Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
How about sending an email to the OP with a message like: Hi, Thanks for submitting a question to the R-help list. We hope you did read the Posting Guide and submitted a reproducible example of your code (by the use of dput, structure, ...). Then there is no need to add the message to the end of every message so that most of the people automatically skip reading the end of every message (at least I do) Just my 2 cents Bart -- View this message in context: http://r.789695.n4.nabble.com/On-Reproducible-Code-tp4637796p4638513.html Sent from the R help mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
Hadley, Thank you for posting this. I think the danger is that novices (and I'm not far removed from that category) can be intimidated by R, but more so by R experts that make people AFRAID to ask questions. The danger is that these intimidating R experts could turn people away from using R; at the very least, novices could end up wasting valuable time trying to complete their projects because they can't get the help they are searching for. Nothing is gained by punishing people over their internet 'manners' Tom On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Hadley Wickham had...@rice.edu wrote: That assumes: * Everyone reads the mailing list before making the first posting * Everyone reads every part of every email. I'd argue that both assumptions are false. People are particular well trained to skip over boilerplate text at the bottom of emails. I'd suggest an alternative approach is for experts to remember what it's like to be a novice, and cultivate an attitude of patience and tolerance. That's about as likely to happen as a mass change in behaviour in new users. Hadley On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:48 AM, John Kane jrkrid...@inbox.com wrote: I'd vote for that! It would probably bug the blazes out of experienced users but the time savings in getting a newbie to actually supply enough information so that someone can, at least, try to answer the question would be well worth it. John Kane Kingston ON Canada -Original Message- From: gunter.ber...@gene.com Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 07:49:28 -0700 To: jrkrid...@inbox.com Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code I agree and would like to see it placed at the **TOP** of every post. -- Bert On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:11 AM, John Kane jrkrid...@inbox.com wrote: -Original Message- From: j...@bitwrit.com.au Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:21:36 +1000 To: dcarl...@tamu.edu Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote: We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not reading it. ... I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using dput(). The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the reproducible code answers. Some, such as: I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!! probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like dput, it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the way to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am particularly amused by the phrase reproducible code, which sounds perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read: Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough data (see the dput function) for someone else to run the code and get the same problem. I can remember when I didn't know that there was a dput function. Jim I can remember spending a lot of time constructing a data set to post before someone mentioned ?dput. Ah, yes, I still have a couple of generic ones archived. I think your wording above makes a lot of sense. GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys Works with AIM®, MSN® Messenger, Yahoo!® Messenger, ICQ®, Google Talk and most webmails __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- Bert Gunter Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics Internal Contact Info: Phone: 467-7374 Website: http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- Assistant Professor / Dobelman Family Junior Chair Department of Statistics / Rice University http://had.co.nz/ __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained
Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
On Jul 30, 2012, at 13:05 , Thomas Adams wrote: Nothing is gained by punishing people over their internet 'manners'∑ Tom On the contrary, everything can be lost by allowing abusers to persevere! (And yes, there are people who no longer attempt to help, because of ungrateful and downright arrogant behavior they have experienced on the lists.) -- Peter Dalgaard, Professor, Center for Statistics, Copenhagen Business School Solbjerg Plads 3, 2000 Frederiksberg, Denmark Phone: (+45)38153501 Email: pd@cbs.dk Priv: pda...@gmail.com __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
Peter, You may have misunderstood me (I did not define correctly whose internet manners I was referring to) â I was referring to the internet manners of those seeking help, that, yes, they may not have adequately researched things before asking a question, or may not have supplied a reproducible example, etc., but they don't deserve to be treated disrespectfully â I think we are agreeing on this⦠Tom On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 8:02 AM, peter dalgaard pda...@gmail.com wrote: On Jul 30, 2012, at 13:05 , Thomas Adams wrote: Nothing is gained by punishing people over their internet 'manners'â Tom On the contrary, everything can be lost by allowing abusers to persevere! (And yes, there are people who no longer attempt to help, because of ungrateful and downright arrogant behavior they have experienced on the lists.) -- Peter Dalgaard, Professor, Center for Statistics, Copenhagen Business School Solbjerg Plads 3, 2000 Frederiksberg, Denmark Phone: (+45)38153501 Email: pd@cbs.dk Priv: pda...@gmail.com -- Thomas E Adams National Weather Service Ohio River Forecast Center 1901 South State Route 134 Wilmington, OH 45177 EMAIL: thomas.ad...@noaa.gov VOICE: 937-383-0528 FAX:937-383-0033 [[alternative HTML version deleted]] __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote: We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not reading it. ... I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using dput(). The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the reproducible code answers. Some, such as: I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!! probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like dput, it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the way to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am particularly amused by the phrase reproducible code, which sounds perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read: Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough data (see the dput function) for someone else to run the code and get the same problem. I can remember when I didn't know that there was a dput function. Jim __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
-Original Message- From: j...@bitwrit.com.au Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:21:36 +1000 To: dcarl...@tamu.edu Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote: We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not reading it. ... I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using dput(). The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the reproducible code answers. Some, such as: I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!! probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like dput, it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the way to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am particularly amused by the phrase reproducible code, which sounds perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read: Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough data (see the dput function) for someone else to run the code and get the same problem. I can remember when I didn't know that there was a dput function. Jim I can remember spending a lot of time constructing a data set to post before someone mentioned ?dput. Ah, yes, I still have a couple of generic ones archived. I think your wording above makes a lot of sense. GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys Works with AIM®, MSN® Messenger, Yahoo!® Messenger, ICQ®, Google Talk™ and most webmails __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
I agree and would like to see it placed at the **TOP** of every post. -- Bert On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:11 AM, John Kane jrkrid...@inbox.com wrote: -Original Message- From: j...@bitwrit.com.au Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:21:36 +1000 To: dcarl...@tamu.edu Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote: We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not reading it. ... I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using dput(). The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the reproducible code answers. Some, such as: I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!! probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like dput, it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the way to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am particularly amused by the phrase reproducible code, which sounds perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read: Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough data (see the dput function) for someone else to run the code and get the same problem. I can remember when I didn't know that there was a dput function. Jim I can remember spending a lot of time constructing a data set to post before someone mentioned ?dput. Ah, yes, I still have a couple of generic ones archived. I think your wording above makes a lot of sense. GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys Works with AIM®, MSN® Messenger, Yahoo!® Messenger, ICQ®, Google Talk™ and most webmails __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- Bert Gunter Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics Internal Contact Info: Phone: 467-7374 Website: http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
I'd vote for that! It would probably bug the blazes out of experienced users but the time savings in getting a newbie to actually supply enough information so that someone can, at least, try to answer the question would be well worth it. John Kane Kingston ON Canada -Original Message- From: gunter.ber...@gene.com Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 07:49:28 -0700 To: jrkrid...@inbox.com Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code I agree and would like to see it placed at the **TOP** of every post. -- Bert On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:11 AM, John Kane jrkrid...@inbox.com wrote: -Original Message- From: j...@bitwrit.com.au Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:21:36 +1000 To: dcarl...@tamu.edu Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote: We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not reading it. ... I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using dput(). The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the reproducible code answers. Some, such as: I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!! probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like dput, it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the way to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am particularly amused by the phrase reproducible code, which sounds perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read: Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough data (see the dput function) for someone else to run the code and get the same problem. I can remember when I didn't know that there was a dput function. Jim I can remember spending a lot of time constructing a data set to post before someone mentioned ?dput. Ah, yes, I still have a couple of generic ones archived. I think your wording above makes a lot of sense. GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys Works with AIM®, MSN® Messenger, Yahoo!® Messenger, ICQ®, Google Talk™ and most webmails __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- Bert Gunter Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics Internal Contact Info: Phone: 467-7374 Website: http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
That assumes: * Everyone reads the mailing list before making the first posting * Everyone reads every part of every email. I'd argue that both assumptions are false. People are particular well trained to skip over boilerplate text at the bottom of emails. I'd suggest an alternative approach is for experts to remember what it's like to be a novice, and cultivate an attitude of patience and tolerance. That's about as likely to happen as a mass change in behaviour in new users. Hadley On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:48 AM, John Kane jrkrid...@inbox.com wrote: I'd vote for that! It would probably bug the blazes out of experienced users but the time savings in getting a newbie to actually supply enough information so that someone can, at least, try to answer the question would be well worth it. John Kane Kingston ON Canada -Original Message- From: gunter.ber...@gene.com Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 07:49:28 -0700 To: jrkrid...@inbox.com Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code I agree and would like to see it placed at the **TOP** of every post. -- Bert On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:11 AM, John Kane jrkrid...@inbox.com wrote: -Original Message- From: j...@bitwrit.com.au Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:21:36 +1000 To: dcarl...@tamu.edu Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote: We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not reading it. ... I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using dput(). The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the reproducible code answers. Some, such as: I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!! probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like dput, it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the way to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am particularly amused by the phrase reproducible code, which sounds perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read: Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough data (see the dput function) for someone else to run the code and get the same problem. I can remember when I didn't know that there was a dput function. Jim I can remember spending a lot of time constructing a data set to post before someone mentioned ?dput. Ah, yes, I still have a couple of generic ones archived. I think your wording above makes a lot of sense. GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys Works with AIM®, MSN® Messenger, Yahoo!® Messenger, ICQ®, Google Talk™ and most webmails __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- Bert Gunter Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics Internal Contact Info: Phone: 467-7374 Website: http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- Assistant Professor / Dobelman Family Junior Chair Department of Statistics / Rice University http://had.co.nz/ __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
Hello, I agree with you. That's why I've proposed an itemized text. I want my VCR manual to give me point by point instructions, not to give me a clear and brief discourse on exactly what to do. And, though without access to VCR manufacturers' data tables, I'm with the impression that their way works. Users, seen as a mass, adopt the habit of reading the literature. Rui Barradas Em 27-07-2012 18:47, Hadley Wickham escreveu: That assumes: * Everyone reads the mailing list before making the first posting * Everyone reads every part of every email. I'd argue that both assumptions are false. People are particular well trained to skip over boilerplate text at the bottom of emails. I'd suggest an alternative approach is for experts to remember what it's like to be a novice, and cultivate an attitude of patience and tolerance. That's about as likely to happen as a mass change in behaviour in new users. Hadley On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:48 AM, John Kane jrkrid...@inbox.com wrote: I'd vote for that! It would probably bug the blazes out of experienced users but the time savings in getting a newbie to actually supply enough information so that someone can, at least, try to answer the question would be well worth it. John Kane Kingston ON Canada -Original Message- From: gunter.ber...@gene.com Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 07:49:28 -0700 To: jrkrid...@inbox.com Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code I agree and would like to see it placed at the **TOP** of every post. -- Bert On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:11 AM, John Kane jrkrid...@inbox.com wrote: -Original Message- From: j...@bitwrit.com.au Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:21:36 +1000 To: dcarl...@tamu.edu Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote: We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not reading it. ... I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using dput(). The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the reproducible code answers. Some, such as: I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!! probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like dput, it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the way to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am particularly amused by the phrase reproducible code, which sounds perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read: Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough data (see the dput function) for someone else to run the code and get the same problem. I can remember when I didn't know that there was a dput function. Jim I can remember spending a lot of time constructing a data set to post before someone mentioned ?dput. Ah, yes, I still have a couple of generic ones archived. I think your wording above makes a lot of sense. GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys Works with AIM®, MSN® Messenger, Yahoo!® Messenger, ICQ®, Google Talk™ and most webmails __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- Bert Gunter Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics Internal Contact Info: Phone: 467-7374 Website: http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
I would like to be able to refer briefly to longer explanations such as the stackoverflow article on reproducible examples rather than patiently rewrite such explanations. A posting guide with more specific recommendations would make it easier to be patient. --- Jeff NewmillerThe . . Go Live... DCN:jdnew...@dcn.davis.ca.usBasics: ##.#. ##.#. Live Go... Live: OO#.. Dead: OO#.. Playing Research Engineer (Solar/BatteriesO.O#. #.O#. with /Software/Embedded Controllers) .OO#. .OO#. rocks...1k --- Sent from my phone. Please excuse my brevity. Hadley Wickham had...@rice.edu wrote: That assumes: * Everyone reads the mailing list before making the first posting * Everyone reads every part of every email. I'd argue that both assumptions are false. People are particular well trained to skip over boilerplate text at the bottom of emails. I'd suggest an alternative approach is for experts to remember what it's like to be a novice, and cultivate an attitude of patience and tolerance. That's about as likely to happen as a mass change in behaviour in new users. Hadley On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:48 AM, John Kane jrkrid...@inbox.com wrote: I'd vote for that! It would probably bug the blazes out of experienced users but the time savings in getting a newbie to actually supply enough information so that someone can, at least, try to answer the question would be well worth it. John Kane Kingston ON Canada -Original Message- From: gunter.ber...@gene.com Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 07:49:28 -0700 To: jrkrid...@inbox.com Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code I agree and would like to see it placed at the **TOP** of every post. -- Bert On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:11 AM, John Kane jrkrid...@inbox.com wrote: -Original Message- From: j...@bitwrit.com.au Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:21:36 +1000 To: dcarl...@tamu.edu Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote: We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not reading it. ... I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using dput(). The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the reproducible code answers. Some, such as: I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!! probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like dput, it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the way to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am particularly amused by the phrase reproducible code, which sounds perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read: Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough data (see the dput function) for someone else to run the code and get the same problem. I can remember when I didn't know that there was a dput function. Jim I can remember spending a lot of time constructing a data set to post before someone mentioned ?dput. Ah, yes, I still have a couple of generic ones archived. I think your wording above makes a lot of sense. GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys Works with AIM®, MSN® Messenger, Yahoo!® Messenger, ICQ®, Google Talk™ and most webmails __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- Bert Gunter Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics Internal Contact Info: Phone: 467-7374 Website: http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- Assistant Professor / Dobelman Family Junior Chair Department of Statistics / Rice University http://had.co.nz/ __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch
Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Hadley Wickham had...@rice.edu wrote: That assumes: * Everyone reads the mailing list before making the first posting * Everyone reads every part of every email. I'd argue that both assumptions are false. People are particular well trained to skip over boilerplate text at the bottom of emails. -- which is why I suggested that Jim Lemon's brief version go at the top. There's obviously no magic bullet. We're in the realm of social psychology, I guess, here, so I certainly don't have much insight. But I think the experiment is easy and worth trying. -- Bert I'd suggest an alternative approach is for experts to remember what it's like to be a novice, and cultivate an attitude of patience and tolerance. That's about as likely to happen as a mass change in behaviour in new users. Hadley On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:48 AM, John Kane jrkrid...@inbox.com wrote: I'd vote for that! It would probably bug the blazes out of experienced users but the time savings in getting a newbie to actually supply enough information so that someone can, at least, try to answer the question would be well worth it. John Kane Kingston ON Canada -Original Message- From: gunter.ber...@gene.com Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 07:49:28 -0700 To: jrkrid...@inbox.com Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code I agree and would like to see it placed at the **TOP** of every post. -- Bert On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:11 AM, John Kane jrkrid...@inbox.com wrote: -Original Message- From: j...@bitwrit.com.au Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:21:36 +1000 To: dcarl...@tamu.edu Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote: We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not reading it. ... I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using dput(). The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the reproducible code answers. Some, such as: I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!! probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like dput, it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the way to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am particularly amused by the phrase reproducible code, which sounds perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read: Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough data (see the dput function) for someone else to run the code and get the same problem. I can remember when I didn't know that there was a dput function. Jim I can remember spending a lot of time constructing a data set to post before someone mentioned ?dput. Ah, yes, I still have a couple of generic ones archived. I think your wording above makes a lot of sense. GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys Works with AIM®, MSN® Messenger, Yahoo!® Messenger, ICQ®, Google Talk™ and most webmails __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- Bert Gunter Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics Internal Contact Info: Phone: 467-7374 Website: http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- Assistant Professor / Dobelman Family Junior Chair Department of Statistics / Rice University http://had.co.nz/ -- Bert Gunter Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics Internal Contact Info: Phone: 467-7374 Website: http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Hadley Wickham had...@rice.edu wrote: I'd argue that both assumptions are false. People are particular well trained to skip over boilerplate text at the bottom of emails. One day the list owner will subtly change the boilerplate text at the bottom of R-help emails and nobody will notice. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and give the list maintainer all your money and jewels and nobody will get hurt. -- blog: http://geospaced.blogspot.com/ web: http://www.maths.lancs.ac.uk/~rowlings web: http://www.rowlingson.com/ twitter: http://twitter.com/geospacedman pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/spacedman __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
Yes I agree. Regards, Yihui -- Yihui Xie xieyi...@gmail.com Phone: 515-294-2465 Web: http://yihui.name Department of Statistics, Iowa State University 2215 Snedecor Hall, Ames, IA On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Barry Rowlingson b.rowling...@lancaster.ac.uk wrote: On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Hadley Wickham had...@rice.edu wrote: I'd argue that both assumptions are false. People are particular well trained to skip over boilerplate text at the bottom of emails. One day the list owner will subtly change the boilerplate text at the bottom of R-help emails and nobody will notice. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and give the list maintainer all your money and jewels and nobody will get hurt. -- blog: http://geospaced.blogspot.com/ web: http://www.maths.lancs.ac.uk/~rowlings web: http://www.rowlingson.com/ twitter: http://twitter.com/geospacedman pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/spacedman __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do not read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide uncommented, maximal, not self-contained, non-reproducible code. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
-Original Message- From: b.rowling...@lancaster.ac.uk Sent: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 00:01:14 +0100 To: had...@rice.edu Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Hadley Wickham had...@rice.edu wrote: I'd argue that both assumptions are false. People are particular well trained to skip over boilerplate text at the bottom of emails. One day the list owner will subtly change the boilerplate text at the bottom of R-help emails and nobody will notice. Not 1 necessarily so. I glance at it occasionally while deleting it. John Kane Kingston ON Canada __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and give the list maintainer all your money and jewels and nobody will get hurt. -- blog: http://geospaced.blogspot.com/ web: http://www.maths.lancs.ac.uk/~rowlings web: http://www.rowlingson.com/ twitter: http://twitter.com/geospacedman pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/spacedman FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks orcas on your desktop! __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:50 AM, David L Carlson dcarl...@tamu.edu wrote: We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not reading it. Recently I had occasion to re-read the Posting Guide which is for all R lists not just R-help. The word reproducible does not appear anywhere in the guide. The closest it comes is the following suggestion: Sometimes it helps to provide a small example that someone can actually run. Recommendations to use the function dput() to provide sample data do not appear in the guide. The bottom of messages to R-help does contain the statement you've all seen, but I had assumed it summarized advice found elsewhere since first time posters may not see the message until after they have posted. PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. The Mailing Lists page describes R-help but refers only to the posting guide http://www.r-project.org/mail.html and does not include this advisory statement. The R-help Info Page also refers only to the posting guide https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help and does not include this advisory statement. I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using dput(). -- David L Carlson Associate Professor of Anthropology Texas AM University College Station, TX 77843-4352 __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. I agree that the posting guide is not ideal. On the other hand, the last line of every message to r-help does concisely list what is required. -- Statistics Software Consulting GKX Group, GKX Associates Inc. tel: 1-877-GKX-GROUP email: ggrothendieck at gmail.com __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
PLEASE provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. Whenever possible, provide a small example that can be easily loaded and run to illustrate your problem. The R function dput() should generally be used to do this. For a more complete discussion of how to post queries that will yield accurate, helpful responses, refer to the posting guide at http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html. * I agree. Perhaps slightly modifying the message and moving it to the top as I have done here (please feel free to edit as appropriate) would be useful. This might have the psychological advantage of making it painfuly obvious to OP's and readers when they have not followed the recommendations. Might be worth a try and seems like something that would be easy to do. Cheers, Bert On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:50 AM, David L Carlson dcarl...@tamu.edu wrote: We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not reading it. Recently I had occasion to re-read the Posting Guide which is for all R lists not just R-help. The word reproducible does not appear anywhere in the guide. The closest it comes is the following suggestion: Sometimes it helps to provide a small example that someone can actually run. Recommendations to use the function dput() to provide sample data do not appear in the guide. The bottom of messages to R-help does contain the statement you've all seen, but I had assumed it summarized advice found elsewhere since first time posters may not see the message until after they have posted. PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. The Mailing Lists page describes R-help but refers only to the posting guide http://www.r-project.org/mail.html and does not include this advisory statement. The R-help Info Page also refers only to the posting guide https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help and does not include this advisory statement. I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using dput(). -- David L Carlson Associate Professor of Anthropology Texas AM University College Station, TX 77843-4352 __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- Bert Gunter Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics Internal Contact Info: Phone: 467-7374 Website: http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:25 PM, Bert Gunter gunter.ber...@gene.com wrote: PLEASE provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. Whenever possible, provide a small example that can be easily loaded and run to illustrate your problem. The R function dput() should generally be used to do this. For a more complete discussion of how to post queries that will yield accurate, helpful responses, refer to the posting guide at http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html. * I agree. Perhaps slightly modifying the message and moving it to the top as I have done here (please feel free to edit as appropriate) would be useful. This might have the psychological advantage of making it painfuly obvious to OP's and readers when they have not followed the recommendations. The one line summary at the end is better than the posting guide. It tells you right off what to do in just one line. On the other hand realistically few are going to wade through the posting guide.. Its better to keep the one line summary at the end since that is the best bet that someone will actually read some guidance on how to post. -- Statistics Software Consulting GKX Group, GKX Associates Inc. tel: 1-877-GKX-GROUP email: ggrothendieck at gmail.com __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
Hello,
This does not mean that the posting guide is useless. Nor that it
couldn't or shouldn't be changed.
I would say shouldn't because there's a clear call to reproducible
code in another part of R, the man files created by package.skeleton:
\examples{
## Should be DIRECTLY executable !!
##-- == Define data, use random,
##--or do help(data=index) for the standard data sets.
So maybe some of the posting guide should be more clear and concise.
Simple rules at the beginning, itemized or enumerated.
(And keep that end line.)
Rui Barradas
Em 25-07-2012 17:44, Gabor Grothendieck escreveu:
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:25 PM, Bert Gunter gunter.ber...@gene.com wrote:
PLEASE provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Whenever possible, provide a small example that can be easily loaded
and run to illustrate your problem. The R function dput() should
generally be used to do this.
For a more complete discussion of how to post queries that will yield
accurate, helpful responses, refer to the posting guide at
http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html.
*
I agree. Perhaps slightly modifying the message and moving it to the
top as I have done here (please feel free to edit as appropriate)
would be useful. This might have the psychological advantage of making
it painfuly obvious to OP's and readers when they have not followed
the recommendations.
The one line summary at the end is better than the posting guide. It
tells you right off what to do in just one line.
On the other hand realistically few are going to wade through the
posting guide.. Its better to keep the one line summary at the end
since that is the best bet that someone will actually read some
guidance on how to post.
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
On Jul 25, 2012, at 8:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote: We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not reading it. Recently I had occasion to re-read the Posting Guide which is for all R lists not just R-help. The word reproducible does not appear anywhere in the guide. The closest it comes is the following suggestion: Sometimes it helps to provide a small example that someone can actually run. Recommendations to use the function dput() to provide sample data do not appear in the guide. The absence of dput from the PG is a bit surprisong, but an equivalent bit of advice does appear: When providing examples, it is best to give an R command that constructs the data, as in the matrix() expression above. For more complicated data structures, dump(x, file=stdout()) will print an expression that will recreate the object x. -- David. The bottom of messages to R-help does contain the statement you've all seen, but I had assumed it summarized advice found elsewhere since first time posters may not see the message until after they have posted. PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. The Mailing Lists page describes R-help but refers only to the posting guide http://www.r-project.org/mail.html and does not include this advisory statement. The R-help Info Page also refers only to the posting guide https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help and does not include this advisory statement. I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using dput(). -- David L Carlson Associate Professor of Anthropology Texas AM University College Station, TX 77843-4352 __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. David Winsemius, MD Heritage Laboratories West Hartford, CT __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
