Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
On Mar 5, 2010, at 8:19 AM, blue sky wrote: My interpretation of the relation between 1-way ANOVA and Wilcoxon's test (wilcox.test() in R) is the following. 1-way ANOVA is to test if two or multiple distributions are the same, assuming all the distributions are normal and have equal variances. Wilcoxon's test is to test two distributions are the same without assuming what their distributions are. In this sense, I'm wondering what is the generalization of Wilcoxon's test to more than two distributions. And, more general, what is the generalization of Wilcoxon's test to multi-way ANOVA with arbitrary complex model formula? What are the equivalent F statistics and t statistics in the generalization of Wilcoxon's test? Note that I'm not interested in looking for a specific nonparametric test for a particular dataset right now, although this is important in practice. What I'm interested the general nonparametric statistical framework that parallels ANOVA. Could somebody give some hints on what references I should look for? I have google searched this topic, but don't find a page that exactly answered my question. This is your first of three postings in the last hour and they are all in a category that could well be described as requests for tutoring in basic statistical topics. I am of the impression you have been requested not to engage in such behavior on this list. For this question for instance there is an entire CRAN Task View available and you have been in particular asked to sue such resource before posting. It's not the described role of the r-help list to remediate your lack of statistical background, but rather to deal with difficulties in applying the R-language to particular, discrete and exemplified problems. -- David Winsemius, MD West Hartford, CT __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
This is your first of three postings in the last hour and they are all in a category that could well be described as requests for tutoring in basic statistical topics. I am of the impression you have been requested not to engage in such behavior on this list. For this question for instance there is an entire CRAN Task View available and you have been in particular asked to sue such resource before posting. Please allow me to ask for details on this task view, because I am interested in the topic of nonparametric ANOVAs, as well. To my knowledge, there are some R scripts from Brunner et al. available on his website http://www.ams.med.uni-goettingen.de/de/sof/ld/index.html But they seem not to be working with current R versions. Best regards, Matthias Gondan -- Sicherer, schneller und einfacher. Die aktuellen Internet-Browser - jetzt kostenlos herunterladen! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/atbrowser __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
On Mar 5, 2010, at 10:34 AM, Matthias Gondan wrote: This is your first of three postings in the last hour and they are all in a category that could well be described as requests for tutoring in basic statistical topics. I am of the impression you have been requested not to engage in such behavior on this list. For this question for instance there is an entire CRAN Task View available and you have been in particular asked to sue such resource before posting. Please allow me to ask for details on this task view, because I am interested in the topic of nonparametric ANOVAs, as well. To my knowledge, there are some R scripts from Brunner et al. available on his website http://www.ams.med.uni-goettingen.de/de/sof/ld/index.html But they seem not to be working with current R versions. http://finzi.psych.upenn.edu/views/Robust.html Best regards, Matthias Gondan -- David Winsemius, MD West Hartford, CT __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
David, I agree with your sentiments. I also think that it is bad posting etiquette not to sign one's genuine name and affiliation when asking for help, which blue sky seems to do a lot. Bert Gunter has already raised this issue, and I completely agree with him. I would also like to urge the R-gurus to ignore such postings. Best, Ravi. Ravi Varadhan, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Division of Geriatric Medicine and Gerontology School of Medicine Johns Hopkins University Ph. (410) 502-2619 email: rvarad...@jhmi.edu - Original Message - From: David Winsemius dwinsem...@comcast.net Date: Friday, March 5, 2010 9:25 am Subject: Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA To: blue sky bluesky...@gmail.com Cc: r-h...@stat.math.ethz.ch On Mar 5, 2010, at 8:19 AM, blue sky wrote: My interpretation of the relation between 1-way ANOVA and Wilcoxon's test (wilcox.test() in R) is the following. 1-way ANOVA is to test if two or multiple distributions are the same, assuming all the distributions are normal and have equal variances. Wilcoxon's test is to test two distributions are the same without assuming what their distributions are. In this sense, I'm wondering what is the generalization of Wilcoxon's test to more than two distributions. And, more general, what is the generalization of Wilcoxon's test to multi-way ANOVA with arbitrary complex model formula? What are the equivalent F statistics and t statistics in the generalization of Wilcoxon's test? Note that I'm not interested in looking for a specific nonparametric test for a particular dataset right now, although this is important in practice. What I'm interested the general nonparametric statistical framework that parallels ANOVA. Could somebody give some hints on what references I should look for? I have google searched this topic, but don't find a page that exactly answered my question. This is your first of three postings in the last hour and they are all in a category that could well be described as requests for tutoring in basic statistical topics. I am of the impression you have been requested not to engage in such behavior on this list. For this question for instance there is an entire CRAN Task View available and you have been in particular asked to sue such resource before posting. It's not the described role of the r-help list to remediate your lack of statistical background, but rather to deal with difficulties in applying the R-language to particular, discrete and exemplified problems. -- David Winsemius, MD West Hartford, CT __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list PLEASE do read the posting guide and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
I am happy to answer posts to r-help regardless of the name and email address of the poster but would draw the line at someone excessively posting without a reasonable effort to find the answer first or using it for homework since such requests could flood the list making it useless for everyone. On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 10:55 AM, Ravi Varadhan rvarad...@jhmi.edu wrote: David, I agree with your sentiments. I also think that it is bad posting etiquette not to sign one's genuine name and affiliation when asking for help, which blue sky seems to do a lot. Bert Gunter has already raised this issue, and I completely agree with him. I would also like to urge the R-gurus to ignore such postings. Best, Ravi. Ravi Varadhan, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Division of Geriatric Medicine and Gerontology School of Medicine Johns Hopkins University Ph. (410) 502-2619 email: rvarad...@jhmi.edu - Original Message - From: David Winsemius dwinsem...@comcast.net Date: Friday, March 5, 2010 9:25 am Subject: Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA To: blue sky bluesky...@gmail.com Cc: r-h...@stat.math.ethz.ch On Mar 5, 2010, at 8:19 AM, blue sky wrote: My interpretation of the relation between 1-way ANOVA and Wilcoxon's test (wilcox.test() in R) is the following. 1-way ANOVA is to test if two or multiple distributions are the same, assuming all the distributions are normal and have equal variances. Wilcoxon's test is to test two distributions are the same without assuming what their distributions are. In this sense, I'm wondering what is the generalization of Wilcoxon's test to more than two distributions. And, more general, what is the generalization of Wilcoxon's test to multi-way ANOVA with arbitrary complex model formula? What are the equivalent F statistics and t statistics in the generalization of Wilcoxon's test? Note that I'm not interested in looking for a specific nonparametric test for a particular dataset right now, although this is important in practice. What I'm interested the general nonparametric statistical framework that parallels ANOVA. Could somebody give some hints on what references I should look for? I have google searched this topic, but don't find a page that exactly answered my question. This is your first of three postings in the last hour and they are all in a category that could well be described as requests for tutoring in basic statistical topics. I am of the impression you have been requested not to engage in such behavior on this list. For this question for instance there is an entire CRAN Task View available and you have been in particular asked to sue such resource before posting. It's not the described role of the r-help list to remediate your lack of statistical background, but rather to deal with difficulties in applying the R-language to particular, discrete and exemplified problems. -- David Winsemius, MD West Hartford, CT __ r-h...@r-project.org mailing list PLEASE do read the posting guide and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
Two links for you which will get your answer much quicker than a mailing list: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=non-parametric+anova+R or http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com/search.pl?query=non+parametric+anova+R Jeremy On 5 March 2010 05:19, blue sky bluesky...@gmail.com wrote: My interpretation of the relation between 1-way ANOVA and Wilcoxon's test (wilcox.test() in R) is the following. 1-way ANOVA is to test if two or multiple distributions are the same, assuming all the distributions are normal and have equal variances. Wilcoxon's test is to test two distributions are the same without assuming what their distributions are. In this sense, I'm wondering what is the generalization of Wilcoxon's test to more than two distributions. And, more general, what is the generalization of Wilcoxon's test to multi-way ANOVA with arbitrary complex model formula? What are the equivalent F statistics and t statistics in the generalization of Wilcoxon's test? Note that I'm not interested in looking for a specific nonparametric test for a particular dataset right now, although this is important in practice. What I'm interested the general nonparametric statistical framework that parallels ANOVA. Could somebody give some hints on what references I should look for? I have google searched this topic, but don't find a page that exactly answered my question. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- Jeremy Miles Psychology Research Methods Wiki: www.researchmethodsinpsychology.com __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
Gabor Grothendieck wrote: I am happy to answer posts to r-help regardless of the name and email address of the poster but would draw the line at someone excessively posting without a reasonable effort to find the answer first or using it for homework since such requests could flood the list making it useless for everyone. Gabor I respectfully disagree. It is bad practice to allow anonymous postings. We need to see real names and real affiliations. r-help is starting to border on uselessness because of the age old problem of the same question being asked every two days, a high frequency of specialty questions, and answers given with the best of intentions in incremental or contradictory e-mail pieces (as opposed to a cumulative wiki or hierarchically designed discussion web forum), as there is no moderator for the list. We don't need even more traffic from anonymous postings. Frank On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 10:55 AM, Ravi Varadhan rvarad...@jhmi.edu wrote: David, I agree with your sentiments. I also think that it is bad posting etiquette not to sign one's genuine name and affiliation when asking for help, which blue sky seems to do a lot. Bert Gunter has already raised this issue, and I completely agree with him. I would also like to urge the R-gurus to ignore such postings. Best, Ravi. Ravi Varadhan, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Division of Geriatric Medicine and Gerontology School of Medicine Johns Hopkins University Ph. (410) 502-2619 email: rvarad...@jhmi.edu - Original Message - From: David Winsemius dwinsem...@comcast.net Date: Friday, March 5, 2010 9:25 am Subject: Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA To: blue sky bluesky...@gmail.com Cc: r-h...@stat.math.ethz.ch On Mar 5, 2010, at 8:19 AM, blue sky wrote: My interpretation of the relation between 1-way ANOVA and Wilcoxon's test (wilcox.test() in R) is the following. 1-way ANOVA is to test if two or multiple distributions are the same, assuming all the distributions are normal and have equal variances. Wilcoxon's test is to test two distributions are the same without assuming what their distributions are. In this sense, I'm wondering what is the generalization of Wilcoxon's test to more than two distributions. And, more general, what is the generalization of Wilcoxon's test to multi-way ANOVA with arbitrary complex model formula? What are the equivalent F statistics and t statistics in the generalization of Wilcoxon's test? Note that I'm not interested in looking for a specific nonparametric test for a particular dataset right now, although this is important in practice. What I'm interested the general nonparametric statistical framework that parallels ANOVA. Could somebody give some hints on what references I should look for? I have google searched this topic, but don't find a page that exactly answered my question. This is your first of three postings in the last hour and they are all in a category that could well be described as requests for tutoring in basic statistical topics. I am of the impression you have been requested not to engage in such behavior on this list. For this question for instance there is an entire CRAN Task View available and you have been in particular asked to sue such resource before posting. It's not the described role of the r-help list to remediate your lack of statistical background, but rather to deal with difficulties in applying the R-language to particular, discrete and exemplified problems. -- David Winsemius, MD West Hartford, CT __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list PLEASE do read the posting guide and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- Frank E Harrell Jr Professor and ChairmanSchool of Medicine Department of Biostatistics Vanderbilt University __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 9:42 AM, David Winsemius dwinsem...@comcast.net wrote: On Mar 5, 2010, at 10:34 AM, Matthias Gondan wrote: This is your first of three postings in the last hour and they are all in a category that could well be described as requests for tutoring in basic statistical topics. I am of the impression you have been requested not to engage in such behavior on this list. For this question for instance there is an entire CRAN Task View available and you have been in particular asked to sue such resource before posting. Please allow me to ask for details on this task view, because I am interested in the topic of nonparametric ANOVAs, as well. To my knowledge, there are some R scripts from Brunner et al. available on his website http://www.ams.med.uni-goettingen.de/de/sof/ld/index.html I don't understand German. There are two references in English though. Does any of them give description of nonparametric ANOVA in a very general way. Brunner, E. , Domhof, S. und Langer,F. (2002): Nonparametric Analysis of Longitudinal Data in Factorial Experiments. Wiley, New York. Brunner, E. und Puri, M.L.. (2001): Nonparametric Methods in Factorial Designs. Statistical Papers 42, 1-52. But they seem not to be working with current R versions. http://finzi.psych.upenn.edu/views/Robust.html I think that robust analysis and nonparametric analysis are different, if I understand correctly some description in the introduction of Robust Statistics 2nd Ed by Huber and Ronchetti. Best regards, Matthias Gondan -- David Winsemius, MD West Hartford, CT __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
I don't see which a link has the GENERAL and COMPLETE MATHEMATICAL description of nonparametric ANOVA for ARBITRARY MODEL. Would you please be specific which one does so? On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 10:52 AM, Jeremy Miles jeremy.mi...@gmail.com wrote: Two links for you which will get your answer much quicker than a mailing list: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=non-parametric+anova+R or http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com/search.pl?query=non+parametric+anova+R Jeremy On 5 March 2010 05:19, blue sky bluesky...@gmail.com wrote: My interpretation of the relation between 1-way ANOVA and Wilcoxon's test (wilcox.test() in R) is the following. 1-way ANOVA is to test if two or multiple distributions are the same, assuming all the distributions are normal and have equal variances. Wilcoxon's test is to test two distributions are the same without assuming what their distributions are. In this sense, I'm wondering what is the generalization of Wilcoxon's test to more than two distributions. And, more general, what is the generalization of Wilcoxon's test to multi-way ANOVA with arbitrary complex model formula? What are the equivalent F statistics and t statistics in the generalization of Wilcoxon's test? Note that I'm not interested in looking for a specific nonparametric test for a particular dataset right now, although this is important in practice. What I'm interested the general nonparametric statistical framework that parallels ANOVA. Could somebody give some hints on what references I should look for? I have google searched this topic, but don't find a page that exactly answered my question. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- Jeremy Miles Psychology Research Methods Wiki: www.researchmethodsinpsychology.com __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
Frank, I respect your views but I agree with Gabor. The posting guide does not support your views. It is not any of our views that are important but we are following the posting guide. It covers affiliation. It says only that some consider it good manners to include a concise signature specifying affiliation. It does not agree that it is bad manners not to. It is therefore going too far to urge R-gurus, whoever they might be, to ignore such postings on that basis alone. It is up to responders (I think that is the better word which is the one used by the posting guide) whether they reply. Missing affiliation is ok by the posting guide. Users shouldn't be put off from posting because of that alone. Sending from an anonymous email address such as BioStudent is also fine by the posting guide as far as my eyes read it. It says only that the email address should work. I would also answer such anonymous posts, providing they demonstrate they made best efforts to follow the posting guide, as usual for all requests for help. Its so easy to send from a false, but apparently real name, why worry about that? If you disagree with the posting guide then you could make a suggestion to get the posting guide changed with respect to these points. But, currently, good and practice is defined by the posting guide, and I can't see that your view is backed up by it. In fact it seems to me that these points were carefully considered, and the wording is careful on these points. As far as I know you are wrong that there is no moderator. There are in fact an uncountable number of people who are empowered to moderate i.e. all of us. In other words its up to the responders to moderate. The posting guide is our guide. As a last resort we can alert the list administrator (which I believe is the correct name for him in that role), who has powers to remove an email address from the list if he thinks that is appropriate, or act otherwise, or not at all. It is actually up to responders (i.e. all of us) to ensure the posting guide is followed. My view is that the problems started with some responders on some occasions. They sometimes forgot, a little bit, to encourage and remind posters to follow the posting guide when it was not followed. This then may have encouraged more posters to think it was ok not to follow the posting guide. That is my own personal view, not a statistical one backed up by any evidence. Matthew Frank E Harrell Jr f.harr...@vanderbilt.edu wrote in message news:4b913880.9020...@vanderbilt.edu... Gabor Grothendieck wrote: I am happy to answer posts to r-help regardless of the name and email address of the poster but would draw the line at someone excessively posting without a reasonable effort to find the answer first or using it for homework since such requests could flood the list making it useless for everyone. Gabor I respectfully disagree. It is bad practice to allow anonymous postings. We need to see real names and real affiliations. r-help is starting to border on uselessness because of the age old problem of the same question being asked every two days, a high frequency of specialty questions, and answers given with the best of intentions in incremental or contradictory e-mail pieces (as opposed to a cumulative wiki or hierarchically designed discussion web forum), as there is no moderator for the list. We don't need even more traffic from anonymous postings. Frank On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 10:55 AM, Ravi Varadhan rvarad...@jhmi.edu wrote: David, I agree with your sentiments. I also think that it is bad posting etiquette not to sign one's genuine name and affiliation when asking for help, which blue sky seems to do a lot. Bert Gunter has already raised this issue, and I completely agree with him. I would also like to urge the R-gurus to ignore such postings. Best, Ravi. Ravi Varadhan, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Division of Geriatric Medicine and Gerontology School of Medicine Johns Hopkins University Ph. (410) 502-2619 email: rvarad...@jhmi.edu - Original Message - From: David Winsemius dwinsem...@comcast.net Date: Friday, March 5, 2010 9:25 am Subject: Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA To: blue sky bluesky...@gmail.com Cc: r-h...@stat.math.ethz.ch On Mar 5, 2010, at 8:19 AM, blue sky wrote: My interpretation of the relation between 1-way ANOVA and Wilcoxon's test (wilcox.test() in R) is the following. 1-way ANOVA is to test if two or multiple distributions are the same, assuming all the distributions are normal and have equal variances. Wilcoxon's test is to test two distributions are the same without assuming what their distributions are. In this sense, I'm wondering what is the generalization of Wilcoxon's test to more than two distributions. And, more general, what
Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Matthew Dowle mdo...@mdowle.plus.com wrote: As far as I know you are wrong that there is no moderator. There are in fact an uncountable number of people who are empowered to moderate i.e. all of us. In other words its up to the responders to moderate. The posting I think moderator is being used in the sense of a person who receives posts before they become public and allows or disallows each post. Using that definition there is no moderator. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
and Gerontology
School of Medicine
Johns Hopkins University
Ph. (410) 502-2619
email: rvarad...@jhmi.edu
- Original Message -
From: David Winsemius dwinsem...@comcast.net
Date: Friday, March 5, 2010 9:25 am
Subject: Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
To: blue sky bluesky...@gmail.com
Cc: r-h...@stat.math.ethz.ch
On Mar 5, 2010, at 8:19 AM, blue sky wrote:
My interpretation of the relation between 1-way ANOVA and Wilcoxon's
test (wilcox.test() in R) is the following.
1-way ANOVA is to test if two or multiple distributions are the
same,
assuming all the distributions are normal and have equal variances.
Wilcoxon's test is to test two distributions are the same without
assuming what their distributions are.
In this sense, I'm wondering what is the generalization of
Wilcoxon's
test to more than two distributions. And, more general, what is the
generalization of Wilcoxon's test to multi-way ANOVA with arbitrary
complex model formula? What are the equivalent F statistics and t
statistics in the generalization of Wilcoxon's test?
Note that I'm not interested in looking for a specific nonparametric
test for a particular dataset right now, although this is important
in
practice. What I'm interested the general nonparametric statistical
framework that parallels ANOVA. Could somebody give some hints on
what
references I should look for? I have google searched this topic, but
don't find a page that exactly answered my question.
This is your first of three postings in the last hour and they are
all
in a category that could well be described as requests for tutoring
in
basic statistical topics. I am of the impression you have been
requested not to engage in such behavior on this list. For this
question for instance there is an entire CRAN Task View available and
you have been in particular asked to sue such resource before posting.
It's not the described role of the r-help list to remediate your lack
of statistical background, but rather to deal with difficulties in
applying the R-language to particular, discrete and exemplified
problems.
--
David Winsemius, MD
West Hartford, CT
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list
PLEASE do read the posting guide
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide
http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide
http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
--
Frank E Harrell Jr Professor and ChairmanSchool of Medicine
Department of Biostatistics Vanderbilt University
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Confidentiality Statement:
This email message, including any attachments, is for th...{{dropped:6}}
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
need to see real names and real affiliations.
r-help is starting to border on uselessness because of the age old
problem
of the same question being asked every two days, a high frequency of
specialty questions, and answers given with the best of intentions in
incremental or contradictory e-mail pieces (as opposed to a cumulative
wiki or hierarchically designed discussion web forum), as there is no
moderator for the list. We don't need even more traffic from anonymous
postings.
Frank
On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 10:55 AM, Ravi Varadhan rvarad...@jhmi.edu
wrote:
David,
I agree with your sentiments. I also think that it is bad posting
etiquette not to sign one's genuine name and affiliation when asking
for
help, which blue sky seems to do a lot. Bert Gunter has already
raised this issue, and I completely agree with him. I would also like
to
urge the R-gurus to ignore such postings.
Best,
Ravi.
Ravi Varadhan, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor,
Division of Geriatric Medicine and Gerontology
School of Medicine
Johns Hopkins University
Ph. (410) 502-2619
email: rvarad...@jhmi.edu
- Original Message -
From: David Winsemius dwinsem...@comcast.net
Date: Friday, March 5, 2010 9:25 am
Subject: Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
To: blue sky bluesky...@gmail.com
Cc: r-h...@stat.math.ethz.ch
On Mar 5, 2010, at 8:19 AM, blue sky wrote:
My interpretation of the relation between 1-way ANOVA and
Wilcoxon's
test (wilcox.test() in R) is the following.
1-way ANOVA is to test if two or multiple distributions are the
same,
assuming all the distributions are normal and have equal variances.
Wilcoxon's test is to test two distributions are the same without
assuming what their distributions are.
In this sense, I'm wondering what is the generalization of
Wilcoxon's
test to more than two distributions. And, more general, what is the
generalization of Wilcoxon's test to multi-way ANOVA with arbitrary
complex model formula? What are the equivalent F statistics and t
statistics in the generalization of Wilcoxon's test?
Note that I'm not interested in looking for a specific
nonparametric
test for a particular dataset right now, although this is important
in
practice. What I'm interested the general nonparametric statistical
framework that parallels ANOVA. Could somebody give some hints on
what
references I should look for? I have google searched this topic,
but
don't find a page that exactly answered my question.
This is your first of three postings in the last hour and they are
all
in a category that could well be described as requests for tutoring
in
basic statistical topics. I am of the impression you have been
requested not to engage in such behavior on this list. For this
question for instance there is an entire CRAN Task View available and
you have been in particular asked to sue such resource before
posting.
It's not the described role of the r-help list to remediate your lack
of statistical background, but rather to deal with difficulties in
applying the R-language to particular, discrete and exemplified
problems.
--
David Winsemius, MD
West Hartford, CT
__
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--
Frank E Harrell Jr Professor and ChairmanSchool of Medicine
Department of Biostatistics Vanderbilt University
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Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
an uncountable number of people who are empowered to moderate i.e. all of us. In other words its up to the responders to moderate. The posting guide is our guide. As a last resort we can alert the list administrator (which I believe is the correct name for him in that role), who has powers to remove an email address from the list if he thinks that is appropriate, or act otherwise, or not at all. It is actually up to responders (i.e. all of us) to ensure the posting guide is followed. My view is that the problems started with some responders on some occasions. They sometimes forgot, a little bit, to encourage and remind posters to follow the posting guide when it was not followed. This then may have encouraged more posters to think it was ok not to follow the posting guide. That is my own personal view, not a statistical one backed up by any evidence. Matthew Frank E Harrell Jr f.harr...@vanderbilt.edu wrote in message news:4b913880.9020...@vanderbilt.edu... Gabor Grothendieck wrote: I am happy to answer posts to r-help regardless of the name and email address of the poster but would draw the line at someone excessively posting without a reasonable effort to find the answer first or using it for homework since such requests could flood the list making it useless for everyone. Gabor I respectfully disagree. It is bad practice to allow anonymous postings. We need to see real names and real affiliations. r-help is starting to border on uselessness because of the age old problem of the same question being asked every two days, a high frequency of specialty questions, and answers given with the best of intentions in incremental or contradictory e-mail pieces (as opposed to a cumulative wiki or hierarchically designed discussion web forum), as there is no moderator for the list. We don't need even more traffic from anonymous postings. Frank On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 10:55 AM, Ravi Varadhan rvarad...@jhmi.edu wrote: David, I agree with your sentiments. I also think that it is bad posting etiquette not to sign one's genuine name and affiliation when asking for help, which blue sky seems to do a lot. Bert Gunter has already raised this issue, and I completely agree with him. I would also like to urge the R-gurus to ignore such postings. Best, Ravi. Ravi Varadhan, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Division of Geriatric Medicine and Gerontology School of Medicine Johns Hopkins University Ph. (410) 502-2619 email: rvarad...@jhmi.edu - Original Message - From: David Winsemius dwinsem...@comcast.net Date: Friday, March 5, 2010 9:25 am Subject: Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA To: blue sky bluesky...@gmail.com Cc: r-h...@stat.math.ethz.ch On Mar 5, 2010, at 8:19 AM, blue sky wrote: My interpretation of the relation between 1-way ANOVA and Wilcoxon's test (wilcox.test() in R) is the following. 1-way ANOVA is to test if two or multiple distributions are the same, assuming all the distributions are normal and have equal variances. Wilcoxon's test is to test two distributions are the same without assuming what their distributions are. In this sense, I'm wondering what is the generalization of Wilcoxon's test to more than two distributions. And, more general, what is the generalization of Wilcoxon's test to multi-way ANOVA with arbitrary complex model formula? What are the equivalent F statistics and t statistics in the generalization of Wilcoxon's test? Note that I'm not interested in looking for a specific nonparametric test for a particular dataset right now, although this is important in practice. What I'm interested the general nonparametric statistical framework that parallels ANOVA. Could somebody give some hints on what references I should look for? I have google searched this topic, but don't find a page that exactly answered my question. This is your first of three postings in the last hour and they are all in a category that could well be described as requests for tutoring in basic statistical topics. I am of the impression you have been requested not to engage in such behavior on this list. For this question for instance there is an entire CRAN Task View available and you have been in particular asked to sue such resource before posting. It's not the described role of the r-help list to remediate your lack of statistical background, but rather to deal with difficulties in applying the R-language to particular, discrete and exemplified problems. -- David Winsemius, MD West Hartford, CT __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list PLEASE do read the posting guide and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code
Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
Matthew Dowle wrote: John, So you want BlueSky to change their name to Paul Smith at New York University, just to give a totally random, false name, example, and then you will be happy ? I just picked a popular, real name at a real, big place. Are you, or is anyone else, going to check its real ? Matthew that is poorly stated. We want real names backed up by affiliations that if anyone wanted to check they could. It is just common courtesy, and helps some of us feel good about helping others. Frank We want BlueSky to ask great questions, which haven't been asked before, and to follow the posting guide. If BlueSky improves the knowledge base whats the problem? This person may well be breaking the posting guide for many other reasons (I haven't looked), and if they are then you could take issue with them on those points, but not for simply writing as BlueSky. David W has got it right when he replied to ManInMoon. Shall we stop this thread now, and follow his lead ? I would have picked ManOnMoon myself but maybe that one was taken. Its rather difficult to be on a moon, let alone inside it. Matthew -- Frank E Harrell Jr Professor and ChairmanSchool of Medicine Department of Biostatistics Vanderbilt University __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
.
Ravi Varadhan, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor,
Division of Geriatric Medicine and Gerontology
School of Medicine
Johns Hopkins University
Ph. (410) 502-2619
email: rvarad...@jhmi.edu
- Original Message -
From: David Winsemius dwinsem...@comcast.net
Date: Friday, March 5, 2010 9:25 am
Subject: Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
To: blue sky bluesky...@gmail.com
Cc: r-h...@stat.math.ethz.ch
On Mar 5, 2010, at 8:19 AM, blue sky wrote:
My interpretation of the relation between 1-way ANOVA and Wilcoxon's
test (wilcox.test() in R) is the following.
1-way ANOVA is to test if two or multiple distributions are the
same,
assuming all the distributions are normal and have equal variances.
Wilcoxon's test is to test two distributions are the same without
assuming what their distributions are.
In this sense, I'm wondering what is the generalization of
Wilcoxon's
test to more than two distributions. And, more general, what is the
generalization of Wilcoxon's test to multi-way ANOVA with arbitrary
complex model formula? What are the equivalent F statistics and t
statistics in the generalization of Wilcoxon's test?
Note that I'm not interested in looking for a specific nonparametric
test for a particular dataset right now, although this is important
in
practice. What I'm interested the general nonparametric statistical
framework that parallels ANOVA. Could somebody give some hints on
what
references I should look for? I have google searched this topic, but
don't find a page that exactly answered my question.
This is your first of three postings in the last hour and they are
all
in a category that could well be described as requests for tutoring
in
basic statistical topics. I am of the impression you have been
requested not to engage in such behavior on this list. For this
question for instance there is an entire CRAN Task View available and
you have been in particular asked to sue such resource before posting.
It's not the described role of the r-help list to remediate your lack
of statistical background, but rather to deal with difficulties in
applying the R-language to particular, discrete and exemplified
problems.
--
David Winsemius, MD
West Hartford, CT
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list
PLEASE do read the posting guide
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide
http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide
http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
--
Frank E Harrell Jr Professor and ChairmanSchool of Medicine
Department of Biostatistics Vanderbilt University
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list
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PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Confidentiality Statement:
This email message, including any attachments, is for t...{{dropped:17}}
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list
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PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
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Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
blue sky bluesky315 at gmail.com writes: I almost certainly shouldn't feed the trolls, but: 1. ?kruskal.test (listed in see also in ?wilcox.test) 2. One of the disadvantages of nonparametric tests is that it is in general difficult to generalize them to analogues of arbitrarily complex linear mixed models. 3. You might look for multi-reponse permutation procedures (MRPP). __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Gabor Grothendieck ggrothendi...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Matthew Dowle mdo...@mdowle.plus.com wrote: As far as I know you are wrong that there is no moderator. There are in fact an uncountable number of people who are empowered to moderate i.e. all of us. In other words its up to the responders to moderate. The posting I think moderator is being used in the sense of a person who receives posts before they become public and allows or disallows each post. Using that definition there is no moderator. Not quite. Postings from those subscribed to the list, with one exception, are passed to the list without being held for moderator approval. Postings from those not subscribed are held for moderator approval. The one exception is Peng Yu pengyu...@gmail.com who, a few months ago, flooded the list with queries not unlike those from ol' Blue Sky and was sufficiently argumentative that he even wore down the patience of Martin Maechler. As a result, he was sanctioned by having his postings held for moderator approval. This is not a terrible sanction because there are many people who can approve postings so this is done fairly rapidly. (By the way, I say he and his because the .ut in the email address leads me to believe that the email belongs to this person, www.cerc.utexas.edu/~yupeng/, who seems recently to have developed an interest in Statistics and Bioinformatics.) If you look at the history of postings by Peng Yu and by Blue Sky you will see that the postings by Blue Sky started around the time that Peng Yu was sanctioned. Indeed the headers from some of the early postings indicate that they were posted on behalf of the email address pengu...@gmail.com (although current postings do not). Unfortunately email lists like R-help are, like any public resource, subject to the Tragedy of the commons phenomenon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons). __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA
guide as far as my eyes read it. It says only that the email address should work. I would also answer such anonymous posts, providing they demonstrate they made best efforts to follow the posting guide, as usual for all requests for help. Its so easy to send from a false, but apparently real name, why worry about that? If you disagree with the posting guide then you could make a suggestion to get the posting guide changed with respect to these points. But, currently, good and practice is defined by the posting guide, and I can't see that your view is backed up by it. In fact it seems to me that these points were carefully considered, and the wording is careful on these points. As far as I know you are wrong that there is no moderator. There are in fact an uncountable number of people who are empowered to moderate i.e. all of us. In other words its up to the responders to moderate. The posting guide is our guide. As a last resort we can alert the list administrator (which I believe is the correct name for him in that role), who has powers to remove an email address from the list if he thinks that is appropriate, or act otherwise, or not at all. It is actually up to responders (i.e. all of us) to ensure the posting guide is followed. My view is that the problems started with some responders on some occasions. They sometimes forgot, a little bit, to encourage and remind posters to follow the posting guide when it was not followed. This then may have encouraged more posters to think it was ok not to follow the posting guide. That is my own personal view, not a statistical one backed up by any evidence. Matthew Frank E Harrell Jr f.harr...@vanderbilt.edu wrote in message news:4b913880.9020...@vanderbilt.edu... Gabor Grothendieck wrote: I am happy to answer posts to r-help regardless of the name and email address of the poster but would draw the line at someone excessively posting without a reasonable effort to find the answer first or using it for homework since such requests could flood the list making it useless for everyone. Gabor I respectfully disagree. It is bad practice to allow anonymous postings. We need to see real names and real affiliations. r-help is starting to border on uselessness because of the age old problem of the same question being asked every two days, a high frequency of specialty questions, and answers given with the best of intentions in incremental or contradictory e-mail pieces (as opposed to a cumulative wiki or hierarchically designed discussion web forum), as there is no moderator for the list. We don't need even more traffic from anonymous postings. Frank On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 10:55 AM, Ravi Varadhan rvarad...@jhmi.edu wrote: David, I agree with your sentiments. I also think that it is bad posting etiquette not to sign one's genuine name and affiliation when asking for help, which blue sky seems to do a lot. Bert Gunter has already raised this issue, and I completely agree with him. I would also like to urge the R-gurus to ignore such postings. Best, Ravi. Ravi Varadhan, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Division of Geriatric Medicine and Gerontology School of Medicine Johns Hopkins University Ph. (410) 502-2619 email: rvarad...@jhmi.edu - Original Message - From: David Winsemius dwinsem...@comcast.net Date: Friday, March 5, 2010 9:25 am Subject: Re: [R] Nonparametric generalization of ANOVA To: blue sky bluesky...@gmail.com Cc: r-h...@stat.math.ethz.ch On Mar 5, 2010, at 8:19 AM, blue sky wrote: My interpretation of the relation between 1-way ANOVA and Wilcoxon's test (wilcox.test() in R) is the following. 1-way ANOVA is to test if two or multiple distributions are the same, assuming all the distributions are normal and have equal variances. Wilcoxon's test is to test two distributions are the same without assuming what their distributions are. In this sense, I'm wondering what is the generalization of Wilcoxon's test to more than two distributions. And, more general, what is the generalization of Wilcoxon's test to multi-way ANOVA with arbitrary complex model formula? What are the equivalent F statistics and t statistics in the generalization of Wilcoxon's test? Note that I'm not interested in looking for a specific nonparametric test for a particular dataset right now, although this is important in practice. What I'm interested the general nonparametric statistical framework that parallels ANOVA. Could somebody give some hints on what references I should look for? I have google searched this topic, but don't find
