Re: [pypy-dev] Forwarding...

[Armin Rigo]

Hi,

On 19 May 2016 at 21:29, Kotrfa  wrote:
> Of course, I cannot ensure that you might get reasonably funded on
> kickstarter-like sites. But, what can you lose by making a campaign? It
> would be definitely much more visible than on your website

I should add that we did that already: we have three fundraisers
linked from the website---or maybe *had,* given that we launced them
long ago already.  It was reasonably successful.  We're now thinking
about what we'll do next.


A bientôt,

Armin.
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Re: [pypy-dev] Forwarding...

[Maciej Fijalkowski]

Hi Daniel.

As for kickstarter - it requires you to be american to start with :-P

As for numpy etc. - I can assure you we're working on the support for
those libraries as fast as possible, at the same time looking for
funding through commercial sources.

As for the website modernization - yes, this has to be done at some
point soon (and I started doing steps in that direction), but *that*
sort of things are really difficult to fund :-)

Cheers,
fijal

On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 9:29 PM, Kotrfa  wrote:
> Thanks for answer Maciej!
>
> I'm glad that this is in progress. It isn't possible to make some image
> about the situation from what I have found on the web. You response
> clarifies that a bit. I understand how difficult it can be.
>
> But I disagree with you regarding kickstarter. Pypy is connected to user
> experience. E.g. I am working as datascientists and pypy is running about 3
> times faster on the code I am able to use it on (which is, unfortunately,
> minority - most of it is of course in those 4 libraries which shines red on
> the library support wall - numpy, scipy, pandas, scikit-learn). Similar with
> (py)Spark. I would say there are more data scientists using Python than
> those who likes to use "MicroPython on the ESP8266". The gain this field can
> get from Pypy is quite substantial, even with that conservative estimate
> about 3 times as fast compared to cPython. And that is just one example.
>
> Of course, I cannot ensure that you might get reasonably funded on
> kickstarter-like sites. But, what can you lose by making a campaign? It
> would be definitely much more visible than on your website, which, to be
> honest, could be a bit modernized as well.  And even if it wouldn't be a
> success, you still get PR basically for free.
>
> I, unfortunately, don't have any insights or recommendation, it just
> scratched my mind.
>
> Thanks for your awesome work,
> Daniel
>
> čt 19. 5. 2016 v 18:12 odesílatel Maciej Fijalkowski 
> napsal:
>>
>> Hi Daniel.
>>
>> We've done all of the proposed scenarios. We had some success talking
>> to companies, but there is a lot of resistance for various reasons
>> (and the successful proposals I can't talk about), including the
>> inability to pay open source from the engineering budget and instead
>> doing it via the marketing budget (which is orders of magnitude
>> slower). In short - you need to offer them something in exchange,
>> which usually means you need to do a good job, but not good enough (so
>> you can fix it for money). This is a very perverse incentive, btu this
>> is how it goes.
>>
>> As for kickstarter - that targets primarily end-user experience and
>> not infrastructure. As such, it's hard to find money from users for
>> infrastructure, because it has relatively few direct users - mostly
>> large companies.
>>
>> As for who is working on this subject - I am. Feel free to get in
>> touch with me via other channels (private mail, gchat, IRC) if you
>> have deeper insights
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Maciej Fijalkowski
>>
>> On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Armin Rigo  wrote:
>> > On 19 May 2016 at 14:58,   wrote:
>> >> -- Forwarded message --
>> >> From: Daniel Hnyk 
>> >> To: pypy-dev@python.org
>> >> Cc:
>> >> Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 12:58:36 +
>> >> Subject: Question about funding, again
>> >> Hello,
>> >>
>> >> my question is simple. It strikes me why you don't have more financial
>> >> support, since PyPy might save quite a lot of resources compared to 
>> >> CPython.
>> >> When we witness that e.g. microsoft is able to donate $100k to Jupyter
>> >> (https://ipython.org/microsoft-donation-2013.html), why PyPy, being even
>> >> more generic then Jupyter, has problem to raise few tenths of thousands.
>> >>
>> >> I can find few mentions about this on the internet, but no serious
>> >> article or summary is out there.
>> >>
>> >> Have you tried any of the following?
>> >>
>> >> 1. Trying to get some funding from big companies and organizations such
>> >> as Google, Microsoft, RedHat or some other like Free Software Foundation? 
>> >> If
>> >> not, why not?
>> >> 2. Crowd founding websites such as Kickstarter or Indiegogo get quite a
>> >> big attention nowadays even for similar projects. There were successful
>> >> campaigns for projects with even smaller target group, such as designers
>> >> (https://krita.org/) or video editors (openshot 2). Why haven't you 
>> >> created
>> >> a campaign there? Micropython, again, with much smaller target group of
>> >> users had got funded as well.
>> >>
>> >> Is someone working on this subject? Or is there a general lack of man
>> >> power in PyPy's team? Couldn't be someone hired from money already
>> >> collected?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for an answer,
>> >> Daniel
>> > ___
>> > pypy-dev mailing list
>> > pypy-dev@python.org
>> > 

Re: [pypy-dev] Looking into numpy ndarray.flags.writeable

[Eli Stevens (Gmail)]

Looks like I need to do something along the lines of:

def descr_set_writeable(self, space, w_value):
if space.is_true(w_value) != bool(self.flags & NPY.ARRAY_WRITEABLE):
self.flags ^= NPY.ARRAY_WRITEABLE

(Though I probably need more robust checking to see if the flag *can*
be turned off)

def descr_setitem(self, space, w_item, w_value):
# This function already exists, but just contains the last
line with the raise
key = space.str_w(w_item)
value = space.bool_w(w_value)
if key == "W" or key == "WRITEABLE":
return self.descr_set_writeable(space, value)
raise oefmt(space.w_KeyError, "Unknown flag")

...
writeable = GetSetProperty(W_FlagsObject.descr_get_writeable,
W_FlagsObject.descr_set_writeable),

However I'm not entirely confident about things like space.bool_w,
etc. I've read http://doc.pypy.org/en/latest/objspace.html but am
still working on internalizing it.

Setting the GetSetProperty still results in the TypeError, which makes
me wonder how to tell if I'm getting the right flagsobj.py. I don't
think that I am. The results of the tests should be the same no matter
what python interpreter I'm using, correct? Would running the tests
with a virtualenv that has a stock pypy/numpy installed cause issues?
What if the virtualenv is cpython?

When I run py.test, I see:

pytest-2.5.2 from /Users/elis/edit/play/pypy/pytest.pyc

Which looks correct (.../play/pypy is my source checkout). But I get
the same thing when using cpython to run test_all.py, and there the
test passes, so I don't think it's indicative. When I print out
np.__file__ inside the test, I get

/Users/elis/venv/droidblue-pypy/site-packages/numpy/__init__.pyc

Which is the pypy venv I am using to run the tests in the first place,
but I'm not sure what the on-disk relationship between numpy and
micronumpy actually is. Is there a way from the test_flagobjs.py file
to determine what the on-disk location of micronumpy is?

I strongly suspect I've got something basic wrong. I also think that
the information at
http://doc.pypy.org/en/latest/getting-started-dev.html#running-pypy-s-unit-tests
and http://doc.pypy.org/en/latest/coding-guide.html#command-line-tool-test-all
conflict somewhat, or are at least unclear as to which approach is the
right way in what situation. I'll attempt to clarify whatever it is
that's tripping me up once I've got it sorted out.

Some other questions I have, looking at micornumpy/concrete.py line 37:

class BaseConcreteArray(object):
_immutable_fields_ = ['dtype?', 'storage', 'start', 'size', 'shape[*]',
  'strides[*]', 'backstrides[*]', 'order', 'gcstruct',
  'flags']
start = 0
parent = None
flags = 0

Does that immutable status cascade down into the objects, or is that
saying only that myInstance.flags cannot be reassigned (but
myInstance.flags.foo = 3 is fine)?

interpreter/typedef.py 221:

@specialize.arg(0)
def make_objclass_getter(tag, func, cls):
if func and hasattr(func, 'im_func'):
assert not cls or cls is func.im_class
cls = func.im_class
return _make_objclass_getter(cls)

What's the purpose of the tag argument? It doesn't seem to be used
here or in _make_descr_typecheck_wrapper, both of which are called
from GetSetProperty init. Based on docstrings on _Specialize, it seems
like they might be JIT hints. Is that correct?

Matti: If it's okay, I'd like to keep the discussion on the list, as
I've actively searched through discussions here to avoid asking
questions a second time. Hopefully this thread can help the next
person.

Sorry for the mega-post; thanks for reading.
Eli

On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 8:23 AM, Armin Rigo  wrote:
> Hi Eli,
>
> On 19 May 2016 at 08:58, Eli Stevens (Gmail)  wrote:
>> I've got a pypy clone and checkout, and have added TestFlags. When I
>> run it, I see:
>>
>>>   a.flags.writeable = False
>> E   TypeError: readonly attribute
>>
>> But nothing that looks like it should raise a TypeError in either of:
>
> Grep for 'writable'.  You'll see that it is defined as a
> GetSetProperty() with a getter but no setter so far.
>
>
> A bientôt,
>
> Armin.
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Re: [pypy-dev] Forwarding...

[Kotrfa]

Thanks for answer Maciej!

I'm glad that this is in progress. It isn't possible to make some image
about the situation from what I have found on the web. You response
clarifies that a bit. I understand how difficult it can be.

But I disagree with you regarding kickstarter. Pypy is connected to user
experience. E.g. I am working as datascientists and pypy is running about 3
times faster on the code I am able to use it on (which is, unfortunately,
minority - most of it is of course in those 4 libraries which shines red on
the library support wall - numpy, scipy, pandas, scikit-learn). Similar
with (py)Spark. I would say there are more data scientists using Python
than those who likes to use "MicroPython on the ESP8266". The gain this
field can get from Pypy is quite substantial, even with that conservative
estimate about 3 times as fast compared to cPython. And that is just one
example.

Of course, I cannot ensure that you might get reasonably funded on
kickstarter-like sites. But, what can you lose by making a campaign? It
would be definitely much more visible than on your website, which, to be
honest, could be a bit modernized as well.  And even if it wouldn't be a
success, you still get PR basically for free.

I, unfortunately, don't have any insights or recommendation, it just
scratched my mind.

Thanks for your awesome work,
Daniel

čt 19. 5. 2016 v 18:12 odesílatel Maciej Fijalkowski 
napsal:

> Hi Daniel.
>
> We've done all of the proposed scenarios. We had some success talking
> to companies, but there is a lot of resistance for various reasons
> (and the successful proposals I can't talk about), including the
> inability to pay open source from the engineering budget and instead
> doing it via the marketing budget (which is orders of magnitude
> slower). In short - you need to offer them something in exchange,
> which usually means you need to do a good job, but not good enough (so
> you can fix it for money). This is a very perverse incentive, btu this
> is how it goes.
>
> As for kickstarter - that targets primarily end-user experience and
> not infrastructure. As such, it's hard to find money from users for
> infrastructure, because it has relatively few direct users - mostly
> large companies.
>
> As for who is working on this subject - I am. Feel free to get in
> touch with me via other channels (private mail, gchat, IRC) if you
> have deeper insights
>
> Best regards,
> Maciej Fijalkowski
>
> On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Armin Rigo  wrote:
> > On 19 May 2016 at 14:58,   wrote:
> >> -- Forwarded message --
> >> From: Daniel Hnyk 
> >> To: pypy-dev@python.org
> >> Cc:
> >> Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 12:58:36 +
> >> Subject: Question about funding, again
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> my question is simple. It strikes me why you don't have more financial
> support, since PyPy might save quite a lot of resources compared to
> CPython. When we witness that e.g. microsoft is able to donate $100k to
> Jupyter (https://ipython.org/microsoft-donation-2013.html), why PyPy,
> being even more generic then Jupyter, has problem to raise few tenths of
> thousands.
> >>
> >> I can find few mentions about this on the internet, but no serious
> article or summary is out there.
> >>
> >> Have you tried any of the following?
> >>
> >> 1. Trying to get some funding from big companies and organizations such
> as Google, Microsoft, RedHat or some other like Free Software Foundation?
> If not, why not?
> >> 2. Crowd founding websites such as Kickstarter or Indiegogo get quite a
> big attention nowadays even for similar projects. There were successful
> campaigns for projects with even smaller target group, such as designers (
> https://krita.org/) or video editors (openshot 2). Why haven't you
> created a campaign there? Micropython, again, with much smaller target
> group of users had got funded as well.
> >>
> >> Is someone working on this subject? Or is there a general lack of man
> power in PyPy's team? Couldn't be someone hired from money already
> collected?
> >>
> >> Thanks for an answer,
> >> Daniel
> > ___
> > pypy-dev mailing list
> > pypy-dev@python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
>
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Re: [pypy-dev] Forwarding...

[Maciej Fijalkowski]

Hi Daniel.

We've done all of the proposed scenarios. We had some success talking
to companies, but there is a lot of resistance for various reasons
(and the successful proposals I can't talk about), including the
inability to pay open source from the engineering budget and instead
doing it via the marketing budget (which is orders of magnitude
slower). In short - you need to offer them something in exchange,
which usually means you need to do a good job, but not good enough (so
you can fix it for money). This is a very perverse incentive, btu this
is how it goes.

As for kickstarter - that targets primarily end-user experience and
not infrastructure. As such, it's hard to find money from users for
infrastructure, because it has relatively few direct users - mostly
large companies.

As for who is working on this subject - I am. Feel free to get in
touch with me via other channels (private mail, gchat, IRC) if you
have deeper insights

Best regards,
Maciej Fijalkowski

On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Armin Rigo  wrote:
> On 19 May 2016 at 14:58,   wrote:
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Daniel Hnyk 
>> To: pypy-dev@python.org
>> Cc:
>> Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 12:58:36 +
>> Subject: Question about funding, again
>> Hello,
>>
>> my question is simple. It strikes me why you don't have more financial 
>> support, since PyPy might save quite a lot of resources compared to CPython. 
>> When we witness that e.g. microsoft is able to donate $100k to Jupyter 
>> (https://ipython.org/microsoft-donation-2013.html), why PyPy, being even 
>> more generic then Jupyter, has problem to raise few tenths of thousands.
>>
>> I can find few mentions about this on the internet, but no serious article 
>> or summary is out there.
>>
>> Have you tried any of the following?
>>
>> 1. Trying to get some funding from big companies and organizations such as 
>> Google, Microsoft, RedHat or some other like Free Software Foundation? If 
>> not, why not?
>> 2. Crowd founding websites such as Kickstarter or Indiegogo get quite a big 
>> attention nowadays even for similar projects. There were successful 
>> campaigns for projects with even smaller target group, such as designers 
>> (https://krita.org/) or video editors (openshot 2). Why haven't you created 
>> a campaign there? Micropython, again, with much smaller target group of 
>> users had got funded as well.
>>
>> Is someone working on this subject? Or is there a general lack of man power 
>> in PyPy's team? Couldn't be someone hired from money already collected?
>>
>> Thanks for an answer,
>> Daniel
> ___
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Re: [pypy-dev] Looking into numpy ndarray.flags.writeable

[Eli Stevens (Gmail)]

I've got a pypy clone and checkout, and have added TestFlags. When I
run it, I see:

>   a.flags.writeable = False
E   TypeError: readonly attribute

But nothing that looks like it should raise a TypeError in either of:

pypy/pypy/module/micronumpy/flagsobj.py
pypy/pypy/module/micronumpy/ndarray.py

Still trying to get oriented with the code. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Eli

On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Matti Picus  wrote:
> On 18/05/16 20:19, Eli Stevens (Gmail) wrote:
>
> Great, thanks for the pointers. I'll hopefully be able to dig in after
> work tonight. Is there a from-scratch guide to getting to the point
> where I can run those micronumpy tests? NBD if not, I'm sure I can
> figure it out.
>
> Do you think it would make sense to start off by copying
> test_multiarray.py:TestFlags there?
>
> Cheers,
> Eli
>
> On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 9:59 AM, Matti Picus  wrote:
>
> It seems you are doing everything correctly.
> multiarray_tests comes from numpy/core/src/multiarray/multiarray.c.src which
> is compiled to a C-API module.
> We skip building it as we have quite a way to go before we can support that
> level of C-API compatibility.
> The issue with readonly flag attributes actually lies with micronumpy, in
> the pypy interpreter itself.
> If you wish to work on this, you should add a test (in the pypy repo) to
> pypy/module/micronumpy/test/test_flagsobj.py and continue from there.
> Matti
>
> There is an explanation of running tests here
> http://doc.pypy.org/en/latest/getting-started-dev.html#running-pypy-s-unit-tests
> The tests in TestFlags require refactoring for our simpler 'assert' style -
> no fancy assert_equal() or assert_() functions
> Matti
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