[Python-Dev] Re: Moving to Discourse

[Baptiste Carvello]

Hello,

I'm afraid you misundertood my message. I'm not discussing the choice of
Discourse as a communication medium (which would be futile after the
decision has been made), just the thematic perimeter that would make up
an equivalent of Python-dev (for those hundreds of us who happened to
like it).

Le 22/09/2022 à 19:58, Brett Cannon a écrit :
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 12:41 AM Baptiste Carvello
>  > wrote:
> Le 21/09/2022 à 13:14, Petr Viktorin a écrit :

> > But I don't think the goal is to make sure all people using the mailing
> > list get the same set of posts. Different people have different 
> interests.

> That's exaggerated: often many people share common interests, and thus
> want to follow a common set of discussions.

> ... which is expected to take place on Discourse.
> [...]

"Discourse", without further qualification, is a discussion medium, not
a discussion forum as I mean it ("a group of people sharing common
interests…").

The Python discourse instance is the equivalent of Python-list +
Python-dev + Ideas + Typing + Packaging + whatever else. Nobody is
expected to read all of that, are they? Thus it makes sense to be
interested in a sensible subset of it.

> This is what makes up a
> discussion forum. Python-dev has served well its hundreds (or is it
> thousands) of users over all those years, so its perimeter must be
> sensible enough.

> But the mailing list has also not served others well either
> [...], so I don't think it "must be sensible enough" that
> what python-dev does is always best/right/sensible.
> [...]

My words "sensible enough" only qualified the *thematic perimeter* of
Python-dev: design discussions including PEPs, relation to other
important projects in the community, sometimes general programming
philosophy.

This perimeter is a product of experience. There's a reason Python-dev
was split from Python-list, then Ideas from Python-dev etc. Let history
inform us.

In conclusion, the only thing I'm looking for is a fully working way to
access this information perimeter from a convenient mail-like interface.
Various solutions have been handwaved, but none is ready for prime time.


> In the meantime, I suppose Discourse must have some instance
> configuration knobs, and it would make sense that the length of the RSS
> files can be changed there (being a very arbitrary limit). The PSF could
> then choose a more appropriate length just for their own instance (the
> current 25-post limit represents less than 24 hours; a few days instead
> would be nice).
> 
> 
> If you can find the setting then we can look at tweaking it, but a quick
> glance at the admin interface didn't turn up anything obvious.

Sorry to say, but this is yet another sign that Discourse is not mature
enough for a community as big as Python. This set-in-stone limit is
obviously devised for a very small community.

Cheers,
Baptiste
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[Python-Dev] Re: Moving to Discourse

[Brett Cannon]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 12:41 AM Baptiste Carvello <
devel2...@baptiste-carvello.net> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Le 21/09/2022 à 13:14, Petr Viktorin a écrit :
> > On 21. 09. 22 10:17, Baptiste Carvello wrote:
> >>
> >> * mailing-list mode: there needs to be a *standardized* set of filters
> >> to access Core-Dev + PEPs (and only that).
> >> [...]
>
> > Do you have a proposal we could standardize?
> > Open a PR on the devguide. You shouldn't need an official hat-wearer
> > around, unless there's a disagreement.
>
> I believe indeed that the devguide should provide complete guidance
> towards getting a python-dev equivalent using mailing-list mode, to
> avoid many users having to reinvent the wheel. I don't have enough
> experience to give such advice myself (yet).
>
> > But I don't think the goal is to make sure all people using the mailing
> > list get the same set of posts. Different people have different
> interests.
>
> That's exaggerated: often many people share common interests, and thus
> want to follow a common set of discussions.


... which is expected to take place on Discourse. A key point here is we
are trying to consolidate after having this split approach for a few years
that people found annoying. We also acknowledge we can't stop people from
talking wherever they want on the internet.


> This is what makes up a
> discussion forum. Python-dev has served well its hundreds (or is it
> thousands) of users over all those years, so its perimeter must be
> sensible enough.
>

But the mailing list has also not served others well either (and people
have explicitly told us the mailing list didn't serve them, so this isn't a
hypothesis), so I don't think it "must be sensible enough" that what
python-dev does is always best/right/sensible. There is no perfect
solution, hence why we had this lengthy discussion to begin with.


>
> > Only mirroring/archiving Core-Dev + PEPs also seems pretty arbitrary.
>
> According to the devguide, "these are the Discourse equivalents to the
> python-dev mailing list". I believe many people want just that. This is
> also the perimeter that makes most sense for long term external
> archival, as it is likely to contain all major design discussions.
>
> >> * RSS: the shortcomings I described in my august post [2] are still
> >> there. At the very least, the PSF needs to make sure that the age /
> >> length limits of the RSS files (both core-dev.rss and posts.rss) are
> >> *much* increased.
>
> > I'm not sure what the PSF can do here -- this sounds like it should be a
> > feature request to Discourse.
>
> Discourse could indeed make their RSS interface much friendlier. Alas,
> as I say in my previous message, a very useful feature request
> (per-category post feeds) has been lingering for 6 years. So I won't
> hold my breath.
>
> In the meantime, I suppose Discourse must have some instance
> configuration knobs, and it would make sense that the length of the RSS
> files can be changed there (being a very arbitrary limit). The PSF could
> then choose a more appropriate length just for their own instance (the
> current 25-post limit represents less than 24 hours; a few days instead
> would be nice).
>

If you can find the setting then we can look at tweaking it, but a quick
glance at the admin interface didn't turn up anything obvious.

-Brett


>
> > I guess the mailing list mode is a better option if you don't want to
> > miss anything. Is it lacking something that RSS provides, besides easier
> > filtering?
>
> There is room between not missing anything and having less than 24 hours
> of history available.
>
> Since you asked (but not a major point): RSS is accessible without
> registering an account.
>
> Cheers,
> Baptiste
>
> >> [2]
> >>
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/UZJ27G57F7QJJ2LYBDGZQ5BIXLH7OXWJ/
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[Python-Dev] Re: Moving to Discourse

[Baptiste Carvello]

Hello,

Le 21/09/2022 à 13:14, Petr Viktorin a écrit :
> On 21. 09. 22 10:17, Baptiste Carvello wrote:
>>
>> * mailing-list mode: there needs to be a *standardized* set of filters
>> to access Core-Dev + PEPs (and only that).
>> [...]

> Do you have a proposal we could standardize?
> Open a PR on the devguide. You shouldn't need an official hat-wearer
> around, unless there's a disagreement.

I believe indeed that the devguide should provide complete guidance
towards getting a python-dev equivalent using mailing-list mode, to
avoid many users having to reinvent the wheel. I don't have enough
experience to give such advice myself (yet).

> But I don't think the goal is to make sure all people using the mailing
> list get the same set of posts. Different people have different interests.

That's exaggerated: often many people share common interests, and thus
want to follow a common set of discussions. This is what makes up a
discussion forum. Python-dev has served well its hundreds (or is it
thousands) of users over all those years, so its perimeter must be
sensible enough.

> Only mirroring/archiving Core-Dev + PEPs also seems pretty arbitrary.

According to the devguide, "these are the Discourse equivalents to the
python-dev mailing list". I believe many people want just that. This is
also the perimeter that makes most sense for long term external
archival, as it is likely to contain all major design discussions.

>> * RSS: the shortcomings I described in my august post [2] are still
>> there. At the very least, the PSF needs to make sure that the age /
>> length limits of the RSS files (both core-dev.rss and posts.rss) are
>> *much* increased.

> I'm not sure what the PSF can do here -- this sounds like it should be a
> feature request to Discourse.

Discourse could indeed make their RSS interface much friendlier. Alas,
as I say in my previous message, a very useful feature request
(per-category post feeds) has been lingering for 6 years. So I won't
hold my breath.

In the meantime, I suppose Discourse must have some instance
configuration knobs, and it would make sense that the length of the RSS
files can be changed there (being a very arbitrary limit). The PSF could
then choose a more appropriate length just for their own instance (the
current 25-post limit represents less than 24 hours; a few days instead
would be nice).

> I guess the mailing list mode is a better option if you don't want to
> miss anything. Is it lacking something that RSS provides, besides easier
> filtering?

There is room between not missing anything and having less than 24 hours
of history available.

Since you asked (but not a major point): RSS is accessible without
registering an account.

Cheers,
Baptiste

>> [2]
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/UZJ27G57F7QJJ2LYBDGZQ5BIXLH7OXWJ/
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[Python-Dev] Re: Moving to Discourse

[Petr Viktorin]

On 21. 09. 22 10:17, Baptiste Carvello wrote:

Hello,

good to see that someone in the Steering Council still reads here, as
some of the actions necessary to make either mailing-list mode or RSS a
viable alternative [1] need an official "hat":

* mailing-list mode: there needs to be a *standardized* set of filters
to access Core-Dev + PEPs (and only that). That's the only way to make
sure all people using mailing-list mode get the same set of posts.
Giving this set of filters an official status would allow external
mirroring and archiving (relying solely on discourse.org for archiving
is imprudent).


Do you have a proposal we could standardize?
Open a PR on the devguide. You shouldn't need an official hat-wearer 
around, unless there's a disagreement.


But I don't think the goal is to make sure all people using the mailing 
list get the same set of posts. Different people have different interests.

Only mirroring/archiving Core-Dev + PEPs also seems pretty arbitrary.


* RSS: the shortcomings I described in my august post [2] are still
there. At the very least, the PSF needs to make sure that the age /
length limits of the RSS files (both core-dev.rss and posts.rss) are
*much* increased.


I'm not sure what the PSF can do here -- this sounds like it should be a 
feature request to Discourse.
I guess the mailing list mode is a better option if you don't want to 
miss anything. Is it lacking something that RSS provides, besides easier 
filtering?




Cheers,
Baptiste

[1] hopefully "we don't see anything that would block Python
development" doesn't mean alternatives to the (slow and annoying) web
interface are abandoned.

[2]
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/UZJ27G57F7QJJ2LYBDGZQ5BIXLH7OXWJ/

  Viktorin a écrit :

As mentioned previously [0], the Steering Council decided to switch from
python-dev to Discourse (discuss.python.org).
We're aware that Discourse is not perfect. The previous mail thread [0]
lists various shortcomings, as well as some workarounds. However, we
don't see anything that would block Python development.

Practically, the switch means that:
- New PEPs should be announced in the PEPs category on Discourse (rather
than on this list), and
- The Devguide will list Discourse, rather than mailing lists, as the
primary communication channel.

Note that you can have development-related discussions anywhere, as long
as you (eventually) include all relevant people. You're welcome to
continue using python-dev and other mailing lists, IRC, in-person
sprints, etc. But for PEP-level changes, we believe python-dev no longer
reaches the proper audience.

For the related docs changes, see [peps-2775] and [devguide-945]. Note
that this is documentation, not law – if something is unclear or doesn't
make sense, please ask for clarification or propose edits.

[0]:
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/VHFLDK43DSSLHACT67X4QA3UZU73WYYJ/

[peps-2775]: https://github.com/python/peps/pull/2775
[devguide-945]: https://github.com/python/devguide/pull/945


— Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council

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[Python-Dev] Re: Moving to Discourse

[Baptiste Carvello]

Hello,

good to see that someone in the Steering Council still reads here, as
some of the actions necessary to make either mailing-list mode or RSS a
viable alternative [1] need an official "hat":

* mailing-list mode: there needs to be a *standardized* set of filters
to access Core-Dev + PEPs (and only that). That's the only way to make
sure all people using mailing-list mode get the same set of posts.
Giving this set of filters an official status would allow external
mirroring and archiving (relying solely on discourse.org for archiving
is imprudent).

* RSS: the shortcomings I described in my august post [2] are still
there. At the very least, the PSF needs to make sure that the age /
length limits of the RSS files (both core-dev.rss and posts.rss) are
*much* increased.

Cheers,
Baptiste

[1] hopefully "we don't see anything that would block Python
development" doesn't mean alternatives to the (slow and annoying) web
interface are abandoned.

[2]
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/UZJ27G57F7QJJ2LYBDGZQ5BIXLH7OXWJ/

 Viktorin a écrit :
> As mentioned previously [0], the Steering Council decided to switch from
> python-dev to Discourse (discuss.python.org).
> We're aware that Discourse is not perfect. The previous mail thread [0]
> lists various shortcomings, as well as some workarounds. However, we
> don't see anything that would block Python development.
> 
> Practically, the switch means that:
> - New PEPs should be announced in the PEPs category on Discourse (rather
> than on this list), and
> - The Devguide will list Discourse, rather than mailing lists, as the
> primary communication channel.
> 
> Note that you can have development-related discussions anywhere, as long
> as you (eventually) include all relevant people. You're welcome to
> continue using python-dev and other mailing lists, IRC, in-person
> sprints, etc. But for PEP-level changes, we believe python-dev no longer
> reaches the proper audience.
> 
> For the related docs changes, see [peps-2775] and [devguide-945]. Note
> that this is documentation, not law – if something is unclear or doesn't
> make sense, please ask for clarification or propose edits.
> 
> [0]:
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/VHFLDK43DSSLHACT67X4QA3UZU73WYYJ/
> 
> [peps-2775]: https://github.com/python/peps/pull/2775
> [devguide-945]: https://github.com/python/devguide/pull/945
> 
> 
> — Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council
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[Python-Dev] Re: Moving to Discourse

[Barry Warsaw]

On Sep 20, 2022, at 02:47, Petr Viktorin  wrote:
> 
> Note that you can have development-related discussions anywhere, as long as 
> you (eventually) include all relevant people. You're welcome to continue 
> using python-dev and other mailing lists, IRC, in-person sprints, etc. But 
> for PEP-level changes, we believe python-dev no longer reaches the proper 
> audience.

Please also make sure your PEP’s Discussions-To header points to the right 
forum.

https://peps.python.org/pep-0001/#discussing-a-pep

Cheers,
-Barry



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