[Python-Dev] Re: Increase of Spammy PRs and PR reviews

[Brian Curtin]

I was using points in a more generic sense, making your "contribution
activity overview" look nicer—I wasn't sure if "points" was an actual thing
or not, so maybe I'm speaking out of turn. Mine shows 70% of my actions are
code review, then issues, commits, and PRs are 10% each.

On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 9:40 AM Guido van Rossum  wrote:

> Where does it say that a review gives you points? The GitHub blog post I
> saw about the subject only mentions commits.
>
> On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 8:16 AM Brian Curtin  wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 8:42 AM Mats Wichmann  wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/30/22 04:45, Inada Naoki wrote:
>>> > On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 7:37 PM Irit Katriel <
>>> iritkatr...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Some people may do "approval without review" to make their "Profile"
>>> > page richer, because GitHub counts it as a contribution.
>>> > Creating spam issues or pull requests can be reported as spam very
>>> > easily. But "approve without review" is hard to be reported as spam.
>>> > So approving random issue is the most easy way to earn contributions
>>> > without reported as spam.
>>>
>>> Whnever there are metrics, some will find a way to game the system to
>>> make theirs look better - this certainly isn't limited to github, or to
>>> tech, or in any way a recent thing.
>>>
>>
>> Certainly true, and I think this is more of a social problem than a
>> technical one. If people are giving out review approvals to get more
>> points, you (where 'you' is a person with some privileges on the repo) can
>> click "dismiss review" and get rid of the noise, at least within that PR.
>> Maybe they still get points for the review, I'm not sure. Taking away the
>> ability for non-core contributors to offer official review approvals to
>> stop people like that only harms the people actually trying to do good work.
>>
>> Gaming the system doesn't end up working well in the end anyway. The
>> first time the gamers try to get a job interview and can't explain how
>> they'd do a code review—something GitHub says they've done hundreds or
>> thousands of times—the whole thing will fail.
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>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
> *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
> <http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-change-the-world/>
>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Increase of Spammy PRs and PR reviews

[Brian Curtin]

On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 8:42 AM Mats Wichmann  wrote:

> On 1/30/22 04:45, Inada Naoki wrote:
> > On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 7:37 PM Irit Katriel 
> wrote:
>
> > Some people may do "approval without review" to make their "Profile"
> > page richer, because GitHub counts it as a contribution.
> > Creating spam issues or pull requests can be reported as spam very
> > easily. But "approve without review" is hard to be reported as spam.
> > So approving random issue is the most easy way to earn contributions
> > without reported as spam.
>
> Whnever there are metrics, some will find a way to game the system to
> make theirs look better - this certainly isn't limited to github, or to
> tech, or in any way a recent thing.
>

Certainly true, and I think this is more of a social problem than a
technical one. If people are giving out review approvals to get more
points, you (where 'you' is a person with some privileges on the repo) can
click "dismiss review" and get rid of the noise, at least within that PR.
Maybe they still get points for the review, I'm not sure. Taking away the
ability for non-core contributors to offer official review approvals to
stop people like that only harms the people actually trying to do good work.

Gaming the system doesn't end up working well in the end anyway. The first
time the gamers try to get a job interview and can't explain how they'd do
a code review—something GitHub says they've done hundreds or thousands of
times—the whole thing will fail.
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[Python-Dev] Re: Stale PR

[Brian Curtin]

Before looking at the code, my first question would be about the
description: "I kinda ran out of time, i suspect more testing is due."

If you were out of time then it's probably not done and maybe lacks the
tests you initially thought it did, so did you find the time and/or is the
PR done?

On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 10:07 AM Yair Frid  wrote:

> Hello, a few months ago i created this PR:
> https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/24181
> Which has since gone stale, I would really like it to be reviewed before i
> continue fixing other issues as i do not want to have to deal with a
> backlog of PRs
> Thanks in advance, Yair.
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[Python-Dev] Re: Is the Python review process flawed?

[Brian Curtin]

On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 10:38 AM  wrote:

> I just stumbled upon the following issue and subsequent pull request. It
> is a very small bugfix. There is currently a bug in Python and this pull
> request fixes it. It's not a new feature or an enhancement, it is a bugfix!
> Yet, it doesn't get reviewed, nor merged. And this has been going on since
> March 2017. Why not just merge this? It's not like it's huge or obstructing
> or obfuscating the current code base? There's always time to write an
> improvement or a complete rewrite of this module feature later for an
> upcoming minor release. But if there is currently a bug in Python and the
> bugfix is available - why doesn't it get merged?
>
> https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/4819


For starters, the PR is closed in favor of another issue that has reviews
and a discussion, but even the smallest change like that requires a lot out
of a reviewer. Looking at that change, I don't personally know that it's
correct, so I'd have to take the time to figure out that it's correct. It
includes no tests, so I certainly don't trust that it's correct, so it
looks incomplete to me.

Time is irrelevant here—there's no need to rush things because a change
appears small. What if that one line change is even more wrong than before?
I have merge access and if I just said "ah it's a small PR and it's been
open for a while, I'll just merge it for them," any change to Python has
the possibility to affect a huge amount of people.

When I got the shutil.which feature merged, the PR had been open for I
believe 11 years and it was mostly complete in the initial patch outside of
a few small issues, and the change itself wasn't a lot of code. To just
have merged it because it was open for 11 years would have been the wrong
thing to do. It needed to cover some things it didn't initially cover, it
needed tests and documentation, and it wasn't merged until it was completed
and properly reviewed.

If this doesn't get fixed, doesn't that mean the Python review process is
> flawed? Sure, Python is an open source project and many people just work in
> their free time. But this doesn't really apply here, does it? The bugfix is
> available. Only a review is required. All this is happening while new
> features get added to Python with every new minor version. While the bug is
> allowed to live there. Please help me understand how this can happen.
>

"Only a review is required" is vastly understating the value of code
reviews. Almost anybody can write a one line fix, but is it the right fix?
Does it cover all of the cases it needs to? Is adding "manager_owned=False"
correct or should something else actually be done? Who knows and is
available to understand the impacts of this change?

So does this mean the review process is flawed? I would say no, the _review
process_ is maybe working as expected—the linked PR was incomplete and
wasn't merged, another PR has come up, and there's discussion on it
including a comment about tests and one about familiarizing with the code.
The process of finding humans who are willing and able to do this
work—currently for free—is possibly broken, possibly working as expected,
and overall is a significantly harder problem to fix than most anything
involved with open source software.

I love Python. No hard feelings. But this is really bugging me and I can't
> help but feel disappointed.
>

The good thing is that you paid nothing for this, so being disappointed is
something you can fix. If you would like more value out of it or to speed
up the process, you can provide your own reviews. Reviewing code is
immensely valuable and helps so many people—the core developers, the users,
and yourself. Alternatively, paying people to do the reviews is also
possible.

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[Python-Dev] Re: Steering Council update for February

[Brian Curtin]

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 17:54 Chris Angelico  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 11:47 AM Damian Shaw
>  wrote:
> >
> > > Does 'master' confuse people?
> >
> > There's a general movement to replace language from common programming
> practises that derive from, or are associated with, the dehumanization of
> people. Such as master and slave, as well as whitelist and blacklist.
> >
>
> Is that *actually* the origin of the term in this context, or is it
> the "master", the pristine, the original from which copies are made?
> There's no "slave" branch anywhere in the git repository.
>
> I detest these changes that create churn and don't actually solve any
> problems. They allow people to feel good about themselves for having
> "made a change", while actually making no useful change whatsoever
> (are disadvantaged people's lives going to be improved by this
> rename?). What next? Are we going to crack down on any courses that
> proclaim to help you to "master the Python language"? Does that, too,
> have to be renamed?


What an unfortunate response, but feel free to find something else to do
after the change has been made.

>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Python Documentation, Python language improvement, and productive discussion

[Brian Curtin]

Hey Team,

Has this workgroup started yet? If not, can I help get it going, or if so,
is there a mailing list or place where things are happening?

Brian Curtin

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 12:58 Carol Willing  wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> Thanks for the interest. I apologize for the delay in getting this
> workgroup started. I'm happy that there is strong interest in working on
> documentation and improving it for all users.
>
> I will do my best to get the workgroup charter drafted this week and then
> open an interest list for initial workgroup members.
>
> Luciano, I agree that rewriting asyncio docs and typing are helpful
> improvements and welcome your contributions to accessible and high quality
> docs.
>
> Warmly,
>
> Carol
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 9:21 AM Luciano Ramalho 
> wrote:
>
>> I am also interested in helping with making Python's documentation
>> more user friendly.
>>
>> Yuri Selivanov's rewrite of the asyncio documentation was brilliant.
>> We need more of that.
>>
>> My recent contribution to Python's doc doesn't compare with
>> Selivanov's awesome rewrite, but it involved reorganizing existing
>> documentation.
>>
>> The typing module chapter in the library reference is comprehensive,
>> and the top 1/3 of it has good narrative explanations to the core
>> concepts. But the remaining 2/3 of the content is in a single section
>> titled "Classes, functions, and decorators" that covers more than 70
>> objects, and there's no apparent ordering.
>>
>> With the help of Guido, I split that section in subsections, and
>> arranged the entries within the subsections by relevance to most
>> users—subjective, yes, but not too harmful if we made bad calls,
>> because now there are fewer entries per subsection.
>>
>> Before:
>> https://docs.python.org/3.8/library/typing.html
>>
>> After:
>> https://docs.python.org/3.10/library/typing.html
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Luciano
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 12:43 PM Mats Wichmann  wrote:
>> >
>> > On 8/5/20 10:43 AM, Dominic Davis-Foster wrote:
>> > > Hi Carol,
>> > >
>> > > I was wondering if you've been able to set up the workgroup yet? I'd
>> certainly be interested in participating the there's an opportunity.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Stay safe
>> > >
>> > > Dom
>> >
>> > Indeed, I was wondering if there were any updates - I'm also interested
>> > in participating.
>> >
>> > -- mats
>> > ___
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Luciano Ramalho
>> |  Author of Fluent Python (O'Reilly, 2015)
>> | http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920032519.do
>> |  Technical Principal at ThoughtWorks
>> |  Twitter: @ramalhoorg
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[Python-Dev] Re: [RELEASE] Python 2.7.18, the end of an era

[Brian Curtin]

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 7:31 AM Larry Hastings  wrote:

> On 4/20/20 8:06 AM, Benjamin Peterson wrote:
>
> I'm eudaemonic to announce the immediate availability of Python 2.7.18. [...] 
> Over all those years, CPython's core developers and contributors sedulously 
> applied bug fixes to the 2.7 branch, no small task as the Python 2 and 3 
> branches diverged.
>
>
> I'm glad you're enjoying your new thesaurus!
>
I'm glad he was able to keep up the ebullience so long. He was jocund about
2.7.0rc2 around this time ten years ago.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Helping with Documentation

[Brian Curtin]

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 9:36 AM Kenneth Reitz  wrote:

> Hello all,
>
>
>
> I’d like to become a core contributor to Python, by contributing polish to
> its documentation (adding missing pieces, modernize it a bit in spots, add
> more usage examples (itertools), etc).
>
>
>
> Is anyone already working on this, and if so, can I join forces with you?
>

I don't know of any specific or active documentation focus right now (save
for translation, which is mostly what doc-sig has been about lately), but
giving the docs love has been on my todo list for quite a while now with
tiny efforts here or there. Your general idea sounds good enough to just go
for it and put up PRs.

Feel free to add me as a reviewer—@briancurtin—and I'll help get things
merged.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

[Brian Curtin]

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 2:45 PM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev <
python-dev@python.org> wrote:

> On 03.05.2018 21:31, Brett Cannon wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, 3 May 2018 at 01:27 Paul Moore  wrote:
>
>> On 3 May 2018 at 03:26, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>>
>> >> Will all due respect, it's sometimes unpredictable what kind of wording
>> >> Anglo-Saxons will take as an insult, as there's lot of obsequiosity
>> >> there that doesn't exist in other cultures. To me, "not give a damn"
>> >> reads like a familiar version of "not care about something", but
>> >> apparently it can be offensive.
>> >
>> > I'm Anglo-Saxon[1], and honestly I believe that it is thin-skinned to
>> > the point of ludicrousness to say that "no-one gives a damn" is an
>> > insult. This isn't 1939 when Clark Gable's famous line "Frankly my dear,
>> > I don't give a damn" was considered shocking. Its 2018 and to not give a
>> > damn is a more forceful way of saying that people don't care, that they
>> > are indifferent.
>>
>> Sigh. That's not what I was saying at all. I was trying to point out
>> that Antoine's claim that people should ignore the rhetoric and that
>> complaining about the attitude was unreasonable, was in itself unfair.
>> People have a right to point out that a mail like the OP's was badly
>> worded.
>>
>> > With respect to Paul, I literally cannot imagine why he thinks that
>> > *anyone*, not even the tkinter maintainers or developers themselves,
>> > ought to feel *offended* by Ivan's words.
>>
>> Personally, they didn't offend me. I don't pretend to know how others
>> might take them. But they *did* annoy me. I'm frankly sick of people
>> (not on this list) complaining that people who work on projects in
>> their own time, free of charge, "don't care enough" or "are ignoring
>> my requirement". We all do it, to an extent, and it's natural to get
>> frustrated, but the onus is on the person asking for help to be polite
>> and fair. And maybe this response was the one where I finally let that
>> frustration show through. I may read less email for a week or two,
>> just to get a break.
>>
>
> I had the same response as Paul: annoyed. And while Ivan thought he was
> using "emotional language to drive the point home that it's not some
> nitpick", it actually had the reverse effect on me and caused me not to
> care because I don't need to invite annoyance into my life when putting in
> my personal time into something.
>
> No one is saying people can't be upset and if you are ever upset there's
> something wrong; we're human beings after all. But those of us speaking up
> about the tone are saying that you can also wait until you're not so upset
> to write an email. This was never going to be resolved in an hour, so
> waiting an hour until you're in a better place to write an email that
> wasn't quite so inflammatory seems like a reasonable thing to ask.
>
> Let me express things right from the horse's mouth.
>
> The sole purpose of the tone was to not let the mesage be flat-out ignored.
> I had my neutral-toned, to-the-point messages to mailing lists flat-out
> ignored one too many times for reasons that I can only guess about.
> This time, the situation was too important to let that happen.
>
> Whatever anyone may think of this, it worked. I got my message through,
> and got the feedback on the topic that I needed to proceed in resolving the
> problem that caused it.
> I seriously doubt I could achieve that with a neutral-toned message just
> stating the facts: dry facts would not show ppl how this could be important
> ("ah, just another n00b struggling with Tkinter basics" or something).
>

As I said on the other thread, that doesn't make it any more acceptable as
over time it normalizes the behavior. If enough people want results—because
yes, sometimes things break, it's not fun, and sometimes things don't
receive response in the most timely fashion—they'll take that tone and
sometimes get what they want. Eventually it'll work enough that it becomes
more acceptable to behave that way, and eventually the people who are
willing to accept that type of behavior will be gone.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 5:37 PM Antoine Pitrou <solip...@pitrou.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 2 May 2018 23:28:22 +0200
> Antoine Pitrou <solip...@pitrou.net> wrote:
> > On Wed, 02 May 2018 21:24:07 +
> > Brian Curtin <br...@python.org> wrote:
> > > On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 16:55 Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev <
> > > python-dev@python.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > As https://bugs.python.org/issue33257 and
> > > > https://bugs.python.org/issue33316 showed, Tkinter is broken, for
> both
> > > > Py2 and Py3, with both threaded and non-threaded Tcl, since 2002 at
> > > > least, and no-one gives a damn.
> > > >
> > > > This seems to be a testament that very few people are actually
> > > > interested in or are using it.
> > > >
> > > > If that's so, there's no use keeping it in the standard library -- if
> > > > anything, because there's not enough incentive and/or resources to
> > > > support it. And to avoid screwing people (=me) up when they have the
> > > > foolishness to think they can rely on it in their projects --
> nowhere in
> > > > the docs it is said that the module is only partly functional.
> > >
> > >
> > > For the future, this is not how you communicate with the development
> > > mailing list of any open source software project. I would suggest
> reading
> > > https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ for some pointers on how
> people
> > > typically behave around here in particular.
> >
> > Perhaps it would be more constructive to address the OP's point than to
> > play speech police.
>
> To elaborate a bit: the OP, while angry, produced both a detailed
> analysis *and* a PR.  It's normal to be angry when an advertised
> feature doesn't work and it makes you lose hours of work (or, even,
> forces you to a wholesale redesign). Producing a detailed analysis and a
> PR is more than most people will ever do.
>

It may be normal to be angry when something doesn't work the way it should,
but analyzing and creating a PR aren't the gateway to normalizing this
behavior. Sending thousands of people this type of email isn't how it works.

To address their point: no, next topic.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 16:55 Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev <
python-dev@python.org> wrote:

> As https://bugs.python.org/issue33257 and
> https://bugs.python.org/issue33316 showed, Tkinter is broken, for both
> Py2 and Py3, with both threaded and non-threaded Tcl, since 2002 at
> least, and no-one gives a damn.
>
> This seems to be a testament that very few people are actually
> interested in or are using it.
>
> If that's so, there's no use keeping it in the standard library -- if
> anything, because there's not enough incentive and/or resources to
> support it. And to avoid screwing people (=me) up when they have the
> foolishness to think they can rely on it in their projects -- nowhere in
> the docs it is said that the module is only partly functional.


For the future, this is not how you communicate with the development
mailing list of any open source software project. I would suggest reading
https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ for some pointers on how people
typically behave around here in particular.

>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Why is Python for Windows compiled with MSVC?

[Brian Curtin]

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 4:19 AM, Oleg Sivokon  wrote:

>
> > so why shouldn’t the one with the most users?
>
> Because it makes compilation difficult, and cross-compilatin completely
> impossible?  Why is it difficult: a package maintainer needs to (1) buy MS
> Windows (2) create a special workflow for compiling on a different
> machine.  This is both costly and inconsistent with free-as-in-freedom...
> It makes cross-compilation impossible because libraries produced by any
> tool that can run on all target platforms are incompatible with Python
> binaries on MS Windows.
>
> Again, many languages (i.e. projects similar in size an purpose to
> CPython) took a different approach: they use GNU compilers to be able to
> compile cross-platform.  This is true for Ruby and Go at least.  I would
> need to investigate further, but I think these two examples should be
> enough.
>

They should be enough for *what*, though? You can tell people what everyone
else is doing, but the difference between that and what we have is
someone's time and effort.

> I’m likely biased because I work there and I’m the main intermediary with
> python-dev, but these days Microsoft is one of the strongest supporters of
> CPython. We employ the most core developers of any private company and we
> all are allowed work time to contribute, we provide full access to our
> development tools and platforms to all core developers and some prominent
> projects, we’ve made fixes, enhancements and releases or core products such
> as the CRT, MSVC, Visual Studio, Visual Studio Code, and Azure SPECIFICALLY
> to support CPython development and users. As far as I know, ALL the Windows
> buildbots are running on Azure subscriptions that Microsoft provides
> (though managed by some awesome volunteers). You’ll see us at PyCon US
> under the biggest banner and we’ll have a booth filled with engineers and
> not recruiters. Crash reports from thousands of opted-in users come into
> our systems and have directly lead to both CPython and Windows bug fixes.
>
> Oh, so this is the real reason... well, corporate interests are hard to
> argue against.  But, this is an interesting statistic nevertheless.  Thanks
> for letting me know.


I think that's a mischaracterization of the situation. The MS toolchain was
chosen some time long before I (or Steve) got involved, and when I upgraded
us from VS2008 to VS2010 for 3.3 ~6 years ago I had several messages
similar to this thread. As much as Steve is unlikely to do the work to
initiate and maintain support of these other tools—whether due to his
employer's interests or his own—I too was unlikely to do work like this
thread is asking. In fact, the chances I would have done it were zero
because I was sitting on my couch upgrading our Visual Studio versions
because it let me do better stuff at my day job, though I was always open
to review patches that supported alternatives without major disruption.
However, they never came. I suspect the same could be said of Martin and
anyone else working in this area prior to that, because nothing has really
changed.

Like the previous times this sort of question has come up—and really, for
any question on this list—it ultimately turns into a matter of how much the
solution is wanted and how much effort people are willing to give to make
it happen. Historically, the former has had small amounts, and the latter
has had much smaller amounts. Without a change there I don't think one will
materialize in a released version of Python.

Brian
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Re: [Python-Dev] Reorganize Python categories (Core, Library, ...)?

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 5:52 AM, Victor Stinner 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Python uses a few categories to group bugs (on bugs.python.org) and
> NEWS entries (in the Python changelog). List used by the blurb tool:
>
> #.. section: Security
> #.. section: Core and Builtins
> #.. section: Library
> #.. section: Documentation
> #.. section: Tests
> #.. section: Build
> #.. section: Windows
> #.. section: macOS
> #.. section: IDLE
> #.. section: Tools/Demos
> #.. section: C API
>
> My problem is that almost all changes go into "Library" category. When
> I read long changelogs, it's sometimes hard to identify quickly the
> context (ex: impacted modules) of a change.
>
> It's also hard to find open bugs of a specific module on
> bugs.python.org, since almost all bugs are in the very generic
> "Library" category. Using full text returns "false positives".
>
> I would prefer to see more specific categories like:
>
> * Buildbots: only issues specific to buildbots
>

I would expect anything listed under buildbot to be about infrastructure
changes related to the running of build machines.

I think what you're getting at are the bugs that appear on build machines
that weren't otherwise caught during the development of a recent change. In
the end those are still just bugs in code, so I'm not sure I would group
them at such a high level. Wouldn't this be a better use of the priority
field?
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 553: Built-in debug()

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 10:46 AM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:

> IIRC they indeed insinuate debug() into the builtins. My suggestion is
> also breakpoint().
>

I'm also a bigger fan of the `breakpoint` name. `debug` as a name is
already pretty widely used, plus breakpoint is more specific in naming
what's actually going to happen.

sys.breakpoint_hook() and sys.__breakpoint_hook__ seem reasonable
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Re: [Python-Dev] Exact date of Python 2 EOL?

[Brian Curtin]

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> On Mar 23, 2017, at 09:41 AM, Victor Stinner wrote:
>
>>Can we pick an official date?
>
> Benjamin should pick the date and update PEP 373.

Not to start a bikeshed (calendarshed?), but how about 8 February
2020, or 2/8 as some in the US would write it?
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Re: [Python-Dev] Top python roles

[Brian Curtin]

There are a lot more than "guys" on this list, and it's for the development
of the Python language, not for recruiting.

Please take this elsewhere.

On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 20:10 Marta Daglow 
wrote:

> Hi Guys,
>
>
>
> How are you guys?
>
>
>
> I’ve just gotten off the phone with a top engineering leader from a
> wonderful company in SF and they are looking for someone with python
> expertise.
>
>
>
> They are looking to hire many people in the range of $100 – 160K.
>
>
>
> Warm Regards,
>
>
>
> Marta
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Re: [Python-Dev] I hope this won't be my last comment here ~ yet it may well be...

[Brian Curtin]

On Thursday, April 21, 2016, Burkhard Meier 
wrote:

> Please do allow me to share my humble experiences of being a software
> professional on a Windows platform.
>
> Almost 20 years.
>
> You know what; when I tried out 'sugar Linux' or Peppermint,,,the "admin'
> dude kicked me out 5 times in one sole eve,
>
> Maybe this is just *me*..
>
> You know what: I did have my time with this *open source community*...
>
> I was just asking a sincere question.
>
> C'mon
>
> This was rather very ridiculous.
>
>
>
As someone who spent many years as a Windows user and several years as a
contributor to the Windows build here, if you have constructive thoughts to
share on Python-on-Windows, please share them...but I can't decipher what
any of this message is actually about.

Additionally, you may want to try the python-list mailing list.
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[Python-Dev] Benchmark results across all major Python implementations

[Brian Curtin]

On Monday, November 16, 2015, Brett Cannon > wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2015 at 12:24 Maciej Fijalkowski  wrote:
>
>> Hi Brett
>>
>> Any thoughts on improving the benchmark set (I think all of
>> {cpython,pypy,pyston} introduced new benchmarks to the set).
>>
>
> We should probably start a mailing list
>

There is/was a sp...@python.org list.


> "speed.python.org" becoming a thing is generally stopped on "noone
>> cares enough to set it up".
>>
>
> Oh, I know. I didn't say this could be considered wishful thinking since I
> know I have enough on my plate to prevent me from making it happen.
>

There was a grant given years ago to improve some of this stuff but I don't
believe the work ever saw the light of day.
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[Python-Dev] Benchmark results across all major Python implementations

[Brian Curtin]

On Monday, November 16, 2015, Brett Cannon > wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2015 at 12:24 Maciej Fijalkowski  wrote:
>
>> Hi Brett
>>
>> Any thoughts on improving the benchmark set (I think all of
>> {cpython,pypy,pyston} introduced new benchmarks to the set).
>>
>
> We should probably start a mailing list
>

There is/was a sp...@python.org list.


> "speed.python.org" becoming a thing is generally stopped on "noone
>> cares enough to set it up".
>>
>
> Oh, I know. I didn't say this could be considered wishful thinking since I
> know I have enough on my plate to prevent me from making it happen.
>

There was a grant given years ago to improve some of this stuff but I don't
believe the work ever saw the light of day.
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Re: [Python-Dev] A quick word on top posting

[Brian Curtin]

On Monday, July 20, 2015, Emile van Sebille em...@fenx.com wrote:

 Your +infinity could have easily been top posted -- particularly when
 there's no in-line comments that require context.

 just-because-I'm-on-what-feels-like-a-300-baud-connection-ly yr's,

 Emile


 On 7/19/2015 2:16 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:

 On 19/07/2015 22:06, Brett Cannon wrote:


 snip

  There is absolutely no reason we can't keep discussions cordial,
 friendly, and on-point on this list and prevent this sort of debacle
 from occurring again.


 +infinity


Empty replies like a fake vote should just not occur in general. That's not
usually an issue on this list, but I see many others plagued by such
responses and hope we never end up on that path (especially people +1'ing a
+1...). Remember that not only do we need to keep emails to the
characteristics Brett mentioned for the sake of having a healthy
discussion list, we should strive to keep the noise as close to zero as
possible as mails sent to this list reach *a lot* of people.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Single-file Python executables (was: Computed Goto dispatch for Python 2)

[Brian Curtin]

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Chris Barker chris.bar...@noaa.gov wrote:
 I'm confused:

 Doesn't py2exe (optionally) create a single file executable?

 And py2app on the Mac creates an application bundle, but that is
 more-or-less the equivalent on OS-X (you may not even be able to have a
 single file executable that can access the Window Manager, for instance)

 Depending on what extra packages you need, py2exe's single file doesn't
 always work, but last I tried, it worked for a fair bit (I think all of the
 stdlib).

 I don't know what PyInstaller or others create. And I have no idea if there
 is a linux option -- but it seems like the standard of practice for an
 application for linux is a bunch of files scattered over the system anyway
 :-)

 Yes, the resulting exe is pretty big, but it does try to include only those
 modules and packages that are used, and that kind of optimization could be
 improved in any case.

 So is something different being asked for here?

 Barry Warsaw wrote:
 I do think single-file executables are an important piece to Python's
 long-term competitiveness.

 Really? It seems to me that desktop development is dying. What are the
 critical use-cases for a single file executable?

Donald mentioned one earlier: command line utilities. I want a single
CLI I can deploy to my customers that doesn't make them have to
install Python or even know it's Python at all. My users write code in
all types of languages on all OSes, but I should be able to produce
one thing that they can all use. Donald himself initiated the CLI in
particular I'm talking about, but Go is picking up steam here as we
have other utilities that quickly solved the write one thing, every
user can run it immediately, no one knows/cares what it's written in

When I worked on Ubuntu One, I was the Windows guy responsible for
making sure the end-user experience was the same there as it was on
Ubuntu. On Ubuntu we were a part of the base install and didn't have
to worry about much. On Windows we had none of that, not even the C
runtime, so we had some pre-installer work to do, and then a bunch of
py2exe hacking to make everything play nicely and transparently.
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Re: [Python-Dev] [python-committers] Do we need to sign Windows files with GnuPG?

[Brian Curtin]

On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 3 April 2015 at 10:56, Larry Hastings la...@hastings.org wrote:
 My Windows development days are firmly behind me.  So I don't really have an
 opinion here.  So I put it to you, Windows Python developers: do you care
 about GnuPG signatures on Windows-specific files?  Or do you not care?

 I don't have a very strong security background, so take my views with
 a pinch of saly, but I see Authenticode as a way of being sure that
 what I *run* is OK. Whereas a GPG signature lets me check that the
 content of a file is as intended. So there are benefits to both, and I
 thing we should continue to provide GPG signatures. (Disclaimer: I've
 never in my life actually *checked* a GPG signature for a file...)

I haven't been on Windows in a bit, but this is my
understanding/expectation as well.
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Re: [Python-Dev] version of freshly built 2.7 python

[Brian Curtin]

On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 10:19 PM, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us wrote:
 On 04/02, Alexander Walters wrote:
 On 4/2/2015 21:29, Ethan Furman wrote:

 I just built the latest version of Python 2.7 on my development machine -- 
 or so I thought.  When I invoke it, I get:

Python 2.7.6+ (2.7:1beb3e0507fa, Apr  2 2015, 17:57:53)

 Why am I not seeing 2.7.9?

 Are you building from mercurial or a source tarball?

 Mercurial:

   ethan@code:~/source/python/python2.7$ hg parent
   changeset:   90450:1beb3e0507fa
   branch:  2.7
   parent:  90434:b428b803f71f
   user:Zachary Ware zachary.w...@gmail.com
   date:Thu Apr 24 13:20:27 2014 -0500
   files:   Lib/test/test_itertools.py
   description:
   Issue #21346: Fix typos in test_itertools.  Patch by Brian Kearns.

That's almost a year old. Update it?
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Re: [Python-Dev] pep 7

[Brian Curtin]

On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 10:02 PM, Neil Girdhar mistersh...@gmail.com wrote:
 The code reviews I got asked me to revert PEP 7 changes.  I can understand
 that, but then logically someone should go ahead and clean up the code.
 It's not high risk if you just check for whitespace equivalence of the
 source code and binary equivalence of the compiled code.  The value is for
 people who are new to the codebase.

There are a lot of areas of the C code that aren't explicitly or
directly tested, so yes, a lot of changes are high risk, especially in
bulk. While a one time change while checking binary equivalence would
do it, it's also a huge amount of churn just to follow a guideline.
Without an automated checker for the guidelines, if things get in they
just get in, and sometimes you can modify them while making
improvements to the code, but sometimes it depends on what exactly
you're doing as well. On top of this, we already disallow mass PEP 8
changes to avoid the churn there as well, and it took a good bit of
convincing for another semi-recent mass change (although I can't
remember the topic, but it was deemed safe enough to make).

Another common issue with mass code churn like this is that it affects
tooling, such as `hg blame`
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Re: [Python-Dev] Why does pip upgrade to a random version?

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 1:04 PM, Martin Thoma i...@martin-thoma.de wrote:
 Could somebody please have a look at the following SO question? It seems as
 if I might have found a bug in pip:
 http://stackoverflow.com/q/28282671/562769

 TL;DR of the SO question:
 I executed `$ sudo pip install hwrt --upgrade` mutiple times and got a -
 seemingly random - version of hwrt installed.

Try the pip mailing list: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/pypa-dev
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Re: [Python-Dev] development

[Brian Curtin]

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015, Alan Armour aarm...@cipmail.org wrote:

 can you guys develop an audio kit that works around jackd or on windows
 directx? and tutorials to write synthesizers.  and drum machines like a
 tr-606 with triggers ( I want to trigger a drum synth like the March
 UDS(Soviet) Coolest drum synth EVER.


 Also, I think you should have a way to write assembler functions to really
 optimize speed and have a table and stuff for assembler learning for all
 cpus and stuff. even asm graphics and audio would be super useful in some
 instances.


That's not how this works.

If you would like to write all of that code and allow it to mature in the
wild while building a following around it and ensuring it is the best of
its kind and a general enough solution to be included in the Python
standard library, inclusion of that could be discussed in the future.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Compile Python on Windows (OpenSSL)

[Brian Curtin]

On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Victor Stinner
victor.stin...@gmail.com wrote:
 2015-01-13 23:18 GMT+01:00 Steve Dower steve.do...@microsoft.com:
 Technically, Python 3.5 requires Visual Studio 2015

 For me, it's *very* difficult to find how to install Visual Studio.
 There are many different websites and web pages which mention Visual
 Studio with a lot of versions and flavors (Express, Community,
 Ultimate, etc.).

 Visual Studio 2015 was not released yet :-/

 My VM has only a disk of 40 GB. Only 12 GB are free. I already have VS
 2008 Express and VS 2010 Express installed. I understood that
 Ultimate includes a *lot* of things, not only a C compiler.

 I found a free Visual Studio which is in fact Visual Studio 2013
 Community and I read that it's not free.

 I sent an email to Brian Curtin to ask to renew my MSDN account. He
 didn't reply yet.

I saw that and will send it on, but it's still going to take some time
to process - usually a week or so.

In the meantime, the first result searching for Visual Studio 2015
came up with 
http://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/downloads/visual-studio-2015-downloads-vs.aspx,
which seems to give you VS2015. I haven't tried to run it since I'm
not on Windows at the moment, but it looks correct.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Compile Python on Windows (OpenSSL)

[Brian Curtin]

On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:04 PM, Victor Stinner
victor.stin...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,

 To compile Python on Windows, there are a few information in the
 Developer Guide:
 https://docs.python.org/devguide/setup.html#windows-compiling

 Python 3.5 now requires Visual Studio 2010 *SP1*, or newer Visual Studio:
 http://bugs.python.org/issue22919#msg233637

 I found PCbuild\readme.txt which is not mentionned in the devguide :-/
 https://hg.python.org/cpython/file/56f717235c45/PCbuild/readme.txt
 (at least not on the Windows section of the setup page)

 I found some clues to build OpenSSL to be able to build the Python ssl
 module, but I still have issues.

 Is there a more complete documentation?

 I found how to install svn.exe, perl.exe and nasm.exe, but not how to
 install nmake.exe. I don't know the command to build OpenSSL.

For nmake, are you running this in a regular Command Prompt or in the
Visual Studio Command Prompt? The latter sets the right environment to
point you to some tools that VS installs, including nmake.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python 2.x and 3.x use survey, 2014 edition

[Brian Curtin]

On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 2:15 PM, Skip Montanaro
skip.montan...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Marko Rauhamaa ma...@pacujo.net wrote:

 IMO, you should consider forking your library code for Python2 and
 Python3.


 I don't get the idea that Brett Cannon agrees with you:

 http://nothingbutsnark.svbtle.com/commentary-on-getting-your-code-to-run-on-python-23

 While he doesn't explicitly say so, I got the distinct impression reading
 his recent blog post that he supports one source, not forked sources.

 In the absence to evidence to the contrary, I think of Brett as the most
 expert developer in the porting space.

I'm a few inches shorter than Brett, but having done several sizable
ports, dual-source has never even on the table. I would prefer the
run 2to3 at installation time option before maintaining two versions
(which I do not prefer at all in reality).
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Re: [Python-Dev] Move selected documentation repos to PSF BitBucket account?

[Brian Curtin]

On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 5:57 PM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote:
 On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 08:55:50AM -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote:

 But I strongly believe that if we want to do the right thing for the
 long term, we should switch to GitHub.

 Encouraging a software, or social, monopoly is never the right thing for
 the long term.

 http://nedbatchelder.com/blog/201405/github_monoculture.html


 I promise you that once the pain of the switch is over you will feel
 much better about it. I am also convinced that we'll get more
 contributions this way.

 I'm sure that we'll get *more* contributions, but will they be *better*
 contributions?

 I know that there are people who think that mailing lists are old and
 passe, and that we should shift discussion to a social media site like
 Reddit. If we did, we'd probably get twenty times as many comments, and
 the average quality would probably plummet. More is not necessarily a
 good thing.

If we need to ensure that we're getting better contributions than we
are now, then we should be interviewing committers, rejecting
newcomers (or the opposite, multiplying core-mentors by 100), and
running this like a business. I've written some crappy code that got
committed, so I should probably be fired.

Enabling our community to be active contributors is an important
thing. Give them a means to level up and we'll all be better off from
it.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Status of C compilers for Python on Windows

[Brian Curtin]

On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 7:29 PM, Victor Stinner victor.stin...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,

 Windows is not the primary target of Python developers, probably
 because most of them work on Linux. Official Python binaries are
 currently built by Microsoft Visual Studio. Even if Python developers
 get free licenses thanks for Microsoft, I would prefer to use an open
 source compiler if it would be possible. So *anyone* can build Python
 from scatch. I don't like the requirement of having a license to build
 Python. The free version (Visual Studio Express) only supports 32-bit
 and doesn't support PGO build (Profile-Guided Optimizations, which are
 disabled if I remember correctly because of compiler bugs).

 I know that it's hard to replace Visual Studio. I don't want to do it
 right now, but I would like to discuss that with you.

Although I'm not very active around here much anymore, I was primarily
working on Windows things within the last few years.

While we have a lot of Windows users, we don't have a lot of Windows
contributors. The huge amount of churn necessary to make a change away
from VS, or the more likely move to make it possible to support both
VS and insert other compiler, seems like a large amount of work that
doesn't turn up much of a benefit. Especially for a platform with
constrained developer availability, working software trumps all, so I
don't expect that a project like this is going to see the regular
contributors shifting their focus away from improving Python as it is.

With that said, I do see the benefit of being able to build Python
with a free compiler. It would be great for us to be able to say it's
always built with free tools, but I'm not sure who's going to make
this happen...
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Re: [Python-Dev] Sad status of Python 3.x buildbots

[Brian Curtin]

On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:


 On 3 Sep 2014 08:15, Victor Stinner victor.stin...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  x86 RHEL 6 3.x: TestReadline.test_init() fails, issue #19884. I don't
  have to this platform, I don't know how to fix it.

 Sorry, I haven't been a very good maintainer for that buildbot (the main
 reason it never graduated to the stable list). If you send me your public
 SSH key, I can add it (I think - if not, I can ask Luke to do it).
 Alternatively, CentOS 6 may exhibit the same problem.

 From a completely different perspective, does anyone have experience with
 using BuildBot with OpenStack hosted clients? We may be able to take
 advantage of the PSF's new(ish) Rackspace infrastructure to provide more
 stable test VMs.

Is this a Buildbot feature (as in Buildbot master spins up VMs fresh for a
test run, or something), or do you just want to spin up a bunch of VMs,
give access, and we configure them the same as we do today?
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Re: [Python-Dev] Bluetooth 4.0 support in socket module

[Brian Curtin]

On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:30 AM, Skip Montanaro s...@pobox.com wrote:

 On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Tim Tisdall tisd...@gmail.com wrote:
  Is there some online documentation with guidelines on how to contribute?

 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=contribute+to+python


This response is unacceptable.

Tim: check out https://docs.python.org/devguide/ and perhaps look at the
core-mentorship[0] mailing list while coming up with your first
contributions. It's a good first step to getting some guidance on the
process and getting some eyes on your early patches.

[0] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/core-mentorship/
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Re: [Python-Dev] subprocess shell=True on Windows doesn't escape ^ character

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 9:43 PM, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us wrote:
 On 06/11/2014 07:12 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:

 On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:

 ISTM what you want is not shell=True, but a separate function that
 follows the system policy for translating a command name into a
 path-to-binary. That's something that, AFAIK, doesn't currently exist
 in the Python 2 stdlib, but Python 3 has shutil.which(). If there's a
 PyPI backport of that for Py2, you should be able to use that to
 figure out the command name, and then avoid shell=False.


 Huh. Next time, Chris, search the web before you post. Via a
 StackOverflow post, learned about distutils.spawn.find_executable().


 -- import sys
 -- sys.executable
 '/usr/bin/python'

For finding the Python executable, yes, but the discussion and example
are about a 2.x version of shutil.which
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Re: [Python-Dev] Moving Python 3.5 on Windows to a new compiler

[Brian Curtin]

On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 8:22 PM, Zachary Ware
zachary.ware+py...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Steve Dower steve.do...@microsoft.com 
 wrote:
 Thoughts/comments/concerns?

 My only concern is support for elderly versions of Windows, in
 particular: XP.  I seem to recall the last let's update our MSVC
 version discussion dying off because of XP support.  Even though MS
 has abandoned it, I'm not sure whether we can yet.

 If that's a non-issue, or if we can actually drop XP support, I'm all for it.

Extended support ended in April of this year, so I think we should put
XP as unsupported for 3.5 in PEP 11 -
http://legacy.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0011/

I seem to remember that we were waiting for this anyway.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Moving Python 3.5 on Windows to a new compiler

[Brian Curtin]

On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 10:19 PM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sat, Jun 7, 2014 at 4:12 AM, Steve Dower steve.do...@microsoft.com wrote:
 Chris Angelico wrote:
 On Sat, Jun 7, 2014 at 1:41 AM, Steve Dower steve.do...@microsoft.com 
 wrote:
 What this means for Python is that C extensions for Python 3.5 and later 
 can be built using any version of MSVC from 14.0 and later.

 Oh, if only this had been available for 2.7!! Actually... this means that 
 14.0 would be a good target for a compiler change for 2.7.x, if such a 
 change is ever acceptable.

 Maybe, but I doubt it will ever be acceptable :)

 Well, there were discussions. Since Python 2.7's support is far
 exceeding the Microsoft promise of support for the compiler it was
 built on, there's going to be a problem, one way or the other. I don't
 know how that's going to end up being resolved.

We're going to have to change it at some point, otherwise we're going
to have people in 2018 scrambling to find VS2008, which will be 35
versions too old by then. No matter what we do here, we're going to
have a tough PR situation, but we have to make something workable. I'd
rather cause a hassle than outright kill extensions.

I would probably prefer we aim for VS 14 for 3.5, and then explore
making the same change for the 2.7.x release that comes after 3.5.0
comes out. Lessons learned and all that.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Moving Python 3.5 on Windows to a new compiler

[Brian Curtin]

On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 10:41 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
 On 06.06.2014 20:25, Brian Curtin wrote:
 On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 10:19 PM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sat, Jun 7, 2014 at 4:12 AM, Steve Dower steve.do...@microsoft.com 
 wrote:
 Chris Angelico wrote:
 On Sat, Jun 7, 2014 at 1:41 AM, Steve Dower steve.do...@microsoft.com 
 wrote:
 What this means for Python is that C extensions for Python 3.5 and later 
 can be built using any version of MSVC from 14.0 and later.

 Oh, if only this had been available for 2.7!! Actually... this means that 
 14.0 would be a good target for a compiler change for 2.7.x, if such a 
 change is ever acceptable.

 Maybe, but I doubt it will ever be acceptable :)

 Well, there were discussions. Since Python 2.7's support is far
 exceeding the Microsoft promise of support for the compiler it was
 built on, there's going to be a problem, one way or the other. I don't
 know how that's going to end up being resolved.

 We're going to have to change it at some point, otherwise we're going
 to have people in 2018 scrambling to find VS2008, which will be 35
 versions too old by then. No matter what we do here, we're going to
 have a tough PR situation, but we have to make something workable. I'd
 rather cause a hassle than outright kill extensions.

 I would probably prefer we aim for VS 14 for 3.5, and then explore
 making the same change for the 2.7.x release that comes after 3.5.0
 comes out. Lessons learned and all that.

 Are you sure that's an option ? Changing the compiler the stock
 Python from python.org is built with will most likely render
 existing Python extensions built for 2.7.x with x  (release that comes
 after 3.5.0) broken, so users and installation tools will end up
 having to pay close attention to the patch level version of Python
 they are using... which is something we wanted to avoid after
 we ran into this situation with 1.5.1 and 1.5.2 a few years ago.

None of the options are particularly good, but yes, I think that's an
option we have to consider. We're supporting 2.7.x for 6 more years on
a compiler that is already 6 years old. Something less than awesome
for everyone involved is going to have to happen to make that
possible.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Moving Python 3.5 on Windows to a new compiler

[Brian Curtin]

On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 10:56 PM,  dw+python-...@hmmz.org wrote:
 On Fri, Jun 06, 2014 at 10:49:24PM +0400, Brian Curtin wrote:

 None of the options are particularly good, but yes, I think that's an
 option we have to consider. We're supporting 2.7.x for 6 more years on
 a compiler that is already 6 years old.

 Surely that is infinitely less desirable than simply bumping the minor
 version?

It's definitely not desirable, but simply bumping the minor version
is not A Thing.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Moving Python 3.5 on Windows to a new compiler

[Brian Curtin]

On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 11:08 PM, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:

 On Jun 6, 2014, at 3:04 PM, Brian Curtin br...@python.org wrote:

 On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 10:56 PM,  dw+python-...@hmmz.org wrote:
 On Fri, Jun 06, 2014 at 10:49:24PM +0400, Brian Curtin wrote:

 None of the options are particularly good, but yes, I think that's an
 option we have to consider. We're supporting 2.7.x for 6 more years on
 a compiler that is already 6 years old.

 Surely that is infinitely less desirable than simply bumping the minor
 version?

 It's definitely not desirable, but simply bumping the minor version
 is not A Thing.

 Why? I mean even if it’s the same thing as 2.7 just with an updated
 compiler that seems like a better answer than having to deal with
 2.7.whatever suddenly breaking all C exts.

Because then we have to maintain 2.8 at a time when no one even wants
to maintain 2.7?
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Re: [Python-Dev] Moving Python 3.5 on Windows to a new compiler

[Brian Curtin]

On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 11:42 PM,  dw+python-...@hmmz.org wrote:
 On Sat, Jun 07, 2014 at 05:33:45AM +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

  Is it really any difference in maintenance if you just stop applying
  updates to 2.7 and switch to 2.8? If 2.8 is really just 2.7 with a
  new compiler then there should be no functional difference between
  doing that and doing a 2.7.whatever except all of the tooling that
  relies on the compiler not to change in micro releases won’t
  suddenly break and freak out.

 If the only difference between 2.7 and 2.8 is the compiler used on
 Windows, what happens on Linux and other platforms? A Python 2.8 would
 have to be materially different from Python 2.7, not just binarily
 incompatible on one platform.

 Grrmph, that's fair. Perhaps a final alternative is simply continuing
 the 2.7 series with a stale compiler, as a kind of carrot on a stick to
 encourage users to upgrade? Gating 2.7 life on the natural decline of
 its supported compiler/related ecosystem seems somehow quite a gradual
 and natural demise.. :)

Adding features into 3.x is already not enough of a carrot on the
stick for many users. Intentionally leaving 2.7 on a dead compiler is
like beating them with the stick.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Moving Python 3.5 on Windows to a new compiler

[Brian Curtin]

On Jun 6, 2014 6:01 PM, Sturla Molden sturla.mol...@gmail.com wrote:

 Brian Curtin br...@python.org wrote:

  Adding features into 3.x is already not enough of a carrot on the
  stick for many users. Intentionally leaving 2.7 on a dead compiler is
  like beating them with the stick.

 Those who want to build extensions on Windows will just use MinGW
 (currently GCC 2.8.2) instead.

Well we're certainly not going to assume such a thing. I know people do
that, but many don't (I never have).
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Re: [Python-Dev] Moving Python 3.5 on Windows to a new compiler

[Brian Curtin]

On Jun 6, 2014 6:33 PM, Sturla Molden sturla.mol...@gmail.com wrote:

 Brian Curtin br...@python.org wrote:

  Well we're certainly not going to assume such a thing. I know people do
  that, but many don't (I never have).

 If Python 2.7 users are left with a dead compiler on Windows, they will
 find a solution. For example, Enthought is already bundling their Python
 distribution with gcc 2.8.1 on Windows.

Again, not something I think we should depend on. A lot of people use
python.org installers.
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[Python-Dev] Download Counts (was: Language Summit notes)

[Brian Curtin]

On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote:
 I don't think we have recent download numbers since the Website
 overhaul (do we?), but Python 3 isn't an experimental concept
 language anymore (it hasn't been since 3.3 or 3.2, I'd say).

Using the old logs, which are still good through 2013, I've found the following:

The first year of a release series (month of final release month + 12mos):
2.6.x - 10.3 Million
2.7.x - 10.26M
3.2.x - 5.84M
3.3.x - 13.1M

2013 downloads (out of 34.79M across all possible versions):
2.6.x - 1.9M
2.7.x - 14.3M
3.2.x - 1.03M
3.3.x - 13.85M

3.3 had a big first year of availability (Oct '12-'13), and throughout
2013 it represented 48% of those versions listed above.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Download Counts (was: Language Summit notes)

[Brian Curtin]

On May 28, 2014 12:49 PM, Brian Curtin br...@python.org wrote:

 On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net
wrote:
  I don't think we have recent download numbers since the Website
  overhaul (do we?), but Python 3 isn't an experimental concept
  language anymore (it hasn't been since 3.3 or 3.2, I'd say).

 Using the old logs, which are still good through 2013, I've found the
following:

 The first year of a release series (month of final release month + 12mos):
 2.6.x - 10.3 Million
 2.7.x - 10.26M
 3.2.x - 5.84M
 3.3.x - 13.1M

 2013 downloads (out of 34.79M across all possible versions):
 2.6.x - 1.9M
 2.7.x - 14.3M
 3.2.x - 1.03M
 3.3.x - 13.85M

 3.3 had a big first year of availability (Oct '12-'13), and throughout
 2013 it represented 48% of those versions listed above.

Sorry for not being explicit: these are download counts for Windows
installers.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Download Counts (was: Language Summit notes)

[Brian Curtin]

On May 28, 2014 4:06 PM, Eli Bendersky eli...@gmail.com wrote:




 On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Guido van Rossum gu...@python.org
wrote:

 Is the Windows/Mac ratio still 70/30, with Linux in the single digits?


 Most Linux installs go through package managers which don't count here,
no?

I'll have to run something for the other non-Windows files, but the single
digit Linux downloads he meant are the tarballs. We'll (probably) never
know the true counts in the Linux world because of how pervasive Python is
within basically every distro, but that's also likely the case on Mac.

With Windows, since you must download Python it to use it, the numbers we
see are probably the most useful on their own. I'm giving a talk at PyCon
Russia that covers some of these numbers, so I'll probably try to dig up
more and turn it into a blog post.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Questions regarding Windows buildbots

[Brian Curtin]

On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Claudiu Popa pcmantic...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hello!

 I'm working on a patch for issue bugs.python.org/issue8579 (Add
 missing tests for FlushKey, LoadKey, and SaveKey in winreg). This
 issue requires the SeBackupPrivilege in order to use LoadKey and
 SaveKey. While acquiring the privilege
 isn't very complicated using ctypes, it fails with
 ERROR_NOT_ALL_ASSIGNED (1300) when the
 user has Administrative privileges, but it's not an Administrator,
 problem which can be eluded by
 running the script with elevated privileges. This leads me to a couple
 of questions:

 - should a Windows test be skipped if it can't acquire a certain privilege?

Yes. Check out any of the os.symlink tests - they're currently skipped
when the symlink privilege isn't held.

 - If we can acquire the privilege by elevating our process, does the
 Windows buildbots have UAC
  enabled and if so, how's the notification setting configured? For
 instance, elevating a process will
  trigger a new UAC window with the message Do you want to allow the
 following program from an unknown publisher to make  changes to this
 computer? on the recommended configuration, but this doesn't happen
 when the configuration is set to  Never notify.

That probably depends on how each machine is setup. If they happen to
get blocked on any individual slave, we'll just have to ask the owner
to change that setting.

Currently there are no Windows build slaves running as administrator.
I used to have one but the machine died and I never replaced it. I
also said a few months ago that I would get one setup again, but that
hasn't happened yet. I can get a new machine up and running but
probably not until next week as I'm at a conference.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tix version needed to build 2.7 Windows installer?

[Brian Curtin]

On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Zachary Ware
zachary.ware+py...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 4:20 PM, Zachary Ware
 zachary.ware+py...@gmail.com wrote:
 I updated the 2.7 buildbot scripts to pull in Tcl/Tk 8.5.15 a couple
 of weeks ago (see http://bugs.python.org/issue21303), but hadn't
 gotten anything done with Tix yet.  It should just need python.mak
 updated to point to Tcl/Tk 8.5.15; it's on my list to get fixed as
 soon as I can.

 Tix for 2.7 is now
 http://svn.python.org/projects/external/tix-8.4.3.5.  You can build it
 with this monster of a command, run from tix-8.4.3.5\win:

 nmake -f python.mak DEBUG=0 MACHINE=IX86 COMPILERFLAGS=-DWINVER=0x0500
 TCL_DIR=..\..\tcl-8.5.15.0 TK_DIR=..\..\tk-8.5.15.0
 INSTALL_DIR=..\..\tcltk all

 Use install instead of all after building to install it to
 ..\..\tcltk.  Set DEBUG and MACHINE as needed; DEBUG does not need to
 be set if you're building Release, but MACHINE always has to be set so
 that Tix uses the right build dir for Tk (IX86 for 32-bit, AMD64 for
 64-bit).

Awesome, thanks!

So I now have a fully working setup, at least for 32-bit, and have
backported the Path option from 3.3
(http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/a9d34685ec47). I ran into an issue
with win32com getting a 64-bit installer built but didn't have time to
look into it yet.

If anyone wants to try a 2.7 installer with that Path option, here's a
copy: http://briancurtin.com/python-dev/python-2.7.msi (this is not
signed, it'll warn you about that).
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[Python-Dev] Tix version needed to build 2.7 Windows installer?

[Brian Curtin]

This is mostly a question for Martin, but perhaps someone else would also know.

I'm trying to build the 2.7 installers so I can backport the path
option from 3.3, but I can't seem to figure out which version of Tix
is necessary to have a complete build. So far any of them on
http://svn.python.org/projects/external don't appear to be configured
to work with the combination of tcl and tk that are used on 2.7, per
the buildbot external scripts. It's another issue that Tix isn't even
downloaded by the scripts, but I'll do it manually right now just to
get this going.

Any tips?
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python 2.7.7. on Windows

[Brian Curtin]

On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 3:07 PM, Mike Miller python-...@mgmiller.net wrote:

 On 04/29/2014 05:12 AM, Steve Dower wrote:

 This would be an incredibly painful change that would surprise and hurt a
 lot of
 people.


 Hi, I think incredibly painful is overstating the case a bit. ;)  We're
 talking about an installer default, a setting that would still be changeable
 as it always has, that by definition only will affect brand new installs.


 Yes, it is possible for a non-admin user to install arbitrary packages
 into a
 place where an admin user may inadvertently run it, thereby providing
 escalation
 of privilege. On the other hand, that applies to a lot of development
 tools,
 especially since most users on Windows these days are actually limited
 administrators - ANYTHING they install could run when they elevate a
 certain
 process.


 None of Microsoft's Dev tools install to C:\, rather to ProgramFiles.  The
 fact that another security issue may exist is not a good justification for
 creating additional.


 On the other hand, Python from python.org is a tool that should only be
 installed by those who are prepared to manage it. On Windows it is easy
 enough
 to have a second, secured copy for your admin scripts and an unsecured
 copy for
 non-admin tasks.


 This sounds like the perspective of someone highly technical, forgetting
 that new users will be installing python as well and vastly outnumber us.
 Normal people need help to avoid security issues.

 Microsoft's guidelines on where to install software are clear, and don't
 make exceptions that tools should be installed to the root of the drive to
 bypass file system permissions, for convenience.


 I'm not sure what change you are proposing here... doesn't the installer
 already
 have an option to add to PATH? I'm sure I keep disabling it.


 No, it does not.  Unless it got slipped in when I wasn't looking.

 It should be an option though, I think everyone would agree.

The option to add the current install to your path was added 3.3.

 python.exe on my PATH because I have 10+ versions installed at any one
 time. I


 Remember, python-dev's are not the target users of this package, and are a
 rather minuscule fraction of the user base.

Knowing which Python you want on your path and that you want it on
your path at all is somewhat of an advanced usage. While beginners do
want to just open up cmd and type python and have it work, there are
better ways to accomplish that which don't involve system-wide path
manipulation or installation changes.

Several PC manufacturers have been known to use Python for various
system utilities, which is how Python sometimes ends up in the path on
your grandma's Dell*. Even for a beginner who just wants python to
work, we need to be careful to not wreck their entire system by
helping them get our fresh Python install to show up.

A more reasonable way to help beginners would be to create a shortcut
somewhere that starts up cmd with a modified path. They can do
whatever they want to do within that context without modifying their
entire system. If they learn that they later want their system-wide
path manipulated, they can do that within the installer or will known
how to do that themselves.

* watch Dave Beazley's PyCon 2014 talk for a good story involving one
of those manufacturer installed Pythons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ4Sn-Y7AP8
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python 2.7.7. on Windows

[Brian Curtin]

On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 7:04 PM, Steve Dower steve.do...@microsoft.com wrote:
 Mike Miller wrote:
 On 04/29/2014 05:12 AM, Steve Dower wrote:
 This would be an incredibly painful change that would surprise and
 hurt a lot of people.

 Hi, I think incredibly painful is overstating the case a bit. ;) We're 
 talking
 about an installer default, a setting that would still be changeable as it
 always has, that by definition only will affect brand new installs.

 Good point about it only affecting new installs, though that still 
 constitutes a lot of installs.

 Yes, it is possible for a non-admin user to install arbitrary packages
 into a place where an admin user may inadvertently run it, thereby
 providing escalation of privilege. On the other hand, that applies to
 a lot of development tools, especially since most users on Windows
 these days are actually limited administrators - ANYTHING they install
 could run when they elevate a certain process.

 None of Microsoft's Dev tools install to C:\, rather to ProgramFiles. The 
 fact
 that another security issue may exist is not a good justification for 
 creating
 additional.

 The fact that the mitigations are well known by the people who have to worry 
 about them is a good justification for not creating a compatibility issue. 
 It's easy for IT admins to install Python in a way that the files are 
 read-only, the .pyc and .pyo files are already there, and user site packages 
 will be used by default (I think that last one is easy?). The good IT admins 
 even know that they need to do this - perhaps we can help educate the bad 
 admins? (FWIW, if you have admin privileges on your own machine, YOU are the 
 IT admin. Are you a good one or a bad one?)

 On the other hand, Python from python.org is a tool that should only
 be installed by those who are prepared to manage it. On Windows it is
 easy enough to have a second, secured copy for your admin scripts and
 an unsecured copy for non-admin tasks.

 This sounds like the perspective of someone highly technical, forgetting that
 new users will be installing python as well and vastly outnumber us. Normal
 people need help to avoid security issues.

 One place where mitigations are added are the distributions (Canopy, 
 Anaconda, etc.). These packages redistribute Python and install to different 
 locations with different permissions (I'm not promising that they all do it 
 properly, but they have the opportunity to do so). The reference 
 implementation of CPython is typically not the best option for normal 
 people, who are much better served by one of these bundles.

 Microsoft's guidelines on where to install software are clear, and don't make
 exceptions that tools should be installed to the root of the drive to 
 bypass
 file system permissions, for convenience.

 I'm well aware of the guidelines, hence the practicality vs. purity comment. 
 I'm fairly certain that the installation to the root was originally about 
 ease of command-line access rather than bypassing permissions - the 
 permissions probably didn't exist for the first few versions of Python 
 (Python for DOS obviously didn't care... maybe it's always been about 
 backwards compatibility?)

 At this point, installing into the root is about not breaking everyone who 
 *knows* that Python installs into the root directory and always has.

 I'm not sure what change you are proposing here... doesn't the
 installer already have an option to add to PATH? I'm sure I keep disabling 
 it.

 No, it does not. Unless it got slipped in when I wasn't looking.

 It should be an option though, I think everyone would agree.

 Thanks Brett for pointing out that it arrived in Python 3. I'm sure it would 
 be an acceptable addition to 2.7.7, though you'd need to get it in before RC 
 and you'd also need to find someone who is keen and able to keep making 2.7 
 installers for Windows. Right now, we don't have anyone who is both.

If it's an acceptable change to the release manager (Benjamin?), and
if there's actually time before the RC (I don't know when it is
planned), I am willing to backport my 3.3 change to get this in the
2.7 installer.

However, I'm not currently setup to make release installers -- I think
I need a signing certificate or something like that.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Whats New in 3.4 is pretty much done...

[Brian Curtin]

On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 8:29 PM, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote:
 On 3/13/2014 7:34 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

 Christian Heimes writes:

But I don't want it to sound like an advert... Suggestions?

 Not to worry.  It *can't* be an advert -- it's all true, and there are
 no irrelevant half-naked glistening bodies.  (Former newts in the pond
 don't count.)

 Seriously, while expect a clean build is not news for Python,


 It is for a Windows repository build. I just rebuilt: 3.3 gives lots of
 warning from multiple files; 3.4 none.


 Accompanied by an open invitation for reports to
 the contrary, that's hardly like a commercial.


 Now that no warnings is a serious goal for 3.4+, I will report them should
 they recur.

If we're at no warnings, and no warnings is a serious goal, warnings
should be errors.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python 4: don't remove anything, don't break backward compatibility

[Brian Curtin]

On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 8:55 AM, Victor Stinner
victor.stin...@gmail.com wrote:
 For example, I propose to release the next major Python version (3.5)
 with the version 4.0 but without removing anything.

People put a lot of weight behind version numbers, often much more
than they should. Jumping to 4.0 would be a PR nightmare and would
ultimately hurt this project as more people decide that switching to
another language will solve their problem better than jumping from 2.x
to 4.0. People already think 2.7 to 3.4 is enough of a burden.

Please do not do this.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Getting Introduced with the Community and Looking forward to Contribute to the Project as part of Gsoc 2014

[Brian Curtin]

On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 10:34 AM, Nitika nitikaagarwa...@gmail.com wrote:
 I had got myself aware of the source to some extent and had forked on my 
 github account.

The python source isn't forked in your github. A Github mirror of the
Mercurial repository (hg.python.org) is available at
https://github.com/python/cpython
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: [python-tulip] Need help to finish asyncio documentation

[Brian Curtin]

On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 6:00 PM, MRAB pyt...@mrabarnett.plus.com wrote:
 On 2014-02-08 23:32, Guido van Rossum wrote:

 We could really use more help reviewing and finishing asyncio's docs!

 Some spelling mistakes:

 http://docs.python.org/dev/library/asyncio.html
 mimicks

 http://docs.python.org/dev/library/asyncio-task.html
 returing
 nummber

 http://docs.python.org/dev/library/asyncio-protocol.html
 correspondong

 http://docs.python.org/dev/library/asyncio-stream.html
 Sublclass

 http://docs.python.org/dev/library/asyncio-subprocess.html
 subproces
 signale

Fixed: http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/3cfaeb788e00 - thanks!
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Re: [Python-Dev] str.rreplace

[Brian Curtin]

On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 11:40 AM, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
 On 24/01/2014 17:19, Ram Rachum wrote:

 Hmm, on one hand I understand the need for the separation between
 python-dev and python-list, but on the other hand I don't think
 python-list is a good place to discuss Python, the language.

 I now looked at the 17 most recent python-list threads. Out of them:

   - 58% are about third-party packages.
   - 17% are off-topic (not even programming related)
   - 11% are 2-vs-3 discussions
   - 5% are job offers.
   - 5% (which is just one thread out of 17) is about Python the language.



 I'm extremely impressed by your knowledge of statistics, it must have taken
 you many man years of effort to analyse all 17 threads in such detail.


 So can you understand why someone would be reluctant to start a
 discussion in python-list about Python the language there? Especially if
 this is the same place where beginners might ask newbies questions about
 Python? (So not only are actual Python questions just 5% of the content,
 non-newbie questions are just a subset of that 5%.)

 it's full of people asking about third-party Python packages, or asking
 newbie questions.


 How terrible, fancy having the audacity to ask about third party packages or
 newbie questions on the *MAIN* Python mailing list.  There's yet another
 reason to bring back the death penalty in the UK.

Please adjust the tone of your messages if you are going to use this
mailing list.
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Re: [Python-Dev] str.rreplace

[Brian Curtin]

On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
 On 24/01/2014 22:44, Brian Curtin wrote:

 On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 11:40 AM, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk
 wrote:

 On 24/01/2014 17:19, Ram Rachum wrote:


 Hmm, on one hand I understand the need for the separation between
 python-dev and python-list, but on the other hand I don't think
 python-list is a good place to discuss Python, the language.

 I now looked at the 17 most recent python-list threads. Out of them:

- 58% are about third-party packages.
- 17% are off-topic (not even programming related)
- 11% are 2-vs-3 discussions
- 5% are job offers.
- 5% (which is just one thread out of 17) is about Python the
 language.



 I'm extremely impressed by your knowledge of statistics, it must have
 taken
 you many man years of effort to analyse all 17 threads in such detail.


 So can you understand why someone would be reluctant to start a
 discussion in python-list about Python the language there? Especially if
 this is the same place where beginners might ask newbies questions about
 Python? (So not only are actual Python questions just 5% of the content,
 non-newbie questions are just a subset of that 5%.)

 it's full of people asking about third-party Python packages, or asking
 newbie questions.


 How terrible, fancy having the audacity to ask about third party packages
 or
 newbie questions on the *MAIN* Python mailing list.  There's yet another
 reason to bring back the death penalty in the UK.


 Please adjust the tone of your messages if you are going to use this
 mailing list.


 I'm sorry but I do not understand, please explain what is wrong with an
 extremely heavy dose of sarcasm.

There's a real discussion going on and you're just responding to throw
around sarcasm. People aren't going to come to this list if you're
just going to give them snarky replies. It's not helping.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Enable Hostname and Certificate Chain Validation

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 12:10 PM, John Yeuk Hon Wong
gokoproj...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 1/22/14 8:16 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:

 Which is exactly the way most non-web-specialists working inside the
 comfort of corporate and academic firewalls will react to a change that
 breaks their access to internal applications, where self-signed certs and
 improperly configured internal CAs are endemic (of course, that's assuming
 they're using HTTPS at all, which I admit is an optimistic assumption).

 The number of people who are using 3.4+ in these environments is probably
 very very low to be honest. I don't have a number to prove, but in that
 environment people are more likely to still be using 2.6+. I think a
 deprecation in 2.7+ would be nice, but forward we should just enable it by
 default.

 When requests changed property calls (e.g. requests.json) to callable
 instead of an attribute(from requests.json to requests.json()), I was
 shocked. I had to figure out by Googling it. I found out from github
 issue

 I think a hard fail is somehow necessary.

 Also, a lot of people overlook at deprecation warnings. They either don't
 care or don't see it. I see a lot of deprecation warnings in the older
 applications I write, but I can careless until it breaks. So as we moving
 forward, we can break it. For those stuck behind, deprecation is the right
 approach.

They're disabled by default, so a lot of people simply don't know they
exist because they also don't read the documentation.
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Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results

[Brian Curtin]

On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 3:08 AM, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, John Yeuk Hon Wong
 gokoproj...@gmail.com wrote:
 I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a
 reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+.

 Not specifically for 2.7 and 3.3, no. This is a fairly complete list:

 http://python3porting.com/differences.html

 There are PEPs and books, but is there any such long list of references?

 If not, should we start investing in one? I know the basic one such as
 xrange and range, items vs iteritems, izip vs zip that sort of uniform
 syntax/library inclusion difference.

 If there is such reference available?

 I'm honestly despairing that people still don't know that there is a
 free book on the topic. I have no idea how to increase the knowledge
 on this point.

I think we collectively need better SEO, or something like that.
Python 3 would be in a better place if people actually knew the
current state of things, versus asking people on Hacker News.

I constantly see people claiming they are stuck on Python 2 until
NumPy, SciPy, and matplotlib are ported. Many of these people state
they would love to use Python 3 if it weren't for those projects.
However, those projects have all been ported -- and the first two have
been available for several years now.

The same goes for differences documents. I think 15 of us have written
such documents, most of which cross-reference the other documents.
Somehow very few people seem to know about any of them.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Running the unit test as root/administrator

[Brian Curtin]

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 8:14 PM, Ryan Gonzalez rym...@gmail.com wrote:

 Just don't run it on Windows...


Not helpful.

I'm in meetings/training/traveling all week, but I'll get another Windows
build slave up within the next few days. I used to have a spare desktop box
that ran a build slave as admin so it would exercise the os.symlink code,
but I moved, then the box died, etc.
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 0404 and VS 2010

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 5:36 PM, Christian Tismer tis...@stackless.com wrote:
 Hey Barry,


 On 20.11.13 23:30, Barry Warsaw wrote:

 On Nov 20, 2013, at 09:52 PM, Christian Tismer wrote:

 Many customers are forced to stick with Python 2.X because of other
 products,
 but they require a Python 2.X version which can be compiled using Visual
 Studio 2010 or better.  This is considered an improvement and not a bug
 fix,
 where I disagree.

 I'm not so sure about that.  Python 2.7 can still get patches to help
 extend
 its useful life by allowing it to be built with newer compiler suites.  I
 believe this has already been done for various Linux compilers.  I see no
 non-technical reason why Python 2.7 can't be taught how to build with VS
 2010
 or newer.  Details are subject to RM approval, IMHO.

 I have created a very clean Python 2.7.6+ based CPython with the
 Stackless
 additions, that compiles with VS 2010, using the adapted project
 structure
 of Python 3.3.X, and I want to publish that on the Stackless website as
 the
 official Stackless Python 2.8. If you consider Stackless as official
 ;-) .

 This compiler change is currently the only deviation from CPython 2.7,
 but we may support a few easy back-ports on customer demand. We don'd add
 any random stuff, of course.

 I think you're just going to confuse everyone if you call it Stackless
 Python
 2.8 and it will do more harm than good.


 Barry, that's a good thing! This way I have a chance to get my build in at
 all.
 And that's the question, after re-thinking:

 Where can I check my change in, if it is going to be accepted as a valid
 2.7 bug fix (concerning VS 2008 as a bug, that is is)?

If you do end up checking something in, I think it should be a
backport of the 3.x VS2010 work, rather than contributing your own
patch starting from 2.7. Otherwise any differences in the way you did
things could cause pain while merging changes between the branches.
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Re: [Python-Dev] NTPath or WindowsPath?

[Brian Curtin]

On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Serhiy Storchaka storch...@gmail.com wrote:
 16.11.13 21:15, Antoine Pitrou написав(ла):

 In a (private) discussion about PEP 428 and pathlib, Guido proposed
 that maybe NTPath should be renamed to WindowsPath, since the name is
 more likely to stay relevant in the middle term. What do you think?


 What about nturl2path, os.name, sysconfig.get_scheme_names()?

What about them?
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Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython (2.7): Issue #XXXXX: Fix test_idle so that idlelib test cases are actually run

[Brian Curtin]

On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote:
 On 11/3/2013 11:48 PM, terry.reedy wrote:

 http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/cced7981ec4d
 changeset:   86908:cced7981ec4d
 branch:  2.7
 user:Terry Jan Reedy tjre...@udel.edu
 date:Sun Nov 03 23:37:54 2013 -0500
 summary:
Issue #X: Fix test_idle so that idlelib test cases are actually run
 under test.regrtest on 2.7.


 This message is the one included with the patch by Ned Daily. Because a
 message *was* included (not normal), hg import committed the patch
 immediately, without giving me a chance to edit the patch or message. As far
 as I know, there is no way I could have edited the message after the commit.
 If there was, let me know.

Besides what Zach mentions, most of the time you probably want to hg
import --no-commit patch, run it, test it, then commit it with
whatever message you want.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Support for marking limited API elements in C API docs

[Brian Curtin]

On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 3:17 PM, Serhiy Storchaka storch...@gmail.com wrote:
 12.10.13 22:56, Antoine Pitrou написав(ла):

 On Sat, 12 Oct 2013 21:19:16 +0200
 Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote:

 Am 12.10.2013 20:20, schrieb Serhiy Storchaka:

 12.10.13 21:04, Georg Brandl написав(ла):

 in light of the recent thread about PEPs not forming part of the docs,
 I've just pushed a change that allows to document C API elements
 not part of the limited API as such.  It is done like this:

 ... c:function:: int _PyTuple_Resize(PyObject **p, Py_ssize_t newsize)
  :notlimited:

 I have not yet begun adding these to the documents; if someone wants to
 help with this I am glad for volunteers.


 Why this is needed? The limited API is unstable and only developers of
 CPython can use it (but they can look in headers).


 Well, I may be reading PEP 384 wrongly, but the point is exactly to have
 a
 *stable* API for *non-core* developers to rely upon, so that they can
 build
 extensions that don't need to be recompiled for every version of Python.


 This is true.

 However, I find the proposed markup not very enlightening :-)
 I would prefer if limited APIs where marked with a :stableabi: tag.

 (limited API is really a bad synonym for stable ABI IMO)


 Why not limited private API should be documented at all besides sources?

Code is not documentation.
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Re: [Python-Dev] when to fix cross-version bugs?

[Brian Curtin]

On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 9:51 AM, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us wrote:
 I recently committed a fix for unicodeobject.c so that the %d, %i, and %u
 format specifiers always output values (otherwise, in subclasses, the str()
 was used instead).

 Should this be fixed in 3.3 as well?

 What guidelines determine when a bug is fixed in previous versions?

If it's a bug in that version and the version is accepting bug fixes,
i.e., not in security mode, go for it. This includes crossing the 2/3
boundary if applicable.
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 8 modernisation

[Brian Curtin]

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote:
 On 8/1/2013 11:03 AM, Alexander Shorin wrote:

 ...and, if so, why lambda's?(: Without backward compatibility point I
 see that they are getting unofficially deprecated and their usage is
 dishonoured.


 Please stop both the top-posting and the FUD.

Top posting doesn't matter.

The end.
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 8 modernisation

[Brian Curtin]

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 3:44 PM, Brian Curtin br...@python.org wrote:
 On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote:
 On 8/1/2013 11:03 AM, Alexander Shorin wrote:

 ...and, if so, why lambda's?(: Without backward compatibility point I
 see that they are getting unofficially deprecated and their usage is
 dishonoured.


 Please stop both the top-posting and the FUD.

 Top posting doesn't matter.

 The end.

Actually, quick expansion on this before moving along: if you're going
to call someone out for top posting, you can't ignore the many high
profile people who do it every time and single out the newcomer.
That's why I said something.

Sorry for the OT.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Official github mirror for CPython?

[Brian Curtin]

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Christian Heimes christ...@python.org wrote:
 Am 25.07.2013 16:29, schrieb Eli Bendersky:
 Hi all,

 I've been looking for a Github mirror for Python, and found two:

 * https://github.com/python-git/python has a lot of forks/watches/starts
 but seems to be very out of date (last updated 4 years ago)
 * https://github.com/python-mirror/python doesn't appear to be very
 popular but is updated daily

 Are some of you the owners of these repositories? Should we consolidate
 to a single semi-official mirror?

 +1

 Does the PSF have an official account on github? We have one on bitbucket...

I don't remember who runs this, and I thought I was in it (maybe just
on BB), but: https://github.com/python
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3 as a Default in Linux Distros

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Bohuslav Kabrda bkab...@redhat.com wrote:
 - Should we point /usr/bin/python to Python 3 when we make the move?

 No.

 To be more explicit. I think it's perfectly fine to not provide a
 /usr/bin/python at all, but I think pointing it to Python 3 will
 provide unhelpful error messages.

-1. For one example, this is going to add non-productive and
potentially confusing steps before any educator can use Python to
teach anything.
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Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Fix #18530. Remove extra stat call from posixpath.ismount

[Brian Curtin]

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 6:36 PM, Victor Stinner
victor.stin...@gmail.com wrote:
 Could you please keep the comment # A symlink can never be a mount point ?
 It is useful. (I didn't know that, I'm not a windows developer.)

I don't think that's specific to Windows, but I added it back in d6213012d87b.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Building a Faster Python

[Brian Curtin]

On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Ben Hoyt benh...@gmail.com wrote:
 PyBench2.0 shows the total running time dropping from 5653ms to 4571ms.

 That's very cool -- a significant improvement. Is this the kind of change
 that could go into 2.7.6 binaries?

 As a Windows user, it makes me wonder if compiling with the latest version
 of the Microsoft compiler would improve things similarly? (Though updating
 project files to that is almost certainly a bigger project than the gcc
 update.)

I think I have a 3.3 build on VS2012 somewhere - maybe I'll refresh it
for default/3.4 and run the same benchmarks on it. The changes
couldn't go into 2.7 as far as I'm aware, at least when it comes to
changing Visual Studio versions.
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Re: [Python-Dev] 2.7.5 baking

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote:
 Am 15.05.2013 09:55, schrieb M.-A. Lemburg:
 On 12.05.2013 06:03, Benjamin Peterson wrote:
 The long anticipated emergency 2.7.5 release has now been tagged. It
 will be publicly announced as binaries arrive.

 Originally, I was just going to cherrypick regression fixes onto the
 2.7.4 release and release those as 2.7.5. I started to this but ran
 into some conflicts. Since we don't have buildbot testing of release
 branches, I decided it would be best to just cut from the maintenance
 branch.

 Has the release been postponed ?

 I don't see it on http://www.python.org/download/

 Incidentally, the schedule already lists 2.7.5 as released on
 2013-05-12 (http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0373/) and
 the release calendar on 2013-05-11:
 https://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/b6v58qvojllt0i6ql654r1v...@group.calendar.google.com/public/basic?orderby=starttimesortorder=descending
 :-)


 We're still waiting for the Windows binaries.

 I think I will publish the source and Mac releases on the website now
 and make a note that Windows is coming shortly.

I'm going to get started building the MSIs this evening. I'm looking
into how I can obtain a code signing certificate, otherwise we'd
potentially be shipping unsigned security releases...*ducks*

 Has anybody heard from Martin recently?  I hope he's well and just
 overworked...

I asked some folks on the infrastructure team and the last they heard
from him was 11 April.
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Re: [Python-Dev] First post

[Brian Curtin]

On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Carlos Nepomuceno
carlosnepomuc...@outlook.com wrote:
 Hi guys! This is my first post on this list.

 I'd like have your opinion on how to safely implement WSGI on a production 
 server.

 My benchmarks show no performance differences between our PHP and Python 
 environments. I'm using mod_wsgi v3.4 with Apache 2.4.

 Is that ok or can it get faster?

 Thanks in advance.

Hi - this list is about the development of Python. For user questions,
python-list is a better place to ask this.
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Re: [Python-Dev] make a Windows installation package (.msi) for Python 3.3

[Brian Curtin]

On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Jianfeng Mao j...@rocketsoftware.com wrote:
 To Python Windows Release Managers:



 My name is Jianfeng Mao and I am a software developer at the U2 group in
 Rocket Software (http://u2.rocketsoftware.com/).   I am currently working on
 a project to embed a slightly customized Python interpreter in our product.
 For easy installation and setup,  we hope to be able to do the standard
 Python installation during the installation of our software.  Basically I
 want to create a .msi file that can be called to install the full Python if
 the user needs this new feature. Brian Curtin (br...@python.org)  pointed me
 to Tools/msi/msi.py for the Windows MSI builder. I tried to follow  the
 instructions in the README but couldn’t make it to work after a few twists
 and turns.  Brian mentioned that few people needs to do this and only
 release managers handle the packaging of Python.  I have listed the steps I
 have done in my attempt to create the .msi file. Please let me know if I
 have missed anything  or done anything wrong.





 1.   hg clone http://hg.python.org/cpython

 2.   cd cpython

 3.   hg update 3.3

 4.   cd tools\buildbot,  edit build.bat to change the configuration from
 Debug to Releaes; edit external.bat, change DEBUG=1 to DEBUG=0

 5.   go back to cpython\ and run tools\buildbot\build.bat

 6.   cd PC, then do ‘nmake –f icons.mak’

 7.   cd ..\tools\msi

 8.   c:\python27\python msi.py



 WARNING: nm did not run successfully - libpythonXX.a not built

 cl /O2 /D WIN32 /D NDEBUG /D _WINDOWS /MT /W3 /c msisupport.c

 Microsoft (R) 32-bit C/C++ Optimizing Compiler Version 16.00.40219.01 for
 80x86

 Copyright (C) Microsoft Corporation.  All rights reserved.



 msisupport.c

 link.exe /OUT:msisupport.dll /INCREMENTAL:NO /NOLOGO /DLL
 /SUBSYSTEM:WIN

 DOWS /OPT:REF /OPT:ICF msisupport.obj msi.lib kernel32.lib

Creating library msisupport.lib and object msisupport.exp

 Traceback (most recent call last):

   File msi.py, line 1336, in module

 add_files(db)

   File msi.py, line 961, in add_files

 generate_license()

   File msi.py, line 914, in generate_license

 raise ValueError, Could not find +srcdir+/../+pat

 ValueError: Could not find C:\temp\cpython/../tcl8*

I'm in an airport and on a Mac right now so I can't test it, but IIRC
you just need to adjust the script to look for tcl-8* and not tcl8* on
line 908 of msi.py. You'll probably have to do the same for tk. If you
come across other exceptions about tcl, tk, or other dependencies,
it's likely that the paths are just incorrect.

There may be a patch for this on bugs.python.org because I know I've
gone through it.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Any script to create the installation pacakge of Python 3.3.1 on Windows and *NIX?

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 7:37 PM, Jianfeng Mao j...@rocketsoftware.com wrote:
 To Python-Dev committers:



 I am working on a project to embed a slightly customized Python interpreter
 in our own software. For easy installation and setup, we want to be able to
 do the standard Python installation as part of the installation of our
 product.  So far I have successfully customized and built Python 3.3.1
 (including the subprojects) on Windows but I can’t find anything in the
 source distribution to allow me package the binaries/modules etc into a MSI
 just like the one on the download page on python.org.  So I am asking for
 information regarding how to package Python build for installation on both
 Windows and *NIX platforms.  Your help will be greatly appreciated.

See Tools/msi/msi.py for the Windows MSI builder.
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 379 Python launcher for Windows - behaviour for #!/usr/bin/env python line is wrong

[Brian Curtin]

On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 3:23 PM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
 I would propose that the behaviour of the launcher on Windows should be
 changed when it encounters specifically the hashbang line #!/usr/bin/env
 python. In that case, it should search PATH for a copy of python.exe, and if
 it finds one, use that. If there is no python.exe on PATH, it should fall
 back to the same version of Python as would have been used if the line were
 #!/usr/bin/python.

 This will mean that scripts written with #!/usr/bin/env python will behave
 the same on Unix and Windows in the presence of activated virtualenvs.

 Would people be happy with this change? If so I will open an issue on
 bugs.python.org. I can look at producing a patch, as well.

Sounds reasonable to me.
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Re: [Python-Dev] I cannot create bug reports

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 1:55 PM, Daniel Wong allyourc...@gmail.com wrote:
 Thank you. That was the problem.

 I feel kind of stupid now. In my defense, the error message could have been
 more helpful, and requesting the bug creation form could have thrown up a
 login error instead of showing up blank. File another bug?

Bugs about the bug tracker go to http://psf.upfronthosting.co.za/roundup/meta/
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Re: [Python-Dev] Destructors and Closing of File Objects

[Brian Curtin]

On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 12:04 AM, Nikolaus Rath nikol...@rath.org wrote:
 [ Note: I already asked this on
 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15917502 but didn't get any
 satisfactory answers]

Sorry, but that's not a reason to repost your question to this list.
If you have to ask somewhere else, it would be python-list, aka,
comp.lang.python.
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[Python-Dev] Google Summer of Code - Organization Deadline Approaching - March 29

[Brian Curtin]

Just an FYI that there are under 3 days to apply to Google Summer of
Code for mentoring organizations:
http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/homepage/google/gsoc2013. The
student application deadline is later on in May.

If you run a project that is interested in applying under the Python
umbrella organization, contact Terri Oda at te...@zone12.com

Is anyone here interested in leading CPython through GSOC? Anyone have
potential students to get involved, or interested in being a mentor?
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Re: [Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Xavier Morel python-...@masklinn.net wrote:
 That would be a blow to educators, but also Windows users: while the CLI
 works very nicely in unices, that's not the case with the win32 console
 which is as best as I can describe it a complete turd, making IDLE a
 very nice proposition there (I never use IDLE on Linux or OSX, but do
 all the time in Windows).

Can you explain this a bit more? I've been using the CLI python.exe on
Windows, Mac, and Linux for years and I don't know what you're talking
about.
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Re: [Python-Dev] VC++ 2008 Express Edition now locked away?

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 10:55 AM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
 Is there any plan for future Python versions to use a free compiler on
 Windows? That would eliminate this issue, but presumably would create
 others.

No plan, although there are at times patches/issues floating around to
add some level of support for MinGW (or something like it) in addition
to Microsoft's compiler.
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[Python-Dev] Introducing Electronic Contributor Agreements

[Brian Curtin]

The full announcement is at
http://blog.python.org/2013/03/introducing-electronic-contributor.html,
but a summary follows.

We've now moved to an electronic Contributor License Agreement form at
http://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ which will hopefully
ease the signing and sending of forms for our potential contributors.
The form shows the required fields whether you're signing as an
individual or a representative of an organization, and removes the
need to print, scan, fax, etc.

When a new contributor fills in the form, they are emailed a copy of
the form and asked to confirm the email address that they used (and
received that copy at). Upon confirming, the signed form is sent to
the PSF Administrator and filed away.

The signature can either be generated from your typed name, or you can
draw or upload your actual written signature if you choose.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Introducing Electronic Contributor Agreements

[Brian Curtin]

On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 11:02 AM, Skip Montanaro s...@pobox.com wrote:


 On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 10:30 AM, Brian Curtin br...@python.org wrote:

 The full announcement is at
 http://blog.python.org/2013/03/introducing-electronic-contributor.html,
 but a summary follows.
 ...


 Brian,

 Do you want old-timers like me who have a wet-signed fax gathering dust in a
 box at PSF World Headquarters to execute the electronic contributor
 agreement?  While not strictly necessary, I suspect it might be nice for you
 to have all agreements in a common form.

I'll check on that, but I don't think it's necessary since the
gathered data is no different.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python Language Summit at PyCon: Agenda

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Michael Foord
mich...@voidspace.org.uk wrote:
 Hello all,

 PyCon, and the Python Language Summit, is nearly upon us. We have a good 
 number of people confirmed to attend. If you are intending to come to the 
 language summit but haven't let me know please do so.

 The agenda of topics for discussion so far includes the following:

 * A report on pypy status - Maciej and Armin
 * Jython and IronPython status reports - Dino / Frank
 * Packaging (Doug Hellmann and Monty Taylor at least)
 * Cleaning up interpreter initialisation (both in hopes of finding areas
   to rationalise and hence speed things up, as well as making things
   more embedding friendly). Nick Coghlan
 * Adding new async capabilities to the standard library (Guido)
 * cffi and the standard library - Maciej
 * flufl.enum and the standard library - Barry Warsaw
 * The argument clinic - Larry Hastings

 If you have other items you'd like to discuss please let me know and I can 
 add them to the agenda.

I'll take detailed notes again this year. Within a few days of the end
of the conference I'll post a write-up to blog.python.org and this
list to keep everyone informed.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Built with VS2012 Express for desktop

[Brian Curtin]

On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 12:37 PM, rahul garg rahulg...@live.ca wrote:
 Hi.

 I downloaded Python 3.3 source, opened up the solution in VS2012 Express for
 Desktop and built the python subproject using Release and x64
 configurations.  I now have a python.exe in the PCBuild/amd64 subfolder
 that appears to be working as far as i can see.

 I have a few questions:
 a) Is there a test suite that I can run to verify that the build is working
 fine?

Last I checked there are some issues, but most of the tests should
pass. You would run PCBuild\python.exe -m test from the top level of
your checkout to see this. It's also covered at
http://docs.python.org/devguide/

 b) I now intend to build some extensions (such as NumPy). Not sure if this
 is the right list, but would I need to modify something in distutils to get
 it working with VS2012?

Yes. You'll probably need to point distutils to the correct batch file
that sets up a VS2012 build environment.
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Re: [Python-Dev] My CLA

[Brian Curtin]

On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Oleg Broytman p...@phdru.name wrote:
 On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 09:18:58PM +0300, anatoly techtonik 
 techto...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Oleg Broytman p...@phdru.name wrote:

  On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 03:49:39PM +0300, anatoly techtonik 
  techto...@gmail.com wrote:
   Python Contributor Agreement
   
   I allow PSF to release all my code that I submitted to
   it, under any open source license.
 
 Good intention but wrong way of expressing it. Please do it properly --
  via a signed paper. You can send it by snail mail, or you can scan it
  and send by email.

 What's wrong with it? Is the text not clear? Or there is a problem to
 threat email as a document?

Yes, email is not a legally recognized document. Electronic signature
 *could* make it legally recognizable but it very much depends on the
 organization where you send email to and on the certificate you use to
 sign mail.
Contact PSF for details. I doubt python-dev is a proper list to
 discuss PSF-related legal issues.

There are no further details. Either the proper document is signed or it isn't.

Hopefully this is the end of the discussion.

Brian Curtin
Director
Python Software Foundation
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[Python-Dev] PyCon Tickets Almost Sold Out

[Brian Curtin]

Since the Language Summit is held at PyCon I think this counts as on-topic...

If you're interested in going to the conference, there are under 50
tickets remaining: https://us.pycon.org/2013/registration/
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Re: [Python-Dev] BDFL delegation for PEP 426 (PyPI metadata 1.3)

[Brian Curtin]

On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Simon Cross
hodgestar+python...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Daniel Holth dho...@gmail.com wrote:
 Bento is the only available packaging tool to heap praise onto and it is
 impressive.

 If Bento is cool, is there some way we can help it gain more traction
 in the Python ecosystem? Not necessarily by incorporating it into
 stdlib, but perhaps by officially sanctioning it in other ways
 (documentation, PyPI, perhaps getting some helpful hooks / tweaks to
 Python itself)?

 I don't know the answer to these questions, but if there is a good
 solution out there, it would be cool to throw our community weight
 behind it.

I don't think we, as in python-dev, should do this. If people want to
start telling others to use bento on their own, that's fine. For the
core team to get behind it would probably require a lot of work to
safely stamp it as the new way...that we don't actually have anything
to do with

If python-dev officially says hey, use bento, then it has all sorts
of problems and ends up dying in 6 months, we will look like idiots.
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[Python-Dev] FYI - wiki.python.org compromised

[Brian Curtin]

On December 28th, an unknown attacker used a previously unknown remote
code exploit on http://wiki.python.org/. The attacker was able to get
shell access as the moin user, but no other services were affected.

Some time later, the attacker deleted all files owned by the moin
user, including all instance data for both the Python and Jython
wikis. The attack also had full access to all MoinMoin user data on
all wikis. In light of this, the Python Software Foundation encourages
all wiki users to change their password on other sites if the same one
is in use elsewhere. We apologize for the inconvenience and will post
further news as we bring the new and improved wiki.python.org online.

If you have any questions about this incident please contact
jnol...@python.org. Thank you for your patience.
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Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Fix #14470. Remove w9xpopen per PEP 11.

[Brian Curtin]

On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 2:36 AM, Andrew Svetlov
andrew.svet...@gmail.com wrote:
 You missed artifacts in ./PC/VC6 ./PC/VS7.1 ./PC/VS8.0 ./PC/VS9.0

Fixed in http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/deee9f0a4b98

Also reported http://bugs.python.org/issue16769 about removing some
those directories because they are pretty much useless.
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 3145 (With Contents)

[Brian Curtin]

On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 7:42 AM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote:
 What should I do in case Eric lost interest after his GSoC project for PSF
 appeared as useless for python-dev community? Should I rewrite the proposal
 from scratch?

Before you attempt that, start by trying to have a better attitude
towards people's contributions around here.
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[Python-Dev] PandaBoard, Raspberry Pi coming to Buildbot fleet

[Brian Curtin]

Last week in Raymond's dictionary thread, the topic of ARM came up,
along with the relative lack of build slave coverage. Today Trent
Nelson received the PandaBoard purchased by the PSF, and a Raspberry
Pi should be coming shortly as well.

http://blog.python.org/2012/12/pandaboard-raspberry-pi-coming-to.html

Thanks to the PSF for purchasing and thanks to Trent for offering to
host them in Snakebite!
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Re: [Python-Dev] Draft PEP for time zone support.

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote:
 General comments:


 It seems like the consensus is moving towards making sure there always is a
 database available. If this means including it in the standard Python
 distribution as well, or only on Windows, I don't know, opinions on that are
 welcome.

 The steps to look for a database would then change to:

   1. The path specified, if not None.

   2. The module for timezone overrides.

   3. The OS database.

   4. The database included in Python.

 We need to determine if a warning should be raised in case of 4 or not, as
 well as the name for the override module. I think the word override here is
 possibly unclear, I'd prefer something like timezone-update or similar.

 I'm personally a bit sceptical to writing a special updater/installer just
 for this. I don't want to have a special unique way to install this package.

 As it comes to OS packages, Christian Heimes pointed out that most Windows
 installations today has Java installed, and kept updated, and it has a
 zoneinfo database. We could consider using that on Windows as well, although
 it admittedly feels quite icky.

Depending on Java being installed or even installing it alongside
Python would be a funny April Fools prank. This can't happen.

I don't think it's all that bad to include a small script on Windows
which runs every few days to check PyPI, then present an option to
update the info. This is what Java itself is doing anyway.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Draft PEP for time zone support.

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 6:10 PM, MRAB pyt...@mrabarnett.plus.com wrote:
 On 2012-12-12 23:33, Lennart Regebro wrote:

 On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 12:23 AM, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote:

 As a Windows user, I would like there to be one tz data file used by all
 Python versions on my machine, including ones included with other apps.


 That would be nice, but where would that be installed? There is no
 standard location for zoneinfo files. And do we really want to install
 python-specific files outside the Python tree?

 Python version x.y is installed into, say, C:\Pythonxy, so perhaps a
 good place would be, say, C:\Python.

C:\ProgramData\Python
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Re: [Python-Dev] Draft PEP for time zone support.

[Brian Curtin]

On Dec 12, 2012 7:24 PM, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote:

 On 12/12/2012 7:27 PM, Brian Curtin wrote:

 On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 6:10 PM, MRAB pyt...@mrabarnett.plus.com wrote:

 On 2012-12-12 23:33, Lennart Regebro wrote:


 On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 12:23 AM, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote:


 As a Windows user, I would like there to be one tz data file used by
all
 Python versions on my machine, including ones included with other
apps.



 That would be nice, but where would that be installed? There is no
 standard location for zoneinfo files. And do we really want to install
 python-specific files outside the Python tree?


 There is no 'Python tree' on windows. Rather, there is a separate tree
for each version, located where the user directs.

 Windows used to have a %APPDATA% directory variable. Not sure about Win
7, let alone 8. Martin and others should know better.

 Or ask the user where to put it. I know where I would choose, and it
would not be on my C drive. Un-installers would not delete (unless a
reference count were kept and were decremented to 0).


 Python version x.y is installed into, say, C:\Pythonxy, so perhaps a
 good place would be, say, C:\Python.


 C:\ProgramData\Python


 Making a new top-level directory without asking is obnoxious.

See
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9518890/what-is-the-significance-programdata-in-windows
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Re: [Python-Dev] Draft PEP for time zone support.

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Janzert janz...@janzert.com wrote:
 On 12/12/2012 8:43 PM, Glenn Linderman wrote:

 On 12/12/2012 5:36 PM, Brian Curtin wrote:


  C:\ProgramData\Python


^ That.  Is not the path that the link below is talking
 about, though.


 It actually does; it is rather confusing though. :/ It's referring to
 KNOWNFOLDERID constant FOLDERID_ProgramData. The actual on disk location for
 this has changed over windows versions. As noted below in the SO link given:

 Note that this documentation refers to the typical path as per older
 versions of Windows. In modern versions of Windows it is located in
 %SystemDrive%\ProgramData.

Correct.

Anyway, on with the actual timezone stuff...
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Re: [Python-Dev] Draft PEP for time zone support.

[Brian Curtin]

On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 9:48 AM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 11 December 2012 15:39, Dirkjan Ochtman dirk...@ochtman.nl wrote:
 Should the windows installer include the data package?
 --

 It has been suggested that the Windows installer should include the data
 package. This would mean that an explicit installation no longer would be
 needed on Windows. On the other hand, that would mean that many using 
 Windows
 would not be aware that the database quickly becomes outdated and would not
 keep it updated.

 I still submit that it's pretty much just as easy to forget to update
 the database whether it's been installed by hand zero or one times, so
 I don't find your argument convincing. I don't mind the result much,
 though.

 I agree. Also, in corporate or similar environments where each
 individual package installation must be approved, having at least some
 timezone data in the base install ensures that all Python code can
 assume the *existence* of timezone support (if not necessarily the
 accuracy of that data).

 If the base Windows installer does not include timezone data, then the
 documentation should note this and offer advice on how to write code
 that degrades gracefully without timezones.

 If the base installer *does* include timezone data, of course, there
 should be a documented mechanism for updating it (we don't want magic
 like the old xml package used, I assume).

I think we should try to get the data into the base installer and then
include a small updater, perhaps putting it in a Windows scheduled
task and checking PyPI periodically for newer versions. If a new one
comes up, prompt if the user wants it.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Is is worth disentangling distutils?

[Brian Curtin]

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Antonio Cavallo
a.cava...@cavallinux.eu wrote:
 I'm not into the py3 at all so I wonder how possibly it could fit/collide
 into the big plan.

 Or I'll be wasting my time?

If you're not doing it on Python 3 then you are wasting your time.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Proposing Argument Clinic, a new way of specifying arguments to builtins for CPython

[Brian Curtin]

On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 3:54 PM, Brett Cannon br...@python.org wrote:
 But going through python-ideas for this I think is a bit much.

It would never end.

I think an issue on roundup could work just fine.
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Re: [Python-Dev] New Contributor Experience in Python and other FOSS Communities - A Survey

[Brian Curtin]

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:01 AM, Brian Curtin br...@python.org wrote:
 Hi all,

 Along with a number of other free and open communities, Python is
 being included in a survey of new contributors since January 2010. The
 survey is being done by Kevin Carillo, a PhD student at Victoria
 University of Wellington who is studying various approaches that
 projects use to gain and work with new contributors.

 If you have written patches, reviewed issues, or done anything to
 contribute to the development of Python and you started this after
 January 2010, I hope you can spare around 20 minutes to complete this
 survey: https://limesurvey.sim.vuw.ac.nz/index.php?sid=65151lang=en

 There's a longer blog post up at
 http://blog.python.org/2012/11/new-contributor-experience-in-python.html
 if you would like a bit more information.

 On behalf of Kevin Carillo, I thank you for your time and
 consideration of this survey.

 Brian Curtin

Just a quick reminder - Kevin could really use the help if any of you
recent newcomers can spare the time. I took the survey myself since I
became a committer right after the survey range begins, and I think it
took me 15 minutes.
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[Python-Dev] New Contributor Experience in Python and other FOSS Communities - A Survey

[Brian Curtin]

Hi all,

Along with a number of other free and open communities, Python is
being included in a survey of new contributors since January 2010. The
survey is being done by Kevin Carillo, a PhD student at Victoria
University of Wellington who is studying various approaches that
projects use to gain and work with new contributors.

If you have written patches, reviewed issues, or done anything to
contribute to the development of Python and you started this after
January 2010, I hope you can spare around 20 minutes to complete this
survey: https://limesurvey.sim.vuw.ac.nz/index.php?sid=65151lang=en

There's a longer blog post up at
http://blog.python.org/2012/11/new-contributor-experience-in-python.html
if you would like a bit more information.

On behalf of Kevin Carillo, I thank you for your time and
consideration of this survey.

Brian Curtin
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