lnk=gstq=dangoorrnum=2hl=en#15de0eed76c10bfb I hope the natural evolution of all these frameworks will eventually result in the best of breed. I think the Pylons people doing the heavy lifting are helping to bring this about by making sure everything can interoperate (through standards, wsgi), because that, it seems to me, is the only way forward. It may be that Pylons has taken the central niche in Python web frameworks that Debian has in Linux distributions. Because Debian is beholden to no commercial interest, companies are comfortable letting it be the standard to measure others against. Likewise, because Pylons is built on interoperability, it will increasingly become the measure of how well other libraries work with it. It's interesting that Zope, Twisted, TurboGears, and now Pylons are all splitting up from one big package into several smaller packages that can be used in other frameworks. Zope has spun off ZODB and is in the process of spinning off other components. TG has spun off ToscaWidgets and wants to spin off others. That's a kind of convergence too. It was Ian Bicking who said, it doesn't matter if there are a lot of frameworks as long as they are interoperable. Interoperability is not only Pylons' feature but its vision, so maybe that should be in the brand somewhere. top: 'Pylons - carries the load'? Good - 'Pylons handles the wires' Good, but perhaps better as a supplement than the main slogan, simply because it's a bit obscure out of context. - 'Lighting the LAMP' Great imagery!!! - 'No shortcuts - end to end integration' - 'No shortcuts - approachable end to end integration' - 'Pylons does the hard work for you' Unfortunately these sound like the slogans every framework hypes itself as. Java also thinks of itself as approachable end to end integration, gag. -- Mike Orr [EMAIL PROTECTED] --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
'Pylons - carries the load'
James and Ben ask 'what makes Pylons different from other web frameworks?' This is totally backwards imho. The strength of Pylons is not that Pylons is different from all the other (Python) web frameworks but that it takes a more rigorous, standardized, modular, comprehensive approach. That and the friendly, knowledgeable community. Seriously, this is a great Friday topic (o.k. I'm a little late to the party). Pylons is the only framework that isn't taking shortcuts, and that is trying to bring the Python web framework community together by erasing differences. (o.k. I may be talking out of my, uhm, nose, but that is what it looks like to me, a perpetual newbie) I came to Pylons, clip-clop, clip-clop, in my quest for 'The Holy Grail of web frameworks', passing by ASP, PHP, Zope, RoR, Django, and TG. It started with a search for a templating system to use in our large Oracle db, ERP type web application(s). Determined to taste the 'Open Source' waters I had heard so much about, I tried Python and fell for 'Dive into Python', with help from 'Learning Python'. I don't like to use the word 'elegant' with Python because Python is so unpretentious but it fits. Now armed, and with the search narrowed to Python (but with many a glance over the shoulder at RoR, and ASP), I entered the forests of 'Python: the only language with more web frameworks than keywords'. Arriving at the walls of Zope, the fortress proved unpenetrable. Django charmed with a Google Tech talk (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-70449010942275062) where Jacob Kaplan-Moss talked about the wrong way to do templating and I thought: 'hmm, exactly the way we do it.' However, the more I looked the less I was sure that the differences were that great. TG also beckoned with its promises. The skys were dark. Hope was lost. Then, the waft of an elixir called sqlalchemy that solved the riddle of composite keys, parted the clouds, and led back to the path of WSGI, which was maintained by Pylons. and worked. In this small community were worthy and esteemed knights. O.k. lets stop the metaphor there as its getting tortured. As far as branding goes, I think the Pylons brand is strong and the electricity grid is a good metaphor and has many possibilities. Perhaps a green lightning bolt for a favicon? I admire all the open source projects but I think maybe TG and the Django brands have suffered a bit in quality from their rush to market? I applaud Kevin Dangoor for elucidating that Zope, TG, and Pylons are, more and more, converging. http://groups.google.ca/group/pylons-discuss/browse_thread/thread/40899c b2db03bcf6/15de0eed76c10bfb?lnk=gstq=dangoorrnum=2hl=en#15de0eed76c10 bfb I hope the natural evolution of all these frameworks will eventually result in the best of breed. I think the Pylons people doing the heavy lifting are helping to bring this about by making sure everything can interoperate (through standards, wsgi), because that, it seems to me, is the only way forward. Now to finish off. I think a tag line is important. It is only a small part of a brand but what is easily memorable. Below are the hackneyed tag lines that wandered through my mind until I hit upon one I liked, the last one. So in the spirit of fun, I put this out as a tag line competition, can you top: 'Pylons - carries the load'? Pylons - 'No shortcuts - end to end integration' - 'No shortcuts - approachable end to end integration' - 'Pylons does the hard work for you' - 'Pylons handles the wires' - 'Lighting the LAMP' - 'Pylons - Python web development that carries the load' - 'Pylons - carries the load' I like this one, with the electrical and works connotations. I think a tag line should be short - memorable rather than explanatory. A succint summary of Pylons can follow. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: 'Pylons - carries the load'
On 6/5/07, John_Nowlan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - 'Pylons - carries the load' I like this one, with the electrical and works connotations. I think a tag line should be short - memorable rather than explanatory. A succint summary of Pylons can follow. I've enjoyed reading the ideas and discussion on the subject of Corporate Identity. This is probably the best solid idea that can be put to use for identity purposes. Coupled with (I believe it was) Ben's earlier vision of a hand reaching up into the power lines, something to incorperate the idea of workers bearing the load of power lines/cables, etc. It's good to see so many people are taking a valid interest in this and ideas are coming forth. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
