Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Marcel Kilgus via Ql-Users]

Dave Park via Ql-Users wrote:
> Marcel, would you be willing to share your modifications for QL-SD2?

Sure, I can be bribed :-P Also, it's GPLed anyway... but I want to
make some more tests, preferably with the original hardware first.

Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Marcel Kilgus via Ql-Users]

pgraf--- via Ql-Users wrote:
>> Well, I said I'd do it and apparently I did it:
>> 
>> https://www.kilgus.net/2018/02/02/clonetastic-ql-sd-clone-working-with-goldcard-clone/
> What surprises me is this: "With the original Verilog code my clone 
> didn't work at all, so it's definitely not just the different chip."
>
> With a normal GC, the original QL-SD worked relatively well, 
> compared to the SGC.

I've heard, but bot on my system. There was one driver version where
it briefly managed to display halve a directory before it turning into
scrambled screen, but that was about it.

> On some GC systems it was even fully stable hardware-wise. So if we
> assume that the electrical characteristics of the XC9572 play a
> minor role, why did it not work _at_all_?
>
> A significant difference between Original GC and Tetroid?

Well, the Tetroid-Card has the 30ns displacement between the adress
bus changing and ROMOE being cleared. I think it's entirely plausible
that other GoldCards might have a different timing, making the "it
works or not" a matter of pure probability.

As Tobias wrote "I have mixed experiences with GoldCards - One doesn't
work at all, the other one (at least in one specific QL) rather well
for days together with a QL-SD. But not well enough to go through the
nuisance of destroyed file system every other week or so." You might
get lucky for a while, especially if timing is very tight, but then
one day you might not.

I've also heard that for some people it only works when the driver is
loaded into RAM, which reduces the ROM accesses and once again reduced
the probability for a spurious actions.

Mind you I don't consider this a bug in QL-SD, it's more a bug in GC
and I'm trying to create a stable workaround. It'd be very interesting
how an SGC handles this.

Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Dave Park via Ql-Users]

Marcel, would you be willing to share your modifications for QL-SD2?

Dave

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 10:51 AM, pgraf--- via Ql-Users <
ql-users@lists.q-v-d.com> wrote:

> On 2 Feb 2018 at 16:25, Marcel Kilgus via Ql-Users wrote:
>
> > Well, I said I'd do it and apparently I did it:
> >
> > https://www.kilgus.net/2018/02/02/clonetastic-ql-sd-clone-
> working-with-goldcard-clone/
>
> What surprises me is this: "With the original Verilog code my clone
> didn't work at all, so it's definitely not just the different chip."
>
> With a normal GC, the original QL-SD worked relatively well,
> compared to the SGC. On some GC systems it was even fully stable
> hardware-wise. So if we assume that the electrical characteristics
> of the XC9572 play a minor role, why did it not work _at_all_?
>
> A significant difference between Original GC and Tetroid?
>
> Peter
>
> ___
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>



-- 
Dave Park
d...@sinclairql.com
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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[pgraf--- via Ql-Users]

On 2 Feb 2018 at 16:25, Marcel Kilgus via Ql-Users wrote:

> Well, I said I'd do it and apparently I did it:
> 
> https://www.kilgus.net/2018/02/02/clonetastic-ql-sd-clone-working-with-goldcard-clone/

What surprises me is this: "With the original Verilog code my clone 
didn't work at all, so it's definitely not just the different chip."

With a normal GC, the original QL-SD worked relatively well, 
compared to the SGC. On some GC systems it was even fully stable 
hardware-wise. So if we assume that the electrical characteristics 
of the XC9572 play a minor role, why did it not work _at_all_?

A significant difference between Original GC and Tetroid?

Peter

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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Marcel Kilgus via Ql-Users]

Marcel Kilgus via Ql-Users wrote:
> I've already started putting together a clone using an Xilinx
> XC9572XL, which I have lying around. The Verilog file compiled from
> the get-go, I just had to remove the additional SS lines because of
> Pin restrictions in the small chip on my eval board. The long lines to
> the board might not exactly help, though... might take a while, but I
> will try to make a GoldCard compatible QL-SD one way or another, now
> that I have your release to base it on :-)

Well, I said I'd do it and apparently I did it:

https://www.kilgus.net/2018/02/02/clonetastic-ql-sd-clone-working-with-goldcard-clone/

Now I'm looking forward to test the fix on the original hardware, as
the clone is still a bit unwieldly ;-)

Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[pgraf--- via Ql-Users]

On 23 Jan 2018 at 9:21, Graeme Gregory via Ql-Users wrote:

> > I've already started putting together a clone using an Xilinx
> > XC9572XL, which I have lying around. The Verilog file compiled from
> > the get-go, I just had to remove the additional SS lines because of
> > Pin restrictions in the small chip on my eval board. The long lines to
> > the board might not exactly help, though... might take a while, but I
> > will try to make a GoldCard compatible QL-SD one way or another, now
> > that I have your release to base it on :-)
> > 
> Doesnt gold card have a parralell port?
> 
> That should be enough IO pins to connect an SD card which just needs SPI.

I already designed an SD card device for SGC, Q40, Q60 parallel port 
many years ago. It even draws enough supply power by some tricks, no 
need for AC adaptor.

Due to the slow speed I did not release it. IIRC it was like floppy 
on Q40/Q60 and even slower on SGC. SGC data lines are 
unidirectional, allowing only bitbanging. No PAR on GC.

Peter

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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Derek via Ql-Users]

Hi,
There is no parallel port on the Gold Card.
There is a Parallel Port on the Super Gold Card. But it is not bi-directional. 
Only works as a simple printer port. But maybe some output pins could be turned 
into Inputs.
RegardsDerek
 Original message From: Graeme Gregory via Ql-Users 
<ql-users@lists.q-v-d.com> Date: 23/01/2018  09:21  (GMT+00:00) To: 
ql-users@lists.q-v-d.com Cc: Graeme Gregory <gra...@xora.org.uk> Subject: Re: 
[Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver 
> I've already started putting together a clone using an Xilinx
> XC9572XL, which I have lying around. The Verilog file compiled from
> the get-go, I just had to remove the additional SS lines because of
> Pin restrictions in the small chip on my eval board. The long lines to
> the board might not exactly help, though... might take a while, but I
> will try to make a GoldCard compatible QL-SD one way or another, now
> that I have your release to base it on :-)
> 
Doesnt gold card have a parralell port?

That should be enough IO pins to connect an SD card which just needs SPI.

Graeme
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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Wolfgang Lenerz via Ql-Users]

Hi,

> Re-upped! Been watching The Wire? - 

The wire?


> Well, youre certainly keeping us QL junkies happy! ;)

That's an unintended side-effect.


Wolfgang
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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[pjwitte via Ql-Users]

On 23/01/2018 05:48, Wolf via Ql-Users wrote:

> done, re-upped with the keys.

Ah, thats better, thanks :)

Re-upped! Been watching The Wire? - Well, youre certainly keeping us 
QL junkies happy! ;)


Per
BTW, I forgot to add that the driver is for v. 0.82 of the 
interface. If you have v. 0.75, please holler!!


Wolfgang

On 22/01/2018 17:08, pjwitte via Ql-Users wrote:

On 22/01/2018 10:41, Wolfgang Lenerz via Ql-Users wrote:

Nice one, Wolfgang :)

The sources state: include 'DEV1_q68_qlsd_keys', but I cant find 
the file anywhere..


Per

Hi all,

I've released a new driver for QL-SD that uses standard qxl.win 
drives

instead of Qubide ones.

It's for Minerva only, though.

You can download it from www.wlenerz.com/QLSD

Have fun.

Wolfgang
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.



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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Marcel Kilgus via Ql-Users]

Graeme Gregory via Ql-Users wrote:
> Doesnt gold card have a parralell port?
>
> That should be enough IO pins to connect an SD card which just needs SPI.

I think bit-banging would noticably reduce the transfer speed.

Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Graeme Gregory via Ql-Users]

> I've already started putting together a clone using an Xilinx
> XC9572XL, which I have lying around. The Verilog file compiled from
> the get-go, I just had to remove the additional SS lines because of
> Pin restrictions in the small chip on my eval board. The long lines to
> the board might not exactly help, though... might take a while, but I
> will try to make a GoldCard compatible QL-SD one way or another, now
> that I have your release to base it on :-)
> 
Doesnt gold card have a parralell port?

That should be enough IO pins to connect an SD card which just needs SPI.

Graeme
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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Marcel Kilgus via Ql-Users]

Tobias Fröschle via Ql-Users wrote:
> that Schmidt-trigger is already there. Nice little SMD bug under
> the socket that sits in the ROMOEH line. Apparently, it doesn't help.

At this point I'm just glad that my idea was not nonsense but turns
out to be actually implemented in the design :-) And wow, that thing
is small! A digital filter in the CPLD might help then, but that needs
Flip-Flops which are usually not massively available in those kind of
chips...

Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Wolf via Ql-Users]

Hi Per,

done, re-upped with the keys.

BTW, I forgot to add that the driver is for v. 0.82 of the interface. If 
you have v. 0.75, please holler!!


Wolfgang

On 22/01/2018 17:08, pjwitte via Ql-Users wrote:

On 22/01/2018 10:41, Wolfgang Lenerz via Ql-Users wrote:

Nice one, Wolfgang :)

The sources state: include 'DEV1_q68_qlsd_keys', but I cant find the 
file anywhere..


Per

Hi all,

I've released a new driver for QL-SD that uses standard qxl.win drives
instead of Qubide ones.

It's for Minerva only, though.

You can download it from www.wlenerz.com/QLSD

Have fun.

Wolfgang
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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[pgraf--- via Ql-Users]

On 22 Jan 2018 at 15:21, Wolf via Ql-Users wrote:

> > If only we could find another builder/supplier of the SD interface... :-)
> 
> Hopefully one that could work reliably with GC/SGC!

That would be nice. The QL-SD hardware is open source, everyone is 
invited to improve it toward GC/SGC tolerance.

Peter

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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Tobias Fröschle via Ql-Users]

Marcel,

that Schmidt-trigger is already there. Nice little SMD bug under the socket 
that sits in the ROMOEH line. Apparently, it doesn't help.

I have mixed experiences with GoldCards - One doesn't work at all, the other 
one (at least in one specific QL) rather well for days together with a QL-SD. 
But not well enough to go through the nuisance of destroyed file system every 
other week or so.

Tobias

> Am 22.01.2018 um 15:07 schrieb Marcel Kilgus via Ql-Users 
> :
> 
> pgraf--- via Ql-Users wrote:
>> Remark: This new driver can not be expected to resolve the signal
>> quality issue between (Super)GoldCard and QL-SD. This remains a 
>> hardware problem.
> 
> One beta release ALMOST worked with my Gold Card, it could read a
> directory half-way before outputting garbage.
> 
> As I've understood your chip is 3.3V and the lines (or GND) is too
> noisy so that logic level 0 could be interpreted as 1 before the lines
> settle, because the chip samples them faster as older chips would, is
> that about right? Would it help to put a 74-style Schmitt-trigger in
> front of ROMOEH or something like that?
> 
> Marcel
> 
> ___
> QL-Users Mailing List

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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[pgraf--- via Ql-Users]

Marcel Kilgus via Ql-Users wrote:

> As I've understood your chip is 3.3V and the lines (or GND) is too
> noisy so that logic level 0 could be interpreted as 1 before the lines
> settle

Yes this is one of the aspects, but it's not a 3.3V versus 5V issue. 
(The relevant logic levels are the same.)

The rise and fall timings of the SGC (and to a smaller degree GC) 
are too fast for the QL mainboard, which creates too much crosstalk 
and ringing. Even without QL-SD, illegal levels occur and can be 
seen on oscilloscope. The QL itself only works because it's hardware 
is too slow to "see" these illegal levels.

> because the chip samples them faster as older chips would, is
> that about right?

Roughly. A 400 MHz chip inside an ancient 8 MHz design.

> Would it help to put a 74-style Schmitt-trigger in
> front of ROMOEH or something like that?

http://www.dilwyn.me.uk/qlsd/qlsd-hardware-src.zip
-> qlromext-sch.pdf, see U4 ;)

Unfortunately this was not good enough to get the SGC working.

I guess the best solution would be another QL-SD design with an old, 
slow PLD. Second best: Experimenting with serial resitors in all 
lines. A different place (e.g. external ROM port) might also help, 
but it is hard to predict.

Peter

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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[pjwitte via Ql-Users]

On 22/01/2018 10:41, Wolfgang Lenerz via Ql-Users wrote:

Nice one, Wolfgang :)

The sources state: include 'DEV1_q68_qlsd_keys', but I cant find the 
file anywhere..


Per

Hi all,

I've released a new driver for QL-SD that uses standard qxl.win drives
instead of Qubide ones.

It's for Minerva only, though.

You can download it from www.wlenerz.com/QLSD

Have fun.

Wolfgang
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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Wolf via Ql-Users]

Hi,


Does this new driver support QL-SD with two SD cards?


No, not as it is now. I was under the impression that a QL-SD with two 
SD cards practically doesn't exist.

If necessary, I could extend the driver to take care of that.

Wolfgang




On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 8:37 AM, Alain HAOUI via Ql-Users <
ql-users@lists.q-v-d.com> wrote:


Hi all,
Actually I am on the way to achieve a new browser (only browser now) for
all ql platforms and emulators which can deal with qubide or qlwa/qwa
multipartitioned devices or disk raw images, data cdrom or iso 9660 cd
images and qxl.win containers in any device or image.
It needs tk2, PE and should work on any ql platform with ~300kb of free
ram, under qdos or smsq.
For physical cdrom needs qubata driver or TG atapi/cdrom things.
Will be available within a few days.
Regards
Alain Haoui
Envoyé de mon téléphone

De : Graeme Gregory via Ql-Users
Envoyé le :lundi 22 janvier 2018 14:41
À : ql-users@lists.q-v-d.com
Cc : Graeme Gregory
Objet :Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver



On Mon, 22 Jan 2018, at 9:41 AM, Wolfgang Lenerz via Ql-Users wrote:

Hi all,

I've released a new driver for QL-SD that uses standard qxl.win drives
instead of Qubide ones.

It's for Minerva only, though.

You can download it from www.wlenerz.com/QLSD


And the next trick make qubide do the same :-D

Graeme
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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Dave Park via Ql-Users]

Does this new driver support QL-SD with two SD cards?

On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 8:37 AM, Alain HAOUI via Ql-Users <
ql-users@lists.q-v-d.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
> Actually I am on the way to achieve a new browser (only browser now) for
> all ql platforms and emulators which can deal with qubide or qlwa/qwa
> multipartitioned devices or disk raw images, data cdrom or iso 9660 cd
> images and qxl.win containers in any device or image.
> It needs tk2, PE and should work on any ql platform with ~300kb of free
> ram, under qdos or smsq.
> For physical cdrom needs qubata driver or TG atapi/cdrom things.
> Will be available within a few days.
> Regards
> Alain Haoui
> Envoyé de mon téléphone
>
> De : Graeme Gregory via Ql-Users
> Envoyé le :lundi 22 janvier 2018 14:41
> À : ql-users@lists.q-v-d.com
> Cc : Graeme Gregory
> Objet :Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver
>
>
>
> On Mon, 22 Jan 2018, at 9:41 AM, Wolfgang Lenerz via Ql-Users wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I've released a new driver for QL-SD that uses standard qxl.win drives
> > instead of Qubide ones.
> >
> > It's for Minerva only, though.
> >
> > You can download it from www.wlenerz.com/QLSD
> >
> And the next trick make qubide do the same :-D
>
> Graeme
> ___
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>
> ___
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-- 
Dave Park
d...@sinclairql.com
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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Alain HAOUI via Ql-Users]

Hi all,
Actually I am on the way to achieve a new browser (only browser now) for all ql 
platforms and emulators which can deal with qubide or qlwa/qwa multipartitioned 
devices or disk raw images, data cdrom or iso 9660 cd images and qxl.win 
containers in any device or image.
It needs tk2, PE and should work on any ql platform with ~300kb of free ram, 
under qdos or smsq.
For physical cdrom needs qubata driver or TG atapi/cdrom things.
Will be available within a few days.
Regards
Alain Haoui
Envoyé de mon téléphone

De : Graeme Gregory via Ql-Users
Envoyé le :lundi 22 janvier 2018 14:41
À : ql-users@lists.q-v-d.com
Cc : Graeme Gregory
Objet :Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver



On Mon, 22 Jan 2018, at 9:41 AM, Wolfgang Lenerz via Ql-Users wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I've released a new driver for QL-SD that uses standard qxl.win drives
> instead of Qubide ones.
> 
> It's for Minerva only, though.
> 
> You can download it from www.wlenerz.com/QLSD
> 
And the next trick make qubide do the same :-D

Graeme
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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Marcel Kilgus via Ql-Users]

pgraf--- via Ql-Users wrote:
> Remark: This new driver can not be expected to resolve the signal
> quality issue between (Super)GoldCard and QL-SD. This remains a 
> hardware problem.

One beta release ALMOST worked with my Gold Card, it could read a
directory half-way before outputting garbage.

As I've understood your chip is 3.3V and the lines (or GND) is too
noisy so that logic level 0 could be interpreted as 1 before the lines
settle, because the chip samples them faster as older chips would, is
that about right? Would it help to put a 74-style Schmitt-trigger in
front of ROMOEH or something like that?

Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Marcel Kilgus via Ql-Users]

Martyn Hill via Ql-Users wrote:
> Do we have any understanding of the QL (Minerva) memory utilisation of
> WIN as compared to SDC? I'm thinking about the need with the SDC driver
> to keep container file-size small in order not to consume QL memory too
> aggressively for its (equivalent of) slave-blocks. E.g. for an 
> unexpanded QL of 128k, about 1.5MB container size seems to be the limit
> before you take too much memory to run the machine effectively.

Well, both drivers need to keep the FAT in memory, so the bigger the
container, the more memory you need for that (my 100MB file needs
about 100kb, so you probably want to stay smaller ;). More than 1.5MB
should be possible, though. Slave blocks probably don't really matter
IMHO.

Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Martyn Hill via Ql-Users]

Hi WL

This is BRILLIANT - thank you so much for taking the initiative!

From reading the PDF, it also appears to bring the possibility of 
mapping multiple WIN drives (1..8) to distinct container files 
simultaneously, which - as far as I was aware - could not be achieved 
before with the original (and very effective, within its intended scope) 
SDC driver.


Do we have any understanding of the QL (Minerva) memory utilisation of 
WIN as compared to SDC? I'm thinking about the need with the SDC driver 
to keep container file-size small in order not to consume QL memory too 
aggressively for its (equivalent of) slave-blocks. E.g. for an 
unexpanded QL of 128k, about 1.5MB container size seems to be the limit 
before you take too much memory to run the machine effectively.


If only we could find another builder/supplier of the SD interface... :-)

Martyn Hill.

On 22/01/2018 13:41, Graeme Gregory via Ql-Users wrote:


On Mon, 22 Jan 2018, at 9:41 AM, Wolfgang Lenerz via Ql-Users wrote:

Hi all,

I've released a new driver for QL-SD that uses standard qxl.win drives
instead of Qubide ones.

It's for Minerva only, though.

You can download it from www.wlenerz.com/QLSD


And the next trick make qubide do the same :-D

Graeme
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--
"There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those 
who don't."

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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Graeme Gregory via Ql-Users]

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018, at 9:41 AM, Wolfgang Lenerz via Ql-Users wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I've released a new driver for QL-SD that uses standard qxl.win drives
> instead of Qubide ones.
> 
> It's for Minerva only, though.
> 
> You can download it from www.wlenerz.com/QLSD
> 
And the next trick make qubide do the same :-D

Graeme
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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Fabrizio Diversi via Ql-Users]

Hi,

really great news ! Thanks!!

BTW , I have installed the QL-SD hardware in one of my QLs and it works 
well with GoldCard, although no way to have it working with the SGC .


I am looking forward to buy another QL-SD adapter but I am not able to 
find it anywhere on the net.


Fabrizio


On 22/01/2018 12:22, Wolfgang Lenerz via Ql-Users wrote:

Hi,

What is expected to happen if SMSQ/E is loaded on a
GoldCard/Minerva/QL-SD system with this driver at $C000 in ROM?

The driver is expected to work as well as it can with GoldCard, i.e.
probably not at all. Your comment below says it all!



Remark: This new driver can not be expected to resolve the signal
quality issue between (Super)GoldCard and QL-SD. This remains a
hardware problem.


Indeed

Wolfgang
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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Wolfgang Lenerz via Ql-Users]

Hi,
> What is expected to happen if SMSQ/E is loaded on a
> GoldCard/Minerva/QL-SD system with this driver at $C000 in ROM?

The driver is expected to work as well as it can with GoldCard, i.e.
probably not at all. Your comment below says it all!


> Remark: This new driver can not be expected to resolve the signal
> quality issue between (Super)GoldCard and QL-SD. This remains a
> hardware problem.
>

Indeed

Wolfgang
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Re: [Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Marcel Kilgus via Ql-Users]

Wolfgang Lenerz via Ql-Users wrote:
> I've released a new driver for QL-SD that uses standard qxl.win drives
> instead of Qubide ones.

I've been beta testing this for a few weeks and it's a dream come
true. Finally a reliable way to exchange lots of data between my QPC
and the QL :-)

I have updated my German Minerva+QLSD combination here
https://www.kilgus.net/2017/03/05/german-minerva-rom/
for users of the German Minerva ROM.

Cheer, Marcel

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[Ql-Users] QL-SD new driver

[Wolfgang Lenerz via Ql-Users]

Hi all,

I've released a new driver for QL-SD that uses standard qxl.win drives
instead of Qubide ones.

It's for Minerva only, though.

You can download it from www.wlenerz.com/QLSD

Have fun.

Wolfgang
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