Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
David Woolley wrote: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: ISTR reading that the Intel 80x86 line was CISC on top and RISC underneath. I couldn't swear to it though. All I ever saw or worked with was the CISC part of it. I think that pretty much defines CISC. CISC machines are normally micro-program driven machines. They didn't used to be. However, with the VAX 8600, for example, the instruction set was implemented in microcode. So were the diagnostics for that matter. Danny -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
From: Danny Mayer ma...@ntp.org USENET newsgroup comp.protocols.time.ntp\) questions.lists.ntp.org List-Unsubscribe: https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions, mailto:questions-requ...@lists.ntp.org?subject=unsubscribe List-Archive: https://lists.ntp.org/pipermail/questions List-Post: mailto:questions@lists.ntp.org List-Help: mailto:questions-requ...@lists.ntp.org?subject=help List-Subscribe: https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions, mailto:questions-requ...@lists.ntp.org?subject=subscribe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: questions-bounces+oberman=es@lists.ntp.org Errors-To: questions-bounces+oberman=es@lists.ntp.org X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5,1.2.40,4.0.166 definitions=2009-07-28_09:2009-07-24,2009-07-28,2009-07-28 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-081117 definitions=main-0907280208 X-Regulatory-Partner: 1 David Woolley wrote: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: ISTR reading that the Intel 80x86 line was CISC on top and RISC underneath. I couldn't swear to it though. All I ever saw or worked with was the CISC part of it. I think that pretty much defines CISC. CISC machines are normally micro-program driven machines. They didn't used to be. However, with the VAX 8600, for example, the instruction set was implemented in microcode. So were the diagnostics for that matter. True. but that was before the time of most of the readers here. Most CISC processors after about 1972 were micro-engine based. the original PDP-11 was not, but it was soon re-engineered as the PDP-11/20 with a micro-coded processor. The PDP-11 was the last non-micro-coded system from Digital. IBM went to micro-coded systems for their main-frames about the same time as did most others. So, while CISC could be done without a micro-engine, it was onlhy the earliest of the CISC mechines that did so. All VAX systems had micro-engines including the origianl 11/780 and 11/750. Most systems before the late 60's were effectively RISC, although no one called them that. The PDP-8 instruction set was 8 basic commands, AND, TAD, ISZ, DCA, JMS, JMP, IOP, and OPR. The OPR instructions were, effectively, a micro-engine of 19 slightly more complex instructions, but all were implemented in very simple DTL logic and none took more than a single cycle and the full 27 insgtructions were simpler than most RISC processors. -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer Energy Sciences Network (ESnet) Ernest O. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) E-mail: ober...@es.net Phone: +1 510 486-8634 Key fingerprint:059B 2DDF 031C 9BA3 14A4 EADA 927D EBB3 987B 3751 ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
In article 4a6ade33$0$31039$5a6ae...@news.aaisp.net.uk, da...@ex.djwhome.demon.co.uk.invalid says... G8KBV wrote: To get Faros (HF Beacon monitoring program, runs on Windows, It looks to me as though that application requires timing to better than about 10ms, and probably won't benefit much more below about 2.5ms. I'm assuming that they are trying to treat the morse code station ident as though it were a code division multiplexing spreading code. The ident is at 22wpm. 12 wpm uses 100 ms basic units, so 22 uses approximately 50ms units. One wants significantly better timing than that. I note that Faros requires special access to the sound hardware - presumably it only works with real sound cards, not USB ones. It seems to me that you could use any stereo sound card, with very loose scheduling requirements if you fed a PPS signal into the opposite channel from that used for the off air signal, and used that as a timing reference for the off air signal, and to calibrate the sound card sampling clock. As it looks like it is closed source, it would have to be done by the vendor, or it would have to be re-implemented. Indeed, it is. I (and one or two others) have asked the author Alex VE3NEA, but he seems uninterested in implementing any local GPS driven (for example) time synchronisation. Pitty, considering that the beacon's themselves are GPS' synched. Hence my interest in getting something local (on my LAN) working one day, so as to not rely on my (variable) ISP's servers. Cheers All. Dave G8KBV. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
Uwe Klein wrote: David Woolley wrote: G8KBV wrote: http://bifferos.bizhat.com/ Since when has Intel architecture been reduced instruction set. Looks like someone's marketing department has completely devalued RISC! Thats a nice and cheap toy. ( thanks for the hint G8KBV David, where do you see RISC mentioned? uwe, DG5AO ISTR reading that the Intel 80x86 line was CISC on top and RISC underneath. I couldn't swear to it though. All I ever saw or worked with was the CISC part of it. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
Richard B. Gilbert wrote: ISTR reading that the Intel 80x86 line was CISC on top and RISC underneath. I couldn't swear to it though. All I ever saw or worked with was the CISC part of it. I think that pretty much defines CISC. CISC machines are normally micro-program driven machines. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
Richard B. Gilbert wrote: [] Well, this house has four bedrooms. We only need one to sleep in. The other three provide an office/study for me, the same for my wife and a computer room. About the same here! AIRC, the MicroVAX II occupied about as much space as a large suitcase. I don't recall how much power it needed; only that it used a standard 3 Prong U-Ground plug. My VAXstation 4000/VLC meets my needs for a VAX. There's a uVAX 3100 around here somewhere; I suppose I ought to sell it. I don't use it for anything and it's not likely that I will. It was the BA123 Dalek MicroVAX-II enclosure which I had under my desk for a while: http://hampage.hu/dr/ba123.html I suppose it was eventually sent for scrap. Cheers, David ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
G8KBV wrote: To get Faros (HF Beacon monitoring program, runs on Windows, It looks to me as though that application requires timing to better than about 10ms, and probably won't benefit much more below about 2.5ms. I'm assuming that they are trying to treat the morse code station ident as though it were a code division multiplexing spreading code. The ident is at 22wpm. 12 wpm uses 100 ms basic units, so 22 uses approximately 50ms units. One wants significantly better timing than that. I note that Faros requires special access to the sound hardware - presumably it only works with real sound cards, not USB ones. It seems to me that you could use any stereo sound card, with very loose scheduling requirements if you fed a PPS signal into the opposite channel from that used for the off air signal, and used that as a timing reference for the off air signal, and to calibrate the sound card sampling clock. As it looks like it is closed source, it would have to be done by the vendor, or it would have to be re-implemented. http://bifferos.bizhat.com/ Since when has Intel architecture been reduced instruction set. Looks like someone's marketing department has completely devalued RISC! ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
David J Taylor wrote: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: [] Well, this house has four bedrooms. We only need one to sleep in. The other three provide an office/study for me, the same for my wife and a computer room. About the same here! AIRC, the MicroVAX II occupied about as much space as a large suitcase. I don't recall how much power it needed; only that it used a standard 3 Prong U-Ground plug. My VAXstation 4000/VLC meets my needs for a VAX. There's a uVAX 3100 around here somewhere; I suppose I ought to sell it. I don't use it for anything and it's not likely that I will. It was the BA123 Dalek MicroVAX-II enclosure which I had under my desk for a while: http://hampage.hu/dr/ba123.html I suppose it was eventually sent for scrap. Cheers, David The MicroVAX II that I dimly recall was not quite that wide! ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
David Woolley wrote: G8KBV wrote: http://bifferos.bizhat.com/ Since when has Intel architecture been reduced instruction set. Looks like someone's marketing department has completely devalued RISC! Thats a nice and cheap toy. ( thanks for the hint G8KBV David, where do you see RISC mentioned? uwe, DG5AO ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
Uwe Klein wrote: David, where do you see RISC mentioned? http://www.sima.com.tw/download/R8610_D06_20051003.pdf linked from http://sites.google.com/site/bifferboard/Home/hardware-specification linked from http://sites.google.com/site/bifferboard/ linked from http://bifferos.bizhat.com/ ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
David Woolley wrote: Uwe Klein wrote: David, where do you see RISC mentioned? http://www.sima.com.tw/download/R8610_D06_20051003.pdf linked from http://sites.google.com/site/bifferboard/Home/hardware-specification linked from http://sites.google.com/site/bifferboard/ linked from http://bifferos.bizhat.com/ Hmm, that certainly is strange. looks like IA32, but thats not RICS, for sure. ( though most of the IA32 cores are nowadays actually RISC and have an IA32 instruction set interpreter. The most extreme implementation was that transmeta processor) uwe ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
Dave Baxter wrote: The NTP problem, is because my ISP (Demon) has been bought out by CW, and they are continualy messing with the network. Resulting in ping latences of nearly 2 seconds at times during the day. Even worse, that varies ping to ping, so what chance protocols like NTP? When I first found the problem, and (after checking all my kit) contacted their support peeps, they asked What's NTP?. I'm not the only one affected, others are too, perhaps to a much lesser extent, and also in different ways. Ping uses ICMP and it is possible that they will block them while NTP uses UDP and would not normally be blocked though with ISP's you never know. Your best bet, given the circumstances, is to get a refclock and install it on one of your systems. That at least will ensure that you have good time synchronization. There are a number of people in the UK like Dave Taylor, Dave Woolley, Jonathan Buzzard, etc. who run refclocks and can give you a better idea of what one would cost there and how to set them up. You might want to consider that route. Danny -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
Richard B. Gilbert wrote: David Woolley wrote: Hal Murray wrote: Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTP_server_misuse_and_abuse Although probably true about this case, a quick skim makes me think that this article breaks the Original Research rules for Wikipedia. I think any one incident would be borderline on the rule, but associating the incidents without a source for the analysis of their releationship seems to me to be over the line. Both incidents are well known. Their only relationship was in having a poorly designed and/or a poorly implemented NTP client which caused particular servers to be bombarded with thousands of requests per second. The fix was adding to the RFC a requirement that a client failing to get a reply back off exponentially; e.g. if you don't get a reply, double the interval between requests! If this is correctly implemented it results in the client increasing the interval between requests until queries are sent at intervals of 1024 seconds. While I did get that language into the RFC draft, there is no guarantee that 1) the implementor will read the RFC and 2) they will obey RFC's and there is no IETF police to go arrest them for violating RFC's. There is also a Kiss of Death packet which will cause a conforming implementation to cease polling the server issuing the K.O.D. Again the chances are pretty good that the implementor will not know what a KOD packet is, never mind obey the RFC requirements. On the other hand with the last change that Dave Mills made, if the server is running the most recent ntpd code, the oblivious client will find that their clock is drifting away faster and faster each time it queries the server and it gets a KOD packet back! At this point, anyone who causes a repeat incident risks being laughed off the planet!! Well at least their clock will be so badly off, they may as well be. See above. I'd make a small bet that there will be another incident! Never underestimate the power of human stupidity!! That's practically guaranteed. See above. Danny -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
Richard B. Gilbert wrote: Maarten Wiltink wrote: Richard B. Gilbert rgilber...@comcast.net wrote in message news:vdadnwa89vi0xpxxnz2dnuvz_redn...@giganews.com... [...] The Meinberg NTP software is standard NTPD with a Windows installer! If you are really good with Windows you might be able to install an X86 version of NTPD on a Windows system without Meinberg. ... Really good is vastly overstated. Put the binaries somewhere and install ntpd.exe as a service. There's even a (custom) instsrv.exe that comes with it, although I think I used the generic one from the Resource Kit. Then figure out where ntp.conf goes by default[0] and it works. I wouldn't trust my parents to get it working, but my sister-in-law should be able to do it. Groetjes, Maarten Wiltink [0] Or pass a parameter to the executable. Given that Windows is pre-installed or will be installed as soon as you insert a CD/DVD in the drive and that it ships with essentially NO documentation, I wouldn't count on it. I would have to do a good bit of studying to find out HOW to install ntpd.exe as a service. I've been using Windows since V3.1, or maybe 2.x, it's been a while! I have an installer for ntpd that I haven't yet released which is just a GUI interface and then does the rest. Unlike the Meinberg install it's not a wizard and does not create an ntp.conf file. It's much better than the instsrv and is designed as a minimalst installer. I do intend to release it at some point for people who want something better than instsrv but don't want to use the Meinberg installer. It's written in C++ and does much of the work but does not disable w32time. Danny I run ntpd on a Solaris box that serves time to the rest of computers in the house. The windows boxes usually manage to get the date, hours and minutes correct. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
Richard B. Gilbert wrote: David J Taylor wrote: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: [] Well, this house has four bedrooms. We only need one to sleep in. The other three provide an office/study for me, the same for my wife and a computer room. About the same here! AIRC, the MicroVAX II occupied about as much space as a large suitcase. I don't recall how much power it needed; only that it used a standard 3 Prong U-Ground plug. My VAXstation 4000/VLC meets my needs for a VAX. There's a uVAX 3100 around here somewhere; I suppose I ought to sell it. I don't use it for anything and it's not likely that I will. It was the BA123 Dalek MicroVAX-II enclosure which I had under my desk for a while: http://hampage.hu/dr/ba123.html I suppose it was eventually sent for scrap. Cheers, David The MicroVAX II that I dimly recall was not quite that wide! There were several variants. The one I had was backbreaking heavy. The 3100's were a blessing in comparison. There was the tall narrow box and the wide squat box, the BA123. It allowed you to stuff more options into it. Luckily, working for DEC, I didn't need to pay to take them home for work purposes. Danny -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
tglassey wrote: G8KBV wrote: Wonder if this will get posed, or returned to me.. Hi... Been lurking for a while. Also, been messing about trying to get a local (to me) GPS Disciplined NTP server working, based on David Taylor's work with FreeBSD, Yes this is a good place to start. I think I have one of those configured OK, but I've got other issues with FreeBSD on that machine that sort of prevent me using it for unattended appliance use. It keeps generating system emails for the Root user, and I can't find out why! Other than its something about recovered editor files? There is a process called virecover which starts from boot - you can disable it. Look in /etc/rc.d/virecover. In fact /etc/rc.d is the directory with many of the start/stop rc (*scripts) files. But you could have found this by simply typing a google search for stopping virecover for what its worth. So... I'm about to try a couple of Windows solutions (opportunities) One the Tardis program, that would appear to be able to take PPS based GPS signals, and act as a server. Its not NTP - but rather SNTP as I recall. What are you trying to accomplish? using a non-evidentiary grade of time services or putting together provable time services for your system? Have to say, if it works, that would be a good solution for some other interested parties (near zero config!) Except the reason for setting the time data on the system is so that the log files can be properly compared to the real world and that the time-sensitve crypto features of Kerberos and other tools work The author of that app seems to think it should work (they would I guess?) Plus, I know my way around most of Windoze, unlike my knowledge of Linuz/BSD or whatever, that just slows me down to the point of frustration. No one in the (local to me) LUG is interested in any of this sort of thing sadly. ( just why is it that about all 'nix documentation and help files, are written almost exclusively to obfuscate the needed information?) Also the Meinberg NTP software (not looked at in detail yet) Both of them (independently while I play with them) will each live on a dedicated PC for now, but ultimately one or the other would need to co-exist on the same PC with the monitoring program (Faros) that needs the time stamps. Pointing it's NTP client routines at LocalHost? Low single figure mS jitter is OK, sub uS accuracy is just not needed. However, while involved in something else, this came to my attention http://bifferos.bizhat.com/ Now, I realise the clock speed is not that quick by modern standards, but could that have enough grunt to work as a GPSDNTP server for a small low traffic LAN?.. OK, I've managed (I think, as earlier) to get an older version of FreeBSD to run for this sort of thing (on a 500MHz P3 machine) But, just how cut down can it go, with just enough left to boot and do the NTP task, or is the Kernel BifferOS uses capable of half decent NPT serving tasks as it is? It appears to use a version of the same code others are using in the WRTG routers for other purposes. Or, has anyone done similar with re-purposed Router hardware for example (Linksys, Sweex, etc) I am aware of someone selling (too rich for me!) a GPSDNTP server based on a Slug (eBay 180384450442) using a USB connected GPS. My ultimate goal? To get Faros (HF Beacon monitoring program, runs on Windows, only.) A GPSDNTP source, HF Receiver control app (my own code) and the resulting web based status page (or website updater) all living on the same PC. I may have a 1GHz P3 available, if I can get replacement RAM for it. With Win2k already resident. And a couple of Garmin GPS16LVS devices, verified working with 1PPS output. Now, if Alex would integrate GPS timekeeping within Faros, all this would not be needed, but he has his own reasons it seems for not doing so. As a result, it needs a 24/7 'net connection, or access to some other NTP time source. My ISP's servers are somewhat less than reliable at times, likewise access to others due to unpredictable and huge WAN network latencies from time to time. I also can't help wondering if any of the modern single chip microcontrollers, some of which have available IP stacks, could do the GPSDNTP thing in raw machine (or compiled) code. But try as I might, I can find no reference to anyone trying such a thing. I am of course trying to keep the electric bill down, running 3 PC's and a radio or two 24/7 is somewhat noticeable to the wallet these days, and it is not getting any easier!... Then there is the chore of just finding the time to research and mess with all this stuff... Enough waffle from me... Regards to All.. Dave Baxter. G0WBX. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
G8KBV wrote: Wonder if this will get posed, or returned to me.. Hi... Been lurking for a while. Also, been messing about trying to get a local (to me) GPS Disciplined NTP server working, based on David Taylor's work with FreeBSD, Yes this is a good place to start. I think I have one of those configured OK, but I've got other issues with FreeBSD on that machine that sort of prevent me using it for unattended appliance use. It keeps generating system emails for the Root user, and I can't find out why! Other than its something about recovered editor files? There is a process called virecover which starts from boot - you can disable it. Look in /etc/rc.d/virecover. In fact /etc/rc.d is the directory with many of the start/stop rc (*scripts) files. But you could have found this by simply typing a google search for stopping virecover for what its worth. So... I'm about to try a couple of Windows solutions (opportunities) One the Tardis program, that would appear to be able to take PPS based GPS signals, and act as a server. Its not NTP - but rather SNTP as I recall. What are you trying to accomplish? using a non-evidentiary grade of time services or putting together provable time services for your system? Have to say, if it works, that would be a good solution for some other interested parties (near zero config!) Except the reason for setting the time data on the system is so that the log files can be properly compared to the real world and that the time-sensitve crypto features of Kerberos and other tools work The author of that app seems to think it should work (they would I guess?) Plus, I know my way around most of Windoze, unlike my knowledge of Linuz/BSD or whatever, that just slows me down to the point of frustration. No one in the (local to me) LUG is interested in any of this sort of thing sadly. ( just why is it that about all 'nix documentation and help files, are written almost exclusively to obfuscate the needed information?) Also the Meinberg NTP software (not looked at in detail yet) Both of them (independently while I play with them) will each live on a dedicated PC for now, but ultimately one or the other would need to co-exist on the same PC with the monitoring program (Faros) that needs the time stamps. Pointing it's NTP client routines at LocalHost? Low single figure mS jitter is OK, sub uS accuracy is just not needed. However, while involved in something else, this came to my attention http://bifferos.bizhat.com/ Now, I realise the clock speed is not that quick by modern standards, but could that have enough grunt to work as a GPSDNTP server for a small low traffic LAN?.. OK, I've managed (I think, as earlier) to get an older version of FreeBSD to run for this sort of thing (on a 500MHz P3 machine) But, just how cut down can it go, with just enough left to boot and do the NTP task, or is the Kernel BifferOS uses capable of half decent NPT serving tasks as it is? It appears to use a version of the same code others are using in the WRTG routers for other purposes. Or, has anyone done similar with re-purposed Router hardware for example (Linksys, Sweex, etc) I am aware of someone selling (too rich for me!) a GPSDNTP server based on a Slug (eBay 180384450442) using a USB connected GPS. My ultimate goal? To get Faros (HF Beacon monitoring program, runs on Windows, only.) A GPSDNTP source, HF Receiver control app (my own code) and the resulting web based status page (or website updater) all living on the same PC. I may have a 1GHz P3 available, if I can get replacement RAM for it. With Win2k already resident. And a couple of Garmin GPS16LVS devices, verified working with 1PPS output. Now, if Alex would integrate GPS timekeeping within Faros, all this would not be needed, but he has his own reasons it seems for not doing so. As a result, it needs a 24/7 'net connection, or access to some other NTP time source. My ISP's servers are somewhat less than reliable at times, likewise access to others due to unpredictable and huge WAN network latencies from time to time. I also can't help wondering if any of the modern single chip microcontrollers, some of which have available IP stacks, could do the GPSDNTP thing in raw machine (or compiled) code. But try as I might, I can find no reference to anyone trying such a thing. I am of course trying to keep the electric bill down, running 3 PC's and a radio or two 24/7 is somewhat noticeable to the wallet these days, and it is not getting any easier!... Then there is the chore of just finding the time to research and mess with all this stuff... Enough waffle from me... Regards to All.. Dave Baxter. G0WBX. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
David J Taylor wrote: Dave Baxter wrote: Hi David.. Yes, I've been following your progress with your various servers, impressive, but I struggle to get the time to keep up these days. OK on the sort of hardware your FreeBSD system ran on, so by the sound of it that BifferBoard thing might work OK. I just need to find someone relatively local to me who's a bit of an Embedded FreeBSD/Linux guru. Few and far between, or they keep themselves well hidden ;-) There a few folk lurking here I hear that Linux is not as good as FreeBSD for timekeeping, by the way. Hmmm - Depending on the kernel and what's loaded into it... My feeling is that FreeBSD on a ELAN based system may be the best system for time-tracking running NTP but I do have a version of Chrony running in my lab with really impressive results on a mach64 kernel. Todd Glassey I presume you mean QRM (Man made) as oposed to QRN (Natural) interference from all the digital kit. Slip of finger on keys no doubt. All good fun, until neighborhood PLT comes by. Cheers. Dave B. Indeed - QRM, but not from intentional radio transmissions. 73, David ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.23/2254 - Release Date: 07/22/09 05:59:00 ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
David Woolley wrote: [] Normally people reckon in terms of low 10s of mss for Windows, although there are claims of better performance, possibly on lightly loaded systems. When configured as a stratum-1 ref-clock, I regularly see much better than 10ms with Windows: ~100-150us on an XP server system: http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/feenix_ntp_2.html ~500us on an XP interactive system: http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/stamsund_ntp_2.html ~100us on a Windows 2000 server system: http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/bacchus_ntp-p.html For a Windows XP client system synced over the LAN to these stratum-1 servers I typically see an accuracy of about 1.5ms. http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/narvik_ntp-b.html Loopstats available: http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/daily_ntp.html#Loopstats Temperature stability appears to be one limiting factor. Cheers, David ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
So... I'm about to try a couple of Windows solutions (opportunities) One the Tardis program, that would appear to be able to take PPS based GPS signals, and act as a server. Tardis? Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTP_server_misuse_and_abuse In particular, I'd call Dave Plonka's writeup at http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~plonka/netgear-sntp/ required reading for anybody thinking about writing networking software. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
Hal Murray wrote: Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTP_server_misuse_and_abuse Although probably true about this case, a quick skim makes me think that this article breaks the Original Research rules for Wikipedia. I think any one incident would be borderline on the rule, but associating the incidents without a source for the analysis of their releationship seems to me to be over the line. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
Richard B. Gilbert rgilber...@comcast.net wrote in message news:vdadnwa89vi0xpxxnz2dnuvz_redn...@giganews.com... [...] The Meinberg NTP software is standard NTPD with a Windows installer! If you are really good with Windows you might be able to install an X86 version of NTPD on a Windows system without Meinberg. ... Really good is vastly overstated. Put the binaries somewhere and install ntpd.exe as a service. There's even a (custom) instsrv.exe that comes with it, although I think I used the generic one from the Resource Kit. Then figure out where ntp.conf goes by default[0] and it works. I wouldn't trust my parents to get it working, but my sister-in-law should be able to do it. Groetjes, Maarten Wiltink [0] Or pass a parameter to the executable. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
In article vdadnwa89vi0xpxxnz2dnuvz_redn...@giganews.com, rgilbert88 @comcast.net says... G8KBV wrote: Wonder if this will get posed, or returned to me.. Hi... Been lurking for a while. Also, been messing about trying to get a local (to me) GPS Disciplined NTP server working, based on David Taylor's work with FreeBSD, I think I have one of those configured OK, but I've got other issues with FreeBSD on that machine that sort of prevent me using it for unattended appliance use. It keeps generating system emails for the Root user, and I can't find out why! Other than its something about recovered editor files? A Free BSD group might be a better place to ask. When you ask, you should probably include the text of one of these e-mails. I am indeed alredy lurking on one of the FreeBSD lists, waiting to gauge when to ask questions. Regards. Dave B G0WBX ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
In article 4a68f2e9$0$31032$5a6ae...@news.aaisp.net.uk, da...@ex.djwhome.demon.co.uk.invalid says... G8KBV wrote: Wonder if this will get posed, or returned to me.. As far as I know, Google groups rejects synchronously. A direct NNTP client certainly would. So... I'm about to try a couple of Windows solutions (opportunities) One the Tardis program, that would appear Unless you are using an MS-DOS based Windows (ME was the last) I can see no point whatsoever in using a shareware program with unknown internals when the official version of NTP is available as open source! There is no certainty about the internals of Tardis, but it is quite likely no better than recent versions of w32time (when configured properly, rather than out of the box) which has been supplied, bundled with NT based versions of Windows, for many years. w32time doesn't support local reference clocks, or PPS. The prime designer of ntpd is a radio amateur. :-) Nice to know!... Thanks for lots to think about David. Yes, for Faros, I'm locked into Windows. I have thought about virtualising things, but I also know Faros *Needs* almost direct control of the soundcard to get good timing information as to when a signal arrives. The NTP problem, is because my ISP (Demon) has been bought out by CW, and they are continualy messing with the network. Resulting in ping latences of nearly 2 seconds at times during the day. Even worse, that varies ping to ping, so what chance protocols like NTP? When I first found the problem, and (after checking all my kit) contacted their support peeps, they asked What's NTP?. I'm not the only one affected, others are too, perhaps to a much lesser extent, and also in different ways. Anyway, lots here (NTP wise) to digest and think about. Many thanks. Dave B G0WBX. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
In article 8emdnwfctpdz_ftxnz2dnuvz_qodn...@megapath.net, hal- use...@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net says... So... I'm about to try a couple of Windows solutions (opportunities) One the Tardis program, that would appear to be able to take PPS based GPS signals, and act as a server. Tardis? Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTP_server_misuse_and_abuse In particular, I'd call Dave Plonka's writeup at http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~plonka/netgear-sntp/ required reading for anybody thinking about writing networking software. Yes, I'm well aware of that. Tardis I do know has been fixed in that respect, and would not be enabled (in my case) to ask existing servers the time, only to synch to GPS and provide it to the LAN. The Netgear router issue too was solved a long time ago, but I bet there are still hundreds of affected routers still being used. Best Regards. Dave B G0WBX. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
David Woolley wrote: Hal Murray wrote: Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTP_server_misuse_and_abuse Although probably true about this case, a quick skim makes me think that this article breaks the Original Research rules for Wikipedia. I think any one incident would be borderline on the rule, but associating the incidents without a source for the analysis of their releationship seems to me to be over the line. Both incidents are well known. Their only relationship was in having a poorly designed and/or a poorly implemented NTP client which caused particular servers to be bombarded with thousands of requests per second. The fix was adding to the RFC a requirement that a client failing to get a reply back off exponentially; e.g. if you don't get a reply, double the interval between requests! If this is correctly implemented it results in the client increasing the interval between requests until queries are sent at intervals of 1024 seconds. There is also a Kiss of Death packet which will cause a conforming implementation to cease polling the server issuing the K.O.D. At this point, anyone who causes a repeat incident risks being laughed off the planet!! I'd make a small bet that there will be another incident! Never underestimate the power of human stupidity!! ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
Maarten Wiltink wrote: Richard B. Gilbert rgilber...@comcast.net wrote in message news:vdadnwa89vi0xpxxnz2dnuvz_redn...@giganews.com... [...] The Meinberg NTP software is standard NTPD with a Windows installer! If you are really good with Windows you might be able to install an X86 version of NTPD on a Windows system without Meinberg. ... Really good is vastly overstated. Put the binaries somewhere and install ntpd.exe as a service. There's even a (custom) instsrv.exe that comes with it, although I think I used the generic one from the Resource Kit. Then figure out where ntp.conf goes by default[0] and it works. I wouldn't trust my parents to get it working, but my sister-in-law should be able to do it. Groetjes, Maarten Wiltink [0] Or pass a parameter to the executable. Given that Windows is pre-installed or will be installed as soon as you insert a CD/DVD in the drive and that it ships with essentially NO documentation, I wouldn't count on it. I would have to do a good bit of studying to find out HOW to install ntpd.exe as a service. I've been using Windows since V3.1, or maybe 2.x, it's been a while! I run ntpd on a Solaris box that serves time to the rest of computers in the house. The windows boxes usually manage to get the date, hours and minutes correct. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
Richard B. Gilbert wrote: [] Given that Windows is pre-installed or will be installed as soon as you insert a CD/DVD in the drive and that it ships with essentially NO documentation, I wouldn't count on it. There's lots of documentation for Windows in the Help system and on the Internet. Try the Help on Vista or Windows-7 for example. Quite good. But most users are not under the hood types, any more than folks would repair their own cars or TVs today. [] I run ntpd on a Solaris box that serves time to the rest of computers in the house. The windows boxes usually manage to get the date, hours and minutes correct. Gross overkill - if the Solaris box is purely for time serving! G. Windows will manage to within a few tens of milliseconds even running from the Internet. Cheers, David ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
David J Taylor wrote: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: [] Given that Windows is pre-installed or will be installed as soon as you insert a CD/DVD in the drive and that it ships with essentially NO documentation, I wouldn't count on it. There's lots of documentation for Windows in the Help system and on the Internet. Try the Help on Vista or Windows-7 for example. Quite good. But most users are not under the hood types, any more than folks would repair their own cars or TVs today. [] I run ntpd on a Solaris box that serves time to the rest of computers in the house. The windows boxes usually manage to get the date, hours and minutes correct. Gross overkill - if the Solaris box is purely for time serving! G. Windows will manage to within a few tens of milliseconds even running from the Internet. The Solaris systems are part of my home lab. I run S8, S9, and S10 on three Ultra 10s. I have RHEL V4 running on an OLD PC. I have OpenVMS running on a DEC Alpha. My desktop is a PC running W/XP. When I need to do something I can generally find a system that will help! ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
Richard B. Gilbert wrote: [] The Solaris systems are part of my home lab. I run S8, S9, and S10 on three Ultra 10s. I have RHEL V4 running on an OLD PC. I have OpenVMS running on a DEC Alpha. My desktop is a PC running W/XP. When I need to do something I can generally find a system that will help! Fascinating, Richard. I had an opportunity to have a real VAX (microVAX II, IIRC), but I really couldn't find the space or the electricity! Cheers, David ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
David J Taylor wrote: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: [] The Solaris systems are part of my home lab. I run S8, S9, and S10 on three Ultra 10s. I have RHEL V4 running on an OLD PC. I have OpenVMS running on a DEC Alpha. My desktop is a PC running W/XP. When I need to do something I can generally find a system that will help! Fascinating, Richard. I had an opportunity to have a real VAX (microVAX II, IIRC), but I really couldn't find the space or the electricity! Cheers, David Well, this house has four bedrooms. We only need one to sleep in. The other three provide an office/study for me, the same for my wife and a computer room. AIRC, the MicroVAX II occupied about as much space as a large suitcase. I don't recall how much power it needed; only that it used a standard 3 Prong U-Ground plug. My VAXstation 4000/VLC meets my needs for a VAX. There's a uVAX 3100 around here somewhere; I suppose I ought to sell it. I don't use it for anything and it's not likely that I will. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
[ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
Wonder if this will get posed, or returned to me.. Hi... Been lurking for a while. Also, been messing about trying to get a local (to me) GPS Disciplined NTP server working, based on David Taylor's work with FreeBSD, I think I have one of those configured OK, but I've got other issues with FreeBSD on that machine that sort of prevent me using it for unattended appliance use. It keeps generating system emails for the Root user, and I can't find out why! Other than its something about recovered editor files? So... I'm about to try a couple of Windows solutions (opportunities) One the Tardis program, that would appear to be able to take PPS based GPS signals, and act as a server. Have to say, if it works, that would be a good solution for some other interested parties (near zero config!) The author of that app seems to think it should work (they would I guess?) Plus, I know my way around most of Windoze, unlike my knowledge of Linuz/BSD or whatever, that just slows me down to the point of frustration. No one in the (local to me) LUG is interested in any of this sort of thing sadly. ( just why is it that about all 'nix documentation and help files, are written almost exclusively to obfuscate the needed information?) Also the Meinberg NTP software (not looked at in detail yet) Both of them (independently while I play with them) will each live on a dedicated PC for now, but ultimately one or the other would need to co-exist on the same PC with the monitoring program (Faros) that needs the time stamps. Pointing it's NTP client routines at LocalHost? Low single figure mS jitter is OK, sub uS accuracy is just not needed. However, while involved in something else, this came to my attention http://bifferos.bizhat.com/ Now, I realise the clock speed is not that quick by modern standards, but could that have enough grunt to work as a GPSDNTP server for a small low traffic LAN?.. OK, I've managed (I think, as earlier) to get an older version of FreeBSD to run for this sort of thing (on a 500MHz P3 machine) But, just how cut down can it go, with just enough left to boot and do the NTP task, or is the Kernel BifferOS uses capable of half decent NPT serving tasks as it is? It appears to use a version of the same code others are using in the WRTG routers for other purposes. Or, has anyone done similar with re-purposed Router hardware for example (Linksys, Sweex, etc) I am aware of someone selling (too rich for me!) a GPSDNTP server based on a Slug (eBay 180384450442) using a USB connected GPS. My ultimate goal? To get Faros (HF Beacon monitoring program, runs on Windows, only.) A GPSDNTP source, HF Receiver control app (my own code) and the resulting web based status page (or website updater) all living on the same PC. I may have a 1GHz P3 available, if I can get replacement RAM for it. With Win2k already resident. And a couple of Garmin GPS16LVS devices, verified working with 1PPS output. Now, if Alex would integrate GPS timekeeping within Faros, all this would not be needed, but he has his own reasons it seems for not doing so. As a result, it needs a 24/7 'net connection, or access to some other NTP time source. My ISP's servers are somewhat less than reliable at times, likewise access to others due to unpredictable and huge WAN network latencies from time to time. I also can't help wondering if any of the modern single chip microcontrollers, some of which have available IP stacks, could do the GPSDNTP thing in raw machine (or compiled) code. But try as I might, I can find no reference to anyone trying such a thing. I am of course trying to keep the electric bill down, running 3 PC's and a radio or two 24/7 is somewhat noticeable to the wallet these days, and it is not getting any easier!... Then there is the chore of just finding the time to research and mess with all this stuff... Enough waffle from me... Regards to All.. Dave Baxter. G0WBX. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
G8KBV wrote: Wonder if this will get posed, or returned to me.. Hi... Been lurking for a while. Also, been messing about trying to get a local (to me) GPS Disciplined NTP server working, based on David Taylor's work with FreeBSD, I think I have one of those configured OK, but I've got other issues with FreeBSD on that machine that sort of prevent me using it for unattended appliance use. It keeps generating system emails for the Root user, and I can't find out why! Other than its something about recovered editor files? So... I'm about to try a couple of Windows solutions (opportunities) Dave, I have since retired the FreeBSD server in favour of Windows 2000 and XP systems which can provide a good enough offset for me (within a millisecond or so). Look at the three systems here: http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/daily_ntp.html Feenix - lightly loaded XP system Stamsund - heavily used interactive XP system Bacchus - lightly loaded windows 2000 system, with occasional 100% CPU load from a weekly defrag (today's defrag would not do this). [] However, while involved in something else, this came to my attention http://bifferos.bizhat.com/ My FreeBSD system ran on a 48MB 133MHz pentium system, so not dissimilar in power. But having a router box you could simply convert might be easier. You can use serial-to-USB convertors and not loose too much accuracy: http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/NTP-on-Windows-serial-port.html#usb Now, I realise the clock speed is not that quick by modern standards, but could that have enough grunt to work as a GPSDNTP server for a small low traffic LAN?.. [] Enough waffle from me... Regards to All.. Dave Baxter. G0WBX. Sounds a fascinating project, Dave. Too much QRN from all the computers here to do too much radio! 73, David ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
Hi David.. Yes, I've been following your progress with your various servers, impressive, but I struggle to get the time to keep up these days. OK on the sort of hardware your FreeBSD system ran on, so by the sound of it that BifferBoard thing might work OK. I just need to find someone relatively local to me who's a bit of an Embedded FreeBSD/Linux guru. Few and far between, or they keep themselves well hidden ;-) I presume you mean QRM (Man made) as oposed to QRN (Natural) interference from all the digital kit. Slip of finger on keys no doubt. All good fun, until neighborhood PLT comes by. Cheers. Dave B. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
On 2009-07-23, G8KBV g8kbvd...@googlemail.com wrote: Wonder if this will get posed, or returned to me.. Hi... Been lurking for a while. Also, been messing about trying to get a local (to me) GPS Disciplined NTP server working, based on David Taylor's work with FreeBSD, I think I have one of those configured OK, but I've got other issues with FreeBSD on that machine that sort of prevent me using it for unattended appliance use. It keeps generating system emails for the Root user, and I can't find out why! Other than its something about recovered editor files? Dave: You will probably not find a better timekeeper than using the FreeBSD machine. The resources required are very minimal compared to running any Windows version. You might try logging into the FreeBSD computer as root and reading the mail using the 'mail' command. Select the message number, after the message has been read, press the 'd' key. When all of the messages for root have been read, press the 'q' key to quit. That will clear all of root's unread messages. To redirect your syslog messages to the console instead of a file, edit the '/etc/syslog' file and point all of the entries to 'dev/console'. It is not a good idea to stop the log outputs by directing things to '/dec/null'. You might want to read some of them. The unrecovered editor sessions can be read by starting vi with the '-r' flag. This is really about using FreeBSD for a timekeeper, you really can't go wrong. Your OS related setup questions should really be directed to a FreeBSD newsgroup, they are much better at handling questions and can always point you to a website for more in depth answers. Tom -- Public Keys: PGP KeyID = 0x5F22FDC1GnuPG KeyID = 0x620836CF ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
Dave Baxter wrote: Hi David.. Yes, I've been following your progress with your various servers, impressive, but I struggle to get the time to keep up these days. OK on the sort of hardware your FreeBSD system ran on, so by the sound of it that BifferBoard thing might work OK. I just need to find someone relatively local to me who's a bit of an Embedded FreeBSD/Linux guru. Few and far between, or they keep themselves well hidden ;-) There a few folk lurking here I hear that Linux is not as good as FreeBSD for timekeeping, by the way. I presume you mean QRM (Man made) as oposed to QRN (Natural) interference from all the digital kit. Slip of finger on keys no doubt. All good fun, until neighborhood PLT comes by. Cheers. Dave B. Indeed - QRM, but not from intentional radio transmissions. 73, David ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
You might try logging into the FreeBSD computer as root and reading the mail using the 'mail' command. And if you really, REALLY don't want to ever see ANY e-mail from this box -- no matter what it is -- you could edit the mail alias file (/etc/aliases or /etc/mail/aliases, not sure which file name FreeBSD uses nowadays), delete any existing line starting with root:, and add a line saying root: /dev/null, and then do newaliases to create a new hashed version of the alias file. This will cause all e-mail for root to be silently thrown away. It would be a lot better, of course, to redirect that root mail to some other account on a different box, but . . . . To redirect your syslog messages to the console instead of a file, edit the '/etc/syslog' file and point all of the entries to 'dev/console'. It is not a good idea to stop the log outputs by directing things to '/dec/null'. You might want to read some of them. And just for the benefit of those who might not know enough about Unixoid systems to catch the typos, those path names should be /dev/console (with an initial slash) and /dev/null, respectively. -- Rich Wales / ri...@richw.org / ri...@stanford.edu Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Richwales Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/richwales ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
From: Thomas Laus lau...@acm.org Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:26:02 -0500 Sender: questions-bounces+oberman=es@lists.ntp.org On 2009-07-23, G8KBV g8kbvd...@googlemail.com wrote: Wonder if this will get posed, or returned to me.. Hi... Been lurking for a while. Also, been messing about trying to get a local (to me) GPS Disciplined NTP server working, based on David Taylor's work with FreeBSD, I think I have one of those configured OK, but I've got other issues with FreeBSD on that machine that sort of prevent me using it for unattended appliance use. It keeps generating system emails for the Root user, and I can't find out why! Other than its something about recovered editor files? Dave: You will probably not find a better timekeeper than using the FreeBSD machine. The resources required are very minimal compared to running any Windows version. You might try logging into the FreeBSD computer as root and reading the mail using the 'mail' command. Select the message number, after the message has been read, press the 'd' key. When all of the messages for root have been read, press the 'q' key to quit. That will clear all of root's unread messages. To redirect your syslog messages to the console instead of a file, edit the '/etc/syslog' file and point all of the entries to 'dev/console'. It is not a good idea to stop the log outputs by directing things to '/dec/null'. You might want to read some of them. The unrecovered editor sessions can be read by starting vi with the '-r' flag. This is really about using FreeBSD for a timekeeper, you really can't go wrong. Your OS related setup questions should really be directed to a FreeBSD newsgroup, they are much better at handling questions and can always point you to a website for more in depth answers. The mail is a result of the daily system cleanup-checking jobs. You can stop the jobs from running by editing /etc/crontab and commenting out the periodic lines. I would not recommend this, though. I'd suggest creating a .forward file in /root containing an e-mail address where the messages should be sent. There are usually one or two messages Sunday through Friday with an extra one every Saturday and on the first of every month. They will give you information on any system problems as well as a very useful security report. (They are pretty boring, but when they are not, it's a big deal.) -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer Energy Sciences Network (ESnet) Ernest O. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) E-mail: ober...@es.net Phone: +1 510 486-8634 Key fingerprint:059B 2DDF 031C 9BA3 14A4 EADA 927D EBB3 987B 3751 ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
In article asmdnakmdodn7_xxnz2dnuvz_j-dn...@supernews.com, lau...@acm.org says... On 2009-07-23, G8KBV g8kbvd...@googlemail.com wrote: Wonder if this will get posed, or returned to me.. Hi... Been lurking for a while. Also, been messing about trying to get a local (to me) GPS Disciplined NTP server working, based on David Taylor's work with FreeBSD, I think I have one of those configured OK, but I've got other issues with FreeBSD on that machine that sort of prevent me using it for unattended appliance use. It keeps generating system emails for the Root user, and I can't find out why! Other than its something about recovered editor files? Dave: You will probably not find a better timekeeper than using the FreeBSD machine. The resources required are very minimal compared to running Hi Tom. Thanks for the tips, and yes I'll go to a more relevant list for FreeBSD details like this, I just threw it in to illustrate some slight frustration with it. Otherwise, I do sort of like the OS. As to it's timekeeping reputation, from what I can see on t'interweb, that seems justified. From what David Taylor hints at, maybe I bite the bullet, and get one of those BifferBoards, after asking somewhere about minimising FreeBSD's footprint, and making a bootable system for embedded things etc. Steep (near vertical!) learning curve at the moment. Regards. Dave B. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
Dave Baxter wrote: [] Hi Tom. [] From what David Taylor hints at, maybe I bite the bullet, and get one of those BifferBoards, after asking somewhere about minimising FreeBSD's footprint, and making a bootable system for embedded things etc. Steep (near vertical!) learning curve at the moment. Regards. Dave B. I think my view is that, unless you have microsecond requirements, for most people there may be no need to add another PC even in a Windows-only environment. Different if you need a stand-alone board like your system, of course. Cheers, David ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
G8KBV wrote: Wonder if this will get posed, or returned to me.. Hi... Been lurking for a while. Also, been messing about trying to get a local (to me) GPS Disciplined NTP server working, based on David Taylor's work with FreeBSD, I think I have one of those configured OK, but I've got other issues with FreeBSD on that machine that sort of prevent me using it for unattended appliance use. It keeps generating system emails for the Root user, and I can't find out why! Other than its something about recovered editor files? A Free BSD group might be a better place to ask. When you ask, you should probably include the text of one of these e-mails. So... I'm about to try a couple of Windows solutions (opportunities) One the Tardis program, that would appear to be able to take PPS based GPS signals, and act as a server. Have to say, if it works, that would be a good solution for some other interested parties (near zero config!) The author of that app seems to think it should work (they would I guess?) Plus, I know my way around most of Windoze, unlike my knowledge of Linuz/BSD or whatever, that just slows me down to the point of frustration. No one in the (local to me) LUG is interested in any of this sort of thing sadly. ( just why is it that about all 'nix documentation and help files, are written almost exclusively to obfuscate the needed information?) Also the Meinberg NTP software (not looked at in detail yet) Both of them (independently while I play with them) will each live on a dedicated PC for now, but ultimately one or the other would need to co-exist on the same PC with the monitoring program (Faros) that needs the time stamps. Pointing it's NTP client routines at LocalHost? Low single figure mS jitter is OK, sub uS accuracy is just not needed. The Meinberg NTP software is standard NTPD with a Windows installer! If you are really good with Windows you might be able to install an X86 version of NTPD on a Windows system without Meinberg. Most people take the easy way out: Meinberg! However, while involved in something else, this came to my attention http://bifferos.bizhat.com/ Now, I realise the clock speed is not that quick by modern standards, but could that have enough grunt to work as a GPSDNTP server for a small low traffic LAN?.. OK, I've managed (I think, as earlier) to get an older version of FreeBSD to run for this sort of thing (on a 500MHz P3 machine) But, just how cut down can it go, with just enough left to boot and do the NTP task, or is the Kernel BifferOS uses capable of half decent NPT serving tasks as it is? It appears to use a version of the same code others are using in the WRTG routers for other purposes. Or, has anyone done similar with re-purposed Router hardware for example (Linksys, Sweex, etc) I am aware of someone selling (too rich for me!) a GPSDNTP server based on a Slug (eBay 180384450442) using a USB connected GPS. My ultimate goal? To get Faros (HF Beacon monitoring program, runs on Windows, only.) A GPSDNTP source, HF Receiver control app (my own code) and the resulting web based status page (or website updater) all living on the same PC. I may have a 1GHz P3 available, if I can get replacement RAM for it. With Win2k already resident. And a couple of Garmin GPS16LVS devices, verified working with 1PPS output. Now, if Alex would integrate GPS timekeeping within Faros, all this would not be needed, but he has his own reasons it seems for not doing so. As a result, it needs a 24/7 'net connection, or access to some other NTP time source. My ISP's servers are somewhat less than reliable at times, likewise access to others due to unpredictable and huge WAN network latencies from time to time. I also can't help wondering if any of the modern single chip microcontrollers, some of which have available IP stacks, could do the GPSDNTP thing in raw machine (or compiled) code. But try as I might, I can find no reference to anyone trying such a thing. I am of course trying to keep the electric bill down, running 3 PC's and a radio or two 24/7 is somewhat noticeable to the wallet these days, and it is not getting any easier!... Then there is the chore of just finding the time to research and mess with all this stuff... Enough waffle from me... Regards to All.. Dave Baxter. G0WBX. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] Local (own site) NTP servers.
G8KBV wrote: Wonder if this will get posed, or returned to me.. As far as I know, Google groups rejects synchronously. A direct NNTP client certainly would. So... I'm about to try a couple of Windows solutions (opportunities) One the Tardis program, that would appear Unless you are using an MS-DOS based Windows (ME was the last) I can see no point whatsoever in using a shareware program with unknown internals when the official version of NTP is available as open source! There is no certainty about the internals of Tardis, but it is quite likely no better than recent versions of w32time (when configured properly, rather than out of the box) which has been supplied, bundled with NT based versions of Windows, for many years. w32time doesn't support local reference clocks, or PPS. The prime designer of ntpd is a radio amateur. ( just why is it that about all 'nix documentation and help files, are written almost exclusively to obfuscate the needed information?) At least the information is there. Have you ever tried to navigate MSDN: a maze of windy passages leading nowhere. In order to make Windows appear easy, Microsoft make the scary stuff difficult or impossible to find, even though it exists in copious amounts. Also the Meinberg NTP software (not looked at in detail yet) Both of them (independently while I play with them) will each This is the same software as on FreeBSD, except that it doesn't work as well, because of the limitations of Windows. All Meinberg did was configure a Windows installer for it. live on a dedicated PC for now, but ultimately one or the other would need to co-exist on the same PC with the monitoring program (Faros) that needs the time stamps. Pointing it's NTP client routines at LocalHost? Low single figure mS jitter is OK, sub uS accuracy is just not needed. Seriously stretches Windows. Actually using NTP to access the time on the same machine removes the problem that the Windows clock cannot be read that accurately, but you still have the problem that Windows scheduling delays will introduce jitter of more than this in the measurement of the external events that you are monitoring, and possibly in the scheduling of the return to the application from the time server. Normally people reckon in terms of low 10s of mss for Windows, although there are claims of better performance, possibly on lightly loaded systems. If you want really high precision timing of sound card input, you should probably construct special hardware to inject the PPS signal into the analogue input of the sound card. However, while involved in something else, this came to my attention http://bifferos.bizhat.com/ Now, I realise the clock speed is not that quick by modern standards, but could that have enough grunt to work as a GPSDNTP server for a small low traffic LAN?.. OK, I've managed (I think, as earlier) to get an older version of FreeBSD to run for this sort of thing (on a 500MHz P3 Seriously over-powered! You should be thinking something more like 50MHz i486. machine) But, just how cut down can it go, with just enough left to boot and do the NTP task, or is the Kernel BifferOS The size of ntpd will be the main limit. With older versions of Linux, and presumably FreeBSD, you can fit everything else onto one floppy. Again, without ntpd, you would probably get away with 6MB of RAM. I'd budget on more like 16MHz, unless you start building custom versions against custom libc's. To get Faros (HF Beacon monitoring program, runs on Windows, only.) A GPSDNTP source, HF Receiver control app (my own code) and the resulting web based status page (or website Be careful about the licencing for Windows; there are severe limits on how many people can legally access a web server on a non-server edition of Windows. Now, if Alex would integrate GPS timekeeping within Faros, all this would not be needed, but he has his own reasons it seems for not doing so. As a result, it needs a 24/7 'net connection, or access to some other NTP time source. My ISP's servers are somewhat less than reliable at times, likewise access to others due to unpredictable and huge WAN network latencies from time to time. You are locked into the wrong platform, and you can't go the VM route, as VM systems give very poor timing to the virtual machines. http://bifferos.bizhat.com/ Modern versions of ntpd require floating point, whereas 486SX doesn't have it, so you will need software floating point. On the other hand, it may well have plenty of excess processing speed to support that. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
