Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 8:51 AM, Kevin G. Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is an interesting point. It might make sense to start a documentation standard. One that all these projects could embrace moving forward. If the docs were all in a standard format, like man, they could be easily combined for projects like Pylons and other frameworks, sort of Legos for documentation. Open Doc Blocks ... ;) Something like this would help reduce redundancy, sort of normalization of docs, and might improve overall documentation support on a lot of projects Just a thought... does anyone know if there is any sort of standard like this? I tend to use Natural Docs for its easy skinning and support for it's multi-language and multi-doc syntax support. But this would only cover API docs... - Kevin Baker Sphinx looks likely to become it. Both Pylons and Paste have switched to it, as has Python's development versions. See: http://docs.pylonshq.com/ (unfinished) http://pythonpaste.org/ http://docs.python.org/dev/ (Python 2.6a3) http://docs.python.org/dev/3.0/ (Python 3) I haven't used Sphinx myself but I believe it combines ReStructured Text articles into a book, and you can stick docstring-generated content wherever you want. Ben has some plan to import the documentation from Pylons' component projects into this scheme, but I'm not sure exactly how it works. I imagine it's something like svn:external for Sphinx content and a downloader-converter for non-Sphinx content. Pylons is doing this out of necessity because we need the documentation. The Pylons docs themselves could theoretically be a building block for some other documentation, but nobody has yet outlined what that documentation might be. Perhaps a central documentation repository in PyPI, or all web-related documentation at docs.pythonweb.org. A perennial problem with documentation is that building its structure or tools takes time away from writing the content. That's why Pylons went with Confluence originally for its wiki, because Confluence provided a quick way to start writing without having to build infrastructure). Python for years used LaTeX with custom stylesheets. Other projects like Cheetah followed suit. But LaTeX is a pain to maintain compared to the newer HTML/DocBook/XML and ReST formats. But ReST didn't support multi-article books very well (i.e., no standard way to make next/previous/up links at the bottom of the page). Various programs were written to fill this gap, but none emerged as pre-eminent so it was a mess. Pylons started using Pudge as a structure for application documentation, but Pudge was difficult to install and buggy. Then Sphinx came along and does it all better. I don't know how well it handles multilingual docs; maybe somebody else can answer that. -- Mike Orr [EMAIL PROTECTED] --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
Sphinx looks likely to become it. Both Pylons and Paste have switched to it, as has Python's development versions. See: http://docs.pylonshq.com/ (unfinished) http://pythonpaste.org/ These are basically unfinished too, but I figured it was better than how it used to be anyway. http://docs.python.org/dev/ (Python 2.6a3) http://docs.python.org/dev/3.0/ (Python 3) I haven't used Sphinx myself but I believe it combines ReStructured Text articles into a book, and you can stick docstring-generated content wherever you want. Ben has some plan to import the documentation from Pylons' component projects into this scheme, but I'm not sure exactly how it works. I imagine it's something like svn:external for Sphinx content and a downloader-converter for non-Sphinx content. You just tell Sphinx to put an object's docstring in a particular location, and it does it. So as long as the other packages are installed you can insert their docstrings in. Pylons is doing this out of necessity because we need the documentation. The Pylons docs themselves could theoretically be a building block for some other documentation, but nobody has yet outlined what that documentation might be. Perhaps a central documentation repository in PyPI, or all web-related documentation at docs.pythonweb.org. There has been some discussion about a closer relationship between these projects (mostly Pylons, Paste, TG, and Repoze), and having a cohesive documentation story is a big part of that. We don't have any actual plans yet, though, just intentions. A perennial problem with documentation is that building its structure or tools takes time away from writing the content. That's why Pylons went with Confluence originally for its wiki, because Confluence provided a quick way to start writing without having to build infrastructure). I find Sphinx fairly workable. At least personally I really prefer to write docs in text files under version control, which is what Sphinx is built for. I think Sphinx's emphasis on hand-crafted documentation is probably best. Python for years used LaTeX with custom stylesheets. Other projects like Cheetah followed suit. But LaTeX is a pain to maintain compared to the newer HTML/DocBook/XML and ReST formats. But ReST didn't support multi-article books very well (i.e., no standard way to make next/previous/up links at the bottom of the page). Various programs were written to fill this gap, but none emerged as pre-eminent so it was a mess. Pylons started using Pudge as a structure for application documentation, but Pudge was difficult to install and buggy. Then Sphinx came along and does it all better. I don't know how well it handles multilingual docs; maybe somebody else can answer that. I don't think it has any special support. I'm not sure what that support would look like, but it's under active development and if someone can suggest something it might happen. People have implemented automatic Google translation links, and I guess they are okay at being readable, though no one was able to figure out a way to protect the code samples from translation. It would be spiffy if we could do automatic translation with hints when the translation goes wrong, so as to reduce the translation overhead. E.g., I could imagine a custom translation dictionary as ambiguous words are probably not very ambiguous in the context of our documentation (e.g., code almost always means source code not cipher). I don't know if there's translation services with a complete enough API for that sort of thing...? The public translation services seem pretty much all-or-nothing. But maybe translation with fixup? E.g., translate everything, then re-insert code samples over the translated code samples. And find phrases that are wrong and do a search-and-replace on those phrases. If you save the search-and-replace commands (as submitted by readers/translators) instead of saving the resulting text, they could be reapplied to the documentation after it is rebuilt, when the upstream documentation has changed. Obviously not perfect, but seems a whole lot easier to maintain than other translation strategies. Especially when completeness and accuracy is more important than expressiveness -- if you aren't sure the translated docs are completely right and complete, you'd be well served to read the original docs even if that's harder for you to do. (I think this is where translation of programming documentation is probably different than many other typical translation situations, where you might be more reluctant to deal with an obviously inferior automatically translated document.) -- Ian Bicking : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://blog.ianbicking.org --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 9:34 PM, Mike Orr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 8:51 AM, Kevin G. Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is an interesting point. It might make sense to start a documentation standard. One that all these projects could embrace moving forward. If the docs were all in a standard format, like man, they could be easily combined for projects like Pylons and other frameworks, sort of Legos for documentation. Open Doc Blocks ... ;) Something like this would help reduce redundancy, sort of normalization of docs, and might improve overall documentation support on a lot of projects Just a thought... does anyone know if there is any sort of standard like this? I tend to use Natural Docs for its easy skinning and support for it's multi-language and multi-doc syntax support. But this would only cover API docs... - Kevin Baker Sphinx looks likely to become it. Both Pylons and Paste have switched to it, as has Python's development versions. See: We at TurboGears have also switched to Sphinx for tg2: http://turbogears.org/2.0/docs/index.html Florent. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 8:45 PM, Mateusz Haligowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I could add my 2c to the discussion, I also would like to complain about the documentation:) My personal favorite type of documentation (ie. learning new stuff) is: 1. very general tutorial (like the one on the PylonsHQ) 2. expanded tutorials - general tutorial divided into parts, with deeper explanation of what happens 3. HowTos on most popular tasks - something I'm really missing on Pylons. I still can't do a good user system at my application 4. Up-to-version screencasts - they are lovely indeed, provided that they consider the current version. This pretty much jives with what I've been thinking (although I did not rate screencasts as strongly), and is a good articulation of our goals. I've added it to Suggested Improvements to the Documentation. http://wiki.pylonshq.com/display/pylonscookbook/Suggested+Improvements+to+the+Documentation -- Mike Orr [EMAIL PROTECTED] --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Alberto Valverde [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: I'm not making any judgments about anyone. However, I did see a great talk yesterday called How Open Source Projects Survive Poisonous People: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZSFDm3UYkeE It's definitely worth watching ;) Nah, I don't think there has been any bad intentions from any side. Just an unfortunate misunderstanding, we can now all continue to get along ;) For the record, Alberto, in my experience with him, is one of the most helpful people I have met in Open Source :) He is a good guy to have involved in any project in my opinion. Cheers, Alberto --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
On Sun, 2008-01-06 at 18:15 -0400, Noah Gift wrote: On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Alberto Valverde [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: I'm not making any judgments about anyone. However, I did see a great talk yesterday called How Open Source Projects Survive Poisonous People: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZSFDm3UYkeE It's definitely worth watching ;) Nah, I don't think there has been any bad intentions from any side. Just an unfortunate misunderstanding, we can now all continue to get along ;) For the record, Alberto, in my experience with him, is one of the most helpful people I have met in Open Source :) He is a good guy to have involved in any project in my opinion. I would also like to say that I have had great experiences with both the TG list and the pylons list ( what little I have used it ). And Alberto has fixed things very quickly and responded to me personally when I was pretty much the only one in time sensitive trouble over the issue. thanks y'all Iain --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
If I could add my 2c to the discussion, I also would like to complain about the documentation:) My personal favorite type of documentation (ie. learning new stuff) is: 1. very general tutorial (like the one on the PylonsHQ) 2. expanded tutorials - general tutorial divided into parts, with deeper explanation of what happens 3. HowTos on most popular tasks - something I'm really missing on Pylons. I still can't do a good user system at my application 4. Up-to-version screencasts - they are lovely indeed, provided that they consider the current version. I find the Django documentation better than Pylons one, but it still lacks a lot. Although, I keep my fingers crossed and can't wait for the book! Regards, halish 2008/6/2 iain duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Sun, 2008-01-06 at 18:15 -0400, Noah Gift wrote: On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Alberto Valverde [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: I'm not making any judgments about anyone. However, I did see a great talk yesterday called How Open Source Projects Survive Poisonous People: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZSFDm3UYkeE It's definitely worth watching ;) Nah, I don't think there has been any bad intentions from any side. Just an unfortunate misunderstanding, we can now all continue to get along ;) For the record, Alberto, in my experience with him, is one of the most helpful people I have met in Open Source :) He is a good guy to have involved in any project in my opinion. I would also like to say that I have had great experiences with both the TG list and the pylons list ( what little I have used it ). And Alberto has fixed things very quickly and responded to me personally when I was pretty much the only one in time sensitive trouble over the issue. thanks y'all Iain --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
I'm not making any judgments about anyone. However, I did see a great talk yesterday called How Open Source Projects Survive Poisonous People: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZSFDm3UYkeE It's definitely worth watching ;) -jj On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 9:33 PM, Jonathan Vanasco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 29, 8:07 am, Alberto Valverde [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps a trip to archives [1] to refresh your memory on the tone of some of your posts can shed a light on the reason you felt treated in this way by TG's dev. community. Perhaps my tone got increasingly negative as a response to poor treatment. I constantly created patches to bring TG's SqlAlchemy support in line with the SqlObject -- as one was supported and another was 'experiemental'. I would then be derided for trying to instill new design patterns -- which were exact clones of Kevin's 'official' sqlobject work. On top of that, every bit of new functionality I offered and coded to the TG community as a patch set was summarily rejected... then 2-8 months later I would receive an email saying So we realized that we should have gone in this direction... would you mind updating your patch to the new codebase? -- I, for one, welcome our new Facebook overlords! http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: I'm not making any judgments about anyone. However, I did see a great talk yesterday called How Open Source Projects Survive Poisonous People: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZSFDm3UYkeE It's definitely worth watching ;) Nah, I don't think there has been any bad intentions from any side. Just an unfortunate misunderstanding, we can now all continue to get along ;) Cheers, Alberto --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
On May 22, 6:07 pm, Shannon -jj Behrens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ben Bangert and I decided to meet for dinner in Berkeley. I got very lost and ended up in Oakland. I finally got to the restaurant an hour late. Ben had already eaten. We had a good talk about Web development. He told me he wanted to write a new Python Web application framework. I tried to talk him out of it. He didn't listen to me ;) I'm glad he did. The TG2 team is happy too :) I tried to offload some mod_perl appserver bottlenecks onto TurboGears when it first came out ( they were on numeric crunching , not Perl's specialty ). That was a complete nightmare. The specs shifted nonstop, I'm sorry. this is what you get with alpha software which is actively defining itself (which is what TG was when we had the pleasure of reading you) and the developer community was one of the least pleasant groups I've ever had the misfortune of working with ( Kevin excluded ). Perhaps a trip to archives [1] to refresh your memory on the tone of some of your posts can shed a light on the reason you felt treated in this way by TG's dev. community. I usually ignore this kind of crap in public forums but today's there's a nice friday-feeling at the office which invites to procrastinate. Sorry but I can't guarantee it'll remain this way hence me being available for the rest of the piss-fest Yours, Alberto [1] http://groups.google.com/group/turbogears/search?q=author%3Ajvanasco%40gmail.comstart=0scoring=d; --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
On May 29, 8:07 am, Alberto Valverde [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps a trip to archives [1] to refresh your memory on the tone of some of your posts can shed a light on the reason you felt treated in this way by TG's dev. community. Perhaps my tone got increasingly negative as a response to poor treatment. I constantly created patches to bring TG's SqlAlchemy support in line with the SqlObject -- as one was supported and another was 'experiemental'. I would then be derided for trying to instill new design patterns -- which were exact clones of Kevin's 'official' sqlobject work. On top of that, every bit of new functionality I offered and coded to the TG community as a patch set was summarily rejected... then 2-8 months later I would receive an email saying So we realized that we should have gone in this direction... would you mind updating your patch to the new codebase? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
On May 22, 6:07 pm, Shannon -jj Behrens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ben Bangert and I decided to meet for dinner in Berkeley. I got very lost and ended up in Oakland. I finally got to the restaurant an hour late. Ben had already eaten. We had a good talk about Web development. He told me he wanted to write a new Python Web application framework. I tried to talk him out of it. He didn't listen to me ;) I'm glad he did. I tried to offload some mod_perl appserver bottlenecks onto TurboGears when it first came out ( they were on numeric crunching , not Perl's specialty ). That was a complete nightmare. The specs shifted nonstop, and the developer community was one of the least pleasant groups I've ever had the misfortune of working with ( Kevin excluded ). I quickly found myself using a mixture of PHP and Twisted instead. When someone said hey! there's a new Python framework that doesn't force you into the author's coding conventions, or make you design apps the way the authors do it I checked it out... and fell in love. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
I will have to agree with the sentiments already voiced here. The documentation is very sparse, and it relies on the user having a good understanding of MVC frameworks (like RoR and CakePHP). Having actually attempted to write my own MVC framework in PHP (and then abandoning it due to limitations of PHP), I can say I have a good understanding of these frameworks, and that helped me understand Pylons. Let me also mention, to put things into perspective, that CakePHP's documentation is not very helpful either. They have an API, and they have a tutorial that doesn't go beyond the basics. I also understand the viewpoint of the developers, Mike and Ben and others, that they don't have a lot of time for documentation. I have a few open source projects of my own (one of which is using Pylons - thanks for a great framework!), and getting round to writing documentation is just something that I often don't have time for. To those who complain: Please try to be part of the solution: if you've done something that you can't find in the wiki, add a page and document what you did. Also, if you're having trouble understanding how Pylons works, I recommend reading through CakePHP's tutorial. It covers the same concepts used here. To the developers: Please don't moan back at your community about how they're not doing anything. Even if you can't get round to writing up documentation, rather say, We're very sorry, but we just haven't had time. - it's a much nicer response (and it puts you in a better light) than, Well, why don't you write some? To both sides: Pointing fingers, blaming others, and generally moaning does not help anyone, much less yourself. Great communities only arise out of people who are prepared to give more than they take. -- Raoul Snyman B.Tech Information Technology (Software Engineering) E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.saturnlaboratories.co.za/ Blog: http://blog.saturnlaboratories.co.za/ Mobile: 082 550 3754 Registered Linux User #333298 (http://counter.li.org) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
On Freitag, 23. Mai 2008, Mike Orr wrote: On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 11:46 PM, Raoul Snyman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will have to agree with the sentiments already voiced here. The documentation is very sparse, and it relies on the user having a good understanding of MVC frameworks (like RoR and CakePHP). I wish Christoph were here because he wrote an extensive intro to Pylons covering precisely this. I just don't know where his latest version is. You rang? :) I had once upon a time started an introcution at http://wiki.pylonshq.com/display/pylonscookbook/Concepts+of+Pylons I received a lot of positive feedback about it and started working on a longer article. The last state of work can be found at http://workaround.org/pylons/beginning-pylons.html Then Ben started calling for more documentation for the 0.9.7 documentation and introced Sphinx and put the documentation under http://docs.pylonshq.com After a little chit-chat with Ben I agreed to put further work on the article into the official docs and submitted an introductional chapter. Ben didn't seem to get it online yet and Graham Higgins has also written something on the topic. So I think Ben still has merging the two documents on his todo list. At least I hope my text doesn't just vanish. Anyway, Graham's work in progress is currently at http://bel-epa.com/pylonsdocs/index.html which also contains an About Pylons chapter. My own contribution can be read at http://workaround.org/pylons/docs/introduction.html which is apparently not yet merged into the official docs. Ben didn't tell me that I got fired so I still have faith. :) I assume the confusion is complete now with all the URLs. But I'm very convinced that moving all the wiki mess into one consistent documentation (at docs.pylonshq.com) is the right way. And I hope that it's get done soon. Cheers Christoph Signum Haas P.S.: @Graham: Great work! signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 1:38 AM, Christoph Haas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Freitag, 23. Mai 2008, Mike Orr wrote: On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 11:46 PM, Raoul Snyman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will have to agree with the sentiments already voiced here. The documentation is very sparse, and it relies on the user having a good understanding of MVC frameworks (like RoR and CakePHP). I wish Christoph were here because he wrote an extensive intro to Pylons covering precisely this. I just don't know where his latest version is. You rang? :) I had once upon a time started an introcution at http://wiki.pylonshq.com/display/pylonscookbook/Concepts+of+Pylons I received a lot of positive feedback about it and started working on a longer article. The last state of work can be found at http://workaround.org/pylons/beginning-pylons.html Then Ben started calling for more documentation for the 0.9.7 documentation and introced Sphinx and put the documentation under http://docs.pylonshq.com After a little chit-chat with Ben I agreed to put further work on the article into the official docs and submitted an introductional chapter. Ben didn't seem to get it online yet and Graham Higgins has also written something on the topic. So I think Ben still has merging the two documents on his todo list. At least I hope my text doesn't just vanish. Anyway, Graham's work in progress is currently at http://bel-epa.com/pylonsdocs/index.html which also contains an About Pylons chapter. My own contribution can be read at http://workaround.org/pylons/docs/introduction.html which is apparently not yet merged into the official docs. Ben didn't tell me that I got fired so I still have faith. :) I assume the confusion is complete now with all the URLs. But I'm very convinced that moving all the wiki mess into one consistent documentation (at docs.pylonshq.com) is the right way. And I hope that it's get done soon. Noah, there's your cue ;) All the information is there, you just have to cat | sort | uniq it ;) -jj -- I, for one, welcome our new Facebook overlords! http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
On May 23, 1:38 am, Christoph Haas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You rang? :) I had once upon a time started an introcution at http://wiki.pylonshq.com/display/pylonscookbook/Concepts+of+Pylons Then Ben started calling for more documentation for the 0.9.7 documentation and introced Sphinx and put the documentation under http://docs.pylonshq.com One thing that could really help learners is to make a note of the versions of all the different parts. When I was getting started, it was confusing with all the Pylons references that came up on Google. I think that the new docs will go a long way to help this, as the version is clearly noted (like on the MySQL web site for another example). I spent some time making online learning material in a past life. I am not a teacher, but I did work with some very good Instructional Designers, so I am familiar with the systematic approach that they took to designing and creating learning material. I'm planning on showing up at the Pylons event after Google IO so maybe I'll get a chance to chat more on this then. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 08:46:39AM +0200, Raoul Snyman wrote: I will have to agree with the sentiments already voiced here. The documentation is very sparse, and it relies on the user having a good understanding of MVC frameworks (like RoR and CakePHP). Actually, I've found that it's a case of looking more complicated than it really is. Nine times out of ten, when I am frustrated and can't solve something, I start reading documentation and code. And it goes nowhere. But then I come back to reading that same code after stepping away for a while, and I'm surprised at how simple everything is. As far as my heartwarming Pylons story - I inherited a Pylons app written by someone else. The original developer liked Python, and for whatever reason, chose Pylons as the framework of choice. I took over work on that app, and for a long time, I didn't even need to know much about Pylons to add features. The fact that I could do this as a part of my first exposure to real web programming (I'm a C guy, by history...) was remarkable, so I stuck with it. Now I feel like I have a half-decent grasp on it without it being too painful - how many times has someone said that about an app that they unfortunately inherited? :) -- Ross Vandegrift [EMAIL PROTECTED] The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell. --St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
I never said the community wasn't doing anything. I understand perfectly if somebody feels they don't know a subject well enough to write about it; I do that myself. Or if they just don't have an inclination to, that's fine too. And f somebody thinks the documentation is spotty and has been needed for months, I agree with them. What I was specifically complaining about was the attitude that free software developers owe something to somebody, that they have an obligation to make everything polished right now. If you want me to be obligated to you, I'll send you my hourly rates. Otherwise, we're all volunteers. Mike, please don't be so defensive. I was not accusing you of anything, and I was not telling you to be obligated to me at all. To be perfectly honest, I don't need your help. But this is the exact response I was talking about. Instead of being gracious about something, some developers become defensive and then attack back. And Mike, this is not a personal attack on you, this is a trend I have seen in a number of projects. CakePHP (since I've mentioned them before) do the same thing. When someone is critical about their documentation, they also do the defend and attack response (I've probably done the same with my projects as well). Mike, I agree with you that as free software developers we don't owe anything to anybody. However, I do think that it's a bit silly to contribute something to the community, and then not expect criticism. The issue is not *what* you say, but rather *how* you say it. -- Raoul Snyman B.Tech Information Technology (Software Engineering) E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.saturnlaboratories.co.za/ Blog: http://blog.saturnlaboratories.co.za/ Mobile: 082 550 3754 Registered Linux User #333298 (http://counter.li.org) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
On Fri, 2008-05-23 at 11:06 +0200, Raoul Snyman wrote: But this is the exact response I was talking about. Instead of being gracious about something, some developers become defensive and then attack back. And Mike, this is not a personal attack on you, this is a trend I have seen in a number of projects. CakePHP (since I've mentioned them before) do the same thing. When someone is critical about their documentation, they also do the defend and attack response (I've probably done the same with my projects as well). I'm asking this questions because of the low number of tutorials, sh*tty tutorials on Pylons site maybe there's a big boom about 0.9.7? Honestly - I don't think so... If I remember good - it should be on more than a month ago. This seemed more like be attacked and defend by counterattack than defend and attack. The OP is clearly a troll. I suggest we let it go. Regards, Cliff --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 2:06 AM, Raoul Snyman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you want me to be obligated to you, I'll send you my hourly rates. Otherwise, we're all volunteers. Mike, please don't be so defensive. I was not accusing you of anything, and I was not telling you to be obligated to me at all The thread is degrading to misunderstandings of intent, so as Chris said there's no point in continuing it. The original poster has not responded at all, either to point out lapses in the docs or anything else. But in any case, I certainly didn't mean to accuse you. The you didn't mean you Raoul but you anybody who takes free software developers for granted. But enough of that. Christoph wrote: You rang? Wow, my Pylons secret decoder ring works! I just wish for something and it happens! -- Mike Orr [EMAIL PROTECTED] --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
Noah, there's your cue ;) All the information is there, you just have to cat | sort | uniq it ;) Ok, it is a deal then. I should have time on May 31st and that weekend to document at least my version of a tutorial based on that info. I completely agree with Mike Orr, the best writing comes with self discovery of new information. This is why it is so tough to be a good writer, it requires an odd balance of being an expert, coupled with a fuzzy understanding of a topic, and the ability to research and learn quickly. It is a weird skill. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
Hey guys, I'm wondering where did you start your journey with Pylons? I'm asking this questions because of the low number of tutorials, sh*tty tutorials on Pylons site maybe there's a big boom about 0.9.7? Honestly - I don't think so... If I remember good - it should be on more than a month ago. W8ing for your reply, Mike --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 7:37 AM, Mikeroz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey guys, I'm wondering where did you start your journey with Pylons? I'm asking this questions because of the low number of tutorials, sh*tty tutorials on Pylons site maybe there's a big boom about 0.9.7? Honestly - I don't think so... If I remember good - it should be on more than a month ago. W8ing for your reply, Mike Thanks for telling us what's wrong with the tutorials, what specific problems or questions you had, etc. There's a comment feature on every article for feedback, and a page called Suggested Improvements to the Documentation. What kinds of tutorials would you like to see? It does little good to tell free software volunteers what they should do, or whether something should have been done a month ago. Nobody here owes you or anybody else anything; we do it because we want to. If you don't like Pylons, there's a 100% money back guarantee. But you could try being part of the solution rather than part of the problem. The official docs are being rewritten for Pylons 0.9.7; that's why it hasn't been released yet. A few people have written extensive third-party introductions although I don't know the URLs offhand; perhaps they can reply to this message. A book is around 80% done. So there will be significantly more material over the next couple months. I started with the official docs and the QuickWiki tutorial. The rest I picked up from this list. But I've been using Python since 1997 and have used several other web frameworks, so I knew in general what it did; I just needed to learn the syntax. If you don't have that background it can be harder. This list and especially IRC are good places to ask questions or even just to listen to find out how things work, how to do things, and what doesn't work. -- Mike Orr [EMAIL PROTECTED] --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
Hey Mike, It's funny that you said the big boom happen about a month ago. I'm the lead in my company and was asked to pick a dynamic language and web framework we can standardizes on nearly a month ago. After doing some research, I recommended Python and Pylon. I can't say much about either yet, other than the more I learn, the more I like them both. Duong On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 7:37 AM, Mikeroz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey guys, I'm wondering where did you start your journey with Pylons? I'm asking this questions because of the low number of tutorials, sh*tty tutorials on Pylons site maybe there's a big boom about 0.9.7? Honestly - I don't think so... If I remember good - it should be on more than a month ago. W8ing for your reply, Mike --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
I'm introducing myself to Pylons, too. Even though Pylons is a framework that incorporates the work of many others, I'm impressed with its clarity and design with direct purpose. I, too, find documentation to be scattered and of various vintages, and I certainly look forward to a cohesive presentation that reflects what is available today. I already have the Pylons book on pre-order. You should, too. In the interim, I've been gathering documentation as I find it. I'm in the process of putting it all into one document so I can more easily use it as a reference. If you need something (anything) now, I should have this together in the next several days. Let me know of your interest (through an email directly to me and not through a public list posting) and I'll reply with an attached copy. Mel Raab mel-r at the gmail domain --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
On May 22, 2008, at 10:37 AM, Mikeroz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey guys, I'm wondering where did you start your journey with Pylons? I'm asking this questions because of the low number of tutorials, sh*tty tutorials on Pylons site maybe there's a big boom about 0.9.7? Honestly - I don't think so... If I remember good - it should be on more than a month ago. I know that I had trouble getting started. I do like pylons now that I am starting to understand it. Seems like an understanding of rails- like frameworks is presumed by the documentation. Also, pylons itself doesn't seem that hard to learn, but since it is built on other deep modules like sqlalchemy and wsgi, etc, there is a lot to learn to figure out how everything should integrate. I find it hard. So many options for how to implement. Just look at the recent debates over sqlalchemy and web servers for deployment. Dont get me wrong, i really like the debates and discussions, I just think that having solid recommendations in the docs would help newcomers feel comfortable without having to do their own heavy research into every module. I really really like the 'for people on a hurry' docs. Also take all this with a grain of salt as I haven't looked at the docs in months so I could be totally off base. I haven't tried django, but I gather that since it is less modular, it is less flexible, but that also means there is one way of doing things because you don't need to integrate a bunch of modules together and that makes it easier to learn? I'm not sure any of that made sense, but I am not about to try to fix it on this iPhone. Kyle --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 7:37 AM, Mikeroz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey guys, I'm wondering where did you start your journey with Pylons? Ben Bangert and I decided to meet for dinner in Berkeley. I got very lost and ended up in Oakland. I finally got to the restaurant an hour late. Ben had already eaten. We had a good talk about Web development. He told me he wanted to write a new Python Web application framework. I tried to talk him out of it. He didn't listen to me ;) -jj -- I, for one, welcome our new Facebook overlords! http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 3:07 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 7:37 AM, Mikeroz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey guys, I'm wondering where did you start your journey with Pylons? Ben Bangert and I decided to meet for dinner in Berkeley. I got very lost and ended up in Oakland. I finally got to the restaurant an hour late. Ben had already eaten. We had a good talk about Web development. He told me he wanted to write a new Python Web application framework. I tried to talk him out of it. He didn't listen to me ;) -jj Sounds like when I went to Vancouver and met Tavis Rudd at a gelato stand. He drew an outline for Cheetah on the back of a napkin. (It was called TemplateServer then.) I argued that having a list of alternating static text and placeholders was more efficient than converting a template to a Python module. We both wanted to get away from regex substitutions. He wrote his TemplateServer anyway, and it ended up being way more efficient. Mako now uses roughly the same approach. -- Mike Orr [EMAIL PROTECTED] --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
Wow, I thought by the subject this was going to be some endearing story telling about how great Pylons is and why you came to use it as your chosen framework for developing with Python and the web, etc. Well, if this is a forum for such a thing let me say that I love Pylons and started my venture with the need for a site that authenticated users with LDAP and allowed them to share files. This was for a company which needed separate file shares based on access roles.. I started to make the project public on google code here: http://code.google.com/p/ldapsite/ but never got around to packaging it and only put a few files up because people in #pylons needed examples. I did spend a lot of time on it and was quite satisfied when it was completed, but that was back in September of 2007 so I wouldn't try implementing it in a new pylons environment without looking it over. I was still gaining confidence in my Python abilities at the time (as I always am) and Pylons provided a great spring board for many new experiences. Thanks to all the #pylons regulars like Chairos, YGingras, Signum, etc for answering all types of questions. - Ken On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 6:20 PM, Mike Orr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 3:07 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 7:37 AM, Mikeroz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey guys, I'm wondering where did you start your journey with Pylons? Ben Bangert and I decided to meet for dinner in Berkeley. I got very lost and ended up in Oakland. I finally got to the restaurant an hour late. Ben had already eaten. We had a good talk about Web development. He told me he wanted to write a new Python Web application framework. I tried to talk him out of it. He didn't listen to me ;) -jj Sounds like when I went to Vancouver and met Tavis Rudd at a gelato stand. He drew an outline for Cheetah on the back of a napkin. (It was called TemplateServer then.) I argued that having a list of alternating static text and placeholders was more efficient than converting a template to a Python module. We both wanted to get away from regex substitutions. He wrote his TemplateServer anyway, and it ended up being way more efficient. Mako now uses roughly the same approach. -- Mike Orr [EMAIL PROTECTED] --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: How did you begin your fun with Pylons?
On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 6:20 PM, Mike Orr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 3:07 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 7:37 AM, Mikeroz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey guys, I'm wondering where did you start your journey with Pylons? Ben Bangert and I decided to meet for dinner in Berkeley. I got very lost and ended up in Oakland. I finally got to the restaurant an hour late. Ben had already eaten. We had a good talk about Web development. He told me he wanted to write a new Python Web application framework. I tried to talk him out of it. He didn't listen to me ;) -jj Sounds like when I went to Vancouver and met Tavis Rudd at a gelato stand. He drew an outline for Cheetah on the back of a napkin. (It was called TemplateServer then.) I argued that having a list of alternating static text and placeholders was more efficient than converting a template to a Python module. We both wanted to get away from regex substitutions. He wrote his TemplateServer anyway, and it ended up being way more efficient. Mako now uses roughly the same approach. I can vouch that both Mike Orr and JJ involvement are a healthy sign for any project associated with Python, although I wish they would do more public mentoring :) Just an FYI, in Atlanta, we will be participating remotely with the Pylons Sprint at the end of next week on May 31st. On the Atlanta side, we plan on pitching in on helping with tutorials and documentation. If you are new to Pylons, like I am, it might be a good opportunity to learn more by trying to create tutorials for things you don't understand yet. I find writing to be an extremely helpful way to learn a new subject. Noah Gift --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-discuss group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-discuss@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
