Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation
Hi Larry, I immediately assumed sulphated battery when I heard the customers description a couple of weeks ago but the hydrometer readings didn't jive. Any sulphated battery I've encountered, and I defer to your greater experience, has always revealed itself with a simple S.G. test and these batteries were reading above 1.265. I then thought the possibility of a defective hydrometer and had them test with another but we just got confirmation of the same thing. The weird drop in voltage also isn't explained by your description. Why would this just happen without loads or charging present (except maybe the DC Sunfrost load) at the same predictable time at 4 a.m. The fact that when the generator was turned on and sent a surge of current into the system and the problem went away made the detective in me think there had to be another explanation. The bank was at rest for several hours through the night and the voltage dropout was cured by a brief application of charge current. When I arrived on site my discovery that the client was under watering the batteries and this chronic condition resulted in a very rich electrolyte, reading well above 1.265 - into the 1.280 range made me think that was the problem and it seems to have gone away now that the electrolyte level was raised and the batteries given a good charge. But it still nags at me that something else is lurking in the shadows. Your description of the sulphate converting to a crystalline form has me worried because if this is the case this expensive battery bank is in danger. I would have to camp out at the site and monitor the charging over a day or so. I'm going to forward some of your comments and those of others that have generously offered suggestions and we'll see if I can convince the client who now believes everything is A-Ok. Best Regards, Ron Young earthRight Products - Solareagle.com Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products On 2011-10-22, at 12:06 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Hi Ron, As many on this list have suggested, it sounds like a sulfated battery condition. In your last message you revealed something to me that absolutely confirms this but perhaps you didn't recognize it. Battery voltage readings are deceiving because they do not indicate capacity. 25.7 volts sounds like a fully charged 24 volt bank, but is it? Only if the battery was at rest for 5-6 hours could you have some confidence that the bank was full at this voltage. But this is not the case because the bank is in daily use, always charging or discharging. However, there is one useful indication that voltage can be used for: detecting a sulfated battery. You mentioned that the the battery drops to 24.5 in the early AM without any heavy loads on. For the 4KS25 battery this equates to about 800AH at the 72 hour rate. Then you said that the customer ran a 2500 watt generator for 5 minutes and drove the voltage up to 29 volts. Here's the Ah-Ha moment: That is EXACTLY the behavior of a heavily sulfated battery bank. A fast rise in voltage indicates sulfation. It is impossible for that tiny generator, or any charge source they own for that matter, to replace the hundreds of AH it would take to drive a healthy battery up to the absorb voltage of 29 volts. The bank is about 45,000 watt hours (72h rate). There would have to be over 20,000 Wh removed to be at that voltage. How many Wh's are replaced in 5 minutes by a 2500 watt genny? I'm sure you are getting the picture. Why did this happen to these expensive batteries? Glad you asked. Battery plates are not uniformly efficient in the electrochemical process leaving some portions with lead sulfate even after 8 hours of charging. Unless these portions are cleared off regularly by achieving 100% SoC and occasional, thorough equalization, the amorphous sulfate will convert to a crystalline form and grow. 99% charge, if not corrected in time, will always cause premature battery failure. Undersized RE charging systems, or perhaps oversized batteries, is the culprit that contributes to this all too frequent phenomenon of chronic undercharging. I say contribute because there are other factors. Fact: it can take 10-12 hours to fully charge a lead acid battery. Fact: The time element of battery charging is a highly misunderstood part. With only a few daily sun-hours to work with, how do we get a battery charged with PV solar? Properly sizing the PV array to the battery AND consumption is critical. One method I think is essential for nearly all PV systems is use a generator and charger, appropriately sized to the battery. By bulk charging early in the AM you can reduce the finish time to perhaps 5-6 hours of constant voltage charging, something easily done with a PV system. Ron, you might be able to recover some capacity in this bank if the sulfate has not formed hard crystals by now.
Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation
Ron, You have made a connection that I would not have made, and while I may be wrong here, it has got me thinking. I have never equated low water level with SG, nor have I ever read in battery maintenance guides that I should maintain a particular water level before measuring SG. I'm not convinced that electrolyte level has any connection with measured SG, although it would seem logical on the surface. I have always thought that if the correct concentration of acid was installed at the factory and not lost thereafter (such as due to a spill or chronic overfilling), the SC is only a function of SOC. I'm interested in others' opinions here. Allan Positive Energy On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 1:49 AM, Ron Young solarea...@solareagle.comwrote: Hi Larry, I immediately assumed sulphated battery when I heard the customers description a couple of weeks ago but the hydrometer readings didn't jive. Any sulphated battery I've encountered, and I defer to your greater experience, has always revealed itself with a simple S.G. test and these batteries were reading above 1.265. I then thought the possibility of a defective hydrometer and had them test with another but we just got confirmation of the same thing. The weird drop in voltage also isn't explained by your description. Why would this just happen without loads or charging present (except maybe the DC Sunfrost load) at the same predictable time at 4 a.m. The fact that when the generator was turned on and sent a surge of current into the system and the problem went away made the detective in me think there had to be another explanation. The bank was at rest for several hours through the night and the voltage dropout was cured by a brief application of charge current. When I arrived on site my discovery that the client was under watering the batteries and this chronic condition resulted in a very rich electrolyte, reading well above 1.265 - into the 1.280 range made me think that was the problem and it seems to have gone away now that the electrolyte level was raised and the batteries given a good charge. But it still nags at me that something else is lurking in the shadows. Your description of the sulphate converting to a crystalline form has me worried because if this is the case this expensive battery bank is in danger. I would have to camp out at the site and monitor the charging over a day or so. I'm going to forward some of your comments and those of others that have generously offered suggestions and we'll see if I can convince the client who now believes everything is A-Ok. Best Regards, *Ron Young* earthRight Products - Solareagle.com Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products On 2011-10-22, at 12:06 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Hi Ron, As many on this list have suggested, it sounds like a sulfated battery condition. In your last message you revealed something to me that absolutely confirms this but perhaps you didn't recognize it. Battery voltage readings are deceiving because they do not indicate capacity. 25.7 volts sounds like a fully charged 24 volt bank, but is it? Only if the battery was at rest for 5-6 hours could you have some confidence that the bank was full at this voltage. But this is not the case because the bank is in daily use, always charging or discharging. However, there is one useful indication that voltage can be used for: detecting a sulfated battery. You mentioned that the the battery drops to 24.5 in the early AM without any heavy loads on. For the 4KS25 battery this equates to about 800AH at the 72 hour rate. Then you said that the customer ran a 2500 watt generator for 5 minutes and drove the voltage up to 29 volts. Here's the Ah-Ha moment: That is EXACTLY the behavior of a heavily sulfated battery bank. A fast rise in voltage indicates sulfation. It is impossible for that tiny generator, or any charge source they own for that matter, to replace the hundreds of AH it would take to drive a healthy battery up to the absorb voltage of 29 volts. The bank is about 45,000 watt hours (72h rate). There would have to be over 20,000 Wh removed to be at that voltage. How many Wh's are replaced in 5 minutes by a 2500 watt genny? I'm sure you are getting the picture. Why did this happen to these expensive batteries? Glad you asked. Battery plates are not uniformly efficient in the electrochemical process leaving some portions with lead sulfate even after 8 hours of charging. Unless these portions are cleared off regularly by achieving 100% SoC and occasional, thorough equalization, the amorphous sulfate will convert to a crystalline form and grow. 99% charge, if not corrected in time, will always cause premature battery failure. Undersized RE charging systems, or perhaps oversized batteries, is the culprit that contributes to this all too frequent phenomenon of chronic undercharging. I say contribute because there are other
Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation
Ron, Sorry to beat a dead horse, but a Pentametric will reveal what happens at 4am (or any other time). At a minimum all you need is the sending unit, 2-3 shunts and the serial converter. You then use your laptop to download and analyze what happened in the past few days, etc. of course, the display unit can show the customer details as well. The Pentametric can also monitor SOC and has a relay that can start the generator or turn on a Start the Genny Now indicator. As for sulfated batteries, I think SG will be higher with less water in the batteries for a given state of charge. That's just my gut talking not some advanced Molarity vs SG vs concentration calculation that I can vaguely remember doing. The bottom line, you still don't know if the customer will bounce another energy check since they are not keeping a check register to know the daily balance. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown BSEET, NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® President CEO Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. Office: 512-919-4493 Cell:512-460-9825 Sent from an iPhone. On Oct 24, 2011, at 2:49 AM, Ron Young solarea...@solareagle.com wrote: Hi Larry, I immediately assumed sulphated battery when I heard the customers description a couple of weeks ago but the hydrometer readings didn't jive. Any sulphated battery I've encountered, and I defer to your greater experience, has always revealed itself with a simple S.G. test and these batteries were reading above 1.265. I then thought the possibility of a defective hydrometer and had them test with another but we just got confirmation of the same thing. The weird drop in voltage also isn't explained by your description. Why would this just happen without loads or charging present (except maybe the DC Sunfrost load) at the same predictable time at 4 a.m. The fact that when the generator was turned on and sent a surge of current into the system and the problem went away made the detective in me think there had to be another explanation. The bank was at rest for several hours through the night and the voltage dropout was cured by a brief application of charge current. When I arrived on site my discovery that the client was under watering the batteries and this chronic condition resulted in a very rich electrolyte, reading well above 1.265 - into the 1.280 range made me think that was the problem and it seems to have gone away now that the electrolyte level was raised and the batteries given a good charge. But it still nags at me that something else is lurking in the shadows. Your description of the sulphate converting to a crystalline form has me worried because if this is the case this expensive battery bank is in danger. I would have to camp out at the site and monitor the charging over a day or so. I'm going to forward some of your comments and those of others that have generously offered suggestions and we'll see if I can convince the client who now believes everything is A-Ok. Best Regards, Ron Young earthRight Products - Solareagle.com Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products On 2011-10-22, at 12:06 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Hi Ron, As many on this list have suggested, it sounds like a sulfated battery condition. In your last message you revealed something to me that absolutely confirms this but perhaps you didn't recognize it. Battery voltage readings are deceiving because they do not indicate capacity. 25.7 volts sounds like a fully charged 24 volt bank, but is it? Only if the battery was at rest for 5-6 hours could you have some confidence that the bank was full at this voltage. But this is not the case because the bank is in daily use, always charging or discharging. However, there is one useful indication that voltage can be used for: detecting a sulfated battery. You mentioned that the the battery drops to 24.5 in the early AM without any heavy loads on. For the 4KS25 battery this equates to about 800AH at the 72 hour rate. Then you said that the customer ran a 2500 watt generator for 5 minutes and drove the voltage up to 29 volts. Here's the Ah-Ha moment: That is EXACTLY the behavior of a heavily sulfated battery bank. A fast rise in voltage indicates sulfation. It is impossible for that tiny generator, or any charge source they own for that matter, to replace the hundreds of AH it would take to drive a healthy battery up to the absorb voltage of 29 volts. The bank is about 45,000 watt hours (72h rate). There would have to be over 20,000 Wh removed to be at that voltage. How many Wh's are replaced in 5 minutes by a 2500 watt genny? I'm sure you are getting the picture. Why did this happen to these expensive batteries? Glad you asked. Battery plates are not uniformly efficient in the electrochemical process leaving some portions with lead sulfate even after 8 hours of
Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation
There are yet other issues to consider relative to specific gravity. #1: I believe temperature has been mentioned already, but merits revisiting: Specific gravity varies somewhat with the temperature of the electrolyte. Some of the more sophisticated measurement equipment takes temperature into account. Lower cost models don't. However, temperature can be included in your calculations by use of a simple thermometer to measure approximate battery temperature at the time the SG readings are taken, then factored into the readings. Cold batteries will yield higher SG readings than warm ones. #2: Another concern is stratification. Acid is more dense than water and thus sinks to the bottom of the battery. For more accurate readings, electrolyte must be stirred to thoroughly re-mix the solution *before* samples are taken for SG measurement. Given the construction of batteries, this is difficult (but not impossible) to do. Failing that, and using just an initial sample of electrolyte from the top of a cell, SG readings from the top may be lower than actual values. Jamie Surrette recommends adding distilled water to bring the electrolyte level up to the manufacturer's recommended level, then charging the battery to a point of light-to-moderate outgassing (with all precautions, of course) for a couple of hours. After the battery has rested for as long as possible (24 hours suggested), *then* take a SG reading. Hydrogen and oxygen get trapped in the electrolyte and will cause errors in any SG readings taken immediately after such a charging period. Since this is an off-grid home, one option might be to charge with the generator as late into the evening as possible, then take SG readings the next morning before any significant loads are applied. May be a Friday night/Saturday AM event if the owner works during the week. Dan --- On Mon, 10/24/11, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: From: Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 5:35 AM Ron,You have made a connection that I would not have made, and while I may be wrong here, it has got me thinking. I have never equated low water level with SG, nor have I ever read in battery maintenance guides that I should maintain a particular water level before measuring SG. I'm not convinced that electrolyte level has any connection with measured SG, although it would seem logical on the surface. I have always thought that if the correct concentration of acid was installed at the factory and not lost thereafter (such as due to a spill or chronic overfilling), the SC is only a function of SOC. I'm interested in others' opinions here. AllanPositive Energy ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Boy constant off line problem
We have installed many Sunny Boy grid tie inverters in all size ranges with no problems until this head scratcher. For this client we installed a 4 kW grid tie system 2 years ago that included a 4 kW Sunny Boy inverter. At the time we anticipated this client would want to upsize the ground mounted array located about 180 feet from his home that was all landscaped, so we installed an empty conduit with the required conduit when we dug the trench. A few dollars of PVC might come in handy later. This system has worked perfectly for 2 years. Almost a year ago we were called back to install the second system, which was an exact duplicate of the first. Same modules, just lengthened the racking so same orientation, same model inverter, same wire size using the empty conduit we left the first time, and supplying the same breaker panel. Starting several months ago the second Sunny Boy inverter has started to go off line for no known reason. The first inverter right beside it is seeing the same grid, yet it is not having this problem. We suspected the added circuit breaker was flaky and replaced it but this did not resolve. The error message always indicates no grid AC. This last time the inverter was off line for 2 days then came on by itself again and is now working just fine. During all this the first inverter worked perfectly. After 3 trips to check out and finding nothing out of place, is it time to send this one back to the factory? Jeff Yago ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation
Hi Ron,Accurate SG readings are not simple. Was temperature compensation properly employed? Have they been keeping a log book to identify changes? How accurate is the hydrometer? How skilled is the person taking the reading?Most of the Battery Wrench responses suggest equalization but I don't see from any of your posts that this has been done yet. I suggest this to be the next step and I recommend that you carefully watch voltage and current. This will tell you a lot. I use a Fluke ScopeMeter in the TrendPlot mode and track voltage and current over time. It provides a good visual understanding.In case others are using this forum to glean information, attached is a chart for illustration of the charge cycle. You should see a constant, somewhat linear rise in voltage until the constant voltage setting is reached. If you see a sudden rise: suspect sulfation. If you see a quick reduction in current: suspect sulfation. The current should drop to about 8-10 amps at the constant voltage towards the end of charge cycle. The health and DoD will determine the time this takes, expect many hours. Begin equalization. A couple other points: Is the MX absorb voltage at 29.6V? Did you program the MX controller for an extended absorb time (advanced menu, absorb time limits)? The default setting is poor for large batteries. I use 90 minutes minimum and 4 hours max. This can greatly reduce the possibility of undercharging the battery but it may use more water. The timer (ChgT) will determine how long it stays in absorb each day.Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 24, 2011, at 12:49 AM, Ron Young wrote:Hi Larry,I immediately assumed sulphated battery when I heard the customers description a couple of weeks ago but the hydrometer readings didn't jive. Any sulphated battery I've encountered, and I defer to your greater experience, has always revealed itself with a simple S.G. test and these batteries were reading above 1.265. I then thought the possibility of a defective hydrometer and had them test with another but we just got confirmation of the same thing.The weird drop in voltage also isn't explained by your description. Why would this just happen without loads or charging present (except maybe the DC Sunfrost load) at the same predictable time at 4 a.m. The fact that when the generator was turned on and sent a surge of current into the system and the problem went away made the detective in me think there had to be another explanation. The bank was at rest for several hours through the night and the voltage dropout was cured by a brief application of charge current.When I arrived on site my discovery that the client was under watering the batteries and this chronic condition resulted in a very rich electrolyte, reading well above 1.265 - into the 1.280 range made me think that was the problem and it seems to have gone away now that the electrolyte level was raised and the batteries given a good charge. But it still nags at me that something else is lurking in the shadows. Your description of the sulphate converting to a crystalline form has me worried because if this is the case this expensive battery bank is in danger. I would have to camp out at the site and monitor the charging over a day or so. I'm going to forward some of your comments and those of others that have generously offered suggestions and we'll see if I can convince the client who now believes everything is A-Ok.Best Regards,Ron YoungearthRight Products - Solareagle.comAlternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Boy constant off line problem
It sounds like an AC line problem, but it could be as you suspect. If you could put a recording voltmeter on the AC side of this inverter, perhaps Egauge? I have not looked at line voltage on my egauges only current. HoBo used to make a voltage monitor also. DT From: Jeff Yago jry...@dtisolar.com To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Boy constant off line problem We have installed many Sunny Boy grid tie inverters in all size ranges with no problems until this head scratcher. For this client we installed a 4 kW grid tie system 2 years ago that included a 4 kW Sunny Boy inverter. At the time we anticipated this client would want to upsize the ground mounted array located about 180 feet from his home that was all landscaped, so we installed an empty conduit with the required conduit when we dug the trench. A few dollars of PVC might come in handy later. This system has worked perfectly for 2 years. Almost a year ago we were called back to install the second system, which was an exact duplicate of the first. Same modules, just lengthened the racking so same orientation, same model inverter, same wire size using the empty conduit we left the first time, and supplying the same breaker panel. Starting several months ago the second Sunny Boy inverter has started to go off line for no known reason. The first inverter right beside it is seeing the same grid, yet it is not having this problem. We suspected the added circuit breaker was flaky and replaced it but this did not resolve. The error message always indicates no grid AC. This last time the inverter was off line for 2 days then came on by itself again and is now working just fine. During all this the first inverter worked perfectly. After 3 trips to check out and finding nothing out of place, is it time to send this one back to the factory? Jeff Yago ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Boy constant off line problem
Jeff, I suggest high AC volts is the issues. The second inverter may not have the same settings as the first. The voltage is already being pushed up by the first inverter, maybe the second one is adjusted a little tighter. The SMA config tool can show the settings. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown BSEET, NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® President CEO Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. Office: 512-919-4493 Cell:512-460-9825 Sent from my HondaJet! On Oct 24, 2011, at 8:10 AM, Jeff Yago jry...@dtisolar.com wrote: We have installed many Sunny Boy grid tie inverters in all size ranges with no problems until this head scratcher. For this client we installed a 4 kW grid tie system 2 years ago that included a 4 kW Sunny Boy inverter. At the time we anticipated this client would want to upsize the ground mounted array located about 180 feet from his home that was all landscaped, so we installed an empty conduit with the required conduit when we dug the trench. A few dollars of PVC might come in handy later. This system has worked perfectly for 2 years. Almost a year ago we were called back to install the second system, which was an exact duplicate of the first. Same modules, just lengthened the racking so same orientation, same model inverter, same wire size using the empty conduit we left the first time, and supplying the same breaker panel. Starting several months ago the second Sunny Boy inverter has started to go off line for no known reason. The first inverter right beside it is seeing the same grid, yet it is not having this problem. We suspected the added circuit breaker was flaky and replaced it but this did not resolve. The error message always indicates no grid AC. This last time the inverter was off line for 2 days then came on by itself again and is now working just fine. During all this the first inverter worked perfectly. After 3 trips to check out and finding nothing out of place, is it time to send this one back to the factory? Jeff Yago ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Sharp 62 Watt Shingle Installation Info needed
Wrenches, I just picked up 32 Sharp 62 watt roofing shingles that I want to install on my barn since it is time for a new roof. Has anyone had any experience putting these modules on a roof in conjunction with cement tiles, which sharp's data sheet says they integrate with. David Katz David Katz CTO Founder AEE Solar Inc P: 707 825-1200 F: 707 825-1202 dk...@aeesolar.com www.aeesolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Boy constant off line problem
Jeff, Please contact our Service Line for support on this issue: 877-697-6283 SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Sr. Technical Service Specialist, Sunny Family 6020 West Oaks Blvd, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel: +1 916 625 0870 Fax: +1 916 624-2445 Service Line +1 877 697 6283 (Toll Free) Email: steve.jeffer...@sma-america.com www.SMA-America.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Sharp 62W Modules
I just picked up 32 Sharp 62 watt roofing shingles that I want to install on my barn since it is time for a new roof. Has anyone had any experience putting these modules on a roof in conjunction with cement tiles, which sharp's data sheet says they integrate with. David Katz David, we have installed these before, and they are a bit labor intensive. I can send you the installation manual if you don't have it. The manual also lists the compatible cement flat tiles. It has been a number of years, but I think you need some special front clips, top clips, and maybe a special cable from Sharp, as well. Mark Byington Cobalt Power Systems, Inc. ma...@cobaltpower.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Boy constant off line problem
We've also seen newer SBs be more sensitive to high line voltages than older ones on multiple array behind the same meter. Our experience is that response from utility crews to correct the problem is prompt when an expert solar installer reports the problem. Check a neighboring service to confirm the high voltage is not just at your meter. Tech support is a last resort. Jim Duncan Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Steve Jefferson steve.jeffer...@sma-america.com Sender: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:44:12 To: RE-wrenchesre-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Boy constant off line problem Jeff, Please contact our Service Line for support on this issue: 877-697-6283 SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Sr. Technical Service Specialist, Sunny Family 6020 West Oaks Blvd, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel: +1 916 625 0870 Fax: +1 916 624-2445 Service Line +1 877 697 6283 (Toll Free) Email: steve.jeffer...@sma-america.com www.SMA-America.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Cummins DC generator
I downloaded the spec sheets on the DC generator, it's either LP or natural gas. Also it's regulated to 26 volts or 52 volts, so it's about useless to charge batteries in an off grid system, unless you just need to feed power to the battery bank. Bob Ellison From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 7:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Three-phase off-grid HI Allan; I haven't tried the large Exeltech inverters, but I could see some advantages to having a separate charging system, and keeping the inverters supplying stable power. Everytime a generator coughs or switches from one source to another, it seems to cause trouble. The generator could be sized smaller, since it wouldn't need any surge capability. It would always run the same charger, and the inverters would always run the same loads. I'd at least take another look at it for my next large project, but cost might be a limiting factor. Here's a Cummins diesel DC generator, just to think about: http://www.cumminspowerproducts.com/DCgensets/Other/1500.pdf Ray On 10/21/2011 4:56 PM, Gary Willett wrote: Alan: Thanks for setting me straight about 3-phasing the Outback Radian - I was not aware they are limited to parallel single phase applications. Regards, Gary Willett On 10/21/2011 15:29, Allan Sindelar wrote: Gary, I was surprised by this information, as I had presumed that both units were for single-phase only. So I checked. Mary Raub in tech support at Outback told me that the Radian works only in 120/240 single-phase, although they are stackable in parallel. Someone in Schneider tech support told me that the XW can be used in three-phase, up to six units (36 kW). Setup instructions are in Appendix D of the XW installation guide, found online at http://www.global-download.schneider-electric.com/85257849002EB8CB/all/5CC68 9CC3CB7FD10852578BF005EA759/$File/xw-hybrid-inverter-charger_installation-gu ide%28975-0239-01-01_rev-e%29.pdf. Thanks, Allan Allan Sindelar mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/ On 10/21/2011 2:01 PM, Gary Willett wrote: Allan: Also, you might consider using six to nine Schneider/Xantrex XW6048 inverters, or six to nine Outback Radian GS8048 inverters, in a 3-phase configuration, with a common battery bank. Also, Schneider/Xantrex has an 80A 600V charge controller that may be advantageous depending on the distance from the PV arrays to the inverters. Regards, Gary Willett, PE Icarus-Engineering LLC Icarus Solar Services LLC On 10/21/2011 10:17, Allan Sindelar wrote: Wrenches, We have been asked for a design for an off-grid system to reduce generator runtime for a mountain resort. Initial projections (consumption measurement results not yet available) suggest 15-20 kW of PV and around 30 kW of inverter capacity. However, the generators and existing wiring are three-phase 120/208. My assumption is that our only options are a set of six Sunny Islands, or 9-12 Outback GVFX3648s. Are there any other options or approaches that I'm missing? Thank you, Allan -- Allan Sindelar mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules
Re: [RE-wrenches] Cummins DC generator
They show them as being used specifically for off grid solar applications including remote homes, but I'm with you, I don't understand the voltage limitation. They seem to think they are just replacing the battery while running, not actually charging it. Very weird. I even went through their case studies, and I'm wondering if they might end up with some long term sulfation problems. It seems they're only interested in reducing the battery size, not augmenting the PV charging; seems a waste of fuel. I linked to these for Allan earlier just as food for thought I wasn't actually advocating their use. It does look like a decent generator, so possibly the voltage limitation could be overcome? I remember another DC gen set, that ran a Honda motor to belt belt drive a truck alternator (late 90s). I recall them being something of a pain. Here's another that looks interesting, and actually can be adjusted up to 64 vdc: http://polarpowerinc.com/products/generators/index.htm Once again, I'm just sharing the info, not advocating these. R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Oct 24, 2011, at 6:30 PM, bob ellison wrote: I downloaded the spec sheets on the DC generator, it’s either LP or natural gas. Also it’s regulated to 26 volts or 52 volts, so it’s about useless to charge batteries in an off grid system, unless you just need to feed power to the battery bank. Bob Ellison From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 7:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Three-phase off-grid HI Allan; I haven't tried the large Exeltech inverters, but I could see some advantages to having a separate charging system, and keeping the inverters supplying stable power. Everytime a generator coughs or switches from one source to another, it seems to cause trouble. The generator could be sized smaller, since it wouldn't need any surge capability. It would always run the same charger, and the inverters would always run the same loads. I'd at least take another look at it for my next large project, but cost might be a limiting factor. Here's a Cummins diesel DC generator, just to think about: http://www.cumminspowerproducts.com/DCgensets/Other/1500.pdf Ray On 10/21/2011 4:56 PM, Gary Willett wrote: Alan: Thanks for setting me straight about 3-phasing the Outback Radian - I was not aware they are limited to parallel single phase applications. Regards, Gary Willett On 10/21/2011 15:29, Allan Sindelar wrote: Gary, I was surprised by this information, as I had presumed that both units were for single-phase only. So I checked. Mary Raub in tech support at Outback told me that the Radian works only in 120/240 single-phase, although they are stackable in parallel. Someone in Schneider tech support told me that the XW can be used in three-phase, up to six units (36 kW). Setup instructions are in Appendix D of the XW installation guide, found online at http://www.global-download.schneider-electric.com/85257849002EB8CB/all/5CC689CC3CB7FD10852578BF005EA759/$File/xw-hybrid-inverter-charger_installation-guide%28975-0239-01-01_rev-e%29.pdf. Thanks, Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com On 10/21/2011 2:01 PM, Gary Willett wrote: Allan: Also, you might consider using six to nine Schneider/Xantrex XW6048 inverters, or six to nine Outback Radian GS8048 inverters, in a 3-phase configuration, with a common battery bank. Also, Schneider/Xantrex has an 80A 600V charge controller that may be advantageous depending on the distance from the PV arrays to the inverters. Regards, Gary Willett, PE Icarus-Engineering LLC Icarus Solar Services LLC On 10/21/2011 10:17, Allan Sindelar wrote: Wrenches, We have been asked for a design for an off-grid system to reduce generator runtime for a mountain resort. Initial projections (consumption measurement results not yet available) suggest 15-20 kW of PV and around 30 kW of inverter capacity. However, the generators and existing wiring are three-phase 120/208. My assumption is that our only options are a set of six Sunny Islands, or 9-12 Outback GVFX3648s. Are there any other options or approaches that I'm missing? Thank you, Allan -- Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home
