[RE-wrenches] Metering

[Larry Brown via RE-wrenches]

Does anyone have a recommendation for a high quality meter that can be 
installed near the Main 200 Amp Electric Service Panel at the Point Of 
Interconnection in the Main Service Panel for a Grid Tied System

The client wants to be able to track the electricity the household is actually 
using
And how much the solar electric system is producing

In the net metering arrangement with Central Hudson in NY, all the client gets 
to see on their bill is the net result of the solar credits subtracted from the 
actual usage. In this case, the solar generated credits is consistently zero 
because the usage exceeds the production

Thanks

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain

 

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[RE-wrenches] Off Grid Battery Charging

[Larry Brown via RE-wrenches]

Wrenches

I have a client that we did an off grid system for about 4 years ago
The system is performing well
The client would like to keep charged her batteries in the winter with her 
stationary bicycle operating a small generator 
Right now she uses a grid connection that was available and she turns on a 
breaker if needed to charge the batteries in the winter through the inverter
When the batteries are fully charged she turns the breaker back off
No need for any back up other times of year
That is the only use of the grid

Her request was to be off grid 
This set up eliminated the need for her to have a generator for winter low 
light conditions
So far all is working as designed
But there is talk of adding a gas generator so that if the grid is down, there 
is a back up available
 
The system has 16- AGM Concorde SunXtener Batteries configured in 2 strings of 
8 batteries per string
They are PVX 3050T 6 volt batteries operating at 48VDC
They are charged from the PV Array by 2- Schneider Conext MPPT 80 600 Charge 
Controllers
The system has a Schneider Conext XW+ 5548 Single Inverter

Any thoughts or ideas of what equipment can be matched with a stationary 
bicycle that might give a trickle charge to the battery bank
Anyone ever played with setting this up?
She wants to try this out and see what is possible
Get some winter exercise and perhaps keep the batteries as close to full 
without using the grid or a back up gas generator

All suggestions welcome

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain





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Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Low Temp Charging Damage

[Larry]

My personal opinion is that you should not buy any lithium battery that does 
not provide adequate protection for all modes of operation. 

Freezing does not damage the battery; charging a frozen battery may damage it 
quickly. Trickle charging the battery is not the solution.

There are two solutions: provide a heat source to keep the batteries above 
freezing or incorporate a temperature controller to disable the charger if the 
battery is unsafe to charge.

Larry Crutcher


> On May 21, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Mark Frye  wrote:
> 
> Folks,
> 
> If I have a charger that does not have low battery charge cut-off, I can get 
> in trouble if I have a frozen pack and apply a charging voltage.
> 
> But, if I start with a pack that is above freezing and keep a trickle charge 
> on it, can I keep that pack safe from freezing and damage?
> 
> Or at some point, as ambient temperature drops, the pack will freeze and be 
> damaged anyway?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mark Frye
> 
> 
> ___

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[RE-wrenches] Burkina Faso Off Grid

[Larry Brown]

Wrenches

I had a call from someone looking for an installer to do some off grid 
installations in Burkina Faso, Africa
They have a school project they are working on

If anyone does work in that part of the world would you get in touch and I will 
hook you up with Pascal

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
845-657-8096
sunmount...@netstep.net


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling

[Larry Brown]

Kirpal

Thanks for the recommendations
If you have a diagram that would be most helpful and generous
What Lithium Battery are you using with this configuration?

Much Appreciated
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
845-657-8096
sunmount...@netstep.net


On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:15 AM, Kirpal  wrote:

Larry.Outback Radian would work fine but you would need 2 of the 8kW 
inverters for your ~11kW GT inverter.  Outback  recommends a maximum 75% 
loading ratio when AC coupling.  We have used a simple solid state relay 
controlled by the Aux Out of the Radian to turn off one leg of the SolarEdge or 
any other GT inverter essentially shutting off the GT inverter when a desired 
battery voltage is reached.  
As an aside, in earlier days when lead acid batteries where the main battery 
technology I didn't like this set up because it didn't allow multistage 
charging of the batteries leading to batteries only reaching approximately 80% 
SOC (bad for batteries) because there was no ability to taper charge (aside 
from frequency shift compatible inverters). But nowadays with Lithium 
batteries, which don't require multistage charging becoming more common this 
method of AC coupling is pretty attractive because the batteries don't care if 
they only reach a partial state of chargeEven though you can charge them 
more than 80% before kicking off the GT inverter.  We have used this method 
successfully in addition to having DC coupling present in the same system as 
well.
Let me know if you need a diagram.


Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
Oregon LRT#25
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Oregon Solarworks LLC
www.oregonsolarworks.com <http://www.oregonsolarworks.com/>
541-299-0402

On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 7:07 AM, Larry Brown mailto:sunmount...@netstep.net>> wrote:
Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple with 
a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed?
I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off grid 
but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter
Any recommendations?

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
845-657-8096
sunmount...@netstep.net <mailto:sunmount...@netstep.net>


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[RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling

[Larry Brown]

Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple with 
a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed?
I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off grid 
but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter
Any recommendations?

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
845-657-8096
sunmount...@netstep.net


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Auger for ground mount

[Larry Brown]

We have been using Techno Metal Posts Helical Piers with much success for many 
years
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
845-657-8096
sunmount...@netstep.net


Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 9, 2018, at 11:48 AM, Chris Schaefer <ch...@solarandwindfx.com> wrote:
> 
> While I've been using the Zilla platform with an auger attachment for a mini 
> excavator with good luck. With that said I'm looking at Nuance Energy and 
> their Osprey mount which requires a hammer drill. Anyone tried this yet?
> 
> Christopher
> 
>> On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Jerry Shafer <jerrysgarag...@gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>> Chris
>> Azk around for a fence contractor, they generally have what you need
>> Jerry
>> 
>>> On Feb 9, 2018 5:05 AM, "Chris Mason" <cometenergysyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I'm taking on construction of a ground mount system of about 30KW. My 
>>> previous experience has entailed using a utility truck mounted auger for 
>>> the holes but that's expensive. The soil type here is fairly soft, not 
>>> rock.  There's no contractor available with a skid steer mounted auger. I 
>>> need at least four inch holes, three foot deep. Siz inch would be better.
>>> What are the options? Any novel ideas?
>>> We have a service truck with a 2 ton hydraulic crane, anything I can mount 
>>> to that? I don't mind fabricating brackets and mounts, welding parts to it.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Chris Mason
>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
>>> Solar Design Engineer
>>> Generac Generators Industrial technician
>>> 
>>> www.cometsolar.com
>>> 264.235.5670
>>> 869.662.5670
>>> Skype: netconcepts
>>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Chris Schaefer’s
> 
> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 
> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
> 
> 
> 
> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, 
> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing 
> to work and give to those who would not."
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[RE-wrenches] Sunny Island 5048

[Larry Brown]

Wrenches

Does anyone have an empty original cardboard box for a Sunny Island 5048 
Inverter?

Please contact me off list

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
sunmount...@netstep.net
845-657-8096
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[RE-wrenches] Transverter Total Smart Grid Solution

[Larry Brown]

Have any wrenches had any experience with Heart Transverters

http://www.transverter.com/

I have a client who wants to use one to transition from a grid tied system to 
an off the the grid system

Thanks

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
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[RE-wrenches] These Wind Turbines Generate Energy Without any Blades | Digital Trends

[Larry Brown]

Wrenches,

Does anyone have any comments or knowledge on this new product about to enter 
the Renewable Energy world?

Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain


http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/vortex-bladeless-wind-turbine-indiegogo/
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar

[Larry Brown]

Michael,

How do i access the marketing list?

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain

On May 2, 2015, at 8:07 PM, Michael Welch wrote:

 Hey gang. This has been interesting, but let's get the list back to 
 wrenching. 
 
 Let's move any further discussion to the RE-Marketing list, or the 
 RE-Bitching list.
 
 Thanks.
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Copper bar current capacity?

[Larry]

I did see these AC 60Hz tables like your link. Is it the same for DC 
current? Seems like I read that there was a difference.


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 4/29/15 11:27 AM, August Goers wrote:

Larry,

There are many resources for this online. A quick search for copper bar
current rating chart yields results like this:

http://www.watteredge.com/pdf/Ampacity_Tables.pdf

Best,

August

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Larry
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 11:04 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Copper bar current capacity?

Hi Wrenches,

In building lithium battery systems, I have many components that need to
be connected in series from the battery. Sometimes the space is very
limited making it difficult to bend 2/0 cables. I would like to use copper
flat bar and make parts to replace the cables. Does anyone know how much
current I can run through copper bar based on its size? For example, 1 or
3/4  wide by .0625 up to .125 thick. The pieces will only be a few
inches long and bolted to solenoids, shunt and terminal posts.

--
Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

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[RE-wrenches] Copper bar current capacity?

[Larry]

Hi Wrenches,

In building lithium battery systems, I have many components that need to 
be connected in series from the battery. Sometimes the space is very 
limited making it difficult to bend 2/0 cables. I would like to use 
copper flat bar and make parts to replace the cables. Does anyone know 
how much current I can run through copper bar based on its size? For 
example, 1 or 3/4  wide by .0625 up to .125 thick. The pieces will 
only be a few inches long and bolted to solenoids, shunt and terminal posts.


--
Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Manufacturers warranty......

[Larry]

Hi Bill,

Because of the nature of my business, we have designed and installed 
thousands of small RE systems. As a result I install a much higher 
volume of components and consequently deal with a greater number of 
failed units. Over the last 14 years, Magnum Energy and Kyocera are the 
only companies that have offered hassle free compensation for labor. 
Magnum has established time for each repair whereas Kyocera pays for all 
of our RR time.


Fronius? Took me a year and many arguments, pleading, emails and phone 
calls to get them to cough up payment for an inverter that _they 
insisted_ I return to them. (BTW, this was the 3rd inverter swap) Then, 
instead of mailing me a check, they issued a credit to Sunwize that only 
applied to future Fronius purchases, something which I will never do 
again. A boat load of crap later I got the credit applied to my account.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 4/21/15 10:03 PM, frenergy wrote:
My recent experience with SMA was $150 for the warranty change out of 
one of their string inverters.  It was a significant hassle and took 
months to receive a check.  You have to know that they offer the $150, 
If you don't ask, they won't offer it.  Whereas Fronius almost insists 
they pay you $250 for a warranty change out, easy and prompt.  SMA 
used to ship from Rocklin, CA, now you have to wait for it to come 
from Colorado.

Anybody know Magnum's policy?
Bill
Feather River Solar Electric



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates

[Larry]

About the carb heat idea...LP is a liquid at -44°F. The liquid does not 
combust, it must be vaporized. As the ambient temperature drops closer 
to the LP liquid temperature, there would be a reduction in how fast 
liquid is vaporizing and therefor a reduction in volume. What you need 
in cold weather is enough volume to maintain at least 11 wc while 
cranking or running the engine. You can test the vapor pressure with a 
manometer while cranking to verify if this is the problem.


If this is the reason the engine does not run, my thoughts are that 
heating the LP regulator would be much more economical from an energy 
standpoint, than heating the whole engine block. Perhaps an insulated 
enclosure with silicone heaters appropriately attached would work. They 
are available in many DC or AC and at various voltages.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 4/2/15 10:34 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

Gary,
Mac's approach is intelligent and will work well, as an automated 
system with the right hardware. We took a quite different approach on 
a somewhat similar scenario in 2009.


This was a Kohler 8.5REZ, with the electric carb heater and AC charter 
for the starting battery. No block heater, but that could have been 
handled the same way. The inverter was a Magnum MS4024PAE, but that 
doesn't matter here. When we ran the bundle of gennie output 
conductors, we added a separate load circuit conductor, on its own 
breaker in the system E-Panel. Here's an excerpt from the original 
proposal description about our approach:


The unit uses an electronic generator controller with modest
(estimated at 200-700 mA, depending on state of operation) draw on
the starting battery. This controller drops to minimal “sleep”
draw automatically after 48 hours of non-operation. This generator
does not have a starting battery charging coil, but rather uses a
separate AC battery trickle charger to maintain the battery. I
will install a 20W PV module and small charge controller on the
generator to keep the starting battery charged. I will also
install the AC charger to operate whenever the generator is
running. While this combined setup has worked successfully for
other installers with whom I have spoken, if this proves
insufficient I can later add a switch and relay to allow the
charger to also operate off of inverter AC if ever needed.

The unit also requires a built-in carburetor heater to operate
during cold weather. This heater is normally controlled by a
thermostat to conservatively come on at or below 40°F, which would
mean that it would operate nearly continuously during Taos’ winter
months, draining the PV system. My solution is to put the
carburetor heater on a manual mechanical one-hour time switch
located at the generator; you will activate the heater through
this switch 15-30 minutes before starting the generator.

This may not work for you. This is a modern doublewide serving as a 
seasonal family meeting place, rather than a full time residence. With 
our usual sunny winters, we figure that if nobody is there, loads are 
minimal, and we don't want automatic (unattended) generator operation. 
I think we used a DG WP box inside the generator enclosure, with a 
mechanical timer (maybe one-hour) controlling a GFCI receptacle, with 
carb heater and battery charger plugged in.


I hope that gives you some ideas you can use.

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

**




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates

[Larry]

Chris,

After I hit the send button, I thought about how a small generator or 
gas grill will use tank pressure through a vapor regulator. If this 
generator is plumbed that way, there lies a problem that your solution 
of heating the tank will work with. Personally I would not plumb a 
generator with vapor lines from the tank, especially is it is a long 
distance away. Since Gary said this was a large system, I am assuming it 
is liquid delivery to the generator.


Gary, is the LP to the generator vapor or liquid from the tank?

Larry

On 4/3/15 10:56 AM, Chris Mason wrote:
Heating the regulator won't help if the propane is not vapourizing. 
You would need to heat the tank.
However, you do not need to heat it very much, just enough to let it 
vapourize. Think about putting it somewhere with a little heat, or 
burying it.


On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Larry la...@starlightsolar.com 
mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com wrote:


About the carb heat idea...LP is a liquid at -44°F. The liquid
does not combust, it must be vaporized. As the ambient temperature
drops closer to the LP liquid temperature, there would be a
reduction in how fast liquid is vaporizing and therefor a
reduction in volume. What you need in cold weather is enough
volume to maintain at least 11 wc while cranking or running the
engine. You can test the vapor pressure with a manometer while
cranking to verify if this is the problem.

If this is the reason the engine does not run, my thoughts are
that heating the LP regulator would be much more economical from
an energy standpoint, than heating the whole engine block. Perhaps
an insulated enclosure with silicone heaters appropriately
attached would work. They are available in many DC or AC and at
various voltages.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates

[Larry]

Hi Chris,

LP will boil (vaporize) at -44° so until your ambient temperature is 
below that it is vaporizing. Heating the tank will increase the liquid 
and vapor pressure in the tank but it is still liquid, not vapor, that 
is plumbed to a cold regulator, or vaporizer if they have one, where the 
vaporization takes place for the engine. I can't see that increase tank 
temperature would solve the issue.


In 1981 I bought a truck with dual fuel capability. The J-valve 
regulator had liquid heater lines from the coolant system to heat the LP 
liquid at the point of vaporization. The tank was in the bed and never 
heated. In very cold weather I had to start the engine on gas then 
switch to LP after hot water hit the regulator. All worked well with a 
warm regulator.


Larry

On 4/3/15 10:56 AM, Chris Mason wrote:
Heating the regulator won't help if the propane is not vapourizing. 
You would need to heat the tank.
However, you do not need to heat it very much, just enough to let it 
vapourize. Think about putting it somewhere with a little heat, or 
burying it.


On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Larry la...@starlightsolar.com 
mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com wrote:


About the carb heat idea...LP is a liquid at -44°F. The liquid
does not combust, it must be vaporized. As the ambient temperature
drops closer to the LP liquid temperature, there would be a
reduction in how fast liquid is vaporizing and therefor a
reduction in volume. What you need in cold weather is enough
volume to maintain at least 11 wc while cranking or running the
engine. You can test the vapor pressure with a manometer while
cranking to verify if this is the problem.

If this is the reason the engine does not run, my thoughts are
that heating the LP regulator would be much more economical from
an energy standpoint, than heating the whole engine block. Perhaps
an insulated enclosure with silicone heaters appropriately
attached would work. They are available in many DC or AC and at
various voltages.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




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Re: [RE-wrenches] ITC

[Larry]

On 3/27/15 1:04 PM, Gary Willett wrote:
but if a business owned PV system is involved, and does not 
involve a personal 1040 tax return /_or a residential PV system, the 
30% residential energy credit does not apply_/ - the Form 3468 
investment tax credit is used.


Regards,

Gary Willett
Icarus Solar
Irving TX



Hi Gary,

The PV system does not have to be a residential system to qualify. The 
tax credit applies to any dwelling unit owned by the individual 
including a recreational vehicle. We have had hundreds of customers take 
the credit over the last few years for systems installed on RV's.


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
www.starlightsolar.com
(928) 342-9103


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks

[Larry]

Keep in mind that the Midnite controller has a combined PV and bat. 
negative and the Blue Sky requires isolated PV and bat. negative.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 3/24/15 6:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote:
The thought was to charge the batteries for a new building utilizing 
an SW4024 with new classic controller and new L A batteries, and once 
those batteries are charged send the PV to the house system which is 
the 48v setup with dual outback inverters and dual SB3048 CCs.  Lead 
acid batteries as well. 3 years old

I've never had this come up in 16 years!


Jeremy Rodriguez
All Solar, Inc.
1463 M
Penrose Colorado 81240

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!

On Mar 24, 2015, at 5:31 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com 
mailto:r...@solarray.com wrote:


What's the reasoning behind two different battery banks at different 
voltages? What is the other equipment involved: batteries type, age, 
inverters, etc.?

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 3/24/2015 5:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote:

It would be 2kw of PV

Jeremy
All Solar
Penrose, CO


Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:17:20 -1000
From: jerrysgarag...@gmail.com
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks

How big of a system are you looking at as some of the smaller charge 
controllers are auto sensing

Jerry

On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez 
allsolarjer...@msn.com mailto:allsolarjer...@msn.com wrote:


Wrenches,
I have a client that wants to charge a 24v battery bank and a
48v bank with the same array. Different charge controllers, with
some type of relay is what I was thinking, and using the
controller's aux. 12v output for the relay control.
The primary battery to be charged would be the 24v bank, then
once it is fully charged, divert the pv to the secondary
controller at the 48v bank.

Any comments or recommendations on this would be helpful.

Jeremy Rodriguez
All Solar Inc.
Penrose, CO

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks

[Larry]

The Blue Sky should still work as long as he switches PV positive and 
negative. However, I like the idea of charging just the 24 volt system 
and feeding AC to the Outbacks to charge the 48 volt bank. A little more 
loss but mush easier to implement. You could easily control when AC is 
fed to the 48 volt system based on voltage of the 24 volt battery.


Larry

On 3/25/15 10:24 AM, Ray Walters wrote:

Hi Jeremy;

I usually would combine both buildings all into one system, KISS 
principle, and also less cost. Later when those batteries die, replace 
with a properly sized bank.  I also wouldn't be building a new system 
around an SW4024, those are getting really dated. Great inverter, but 
they don't last forever.  They have excellent resell value on Ebay for 
folks that need replacements in dual and quad systems.
Having said that, Jerry's idea of 2 controllers on one array sounds 
like it would work, but not with Blue Sky because of the grounding as 
Larry mentioned.

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 3/25/2015 10:36 AM, Larry wrote:
Keep in mind that the Midnite controller has a combined PV and bat. 
negative and the Blue Sky requires isolated PV and bat. negative.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
On 3/24/15 6:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote:
The thought was to charge the batteries for a new building utilizing 
an SW4024 with new classic controller and new L A batteries, and 
once those batteries are charged send the PV to the house system 
which is the 48v setup with dual outback inverters and dual SB3048 
CCs.  Lead acid batteries as well. 3 years old

I've never had this come up in 16 years!


Jeremy Rodriguez
All Solar, Inc.
1463 M
Penrose Colorado 81240

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!

On Mar 24, 2015, at 5:31 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com 
mailto:r...@solarray.com wrote:


What's the reasoning behind two different battery banks at 
different voltages? What is the other equipment involved: batteries 
type, age, inverters, etc.?

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 3/24/2015 5:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote:

It would be 2kw of PV

Jeremy
All Solar
Penrose, CO


Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:17:20 -1000
From: jerrysgarag...@gmail.com
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks

How big of a system are you looking at as some of the smaller 
charge controllers are auto sensing

Jerry

On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez 
allsolarjer...@msn.com mailto:allsolarjer...@msn.com wrote:


Wrenches,
I have a client that wants to charge a 24v battery bank and a
48v bank with the same array. Different charge controllers,
with some type of relay is what I was thinking, and using the
controller's aux. 12v output for the relay control.
The primary battery to be charged would be the 24v bank, then
once it is fully charged, divert the pv to the secondary
controller at the 48v bank.

Any comments or recommendations on this would be helpful.

Jeremy Rodriguez
All Solar Inc.
Penrose, CO



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank

[Larry]

Hi Jarmo,

I agree and recognize your urgency in making us aware of the proper use 
and charging of Li-ion batteries as well as the dangers of mistreating 
them. As an early adopter myself, I am very cautious in my approach even 
to the point of refusing to sell to some customers. Lithium battery 
technology is in a state of rapid evolution.


Not wanting to harp on the GBS brand that I sell, but one of your points 
goes to prove the safety of their integrated approach. You said, ...all 
it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell. The 
GBS EMS system has cell level sensors for temperature (and other data) 
and each sensor board requires constant communication with the CPU. If 
the EMS fails to communicate any information with any cell, the CPU 
immediately shuts down both safety solenoids, disconnecting the battery. 
With the non integrated systems, failures that don't report information 
to the management system could lead to disaster.


Please keep offering us the knowledge you are gaining as I am a firm 
believer that Lithium technology is a large part of the inevitable 
replacement the aged lead battery.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
 


On 3/17/15 6:11 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote:

Hi:

I may sound like I'm a detractor against using Lion, but that's not it.

What I want to bring to light is that, being as the technology is new, 
not all the issues are known and there are things to learn for all 
early adopters in the foreseeable future.


From what I can gather the framework for the issues lies in that Lion 
technology is based on intercalation, that is, a reversible insertion 
and removal of Li molecules into compounds with microscopically 
layered structures.  This predicates that there must be no chemical 
reaction in the battery, but rather only the shelving of the highly 
reactive Li ions.  If there are any chemical reactions taking place, 
then in the least the battery performance is compromised and in the 
most there is a thermal event or worse


There are some very robust Lion battery packs, a favorite of mine 
being from a local company from Vancouver, (well Richmond, which is a 
suburb of Vancouver).  It's a small company, but they have designed, 
developed, built and successfully approved their 6 kWh Lion pack for 
use in large car ferries in Scandinavia.  The ferries have stacks of 
these packs in the 100's, in the MWh size.  It can be done.


What I'm advocating is that its best to work with companies that have 
the time, interest and resources to work through the wrinkles, and if 
not, then carefully put in reliable and precise BMS circuitry which 
includes things like fail safe circuits for single point failures of 
critical sensing circuits, the foremost of which is cell temperature. 
 When you're pushing large currents, all it takes is one poor 
connection or broken temp sensor on one cell..


Here's a link to the Lion battery pack manufacturer, Corvus,

http://corvus-energy.com/

I know they do a good job, but they're not cheap, for now...

JARMO

*
Jarmo Venalainen*  | *Schneider Electric **|  Xantrex Brand*  | 
*CANADA*  | *Sales Application Engineer* *
Phone:* +604-422-2528  | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707  | *Mobile:* 
+604-505-0291 *
Email:* _jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com_ 
mailto:jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | 
*Site:*_www.Xantrex.com_ http://www.xantrex.com/ | *Address:* 3700 
Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1

http://www.xantrexrebate.com/
http://www.xantrex.com/ 	https://www.facebook.com/Xantrex 
https://twitter.com/Xantrex 	https://twitter.com/Xantrex







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Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank

[Larry]

Not at all. The EMS boards are well built and are protected under a 
cover with the terminals. I have not had any failures of the EMS boards 
or any failure to communicate with them.


Larry

On 3/18/15 4:52 PM, Bruce Erickson wrote:
If a communication failure with a single cell (not even an actual 
fault) can cause total battery shutdown, does that lead to a lot of 
nuisance tripping?


*Bruce Erickson*
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com mailto:br...@mendocinosolar.com

/Celebrating 20 Years in Solar!/1994-2014







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Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank

[Larry]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the recommendation. I received a quote from Comrent$1800 
to rent a load for 1 week. Ouch! I'll go with the $10 water elements and 
a little fabrication time. I have AH counters and controllers to stop 
the discharge.


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 3/17/15 2:38 PM, Chris Mason wrote:
Load banks are for rent, I am in the generator business and it is a 
common requirement to provide a load bank upon installation.

http://www.comrent.com/Solutions/load-bank-rentals.html


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank

[Larry]

I was thinking of mounting the water heat elements into an aluminum 
plate, laying the plate flat over a 55 gallon drum and filling the water 
level up to the plate. Stratified water may make the top pretty hot but 
I guess it will work.


Larry

On 3/17/15 1:07 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
Those look like your solution.  Also water can take more heat with 
less trouble than air heaters.  I've had air heaters start melting 
things, etc.  You can just install those in the side of a 55 gal 
barrel with a bulkhead fitting, or yes, weld the appropriate plumbing 
fitting to the side of the barrel. Might even be able to install them 
into a section of pipe with  Ts and run water through it to cool the 
elements.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 3/17/2015 1:40 PM, Larry wrote:

Hey Ray,

I remember seeing huge banks of light bulbs as loads back in the 
early 70's.


I need to test the entire bank as one unit as the first cell of 32 to 
reach 2.8 volts determines the capacity for the bank. I just saw Home 
Depot has a 2kW 120 volt water heater for $10. Guess I need to do 
some welding.


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 3/17/15 11:59 AM, Ray Walters wrote:

Hi Larry,

I think you hit on the best load already: water heater elements 
rated for 120 v.  We have also used dump loads for wind turbines 
like the air heating elements from Bergey, but they are only about 1 
kW each.  Another possible source are the resistor banks for old 
golf carts (before they had controllers, they used resistor banks to 
operate at slow speeds)
A very long time ago, an inverter company had a demonstration that 
used a large bank of incandescent light bulbs.  They used to make a 
300 watt bulb for mining, so 33 of those would work. (maybe a few 
more bulbs, since your voltage is bit lower than 120 v)  Cheap 
electric space heaters would work too.  You also might look around 
at an electronics surplus store.
Whatever you do, it sounds like a lot of time and work to set up. 
Any chance of doing a smaller load test for subsets of the total 
bank?  You might be able to use a standard 12 v battery load tester 
then.


Good Luck.

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 3/17/2015 12:41 PM, Larry wrote:
I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion 
battery bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. 
After cell replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a 
10kW load to verify the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is 
105 volts @ 100% SoC and 89.6 volts @ 0%


I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. 
Water heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT 
inverters that will operate at these voltages?


Thanks.



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[RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank

[Larry]

I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion 
battery bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. After 
cell replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a 10kW load to 
verify the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is 105 volts @ 100% 
SoC and 89.6 volts @ 0%


I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. Water 
heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT inverters that 
will operate at these voltages?


Thanks.

--


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank

[Larry]

Hi Jarmo,

One of the reasons I chose to sell and install GBS batteries is the 
chemistry is safer, they have vent caps (like AGM) and they offer an 
integrated solution where the battery, EMS/BMS and CPU are all designed 
specifically for each other instead of adding various parts from 
different manufacturers. The chemistry is LFMP (lithium iron manganese) 
not LFP. There are seven monitored fault events, including temperature, 
current and voltage, that will disconnect the battery from any load or 
any charge source.


Since we are installing in RV's, there are multiple charge sources and 
all must be controlled. The systems I design do this very well. Also, 
our charge and discharge rates are far lower than the industry normally 
expects; rarely reaching .5C.


I have seen private videos of destructive testing of GBS cells. Steel 
rods fired through entire packs; slow crush tests from top and sides, 
impact tests, even cells blown away on a gun range (that was more for 
fun I think as not too likely you will experience that). No fire, no 
thermal events. Bottom line for me is these are likely the safest 
Lithium battery I can offer. Many customers have already had shut down 
events because they were not being responsible. A simple reset and 
they're back in business.


What was the lithium chemistry that you had trouble with?

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher

On 3/17/15 12:49 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote:

Hi:

Please be careful when working with solar system size Lithium packs on 
the cell level.


We have been doing on-going testing with Lion battery packs from 
various suppliers and even with their built in temp sensors and other 
BMS circuits, have already had two thermal events.


Lion is very unforgiving with regards low state of charge, high state 
of charge, temperature (110F is the max temp at which they should be 
charged and 140F is the max they can handle).


Given the low thermal mass of Lion cells, a high rate of discharge or 
charge quickly gets the cell temperature into the 110F+ range.


As soon as you cross the line things start happening and if the BMS 
doesn't put a stop to it by turning the battery pack off, it's a very 
quick slide down the hill from there.


JARMO
_
*
Jarmo Venalainen*  | *Schneider Electric **|  Xantrex Brand*  | 
*CANADA*  | *Sales Application Engineer* *
Phone:* +604-422-2528  | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707  | *Mobile:* 
+604-505-0291 *
Email:* _jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com_ 
mailto:jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | 
*Site:*_www.Xantrex.com_ http://www.xantrex.com/ | *Address:* 3700 
Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1

http://www.xantrexrebate.com/
http://www.xantrex.com/ 	https://www.facebook.com/Xantrex 
https://twitter.com/Xantrex 	https://twitter.com/Xantrex





*** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail



From:   Larry la...@starlightsolar.com
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org,
Date:   03/17/2015 11:41 AM
Subject:[RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
Sent by:RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank

[Larry]

Hey Ray,

I remember seeing huge banks of light bulbs as loads back in the early 
70's.


I need to test the entire bank as one unit as the first cell of 32 to 
reach 2.8 volts determines the capacity for the bank. I just saw Home 
Depot has a 2kW 120 volt water heater for $10. Guess I need to do some 
welding.


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 3/17/15 11:59 AM, Ray Walters wrote:

Hi Larry,

I think you hit on the best load already: water heater elements rated 
for 120 v.  We have also used dump loads for wind turbines like the 
air heating elements from Bergey, but they are only about 1 kW each.  
Another possible source are the resistor banks for old golf carts 
(before they had controllers, they used resistor banks to operate at 
slow speeds)
A very long time ago, an inverter company had a demonstration that 
used a large bank of incandescent light bulbs.  They used to make a 
300 watt bulb for mining, so 33 of those would work.  (maybe a few 
more bulbs, since your voltage is bit lower than 120 v)  Cheap 
electric space heaters would work too.  You also might look around at 
an electronics surplus store.
Whatever you do, it sounds like a lot of time and work to set up. Any 
chance of doing a smaller load test for subsets of the total bank?  
You might be able to use a standard 12 v battery load tester then.


Good Luck.

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 3/17/2015 12:41 PM, Larry wrote:
I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion 
battery bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. After 
cell replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a 10kW load 
to verify the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is 105 volts @ 
100% SoC and 89.6 volts @ 0%


I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. 
Water heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT 
inverters that will operate at these voltages?


Thanks.



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[RE-wrenches] Trace SWRC remote

[Larry]

Does anyone know where I can find a working SWRC remote for Trace PS and 
SW inverters?


--
Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Uni-Solar 68w Laminate panel removal

[Larry]

Hi Lou,

There should be two screws at the top of the module. Remove these and on 
a very hot day you should be able to start at the top edge and peel it 
down. Don't hurry. Once started, a heat gun to the bottom will speed it 
up. If some stick-um gets left on the roof, you'll need a solvent to 
loosen it (can't remember, WD40?).


So, after all that effort you will have a used Uni-Solar 68 Watt PV mod 
that is worth about $50 to someone that knows about the performance of 
those amazing modules.



Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 3/3/15 4:33 PM, Lou Russo wrote:

Wrenches,

Has anyone ever removed these from a metal standing seam roof? If so, 
was the module or roof damaged? If not, then is there a market for 
these used panels?


Thanks for any insight.
Aloha,

Lou Russo




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Re: [RE-wrenches] SunWise or Small 12 or 24 Volts Modules

[Larry]

Hi Tom,

For some reason your link goes nowhere and when I Google sunlandusa 
get nothing related to PV solar.


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher

On 2/24/15 4:00 PM, Tom Lane wrote:


SunLand USA at www.sunlandusa.com has a large range of 5 to 180 watt PV modules 
that are all 12 or 24 volt . The modules are well made and their service is 
great . They only sell 12 and 24 watt mono  and poly modules . I have been 
happy with their 10 , 20 , 25 , 45 , and 75 , 80 , 85 , 120,140, 160 I have 
purchased and their other 12 and 24 volt equipment . GatorTom
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[RE-wrenches] Sunwize or industrial PV modules

[Larry]

Hello Wrenches,

Does anyone know where to by small 20 to 75 Watt modules like Sunwize 
used to sell? They were what I considered industrial grade with a 
junction box. I checked with Soligent but they don't have any.


Thanks, Larry

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions

[Larry]

Dan and Allan,

I was not going to comment on this thread since my info is a few years 
old. But since you brought up recent failures I will tell my experience. 
A few year ago we were having failures with new FM60 and FM80 
controllers. Brand new DOA controllers were replaced with used, warranty 
repaired controllers. One customer had 3 controllers replaced in 30 
days. After too many calls to Outback and not one penny in compensation, 
we totally quit selling all Outback products.


Since then we have sold hundreds of Magnum Energy inverters. The only 
failure we have had was very recently with their new MSH series. For 
charge controllers we switched to Midnight Classic. We install 10-15 
Classic 150's per month. We have had 1 DOA but Midnite responded well 
and sent a new replacement.


Attention manufacturers...Customer service is everything to me.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 2/9/15 12:14 PM, Dan Tittmann wrote:
AS someone who works almost exclusively with off grid battery based 
inverters for years.  I would recommend staying away from the outback 
line of inverters.  We are seeing outback failures in units that are 
only 2 to 3 years old, once you get through to the Tech Support 
generally a 30 to 40 min hold time and forget about the call you back 
feature unless you want a call back in three days.  The board 
replacements that we get are a total crap shoot.  I have had 
replacement boards fail within minutes and many of them within in 
months and there is no warranty on the boards.


I would go with Magun Hybrid as it is a 120 V AC unit and has load 
assist like the old SW's.  We are always sorry to replace the old SW 
units but after 20+ years of service I guess they have put in their 
work.  Magnum has provided us with reliable service since we started 
installing them 6 Years ago.  I hope they keep their product as 
reliable with the new owners.


my two cents
Daniel



Daniel Tittmann
CTO
Greenwired
www.greenwired.com http://www.greenwired.com
dan...@greenwired.com mailto:dan...@greenwired.com
707-923-2001 (office)
707-206-5088 (Cell)


On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Allan Sindelar 
al...@sindelarsolar.com mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com wrote:


Esteemed Wrenches,

What I want to know, please, are answers to two+
questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where?
and 2) what actual experiences, specifically product failures,
have any of you had that directly relate to changes directly
attributable to overseas production? In other words, how much
of this is real and how much is rumor?


-- 


*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 tel:505%20780-2738 cell*

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Re: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question

[Larry]

Wow, Jarmo! That is some incredible workmanship and a great way to 
interconnect multiple inverters and chargers. You can tell they have 
done this a few times. Thanks for sharing those photos.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 1/3/15 9:16 AM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote:

Hi:

This link takes you to a site in Romania so you (likely) wont be able 
to read the text, but  it does have a lot of good pictures.


This installer has been using XW since about 2007 and has a tons of 
experience.  I like what he does with the DC wiring/busbars.  The 
breakers are in the box below the inverters and charge controllers.


http://customer.lpelectric.ro/doc/sibiu2/sibiu2_28kw_fotovoltaic.html

JARMO
_
*
Jarmo Venalainen*  | *Schneider Electric **|  Solar Business*  | 
*CANADA*  | *Training  Development Specialist - Senior* *

Phone:* +604-422-2528  | *Fax:* +604-420-1591  | *Mobile:* +604-505-0291 *
Email:* _jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com_ 
mailto:jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | 
*Site:*_www.SEsolar.com_ http://www.sesolar.com/ | *Address:* 3700 
Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1

_
_http://%20www.sesolar.com/
*** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail



From:   drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org,
Date:   01/02/2015 05:18 PM
Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question
Sent by:RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org






4/0 copper is good for a 24V, 4000 W inverter. What is being used for
multiple inverters?

I've paralleled 4/0 into outback boxes using 2, 2 PVC conduits. It gets
pretty messy trying to put 4 sets of 4/0s into enclosures and battery
boxes (although I have worked on such systems). Does anyone have clean
solutions for these systems?

Thanks,

Drake





 Some other things:  If you keep the conduit less than 24 long, which is
 recommended anyway for main battery connections, the conduit fill
 requirements don't apply. (see exception: 310.15(B)3a2)
 Using table 310.15(B)16 yeilds 230 amps for 4/0 at 75 C.  Then 240.6
 lists 250 amp as the next standard size of OCPD which is allowed to be
 used by 240.4(B)  So you can just justify 4/0.
 Further, many manufacturers (like Midnite) use the open air ampacity
 table: 310.15(B)17, since the cable is not in conduit and 4/0 cable at
 75 C is rated to 360 amps.
 The Free Air interpretation is not completely substantiated in the code
 from my read of it though.  Maybe someone more knowledgable could cite
 the chapter and verse that defines when the free air rating can and
 cannot be used.
 Also remember those breakers are 100% duty cycle rated, and that the
 inverter usually can't run any where close to 250 amps continuously.
 Bottomline is we've been using 4/0 with 250 amp breakers for almost 20
 years, and I've never seen or heard of a problem.

 R.Ray Walters
 CTO, Solarray, Inc
 Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
 Licensed Master Electrician
 Solar Design Engineer
 303 505-8760

 On 1/1/2015 7:23 PM, jay peltz wrote:
 Happy new year all.

 I have a question on wire sizing for the following.

 250 amp breaker, in a UL enclosure ( say midnite or outback etc)
 conduit from battery box to enclosure

 I'm wondering how folks size this for ampacity not voltage drop.

 thanks

 jay

 peltz power





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Re: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question

[Larry]

Jay,

Divide inverter capacity by LVD then divide by full load efficiency. 
Example: 4000 Watt inverter shuts down at 42 volts, efficiency 85% = 
4000/42 = 95A/.85 = 111 Amps. Then it depends on the insulation and 
conductor type and the corrections for ambient temp.


How can you not consider voltage drop? This is important for the surge 
capability of inverters. If the battery-inverter run is long you could 
have significant voltage drop for a wire correctly rated for ampacity.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 1/1/15 7:23 PM, jay peltz wrote:

Happy new year all.

I have a question on wire sizing for the following.

250 amp breaker, in a UL enclosure ( say midnite or outback etc)
conduit from battery box to enclosure

I'm wondering how folks size this for ampacity not voltage drop.

thanks

jay

peltz power





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[RE-wrenches] PV calculator for off grid in South Africa

[Larry]

Does anyone know of an online calculator tool for battery based system 
in S. Africa?


--
Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Panels with 20.1% efficiency rating?

[Larry]

Lou,

Panasonic has 21.1% module efficiency. Too bad the US distribution is 
gone as they are not only efficient but the best performance available 
as well since the demise of Uni-Solar.


Larry

On 12/20/14 9:16 AM, Lou Russo wrote:

Wrenches,

I am looking for panels with a 20.1% efficiency rating or better, that 
are NOT Sun Power. My distributors can not acquire anything even near 
that. Any leads or resources to check would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks!
Aloha,

Lou Russo
(440) 345 6762


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum System - Discharged Battery Bank

[Larry]

Right Bill. We recommend fully charging and then an equalization charge 
on all new flooded batteries. It takes many cycles on a new battery to 
achieve full saturation of all the active material. Because of this 
effect, I believe it is vital to reach 100% SoC regularly during the 
first few months of a battery life.


Larry
 


On 12/19/14 9:34 PM, William Dorsett wrote:


That’s the reason it is so essential to get as fresh a batch as 
possible and make sure all are fully charged before installation.


Bill Dorsett

Manhattan, KS

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] 
*On Behalf Of *Larry

*Sent:* Friday, December 19, 2014 7:07 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum System - Discharged Battery Bank

I have installed/serviced thousands of battery based systems, I have 
not seen any reversed cells either, but I know how it happens.


Here's a thought on what could cause multiple lower capacity cells in 
a bank. From the moment a battery is not being charged, including 
newly assembled batteries, it is self discharging and lead sulfate is 
forming on the plates. If left uncharged or undercharged for months, 
which could be date of assembly to date of installation, the capacity 
could be affected due to ionic bonding (a level 2 sulfate bond 
blocking SO4 from finishing the electrochemical process by discharging 
its electron to Pb). Simply put, less surface area is available so 
there is less capacity. Unless the installation date is within 60 days 
or less of the manufacturing date, this could happen.


If these damaged batteries were then mixed with healthy ones, this 
could account for multiple low capacity cells and the scenario I 
described in my previous email would apply.


  
Larry Crutcher

Starlight Solar Power Systems




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Panels with 20.1% efficiency rating?

[Larry]

Right August, it was the Panasonic HIT 240 that is 21.1% . The newer 
ones are less.


On 12/20/14 9:53 AM, August Goers wrote:


Hi Lou,

The LG Mono X NeON 305 W 60 cell is 18.6% according to their website. 
I think that is about the best non-SunPower option you can readily get 
these days.


http://www.lg.com/us/commercial/solar-panels/lg-LG305N1C-B3

Even Panasonic modules  are only 19.4%: 
http://eu-solar.panasonic.net/en/products/n-240-n-245/


Best, August

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Lou 
Russo

*Sent:* Saturday, December 20, 2014 8:16 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Panels with 20.1% efficiency rating?

Wrenches,

I am looking for panels with a 20.1% efficiency rating or better, that 
are NOT Sun Power. My distributors can not acquire anything even near 
that. Any leads or resources to check would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks!

Aloha,

Lou Russo
(440) 345 6762



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Panels with 20.1% efficiency rating?

[Larry]

Hey Marco,

I pulled the data sheet to scan it and what did I see? CELL efficiency 
is 21.1%, not module efficiency. I guess I told all my customers 
wrongsheesh!


I will email you the data sheet.



Larry

On 12/20/14 10:41 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:


Can you please provide a spec sheet on this mod, Larry?

Thanks,

marco

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] 
*On Behalf Of *Larry

*Sent:* Saturday, December 20, 2014 7:39 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Panels with 20.1% efficiency rating?

Right August, it was the Panasonic HIT 240 that is 21.1% . The newer 
ones are less.


  


On 12/20/14 9:53 AM, August Goers wrote:

Hi Lou,

The LG Mono X NeON 305 W 60 cell is 18.6% according to their
website. I think that is about the best non-SunPower option you
can readily get these days.

http://www.lg.com/us/commercial/solar-panels/lg-LG305N1C-B3

Even Panasonic modules  are only 19.4%:
http://eu-solar.panasonic.net/en/products/n-240-n-245/

Best, August

*From:*RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of
*Lou Russo
*Sent:* Saturday, December 20, 2014 8:16 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Panels with 20.1% efficiency rating?

Wrenches,

I am looking for panels with a 20.1% efficiency rating or better,
that are NOT Sun Power. My distributors can not acquire anything
even near that. Any leads or resources to check would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks!

Aloha,

Lou Russo
(440) 345 6762




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum System - Discharged Battery Bank

[Larry]

Corey,

The reason a cell or a battery in series will reverse polarity is due to 
that cell having a lower capacity than other cells. For example, you 
have a string of 100AH cells. One cell only has a capacity 70AH. If you 
discharge the string more than 70Ah, in order for that cell to continue 
passing current from the string, the voltage will reverse and begin 
climbing in a negative direction.


If it were me, I would pull that cell (cells) from your pack and test 
individually. Fully charge and do a controlled discharge rate. If it 
comes up less capacity than the others it should not be returned to the 
bank. For one reason, the entire string is limited to the lowest 
capacity battery. That battery will always be first to reach full charge 
and first to totally discharge, reversing polarity again. Another reason 
is while charging, it will be severely overcharged while you try to 
reach 100% SoC on the other batteries. If the battery is AGM or GEL, it 
can go into thermal runaway and may cause a fire.


At the very least, charge the bank to 100% SoC and measure the 
temperature of the cell(s) that had reversed. Measure before transition 
to Float charge. If they are hotter than the others, you know you still 
have a problem.



Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 12/19/14 7:48 AM, Corey Shalanski wrote:

Update on my investigation:
I visited the customer's house yesterday to set up a pulse charger. 
Much to my surprise the three batteries that originally registered 
negative voltage are now reading positive. Does this make sense - are 
batteries able to shift between negative and positive voltages at such 
a low charge level?


I do not see any evidence of distorted cases.




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum System - Discharged Battery Bank

[Larry]

Here's a drawing to illustrate. When the 70AH is drained, the string 
voltage will drop because that cell will go to 0 volts. Continued 
discharge will reverse the cell voltage. When charging, the 70AH will 
get full first and be overcharged.


On 12/19/14 9:44 AM, Larry wrote:

Corey,

The reason a cell or a battery in series will reverse polarity is due 
to that cell having a lower capacity than other cells. For example, 
you have a string of 100AH cells. One cell only has a capacity 70AH. 
If you discharge the string more than 70Ah, in order for that cell to 
continue passing current from the string, the voltage will reverse and 
begin climbing in a negative direction.


If it were me, I would pull that cell (cells) from your pack and test 
individually. Fully charge and do a controlled discharge rate. If it 
comes up less capacity than the others it should not be returned to 
the bank. For one reason, the entire string is limited to the lowest 
capacity battery. That battery will always be first to reach full 
charge and first to totally discharge, reversing polarity again. 
Another reason is while charging, it will be severely overcharged 
while you try to reach 100% SoC on the other batteries. If the battery 
is AGM or GEL, it can go into thermal runaway and may cause a fire.


At the very least, charge the bank to 100% SoC and measure the 
temperature of the cell(s) that had reversed. Measure before 
transition to Float charge. If they are hotter than the others, you 
know you still have a problem.



Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 12/19/14 7:48 AM, Corey Shalanski wrote:

Update on my investigation:
I visited the customer's house yesterday to set up a pulse charger. 
Much to my surprise the three batteries that originally registered 
negative voltage are now reading positive. Does this make sense - are 
batteries able to shift between negative and positive voltages at 
such a low charge level?


I do not see any evidence of distorted cases.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum System - Discharged Battery Bank

[Larry]

I have installed/serviced thousands of battery based systems, I have not 
seen any reversed cells either, but I know how it happens.


Here's a thought on what could cause multiple lower capacity cells in a 
bank. From the moment a battery is not being charged, including newly 
assembled batteries, it is self discharging and lead sulfate is forming 
on the plates. If left uncharged or undercharged for months, which could 
be date of assembly to date of installation, the capacity could be 
affected due to ionic bonding (a level 2 sulfate bond blocking SO4 from 
finishing the electrochemical process by discharging its electron to 
Pb). Simply put, less surface area is available so there is less 
capacity. Unless the installation date is within 60 days or less of the 
manufacturing date, this could happen.


If these damaged batteries were then mixed with healthy ones, this could 
account for multiple low capacity cells and the scenario I described in 
my previous email would apply.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 12/19/14 12:23 PM, Jay Peltz wrote:

I find it really curious.
I've been dealing with batteries for almost 20 yrs. I've seen so many 
dead, flat batteries, systems etc I can't count them all.

But I've yet to find a reversed one.
I understand the process.

I'm trying to understand how he could get multiple reversed batteries 
at one go?


Jay
Peltz power


Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 19, 2014, at 9:47 AM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com 
mailto:jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote:



Hi:

This cell reversal ability of lead acid batteries gives good 
perspective on just how much you can mistreat them and beat them up 
and still have an expectation of recovery.


Lithium cells on the other hand without a full range of protections 
would have long since filled the home with all kinds of interesting 
high temperature thermal events, gaseous compounds and chemicals, and 
there is no way you could get that magic smoke back into them.


JARMO
_
*
Jarmo Venalainen*  | *Schneider Electric **|  Solar Business*  | 
*CANADA*  | *Training  Development Specialist - Senior* *
Phone:* +604-422-2528  | *Fax:* +604-420-1591  | *Mobile:* 
+604-505-0291 *
Email:* _jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com_ 
mailto:jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | 
*Site:*_www.SEsolar.com_ http://www.sesolar.com/ | *Address:* 3700 
Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1

_
_mime-attachment.jpg http://%20www.sesolar.com/
*** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail



From: 	Corey Shalanski cshalan...@joule-energy.com 
mailto:cshalan...@joule-energy.com
To: 	re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org,

Date:   12/19/2014 06:48 AM
Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum System - Discharged Battery Bank
Sent by: 	RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org







Update on my investigation:
I visited the customer's house yesterday to set up a pulse charger. 
Much to my surprise the three batteries that originally registered 
negative voltage are now reading positive. Does this make sense - are 
batteries able to shift between negative and positive voltages at 
such a low charge level?


I do not see any evidence of distorted cases.


On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 7:58 AM, _jay@asis.com_ 
mailto:j...@asis.com wrote:


I second tump.
Most likely a bad /cell battery took out the system.
As these are VRLA batteries, I'm curious do,the cases look damaged 
such as expanded or sunk in?


Jay
Peltz power

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Programmable Battery Charger

[Larry]

boB and Jarmo, thanks for great explanations...So, let's dump that 
idea and go back to square one: a programmable 1.5kW charger for 12 volt 
batteries. I have been checking with all the charger manufacturers I can 
find and no one makes this product. Argus said no, Pro Charging said no, 
a few others, no.


Brian, an inverter/charger and remote will work great but that still 
represents $1000 cost and about $1350 to my customer for a 100 amp 
charger. But, so far, this is my only option.


A few years ago Magnum Energy told me they were working on a stand alone 
programmable charger but nothing yet. It probably does not cost much 
less to build than the inverter/charger does.


Thanks to all for the answers.

Thank you,

Larry

On 12/16/14 2:19 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com wrote:


Jarmo, you are absolutely correct.   This is another great reason  NOT 
to use an MPPT charge controller
as an AC sourced battery charger.   Also, if my instructions are not 
followed to a TEE, the CC WILL blow up !


The input capacitors are going to wear out MUCH sooner than a real 
charger because of the 60Hz or 120
Hz ripple shown in Jarmo's graph.  Capacitor ripple abuse was one 
answer to one of Larry's questions about long term

reliability.


Also, if the input diodes short, you are applying AC directly to the 
input capacitors and

will go POOF as well as the power section.

And you would NOT know that you needed an input power resistor first 
or possibly where
to even find one of the correct resistor values and power ratings if 
the input source is stiff.
This is the scariest problem in my mind  Too high of input max 
power voltage, overcurrent

and then, battery voltage regulation will overshoot without that resistor.

I would just spend the extra money and do this right in the first 
place and don't try to

cut corners on price.

Brian Teitelbaum had the best idea I think...  Just buy an inverter 
with a power factor corrected
charger like the newer Schneider SW inverter/charger (I think that was 
the one ?) or one of
the MSW Magnums.  Or, a decent charger if one exists.  Haven't seen 
the Argus/Alpha one.


MPPT charge controllers are really just NOT designed for this. 
(although they might work for a while).


In fact, Ryan from MidNite Solar blew up several Classics at first.

But knowing that some folks are going to try this, I thought it best 
to give at least some directions.


Thanks,
boB


On 12/16/2014 12:34 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote:

Hi:

I'm enjoying learning many new ways of looking at things and of 
practical solutions on this forum.  In that spirit, the only thing I 
would add to this discussion is that the power factor as seen by the 
AC source will be very poor.  In that regard, the larger the caps, 
the more stable the DC voltage, but the poorer the PF.


This will show up as much lower charging efficiency due to the way in 
which AC current is drawn by the bridge rectifier/capacitor circuit. 
 Here's an actual graph of how a bridge rectifier connected to a 
capacitor draws AC current,




The graph is from my past life a couple of decades ago back when I 
was studying.  It's not a conventional phase-shift PF problem, but 
rather a form factor PF problem.  It shows the current drawn by a 13 
PC monitor of that era, before PF correction was mandated for all new 
products.  In this example the 'crest factor', (peak current as 
measured versus what it could have been if the current was drawn 
throughout the AC pulses, was about 4x).  Depending on the size of 
capacitor, it can be as high as 7x.


The practical effect on the wires and devices including the diodes 
and charge controller, is that a lot of heat is generated in their 
power components.  The source of the energy for that heat is the AC 
source and in cases where the AC source is a generator that 
translates to much higher fuel consumption, (in some cases over 30% 
more).


Out of my tests back then, I also discovered one practical 
recommendation.


If you are using bridge rectifiers connected to capacitors, do not 
have any length of wire and in particular no loop area in the wires 
between the bridge rectifier and capacitors.  Having wire/loop area 
introduces inductance into the circuit which behaves somewhat like an 
ignition coil due to the high speed reverse recovery period of the 
diodes; and this happens four times every AC cycle.  Given the right 
conditions the voltage spikes caused by that inductance/ignition coil 
like effect will make short work of the diodes and other components 
which are on the circuit.


The voltage spikes wont be a problem if the bridge rectifier is as 
close as possible to the capacitors, but due to reverse recovery 
effect, you'll still be stressing the parts and heating wires.


In my opinion, its ok to do this, but I wouldn't push power levels to 
anywhere near the limits of components and devices.


JARMO

Re: [RE-wrenches] Programmable Battery Charger

[Larry]

I must have missed the prior discussion about using PV CC. The concept 
sounds good but how many of you have done this and are there any 
pitfalls to be aware of? If I use a 20 amp bridge I should be able to 
produce 80 amps @ 14.4V. For continuous operation, will I need a large 
heat sink on it?


How does the unfiltered full wave peak voltage affect the CC over time? 
Are they (specifically Midnite) really designed to handle input waveform 
like this? I like this idea, especially if I can stack the controllers.


Thank you,

Larry

On 12/15/14 6:51 PM, jay peltz wrote:

Hi Kirk,

If you use a 200vdc midnight CC you'll have no issues.
When you rectify 120vac its up around 166vdc
( uses the peak vac which is around 170vac.)

For a 150vdc max controller ( midnite 150)  or a 144vdc ( outback FM) 
then a buck transformer or standard transformer is the trick to reduce 
the AC and hence the DC for these lower voltage units.


jay
peltz power
On Dec 15, 2014, at 5:38 PM, Kirk Herander wrote:

This has been discussed on this list in years past. It is possible to 
use an outback charge controller as a battery charger. You need to 
put the 120 AC into a bridge rectifier, then feed the 120 DC into the 
controller’s PV input. So you’ll have an 80 amp battery charger.

*Kirk Herander*
*VT Solar, LLC*
*/Proven PV provider since 1991/*
*www.vermontsolarnow.com*
dba Vermont Solar Engineering
NABCEP^TMInaugural Certificant
VT RE Incentive Program Partner
802.863.1202
*From:*RE-wrenches 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]*On Behalf Of*Dan 
Tittmann

*Sent:*Monday, December 15, 2014 8:18 PM
*To:*i...@windsine.org mailto:i...@windsine.org; RE-wrenches
*Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Programmable Battery Charger
You can manually adjust Iotas with tweaking the potentiomiters while 
monitoring it with a god volt meter. But no time adjustment.

Daniel

Daniel Tittmann
CTO
Greenwired
www.greenwired.com http://www.greenwired.com
dan...@greenwired.com mailto:dan...@greenwired.com
707-923-2001 (office)
707-206-5088 (Cell)
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Windsine Inc. winds...@gmail.com 
mailto:winds...@gmail.com wrote:


Check out Argus Technologies.

RoyR

On Dec 15, 2014 4:01 PM, Larry la...@starlightsolar.com 
mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com wrote:


Wrenches,

Does anyone know of a 120/12 volt battery charger that can be 
programmed for absorb and float voltage and time in absorb mode? I 
have been needing this product for many years but I can only find it 
in inverters with built in chargers from Magnum, Outback, and Xantrex.


--
Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



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[RE-wrenches] Programmable Battery Charger

[Larry]

Wrenches,

Does anyone know of a 120/12 volt battery charger that can be programmed 
for absorb and float voltage and time in absorb mode? I have been 
needing this product for many years but I can only find it in inverters 
with built in chargers from Magnum, Outback, and Xantrex.


--
Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

[Larry]

You ask a simple question to this group and stunning brilliance floods 
my inbox. RE-Wrenches, You are truly amazing. Thanks to all that 
discussed this for the knowledge I have gained.


Larry


On 12/2/14 3:47 PM, Daniel Young wrote:


It all boils down to how ampacity is determined in the NEC.

Ampacity is really related to temperature as far as the NEC is 
concerned. The ampacity of a 1/0 wire at 90c is the constant current 
it can carry in free air (30 C air) and not achieve an internal 
temperature of more than 90 C. the 75 c ampacity is the same, the 
amperage it can carry while not going over 75 C.


Now, if you double the diameter of a circle, the circumference also 
doubles, but the cross sectional Area actually goes up much more (4x 
more in fact) because cross sectional area is based on the square of 
the diameter and circumference is simply based on the diameter ^1 power.


Wire dissipates heat from its surface only, so the dimension critical 
for the amount of heat a wire can dissipate is circumference, not 
cross sectional area. So even though the wire is larger and has a much 
lower resistance, the heat dissipating area does not increase by as 
much, so in the end the larger wire has a lower current carrying 
capacity per unit cross sectional area, than a smaller wire.


Here is an example that lets me keep the math simple: (the #’s are all 
round #’s and not based on real ampacities/resistances, just to keep 
the math simple.)


Wire 1:

A diameter of 10 units and can carry 100A through it and stay at 90C. 
It has a resistance of 1 ohm/1000ft.


Wire 2:

A diameter of 20 units. It has 4times the cross sectional area, and 
double the circumference (which means 2x the outer surface area) to 
dissipate heat. It has a resistance of .25 ohm/1000ft (1/4 that of 
wire 1 since it has 4x the amount of copper to carry current).


For wire 1 to stay at 90 C, it has to dissipate (P=I^2*R), 
P=(100amps^2)*1 omh=10,000 watts per unit of outer surface area.


So if Wire 2 has double the surface area to dissipate heat, it can 
dissipate about 2x the energy, or 20,000watts. So if we work it 
backwards (P=I^2*R is the same as I=sqrt[P/R]) 
I=sqrt[20,000/.25]=sqrt[8]=282amps


So wire 2 can handle (282amps/100amps)=2.8 times the amperage, even 
though it has 4times the cross sectional area, all because it only has 
2 times the surface are to get rid of heat. There are other factors 
with heat transfer that make the larger wire have even lower ampacity, 
but this demonstrates the main contributing factor.


[In the NEC table 310.15(B) we see that a 250kcmill copper wire 
handles 255A @75C, and a 100kcmill (4x the area) can only take 545A, 
or 2.2 times the current, so not too far from my example].


I hope the above helps more than it hurts.

With Regards,

Daniel Young,

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional^TM : Cert #031508-90

NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer^TM : Cert #SH031409-13




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[RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

[Larry]

Wrenches,

If I combine 3 conductors of equal length in parallel, is the resulting 
size equal to 3 times the Circular Mil area? For example, #4 is 42,080cm 
so are three #4's close to 2/0 (134,200cm) in size? Is it as simple as 
this? Assuming the conductors can not be removed individually, does this 
mean the current capacity is equal to the resulting wire size?


Thanks, Larry
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

[Larry]

OK, let's use 1/0 for the example. 108,350 x 3 = 325,050. Do I now have 
a cable between 300 and 350 AWG?


Thank you,

Larry

On 12/2/14 10:51 AM, Bill Turberville wrote:


The minimum conductor size that can be paralleled, according to the 
NEC is 1/0.


William C. Turberville P.E.

President

Electrical Contracting Enterprises LLC

3080 Stage Post Dr ste 107

Bartlett, TN 38133

901-348-9230 ext 101 phone

901-289-6346 cell

901-348-2192 FAX

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of 
*Jerry Shafer

*Sent:* Tuesday, December 02, 2014 11:45 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

We have installed multible mcm 500 to meet this and there were three 
on each leg but that was because of the required size and bending room

Jerry

On Dec 2, 2014 7:43 AM, Larry la...@starlightsolar.com 
mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com wrote:


Wrenches,

If I combine 3 conductors of equal length in parallel, is the 
resulting size equal to 3 times the Circular Mil area? For example, #4 
is 42,080cm so are three #4's close to 2/0 (134,200cm) in size? Is it 
as simple as this? Assuming the conductors can not be removed 
individually, does this mean the current capacity is equal to the 
resulting wire size?


Thanks, Larry



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

[Larry]

That's the part that is throwing me off. If I have 3 times the circular 
mil and compare that to a single conductor of similar circular mil, how 
do I have 3 times the ampacity? These are very different numbers.


Example: 1/0 @ 90c is 170 amps x 3 = 510 amps. 510A is what a conductor 
just over 750 AWG will carry. The circular mils of 3 1/0 cables is only 
325,050 or a 325 AWG cable which would be rated at about 330 amps.


So, is it 510 amps (3x the ampacity) or 330 amps (3x circular mil)? And, 
more importantly, why?


Larry

On 12/2/14 11:14 AM, Bill Turberville wrote:


I am sorry.  Bad fingers.  Three times the ampacity under the same 
conditions.


*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Larry

*Sent:* Tuesday, December 02, 2014 12:09 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

OK, let's use 1/0 for the example. 108,350 x 3 = 325,050. Do I now 
have a cable between 300 and 350 AWG?


Thank you,
  
Larry


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

[Larry]

Hey boB,

This is the reference table I was using. They show 325 AWG and 325kCM 
refer to the same diameter cable but I should have used kcm for clarity.


If all insulation/temp rating is the same we are back to my original 
question. Anyone else able to explain this? To be safe I am leaning 
toward using the combined CM number to size for current rather than 3 
times the ampacity as that just makes no sense to me.



On 12/2/14 3:54 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com wrote:


The area of the conductor will be 3 times and you would think that 
the NEC Ampacity would also be 3 times
that of one conductor.   But one LARGE conductor with the same area 
might not be as high as you think
because of insulation.  I would think that ampacity of 3 cables in 
parallel would be 3 times.  But probably
not when you take a single cable of the 3X area out of the NEC table.  
(I haven't looked at this to verify)


Also,  Larry,  325 AWG 750 AWG (gauge) wire is a bit too small for 
this, don't you think ?


I know...  You mean circular mils...
boB






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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aqueous Hybrid Ion batteries

[Larry Crutcher]

David,

Something does not add up to me. The cell has a voltage discharge curve 
way outside of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I can't see how 
this technology could be scaled to RE applications without wasting much 
of the capacity. From what I see, only about 40% could be used before LVD.



On 11/10/14 10:10 AM, Dave wrote:


Wrenches,

I have a customer with a grid-tied w battery back-up (formerly 
off-grid) with failing LA batteries. He found these batteries on the 
web and asked me to check them out.


Anyone out there know anything about this AHI technology and or this 
company, Aquion Energy? 
*http://www.aquionenergy.com/microgrid-energy-storage*


**

Thanks,

David Palumbo

Independent Power LLC

462 Solar Way Drive

Hyde Park, VT 05655

802-888-7194



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Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Mac,

Li-ion batteries are connected the same as any other deep cycle, positive and 
negative terminals. The Battery management is done actively on each cell. The 
brand that we sell has a CPU that receives serial data from the string of 
“sense” boards that are monitoring temperature and voltage per cell. The sense 
boards also function to balance the cells after they reach 2.55 volts per cell. 
There is a 0.5 amp shunt on the cells that are higher and this allows the 
current to continue charging cells that are lower. 

The management system is strictly DC. You can charge from a number of sources.

Larry  


On Sep 16, 2014, at 6:44 AM, Mac Lewis maclew...@gmail.com wrote:

Hello wrenches,

How do you get PV power into the battery management system?  Are there PV 
application specific battery management systems, or are these AC loads?

Thanks


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Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi William,

I have designed and installed a few lithium iron battery banks. We now stock 
the GBS line and plan to add additional brands soon. My experience is very 
positive toward the performance and future of LFP and LFMP as a replacement to 
lead acid for off grid, stand-by and mobile use. As the price point continues 
to drop and manufacturers begin to support this technology, I can see it 
replacing all lead acid designs. But, I’m no Ray Kurzweil. What would you like 
to know?

Larry

On Sep 15, 2014, at 5:28 PM, William Miller will...@millersolar.com wrote:

Wrenches:
 
Does anyone have any experience with Lithium Ferrous Phosphate cells?  What are 
your experiences?  I am looking at an installation tomorrow and would like some 
input.
 
Thanks in advance.
 
William Miller
 
image003.jpg
Lic 773985
millersolar.com
805-438-5600

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid-tie inverter for wind generator

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Chris,

I would not touch that with a..….20 foot pole. It will never work right and he 
will assign you the blame when he sees his electric bill go down by $1 per 
month.

Larry

On Sep 5, 2014, at 9:42 AM, Chris Daum ch...@oasismontana.com wrote:

One killowatt, and three wire.  He's been using it with some heating elements 
as a dump load, to make hot water.  And he just sent me a picture -- heck, it's 
on something like a 20 ft. pole, so no wonder it's not making much power!  Also 
he doesn't want to spend a lot of money, so I suspect the Aurora (which would 
be a pretty good deal) will still be too costly for him.
 
His machine's output is put through rectifiers to make the battery voltage. 
 
--Chris @ the Oasis Montana

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower off grid?

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello Ray,

I have been installing SunPower cell modules for about a decade. All of our 
mobile installations are ungrounded arrays, off grid we use negative ground. We 
have never had any issue using them to charge batteries up to 48 volts, even 
when combined in series. I have not installed any for grid tie.

Last year I purchased about 100 of the 327 and 435 Watt modules, likely from 
the same seller, for a very low price. There is no SunPower label on the back. 
I was told that these modules were laminates that SunPower rejected due to 
cosmetic flaws. The surface has lots of blemishes clearly visible under the 
glass. Someone other than SunPower made frames and assembled the module. The 
frame quality is not so great and the 435 structurally feels inadequate. I sell 
these to off grid customers in Mexico that want cheap but high performance PV 
solar power.

That’s all...

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Aug 20, 2014, at 10:46 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote:

Greetings fellow Wrenches;

I have a customer that just purchased some Sunpower E20 -435 modules somehow 
from Ebay, and wants me to design a backup power system for him.
This system would be battery based and not be grid tied.  SO the question is: 
has Sunpower put to rest the positive grounding issue with these modules?
I would want to either use a negative ground system or go ungrounded, as the 
charge controllers and battery based inverter do not play well with a positive 
grounded system.
My idea is that I could run these modules at lower voltage, either all in 
parallel (85.6 Voc) or 2 in series (191 Voc) with Midnite Classic controllers, 
and that the whole surface polarization issue will be minimized at these lower 
voltages.
I know this came up before, and Sunpower basically said they would revoke their 
warranty for any battery based systems, (which is why I'm no longer a Sunpower 
dealer :)
Don't the newer Sunpower modules no longer need positive ground, and if so, 
which models is this true for?  In this case, the warranty is already suspect, 
so that's not an issue.  It just has to work safely.

Thanks in advance for your help,

-- 
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

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Re: [RE-wrenches] WorkTruck Inverter Suggestions

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Bill,

I’m probably stating the obvious but we always install mobile inverters closest 
to the battery due to the high loss at 12 volts, then run AC to the point of 
use.

Larry


On Aug 7, 2014, at 7:07 AM, Bill Loesch solar1onl...@charter.net wrote:


Gentlemen:

Does anyone have any suggestions/preferences on mounting the inverter 
streetside or curbside on the service body pickup?

TIA,

-- 
Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Battery....was 2v metal cased cells

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

$360/kWh is a good price. Can you share the brand with us or email me off list? 
We sell Li-ion (LFMP) at our store but I include a CPU, protection solenoids, 
battery capacity meter and video display. My dealer cost is quite a bit higher 
than you were quoted.


Larry

On Jul 12, 2014, at 11:42 AM, Phil Lawes p...@insoltechsolar.com wrote:

Just curious if fellow wrenches are looking at Li-on batteries. We were just
quoted a 50KWHR at 48 volt battery pack with enclosure and BMS for $ 360.00
per KWHR or $0.36 per watt hour.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver Battery

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello Bob,

We began selling FullRiver about 4 years ago and probably have over 200 systems 
installed. We have had no failures or issues with them. One aspect I like is 
the high acceptance voltage of 2.483 Vpc. Higher voltage means more power into 
the battery so you are charging faster. The 2 volt L16 (1150AH @ C20 rate) is 
very popular at our store. I might go as far as saying they are comparable in 
quality and performance to Lifeline battery.

Cost is about 10% less than Lifeline, and 20% less than SunXtender. Made in 
China so I don’t promote them as I do US made Lifeline which is our best 
selling battery.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Jul 2, 2014, at 3:58 PM, RE Ellison reelli...@gmail.com wrote:

What has been everybody’s experience with Full River Batteries?
 
Bob
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum and Pumps

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Drake,

If the Enphase are online, up to 60 amps (30A @ 240V) can be transferred 
through the Magnum inverter to loads. The inverter is not providing power to 
loads at that time. If the Enphase go offline, the Magnum takes over using 
power from the battery. If the load is greater than your Enphase system can 
provide, the Magnum will transfer to battery power based on the VAC dropout 
setting. You probably want to use the UPS mode (read ME-ARC manual about this).

The new Magnum MSH models can combine AC input power and battery power to 
increase the total AC output capacity for starting heavy loads. 

Larry



On Jul 3, 2014, at 7:59 AM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:

This information helps greatly. I really appreciate all of your expert advice.

One other wild card in the installation is that the inverter is going to be AC 
coupled with an Enphase system. The Enphase system will contribute greatly to 
the overall power available in the protected loads panel. But, with Magnum's 
slow voltage response I'm not sure if the Enphase system will drop off line 
when the pump surges, or if the Enphase power will be available to help with 
the startup surge. 

Any insights on this?

Thank you,

Drake
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum and Pumps

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Yes Drake, I stand corrected, I was picturing the micro inverters feeding the 
input rather than coupling the output of the Magnum. To your original question, 
I think you would have to be consuming more power than the PV array alone can 
provide before the Magnum voltage would drop with the pump load. So it may be a 
rare event unless the PV array is small. Of course after sundown its all on the 
Magnum. That’s why I suggested two Magnums in my first response.
 
Does anyone know how tolerant the Enphase inverters are of such a momentary sag?

Larry



On Jul 3, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:

Hi Larry,

In this case, the Enphase will AC couple with the Magnum in the protected loads 
panel. The AC out of the Magnum provides the micro grid to which the Enphase 
connects. If  charging exceeds loads, when the grid is down, power will go to 
the batteries (up to the high battery voltage set point). If loads are greater 
than the output of the Enphase system, the Magnum will produce power to feed 
the loads.

Thanks,

Drake

At 10:55 AM 7/3/2014, you wrote:
 Hi Drake,
 
 If the Enphase are online, up to 60 amps (30A @ 240V) can be transferred 
 through the Magnum inverter to loads. The inverter is not providing power to 
 loads at that time. If the Enphase go offline, the Magnum takes over using 
 power from the battery. If the load is greater than your Enphase system can 
 provide, the Magnum will transfer to battery power based on the VAC dropout 
 setting. You probably want to use the UPS mode (read ME-ARC manual about 
 this).
 
 The new Magnum MSH models can combine AC input power and battery power to 
 increase the total AC output capacity for starting heavy loads.
 
 Larry
 
 
 
 On Jul 3, 2014, at 7:59 AM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org 
 wrote:
 
 This information helps greatly. I really appreciate all of your expert advice.
 
 One other wild card in the installation is that the inverter is going to be 
 AC coupled with an Enphase system. The Enphase system will contribute greatly 
 to the overall power available in the protected loads panel. But, with 
 Magnum's slow voltage response I'm not sure if the Enphase system will drop 
 off line when the pump surges, or if the Enphase power will be available to 
 help with the startup surge.
 
 Any insights on this?
 
 Thank you,
 
 Drake
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum and Pumps

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

If you have a clamp on meter that can capture inrush current (I use a Fluke 337 
for this) you can get a good idea of the starting current needed.

One problem is that while backing up the house, you will likely have other 
loads operating when the pump starts which will decrease the available surge 
current. I would recommend using a stacked pair of 4448’s as a minimum if you 
have other house loads. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Jul 2, 2014, at 8:17 AM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

We are hoping to use a Magnum PAE 4448 to back up a household that includes a 
3/4 HP deep well pump. There is about 120 feet of vertical rise and about 1000 
feet of horizontal distance. 

I have been told that there is a correlation between the locked rotor current 
of a pump and the predictable ability of a specified inverter to power that 
pump. 

The plumber who installed the pump left no paperwork and retained no records of 
what pump he put in the hole last year. He could only say it was a 3/4 HP pump. 
We are therefore unable to obtain the manufacturer's nameplate specifications.

The Magnum PAE 4448 has a 1 mS surge of 70 A (at 240 V) and a 100 MS surge of 
40 A. According to the NEC Table 430.251(A), a 3/4 HP motor has a locked rotor 
current of 41.4 amps at 230 V. 

This inverter can surge at 35.4 A for 5 seconds. The specified battery bank 
will be 8 Full River  L-16 AGMs. Can anyone say if:
Is there enough information to know if this setup will handle the pump, and if 
so, will it?
How can an inverter's ability to power a motor or pump be calculated by knowing 
its locked rotor current? Which surge periods should be compared to the locked 
rotor current?
Does the surge current need to equal locked rotor. How long must the inverter 
meet its required maximum surge?
From experience with Magnums and pumps, does this seem like a good combination?

Thank you,

Drake 

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/ 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum and Pumps

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Roy,

The FullRiver DC400-6 AGM battery can issue 2000 amps for 5 seconds so he 
should be fine.

Larry

On Jul 2, 2014, at 12:35 PM, Roy Butler r...@four-winds-energy.com wrote:

I haven't seen anyone mention the battery bank. If I understand correctly, 
there's a single string of sealed
L16 batteries on this inverter. I have my doubts as to whether or not that bank 
can provide the high current
the inverter needs to start this load.
Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
NYSERDA eligible PV  wind installer
IREC Certified Master Trainer™ for Small Wind Installer
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747  www.four-winds-energy.com

Join us at the 10th Annual Small Wind Conference
A Gathering of Installers, Manufacturers, Dealers,  Distributors
June 17 and 18, 2014 in Stevens Point, Wisconsin
www.smallwindconference.com

Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, 
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.


On 7/2/2014 2:10 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
 To further qualify my statements, the inverter will start the pump without 
 issue, but I should echo the warnings by others that if there are other loads 
 present, especially other motor loads that could start ​concurrently, you may 
 experience issues. As long as your customer understands the limitations and 
 possibilities, you may be just fine.
 
 
 Jason Szumlanski
 ​ Fafco Solar​ 
 
 
 
 On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 11:00 AM, Jason Szumlanski ja...@fafcosolar.com 
 wrote:
 For what it's worth, I've run a single speed 1.5HP pool pump with a MS4448PAE 
 in a mobile application on a 38.4kWh battery bank (sixteen Rolls S-530's). I 
 have also run a 2.5HP Hayward EcoStar Variable Speed pool pump at full RPM, 
 but that startup current is likely less than you well pump.
 
 I'm going to guess your 3/4HP well pump will be a breeze to start with this 
 inverter.
 
 
 Jason Szumlanski 
 ​ Fafco Solar​ 
 
 
 On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com 
 wrote:
 Drake,
 As a normal CYA, I'll always gently let a customer know that this (or any) 
 particular combination of inverter and load sometimes proves incompatible, 
 just in case the unexpected happens. (We once had a MS4448 that would not 
 reliably start and run a condensing boiler; a switch to a different boiler 
 resolved the issue.)
 
 Having said that note of caution, I wouldn't give it any concern. 3/4 HP and 
 1 HP well pumps have never been an issue; I would expect 1.5 HP to be easy to 
 run. At 2 HP I'd be asking these questions here. 
 
 You might check that it's a 3-wire, capacitor-start motor, but nowadays 
 nearly all are. Two-wire pumps (with no control box) can add 50% to the surge.
 
 The Magnum has a fairly poor voltage regulation response. Sometimes the AC 
 voltage can drop to ~80 VAC momentarily. So you might also caution your 
 customer that the lights may flicker when the pump starts. In our home we 
 know whenever our Kenmore fridge turns on.
 
 Allan
 
 Allan Sindelar
 al...@sindelarsolar.com
 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
 NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
 New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
 Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
 505 780-2738 cell
 
 
  
 On 7/2/2014 8:17 AM, Drake wrote:
 Hello Wrenches,
 
 We are hoping to use a Magnum PAE 4448 to back up a household that includes 
 a 3/4 HP deep well pump. There is about 120 feet of vertical rise and about 
 1000 feet of horizontal distance. 
 
 I have been told that there is a correlation between the locked rotor 
 current of a pump and the predictable ability of a specified inverter to 
 power that pump. 
 
 The plumber who installed the pump left no paperwork and retained no records 
 of what pump he put in the hole last year. He could only say it was a 3/4 HP 
 pump. We are therefore unable to obtain the manufacturer's nameplate 
 specifications.
 
 The Magnum PAE 4448 has a 1 mS surge of 70 A (at 240 V) and a 100 MS surge 
 of 40 A. According to the NEC Table 430.251(A), a 3/4 HP motor has a locked 
 rotor current of 41.4 amps at 230 V. 
 
 This inverter can surge at 35.4 A for 5 seconds. The specified battery bank 
 will be 8 Full River  L-16 AGMs. Can anyone say if:
 Is there enough information to know if this setup will handle the pump, and 
 if so, will it?
 How can an inverter's ability to power a motor or pump be calculated by 
 knowing its locked rotor current? Which surge periods should be compared to 
 the locked rotor current?
 Does the surge current need to equal locked rotor. How long must the 
 inverter meet its required maximum surge?
 From experience with Magnums and pumps, does this seem like a good 
 combination?
 
 Thank you,
 
 Drake 
 
 Drake Chamberlin
 Athens Electric LLC
 OH License 44810
 CO License 3773
 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
 740-448-7328
 http://athens-electric.com/ 
 
 
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[RE-wrenches] Trace SW4024 LCD display problem

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

I am looking for someone that can repair the SW4024 LCD control. The display is 
getting to dim to view.

Thank you,

Larry








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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Damage - Need Replacements (Correction)

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Dan,

You mentioned that “his grounds didn't work”. Actually, they worked, just in an 
undesirable way. One thing to look at is how or whether the house ground system 
was bonded to the tower ground. If they were not properly bonded, and with poor 
soil condition, the potential difference between the two grounds could create 
very high voltages. The voltage path would be the turbine wiring to find the 
house ground, traveling through any AC connected items to do so.

I would like to hear more about this as it’s a personal subject of study for me.

Larry Crutcher


On Jun 15, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Exeltech exelt...@yahoo.com wrote:

Hello Chris,

….The system is off-grid north of Fort Worth, Texas.  The house and equipment 
are sitting on and in the worst caliche I've ever seen.  It's as close to 
concrete as you can get.  There's virtually no topsoil.  Watering grounds won't 
help .. even poured into a hole.  It just sits there.  They had to jackhammer 
to dig the tower hole.

He's got a 110' tower for his Bergey.  He told me they drove numerous grounds 
diagonally into the bottom of the tower hole from the edges, bonded them all 
together, then connected everything to the tower, as well as the other 
equipment using #4 AWG solid.  All of the guy wires are equally bonded.  
Lightning hit the tower directly, but the fact is .. his grounds didn't work.  
Everything electrical in the house was destroyed.  Didn't matter if it was 
turned on or off.

The only things that DID survive are his batteries (as far as he can tell) .. 
and the Bergey itself.  He connected a three-phase diode array directly to the 
Bergey output leads, and it's charging his batteries, just not as well as with 
the controller in place (of course).  The genny runs smoothly in the wind, 
meaning all three phases are intact.  If one or two phases were open, you'd see 
it and hear it in the motion of the blades - much the same effect on the engine 
if you had a plug wire fall off.  If you're a wind person (how can you NOT be 
in Montana?) .. you already knew that.

He may bonded everything to his well casing.  I don't know - but I'll ask.  
This is indeed a good learning opportunity.


I'm going to help him get things operating again .. and will highly recommend 
some of the new lightning protection units Midnite is making.

In the meantime .. charge controllers and inverters first.


Thanks!


Dan


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Kyocera 120's low voltage

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

David,

Kyocera KC-120-1’s from 1999 to Dec 2002 will fail from a defective solder 
joint. Although out of warranty, they are still be warranted by Kyocera and 
replaced with a remanufactured KC-120-1R. Contact them 
(rae.parafin...@kyocera.com) with the serial numbers and mfg dates to get an 
RMA started. 

We keep the remanufactured units in stock at our store because we see so many 
of these. Kyocera will also pay labor to replace them. 

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems





On Jun 11, 2014, at 4:47 PM, Dave d...@independentpowerllc.com wrote:

Wrenches,
 
I troubleshot an underperforming off grid array today and found low Voc's in 4 
out of 10 KC-120's (nominal 12v modules rated at 21.5 Voc and 7.45 Isc).  
Modules are vintage 2000.
Under modest sunlight (500 to 600W per M sqd) 6 modules measured from 18 to 19 
Voc and 4 Isc. Four modules measured from 9.6 to 13.7 Voc and 4 Isc.
 
I was chased off the roof by a coming thunderstorm and did not check for bad 
diodes. These modules have nice old school J-boxes with 6 diodes per each 
module.
 
Am I looking at a diode issue, or failing modules?
 
Thanking you in advance for your time,
 
David Palumbo
Independent Power LLC
462 Solar Way Drive
Hyde Park, VT 05655
802-888-7194
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery cable crimper

[larry]

Hi Allen,It is huskie, not Husky. Ithink my auto correct unfixed it. I purchased this one used. I think it was about $1800. When I get back to the office tomorrow, I'll check the model #. It is a dieless design with 4 points that crimp from #4 to 4/0 ( I think it goes to 500). We make well over 300 crimps per month and this tool has been fast and flawless.Larry


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery cable crimper
From: Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com
Date: Thu, May 01, 2014 4:20 pm
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

 Larry, OK, need more info please...  "Husky" is a Home Depot house brand for tools. "Huskie" makes hydraulic and battery powered crimpers costing up to $2500. What's the specific brand and model? Did you get this from Home Depot or otherwise, and what did you pay?  Thanks, Allan  Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell  On 5/1/2014 4:46 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:   Ray, 
This might be a "great mind think alike" moment..…I own all 4 of those crimpers also. But, the best money I ever spent was on this Husky battery operated monster. I can reach into an area when replacing a lug that you could never reach with other crimpers.

Larry
 
On Apr 30, 2014, at 11:08 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote:

Here's all the battery lug crimpers I tried over the years in order of the best to worst connections they produced:
bdbagfhj.jpg
Yes, believe it or not: the venerable Hammer crimper makes excellent connections.  Its also Cheap, but its Slow, cumbersome, and can't be used in a J box.
The V and indent connection with the thin wall lugs makes the ideal battery and DC connections.  They look just like the crimps from Outback, Trace, Midnite,etc.  I've cut them open on a band saw, and the fine strands are practically fused together into an almost solid cross section of copper with no voids, but no tearing of strands at the edges either.
This crimper goes out on most jobs, as it fits in the bottom of the tool box.
fhibhicd.jpg
The Greenlee indentor crimper makes the same V  crimp connection as the hammer crimper, but is faster, and can be used up in a j box.  More expensive, and adjuster readings can't be counted on.  I tighten the adjuster until I can just pull the handle down with putting some body weight into it, but not so much that I'm standing on it or straining the tool.  Depending on the cable and lug combination, the setting may be 2 sizes smaller with thin wall lugs.
Overall, this is what we use most of the time.  I found that this set in a drill vice makes a good bench crimper, when you need to do a batch of battery jumpers.

fcafcjdi.jpg
I used this one for many years, also a V crimper, but has different dies.  Crimp quality was not as good, as the dies tore into the lug some.  Also changing the dies took time, and we once lost one of the dies, and it took months to get a replacement.  Not adjustable for different lug and cable combos.

bfdddceg.jpg
The "UL" Hex type crimper that you will find at regular electrical supply houses.  Quite expensive, but I am not a fan.  The dies bend slightly under pressure and so the hex crimps are not aligned with each other.  The dies tear the lugs, leaving sharp edges that can tear heat shrink, and there is no adjustment available to account for different cable and lug combinations.  
We have  X flex from Cobra, MTW from Quick Cable, and some DLO from another supplier.  All are UL listed 4/0 and all somewhat different in diam. and how the strands crush.  I have had a connection failure with this tool, and cutting through a cross section of the lug was not as solid a crimp as the V type.  I removed this tool from our shop, to avoid mistakes.
I'm sure with regular Class B stranded THHN, and the heavy wall, color coded lugs, that this is a good tool, but for battery connections, it does not work as well with thin wall lugs.
Finally, I do not recommend the heavy wall, long barrel lugs on batteries.  The square lug end is just too big and thick, and can't bolt to battery terminals in some cases.  We have had to grind away a corner for instance to have the heavy wall lugs land on an battery Flag terminal.  
The heavy terminals some what negate the advantages of flex cable in the first place.
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery cable crimper

[larry]

Here's one almost identical to mine:http://www.ebay.com/itm/GREENLEE-GATOR-PLUS-EK06AT-CRIMPER-TOOL-/261468069343?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3ce0b61ddf


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery cable crimper
From: la...@starlightsolar.com
Date: Thu, May 01, 2014 4:51 pm
To: "RE-wrenches" re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Hi Allen,It is huskie, not Husky. Ithink my auto correct unfixed it. I purchased this one used. I think it was about $1800. When I get back to the office tomorrow, I'll check the model #. It is a dieless design with 4 points that crimp from #4 to 4/0 ( I think it goes to 500). We make well over 300 crimps per month and this tool has been fast and flawless.Larry    Original Message  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery cable crimper From: Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com Date: Thu, May 01, 2014 4:20 pm To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org  Larry, OK, need more info please...  "Husky" is a Home Depot house brand for tools. "Huskie" makes hydraulic and battery powered crimpers costing up to $2500. What's the specific brand and model? Did you get this from Home Depot or otherwise, and what did you pay?  Thanks, Allan Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell  On 5/1/2014 4:46 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:   Ray, 
This might be a "great mind think alike" moment..…I own all 4 of those crimpers also. But, the best money I ever spent was on this Husky battery operated monster. I can reach into an area when replacing a lug that you could never reach with other crimpers.

Larry
 On Apr 30, 2014, at 11:08 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote:

Here's all the battery lug crimpers I tried over the years in order of the best to worst connections they produced:
bdbagfhj.jpg
Yes, believe it or not: the venerable Hammer crimper makes excellent connections.  Its also Cheap, but its Slow, cumbersome, and can't be used in a J box.
The V and indent connection with the thin wall lugs makes the ideal battery and DC connections.  They look just like the crimps from Outback, Trace, Midnite,etc.  I've cut them open on a band saw, and the fine strands are practically fused together into an almost solid cross section of copper with no voids, but no tearing of strands at the edges either.
This crimper goes out on most jobs, as it fits in the bottom of the tool box.
fhibhicd.jpg
The Greenlee indentor crimper makes the same V  crimp connection as the hammer crimper, but is faster, and can be used up in a j box.  More expensive, and adjuster readings can't be counted on.  I tighten the adjuster until I can just pull the handle down with putting some body weight into it, but not so much that I'm standing on it or straining the tool.  Depending on the cable and lug combination, the setting may be 2 sizes smaller with thin wall lugs.
Overall, this is what we use most of the time.  I found that this set in a drill vice makes a good bench crimper, when you need to do a batch of battery jumpers.

fcafcjdi.jpg
I used this one for many years, also a V crimper, but has different dies.  Crimp quality was not as good, as the dies tore into the lug some.  Also changing the dies took time, and we once lost one of the dies, and it took months to get a replacement.  Not adjustable for different lug and cable combos.

bfdddceg.jpg
The "UL" Hex type crimper that you will find at regular electrical supply houses.  Quite expensive, but I am not a fan.  The dies bend slightly under pressure and so the hex crimps are not aligned with each other.  The dies tear the lugs, leaving sharp edges that can tear heat shrink, and there is no adjustment available to account for different cable and lug combinations.  
We have  X flex from Cobra, MTW from Quick Cable, and some DLO from another supplier.  All are UL listed 4/0 and all somewhat different in diam. and how the strands crush.  I have had a connection failure with this tool, and cutting through a cross section of the lug was not as solid a crimp as the V type.  I removed this tool from our shop, to avoid mistakes.
I'm sure with regular Class B stranded THHN, and the heavy wall, color coded lugs, that this is a good tool, but for battery connections, it does not work as well with thin wall lugs.
Finally, I do not recommend the heavy wall, long barrel lugs on batteries.  The square lug end is just too big and thick, and can't bolt to battery terminals in some cases.  We have had to grind away a corner for instance to have the heavy wall lugs land on an battery Flag terminal.  
The heavy terminals some what negate the advantages of flex cable in the first place.
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
Licensed Mas

Re: [RE-wrenches] high efficiency modules in U.S.

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

marco,

We used to stock Panasonic. I first heard about this in February when I tried 
to reorder inventory. I was told by a distributor that Panasonic increased the 
minimum order. Every one I contacted had no intention of ordering them due to 
this new minimum. In contacting Panasonic back in Feb. they told me they were 
working it out with Sunwize. Now they no longer reply to phone or email 
messages.

Larry 

On Apr 25, 2014, at 9:26 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf ma...@pvthawaii.com wrote:


 
Regarding Panasonic Solar news, this is the first I’ve heard of this.  Anyone 
know why they’re no longer distributing in the U.S.?
 

marco
 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] high efficiency modules in U.S.

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hey Kirk, 

We have sold sanyo then Panasonic modules for over a decade. Not only were they 
highly efficient, they were the last truly high performance modules in the US. 
I have exhausted my search for them, only 3 left in stock. Panasonic will not 
return my phone calls or emails. 

There are dozens of China companies making small and expensive modules using 
SunPower cells but I doubt any are listed. I managed to buy some 327 and 435 
Watt Sunpower modules dirt cheap from a guy. These were cosmetically 
blemished laminates that someone framed. Isc tests show they are producing 
rated power or higher but the frame is light and the cell surface has blotches 
under the glass. No listing on these either but my off grid customers in Mexico 
love them for the performance and cheap price per Watt. 

Does anyone know which of the 60 cell manufacturers have the highest module 
efficiency?

Larry




On Apr 25, 2014, at 5:05 AM, Kirk Herander k...@vtsolar.com wrote:

Now that it appears Sanyo/Panasonic is no longer available, and Sunpower 
distribution is tightly controlled, what other high-efficiency alternatives are 
U.S.-available? Thanks.
 
Kirk Herander
VT Solar, LLC
Un-Common quality since 1991
www.vermontsolarnow.com
dba Vermont Solar Engineering
NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant
VT RE Incentive Program Partner
802.863.1202


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wrong title on my inquiry ... Charge Controller Question!

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Karl,

On their main page they claim charging ...with little or no electrolyte 
gassing. Gassing is a function of charge voltage. If you are charging deep 
cycle batteries properly, you will be gassing. After reading through the 
brochure, I'm not very impressed. Do yourself a favor and listen to what Ray 
said. Stick with proven, mainstream CC manufacturers. The fact that it is not 
an MPPT controller is a major drawback in any system over a few hundred Watts. 

Please share with us the operating and customization functions that you are 
looking for?

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems







On Apr 22, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Karl Jaeger kjae...@lightwavesolar.com wrote:

 
 
From: Karl Jaeger 
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 2:28 PM
To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: RE: Fault Current
 
Greetings Wrenches,
We’re considering a new charge controller for an upcoming project that offers a 
wide range of operation and customization. Has anyone had experience with this 
product? General specs and link below:
 
Sollatek - Solar Control Centre/ Solar Charge Controller
12/24/or 48V
10-100V Voltage Range
90-960A Max Charge Current
http://www.sollatek.com/product/solarcontrolcentre/
 
Thank you in advance!
Karl Jaeger
LightWave Solar
 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] EMP question

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Good answer Wayne…how strong AND how far away. I'm sure the inverse-square law 
apples here but if you don't know the initial power and distance, it does not 
matter much anyway. 

Now, for a hilarious interjection, there is a customer in our showroom at this 
moment asking about PV solar in case there is am EMP that takes out utility 
power! So funny.

Larry




On Apr 22, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Wayne wa...@pureenergysolar.com wrote:

We get that question all the time. 
We reply with the same question that we ask them with regard to hurricanes.

Well... how strong will it be? 

We have not found any good supported answer on line or otherwise.

However, the answer I like the most is You will either be completely fine or 
totally screwed! There is no in between. Oh and here is your aluminum foil 
helmet.. no charge.


Wayne Irwin,
President
License #CVC56695 
State Licensed Solar Contractor
Pure Energy Solar International Inc. 
wa...@pureenergysolar.com 
http://PureEnergySolar.com 
352 377-6527 Office
352 336-3299 Fax


The Sun Is Always Shining!

The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not 
the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or 
distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and 
delete this message from your computer system. Thank you.



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World shattered module

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi David,

We have thousands of PV modules installed mostly on RV's. An RV roof can be a 
very abusive environment with turbulence, flying debris, driving under limbs, 
heavy vibrations and more. I have not had any glass breakage that could not be 
accounted for, i.e, breaking for unknown reason. But, we have had hoodlums 
shooting at PV modules. Perhaps look at the back for a hole.

Larry








On Apr 21, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Dave Palumbo d...@independentpowerllc.com wrote:

Wrenches,
 
I have a customer with one SW 230 poly V2.0 frame (top mount) module that has 
shattered glass. It is on a DPW TPM10 pole mount. She noticed it the other day 
and does not think that it was hit by anything. I agree that is unlikely based 
on the site conditions.
 
Other than by a falling tree, thrown rock, or twisted frame – is there another 
way that glass shatters on a 65 degree tilted pole mount like this?  We 
installed the system 2 years ago. The module was on the lower corner of the 
array.
· Is it likely that this modules frame was being pressured by the 
module(s) above it? TPM has two rows of 5 modules in landscape, so this bottom 
module has 4 modules mounted above it. Again it is a top mounted DPW pole array.
· Or, is there another way that glass shatters on this type of module?
I have not visited the site yet, just received the phone call today.
 
David Palumbo
Independent Power LLC
462 Solar Way Drive
Hyde Park, VT 05655
(802) 888-7194
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with Fronius

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Mac,

I have a customer with 17kW on 3 Fronius inverters. He connected a cheap 40kW 
china diesel generator during a week long power outrage. I was amazed when he 
told me they sync'd up with no problems.

Larry

On Apr 16, 2014, at 1:44 PM, Mac Lewis maclew...@gmail.com wrote:

Hello wrenches,

Has anyone had good success AC coupling with Fronius Inverters?  If so, what 
equipment did you use?  Was this with an IG or an IG Plus?

I have had quite a few people lately with Fronius Inverters that would like a 
backup solution and I'm not comfortable AC coupling these, but could 
potentially be persuaded.

Thanks

Mac Lewis
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Zomeworks Cool Cell

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Sorry for reposting but perhaps my original post was missed. Has anyone used 
the Zomeworks Cool Cells?

http://www.zomeworks.com/battery-electronic-enclosures/cool-cell/

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Mar 28, 2014, at 3:14 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
la...@starlightsolar.com wrote:

Wrenches,

Have any of you used the Zomeworks Cool Cell battery enclosures? I would like 
to hear about their effectiveness, especially if you have used them in a very 
hot, dry climate.  What maintenance is required? Zomeworks says on their 
website that one location kept the battery/equipment 41° below ambient. 

The customers site is a remote desert location with ambients up to 118°. The 
only access is by helicopter so I want to compare the total cost verses 
replacing batteries more frequently. I have built a few remote power systems 
here in the desert with Hoffman boxes and added some shading on sides and tops 
(pic). I used Sun Xtenders in these and they are still performing after 7.  

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher


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[RE-wrenches] Midnite Solar Whizbang Jr.

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Has anyone successfully installed a Whizbang Jr. battery monitor for the 
Midnite Classic yet? I'm having strange trouble with a Classic after firmware 
updates and WB install and wonder if others have had trouble. 


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Temp, SOC, and Voltage

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Ray,

I have never considered the effect of battery voltage at low temperature under 
load, only capacity loss, so you got me thinking. Here's a simple idea: why not 
put a battery in a freezer with your expected load and monitor voltage, or 
better yet, chart to see where it lands. I would be doing this test right now 
but I don't have a freezer at the shop.

Larry

On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:26 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote:

Hi folks;

I have pondered LVD set points to protect batteries from freezing, and realized 
I don't have enough information.
While temp compensation is fairly straight forward when charging ( increase 
charge voltage when cold, reduce when hot, manufacturer's #s are close to 
charge controller assumptionsno problem)
However, it is not at all clear what the battery voltage is at low 
temperatures, when the battery is at rest or during discharge. I've actually 
found a chart that shows battery voltage at rest for a fully charged battery 
Decreases at cold temps.   (Look at voltage at bottom of chart)
cighdiif.jpg

 I know battery capacity is reduced, but the voltage actually goes down, while 
charge voltage goes up?  what happens during discharge? is the voltage higher 
or lower at low temps?
I know that it becomes complicated with discharge rate, so that higher 
discharge rates create artificially lower voltages, hence the wonderful LVD 
settings of the old Trace SW 4024, which had 3 different voltage set points for 
15 minutes, 2hrs, and 24 hrs periods.  However, were these set points 
temperature compensated? and if so, was it a negative or positive compensation?

Example:  I want to keep electrolyte specific gravity above 1.15 (roughly 40% 
SOC) as this has a freeze point of about 5 deg F.
So voltage for a lead acid battery at room temperature at 40% SOC is  about 12 
volts (open circuit, at rest)
Just looking at this chart, and applying the same voltage ratio to a battery at 
40% SOC,  I'm seeing a set point of 11.8 v for a battery at rest at 5 deg F.  
But this doesn't account for discharge rate, and I don't know whether to fudge 
voltage up or down based on discharge rate at low temps.
Basically I want set points that protect the battery, but aren't overly 
conservative.

Anyone have a temperature compensation chart (or coefficient) that applies to 
different Discharge rates?

-- 
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Zomeworks Cool Cell

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

….after 7 years.

Wrenches,

Have any of you used the Zomeworks Cool Cell battery enclosures? I would like 
to hear about their effectiveness, especially if you have used them in a very 
hot, dry climate.  What maintenance is required? Zomeworks says on their 
website that one location kept the battery/equipment 41° below ambient. 

The customers site is a remote desert location with ambients up to 118°. The 
only access is by helicopter so I want to compare the total cost verses 
replacing batteries more frequently. I have built a few remote power systems 
here in the desert with Hoffman boxes and added some shading on sides and tops 
(pic). I used Sun Xtenders in these and they are still performing after 7.  

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Arcing from inside Trace DR2412

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Benn,

Over the years I have seen several of the DR inverters burn up near the 
transfer switch, or perhaps the switch. I've never dug into the chars to 
determine what actually failed. I would replace that relic before the 
inevitable happens.  


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Mar 27, 2014, at 3:36 PM, Benn Kilburn b...@skyfireenergy.com wrote:


Wrenches,
An off-gridded (system installed by others) called me yesterday with a concern. 

His system is older and has had mods added over the years. It is up to 7x 
Siemens SP75 and 1x She'll SQ80P. 

I believe the inverter is the original. It is a Trace DR2412, and where the 
concern stems from. 
He says he has noticed an arc from inside the inverter about 3 of the last 8 
times he has fired up his generator (remote start next to inverter). He 
described seeing the arc thru the vent fins on the top right of the inverter. 

Is this internal arc typical when a generator connects to the inverter and he 
just hasn't noticed it before?

...or is his ol Trace toast?

Thanks,
benn
Sent from a 'smart' phone, with touch screen keys. Please excuse shortcuts and 
typos.
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[RE-wrenches] Uni-Solar, Kaneka…now Panasonic?

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Wrenches, 

What high performance PV modules are being sold in the US? I can't find 
Panasonic modules anymore. I have written to them twice but they can't direct 
me to any distribution in the US. They insist that Sunwize will have them but 
Sunwize says they have no plans yet to purchase again.

From what I can tell, the next best thing is Sunpower modules with -0.38% /K 
temp coefficient. Are there any others to consider?

Larry Crutcher






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Re: [RE-wrenches] Uni-Solar, Kaneka.now Panasonic?

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Dave and August,

I'm looking for high performance (capturing the most energy), not high 
necessarily high efficiency (using less space). Efficiency would be a bonus, 
though. LG are just average performance. Example: Uni-Solar was one of the 
lowest efficiency modules ever made but holds the record for highest 
performance.

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher






On Mar 14, 2014, at 8:52 AM, August Goers aug...@luminalt.com wrote:

Hi Larry,

LG is selling Neon panels which are pushing 300 W for a 60-cell
arrangement. My understanding is that they are sold out in the US but
sooner or later more will be imported. Focused Energy is a distributor of
them.

http://www.lg.com/us/commercial/solar-panels

SunPower is our workhorse high efficiency module. The new X series 335 and
345 are hard to beat.

Best,

August


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry
Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 8:34 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Uni-Solar, Kaneka.now Panasonic?

Wrenches,

What high performance PV modules are being sold in the US? I can't find
Panasonic modules anymore. I have written to them twice but they can't
direct me to any distribution in the US. They insist that Sunwize will
have them but Sunwize says they have no plans yet to purchase again.

From what I can tell, the next best thing is Sunpower modules with -0.38%
/K temp coefficient. Are there any others to consider?

Larry Crutcher






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Re: [RE-wrenches] Uni-Solar, Kaneka.now Panasonic?

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Thanks for your reply August. I'm quite surprised that you have two Uni-Solar systems not performing well. Third party testing consistently proved them the top performer. (eg. Santa Cruz and Tucson sites) With my experience both on and off grid, I am convinced. Panasonic was great because, in addition to performance, it also had very high efficiency. In my world of cramming 2kW+ PV arrays on the roof of an RV or boat, that is also a necessity. Example: Here's todays job; the last of my Panasonic stock, 1410 Watts on a 40' coach. No possible way to do this with standard 60 cell modules.Bottom line for me is, someone has abest and worst performing PV module just like someone has the most efficient. Glad to hear your SunPower installs areproducing above expectations. That's probably what I will go with.LarryOn Mar 14, 2014, at 9:50 AM, August Goers aug...@luminalt.com wrote:Hi Larry,It sounds like you are talking about the temperature coefficient or energyyield per kW-peak? Uni-Solar was great on paper but I'm not so sure aboutreal world performance. We have a couple of Uni-Solar systems installed awhile back and they are not doing so well in the real world. Companieskeep coming to me over the years claiming that their modules harvest morekWh per kW peak and it is really hard to keep everything straight.Certainly the PTC ratings help in comparison to STC. Then there are paperslike this from SunPower claiming 8 to 10% more energy per Watt:http://www.solarips.com/admin/content/uploads/SunPower_Yield_Report_BEW.pdfSunPower also claims that their modules degrade less annually compared toothers.And here's a doc comparing PV module performance measurements:http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build05/PDF/b05047.pdfEach year we try to compare the actual monitored performance of oursystems compared to our as-built production estimates at time of theinstallation completion. In general, I've found that both SunPower andother standard efficiency modules seem to outperform the normal PV-Wattscalculation by 7 to 10%. In 2012 our systems were averaging about 17%above our estimates! I haven't seen a huge difference between SunPower andstandard efficiency modules. Furthermore, I haven't seen the performancegains that microinverter manufacturers are claiming compared to stringinverters. I admit that our informal comparison is not perfectlyscientific because there are simply too many variables that we don'tcapture. My main concern is material and or workmanship degradation inmodules over the long haul. Only time will tell.Best,August___
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[RE-wrenches] Purchasing SunPower modules

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

It looks like SunPower will only sell direct to authorized dealers. Are there 
any SunPower distributors that can sell to non-authorized dealers?

Thank you,

Larry




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium ion

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Todd,

Lithium batteries offer many distinct benefits over lead acid. Life, weight, 
size, time to charge and more. For me, it is market specific. Our primary 
business is designing, installing and servicing large power systems in 
recreational vehicles. Hundreds of our customers only use the RV seasonally by 
coming to SW Arizona to escape winter. When they go home, they leave the RV in 
storage for 6 months, not healthful for batteries. Our other customers are off 
grid residents n Mexico (US and Canadians mostly). They, too, are seasonal and 
leave their homes for 6 months or more.

I regularly recycle over 30,000 pounds of batteries at our store and I'm only 
open for 6 months per year! Most customers that come in for batteries have 
damaged theirs in just a few years. The frequent culprit: deficit charging. A 
Lithium battery will not be harmed by under charging, they never need to reach 
100% SoC, or leaving for long periods partially charged. You can disconnect the 
battery at 60% SoC and leave it for a year and it will be ready to use again 
when you turn it back on. 

I am fully committed to offering LFMP batteries as a lead acid replacement for 
RV's and off grid homes.

Larry



On Feb 27, 2014, at 7:24 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:

not trying to be dumb here, but what's the attraction to lithium ion batteries?
 
todd
 
 
 
On Thursday, February 27, 2014 3:44pm, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power 
Systems la...@starlightsolar.com said:

 Jay,
 
 I'm an authorized dealer of GBS systems and we stock and sell them here in our
 retail store. I can build any voltage bank in 12 volt increments. All our 
 systems
 include EMS computer, cell level balancing, temperature and SoC monitoring 
 with
 over/under voltage protection. Basically a turn-key setup.
 
 We tested CALB for a while and tried to get other lithium brands in but the
 distribution market in the USA is a horrible mess when it comes to Lithium
 batteries. I got frustrated after trying to communicate with importers and 
 choose
 GBS because they had the best and most intelligent response to me. GBS 
 batteries
 are LiFeMgPO4 or LFMP which is safer, won't catch fire. When comparing life
 cycles, LFMP is lower cost than any lead acid batteries.
 
 If you're interested, I can configure a system for you and get you discount 
 cost
 for resale. Contact me off the board.
 
 Larry
 928-342-9103



Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium ion

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Ray,

I had a 100AH battery for about 3 weeks of testing. I worked it hard. I even 
over discharged it once. It worked perfectly at different charge and discharge 
rates. The most interesting thing was that the 100Ah battery regularly provided 
115AH at 95% DoD. 

I would sell the CALBS but, again, the US distribution is only through other 
dealers. There are several people importing them but they all teated me like 
the end user or consumer. For off grid use, the Lithium battery industry has a 
long way to go to make these mainstream. I hope to change that some. 

Larry

On Feb 27, 2014, at 7:43 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote:

Larry;

You mentioned  you tested CALB batteries; what was your experience with them?

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 2/27/2014 4:44 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
 Jay,
 
 I'm an authorized dealer of GBS systems and we stock and sell them here in 
 our retail store. I can build any voltage bank in 12 volt increments. All our 
 systems include EMS computer, cell level balancing, temperature and SoC 
 monitoring with over/under voltage protection. Basically a turn-key setup.
 
 We tested CALB for a while and tried to get other lithium brands in but the 
 distribution market in the USA is a horrible mess when it comes to Lithium 
 batteries. I got frustrated after trying to communicate with importers and 
 choose GBS because they had the best and most intelligent response to me. GBS 
 batteries are LiFeMgPO4 or LFMP which is safer, won't catch fire. When 
 comparing life cycles, LFMP is lower cost than any lead acid batteries.
 
 If you're interested, I can configure a system for you and get you discount 
 cost for resale. Contact me off the board.
 
 Larry
 928-342-9103

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Source for wire

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Perhaps this? 
http://www.waytekwire.com/products/1461/Marine-Wire-Cable/--of-Conductors=2

Larry

On Feb 28, 2014, at 5:54 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com 
wrote:

Wrenches,
Simple request, please: who carries 10/2 jacketed submersible cable, 
specifically to use with the Shurflo 9300 pump? 

Conventional pump suppliers don't carry it, as any pump with metal parts needs 
a third conductor for ground, and usually run 240V. The 9300 fits only 10/2 or 
12/2 wire without ground and with flat jacketing.  It must be flat-jacketed to 
seal to the cable gland.

Thank you,
Allan
-- 
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder, Positive Energy, Inc.
A Certified B CorporationTM
3209 Richards Lane
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell
www.positiveenergysolar.com
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium ion

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Jay,

I'm an authorized dealer of GBS systems and we stock and sell them here in our 
retail store. I can build any voltage bank in 12 volt increments. All our 
systems include EMS computer, cell level balancing, temperature and SoC 
monitoring with over/under voltage protection. Basically a turn-key setup.

We tested CALB for a while and tried to get other lithium brands in but the 
distribution market in the USA is a horrible mess when it comes to Lithium 
batteries. I got frustrated after trying to communicate with importers and 
choose GBS because they had the best and most intelligent response to me. GBS 
batteries are LiFeMgPO4 or LFMP which is safer, won't catch fire. When 
comparing life cycles, LFMP is lower cost than any lead acid batteries. 

If you're interested, I can configure a system for you and get you discount 
cost for resale. Contact me off the board.  

Larry
928-342-9103


On Feb 26, 2014, at 10:44 AM, Jay Peltz j...@asis.com wrote:

Does anyone know of a distributor of lithium ion for re systems
And recommended brands

Thanks

Jay

Jay @asis.com


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[RE-wrenches] Panasonic PV modules

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Desperate here….Does anyone know where I can still purchase Panasonic PV 
modules? Any quantity.

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
(928) 342-9103







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Re: [RE-wrenches] controllers

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Ron,

I agree and share the frustration. I've been asking Rick at Blues Sky Energy 
for a few years to build an IPN network controller that can handle 100 volts 
input and 60 amps out. With the IPN Pro, the BSE controllers are the very best 
in battery monitoring and terminating charge based on AH returned.  If 
Morningstar made their controllers less archaic to program, I would consider 
using them. 

I have not found anything agreeable that fits this gap in charge controllers. 
As you discovered, the 3024iL can only handle one 60 cell module, unless you 
can find some 200 Watt modules. The next step is to the Midnite Classic which 
is a 96 amp CC. We uses lots of 60 and 72 cell modules on 12 volt systems. We 
have installed quite a few Classics but many of the systems are only 600 - 800 
Watts. 

The problem I see for manufacturing is the price point. A 40 amp BSE controller 
is about $350 and the Midnite Classic is about $520 (online prices). A $170 
spread does not leave much room to built a 60 amp IPN network controller. But I 
WOULD buy them by the dozen, if only….

Larry


On Feb 20, 2014, at 3:49 PM, RM You solarea...@solareagle.com wrote:

Anybody have any recommendations for a 45a MPPT controller other than 
Morningstar? I’ve had absolutely miserable tech support from Morningstar so I 
want to drop the line but I need something that will handle 2 60 cell modules 
in the 250w range for off grid applications. I use a Blue Sky for single panels 
and a Midnite Classic for three or more but in the middle the only one I can 
see is the Morningstar. Outback, Midnite and Xantrex are all overkill for just 
a couple of panels unless they want to expand in the future. 

Ron



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Midnite solar Charge controllers

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Jerry,People do like to touch stuff. One of the benefits of the Midnite controllers is you can remove the MNPG after programming and the user can not alter any settings. Some customers need this type of interference. Here's a picture of a thermal runaway in an AGM battery after a customer, while playing with a charge controller program, turned the voltage up to 3 Vpc.Larry
On Feb 17, 2014, at 9:06 PM, Jerry Shafer jerrysgarag...@gmail.com wrote:Has anyone had an issue with Midnite solar Charge controllers loosing programming. I have had Out back FM 80 do this and it was an software issue they fixed it. Now I have the same thing with midnite either that or the customer is messing with it and this is also a good possibility but before I go there I want to confirm with you all out there. The issue from Outback is if the CC is powered down on both sides it will loose memory, I cant confirm this as the customer is away and I cant get on site but we have Nickle Iron batteries that require high charge voltage to charge at all and it seams to not maintain the charge voltage setting.  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Back feed from Radian.

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Ditto Tom, seen this too often in Mexico. I carry a manometer to make check the 
pressure at the LP input to the generator with the engine running. Make sure it 
is at/above 11 WC when it starts to act up. If the regulator is at the tank, 
long vapor runs can cause too much pressure loss.

Larry



On Feb 17, 2014, at 1:36 PM, Tom Duffy t...@thesolar.biz wrote:

Hi Guys
 
We have had “icing” problems here in Central America as well where the gas 
company put in ½’ pipe to a 12K Gillette Generator, same description the gen 
would initially start and run fine but then it went erratic the Radian didn’t 
like it, the customer wanted to blame the Radian (I was sure it wasn’t)
 
The installer/dealer couldn’t figure it out. I went out and immediately saw the 
small pipe, plus they had bent a crimp into the incoming fuel line as well. ¾” 
line fixed the whole thing. LP has a lot of moisture and will always have 
delivery problems with funky installation of pipe. Seems that a lot of gas guys 
just hook up kitchen ranges (Here)
 
Kind regards
 
Tom Duffy
Senior Solar Design Engineer
image002.png
E-Mail: t...@thesolar.biz
Panama Office: 507-6126-1253
Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772
International: 575-539-2111
SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz
Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of 
electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
 Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole 
use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged 
information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is 
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender 
and delete any copies of this message.
 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Solenoid Coil Current

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

...600 Watt HOURS per day….

It must be active 24/7. If deactivated, the battery is disconnected. Thanks but 
this is irrelevant now since I found a 500 amp solenoid that only consumes 41 
WH per day. 

Larry

On Feb 13, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Jerry Shafer jerrysgarag...@gmail.com wrote:

OK So if you only have the 600 watts per day when you are either on shore power 
or on a genny can you design the system to not be needed when they are off and 
kill that load
Jerry

On Feb 13, 2014 11:51 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
la...@starlightsolar.com wrote:
Hi Jerry,

The no-fault condition from the CPU is +12Vdc. A fault causes 0 volts. These 
are the contactors I plan to use: 
http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70062412

Larry

 

On Feb 13, 2014, at 12:38 PM, Jerry Shafer jerrysgarag...@gmail.com wrote:

So Ian clear does the fault activate the relay or does the absence of the fault 
activate the relay because its usually best to have a absent or no fault hold 
the relay on and if anything fails as a the relay will rest this can be done 
with motorized on or contactor high load switch, you should also look at the 
switch AIC rating also
Jerry___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Solenoid Coil Current

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Jerry,

The no-fault condition from the CPU is +12Vdc. A fault causes 0 volts. These 
are the contactors I plan to use: 
http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70062412

Larry

 

On Feb 13, 2014, at 12:38 PM, Jerry Shafer jerrysgarag...@gmail.com wrote:

So Ian clear does the fault activate the relay or does the absence of the fault 
activate the relay because its usually best to have a absent or no fault hold 
the relay on and if anything fails as a the relay will rest this can be done 
with motorized on or contactor high load switch, you should also look at the 
switch AIC rating also
Jerry

On Feb 11, 2014 4:43 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
la...@starlightsolar.com wrote:
Hello Wrenches,

We're preparing to offer Lithium batteries to some of our customers as a 
replacement to lead acid in recreational vehicles. RV batteries can have 
multiple charge sources simultaneously so I have worked out protective 
circuitry to interface with a EMS computer. To insure failsafe operation, I 
need to install 2 solenoids that will be active 24/7, opening only when fault 
conditions are met.

The solenoids I have looked at (200 amp) have a coil current of about 1 ampere 
each which equates to 600Wh daily consumption. I'de like to reduce that BUT the 
computer only provides a +12v or 0 volt state. 

Does anyone know of a latching solenoid that will work with a 12v hi/lo voltage 
state,
OR an interface or circuit for hi/lo to control latching relay
OR a solenoid with a very low quiescent current when on? 

Many thanks in advance, 

Larry Crutcher



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lead-selenium tubular plate batteries

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Allan,

FYI, their data sheet shows cycle life at 50% DoD is 1850 or 5 years. The 20 
year life is probably for standby use. I looked at these many years ago but I 
have not tried these because of price.

Larry

On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:27 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com 
wrote:

Has anyone tried these? This is my first awareness of them.
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/companies/sbs-battery/products/stt-opzs-series-flooded-tubular-batteries

Description: 
20 year Lead-Selenium Tubular Plate Batteries:
12V 55-165Ah, 6V 220-330Ah, 2V 110-3585Ah

Best to ask here first!
Thank you,
Allan
-- 
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder, Positive Energy, Inc.
A Certified B CorporationTM
3209 Richards Lane
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell
www.positiveenergysolar.com
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Solenoid Coil Current

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Pure genius, Dan. Exactly what I needed. You are truly an asset to the Wrench 
board.

Thanks Frank for the tip on the MOSFET. Good to hear from you.

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher




On Feb 11, 2014, at 6:16 PM, Exeltech exelt...@yahoo.com wrote:

Larry,

A latching relay isn't suitable for fail-safe applications.

Look into the Kilovac Czonka III EV200HAANA.  This series has a coil 
economizer that reduces coil current (and thus power consumption) after 
pull-in.  Rated coil power is less than 2 watts.  Models are good to 900Vdc and 
up to 500A.

Coil inrush current on one model I found is spec'd at 3.8 A for a 130 
milliseconds, so you'd need an external transistor to drive it from the 
computer.  If power consumption is a critical aspect, use a suitable MOSFET.  
If you don't mind wasting another watt or two, a bipolar NPN will also work.  
The coil current throttles back to less than 100 mA at 12Vdc after contact 
closure.  Because a specialized electronic power supply is driving the coil, 
Kilovac rates the DC input to the coil driver at anything from 9Vdc to 36Vdc.

Here's the Allied page: 
http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70062411

Not cheap .. but excellent quality.  If you're a registered reseller with 
Allied, the $ is less.


Dan


On Tue, 2/11/14, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
la...@starlightsolar.com wrote:

Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Solenoid Coil Current
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: Tuesday, February 11, 2014, 6:43 PM

Hello Wrenches,

We're preparing to offer Lithium batteries to some of our customers as a 
replacement to lead acid in recreational vehicles. RV batteries can have 
multiple charge sources simultaneously so I have worked out protective 
circuitry to interface with a EMS computer. To insure failsafe operation, I 
need to install 2 solenoids that will be active 24/7, opening only when fault 
conditions are met.

The solenoids I have looked at (200 amp) have a coil current of about 1 ampere 
each which equates to 600Wh daily consumption. I'de like to reduce that BUT the 
computer only provides a +12v or 0 volt state. 

 *  Does anyone know of a latching solenoid that will work with a 12v hi/lo 
voltage state,
 *  OR an interface or circuit for hi/lo to control latching relay
 *  OR a solenoid with a very low quiescent current when on? 

Many thanks in advance, 

Larry Crutcher


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Re: [RE-wrenches] morning star ts-mppt-60-600

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello William,

There is a hassle factor with the Morningstar MPPT controllers. If you need a 
custom charge setting, and I do most of the time, then you must download and 
install software, use a RS-232 data cable, and reprogram settings from a Windoz 
PC. That's SO 1980's!.

We don't sell many Morningstar controllers because many of our battery systems 
are Lifeline, Sun Xtender or FullRiver AGM batteries. None of the DIP switch 
settings are right for those batteries. Also, none are right, but close, for 
Trojan or Crown batteries which we also sell. Besides that, I left the world of 
Microsoft many moons ago and I also can't find my DB9 cables anywhere.

Larry 



On Feb 12, 2014, at 12:50 PM, will...@millersolar.com wrote:

Hello again:
 
Anyone have any experience with these charge controllers?  How about the meter?
 
Thanks so much for all of the help.
 
William Miller

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Re: [RE-wrenches] morning star ts-mppt-60-600

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

OK, so you need a PC, an internet connection, a router, download and install 
software, network PC to router, plug in CC, connect PC to the controller, then 
you can change parameters. Got it…..still say hassle.

There is no doubt the controllers are feature laden and most of their smaller 
controllers that we have sold have not failed. most. On a positive note, they 
are great about warranty.

Larry


On Feb 12, 2014, at 2:49 PM, James Jefferson Jarvis j...@aprsworld.com wrote:

The Morningstar TriStar MPPT 60 and the 600 volt 60 amp both have ethernet 
built in. Yes, you use their MSVIEW software, but no you don't need an RS-232 
cable.

The MSView software allows you to easily load previously developed settings and 
to easily save and print those settings.

After putting lots of Morningstar products at remote site, I found found them 
not to crash, glitch, reset, or do anything besides work. I've found the 
built-in communications (using industry standard Modbus) to be excellent and 
easy to manage. I've not found any other charge controller manufacturer that 
has unified software across their whole product line, a unified communications 
standard, and the level of built-in monitoring the Morningstar products have.

I'll take RS-232, RS-485, or Ethernet any day over proprietary stuff that 
doesn't work.

I don't have any vested interest in Morningstar. I've just spent a lot of time 
developing monitoring and control software to work with all manners of 
different equipment. And when I get my choice, I go with the Morningstar stuff 
because I know it works well.

-James Jarvis
APRS World, LLC
www.aprsworld.com


On 02/12/2014 03:31 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
 Hello William,
 
 There is a hassle factor with the Morningstar MPPT controllers. If you need a 
 custom charge setting, and I do most of the time, then you must download and 
 install software, use a RS-232 data cable, and reprogram settings from a 
 Windoz PC. That's SO 1980's!.
 
 We don't sell many Morningstar controllers because many of our battery 
 systems are Lifeline, Sun Xtender or FullRiver AGM batteries. None of the DIP 
 switch settings are right for those batteries. Also, none are right, but 
 close, for Trojan or Crown batteries which we also sell. Besides that, I left 
 the world of Microsoft many moons ago and I also can't find my DB9 cables 
 anywhere.
 
 Larry
 
 
 
 On Feb 12, 2014, at 12:50 PM, will...@millersolar.com 
 mailto:will...@millersolar.com wrote:
 
 Hello again:
 Anyone have any experience with these charge controllers?  How about the 
 meter?
 Thanks so much for all of the help.
 William Miller
 
 
 
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+1-507-454-2727
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[RE-wrenches] DC Solenoid Coil Current

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello Wrenches,

We're preparing to offer Lithium batteries to some of our customers as a 
replacement to lead acid in recreational vehicles. RV batteries can have 
multiple charge sources simultaneously so I have worked out protective 
circuitry to interface with a EMS computer. To insure failsafe operation, I 
need to install 2 solenoids that will be active 24/7, opening only when fault 
conditions are met.

The solenoids I have looked at (200 amp) have a coil current of about 1 ampere 
each which equates to 600Wh daily consumption. I'de like to reduce that BUT the 
computer only provides a +12v or 0 volt state. 

Does anyone know of a latching solenoid that will work with a 12v hi/lo voltage 
state,
OR an interface or circuit for hi/lo to control latching relay
OR a solenoid with a very low quiescent current when on? 

Many thanks in advance, 

Larry Crutcher





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Bruce,

Please explain feeding it properly. Charging any lead acid battery slowly 
actually preserves battery life. As long as you are achieving the recommended 
charge voltage (temperature compensated) for long enough time, and reaching 
100% SoC regularly, you are caring for the battery.

At 82kWh battery capacity and 6.5kW PV, the customer may have a hard time 
getting to 100%. You did not mention, but I HOPE you have a battery capacity 
meter in the system. It's mandatory if they want to care for the battery. Since 
the customer has a small generator, they need to realize the limitations and 
reduce their loads during generator time so you can use the full output.

Larry

On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:46 PM, br...@willpowerelect.com wrote:

Hi All,

3 VFX 3648
2 FM 80
6.5 kw solar
12 kw generator
PSX 240 on generator output and VFX stacking
Mate 3
HUP 1690 ah

System design considering 45 amp charge current from each VFX totaling 135 
amps. (135 x ~55v = 7.42kw)  Potential charge current from 2 arrays and FM 
80's, 90 - 100 amps. On a good day, reasonable to expect 200+ amps?
Have not been able to exceed 90 amps for more than 30 minutes, with the 
generator putting out about 9 kw before it's 70 amp 2pole breaker trips. L1 42 
amps, L2 37 amps. 5 amps neutral. Load banked to 12.3 kw (51 amps @ 240v) 
resistive without breaker trip.
I have had to dial back the maximum charge current in the Mate 3 to 12 amps 
each on two of the inverters (L1 and L2) and 8 on inverter 3 to keep the 
generator from tripping out when customer turns on the microwave or coffee pot. 
In effect, 42 amps charge @ 240 v = 7.6 kw. At the battery, I'm only seeing 80 
amps of charge current. Running loads are typically less than 1 kw but there 
has been a of construction going on with chop saws and compressors creating 
annoying spikes that are easily handled by the inverters when the generator is 
off.
I don't want to kill this new battery by not feeding it properly! I would have 
put in a larger generator, but the owner bought the 12 kw before deciding on 
the new battery. I thought the 12 would be merely adequate, but not so
Any suggestions?

Thanks!

Bruce Fiero-RMI

sigimg0.jpeg



I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope 
we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. T. 
Edison, 1931
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery venting issue

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Allan,

The primary concern should be the volume of gas discharge if over voltage 
occurs. This study helped me understand the risks: 
http://www.sonnenschein.org/Gassing.htm

Quote from the study: Gassing according to IEC 896/2-Oct 95 @ 2.3v / cell 
within 30 days was measured @ 5mL/cell/ah while Overcharging @ 2.48v/cell 
caused 900m L / cell / ah within 30 days!

Also heres a technical bulletin from CD that discusses how long a 2% 
concentration takes during overcharge. See document 41-6739: 
http://www.cdtechno.com/resource/support_doc.html


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
(928) 342-9103
www.starlightsolar.com
la...@starlightsolar.com

Retail Store  Warehouse
2998 Shari Ave.
Yuma, Az 85365

USPS Postal Mail Only
11881 S Fortuna Road, #210
Yuma, AZ 85367







On Feb 5, 2014, at 7:38 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com 
wrote:

Wrenches,
I need a bit of help here if you have it. Since 2002 we have installed 
somewhere between 30 and 35 systems with sealed batteries installed in 
manufactured enclosures, originally Outback enclosures and in recent years 
Midnite MNBE enclosures. At least ten of these have been indoors in one form or 
another - usually a laundry or mechanical room. Our battery of choice is 
Concorde SunXtender. We have only added mechanical ventilation (Zephyr 
Power-Vent to outside) if the battery enclosure itself is sealed. Nearly all of 
these have been permitted and inspected systems, and we have never had a 
problem with the inspectors. Of course, we always vent flooded systems to the 
outside, nearly always using a Power Vent fan.

Now we have. An AHJ failed a system for lack of ventilation, and our attempts 
to resolve it have not been effective. The Chief Electrical Inspector has 
weighed in, and we are right at the point of filing a Request for Code 
Interpretation with the New Mexico Electrical Division Technical Advisory 
Panel. 

I have not wanted to just add ventilation to pass inspection because of the 
precedent doing so is likely to set for future installations. The GC on the job 
supports my attempts to push back, as do the homeowners. The Chief Inspector 
thinks that the 700 square foot unheated room in which our system is installed 
is a bedroom; it's actually a storeroom for the homeowners' collectible book 
home business.

My request: please send me documented work by others establishing that PV 
systems with sealed VRLA batteries are used specifically because they are 
considered safe without venting to the outside. If you know of good online 
links, I could use them too. For example, the AHJ asked for a document stating 
that the batteries or the enclosure were specifically approved for this use in 
an indoor location. I can't - Midnite battery enclosures are simply listed to 
UL508A, which is industrial control panels and there's nothing specific to 
this application in the standard.

To me this is a common-sense issue, but common sense doesn't cut it when 
needing to prove a procedure. Can anyone help?

For what it's worth, or for those Wrenches with too much spare time, below is 
the text of the original defense of our installation that I sent to the AHJ. 
His response was that he's not an electrical engineer and this would have to be 
taken upstairs. For what it's worth, I'm not an EE either... My frustration is 
showing, I'm sure.

Thank you for any links, reports or other resources you may be able to send my 
way.
Allan


 Original Message 

Mr. [AHJ],
I have done some research as followup to our discussion last week about battery 
venting for the [X] job. Here are several perspectives on the issue:

The NEC Section 480.9(A) states only that Provisions shall be made for 
sufficient diffusion and ventilation of the gases from the battery to prevent 
the accumulation of an explosive mixture. At root, you are questioning whether 
ventilation of the batteries into the storeroom at the [X] home is sufficient 
under worst-case conditions.

The NEC Handbook entries for Section 480.9(A), which are considered as 
explanatory support documentation and are not Code requirements, include two 
paragraphs that are fundamentally contradictory to each other. The two read: 
The intent of 480.9(A) is not to mandate mechanical ventilation. Hydrogen 
disperses rapidly and requires little air movement to prevent accumulation. 
Unrestricted natural air movement in the vicinity of the battery, together with 
normal air changes for occupied spaces or heat removal, normally is sufficient. 
If the space is confined, mechanical ventilation may be required in the 
vicinity of the battery.
This paragraph refers to batteries in general, including flooded batteries 
which release hydrogen gas as a normal part of the charging process. The 
Handbook section goes on to specifically identify sealed batteries as being 
unlikely to release explosive gases:
Although valve-regulated batteries are often referred to as sealed, they 
actually emit very small quantities

Re: [RE-wrenches] 72-cell modules

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Does anyone know where to still purchase Panasonic modules since Sunwize no 
longer carries them?

Larry

On Feb 3, 2014, at 2:28 PM, Kirk Herander k...@vtsolar.com wrote:

Panasonics are longer available through Sunwize. That’s what my rep just told 
me. They had trouble selling them due to the higher cost.
 
Kirk Herander
VT Solar, LLC
dba Vermont Solar Engineering
NABCEPTM Certified Inaugural Certificant
NYSERDA-eligible Installer
VT RE Incentive Program Partner
802.863.1202
 
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tump
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2014 11:43 AM
To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 72-cell modules
 
contact me of list for contact at sunwize if you need to but thats where I got 
my replacements last month,
On Feb 3, 2014, at 10:51 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote:


Does anyone have a source for Panasonic modules, in other than pallet quantity?

Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder, Positive Energy, Inc.
A Certified B CorporationTM
3209 Richards Lane
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell
www.positiveenergysolar.com
On 2/3/2014 4:28 AM, Tump wrote:
The Sanyo/panasonic are a bit smaller, just need to reduce rail width  drill 
holes but thats what I am doing.
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t...@swnl.net   www.SWNL.net
Solarwinds Northernlights   
   Serving Mid Coast Maine  Northern California
 207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401
  
  Blair TUMP May
     MAINE'S CHARTER 
  NABCEPCertified PV Installer 
   
    MAINE'S CHARTER 
  Trace Xantrex Certified Dealer / Installer
 
 
 
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