Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4
Mac, Li-ion batteries are connected the same as any other deep cycle, positive and negative terminals. The Battery management is done actively on each cell. The brand that we sell has a CPU that receives serial data from the string of “sense” boards that are monitoring temperature and voltage per cell. The sense boards also function to balance the cells after they reach 2.55 volts per cell. There is a 0.5 amp shunt on the cells that are higher and this allows the current to continue charging cells that are lower. The management system is strictly DC. You can charge from a number of sources. Larry On Sep 16, 2014, at 6:44 AM, Mac Lewis maclew...@gmail.com wrote: Hello wrenches, How do you get PV power into the battery management system? Are there PV application specific battery management systems, or are these AC loads? Thanks ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4
Hi William, I have designed and installed a few lithium iron battery banks. We now stock the GBS line and plan to add additional brands soon. My experience is very positive toward the performance and future of LFP and LFMP as a replacement to lead acid for off grid, stand-by and mobile use. As the price point continues to drop and manufacturers begin to support this technology, I can see it replacing all lead acid designs. But, I’m no Ray Kurzweil. What would you like to know? Larry On Sep 15, 2014, at 5:28 PM, William Miller will...@millersolar.com wrote: Wrenches: Does anyone have any experience with Lithium Ferrous Phosphate cells? What are your experiences? I am looking at an installation tomorrow and would like some input. Thanks in advance. William Miller image003.jpg Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid-tie inverter for wind generator
Chris, I would not touch that with a..….20 foot pole. It will never work right and he will assign you the blame when he sees his electric bill go down by $1 per month. Larry On Sep 5, 2014, at 9:42 AM, Chris Daum ch...@oasismontana.com wrote: One killowatt, and three wire. He's been using it with some heating elements as a dump load, to make hot water. And he just sent me a picture -- heck, it's on something like a 20 ft. pole, so no wonder it's not making much power! Also he doesn't want to spend a lot of money, so I suspect the Aurora (which would be a pretty good deal) will still be too costly for him. His machine's output is put through rectifiers to make the battery voltage. --Chris @ the Oasis Montana ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower off grid?
Hello Ray, I have been installing SunPower cell modules for about a decade. All of our mobile installations are ungrounded arrays, off grid we use negative ground. We have never had any issue using them to charge batteries up to 48 volts, even when combined in series. I have not installed any for grid tie. Last year I purchased about 100 of the 327 and 435 Watt modules, likely from the same seller, for a very low price. There is no SunPower label on the back. I was told that these modules were laminates that SunPower rejected due to cosmetic flaws. The surface has lots of blemishes clearly visible under the glass. Someone other than SunPower made frames and assembled the module. The frame quality is not so great and the 435 structurally feels inadequate. I sell these to off grid customers in Mexico that want cheap but high performance PV solar power. That’s all... Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Aug 20, 2014, at 10:46 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: Greetings fellow Wrenches; I have a customer that just purchased some Sunpower E20 -435 modules somehow from Ebay, and wants me to design a backup power system for him. This system would be battery based and not be grid tied. SO the question is: has Sunpower put to rest the positive grounding issue with these modules? I would want to either use a negative ground system or go ungrounded, as the charge controllers and battery based inverter do not play well with a positive grounded system. My idea is that I could run these modules at lower voltage, either all in parallel (85.6 Voc) or 2 in series (191 Voc) with Midnite Classic controllers, and that the whole surface polarization issue will be minimized at these lower voltages. I know this came up before, and Sunpower basically said they would revoke their warranty for any battery based systems, (which is why I'm no longer a Sunpower dealer :) Don't the newer Sunpower modules no longer need positive ground, and if so, which models is this true for? In this case, the warranty is already suspect, so that's not an issue. It just has to work safely. Thanks in advance for your help, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] WorkTruck Inverter Suggestions
Hi Bill, I’m probably stating the obvious but we always install mobile inverters closest to the battery due to the high loss at 12 volts, then run AC to the point of use. Larry On Aug 7, 2014, at 7:07 AM, Bill Loesch solar1onl...@charter.net wrote: Gentlemen: Does anyone have any suggestions/preferences on mounting the inverter streetside or curbside on the service body pickup? TIA, -- Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Battery....was 2v metal cased cells
$360/kWh is a good price. Can you share the brand with us or email me off list? We sell Li-ion (LFMP) at our store but I include a CPU, protection solenoids, battery capacity meter and video display. My dealer cost is quite a bit higher than you were quoted. Larry On Jul 12, 2014, at 11:42 AM, Phil Lawes p...@insoltechsolar.com wrote: Just curious if fellow wrenches are looking at Li-on batteries. We were just quoted a 50KWHR at 48 volt battery pack with enclosure and BMS for $ 360.00 per KWHR or $0.36 per watt hour. ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver Battery
Hello Bob, We began selling FullRiver about 4 years ago and probably have over 200 systems installed. We have had no failures or issues with them. One aspect I like is the high acceptance voltage of 2.483 Vpc. Higher voltage means more power into the battery so you are charging faster. The 2 volt L16 (1150AH @ C20 rate) is very popular at our store. I might go as far as saying they are comparable in quality and performance to Lifeline battery. Cost is about 10% less than Lifeline, and 20% less than SunXtender. Made in China so I don’t promote them as I do US made Lifeline which is our best selling battery. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 2, 2014, at 3:58 PM, RE Ellison reelli...@gmail.com wrote: What has been everybody’s experience with Full River Batteries? Bob ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum and Pumps
Hi Drake, If the Enphase are online, up to 60 amps (30A @ 240V) can be transferred through the Magnum inverter to loads. The inverter is not providing power to loads at that time. If the Enphase go offline, the Magnum takes over using power from the battery. If the load is greater than your Enphase system can provide, the Magnum will transfer to battery power based on the VAC dropout setting. You probably want to use the UPS mode (read ME-ARC manual about this). The new Magnum MSH models can combine AC input power and battery power to increase the total AC output capacity for starting heavy loads. Larry On Jul 3, 2014, at 7:59 AM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: This information helps greatly. I really appreciate all of your expert advice. One other wild card in the installation is that the inverter is going to be AC coupled with an Enphase system. The Enphase system will contribute greatly to the overall power available in the protected loads panel. But, with Magnum's slow voltage response I'm not sure if the Enphase system will drop off line when the pump surges, or if the Enphase power will be available to help with the startup surge. Any insights on this? Thank you, Drake ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum and Pumps
Yes Drake, I stand corrected, I was picturing the micro inverters feeding the input rather than coupling the output of the Magnum. To your original question, I think you would have to be consuming more power than the PV array alone can provide before the Magnum voltage would drop with the pump load. So it may be a rare event unless the PV array is small. Of course after sundown its all on the Magnum. That’s why I suggested two Magnums in my first response. Does anyone know how tolerant the Enphase inverters are of such a momentary sag? Larry On Jul 3, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: Hi Larry, In this case, the Enphase will AC couple with the Magnum in the protected loads panel. The AC out of the Magnum provides the micro grid to which the Enphase connects. If charging exceeds loads, when the grid is down, power will go to the batteries (up to the high battery voltage set point). If loads are greater than the output of the Enphase system, the Magnum will produce power to feed the loads. Thanks, Drake At 10:55 AM 7/3/2014, you wrote: Hi Drake, If the Enphase are online, up to 60 amps (30A @ 240V) can be transferred through the Magnum inverter to loads. The inverter is not providing power to loads at that time. If the Enphase go offline, the Magnum takes over using power from the battery. If the load is greater than your Enphase system can provide, the Magnum will transfer to battery power based on the VAC dropout setting. You probably want to use the UPS mode (read ME-ARC manual about this). The new Magnum MSH models can combine AC input power and battery power to increase the total AC output capacity for starting heavy loads. Larry On Jul 3, 2014, at 7:59 AM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: This information helps greatly. I really appreciate all of your expert advice. One other wild card in the installation is that the inverter is going to be AC coupled with an Enphase system. The Enphase system will contribute greatly to the overall power available in the protected loads panel. But, with Magnum's slow voltage response I'm not sure if the Enphase system will drop off line when the pump surges, or if the Enphase power will be available to help with the startup surge. Any insights on this? Thank you, Drake ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum and Pumps
If you have a clamp on meter that can capture inrush current (I use a Fluke 337 for this) you can get a good idea of the starting current needed. One problem is that while backing up the house, you will likely have other loads operating when the pump starts which will decrease the available surge current. I would recommend using a stacked pair of 4448’s as a minimum if you have other house loads. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 2, 2014, at 8:17 AM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: Hello Wrenches, We are hoping to use a Magnum PAE 4448 to back up a household that includes a 3/4 HP deep well pump. There is about 120 feet of vertical rise and about 1000 feet of horizontal distance. I have been told that there is a correlation between the locked rotor current of a pump and the predictable ability of a specified inverter to power that pump. The plumber who installed the pump left no paperwork and retained no records of what pump he put in the hole last year. He could only say it was a 3/4 HP pump. We are therefore unable to obtain the manufacturer's nameplate specifications. The Magnum PAE 4448 has a 1 mS surge of 70 A (at 240 V) and a 100 MS surge of 40 A. According to the NEC Table 430.251(A), a 3/4 HP motor has a locked rotor current of 41.4 amps at 230 V. This inverter can surge at 35.4 A for 5 seconds. The specified battery bank will be 8 Full River L-16 AGMs. Can anyone say if: Is there enough information to know if this setup will handle the pump, and if so, will it? How can an inverter's ability to power a motor or pump be calculated by knowing its locked rotor current? Which surge periods should be compared to the locked rotor current? Does the surge current need to equal locked rotor. How long must the inverter meet its required maximum surge? From experience with Magnums and pumps, does this seem like a good combination? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ ___ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum and Pumps
Hi Roy, The FullRiver DC400-6 AGM battery can issue 2000 amps for 5 seconds so he should be fine. Larry On Jul 2, 2014, at 12:35 PM, Roy Butler r...@four-winds-energy.com wrote: I haven't seen anyone mention the battery bank. If I understand correctly, there's a single string of sealed L16 batteries on this inverter. I have my doubts as to whether or not that bank can provide the high current the inverter needs to start this load. Roy Butler NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® NYSERDA eligible PV wind installer IREC Certified Master Trainer™ for Small Wind Installer Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com Join us at the 10th Annual Small Wind Conference A Gathering of Installers, Manufacturers, Dealers, Distributors June 17 and 18, 2014 in Stevens Point, Wisconsin www.smallwindconference.com Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 7/2/2014 2:10 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: To further qualify my statements, the inverter will start the pump without issue, but I should echo the warnings by others that if there are other loads present, especially other motor loads that could start concurrently, you may experience issues. As long as your customer understands the limitations and possibilities, you may be just fine. Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 11:00 AM, Jason Szumlanski ja...@fafcosolar.com wrote: For what it's worth, I've run a single speed 1.5HP pool pump with a MS4448PAE in a mobile application on a 38.4kWh battery bank (sixteen Rolls S-530's). I have also run a 2.5HP Hayward EcoStar Variable Speed pool pump at full RPM, but that startup current is likely less than you well pump. I'm going to guess your 3/4HP well pump will be a breeze to start with this inverter. Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com wrote: Drake, As a normal CYA, I'll always gently let a customer know that this (or any) particular combination of inverter and load sometimes proves incompatible, just in case the unexpected happens. (We once had a MS4448 that would not reliably start and run a condensing boiler; a switch to a different boiler resolved the issue.) Having said that note of caution, I wouldn't give it any concern. 3/4 HP and 1 HP well pumps have never been an issue; I would expect 1.5 HP to be easy to run. At 2 HP I'd be asking these questions here. You might check that it's a 3-wire, capacitor-start motor, but nowadays nearly all are. Two-wire pumps (with no control box) can add 50% to the surge. The Magnum has a fairly poor voltage regulation response. Sometimes the AC voltage can drop to ~80 VAC momentarily. So you might also caution your customer that the lights may flicker when the pump starts. In our home we know whenever our Kenmore fridge turns on. Allan Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 7/2/2014 8:17 AM, Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, We are hoping to use a Magnum PAE 4448 to back up a household that includes a 3/4 HP deep well pump. There is about 120 feet of vertical rise and about 1000 feet of horizontal distance. I have been told that there is a correlation between the locked rotor current of a pump and the predictable ability of a specified inverter to power that pump. The plumber who installed the pump left no paperwork and retained no records of what pump he put in the hole last year. He could only say it was a 3/4 HP pump. We are therefore unable to obtain the manufacturer's nameplate specifications. The Magnum PAE 4448 has a 1 mS surge of 70 A (at 240 V) and a 100 MS surge of 40 A. According to the NEC Table 430.251(A), a 3/4 HP motor has a locked rotor current of 41.4 amps at 230 V. This inverter can surge at 35.4 A for 5 seconds. The specified battery bank will be 8 Full River L-16 AGMs. Can anyone say if: Is there enough information to know if this setup will handle the pump, and if so, will it? How can an inverter's ability to power a motor or pump be calculated by knowing its locked rotor current? Which surge periods should be compared to the locked rotor current? Does the surge current need to equal locked rotor. How long must the inverter meet its required maximum surge? From experience with Magnums and pumps, does this seem like a good combination? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ ___ List sponsored by
[RE-wrenches] Trace SW4024 LCD display problem
I am looking for someone that can repair the SW4024 LCD control. The display is getting to dim to view. Thank you, Larry ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Damage - Need Replacements (Correction)
Hi Dan, You mentioned that “his grounds didn't work”. Actually, they worked, just in an undesirable way. One thing to look at is how or whether the house ground system was bonded to the tower ground. If they were not properly bonded, and with poor soil condition, the potential difference between the two grounds could create very high voltages. The voltage path would be the turbine wiring to find the house ground, traveling through any AC connected items to do so. I would like to hear more about this as it’s a personal subject of study for me. Larry Crutcher On Jun 15, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Exeltech exelt...@yahoo.com wrote: Hello Chris, ….The system is off-grid north of Fort Worth, Texas. The house and equipment are sitting on and in the worst caliche I've ever seen. It's as close to concrete as you can get. There's virtually no topsoil. Watering grounds won't help .. even poured into a hole. It just sits there. They had to jackhammer to dig the tower hole. He's got a 110' tower for his Bergey. He told me they drove numerous grounds diagonally into the bottom of the tower hole from the edges, bonded them all together, then connected everything to the tower, as well as the other equipment using #4 AWG solid. All of the guy wires are equally bonded. Lightning hit the tower directly, but the fact is .. his grounds didn't work. Everything electrical in the house was destroyed. Didn't matter if it was turned on or off. The only things that DID survive are his batteries (as far as he can tell) .. and the Bergey itself. He connected a three-phase diode array directly to the Bergey output leads, and it's charging his batteries, just not as well as with the controller in place (of course). The genny runs smoothly in the wind, meaning all three phases are intact. If one or two phases were open, you'd see it and hear it in the motion of the blades - much the same effect on the engine if you had a plug wire fall off. If you're a wind person (how can you NOT be in Montana?) .. you already knew that. He may bonded everything to his well casing. I don't know - but I'll ask. This is indeed a good learning opportunity. I'm going to help him get things operating again .. and will highly recommend some of the new lightning protection units Midnite is making. In the meantime .. charge controllers and inverters first. Thanks! Dan ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Kyocera 120's low voltage
David, Kyocera KC-120-1’s from 1999 to Dec 2002 will fail from a defective solder joint. Although out of warranty, they are still be warranted by Kyocera and replaced with a remanufactured KC-120-1R. Contact them (rae.parafin...@kyocera.com) with the serial numbers and mfg dates to get an RMA started. We keep the remanufactured units in stock at our store because we see so many of these. Kyocera will also pay labor to replace them. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jun 11, 2014, at 4:47 PM, Dave d...@independentpowerllc.com wrote: Wrenches, I troubleshot an underperforming off grid array today and found low Voc's in 4 out of 10 KC-120's (nominal 12v modules rated at 21.5 Voc and 7.45 Isc). Modules are vintage 2000. Under modest sunlight (500 to 600W per M sqd) 6 modules measured from 18 to 19 Voc and 4 Isc. Four modules measured from 9.6 to 13.7 Voc and 4 Isc. I was chased off the roof by a coming thunderstorm and did not check for bad diodes. These modules have nice old school J-boxes with 6 diodes per each module. Am I looking at a diode issue, or failing modules? Thanking you in advance for your time, David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] high efficiency modules in U.S.
marco, We used to stock Panasonic. I first heard about this in February when I tried to reorder inventory. I was told by a distributor that Panasonic increased the minimum order. Every one I contacted had no intention of ordering them due to this new minimum. In contacting Panasonic back in Feb. they told me they were working it out with Sunwize. Now they no longer reply to phone or email messages. Larry On Apr 25, 2014, at 9:26 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf ma...@pvthawaii.com wrote: Regarding Panasonic Solar news, this is the first I’ve heard of this. Anyone know why they’re no longer distributing in the U.S.? marco ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] high efficiency modules in U.S.
Hey Kirk, We have sold sanyo then Panasonic modules for over a decade. Not only were they highly efficient, they were the last truly high performance modules in the US. I have exhausted my search for them, only 3 left in stock. Panasonic will not return my phone calls or emails. There are dozens of China companies making small and expensive modules using SunPower cells but I doubt any are listed. I managed to buy some 327 and 435 Watt Sunpower modules dirt cheap from a guy. These were cosmetically blemished laminates that someone framed. Isc tests show they are producing rated power or higher but the frame is light and the cell surface has blotches under the glass. No listing on these either but my off grid customers in Mexico love them for the performance and cheap price per Watt. Does anyone know which of the 60 cell manufacturers have the highest module efficiency? Larry On Apr 25, 2014, at 5:05 AM, Kirk Herander k...@vtsolar.com wrote: Now that it appears Sanyo/Panasonic is no longer available, and Sunpower distribution is tightly controlled, what other high-efficiency alternatives are U.S.-available? Thanks. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Un-Common quality since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Wrong title on my inquiry ... Charge Controller Question!
Hi Karl, On their main page they claim charging ...with little or no electrolyte gassing. Gassing is a function of charge voltage. If you are charging deep cycle batteries properly, you will be gassing. After reading through the brochure, I'm not very impressed. Do yourself a favor and listen to what Ray said. Stick with proven, mainstream CC manufacturers. The fact that it is not an MPPT controller is a major drawback in any system over a few hundred Watts. Please share with us the operating and customization functions that you are looking for? Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 22, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Karl Jaeger kjae...@lightwavesolar.com wrote: From: Karl Jaeger Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 2:28 PM To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: RE: Fault Current Greetings Wrenches, We’re considering a new charge controller for an upcoming project that offers a wide range of operation and customization. Has anyone had experience with this product? General specs and link below: Sollatek - Solar Control Centre/ Solar Charge Controller 12/24/or 48V 10-100V Voltage Range 90-960A Max Charge Current http://www.sollatek.com/product/solarcontrolcentre/ Thank you in advance! Karl Jaeger LightWave Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] EMP question
Good answer Wayne…how strong AND how far away. I'm sure the inverse-square law apples here but if you don't know the initial power and distance, it does not matter much anyway. Now, for a hilarious interjection, there is a customer in our showroom at this moment asking about PV solar in case there is am EMP that takes out utility power! So funny. Larry On Apr 22, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Wayne wa...@pureenergysolar.com wrote: We get that question all the time. We reply with the same question that we ask them with regard to hurricanes. Well... how strong will it be? We have not found any good supported answer on line or otherwise. However, the answer I like the most is You will either be completely fine or totally screwed! There is no in between. Oh and here is your aluminum foil helmet.. no charge. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. wa...@pureenergysolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World shattered module
Hi David, We have thousands of PV modules installed mostly on RV's. An RV roof can be a very abusive environment with turbulence, flying debris, driving under limbs, heavy vibrations and more. I have not had any glass breakage that could not be accounted for, i.e, breaking for unknown reason. But, we have had hoodlums shooting at PV modules. Perhaps look at the back for a hole. Larry On Apr 21, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Dave Palumbo d...@independentpowerllc.com wrote: Wrenches, I have a customer with one SW 230 poly V2.0 frame (top mount) module that has shattered glass. It is on a DPW TPM10 pole mount. She noticed it the other day and does not think that it was hit by anything. I agree that is unlikely based on the site conditions. Other than by a falling tree, thrown rock, or twisted frame – is there another way that glass shatters on a 65 degree tilted pole mount like this? We installed the system 2 years ago. The module was on the lower corner of the array. · Is it likely that this modules frame was being pressured by the module(s) above it? TPM has two rows of 5 modules in landscape, so this bottom module has 4 modules mounted above it. Again it is a top mounted DPW pole array. · Or, is there another way that glass shatters on this type of module? I have not visited the site yet, just received the phone call today. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 (802) 888-7194 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with Fronius
Mac, I have a customer with 17kW on 3 Fronius inverters. He connected a cheap 40kW china diesel generator during a week long power outrage. I was amazed when he told me they sync'd up with no problems. Larry On Apr 16, 2014, at 1:44 PM, Mac Lewis maclew...@gmail.com wrote: Hello wrenches, Has anyone had good success AC coupling with Fronius Inverters? If so, what equipment did you use? Was this with an IG or an IG Plus? I have had quite a few people lately with Fronius Inverters that would like a backup solution and I'm not comfortable AC coupling these, but could potentially be persuaded. Thanks Mac Lewis ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Zomeworks Cool Cell
Sorry for reposting but perhaps my original post was missed. Has anyone used the Zomeworks Cool Cells? http://www.zomeworks.com/battery-electronic-enclosures/cool-cell/ Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 28, 2014, at 3:14 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: Wrenches, Have any of you used the Zomeworks Cool Cell battery enclosures? I would like to hear about their effectiveness, especially if you have used them in a very hot, dry climate. What maintenance is required? Zomeworks says on their website that one location kept the battery/equipment 41° below ambient. The customers site is a remote desert location with ambients up to 118°. The only access is by helicopter so I want to compare the total cost verses replacing batteries more frequently. I have built a few remote power systems here in the desert with Hoffman boxes and added some shading on sides and tops (pic). I used Sun Xtenders in these and they are still performing after 7. Thank you, Larry Crutcher ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Midnite Solar Whizbang Jr.
Has anyone successfully installed a Whizbang Jr. battery monitor for the Midnite Classic yet? I'm having strange trouble with a Classic after firmware updates and WB install and wonder if others have had trouble. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Temp, SOC, and Voltage
Ray, I have never considered the effect of battery voltage at low temperature under load, only capacity loss, so you got me thinking. Here's a simple idea: why not put a battery in a freezer with your expected load and monitor voltage, or better yet, chart to see where it lands. I would be doing this test right now but I don't have a freezer at the shop. Larry On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:26 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: Hi folks; I have pondered LVD set points to protect batteries from freezing, and realized I don't have enough information. While temp compensation is fairly straight forward when charging ( increase charge voltage when cold, reduce when hot, manufacturer's #s are close to charge controller assumptionsno problem) However, it is not at all clear what the battery voltage is at low temperatures, when the battery is at rest or during discharge. I've actually found a chart that shows battery voltage at rest for a fully charged battery Decreases at cold temps. (Look at voltage at bottom of chart) cighdiif.jpg I know battery capacity is reduced, but the voltage actually goes down, while charge voltage goes up? what happens during discharge? is the voltage higher or lower at low temps? I know that it becomes complicated with discharge rate, so that higher discharge rates create artificially lower voltages, hence the wonderful LVD settings of the old Trace SW 4024, which had 3 different voltage set points for 15 minutes, 2hrs, and 24 hrs periods. However, were these set points temperature compensated? and if so, was it a negative or positive compensation? Example: I want to keep electrolyte specific gravity above 1.15 (roughly 40% SOC) as this has a freeze point of about 5 deg F. So voltage for a lead acid battery at room temperature at 40% SOC is about 12 volts (open circuit, at rest) Just looking at this chart, and applying the same voltage ratio to a battery at 40% SOC, I'm seeing a set point of 11.8 v for a battery at rest at 5 deg F. But this doesn't account for discharge rate, and I don't know whether to fudge voltage up or down based on discharge rate at low temps. Basically I want set points that protect the battery, but aren't overly conservative. Anyone have a temperature compensation chart (or coefficient) that applies to different Discharge rates? -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Zomeworks Cool Cell
….after 7 years. Wrenches, Have any of you used the Zomeworks Cool Cell battery enclosures? I would like to hear about their effectiveness, especially if you have used them in a very hot, dry climate. What maintenance is required? Zomeworks says on their website that one location kept the battery/equipment 41° below ambient. The customers site is a remote desert location with ambients up to 118°. The only access is by helicopter so I want to compare the total cost verses replacing batteries more frequently. I have built a few remote power systems here in the desert with Hoffman boxes and added some shading on sides and tops (pic). I used Sun Xtenders in these and they are still performing after 7. Thank you, Larry Crutcher ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Arcing from inside Trace DR2412
Hi Benn, Over the years I have seen several of the DR inverters burn up near the transfer switch, or perhaps the switch. I've never dug into the chars to determine what actually failed. I would replace that relic before the inevitable happens. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 27, 2014, at 3:36 PM, Benn Kilburn b...@skyfireenergy.com wrote: Wrenches, An off-gridded (system installed by others) called me yesterday with a concern. His system is older and has had mods added over the years. It is up to 7x Siemens SP75 and 1x She'll SQ80P. I believe the inverter is the original. It is a Trace DR2412, and where the concern stems from. He says he has noticed an arc from inside the inverter about 3 of the last 8 times he has fired up his generator (remote start next to inverter). He described seeing the arc thru the vent fins on the top right of the inverter. Is this internal arc typical when a generator connects to the inverter and he just hasn't noticed it before? ...or is his ol Trace toast? Thanks, benn Sent from a 'smart' phone, with touch screen keys. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Uni-Solar, Kaneka…now Panasonic?
Wrenches, What high performance PV modules are being sold in the US? I can't find Panasonic modules anymore. I have written to them twice but they can't direct me to any distribution in the US. They insist that Sunwize will have them but Sunwize says they have no plans yet to purchase again. From what I can tell, the next best thing is Sunpower modules with -0.38% /K temp coefficient. Are there any others to consider? Larry Crutcher ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Uni-Solar, Kaneka.now Panasonic?
Dave and August, I'm looking for high performance (capturing the most energy), not high necessarily high efficiency (using less space). Efficiency would be a bonus, though. LG are just average performance. Example: Uni-Solar was one of the lowest efficiency modules ever made but holds the record for highest performance. Thank you, Larry Crutcher On Mar 14, 2014, at 8:52 AM, August Goers aug...@luminalt.com wrote: Hi Larry, LG is selling Neon panels which are pushing 300 W for a 60-cell arrangement. My understanding is that they are sold out in the US but sooner or later more will be imported. Focused Energy is a distributor of them. http://www.lg.com/us/commercial/solar-panels SunPower is our workhorse high efficiency module. The new X series 335 and 345 are hard to beat. Best, August -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 8:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Uni-Solar, Kaneka.now Panasonic? Wrenches, What high performance PV modules are being sold in the US? I can't find Panasonic modules anymore. I have written to them twice but they can't direct me to any distribution in the US. They insist that Sunwize will have them but Sunwize says they have no plans yet to purchase again. From what I can tell, the next best thing is Sunpower modules with -0.38% /K temp coefficient. Are there any others to consider? Larry Crutcher ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Uni-Solar, Kaneka.now Panasonic?
Thanks for your reply August. I'm quite surprised that you have two Uni-Solar systems not performing well. Third party testing consistently proved them the top performer. (eg. Santa Cruz and Tucson sites) With my experience both on and off grid, I am convinced. Panasonic was great because, in addition to performance, it also had very high efficiency. In my world of cramming 2kW+ PV arrays on the roof of an RV or boat, that is also a necessity. Example: Here's todays job; the last of my Panasonic stock, 1410 Watts on a 40' coach. No possible way to do this with standard 60 cell modules.Bottom line for me is, someone has abest and worst performing PV module just like someone has the most efficient. Glad to hear your SunPower installs areproducing above expectations. That's probably what I will go with.LarryOn Mar 14, 2014, at 9:50 AM, August Goers aug...@luminalt.com wrote:Hi Larry,It sounds like you are talking about the temperature coefficient or energyyield per kW-peak? Uni-Solar was great on paper but I'm not so sure aboutreal world performance. We have a couple of Uni-Solar systems installed awhile back and they are not doing so well in the real world. Companieskeep coming to me over the years claiming that their modules harvest morekWh per kW peak and it is really hard to keep everything straight.Certainly the PTC ratings help in comparison to STC. Then there are paperslike this from SunPower claiming 8 to 10% more energy per Watt:http://www.solarips.com/admin/content/uploads/SunPower_Yield_Report_BEW.pdfSunPower also claims that their modules degrade less annually compared toothers.And here's a doc comparing PV module performance measurements:http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build05/PDF/b05047.pdfEach year we try to compare the actual monitored performance of oursystems compared to our as-built production estimates at time of theinstallation completion. In general, I've found that both SunPower andother standard efficiency modules seem to outperform the normal PV-Wattscalculation by 7 to 10%. In 2012 our systems were averaging about 17%above our estimates! I haven't seen a huge difference between SunPower andstandard efficiency modules. Furthermore, I haven't seen the performancegains that microinverter manufacturers are claiming compared to stringinverters. I admit that our informal comparison is not perfectlyscientific because there are simply too many variables that we don'tcapture. My main concern is material and or workmanship degradation inmodules over the long haul. Only time will tell.Best,August___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Purchasing SunPower modules
It looks like SunPower will only sell direct to authorized dealers. Are there any SunPower distributors that can sell to non-authorized dealers? Thank you, Larry ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium ion
Todd, Lithium batteries offer many distinct benefits over lead acid. Life, weight, size, time to charge and more. For me, it is market specific. Our primary business is designing, installing and servicing large power systems in recreational vehicles. Hundreds of our customers only use the RV seasonally by coming to SW Arizona to escape winter. When they go home, they leave the RV in storage for 6 months, not healthful for batteries. Our other customers are off grid residents n Mexico (US and Canadians mostly). They, too, are seasonal and leave their homes for 6 months or more. I regularly recycle over 30,000 pounds of batteries at our store and I'm only open for 6 months per year! Most customers that come in for batteries have damaged theirs in just a few years. The frequent culprit: deficit charging. A Lithium battery will not be harmed by under charging, they never need to reach 100% SoC, or leaving for long periods partially charged. You can disconnect the battery at 60% SoC and leave it for a year and it will be ready to use again when you turn it back on. I am fully committed to offering LFMP batteries as a lead acid replacement for RV's and off grid homes. Larry On Feb 27, 2014, at 7:24 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: not trying to be dumb here, but what's the attraction to lithium ion batteries? todd On Thursday, February 27, 2014 3:44pm, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com said: Jay, I'm an authorized dealer of GBS systems and we stock and sell them here in our retail store. I can build any voltage bank in 12 volt increments. All our systems include EMS computer, cell level balancing, temperature and SoC monitoring with over/under voltage protection. Basically a turn-key setup. We tested CALB for a while and tried to get other lithium brands in but the distribution market in the USA is a horrible mess when it comes to Lithium batteries. I got frustrated after trying to communicate with importers and choose GBS because they had the best and most intelligent response to me. GBS batteries are LiFeMgPO4 or LFMP which is safer, won't catch fire. When comparing life cycles, LFMP is lower cost than any lead acid batteries. If you're interested, I can configure a system for you and get you discount cost for resale. Contact me off the board. Larry 928-342-9103 Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium ion
Ray, I had a 100AH battery for about 3 weeks of testing. I worked it hard. I even over discharged it once. It worked perfectly at different charge and discharge rates. The most interesting thing was that the 100Ah battery regularly provided 115AH at 95% DoD. I would sell the CALBS but, again, the US distribution is only through other dealers. There are several people importing them but they all teated me like the end user or consumer. For off grid use, the Lithium battery industry has a long way to go to make these mainstream. I hope to change that some. Larry On Feb 27, 2014, at 7:43 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: Larry; You mentioned you tested CALB batteries; what was your experience with them? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 2/27/2014 4:44 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Jay, I'm an authorized dealer of GBS systems and we stock and sell them here in our retail store. I can build any voltage bank in 12 volt increments. All our systems include EMS computer, cell level balancing, temperature and SoC monitoring with over/under voltage protection. Basically a turn-key setup. We tested CALB for a while and tried to get other lithium brands in but the distribution market in the USA is a horrible mess when it comes to Lithium batteries. I got frustrated after trying to communicate with importers and choose GBS because they had the best and most intelligent response to me. GBS batteries are LiFeMgPO4 or LFMP which is safer, won't catch fire. When comparing life cycles, LFMP is lower cost than any lead acid batteries. If you're interested, I can configure a system for you and get you discount cost for resale. Contact me off the board. Larry 928-342-9103 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Source for wire
Perhaps this? http://www.waytekwire.com/products/1461/Marine-Wire-Cable/--of-Conductors=2 Larry On Feb 28, 2014, at 5:54 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: Wrenches, Simple request, please: who carries 10/2 jacketed submersible cable, specifically to use with the Shurflo 9300 pump? Conventional pump suppliers don't carry it, as any pump with metal parts needs a third conductor for ground, and usually run 240V. The 9300 fits only 10/2 or 12/2 wire without ground and with flat jacketing. It must be flat-jacketed to seal to the cable gland. Thank you, Allan -- Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder, Positive Energy, Inc. A Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell www.positiveenergysolar.com ___ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium ion
Jay, I'm an authorized dealer of GBS systems and we stock and sell them here in our retail store. I can build any voltage bank in 12 volt increments. All our systems include EMS computer, cell level balancing, temperature and SoC monitoring with over/under voltage protection. Basically a turn-key setup. We tested CALB for a while and tried to get other lithium brands in but the distribution market in the USA is a horrible mess when it comes to Lithium batteries. I got frustrated after trying to communicate with importers and choose GBS because they had the best and most intelligent response to me. GBS batteries are LiFeMgPO4 or LFMP which is safer, won't catch fire. When comparing life cycles, LFMP is lower cost than any lead acid batteries. If you're interested, I can configure a system for you and get you discount cost for resale. Contact me off the board. Larry 928-342-9103 On Feb 26, 2014, at 10:44 AM, Jay Peltz j...@asis.com wrote: Does anyone know of a distributor of lithium ion for re systems And recommended brands Thanks Jay Jay @asis.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Panasonic PV modules
Desperate here….Does anyone know where I can still purchase Panasonic PV modules? Any quantity. Thank you, Larry Crutcher (928) 342-9103 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] controllers
Hi Ron, I agree and share the frustration. I've been asking Rick at Blues Sky Energy for a few years to build an IPN network controller that can handle 100 volts input and 60 amps out. With the IPN Pro, the BSE controllers are the very best in battery monitoring and terminating charge based on AH returned. If Morningstar made their controllers less archaic to program, I would consider using them. I have not found anything agreeable that fits this gap in charge controllers. As you discovered, the 3024iL can only handle one 60 cell module, unless you can find some 200 Watt modules. The next step is to the Midnite Classic which is a 96 amp CC. We uses lots of 60 and 72 cell modules on 12 volt systems. We have installed quite a few Classics but many of the systems are only 600 - 800 Watts. The problem I see for manufacturing is the price point. A 40 amp BSE controller is about $350 and the Midnite Classic is about $520 (online prices). A $170 spread does not leave much room to built a 60 amp IPN network controller. But I WOULD buy them by the dozen, if only…. Larry On Feb 20, 2014, at 3:49 PM, RM You solarea...@solareagle.com wrote: Anybody have any recommendations for a 45a MPPT controller other than Morningstar? I’ve had absolutely miserable tech support from Morningstar so I want to drop the line but I need something that will handle 2 60 cell modules in the 250w range for off grid applications. I use a Blue Sky for single panels and a Midnite Classic for three or more but in the middle the only one I can see is the Morningstar. Outback, Midnite and Xantrex are all overkill for just a couple of panels unless they want to expand in the future. Ron ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Midnite solar Charge controllers
Jerry,People do like to touch stuff. One of the benefits of the Midnite controllers is you can remove the MNPG after programming and the user can not alter any settings. Some customers need this type of interference. Here's a picture of a thermal runaway in an AGM battery after a customer, while playing with a charge controller program, turned the voltage up to 3 Vpc.Larry On Feb 17, 2014, at 9:06 PM, Jerry Shafer jerrysgarag...@gmail.com wrote:Has anyone had an issue with Midnite solar Charge controllers loosing programming. I have had Out back FM 80 do this and it was an software issue they fixed it. Now I have the same thing with midnite either that or the customer is messing with it and this is also a good possibility but before I go there I want to confirm with you all out there. The issue from Outback is if the CC is powered down on both sides it will loose memory, I cant confirm this as the customer is away and I cant get on site but we have Nickle Iron batteries that require high charge voltage to charge at all and it seams to not maintain the charge voltage setting. Thanks Jerry___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Back feed from Radian.
Ditto Tom, seen this too often in Mexico. I carry a manometer to make check the pressure at the LP input to the generator with the engine running. Make sure it is at/above 11 WC when it starts to act up. If the regulator is at the tank, long vapor runs can cause too much pressure loss. Larry On Feb 17, 2014, at 1:36 PM, Tom Duffy t...@thesolar.biz wrote: Hi Guys We have had “icing” problems here in Central America as well where the gas company put in ½’ pipe to a 12K Gillette Generator, same description the gen would initially start and run fine but then it went erratic the Radian didn’t like it, the customer wanted to blame the Radian (I was sure it wasn’t) The installer/dealer couldn’t figure it out. I went out and immediately saw the small pipe, plus they had bent a crimp into the incoming fuel line as well. ¾” line fixed the whole thing. LP has a lot of moisture and will always have delivery problems with funky installation of pipe. Seems that a lot of gas guys just hook up kitchen ranges (Here) Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer image002.png E-Mail: t...@thesolar.biz Panama Office: 507-6126-1253 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Solenoid Coil Current
...600 Watt HOURS per day…. It must be active 24/7. If deactivated, the battery is disconnected. Thanks but this is irrelevant now since I found a 500 amp solenoid that only consumes 41 WH per day. Larry On Feb 13, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Jerry Shafer jerrysgarag...@gmail.com wrote: OK So if you only have the 600 watts per day when you are either on shore power or on a genny can you design the system to not be needed when they are off and kill that load Jerry On Feb 13, 2014 11:51 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: Hi Jerry, The no-fault condition from the CPU is +12Vdc. A fault causes 0 volts. These are the contactors I plan to use: http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70062412 Larry On Feb 13, 2014, at 12:38 PM, Jerry Shafer jerrysgarag...@gmail.com wrote: So Ian clear does the fault activate the relay or does the absence of the fault activate the relay because its usually best to have a absent or no fault hold the relay on and if anything fails as a the relay will rest this can be done with motorized on or contactor high load switch, you should also look at the switch AIC rating also Jerry___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Solenoid Coil Current
Hi Jerry, The no-fault condition from the CPU is +12Vdc. A fault causes 0 volts. These are the contactors I plan to use: http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70062412 Larry On Feb 13, 2014, at 12:38 PM, Jerry Shafer jerrysgarag...@gmail.com wrote: So Ian clear does the fault activate the relay or does the absence of the fault activate the relay because its usually best to have a absent or no fault hold the relay on and if anything fails as a the relay will rest this can be done with motorized on or contactor high load switch, you should also look at the switch AIC rating also Jerry On Feb 11, 2014 4:43 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: Hello Wrenches, We're preparing to offer Lithium batteries to some of our customers as a replacement to lead acid in recreational vehicles. RV batteries can have multiple charge sources simultaneously so I have worked out protective circuitry to interface with a EMS computer. To insure failsafe operation, I need to install 2 solenoids that will be active 24/7, opening only when fault conditions are met. The solenoids I have looked at (200 amp) have a coil current of about 1 ampere each which equates to 600Wh daily consumption. I'de like to reduce that BUT the computer only provides a +12v or 0 volt state. Does anyone know of a latching solenoid that will work with a 12v hi/lo voltage state, OR an interface or circuit for hi/lo to control latching relay OR a solenoid with a very low quiescent current when on? Many thanks in advance, Larry Crutcher ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lead-selenium tubular plate batteries
Hi Allan, FYI, their data sheet shows cycle life at 50% DoD is 1850 or 5 years. The 20 year life is probably for standby use. I looked at these many years ago but I have not tried these because of price. Larry On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:27 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: Has anyone tried these? This is my first awareness of them. http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/companies/sbs-battery/products/stt-opzs-series-flooded-tubular-batteries Description: 20 year Lead-Selenium Tubular Plate Batteries: 12V 55-165Ah, 6V 220-330Ah, 2V 110-3585Ah Best to ask here first! Thank you, Allan -- Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder, Positive Energy, Inc. A Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell www.positiveenergysolar.com ___ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Solenoid Coil Current
Pure genius, Dan. Exactly what I needed. You are truly an asset to the Wrench board. Thanks Frank for the tip on the MOSFET. Good to hear from you. Thank you, Larry Crutcher On Feb 11, 2014, at 6:16 PM, Exeltech exelt...@yahoo.com wrote: Larry, A latching relay isn't suitable for fail-safe applications. Look into the Kilovac Czonka III EV200HAANA. This series has a coil economizer that reduces coil current (and thus power consumption) after pull-in. Rated coil power is less than 2 watts. Models are good to 900Vdc and up to 500A. Coil inrush current on one model I found is spec'd at 3.8 A for a 130 milliseconds, so you'd need an external transistor to drive it from the computer. If power consumption is a critical aspect, use a suitable MOSFET. If you don't mind wasting another watt or two, a bipolar NPN will also work. The coil current throttles back to less than 100 mA at 12Vdc after contact closure. Because a specialized electronic power supply is driving the coil, Kilovac rates the DC input to the coil driver at anything from 9Vdc to 36Vdc. Here's the Allied page: http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70062411 Not cheap .. but excellent quality. If you're a registered reseller with Allied, the $ is less. Dan On Tue, 2/11/14, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Solenoid Coil Current To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Tuesday, February 11, 2014, 6:43 PM Hello Wrenches, We're preparing to offer Lithium batteries to some of our customers as a replacement to lead acid in recreational vehicles. RV batteries can have multiple charge sources simultaneously so I have worked out protective circuitry to interface with a EMS computer. To insure failsafe operation, I need to install 2 solenoids that will be active 24/7, opening only when fault conditions are met. The solenoids I have looked at (200 amp) have a coil current of about 1 ampere each which equates to 600Wh daily consumption. I'de like to reduce that BUT the computer only provides a +12v or 0 volt state. * Does anyone know of a latching solenoid that will work with a 12v hi/lo voltage state, * OR an interface or circuit for hi/lo to control latching relay * OR a solenoid with a very low quiescent current when on? Many thanks in advance, Larry Crutcher ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] morning star ts-mppt-60-600
Hello William, There is a hassle factor with the Morningstar MPPT controllers. If you need a custom charge setting, and I do most of the time, then you must download and install software, use a RS-232 data cable, and reprogram settings from a Windoz PC. That's SO 1980's!. We don't sell many Morningstar controllers because many of our battery systems are Lifeline, Sun Xtender or FullRiver AGM batteries. None of the DIP switch settings are right for those batteries. Also, none are right, but close, for Trojan or Crown batteries which we also sell. Besides that, I left the world of Microsoft many moons ago and I also can't find my DB9 cables anywhere. Larry On Feb 12, 2014, at 12:50 PM, will...@millersolar.com wrote: Hello again: Anyone have any experience with these charge controllers? How about the meter? Thanks so much for all of the help. William Miller ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] morning star ts-mppt-60-600
OK, so you need a PC, an internet connection, a router, download and install software, network PC to router, plug in CC, connect PC to the controller, then you can change parameters. Got it…..still say hassle. There is no doubt the controllers are feature laden and most of their smaller controllers that we have sold have not failed. most. On a positive note, they are great about warranty. Larry On Feb 12, 2014, at 2:49 PM, James Jefferson Jarvis j...@aprsworld.com wrote: The Morningstar TriStar MPPT 60 and the 600 volt 60 amp both have ethernet built in. Yes, you use their MSVIEW software, but no you don't need an RS-232 cable. The MSView software allows you to easily load previously developed settings and to easily save and print those settings. After putting lots of Morningstar products at remote site, I found found them not to crash, glitch, reset, or do anything besides work. I've found the built-in communications (using industry standard Modbus) to be excellent and easy to manage. I've not found any other charge controller manufacturer that has unified software across their whole product line, a unified communications standard, and the level of built-in monitoring the Morningstar products have. I'll take RS-232, RS-485, or Ethernet any day over proprietary stuff that doesn't work. I don't have any vested interest in Morningstar. I've just spent a lot of time developing monitoring and control software to work with all manners of different equipment. And when I get my choice, I go with the Morningstar stuff because I know it works well. -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC www.aprsworld.com On 02/12/2014 03:31 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Hello William, There is a hassle factor with the Morningstar MPPT controllers. If you need a custom charge setting, and I do most of the time, then you must download and install software, use a RS-232 data cable, and reprogram settings from a Windoz PC. That's SO 1980's!. We don't sell many Morningstar controllers because many of our battery systems are Lifeline, Sun Xtender or FullRiver AGM batteries. None of the DIP switch settings are right for those batteries. Also, none are right, but close, for Trojan or Crown batteries which we also sell. Besides that, I left the world of Microsoft many moons ago and I also can't find my DB9 cables anywhere. Larry On Feb 12, 2014, at 12:50 PM, will...@millersolar.com mailto:will...@millersolar.com wrote: Hello again: Anyone have any experience with these charge controllers? How about the meter? Thanks so much for all of the help. William Miller ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 www.aprsworld.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] DC Solenoid Coil Current
Hello Wrenches, We're preparing to offer Lithium batteries to some of our customers as a replacement to lead acid in recreational vehicles. RV batteries can have multiple charge sources simultaneously so I have worked out protective circuitry to interface with a EMS computer. To insure failsafe operation, I need to install 2 solenoids that will be active 24/7, opening only when fault conditions are met. The solenoids I have looked at (200 amp) have a coil current of about 1 ampere each which equates to 600Wh daily consumption. I'de like to reduce that BUT the computer only provides a +12v or 0 volt state. Does anyone know of a latching solenoid that will work with a 12v hi/lo voltage state, OR an interface or circuit for hi/lo to control latching relay OR a solenoid with a very low quiescent current when on? Many thanks in advance, Larry Crutcher ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
Hi Bruce, Please explain feeding it properly. Charging any lead acid battery slowly actually preserves battery life. As long as you are achieving the recommended charge voltage (temperature compensated) for long enough time, and reaching 100% SoC regularly, you are caring for the battery. At 82kWh battery capacity and 6.5kW PV, the customer may have a hard time getting to 100%. You did not mention, but I HOPE you have a battery capacity meter in the system. It's mandatory if they want to care for the battery. Since the customer has a small generator, they need to realize the limitations and reduce their loads during generator time so you can use the full output. Larry On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:46 PM, br...@willpowerelect.com wrote: Hi All, 3 VFX 3648 2 FM 80 6.5 kw solar 12 kw generator PSX 240 on generator output and VFX stacking Mate 3 HUP 1690 ah System design considering 45 amp charge current from each VFX totaling 135 amps. (135 x ~55v = 7.42kw) Potential charge current from 2 arrays and FM 80's, 90 - 100 amps. On a good day, reasonable to expect 200+ amps? Have not been able to exceed 90 amps for more than 30 minutes, with the generator putting out about 9 kw before it's 70 amp 2pole breaker trips. L1 42 amps, L2 37 amps. 5 amps neutral. Load banked to 12.3 kw (51 amps @ 240v) resistive without breaker trip. I have had to dial back the maximum charge current in the Mate 3 to 12 amps each on two of the inverters (L1 and L2) and 8 on inverter 3 to keep the generator from tripping out when customer turns on the microwave or coffee pot. In effect, 42 amps charge @ 240 v = 7.6 kw. At the battery, I'm only seeing 80 amps of charge current. Running loads are typically less than 1 kw but there has been a of construction going on with chop saws and compressors creating annoying spikes that are easily handled by the inverters when the generator is off. I don't want to kill this new battery by not feeding it properly! I would have put in a larger generator, but the owner bought the 12 kw before deciding on the new battery. I thought the 12 would be merely adequate, but not so Any suggestions? Thanks! Bruce Fiero-RMI sigimg0.jpeg I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. T. Edison, 1931 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery venting issue
Allan, The primary concern should be the volume of gas discharge if over voltage occurs. This study helped me understand the risks: http://www.sonnenschein.org/Gassing.htm Quote from the study: Gassing according to IEC 896/2-Oct 95 @ 2.3v / cell within 30 days was measured @ 5mL/cell/ah while Overcharging @ 2.48v/cell caused 900m L / cell / ah within 30 days! Also heres a technical bulletin from CD that discusses how long a 2% concentration takes during overcharge. See document 41-6739: http://www.cdtechno.com/resource/support_doc.html Thank you, Larry Crutcher (928) 342-9103 www.starlightsolar.com la...@starlightsolar.com Retail Store Warehouse 2998 Shari Ave. Yuma, Az 85365 USPS Postal Mail Only 11881 S Fortuna Road, #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 On Feb 5, 2014, at 7:38 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: Wrenches, I need a bit of help here if you have it. Since 2002 we have installed somewhere between 30 and 35 systems with sealed batteries installed in manufactured enclosures, originally Outback enclosures and in recent years Midnite MNBE enclosures. At least ten of these have been indoors in one form or another - usually a laundry or mechanical room. Our battery of choice is Concorde SunXtender. We have only added mechanical ventilation (Zephyr Power-Vent to outside) if the battery enclosure itself is sealed. Nearly all of these have been permitted and inspected systems, and we have never had a problem with the inspectors. Of course, we always vent flooded systems to the outside, nearly always using a Power Vent fan. Now we have. An AHJ failed a system for lack of ventilation, and our attempts to resolve it have not been effective. The Chief Electrical Inspector has weighed in, and we are right at the point of filing a Request for Code Interpretation with the New Mexico Electrical Division Technical Advisory Panel. I have not wanted to just add ventilation to pass inspection because of the precedent doing so is likely to set for future installations. The GC on the job supports my attempts to push back, as do the homeowners. The Chief Inspector thinks that the 700 square foot unheated room in which our system is installed is a bedroom; it's actually a storeroom for the homeowners' collectible book home business. My request: please send me documented work by others establishing that PV systems with sealed VRLA batteries are used specifically because they are considered safe without venting to the outside. If you know of good online links, I could use them too. For example, the AHJ asked for a document stating that the batteries or the enclosure were specifically approved for this use in an indoor location. I can't - Midnite battery enclosures are simply listed to UL508A, which is industrial control panels and there's nothing specific to this application in the standard. To me this is a common-sense issue, but common sense doesn't cut it when needing to prove a procedure. Can anyone help? For what it's worth, or for those Wrenches with too much spare time, below is the text of the original defense of our installation that I sent to the AHJ. His response was that he's not an electrical engineer and this would have to be taken upstairs. For what it's worth, I'm not an EE either... My frustration is showing, I'm sure. Thank you for any links, reports or other resources you may be able to send my way. Allan Original Message Mr. [AHJ], I have done some research as followup to our discussion last week about battery venting for the [X] job. Here are several perspectives on the issue: The NEC Section 480.9(A) states only that Provisions shall be made for sufficient diffusion and ventilation of the gases from the battery to prevent the accumulation of an explosive mixture. At root, you are questioning whether ventilation of the batteries into the storeroom at the [X] home is sufficient under worst-case conditions. The NEC Handbook entries for Section 480.9(A), which are considered as explanatory support documentation and are not Code requirements, include two paragraphs that are fundamentally contradictory to each other. The two read: The intent of 480.9(A) is not to mandate mechanical ventilation. Hydrogen disperses rapidly and requires little air movement to prevent accumulation. Unrestricted natural air movement in the vicinity of the battery, together with normal air changes for occupied spaces or heat removal, normally is sufficient. If the space is confined, mechanical ventilation may be required in the vicinity of the battery. This paragraph refers to batteries in general, including flooded batteries which release hydrogen gas as a normal part of the charging process. The Handbook section goes on to specifically identify sealed batteries as being unlikely to release explosive gases: Although valve-regulated batteries are often referred to as sealed, they actually emit very small quantities
Re: [RE-wrenches] 72-cell modules
Does anyone know where to still purchase Panasonic modules since Sunwize no
longer carries them?
Larry
On Feb 3, 2014, at 2:28 PM, Kirk Herander k...@vtsolar.com wrote:
Panasonics are longer available through Sunwize. That’s what my rep just told
me. They had trouble selling them due to the higher cost.
Kirk Herander
VT Solar, LLC
dba Vermont Solar Engineering
NABCEPTM Certified Inaugural Certificant
NYSERDA-eligible Installer
VT RE Incentive Program Partner
802.863.1202
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tump
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2014 11:43 AM
To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 72-cell modules
contact me of list for contact at sunwize if you need to but thats where I got
my replacements last month,
On Feb 3, 2014, at 10:51 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
Does anyone have a source for Panasonic modules, in other than pallet quantity?
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder, Positive Energy, Inc.
A Certified B CorporationTM
3209 Richards Lane
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell
www.positiveenergysolar.com
On 2/3/2014 4:28 AM, Tump wrote:
The Sanyo/panasonic are a bit smaller, just need to reduce rail width drill
holes but thats what I am doing.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] MC 3 cables
Chris, We still build MC3 cables here. Larry 928-342-9103 On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Chris @ The Oasis i...@oasismontana.com wrote: Dear people: I have a customer with some older Sharp modules, and he's in need of four 35' PV cables with MC3 connectors. Does anyone have a line on them? Please feel free to contact me offlist. Sincerely, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com (e-mail - i...@oasismontana.com)___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Static shock
Hello Jay, I'm in Yuma, Az where humidity is often under 5% and static discharge is a severe pain in the….finger. Curious person that I am, I once measured the distance of a static arc to estimate the voltage being generated from my lamb skin slippers sliding on carpet. My best guess is it was above 20kV. So, he may be experiencing quite a static shock but his mind is relating it to the PV solar gear. A simple test is to hold onto the wire after the initial discharge. If the shock stops, it was static discharge. Thank you, Larry Crutcher On Jan 24, 2014, at 6:56 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: Hi all, Here is a new question. I believe it's static electricity. System: standalone 2 x 44voc 165 watt modules in parallel Powering a pump sq flex( yea installer didn't do it right) dry ground. No batteries or any other power in the area, no LCB or other electronics. Pole mount, dpw in concrete with galvy pole Wires are not attached to pole/ rack in any way It's been very low humidity 5-10%, with 10-20 mph wind No rain totally dry Here is what happened. Person with one hand touched pole and and other hand touched the USE-2 insulated wire from the modules, got way shocked. Checked the wire no cracks etc and again 44voc max Happened a second time, but this time his sleeve brushed the pole while he was moving the wires, again shocked. Again, I think it's static as I have no other explanation. This kind of weather is unknown where I live. I now live in a true desert vs a rain forest and never moved. Thoughts? Thanks Jay Peltz power ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback 200 RE
Jerry (and Chris), I can't agree that there is nothing better than FLA batteries. It depends on may factors. For example, many of our customers are only using their system seasonally. When away for up to 6 months, an AGM or GEL battery will be far superior unless you have a knowledgable person servicing the bank every month. If your customer is not fully dedicated to understanding and then actually caring out all the requirements of owning a flooded bank (watering, equalizing, keeping a log book, testing, cleaning, …), then I would not suggest FLA. Chris, designing and installing battery based systems require lots of understanding. You will likely be the one educating your customer and resolving problems for many years. The single most important item to install in any off grid system is a battery capacity meter. Its like a fuel gauge so you can see what you are doing with your battery bank. Check out Blue Sky Energy and Bogart Engineering. Suggesting Rolls (very high quality) and Interstate (cheapest battery from JC) in the same sentence…well, that just made my teeth hurt. Larry On Jan 18, 2014, at 7:21 PM, Jerry Shafer jerrysgarag...@gmail.com wrote: My mistake nothing better then FLA vented, I would stay away from centurians I have had a lot of premee failures, rolls, interstate and the big boys Hawker can last 20 years. Also nickel iron no not metal iron cost alot but you should never need to replace them my last set was 35k for 900 amps Jerry On Jan 18, 2014 4:20 PM, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.com wrote: This is for an off-grid system. On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 8:07 PM, Jerry Shafer jerrysgarag...@gmail.com wrote: For for grid tie system l I would only use AGM weather it be interstate or rolls and amps per buck is better over time Jerry On Jan 18, 2014 3:16 PM, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.com wrote: We don't do a lot of off-grid systems so I am short on experience with battery systems. I have a 8KW Radian system for which I am considering Rolls Surrette or Outback 200RE AGM batteries. I know people like the Surrettes, what is the experience with the outback battery system? -- Chris Mason ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Deka AGMs
August, I should have clicked your link first. Those are Unigy batteries and can easily last 20 years in standby. I would take the time to perform discharge tests on those. Sorry for any confusion. Larry On Jan 6, 2014, at 1:59 PM, August Goers aug...@luminalt.com wrote: All Battery Wrenches, I’m servicing an existing battery backup system with some big Deka AGM battery banks. I believe they are about 12 years old. Does anyone have any general comments about Deka batteries? Any suggestions about how I would test these would be greatly appreciated. Here’s a link to the product: http://www.dekabatteries.com/default.aspx?pageid=366 Thanks, August Luminalt ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Sick pack
Bill, This sounds like an ideal customer for AGM or GEL batteries. Far more efficient and no maintenance required. One thing for sure, I would check the programming of the Trimetric. You can undercharge a battery and never know it if the configuration is not done properly. Make sure to calculate and use P1, P2 and P14 to determine SoC. Larry On Dec 19, 2013, at 9:23 PM, frenergy frene...@psln.com wrote: Tump, Larry, Tom, Ray, Steve... First off this pack is a 2.3 hour round trip drive from here, it's winter so most of the charging would be her AC genny, the customer is in her 80's. She has been recording SG's but I discovered she would take them without regard to battery SOC reflected in her Trimeteric, so they are useless. I did not check SG's while I was there though I started the generator soon after I arrived to try and do just that, but it was taking too long to get to even just 28 volts much less some fully charged voltage for a couple hours. From all your responses, my sense is to install a new pack. Part of me loves the challenge of trying tosave a pack that's on the edge of a (sulfated) cliff. However, she is not capable of some of the tasks required those times when I'm not there (watering cells, adjusting voltage settings according to SG response to long charge times, monitoring temps to prevent a catastrophe, etc) This could evolve over the course of what would easily be days, probably weeks of culling/moving batts around in the pack, swapping cables, adjusting set points, swearing. The cost to benefit ratio probably doesn't add up. Thanks for slapping me upside the head on this one. Bill ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Cycle Life
Ray, To question 2: I find Rolls batteries to be outstanding. Our oldest banks are over ten years now and trouble free. I can say the same about Crown CR-390 batteries if your doing comparisons. Can't say that about Trojan and defiantly not Deka AGM's (run away!). The 80% DoD thing is a poor way of measuring battery cycle life in RE systems. If your only talking about floor scrubbers, sure, use 80%. But for RE purposes, a 15% to 30% discharge is more realistic. Who discharges to 80% daily? More importantly, who would design such a system? Perhaps 80% DoD is useful for some but I sure wish we had a more realistic standard for the RE world. (Did I vociferate?) Larry https://www.crownbattery.com/applications/renewable-energy-systems On Dec 18, 2013, at 2:28 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: Hi; I was just doing some cost comparisons of different batteries for a customer. I found that on Rolls website, they've apparently upgrade their cycle life of the S5000 series to 2100 cycles (or more) at 80% DOD. It has been 1500 cycles at 80% DOD for quite a while, so: Question 1, what new technology is Rolls now employing in their batteries to boost cycle life by 40% from before? Question 2, are folks' real world experiences in line with that incredible best in the business claim. Question 3, at what rate of charge and discharge are cycle life tests normally done. Can companies exaggerate their cycle life, by running the tests at 100 hr discharge rate, for instance. Question 4, Is there any independent confirmation/ testing being done? Off List replies are fine, for those of you not wanting to publicly share your experiences. Thanks, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] small side pole mount needed
Does anyone have an extra Sunwize part # 950sw5/10mtassy (Item No. 008064) that you can part with? Please reply off list to la...@starlightsolar.com Thank you, Larry Crutcher (928) 342-9103 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Micro inverters not on the roof.
William, If your Vmp drop is under 2% (my design goal for maximum acceptable loss) I can't see any reason why not. Larry On Dec 17, 2013, at 3:00 PM, William Miller will...@millersolar.com wrote: Friends: I am reworking an existing off-grid system to become a grid-tie with micro-inverters. With your help, we have already determined that the M-190 inverters will work and we have acquired the 9 of them we need. Since the installation was completed in 1996, the home owner has installed a shade cover over a skylight. Some of the supporting structure is preventing us from getting under the modules to install the M-190s. Each module was fed to the equipment cabinet since the combiner was located there. I have decided it will be much easier to install the M-190s in the equipment cabinet. We have everything we need there: The individual PV leads (in 10AWG), the breaker panel and room to mount the inverters. Can any of you see any reason why the M-190s can’t be installed no on the roof? Thanks in advance, William image002.jpg 17395 Oak Rd. Atascadero, CA 93422 www.millersolar.com 805-438-5600 voice ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Heart Interface Idle Draw
Brian, We often have customers that don't want to loose programming for their satellite receiver. To reduce tare loss and the parasitic drain on a large inverter, we install a 100 Watt dedicated inverter, about $20, to keep the sat receiver going 24/7. We do the same thing for small refrigerators. William, As for 28 year old batteries, I MUST know more. How did you verify the age? What make/model? Not knowing the history, I would not trust SG readings to determine condition. I have heard and seen all kinds of strange things done to batteries including dumping out old electrolyte and refilling, adding acids, salt water, aspirin, other chemicals and so on. Please tell us more. Larry On Dec 10, 2013, at 2:10 AM, Brian Teitelbaum bteitelb...@aeesolar.com wrote: ... The satellite unit may lose its programming when switched off which is a major hassle, so your client may not want to put it on a switch. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 7:56 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Heart Interface Idle Draw Friends: I have a client with 28 year old batteries. They are in great shape with excellent specific gravity. I have no idea why they have lasted so long. We recently pulled an old Heart HF series inverter and installed an Outback VFX3524 inverter. Coincidentally the client purchased a new flat screen TV and satellite receiver. The client reports generally lower battery voltages since the install. I am trying to figure out if it is the inverter or the TV. Does anyone know the idle draw of the HF series inverter? This information would help me troubleshoot this problem. Thanks in advance. William ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote monitoring for off-grid system
Davis, If you are using 24 volts, Blue Sky Energy has a remote monitor product as well, the UCM module. It has ethernet and MODBUS RS-485 built in. With BSE IPN controllers you can have up to 240 amps charge current, full remote programing for controllers and monitor the PV solar arrays and battery bank. 128 days of data logging and more. One valuable feature of the BSE controllers with the IPN Pro is the ability to end charging based on net battery current. It will stay at the absorb voltage for only as long as necessary which means never overcharging BUT can stay in absorb all day if necessary. I don't think any others controllers do this. If you're not familiar with Blue Sky Energy, we have sold many hundreds of their controllers and I highly recommend them. Check out http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com/products/details/ucm Larry On Dec 5, 2013, at 2:03 PM, Davis Terrell da...@mckernongroup.com wrote: Hi Wrenches, I am evaluating remote monitoring solutions for an off-grid project and wanted to get any feedback people were willing to share. I see my three main choices as Outback, SMA Sunny Island, or an XW system, the first two of which I have a good bit of experience with. It looks like the only good remote options for Outback are 3rd party which I couldn’t get much info on, despite emails to the manufacturers. Anyone have any experience with GreenHouse Gas and Electric dataloggers? A Sunny Island with a Webbox and Sunny Portal seems the most straightforward, but doesn’t have real-time data. I stumbled upon the Connext Combox on the Schneider site and it looks like a great product, but I am a little wary. What comments I did find out about it online weren’t very favorable. And it looks like setting it up for remote access is not very straightforward. Thanks for any thoughts/experiences! Davis Terrell Project Manager Green Earth Energy da...@mckernongroup.com office: (802) 247-1200 mobile: (802) 989-1661 ___ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Safely inducing arc fault and ground fault in a completed array
Carl, Assuming about 400 volts, a 40k ohm resistor from PV negative to ground should trip the ground fault. Solder up to some test leads, insulate the resistor and make the short. You'll only be conducting about 2 Watts through the resistor. Arc fault, on the other hand, can be very complex. Series, parallel, inter string and more, pulsed, constant, varying intensity…..it get's beyond my understanding quickly. I'll bow out here and defer to others that are far more educated. Larry On Nov 25, 2013, at 2:04 PM, Carl Adams swingjun...@gmail.com wrote: Wrenches, We just completed an install with the SMA STP12000TL-US. I would like to induce two fault conditions into the system 1) ground fault, and 2) arc fault, in a manner that is both safe to equipment and personnel, in order to see how these units respond to those conditions, and in particular how the arc fault is cleared, after detection. (assuming it is detected) Any suggestions appreciated. With Regards Carl Adams NABCEP 031508-1 SunRock Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Safely inducing arc fault and ground fault in a completed array
Hey Dan, My assumption was that the GFI will work and it will only be milliseconds of short circuit. Your idea is good in case the GFI fails to open. The 2W load was a typo from my first calculation using 80k ohm. I forgot to change it when It dawned on me that might not produce enough current to trip the circuit. I often weld small beads with a single 90 volt Kaneka PV module to demonstrate to a DIY customer just how dangerous it can be to do it wrong. At 400+ volts…be careful indeed! Larry On Nov 25, 2013, at 4:13 PM, Exeltech exelt...@yahoo.com wrote: Carl, #1: Under the conditions described by Larry below .. if by some chance the resistor somehow completes a circuit, you'll have up to 10 milliamps flowing through a 40K resistor, and in that case .. up to 4 watts dissipated. To be on the safe side, use a 10W rated resistor just in case there IS a completed circuit. If the array voltage is 500Vdc, use a 50K resistor. If it's 600V .. a 60K ... and so forth. Of greater importance is to ensure you use a resistor that's specified for the rated voltage. Most people aren't aware that resistors have a voltage rating. To be on the safe side, make sure the one you use for this task is rated for 2X the anticipated voltage you'll encounter. #2: Arc faults occur in a variety of forms. Larry did a good job describing them below. They can be manually created with varying degrees of difficulty. One fault to try to create (and the easiest of the list) would be the series fault. Separate a conductor (or connection) between two PV while the system is under load. I recommend using a matched pair of PV connectors with conductors attached, insert them between two PV, and use the conductors themselves as your break point (as opposed to using the existing connectors already on the PV). Separating PV connectors under load will damage the pins and render the connectors unusable if the metal melts (and it could). Be careful! Dan On Mon, 11/25/13, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Safely inducing arc fault and ground fault in a completed array To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Monday, November 25, 2013, 3:55 PM Carl, Assuming about 400 volts, a 40k ohm resistor from PV negative to ground should trip the ground fault. Solder up to some test leads, insulate the resistor and make the short. You'll only be conducting about 2 Watts through the resistor. Arc fault, on the other hand, can be very complex. Series, parallel, inter string and more, pulsed, constant, varying intensity…..it get's beyond my understanding quickly. I'll bow out here and defer to others that are far more educated. Larry On Nov 25, 2013, at 2:04 PM, Carl Adams swingjun...@gmail.com wrote: Wrenches, We just completed an install with the SMA STP12000TL-US. I would like to induce two fault conditions into the system 1) ground fault, and 2) arc fault, in a manner that is both safe to equipment and personnel, in order to see how these units respond to those conditions, and in particular how the arc fault is cleared, after detection. (assuming it is detected) Any suggestions appreciated. With Regards Carl Adams NABCEP 031508-1SunRock Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for supplier
Sunwize has 144 in stock in NY. Since the demise of UniSolar, these are now the highest performance PV modules you can buy. On Nov 21, 2013, at 3:24 PM, Tump t...@swnl.net wrote:Customer is interested in 12 Sanyo / Panasonic modules, who is selling them on the east coast? TiA. Tump t...@swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine Northern California207-832-7574Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May MAINE'S CHARTER NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" MAINE'S CHARTER Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" ___List sponsored by Home Power magazineList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange email address settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods
We buy from Waytek Wire, about $0.33 each for stainless. http://tinyurl.com/k32wwbx Larry Crutcher (928) 342-9103 www.starlightsolar.com la...@starlightsolar.com Retail Store Warehouse 2998 Shari Ave. Yuma, Az 85365 USPS Postal Mail Only 11881 S Fortuna Road, #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 On Nov 14, 2013, at 10:51 AM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: Where are you buying them from? I am so ready to move away from plastic zip ties. 59 cents is quite a bit, but that's actually doable. Last time I looked at SS ties, they were a couple bucks each. Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/14/2013 9:41 AM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: Bill.we have been using the Hellerman Tyton Sunbundler cable tiesThey are braided stainless steel wire with a UV resistant vinyl jacketWe have been getting them in quantities of 500 for approximately $.59 eachfor the 12 length tiesWe like them alotthey do not have any sharp edges and are easy to install Hope that helps Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Renewable Energy Systems www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-592-3958 o On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 7:46 AM, frenergy frene...@psln.com wrote: William, Billfrom another Bill, Two things: For the rest of us (maybe it's just me?!) that's still trying to figure out how (or why) to stuff a MC4 connector into conduit and my hesitation in using SS wire ties for fear of the sharp edges cutting or chaffing into cables, I'm open for advice. Any wire I use on the roof is rated for that type of service and I have some off-grid systems that have been in the sun for some 25 years where the wire still looks nearly new even when flexing it to look for checking/cracks. It seems the wire/insulation can take it, thus it seems like the key to wire management is to keep the wire from moving and off the roof, secured to the racking, thus not compromising the insulation. I know many on this list are way past this point in their installation skills. However my living in a county in the bush of just 20K folks, I haven't had the opportunity to install 100's of systemsyet. Again, I express my humble appreciation of experienced wrenches to help those of us working to install the tightest systems possible despite living in the boonies. Details on where to source appropriate SS wire ties (rounded edges?, plastic coated?) would be appreciated. My goto place for such things (Grainger) has regular SS wire ties that range from $1.50 to $3 each, but none that I can see that address the sharp edge issue...or is that an issue? Have people been using regular SS wire ties in the field for 10-20 years, behind a roof mounted array without any issues related to the wire ties? Thanks for your help and patience, Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax solar powered since 1982 - Original Message - From: Bill Loesch solar1onl...@charter.net To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 1:34 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods Hi William (and any other person who wishes to describe themselves as professional (designer, installer, etc.)), Please accept this note as confirmation that your evangelism on wire management has not fallen on entirely deaf ears. Additionally, I'm curious how the practice of requiring a ten year equipment warranty squares with the acceptance of plastic wire ties. Sincere thanks from one convert, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:41 PM, William Miller wrote: Bill: I respectfully disagree with your logic: Define perfectly installed. If your connections are tight and permanent and the conductors are protected from damage, you have a great chance of a reliable, safe lifetime of service. How can you guarantee that your leads will stay protected after the ties fail? Studies show that even UV resistant wire ties will fail well before the life expectancy of the system has expired. When the ties fail, your PV leads are hanging on the roof. Even before the ties fail, rodents can chew on them. Conduit was invented for a reason and we should be using it. I agree that arc-fault breakers will improve the situation, but I don't think any form of OCPD is a substitute for good wiring practices. I think wire protection is just as important on PV circuits as it is on any other high voltage circuit. Try getting away with wiring a rooftop air conditioning unit by tying the conductors to some metal framework with plastic ties and see how long it takes to get red-tagged by your local
[RE-wrenches] PV solar powered light poles
Wrenches, I'm looking for commercially produced PV solar powered light systems, the type that would be used to illuminate a parking lot. I would appreciate any recommendations or warnings. Email me directly: la...@starlightsolar.com Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] To stack or not to stack? Off-grid 240V
Hilton, Magnum Energy also has a single 4400 VA model, the MS4448PAE, that operates 120/240 split phase. It can provide 8500 Watts for 5 seconds and 40 amps (line to line) for 100ms. This might start the 3HP motor load assuming it is 240 volt induction motor and not a capacitor start. Also assuming no other high loads are operating. See if you can find out (letter code on motor) or test for the LRA of the motor. (Allan) Battery voltage dip is proportional to load/battery capacity. I install lots of Magnum product but I have not experienced voltage dip with large loads starting. Perhaps it was related to waveform and the CFL's. Magnum Energy products are designed and built in the uSA and have been the best and most reliable inverters that I have experienced so my vote is for Magnum. Larry On Oct 30, 2013, at 7:57 AM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: Hilton, Kevin's comments are well taken. To add a bit: Magnum are exceptionally easy to set up and program. The user interface is well designed. A few issues to be aware of from my experience: - All of our Magnum-based off grid systems have been single inverter. At 4 kW, a single inverter may not be enough for that particular 3hp motor - best to CYA with the customer on the possible need for a stacked pair. - Magnum allows a pretty wide voltage dip to accomplish surge capacity, so when the saw starts, expect lights to flicker. Our CF bulbs flicker when the refrigerator starts. Our trial with Apollo a couple of years ago was probably the single most negative experience with an inverter manufacturer of my career. Kevin's comment that the most basic programming required hooking up to a computer is accurate. The computer must have their proprietary software installed, and the hookup was necessary even to initiate an equalize charge from an AC source. We have several warranty replacement and takeout units on a shelf here, from two installations (including in my own home) where the equipment was replaced after being unable to get it to work reliably. Ultimately, Apollo agreed in writing to reimburse us for the cost to replace their equipment with another brand. They never came through. Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder, Positive Energy, Inc. A Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell www.positiveenergysolar.com -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Hilton Dier III Sent: October 29, 2013 6:48 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] To stack or not to stack? Off-grid 240V Hello Wrenches, I have an off-grid client with a 24V system and an old Xantrex SW4024. He wants 240VAC capability with enough oomph for sometimes making a cut with his 3 hp table saw without starting the generator. I am looking at Apollo, Magnum, and Outback inverters. I'm most familiar with Outback. I have a couple of installations out there with stacked 3.6 kW Outbacks. However, the Apollo marketing promises that their 3.2 kW inverter will start a 3 hp motor. Will it actually, and is this a good idea even if it can? I'd appreciate hearing about your experiences with 240V Apollo units, stacked Magnums, and stacked Outbacks. I know from experience that the Outbacks require some hundreds of dollars of extra fittings and electronics to make a proper stacked installation. How about Magnum? Any comments on reliability? Many Thanks, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Partner, Solar Gain LLC 453 East Hill Rd. Middlesex, VT 05602 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 12V battery charger
If you can wait, Magnum Energy has a stand alone, power factor corrected charger coming out. I've been bugging them for a couple years about it. Otherwise we have sold hundreds of Iota's. A 3 stage charger (with IQ) and voltage range can be adjusted internally. Not bad for the price. Larry On Oct 30, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Dave Palumbo d...@independentpowerllc.com wrote: Wrenches, I’m looking for a battery charger to augment an OutBack FX 2012 inverter/charger for a 12V off-grid system that could use shorter charging times during our cloudy late fall/winter periods in northern Vermont. Both the generator and the battery bank are amply sized as is the PV array. I have used Iota chargers in the past, but wondered if they are other options worth considering. Thanks, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 www.independentpowerllc.com Vermont Solar Partner 25 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Controller Adjustment?
Jeremy, This is often the scenario for many of my customers in Mexico: owners are absent for 5-8 months. Batteries will last longer if charged slowly at lower voltages. But, getting a full charge daily with a PV solar resource sometimes takes longer time than there is sunlight available. For this reason, I use an aggressive charge regime of higher voltages and longer absorption time on batteries that are daily cycled. However, higher voltage and long charge will shorten the life of batteries that are not being cycled or are shallow cycled. My advice is to reprogram the controller for 2.36 Vpc and absorb time of 1 hour. This voltage will prevent much water loss. If the bank is healthy, they can last for many months with these settings. Be sure to check and equalize if more than 0.015 SG cell to cell difference is detected over that time. Also equalize well before putting back in cycle use next time. Larry On Oct 28, 2013, at 3:37 PM, All Solar, Inc. allso...@scswifi.net wrote: Hello Is there any reason to adjust a charge controllers bulk or other settings if there will be very minimal loads on the battery bank for 5-6 months ? Just had a client ask me that about his new MN classic. Thank you Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Security on a ground mount?
Weld 'em in a steel frame. Even then, a battery operated cutoff tool will have the frames open in minutes. Height will really slow them down but make sure they can't back up a vehicle and pull the array down…...Yes, I have had that happen. Larry On Oct 24, 2013, at 1:37 PM, William Dorsett wmdors...@sbcglobal.net wrote: We’ve got a system to go up in the student ghetto in the middle of town, so of course we got drunks and little pirates. Height has always been a solution but requires a lot beefier (pronounced “expensive”) support pipes. What security measures does everyone recommend of a system that is low enough to unbolt? Thanks all. image002.jpg Bill Dorsett.vcf___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SunBandit Hybrid Solar Water Heater
That was one of my thoughts. It must be very advanced control to know when NOT to use utility power. Of course one could switch off the grid power….but then how well does it function without it? Just add a few more sub $1 per watt PV modules, a high efficiency electric water heater and let the inverters do the job. And of course there is always propane. If anyone installs one of these, let us know. Larry On Oct 3, 2013, at 6:16 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: Hi Jason I would only add that this continues the issue with single tank solar/ grid combos IE it's hard to make sure the heat is coming from solar, as the tank has the thermostat from the grid side as well. It's a solution still looking for a problem. Jay Peltz power On Oct 3, 2013, at 1:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski ja...@fafcosolar.com wrote: Anyone else getting inundated with SunBandit Hybrid Solar Water Heating System marketing emails? Any first impressions? Here are my initial thoughts: Pros - provides hot water in utility outages, no interconnection hassles, possibly easier permitting hurdles, eliminates moving parts in active SDHW systems Cons - no grid-tie, any excess energy produced is wasted, AHJs won't know how to categorize equipment for permitting and may chargesolar water heating and PV permits and inspections I haven't dug too deep, but one strange thing I think I saw on a spec sheet was that the micro-AC Grid (aka microinverter) is UL 1703. If that is the case, how does the PV continue to provide water heating in a utility outage? What I really don't understand is why there is a need for a microinverter at all? Why not just use a DC element? I guess a microinverter, despite minor efficiency losses, is cheaper than a load controller. Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar ___ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Kohler 20kW (Generator automatic disconnect)
Ray, I heard back from Kohler and they told me that the 20kW has no warranty if used off grid. They have 3 models for off grid use, 14RESA/L, 8.5RES and the 6VSG, which have an 18 month warranty. Do you know anything otherwise? Larry On Oct 1, 2013, at 8:16 AM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: Sounds like they need a 20 Kw Kohler. Hot Tub in the future? They'll love their Kohler. The Generac is just way too small to even consider IMHO. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 10/1/2013 8:11 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: William, Chris, Ray, Allan, et al. Gen support would be ideal but this inverter setup will be a quad pack of Magnum 4024PAE (120/240 split; 16kW). Their New MSH inverter is single phase only and can not be stacked. While disabling load(s) is the antithesis of the desired outcome, I'll review this possibility further. Using a separate charger could work but it would need to be about 200A @ 32V which would add quite a bit of cost and be hard to sell since the Magnum inverters already have 4 high quality charges included. A larger generator might be necessary if the customer won't agree to load shedding. Their plans are to expand the loads over time, operate a business, install a hot tube and more. Of course I have pushed the concept that conservation is paramount. The PV array and inverters are being oversized now for the future growth. My ideal solution...Since Magnum inverters monitor the AC input and control it based on quality of power, it seems to me that there could be a setting for disconnecting the AC input if loads exceed a setpoint. Change in control software would be great. Thank you, Larry ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator automatic disconnect
Ray, I had thought about this but it seems that with all inverters paralleled and controlled through the router that it would not allow one to charge and pass through the generator power while the others are inverting. Do you know a way of doing this. Larry On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:10 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: If they HAD to have the wee Generac, you could have it feed only one inverter, and the other 3 Magnums could stay in invert mode. I have large systems where I'm not using the charger off every inverter. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 10/1/2013 11:09 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: You are right. Normally I would not even consider a generator of this size. My constant thinking outside the box took me down this rabbit trail. I'm back. Thank you, Larry ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator automatic disconnect
If you mean automatic transfer, how would you trigger it since AC power will be present from both sources at the inverter output? Do you mean a N.C. contactor that would open on gen power, something like attached drawing?Larry On Oct 2, 2013, at 10:37 AM, Jay Peltz j...@asis.com wrote:What about running the genny through one inverter and putting a transfer switch on the AC out which opens the ac out.Meaning 100% charging but no loads.JaySent from my iPhoneOn Oct 2, 2013, at 9:50 AM, "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems" la...@starlightsolar.com wrote:Ray,I had thought about this but it seems that with all inverters paralleled and controlled through the router that it would not allow one to charge and pass through the generator power while the others are inverting. Do you know a way of doing this.Larry On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:10 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: If they HAD to have the wee Generac, you could have it feed only one inverter, and the other 3 Magnums could stay in invert mode. I have large systems where I'm not using the charger off every inverter. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator automatic disconnect
William, Chris, Ray, Allan, et al. Gen support would be ideal but this inverter setup will be a quad pack of Magnum 4024PAE (120/240 split; 16kW). Their New MSH inverter is single phase only and can not be stacked. While disabling load(s) is the antithesis of the desired outcome, I'll review this possibility further. Using a separate charger could work but it would need to be about 200A @ 32V which would add quite a bit of cost and be hard to sell since the Magnum inverters already have 4 high quality charges included. A larger generator might be necessary if the customer won't agree to load shedding. Their plans are to expand the loads over time, operate a business, install a hot tube and more. Of course I have pushed the concept that conservation is paramount. The PV array and inverters are being oversized now for the future growth. My ideal solution...Since Magnum inverters monitor the AC input and control it based on quality of power, it seems to me that there could be a setting for disconnecting the AC input if loads exceed a setpoint. Change in control software would be great. Thank you, Larry On Sep 30, 2013, at 4:14 PM, William Miller will...@millersolar.com wrote: Larry: Maybe a better approach might be to use an inverter with Gen-support. That is unless a system already exists that does not have this feature. Plan B: use the gen start signal to disable one or more of the larger loads. I know this is not what you asked for, just trying inject some different ideas. William -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 1:02 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator automatic disconnect Wrenches, I want to use the Ecogen 6kW generator on a large off grid system. The location has very few overcast or rainy days and the generator will rarely be needed. My concerns is nuisance tripping the generator output breakers if the household load exceeds 6kW. The power system control has a feature for reducing the AC current used to charge the batteries but does not have a feature for disconnecting the AC input based on input load. Does anyone have a solution for monitoring AC load from the generator and disconnect it if overloaded? It must automatically reconnect after a short timeout. Thank you, Larry Crutcher ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator automatic disconnect
You are right. Normally I would not even consider a generator of this size. My constant thinking outside the box took me down this rabbit trail. I'm back. Thank you, Larry On Oct 1, 2013, at 8:24 AM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: Agreed. We're all offering ways to work as well as possible with the wrong generator choice for this application. Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder, Positive Energy, Inc. A Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell www.positiveenergysolar.com On 10/1/2013 9:16 AM, Ray Walters wrote: Sounds like they need a 20 Kw Kohler. Hot Tub in the future? They'll love their Kohler. The Generac is just way too small to even consider IMHO. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 10/1/2013 8:11 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: William, Chris, Ray, Allan, et al. Gen support would be ideal but this inverter setup will be a quad pack of Magnum 4024PAE (120/240 split; 16kW). Their New MSH inverter is single phase only and can not be stacked. While disabling load(s) is the antithesis of the desired outcome, I'll review this possibility further. Using a separate charger could work but it would need to be about 200A @ 32V which would add quite a bit of cost and be hard to sell since the Magnum inverters already have 4 high quality charges included. A larger generator might be necessary if the customer won't agree to load shedding. Their plans are to expand the loads over time, operate a business, install a hot tube and more. Of course I have pushed the concept that conservation is paramount. The PV array and inverters are being oversized now for the future growth. My ideal solution...Since Magnum inverters monitor the AC input and control it based on quality of power, it seems to me that there could be a setting for disconnecting the AC input if loads exceed a setpoint. Change in control software would be great. Thank you, Larry ___ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Ever seen flooded battery charging parameters like this?
Eric, 30% of C is high for all flooded batteries I know of. I'd worry about the high temperatures and grid warping. Some AGM's can handle 5C charge without harm. Larry On Oct 1, 2013, at 11:10 AM, eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi Guys, Calling for 30% C for max charge current on flooded batt. Pretty aggressive don't you think? Even more strange is the spec for 2V cells. They call for 20% for flooded but only 15% for gel/AGM? usually gel/agms take HIGHER max charge rate than flooded don't they? Thanks, Eric _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 Mail Attachment.jpeg *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail eastpenndeka.zip___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Generator automatic disconnect
Wrenches, I want to use the Ecogen 6kW generator on a large off grid system. The location has very few overcast or rainy days and the generator will rarely be needed. My concerns is nuisance tripping the generator output breakers if the household load exceeds 6kW. The power system control has a feature for reducing the AC current used to charge the batteries but does not have a feature for disconnecting the AC input based on input load. Does anyone have a solution for monitoring AC load from the generator and disconnect it if overloaded? It must automatically reconnect after a short timeout. Thank you, Larry Crutcher ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] ECO GEN ALERT
It's good to see this response instead of the all to often not our fault excuse. Any chance they will pay for your time? Shipping? Larry Crutcher On Sep 28, 2013, at 7:22 AM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: Chris, Generac has stated that the Eco Gen will be replaced. Thank you for your help, and for the help of Frank Moreno who you notified of the issue. Best regards, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 06:34 PM 9/25/2013, you wrote: Drake, As a Generac service dealer, I brought your generator problem to the attention of Generac's managers. They had a couple of comments: 1) The activation issue sounds like a misunderstanding. Activation is only a data gathering process, I normally do it online ( https://www.activategen.com/ ). There is no reason why you could not do it on behalf of the customer. The activation reps do not handle service calls. 2) The oil hose issue should have resulted in a shutdown which would have been simple to remedy. There's no record of generators being damaged by this issue. However, if this is what happened, Generac is very good about warranty repair and would be very responsive. I would call the nearest Generac dealer and let them file a warranty claim. It does not matter that the generator was not purchased from the dealer, all dealers are required to handle warranty for any generator as they get paid to repair the units. Generac will advise the dealer how to proceed. You seem to indicate Generac did not want to replace the unit but I also get the feeling no tech has looked at the unit yet. You have to follow the process. Generac will determine the best course of action once they know the details. Feel free to pass on any issues you are having resolving this issue. I can get the service manager involved if you feel you are not getting adequate response but you do need to get a service dealer involved before any repairs or replacements can be discussed. Chris ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid LP Gen advice
Hi Wrenches, I've been looking for a distributor for the Generac Ecogen. The ones I contacted are about $300 higher than paying retail at Lowes. Is there a supplier that sells wholesale or discounts to dealers? Off list answer is fine. Thank you, Larry Crutcher la...@starlightsolar.com On Sep 15, 2013, at 8:56 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: What supplier are folks using for the Ecogen? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Who has the best overall solar racking solution?
Back in the 1980's we used a company called Baird (www.bairdmounts.com) to engineer NPR mounts for satellite communication antennas. I have used many of their products for antennas up to 5 meters and never a failure or problem. I have not used their mounts for PV solar but I expect their quality has endured. Larry On Sep 10, 2013, at 3:11 PM, Jay Peltz j...@asis.com wrote: Sub question/ Best ballasted flat roof rack? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Sep 10, 2013, at 1:04 PM, James Rudolph jamesrudolp...@gmail.com wrote: Greetings Fellow Wrenchies, With all the racking options out there today, are there any stand outs in terms of quality and installation time. We are in the process of evaluating our racking system and with all the options its a little mind boggeling. Mahalo in advance! James B Rudolph Heleakala Solar Director of Construction NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed ES Electrician ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist
William, I have a couple customers in a similar situation. The homes are Mexico and they need to operate mini split A/C for a few months. There is no space for increasing the PV array. Once the generator run time is balanced to maintain the batteries between 50% and 80% while also handling any heavy loads, the system can perform well daily. The downside is that this deficit charging will lead to early battery failure. The solution I use is to have a Full Charge Day bimonthly. The customer must operate the generator through the Bulk and Absorb charge and then start a short, high voltage equalization charge for about 2 hours followed by battery SG testing. This method is the best I could come up with and seems to be working well. During the other months, the PV system can keep up with consumption. I too am getting more large system requests. If space is not a problem, I install large PV arrays to minimize generator use. Larry On Aug 16, 2013, at 12:53 PM, William Miller will...@millersolar.com wrote: Friends: We have been receiving a flurry of requests for design of off-grid systems where the loads are enormous, relative to normal off-grid requirements. It is obvious that the size of PV and battery arrays to power these loads is beyond what is practical. We have dubbed these systems Generator/battery with PV assist, or PV assist for short. These systems will cycle batteries multiple times per day. It is my understanding that the extra battery cycels will shorten battery life. Since generator run is expected, we are willing to increase generator run time in order to prolong battery life. The parameters I suggest are an aggressive load start and a very high battery start parameter. This will prevent deep discharge of the battery bank. I know shallow discharge is not the norm, but I don't believe shallow cycling is a problem as long is it as at the top of the voltage window, i.e. the batteries achieve absorption at least once per day. We know a load start ciuld result in an abbreviated run time, curtailing absorption period, but we are assuming there will be a battery votage start at least once per day allowing full absorption. Has anyone else considered these issues, and what conclusions did you make I am looking forward to a spirited discussion as usual. I throuroughlyenjoy and beneift from them, even thought the advice is usually conflilcting. Thanks in advance. William Miller ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Tax credit question.
We install hundreds of RV power systems, as high as $18,000 cost, and tell all of our customers about the tax credit. Many have reported back that they were allowed the tax credit. No one has ever told me it was disallowed. Some customers are full time, some only use the RV occasionally. Larry On Jul 27, 2013, at 4:41 PM, Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com wrote: So, has anyone had a customer install a ITC eligible system on a second residence and claim the credit? Jesse ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Tri-Star MPPT
Jay, I saw that comment also. The more hardened lead sulfate becomes, the more resistant the battery is to the electrochemical process and therefore less current is drawn from the charge source. This decrease of load allows the charge voltage to rise more rapidly. This rapid rise is usually a first indicator of sulfated batteries. A healthy battery, charged at the proper rate, will always have a gradual, linear rise in voltage. Just FYI, I am a hands on guy and my experience with servicing batteries is somewhat unique to our wrench group having designed, installed and serviced many hundreds of battery systems. Lead sulfation and it's cause and prevention has been an interest of mine because it is so prevalent. Larry On Jul 23, 2013, at 9:32 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: Hi Eric, While agree with most all your assessments, Can you please elaborate on the sulfation causes the voltage not to climb? This is quite counter to what I have seen and what the battery people say? Thanks Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPad On Jul 23, 2013, at 2:48 PM, eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi William, If the SG was 1.26, of course the battery voltage would increase quickly to 30V (which is high for warm weather, BTW). It has been my experience that sulfation causes the voltage NOT to climb. Especially when you have a very large bank, and a relatively small amount of solar. Sometimes it is necessary to reduce the bank size into smaller sets to equalize them and recover their performance. This method of reducing bank size is also effective to compare performance and weed out a potentially bad battery. Systems that have a lot of capacity, with a relatively small amount of charge current usually creates problems, because the load demand exceeds solar production. This results in batteries that operate with partial SOC, which is when sulfation is most prevalent. With (8) L16s, you have approx 800Ahrs of capacity (24V bank). It would take significantly more than 8A of charge current to properly care for a bank that size. Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Drake, When you said, The batteries usually reach absorb voltage shortly after the sun hits the array, I wondered if you had more of a problem with that system. Glad to hear it's not that way. Absorb time is an issue I have with the design of most charge controllers: They do not measure current to the battery and use that as the source info to determine if a battery is completely full and when to transition into float mode. Blue Sky Energy does this which, in my book, makes it a great charge controller. If you know how much current any battery draws (they are all different and change with age) when it is completely full, then the charge controller can be programmed to stay in absorb until that parameter is met. It could be 1/2 hour one day and 4 hours the next. Many things affect how batteries charge and this is the only true method I know of to accurately determine when it is full each day. For your situation, I would go with Trojans recommendation of 2 hours absorb at 29.6. If you see that this is not fully charging each day, you can try increasing the time or choosing a higher voltage. If you have the sun hours available, I would choose longer charge time. There are many areas in the States that simply do not have enough sun hours to completely charge the battery from PV solar alone. In this case, using higher absorb voltage may be a solution. Larry On Jul 22, 2013, at 10:04 AM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: Hi Larry, I will bump up the absorb voltage to 29.6 V. How long do you think the bank should stay in absorb at that rate? The bank now seems healthy, with the bad battery replaced. It does accept charge, without going high prematurely. The max charge rate from the array is around C/10. The system can also be fast charged from a Honda 6500 inverter generator through the Outback 3524 VFX. We have a Trimetric meter on the system. The discrepancy between the percent charge and the voltage is what demonstrated that we had a problem. Thanks, Drake At 09:30 PM 7/19/2013, you wrote: Hi Drake, It always concerns me when I hear that a battery bank reaches absorb setting very quickly. It typically means one of two things: very few AH were removed from the bank; the battery bank has sulfated cells due to chronic undercharging. Far too often I find the latter to be true. Healthy batteries will accept current and hold the charge voltage down with a fairly linear, slow climb to absorption voltage. Sulfated batteries do not accept current well which allows voltage to climb rapidly as the battery presents little load on the charging system. I'm not sure how this plays into your original post about a bad cell but it seemed worth mentioning. My opinion is to aggressively charge, by using higher voltage, large flooded batteries. This is especially true when the PV system is moderate or undersized. 29.6 volts is what Trojan recommends. You can go as high as 32 volts on the L-16's but make sure the temperature compensation is installed properly and working. You will use more water. One last comment, I highly recommend that ALL off grid systems have a battery capacity monitor installed. It's kind of like flying an airplane without a fuel gauge…it might not end in disaster. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 18, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: Tom, The batteries usually reach absorb voltage shortly after the sun hits the array. The reason the bank wasn't working correctly is that one cell was dead in one of the batteries. I could increase the absorb time to 4.6 hours and the voltage to 29.6, especially since the bank has a new battery. That is longer and higher than I'd previously heard recommended. What would be the effect on water consumption? How did you calculate the absorb time? Thanks, Drake ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Hi Drake, It always concerns me when I hear that a battery bank reaches absorb setting very quickly. It typically means one of two things: very few AH were removed from the bank; the battery bank has sulfated cells due to chronic undercharging. Far too often I find the latter to be true. Healthy batteries will accept current and hold the charge voltage down with a fairly linear, slow climb to absorption voltage. Sulfated batteries do not accept current well which allows voltage to climb rapidly as the battery presents little load on the charging system. I'm not sure how this plays into your original post about a bad cell but it seemed worth mentioning. My opinion is to aggressively charge, by using higher voltage, large flooded batteries. This is especially true when the PV system is moderate or undersized. 29.6 volts is what Trojan recommends. You can go as high as 32 volts on the L-16's but make sure the temperature compensation is installed properly and working. You will use more water. One last comment, I highly recommend that ALL off grid systems have a battery capacity monitor installed. It's kind of like flying an airplane without a fuel gauge…it might not end in disaster. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 18, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: Tom, The batteries usually reach absorb voltage shortly after the sun hits the array. The reason the bank wasn't working correctly is that one cell was dead in one of the batteries. I could increase the absorb time to 4.6 hours and the voltage to 29.6, especially since the bank has a new battery. That is longer and higher than I'd previously heard recommended. What would be the effect on water consumption? How did you calculate the absorb time? Thanks, Drake ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Kyocera KC120
Check the dates on the KC-120 module label. If any were manufactured between January 1999 and December 2002, they either have failed or are likely to do so. We have been replacing these modules for over 8 years now. There was a defective solder joint during manufacture. Kyocera will still replace them under warranty even though they have no legal requirement to do so. I recommend replacing ALL 120's even if some still work. They will ship you remanufactured 120's and pay for return shipping. Contact Kyocera about the procedure. Larry Crutcher On Jul 1, 2013, at 10:37 AM, All Solar Inc. allso...@scswifi.net wrote: Hello, Does anyone know Kyocera's stand on the old KC120 modules. I recently visited a site with one shattered and others that may have issues. Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar, Penrose CO ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Damage
You do not provide the length of time the plates were exposed so any response is a guess. The result of plate exposure to oxygen is hardening of the amorphous lead sulfate into sulphate crystals and grid corrosion. You should just cover the plates with water then fully charge the bank. After that, perform an equalization charge, testing to see if you are increasing the SG of any cells. After this process, fill the battery to the proper level. The only true test for damage to this bank is also an impractical one: a timed discharge test to measure actual capacity. Since it appears to work fine, I would just continue use. Larry On Jun 10, 2013, at 7:22 AM, Will White william.wh...@realgoods.com wrote: Wrenches, I have a customer who’s got a 24V off grid system with one string of 12 two volt, 2000AH Power Battery brand flooded lead batteries. The bank is about four years old and has been working great except the customer forgot to water the batteries for an extended period. When I went out to service them the plates were exposed and I had to add about a gallon of water per battery. These batteries have a large amount of water over the plates usually so I’m guessing that about 1-2” of the top of the plates were exposed which is about 10% of the total plate surface. So here’s the question. The bank seems to be working fine, is it likely that permanent damage was done? Is there a good way to test for damage? Is there anything I can to do mitigate any damage done? Thanks, Will __ Will White Regional Field Operations Manager – New England Real Goods Solar 64 Main St. Montpelier, VT 05602 Tel: (802) 223-7804 Cell: (802) 234-3167 www.realgoodssolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V charging with 60 cell modules
Eric, You may not be aware but some (not sure, perhaps all) MPPT controllers will switch to simple PWM mode if there is insufficient differential voltage to operate the MPPT circuit. To answer Mac's question, no, there is no good method to use a 60 cell module to charge a 24 volt bank, especially if he is referring to charging flooded batteries used in deep cycle service. Temperature coefficient losses play a role here since you are depending on power output up to Voc. If a battery is kept in float service, it may work. Or, the example David Katz outlined. If Mac has options, go for a higher voltage module. Larry Crutcher On Jun 4, 2013, at 1:31 PM, eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi Allan, The C-series behaves in the same way as if you were to connect the module directly to the battery, then watch a DC volt meter and disconnect/reconnect when the bulk voltage is reached to hold the battery at that level. It will hold at the bulk level for 1 hour, then transition to float. If left connected without disconnecting, the voltage would eventually climb to Voc (approx 36VDC). So, while it is not going to be as efficient as the MPPT controller in the bulk/absorption stages, once the PWM controller transitions to float, it will operate right about the sweet spot (Vmp). The question was making a single 24V module work with a 24V battery. PWM is the only way to do it, as the MPPT requires a higher PV voltage due to the use of a buck transformer. I will certainly pass on any recommendations for improvement to our engineering team, and I appreciate the feedback. Eric Bentsen _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 Mail Attachment.jpeg *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 06/04/2013 10:35 AM Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V charging with 60 cell modules Sent by:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Eric, Please explain further, as what you wrote makes no sense to me. Mac didn't indicate whether he wanted to charge a flooded battery (~29.2V) or sealed (~28.4V). The C-series of PWM controllers has a fixed two-hour absorption, which it only counts down once the bulk voltage is reached. If the bulk voltage setpoint is above the MPP of the module, as it is in this case, how can it ever reach float, as you suggest? And further, this is spec-sheet calculation. In all but the coldest winter weather, the Vmp of the module will be lower still as the module temperature rises above 25ºC, and is likely to be even below the float voltage in hot weather. And in the winter, if the battery is also cold, it will need a higher voltage still to get fully charged. So I'm with Bob-O on this one. You can't charge a 24V battery with a 20V module. Please tell us how I'm wrong. Thanks, Allan P.S. - And while I'm on a virtual roll, please tell your engineering folks to build a charge controller with a higher voltage input window. I don't mean 600 volts at $1,500 or whatever it is; just higher than 150V. On a 48V system, we're stuck with series strings of three modules if we use the lowest-cost-per-watt 60-cell modules. That means that systems have to be designed with arrays in ~750-watt increments. Give us another 50-100V or so of headroom, so we can design with strings in multiples of 3, 4, or 5. Outback, are you listening too? The Midnite Classic does this for us... Thanks. Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc. 3209 Richards Lane (note new address) Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com On 6/4/2013 10:43 AM, eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi Mac, A PWM charge controller, such as the C35, will work in this application, because it will act like a switch that connects the panel to the battery. While the bulk voltage will likely be slightly higher than Vmp, once the controller transitions to float, which is approx 27V for most battery types, it should allow the module to operate very close to Vmp. Typically, MPPT controllers require a higher Vmp than the target charge voltage. Eric Bentsen _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001#
Re: [RE-wrenches] would this work?
All MPPT controllers I know of all need battery voltage to operate. Larry Crutcher On Jun 5, 2013, at 9:30 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: ok wrenches... here is a hair brained idea i came up with. i have this customer with the grundfos pump being powered, array direct by 10 astropower 75's in series... so around 170 vdc. what would happen if a hv mppt charge controller were paralleled with the panel output feeding the pump? would the cu200 charge controller mppt algorithms fight each other? thanks, todd Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] not sure what's going on here
Fellow Wrenches, I realize that many of you are offering your time and comments in a genuine effort to help Ron, however, the problem he described is the EXACT behavior of all early 3024i controllers. This happened with overloaded controllers operating in 24 to 12 downconversion, just like in this case. When the 3024 would reach current limiting, the controller will lock itself to half the input voltage. Because high power is still available, the controller would still function and many did not even know they had a problem. By disconnecting PV and battery and reconnecting, the 3024 will reboot and the problem will not occur again until current limit is reached. Note that this only happens when using high voltage PV and down converting to 12Vdc. Blue Sky Energy is our #1 selling controller and we have installed over 500 3024i's and 3024iL's. When I first discovered this issue and reported it, Rick at Blue Sky was able to duplicate it and made appropriate changes. Upgrading firmware always corrected the issue. So, with respect to the many aged but wonderful minds on this list, I highly suggest the controller upgrade first. At the very least, reboot the controller in the morning and observe as it reaches the limit. Larry Crutcher On May 12, 2013, at 5:44 AM, Exeltech exelt...@yahoo.com wrote: Hello Wrench Team, Please forgive as this seasoned design engineer contributes to your discussion: The conditions and symptoms as originally posted are: 1) A PV array consisting of four Solarworld SW165 PV modules. [72-cell, mono PV, Voc=44.1V, Vmpp=35.3V, Isc=5.2A, Impp=4.7A, all values at STC.] All four PV are parallel-connected. (See item #2 for substantiation.) 2) The PV terminate into a Blue Sky Energy 3024i [30A max out, with automatic current limiting]. V input max for this unit is specified to be 57 volts. This maximum voltage would be exceeded by just two of the above-mentioned PV connected in series. Subsequently, my contention the PV are connected in parallel is supported. 3) One of the PV modules has permanently dropped from ~30-35v output to 13v, regardless of test or operating conditions. 4) When the failed panel is removed from the array, the three remaining panels come back to normal voltage, but after approx 15 minutes drop down to around 13v on the Blue Sky display, even though the individual output from each panel when unhooked and tested in full sun show about 35v. 5) After turning the system off and on again a few minutes later the normal voltages return but drop again in about 15 min. The failed panel stays at 13v, does not recover. Speculative long-distance diagnostics are always challenging. First: The PV module that shows 13 volts open-circuit voltage under all test conditions (hot, cold, open-circuit, etc.) has experienced permanent failure (short) of two of the three bypass diodes. Explanation: Bypass diodes typically shunt 1/3 or 1/4 of the cells in a module. The specified PV have 72 cells, so there's one bypass diode across each of 24 cells in this particular PV module. When a diode fails, it shorts the portion of the module across which it's connected, and the PV voltage drops accordingly. Next: Ron Young (original poster), stated the voltage of the remaining modules drops after 15 minutes use when the system is turned off, then back on again. Ron didn't specify the magnitude of this drop, so I can only guess whether this is the normal Voc to Vmpp decrease .. or he means this too is a decrease from nominal Voc to 13V or some similar voltage. Presuming the latter, this would indicate the heating of the PV is causing one or more bypass diodes in one or more of the remaining modules to fail short intermittently. To that, and to isolate the affected module, the PV must be disconnected from each other, and each module tested separately under the conditions under which the failures were noted. As a point of clarification, and since the four PV in this array are parallel connected, there is no appreciable current being forced through any one module by any of the other modules when all are operating normally. In the event of one or more shorted bypass diodes in a module, then all current from the remaining PV in the array will flow through the shorted diodes in the faulty PV. Defects in the cell buss structure or connections could come into play in a parallel array by causing hot-spot heating, along with possible current being forced through the PV due to the excessive voltage drop caused by that resistance. This could also cause the bypass diodes in the affected PV to be forced into the conductive mode. If this happened often enough, could in turn lead to eventual failure of the diodes, as many bypass diodes relied on convective and radiant cooling within the junction box - and this doesn't work very well. I've got thermograph images of junction boxes with bypass diodes conducting, and the measured temperatures
Re: [RE-wrenches] not sure what's going on here
I have a tendency to read between the lines and try and perceive things unstated. Just my nature. I doubt that the module removed from the circuit stays at 13Vdc. Ron said ...the normal voltages return but drop again in about 15 min. Because of the 3024 software issue I think this is affecting all modules. Also, the individual output from each panel when unhooked and tested in full sun show about 35v. Each meaning the 3 or all 4? Ron, please clarify this. Have you been to the site or was this the report from the owner? Anyone that says, 41 years in solar energy … is bound to be an enlightened, albeit aged fellow. Wear it as a badge. Actually the reference was in general as I view most of us battery wrenches as graybeards. Larry On May 12, 2013, at 7:45 AM, Exeltech exelt...@yahoo.com wrote: Hello Larry, A firmware upgrade may address some aspects of the issue, and is certainly a recommendation, but it doesn't account for the one PV that exhibits 13Vdc output when it's completely out of the circuit. That characteristic clearly exemplifies a failure within the PV module itself. It's entirely possible more than one failure mechanism is involved here, such as something within the PV, and other that's related to the firmware. Multiple-issue failures are some of the most frustrating and challenging of all fault analyses. Then add distance to the equation Thanks too for the reference to aged. Dan --- On Sun, 5/12/13, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: From: Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] not sure what's going on here To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Sunday, May 12, 2013, 9:30 AM Fellow Wrenches, I realize that many of you are offering your time and comments in a genuine effort to help Ron, however, the problem he described is the EXACT behavior of all early 3024i controllers. This happened with overloaded controllers operating in 24 to 12 downconversion, just like in this case. When the 3024 would reach current limiting, the controller will lock itself to half the input voltage. Because high power is still available, the controller would still function and many did not even know they had a problem. By disconnecting PV and battery and reconnecting, the 3024 will reboot and the problem will not occur again until current limit is reached. Note that this only happens when using high voltage PV and down converting to 12Vdc. Blue Sky Energy is our #1 selling controller and we have installed over 500 3024i's and 3024iL's. When I first discovered this issue and reported it, Rick at Blue Sky was able to duplicate it and made appropriate changes. Upgrading firmware always corrected the issue. So, with respect to the many aged but wonderful minds on this list, I highly suggest the controller upgrade first. At the very least, reboot the controller in the morning and observe as it reaches the limit. Larry Crutcher ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] not sure what's going on here
Hi Ron, The problem you describe is due to the firmware in very early versions of the 3024i. What would happen is once you hit the 30 amp current limiter, the controller will switch the input to act like it is connected to a nominal 12 volt module, lowering the input voltage. Contact Blue Sky for the firmware upgrade to correct this. Sincere warning: Although the Blue Sky product handles SOME overload very well, 660 Watts is severe for this 30 amp controller. You have the potential for over 50 amps of current. This can result in the controller becoming a fiery mass of charcoal. Seen it; don't like it. Make sure nothing is in the vicinity of the front panel when this happens. Larry Crutcher On May 10, 2013, at 4:33 PM, Ron @ earthRight Solar solarea...@solareagle.com wrote: Hi Wrenches, Wondering if anyone can shed some light on this. I have a customer who self installed 4 x 165w Solarworld panels a few years ago (2008). It's a 12v nom. battery and the panels are wired in parallel. They've been working fine for five years on a full time household using a 3024i Blue Sky controller albeit driving it well beyond it's max PV power recommendation as currently published by Blue Sky. However, now one of the panels has dropped from approx. 30-35v output to 13v. When the failed panel is removed from the string the three remaining panels come back to normal voltage and amp output but after about 15 minutes drop down to around 13v on the Blue Sky display - even though the individual output from each panel when unhooked and tested in full sun show about 35v. After turning the system off and on again a few minutes later the normal voltages return but drop again in about 15 min. The failed panel stays at 13v, does not recover. I'm trying to do a little pro bono diagnostic for the guy who lives back in the bush. I haven't been to the site but asked him to carefully check all the wiring and he says it's fine. So two questions. First- is there a diode in the failed Solarworld (sealed J box) that could have failed and if so is it repairable? Second, any ideas what could explain the intermittent drop in voltage output of the remaining three? Ron Young ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Fronius warranty payment
What a surprise to receive a phone call from Fronius after 5 months and numerous promises to return calls and emails. I'm guessing they got wind of recent complaints on this list. The tech, after making a few more excuses, did say that the payment will now be processed. So, in fairness, I am reporting this. Hmmm?….motivated by public bitching? Larry On May 7, 2013, at 1:21 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: Bob-O, Fronius is not good for reimbursement anymore. While they used to be, Fronius has refused to pay for warranty service. Since December, 2012, they have refused to reimburse me for an inverter swap that THEY told me to make. The display had an intermit ant problem. When I swapped out the display board, it had the same issue. SO THEY shipped out a replacement and asked me to change it out. When they got it back, they claimed that there was no problem found and so far have refused to pay. I made three trips to the site without reimbursement. BTW, this is the third time this inverter has had a problem. Fronius….no more sold by me. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On May 7, 2013, at 12:14 PM, Bob-O Schultze bo...@electronconnection.com wrote: Jason, I'm one of the many installers who still won't touch a micro yet. It's not so much that there were failures early on, it's how companies like Enphase HANDLED them. My understanding is that you basically got a replacement inverter and got stuffed for your time and travel. That may have changed a bit by now but I'm betting that the reimbursement is still pretty pitiful. It's the same with most central inverter failures during warranty with the exception of Fronius. There are failures to be sure, BUT Fronius' compensation for my time and travel is better than any other manufacturer I've heard about. You won't make much money occasionally replacing their failures, but you won't get hosed either. And that, fellow Wrenches, is why I use Fronius almost exclusively. Any equipment manu who wants my biz needs to make me whole if/when their product bites it during the warranty period. It's bad enough when a product that I recommend to my clients goes belly up. Even though it is the product's fault, that reflects directly back on ME not the manu. If they won't at least compensate me fairly to fix their screw ups, they can just bugger off. Bob-O ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Dual Channel Inverters; Hosed By Fronius
Bob-O, Fronius is not good for reimbursement anymore. While they used to be, Fronius has refused to pay for warranty service. Since December, 2012, they have refused to reimburse me for an inverter swap that THEY told me to make. The display had an intermit ant problem. When I swapped out the display board, it had the same issue. SO THEY shipped out a replacement and asked me to change it out. When they got it back, they claimed that there was no problem found and so far have refused to pay. I made three trips to the site without reimbursement. BTW, this is the third time this inverter has had a problem. Fronius….no more sold by me. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On May 7, 2013, at 12:14 PM, Bob-O Schultze bo...@electronconnection.com wrote: Jason, I'm one of the many installers who still won't touch a micro yet. It's not so much that there were failures early on, it's how companies like Enphase HANDLED them. My understanding is that you basically got a replacement inverter and got stuffed for your time and travel. That may have changed a bit by now but I'm betting that the reimbursement is still pretty pitiful. It's the same with most central inverter failures during warranty with the exception of Fronius. There are failures to be sure, BUT Fronius' compensation for my time and travel is better than any other manufacturer I've heard about. You won't make much money occasionally replacing their failures, but you won't get hosed either. And that, fellow Wrenches, is why I use Fronius almost exclusively. Any equipment manu who wants my biz needs to make me whole if/when their product bites it during the warranty period. It's bad enough when a product that I recommend to my clients goes belly up. Even though it is the product's fault, that reflects directly back on ME not the manu. If they won't at least compensate me fairly to fix their screw ups, they can just bugger off. Bob-O _ List ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] unbalanced string voltages
David, Since a PV module is a constant current device, I don't believe this will take place. For a given amount of light (plus all factors affecting power), the current potential will be there. What force can act upon the current to reduce it? Consequently, the lowest Vmp the inverter can track will dictate the voltage for all strings. This means less power from the highest Vmp modules. Do you agree? Larry Crutcher On Apr 28, 2013, at 9:33 AM, David Katz dk...@aeesolar.com wrote: Kirk The 43volt 5.5 amp panel will operate at 3.6 amps, so it's voltage will move up toward open circuit voltage, raising the mppt voltage of that string. I would bet that the voltage of that entire string will rise to match the higher voltage string by moving toward open circuit voltage. It should work fine. David Katz Sent from my iPhone On Apr 28, 2013, at 9:01 AM, Kirk Herander k...@vtsolar.com wrote: Hello everyone, I am at present adding to a -20- panel array of old Sanyo HIT “lipped” 200 watt panels. They are configured in -4- series strings of -5- panels, with a string MPP voltage of 279 vdc (55.8 v, 3.6 a each). The customer wants to add another nominal 2 kw using the (now) Panasonic 235 watt HIT’s which have an MPP of 43.0 vdc, 5.5 a. I am locked in to an existing SMA 6000US inverter. Obviously I cannot get all the strings to the same voltage. But I can get relatively close by rewiring: String 1: -7- 200 watt @ 55.8 ea. = 390.6 v MPP String 2: same as string 1 String 3: -6- 200 watt @ 55.8 plus -1- 235 watt @ 43.0 = 377.8 v MPP String 4: -9- 235 watt @ 43.0 = 387 v MPP Under this scenario there is a delta of about 12 vdc between high and low MPP. I assume the entire array will operate at the 377.8 V MPP. I know that the 235 watt panel will be current limited also in string 3. Am I missing anything obvious in doing it like this? How will the inverter arrive at an operational MPP voltage? PS. In a pinch I could install a leftover 200 watt HIT I have in the shop. That way I could have -3- strings of -7- 200’s @ 390.6 v MPP, and one string of 235’s @ 387v MPP. But I would prefer not to use this panel since the frame is damaged. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Certified Inaugural Certificant NYSERDA-eligible Installer VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] unbalanced string voltages
So the string with the highest current AND voltage dictates where the inverter MPP locks. Other strings are pulled up past their MPP which means lower current from them. Makes sense. I was only considering constant current under a load equal to the potential. In that case a module is constant current. The chart was helpful to rethink what happens with mis-matched strings. Thanks! Larry Crutcher PS: I believe you! On Apr 29, 2013, at 10:40 AM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: Modules aren't exactly constant current devices. I-V_curve.gif They are for much of their voltage range, up to a voltage a bit below the MPP, and then the current starts tapering down to 0 at Voc. The entire string can only pass as much current as the lowest current module. That means the higher current module will be forced to operate where it can, which is at a higher voltage than its MPP point, as David said. If you don't believe us, hook up a couple of mismatched modules and measure voltage across each module, and the current. Current is always equal in a series connection, then the modules make up for it by moving up or down along their IV curve. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/29/2013 9:44 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: David, Since a PV module is a constant current device, I don't believe this will take place. For a given amount of light (plus all factors affecting power), the current potential will be there. What force can act upon the current to reduce it? Consequently, the lowest Vmp the inverter can track will dictate the voltage for all strings. This means less power from the highest Vmp modules. Do you agree? Larry Crutcher On Apr 28, 2013, at 9:33 AM, David Katz dk...@aeesolar.com wrote: Kirk The 43volt 5.5 amp panel will operate at 3.6 amps, so it's voltage will move up toward open circuit voltage, raising the mppt voltage of that string. I would bet that the voltage of that entire string will rise to match the higher voltage string by moving toward open circuit voltage. It should work fine. David Katz Sent from my iPhone On Apr 28, 2013, at 9:01 AM, Kirk Herander k...@vtsolar.com wrote: Hello everyone, I am at present adding to a -20- panel array of old Sanyo HIT “lipped” 200 watt panels. They are configured in -4- series strings of -5- panels, with a string MPP voltage of 279 vdc (55.8 v, 3.6 a each). The customer wants to add another nominal 2 kw using the (now) Panasonic 235 watt HIT’s which have an MPP of 43.0 vdc, 5.5 a. I am locked in to an existing SMA 6000US inverter. Obviously I cannot get all the strings to the same voltage. But I can get relatively close by rewiring: String 1: -7- 200 watt @ 55.8 ea. = 390.6 v MPP String 2: same as string 1 String 3: -6- 200 watt @ 55.8 plus -1- 235 watt @ 43.0 = 377.8 v MPP String 4: -9- 235 watt @ 43.0 = 387 v MPP Under this scenario there is a delta of about 12 vdc between high and low MPP. I assume the entire array will operate at the 377.8 V MPP. I know that the 235 watt panel will be current limited also in string 3. Am I missing anything obvious in doing it like this? How will the inverter arrive at an operational MPP voltage? PS. In a pinch I could install a leftover 200 watt HIT I have in the shop. That way I could have -3- strings of -7- 200’s @ 390.6 v MPP, and one string of 235’s @ 387v MPP. But I would prefer not to use this panel since the frame is damaged. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Certified Inaugural Certificant NYSERDA-eligible Installer VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form
Thanks Dan. I should have mentioned that this fix is for the washer only and should be installed in a switchable circuit inside the washer or on the washer only circuit. Larry On Apr 17, 2013, at 12:51 PM, Exeltech exelt...@yahoo.com wrote: Wrenches, While the addition of a capacitor may resolve issues associated with various inverter/appliance/motor combinations, please make sure the capacitor(s) get switched OUT of the circuit (disconnected) when the load itself is disconnected. Failure to do so could under some circumstances cause the inverter control-loop circuitry to go unstable, leading to unpredictable inverter operation, and possible damage/failure in the power system. Disconnecting the capacitor with the load alleviate this possibility. Regards to all... Dan Lepinski --- On Wed, 4/17/13, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: From: Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Wednesday, April 17, 2013, 2:09 PM We experience issues like this from time to time. PF seems to be the culprit. Have you measured it or looked at the waveform yet? How an inverter deals with PF seems to vary broadly. For example, the Splendide XC2100 washer/dryer will not work on a Magnum Energy and a few other sine wave inverters. However, it will run on a low cost GoPower or Samlex sine wave inverter. Below is a scope trace of voltage/current of the Magnum inverter Splendide washer. Upper trace is voltage By adding a 50uF run capacitor inline, it somewhat tames the current phase and the sine wave so the Magnum can operate the washer. (Special thanks to Al for the discovery and photos) Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 16, 2013, at 9:46 AM, All Solar allso...@scswifi.net wrote: Have a client with a new coffee maker that will not run from their new dual outback setup. Has anyone heard of this lately. We have had no problems with appliances and sine wave inverters. What to look for? Sent from Jeremy's IPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___i ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Micro-inverters for 3-phase 220/127 in Mexico
Wrenches, A customer in Mexico wants to start with about 10kW PV. They have a 225 kva transformer supplying 220/127 volt 3-phase to the property. They are adding buildings/roof space in several stages over the next 4 years and want to grow the installation to 120kW of PV solar power. Manufacturer data sheets are not real clear. Who makes micro-inverters suitable for this? I know Enphase does not. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] BZ Products Charge Controllers
Hi Mark, I am a real stickler about terms and I hope to always further understanding about batteries so consider this: No charge controller tapers charge current. The reduction in current is due to the slowing of the electrochemical process as the battery is saturated. At constant voltage, you can provide any amount of amperage to the battery but it will only absorb what it can. This is a common misconception that I hear regularly. Once the battery reaches equilibrium, that is, current into the battery equals the self discharge rate, then it is in float. The process to reach float stage is called absorption stage. So I suppose we could call the two stages Bulk and Absorb/Float. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 11, 2013, at 9:43 AM, m...@hurshtown.com wrote: I see what you mean by no float/3rd stage. Indeed the MPPT500 just tapers off the amps once it reaches the float voltage. The MPPT250 however does have an undocumented(?) mode where once it thinks the battery is thoroughly charged, it only puts a brief burst of charge into the battery when the voltage sags to something like 13.8V. The first time I encountered this I thought I had a bad controller. This really does represent a form of float charge. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Combining conductors
Wrenches, Here's a tough one for me to understand. I am installing 2 volt AGM batteries. There are two terminals for each battery polarity. I have some height limits so I need to use the minimum wire size. Here's my question: If I combine two identical conductors, what is the equivalent single conductor size? I found one rule of thumb that says doubling like conductors creates a AWG decrease of 3. Example: two #2 will be equivalent to 2/0. Is this true? Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Combining conductors
Thanks Dan and Nathan. So simply by using the CMA and doubling it I can lookup an equivalent CMA size. That just sounds too easy. other code issues... Since these conductors are attached to separate terminals on each battery, they aren't paralleled but the net result is like paralleling. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 4, 2013, at 10:20 AM, Nathan Stumpff wrote: Larry, I don’t think the relationship of AWG size to ampacity is a linear curve, so while that “rule of thumb” may be pretty good, you can’t always count on it. I would use the circular area column in NEC Chapter 9, Table 8 for an easy, quick way to compare two of one conductor vs. one of another. Of course there are other code issues regarding parallel conductors… Cheers, -Nathan -- Nathan J. Stumpff NABCEP Certified PV Installer #091209-175 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer #032412-14 Project Manager | Arctic Sun, LLC nat...@arcticsun-llc.com | (907) 457-1297 www.reina-llc.com | www.arcticsun-llc.com image001.png From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 8:51 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combining conductors Wrenches, Here's a tough one for me to understand. I am installing 2 volt AGM batteries. There are two terminals for each battery polarity. I have some height limits so I need to use the minimum wire size. Here's my question: If I combine two identical conductors, what is the equivalent single conductor size? I found one rule of thumb that says doubling like conductors creates a AWG decrease of 3. Example: two #2 will be equivalent to 2/0. Is this true? Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and customer service
Lou, In addition to what Allan said, if you perform the discharge test, measure the terminal voltage across each battery. If you find one battery that drops in voltage more than the others, continue to check/record that voltage over time. This method will expose a weak or bad cell in a series string before the 20 hour test is complete. Interstate, or any battery manufacturer I know of, will not warrant to replace an entire bank if a cell/battery is defective. Let's talk Interstate batteries. A few year ago they decided to stop selling the high quality, made in the USA, US2200 battery. The import battery that replaced it has a notorious track record for low capacity, low voltage, difficulty charging and short life. I am speaking from experience having analyzed (discharge tests) and diagnosed several dozen small battery systems. One thing I found out, and this comes from an Interstate Engineer and Specialist, is that the new GC2-HD must be charged daily for 2-4 hours at 2.55 volts per cell. That's 15.3 volts for a 12 volt system. opinionI do not know if their L16 comes from the same manufacturer but my opinion is buying Interstate batteries are not worth the risk for the small cost savings. Of course, I say this about any other manufacturer of poor quality batteries./opinion Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 15, 2013, at 2:57 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Lou, There is nothing in your message that definitively tells me that you have either a bad cell or a bad battery. Minor corrosion on one terminal is normal behavior, especially if the installer didn't coat the terminals at installation. One cell was not using as much water as all the rest is a matter of perception. You write yourself that everything looked fine. It seems to me that you're jumping to conclusions based on the comment of another Wrench without doing sufficient testing first. Get the client to put a measured load on the system without charge. This isn't hard to do with an amp-hour meter in the system - you want a steady load of about 55 A (a C/20 load). If you have a bad cell, it'll show up soon enough. For now, I'm on Interstate's side. Hope this helps, Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc. 3209 Richards Lane (note new address) Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Temperature sensor compatibility for inverters, charge controllers
Battery Wrenches, There are a myriad of battery temperature sensors for inverter/chargers and charge controllers. Does anyone know of compatibility between sensors? For example, I need some of the old Heart (then Xantrex, then Schneider) 20-0022-00 temperature sensors but they are now special order, weeks of waiting with drop ship fees. 1. Will anything else work? 2. Does anyone have a part #/specification for the sensor device? Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
