Re: [bug #9259] Reduced spectral density mapping yielding bad values

2007-06-19 Thread Edward d'Auvergne
Hi,

I have thoroughly checked all the units of the physical constants,
spectral densities, rotational correlation times, and relaxation rates
and have a few important corrections about the units which are used in
relax and elsewhere.  Please read below for the details and a long
story about SI vs. CGS units, frequency vs. angular frequency, and how
it all relates to angular momentum.


On 6/15/07, Sebastien Morin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi,

 Here are the different values I obtain for a residue with R1 = 1.1336 +-
 0.0851 ; R2 = 12.9336 +- 0.9649 ; and NOE = 0.463921 +- 0.045


 J(0)  J(wN)J(wH)
 = ==

 Here are the results with Leo Spyracopoulos's Mathematica notebook.

 4.704231413115747e-9  2.664085520910741e-109.48428699657e-12


 Here are the results with relax without multiplying frequencies in Hz by
 2 pi.

 4.6978912534878238e-092.6603551824374712e-10
 9.478993207668287e-12

 ratio
 0.9986522432526923179 0.9985997677461966745
 0.9993081880043085706


 Here are the results with relax when multiplying frequencies in Hz by 2 pi.

 3.4634030539343071e-091.9612804482358541e-10
 9.478993207668287e-12

 ratio
 0.7362314371436068543 0.7361927508863804185
 0.9993081880043085706


 The very small discrepancy we get (ratio 0.999...) is due to several
 small differences in the definitions of constants (e.g. gn = -2.7126 in
 relax and -2.7108 in Leo's notebook). This is not important. However,
 there is a non negligible difference with the use of either frequencies
 in Hz or frequencies transformed to rad/s.

 Now, what do we do with that ?

 The spectral densities are in units of rad / s = rad s^-1. (these are
 not SI units, however)

The units of radians per second, or radian Hertz, is the angular
frequency (omega) rather than the frequency (nu), yet both are
nevertheless SI units.  For example see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_frequency or related sites.
These SI units are the same in the CGS unit system.  The reason that
we use the angular frequency rather than frequency is because we are
talking about angular momentum.


 The rates (R1, R2 and sigmaNOE) are in units of s^-1.

 The constant 'd' is in units of s^-2.

This is not correct.  The correct units are rad^2.s^-2.  This can be
found by doing a unit analysis on the SI dipolar constant with the
mu0/4pi component (or alternatively doing the analysis in the CGS
system).  The reason for the radians being part of the equation is
because we are using Dirac's constant (h_bar) rather than Planck's
constant (h).  While Planck's constant has the units of Joules per
Hertz (or Joule seconds) because Dirac's constant is divided by 2pi
its units are Joules per Hertz per radian.  However in most cases the
radian units of Dirac's constant are not stated as we are usually
talking about angular momentum (the angular part means we use radians
hence it is indirectly implied).  The other reason is because the
gyromagnetic ratio also has units of radian, and again this is usually
not reported (for example see Table 1.1 of Cavanagh in which the
gyromagnetic ratios are in fact in rad.s^-1.T^-1, although they are
not reported as such).  All of this is still in SI units - the radian
components are independent of the SI or CGS systems.

The relevant units in the SI system for the dipolar constant, defined as

d = (mu0/4pi)^2 . (gH.gX.h_bar/r^3)^2,

are

mu0 - kg.m.s^-2.A^-2,
h_bar - J.s.rad^-1,
gx - rad.s^-1.T^-1,
r - m,

where tesla (T) is equal to the units kg.A^-1.s^-2.

The SI units for the CSA constant, defined as

c = (omegaX . csa / 3)^2,

are

omegaX - rad.s^-1,
csa - unitless.

Hence both constants have the units of rad^2.s^-2.


 The constant 'c' is in units of s^-2 also (or rad^2 s^-2 if we use
 frequencies in rad s^-1, which are not SI units).

The constant c is defined by the angular frequency (omega) rather than
the frequency (nu).  Hence the units of this constant in the
relaxation equations, in both SI and CGS units, is always rad^2.s^-2
as well.


 I now hesitate between 3 views.

 1. Should the spectral densities be in SI units (i.e. in s, as the
 frequencies are in s^-1 and the rates in s^-1) ?

relax currently reports the spectral densities in the SI units for
angular frequency of radian Hertz.   Although often reported as Hertz,
the correct unit is radian Hertz.  This is again because radians are
implied, but this time because we are talking about rotations.  The
reason is as follows:

The spectral density function for isotropic diffusion is

J(w) = tm / (1 + (w.tm)^2).

The units for w (or omega) is rad.s^-1.  Because the product w.tm is
unitless the units for tm are in reality s.rad^-1.  Hence the units of
the spectral density function J(w) is also s.rad^-1.

Although not reported in text books such as Cavanagh, you can still
see remnants of the radians.  For example in that 

Re: [bug #9259] Reduced spectral density mapping yielding bad values

2007-06-19 Thread Sebastien Morin
Hi,

I'll do the patch right away.

Sorry for the attachment, I'll put a link next time...

Cheers


Séb


Edward d'Auvergne wrote:
 Hi,

 In this IUPAC report, on page 11, the radian unit is described as The
 units radian (rad) and steradian (sr), for plane angle and solid angle
 respectively, are described as 'SI supplementary units' [3]. Since
 they are of dimension 1 (i.e. dimensionless), they may be included if
 appropriate, or they may be omitted if clarity is not lost thereby, in
 expressions for derived SI units.  This is the part meaning that
 radians are implied if you are doing anything angular.  I don't know
 what they mean by clarity because by omitting them it complicates
 things.  Maybe you have to be a physicist before you can see this
 clarity.

 Séb, would you be able to create a single patch that contains your bug
 fixes, the changes to the system tests for the reduced spectral
 density mapping, and with the multiplication by 2pi added back (the
 first patch removed it), that would be very much appreciated.  I can
 then apply a single patch with a single commit message saying that bug
 #9259 (http://gna.org/bugs/?9259) has been fixed (by you of course).

 Thanks,

 Edward


 P. S.  As a side note, could you provide a link rather than attach a
 file to a post to a mailing list.  Thanks.  Because this mailing list
 is archived in many different internet repositories and because the
 message is sent out to all those subscribed to this list, the system
 is not designed to handle large attachments.



 On 6/19/07, Sebastien Morin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi,

 I agree quite well with what you say.

 However, I would have thought that, even if radians are often implied
 and not discussed, they should be present in the IUPAC reports (see
 attached file). See, for example, that the Planck constant divided by 2
 pi has units of J s, and that the magnetogyric ratio has also units
 devoid of radians (s^-1 T^-1), and even the Larmor angular frequency has
 units of s^-1 (without radians). Maybe even the IUPAC treats the radians
 as implied and doesn't bother with them...

 I just checked with data from the Lefevre paper (1996) and I can
 approximately reproduce their data (approximately, since I don't know
 the exact values and precisions they used for the different constants)
 when I multiply the frequencies by 2 pi... However, the discrepancy
 between spectral densities calculated with frequencies multiplied or not
 by 2 pi is small... so this verification is not really that precise...
 Here are the values :

 Res   R1R2 NOE J(0)  J(wN)  J(wH)   My values...  J(0)
 J(wN)  J(wH)

 4 1.8   4.92   0.162   1.23  0.32   0.027-1.50  0.40
   0.024
  x 2 pi   1.24
 0.33   0.024   - Best

 142.08  11.16  0.757   3.15  0.42   0.009-3.86
 0.51   0.008
  x 2 pi   3.18
 0.42   0.008   - Best


 It seems that Ed is right and that radians are part of the units and
 that the frequencies in Hz should be multiplied by 2 pi (as in the
 Lefevre paper).

 Cheers


 Séb




 Edward d'Auvergne wrote:
  Hi,
 
  I have thoroughly checked all the units of the physical constants,
  spectral densities, rotational correlation times, and relaxation rates
  and have a few important corrections about the units which are used in
  relax and elsewhere.  Please read below for the details and a long
  story about SI vs. CGS units, frequency vs. angular frequency, and how
  it all relates to angular momentum.
 
 
  On 6/15/07, Sebastien Morin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hi,
 
  Here are the different values I obtain for a residue with R1 =
 1.1336 +-
  0.0851 ; R2 = 12.9336 +- 0.9649 ; and NOE = 0.463921 +- 0.045
 
 
  J(0)  J(wN)J(wH)
  = =
  =
 
  Here are the results with Leo Spyracopoulos's Mathematica notebook.
 
  4.704231413115747e-9  2.664085520910741e-10
  9.48428699657e-12
 
 
  Here are the results with relax without multiplying frequencies in
 Hz by
  2 pi.
 
  4.6978912534878238e-092.6603551824374712e-10
  9.478993207668287e-12
 
  ratio
  0.9986522432526923179 0.9985997677461966745
  0.9993081880043085706
 
 
  Here are the results with relax when multiplying frequencies in Hz by
  2 pi.
 
  3.4634030539343071e-091.9612804482358541e-10
  9.478993207668287e-12
 
  ratio
  0.7362314371436068543 0.7361927508863804185
  0.9993081880043085706
 
 
  The very small discrepancy we get (ratio 0.999...) is due to several
  small differences in the definitions of constants (e.g. gn =
 -2.7126 in
  relax and -2.7108 in Leo's notebook). This is not important. However,
  there is a non negligible difference with the use of either
 frequencies
  in Hz or frequencies transformed to rad/s.
 
  Now, what do we do with that 

Re: [bug #9259] Reduced spectral density mapping yielding bad values

2007-06-15 Thread Edward d'Auvergne
Hi,

That is awesome work tracking down this problem.  Thank you!  I'll
apply your patch and then hopefully make a new relax 1.2 release with
your fixes very soon.  I do have a important question first though.

My question relates to the multiplication of the frequency by 2pi to
convert from Hz to rad/s units.  The symbol for the frequency in Hz is
nu whereas the frequency in rad/s is omega.  In all the relaxation
equations composed of spectral density components, the frequencies are
in rad/s and are represented by the omega symbol.  This includes the
CSA constant defined in SI units as

   c = (omegaX.CSA)^2/3,

where CSA is the chemical shift anisotropy and

   omegaX = gammaX.B0.

To get nuX which is the frequency of the X nucleus in Hz, omegaX
measured in rad/s should be divided by 2pi.  So my question is, do you
get the same results as the Mathematica notebooks of Leo Spyracopoulos
if you retain the multiplication of the frequency by 2pi?

Thanks,

Edward


P.S.  The problem with the list of frequencies is probably the major
issue.  I'm not sure why I attempted to fill out the entire list of
frequencies as the reduced spectral density mapping code only uses the
value in self.data.frq_list[0, 1], the frequency of the heteronucleus,
to calculate the CSA constant.  The higher frequencies are never used
in the calculation.  Anyway, your patch fixes this problem.




On 6/13/07, Sebastien Morin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi !

 I've checked the equations used for reduced spectral density mapping in
 relax. They're all right... The assumption about the factor of (mu0 /
 (4pi))^2 is ok since the old equations were written in Gaussian units
 (cgs) and now we use SI units.

 However, 2 things seem to be wrong.


 1.

 The frequencies need not to be scaled by a factor of 2 pi since the unit
 of frequency in the SI is Hz. Thus, line 52 of 'maths_fns/jw_mapping.py'
 must be removed.


 2.

 The frequency used for calculating the CSA seems not to be the
 heteronuclear frequency. In fact, there is an error in lines 57 to 60
 from 'maths_fns/jw_mapping.py' since the same item in the list is
 assigned different values one after the other. Changing those lines from :

 self.data.frq_list[0, 1] = frqX
 self.data.frq_list[0, 1] = frq - frqX
 self.data.frq_list[0, 1] = frq
 self.data.frq_list[0, 1] = frq + frqX

 to :

 self.data.frq_list[0, 1] = frqX
 self.data.frq_list[0, 2] = frq - frqX
 self.data.frq_list[0, 3] = frq
 self.data.frq_list[0, 4] = frq + frqX

 should work. The important thing is that item 1 stays the heteronuclear
 frequency so it matches with line 1020 of 'maths_fns/ri_comps.py' :

  data.csa_const_fixed[j] = data.frq_sqrd_list[j, 1] / 3.0

 where the constant 'c' is calculated using the squared heteronuclear
 frequency.


 With those two modifications, I now get the same values as when
 calculating manually or using Leo Spyracopoulos's Mathematica notebooks
 (http://www.bionmr.ualberta.ca/~lspy/index_7.html).

 Bye !


 Sébastien  :)





 Edward d'Auvergne wrote:
  Hi,
 
  For the reduced spectral density mapping in relax, I have used
  equations 10 to 12 from:
 
  Markus M. A., Dayie K. T., Matsudaira P., and Wagner G.  Local
  mobility within villin 14T probed via heteronuclear relaxation
  measurements and a reduced spectral density mapping.  Biochemistry.
  1996, 35(6):1722-32.
 
  The equations themselves are derived from:
 
  Lefevre J. F., Dayie K. T., Peng J. W., and Wagner G.  Internal
  mobility in the partially folded DNA binding and dimerization domains
  of GAL4: NMR analysis of the N-H spectral density functions.
  Biochemistry. 1996, 35(8):2674-86.
 
  One problem may be that I made the assumption that the dipolar
  constant of equation 7 of the first reference was missing the factor
  of (mu0 / (4pi))^2!  I based this assumption on the SI units
  formulation of the R1, R2, and NOE equations and how the CSA constant
  is defined.  I think this is a fairly safe assumption though if you
  look at equations 1, 2, and 8 of that paper.
 
  Could the problem be the definition of the equations used?  I've
  looked at the code in relax and it seems to replicate these equations
  correctly.  Are the equations of Markus et al., (1996) correct?  Is my
  assumption about the dipolar constant correct?  If you manually
  calculate the reduced spectral density values using these alternative
  equations, does relax produce the same values?  I'm sorry that I can't
  exactly pinpoint the problem, but something is seriously amiss.
 
  Regards,
 
  Edward
 
 
 
 
  On 6/1/07, anonymous [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  URL:
http://gna.org/bugs/?9259
 
   Summary: Reduced spectral density mapping yielding bad
  values
   Project: relax
  Submitted by: None
  Submitted on: Friday 06/01/2007 at 17:15 CEST
  Category: relax's source code
  Severity: 4 - 

Re: [bug #9259] Reduced spectral density mapping yielding bad values

2007-06-15 Thread Sebastien Morin
Hi,

I made a patch for the test-suite so the spectral density test passes
(patch_2007-06-15)...

This patch should go with the one for solving the bug that I uploaded
yesterday.

Cheers


Sébastien

P.S. I have a question about the test-suite. Should the test-suite files
be modified when a patch is sent as an answer to a bug report ? The
patch from yesterday made the test-suite fail, I believe it is thus fine
to also make a patch for the test-suite. Do you prefer making 2
different patches or a single one with everything in it (as the output
from svn diff) ?





Edward d'Auvergne wrote:
 Hi,

 That is awesome work tracking down this problem.  Thank you!  I'll
 apply your patch and then hopefully make a new relax 1.2 release with
 your fixes very soon.  I do have a important question first though.

 My question relates to the multiplication of the frequency by 2pi to
 convert from Hz to rad/s units.  The symbol for the frequency in Hz is
 nu whereas the frequency in rad/s is omega.  In all the relaxation
 equations composed of spectral density components, the frequencies are
 in rad/s and are represented by the omega symbol.  This includes the
 CSA constant defined in SI units as

   c = (omegaX.CSA)^2/3,

 where CSA is the chemical shift anisotropy and

   omegaX = gammaX.B0.

 To get nuX which is the frequency of the X nucleus in Hz, omegaX
 measured in rad/s should be divided by 2pi.  So my question is, do you
 get the same results as the Mathematica notebooks of Leo Spyracopoulos
 if you retain the multiplication of the frequency by 2pi?

 Thanks,

 Edward


 P.S.  The problem with the list of frequencies is probably the major
 issue.  I'm not sure why I attempted to fill out the entire list of
 frequencies as the reduced spectral density mapping code only uses the
 value in self.data.frq_list[0, 1], the frequency of the heteronucleus,
 to calculate the CSA constant.  The higher frequencies are never used
 in the calculation.  Anyway, your patch fixes this problem.




 On 6/13/07, Sebastien Morin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi !

 I've checked the equations used for reduced spectral density mapping in
 relax. They're all right... The assumption about the factor of (mu0 /
 (4pi))^2 is ok since the old equations were written in Gaussian units
 (cgs) and now we use SI units.

 However, 2 things seem to be wrong.


 1.

 The frequencies need not to be scaled by a factor of 2 pi since the unit
 of frequency in the SI is Hz. Thus, line 52 of 'maths_fns/jw_mapping.py'
 must be removed.


 2.

 The frequency used for calculating the CSA seems not to be the
 heteronuclear frequency. In fact, there is an error in lines 57 to 60
 from 'maths_fns/jw_mapping.py' since the same item in the list is
 assigned different values one after the other. Changing those lines
 from :

 self.data.frq_list[0, 1] = frqX
 self.data.frq_list[0, 1] = frq - frqX
 self.data.frq_list[0, 1] = frq
 self.data.frq_list[0, 1] = frq + frqX

 to :

 self.data.frq_list[0, 1] = frqX
 self.data.frq_list[0, 2] = frq - frqX
 self.data.frq_list[0, 3] = frq
 self.data.frq_list[0, 4] = frq + frqX

 should work. The important thing is that item 1 stays the heteronuclear
 frequency so it matches with line 1020 of 'maths_fns/ri_comps.py' :

  data.csa_const_fixed[j] = data.frq_sqrd_list[j, 1] / 3.0

 where the constant 'c' is calculated using the squared heteronuclear
 frequency.


 With those two modifications, I now get the same values as when
 calculating manually or using Leo Spyracopoulos's Mathematica notebooks
 (http://www.bionmr.ualberta.ca/~lspy/index_7.html).

 Bye !


 Sébastien  :)





 Edward d'Auvergne wrote:
  Hi,
 
  For the reduced spectral density mapping in relax, I have used
  equations 10 to 12 from:
 
  Markus M. A., Dayie K. T., Matsudaira P., and Wagner G.  Local
  mobility within villin 14T probed via heteronuclear relaxation
  measurements and a reduced spectral density mapping.  Biochemistry.
  1996, 35(6):1722-32.
 
  The equations themselves are derived from:
 
  Lefevre J. F., Dayie K. T., Peng J. W., and Wagner G.  Internal
  mobility in the partially folded DNA binding and dimerization domains
  of GAL4: NMR analysis of the N-H spectral density functions.
  Biochemistry. 1996, 35(8):2674-86.
 
  One problem may be that I made the assumption that the dipolar
  constant of equation 7 of the first reference was missing the factor
  of (mu0 / (4pi))^2!  I based this assumption on the SI units
  formulation of the R1, R2, and NOE equations and how the CSA constant
  is defined.  I think this is a fairly safe assumption though if you
  look at equations 1, 2, and 8 of that paper.
 
  Could the problem be the definition of the equations used?  I've
  looked at the code in relax and it seems to replicate these equations
  correctly.  Are the equations of Markus et al., (1996) correct?  Is my
  assumption about the dipolar constant correct?  If you manually
 

Re: [bug #9259] Reduced spectral density mapping yielding bad values

2007-06-13 Thread Sebastien Morin
Hi !

I've checked the equations used for reduced spectral density mapping in
relax. They're all right... The assumption about the factor of (mu0 /
(4pi))^2 is ok since the old equations were written in Gaussian units
(cgs) and now we use SI units.

However, 2 things seem to be wrong.


1.

The frequencies need not to be scaled by a factor of 2 pi since the unit
of frequency in the SI is Hz. Thus, line 52 of 'maths_fns/jw_mapping.py'
must be removed.


2.

The frequency used for calculating the CSA seems not to be the
heteronuclear frequency. In fact, there is an error in lines 57 to 60
from 'maths_fns/jw_mapping.py' since the same item in the list is
assigned different values one after the other. Changing those lines from :

self.data.frq_list[0, 1] = frqX
self.data.frq_list[0, 1] = frq - frqX
self.data.frq_list[0, 1] = frq
self.data.frq_list[0, 1] = frq + frqX

to :

self.data.frq_list[0, 1] = frqX
self.data.frq_list[0, 2] = frq - frqX
self.data.frq_list[0, 3] = frq
self.data.frq_list[0, 4] = frq + frqX

should work. The important thing is that item 1 stays the heteronuclear
frequency so it matches with line 1020 of 'maths_fns/ri_comps.py' :

 data.csa_const_fixed[j] = data.frq_sqrd_list[j, 1] / 3.0

where the constant 'c' is calculated using the squared heteronuclear
frequency.


With those two modifications, I now get the same values as when
calculating manually or using Leo Spyracopoulos's Mathematica notebooks
(http://www.bionmr.ualberta.ca/~lspy/index_7.html).

Bye !


Sébastien  :)





Edward d'Auvergne wrote:
 Hi,

 For the reduced spectral density mapping in relax, I have used
 equations 10 to 12 from:

 Markus M. A., Dayie K. T., Matsudaira P., and Wagner G.  Local
 mobility within villin 14T probed via heteronuclear relaxation
 measurements and a reduced spectral density mapping.  Biochemistry.
 1996, 35(6):1722-32.

 The equations themselves are derived from:

 Lefevre J. F., Dayie K. T., Peng J. W., and Wagner G.  Internal
 mobility in the partially folded DNA binding and dimerization domains
 of GAL4: NMR analysis of the N-H spectral density functions.
 Biochemistry. 1996, 35(8):2674-86.

 One problem may be that I made the assumption that the dipolar
 constant of equation 7 of the first reference was missing the factor
 of (mu0 / (4pi))^2!  I based this assumption on the SI units
 formulation of the R1, R2, and NOE equations and how the CSA constant
 is defined.  I think this is a fairly safe assumption though if you
 look at equations 1, 2, and 8 of that paper.

 Could the problem be the definition of the equations used?  I've
 looked at the code in relax and it seems to replicate these equations
 correctly.  Are the equations of Markus et al., (1996) correct?  Is my
 assumption about the dipolar constant correct?  If you manually
 calculate the reduced spectral density values using these alternative
 equations, does relax produce the same values?  I'm sorry that I can't
 exactly pinpoint the problem, but something is seriously amiss.

 Regards,

 Edward




 On 6/1/07, anonymous [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 URL:
   http://gna.org/bugs/?9259

  Summary: Reduced spectral density mapping yielding bad
 values
  Project: relax
 Submitted by: None
 Submitted on: Friday 06/01/2007 at 17:15 CEST
 Category: relax's source code
 Severity: 4 - Important
 Priority: 5 - Normal
   Status: None
  Privacy: Public
  Assigned to: None
  Originator Name: Sébastien Morin
 Originator Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Open/Closed: Open
  Discussion Lock: Any
  Release: Repository: 1.2 line
 Operating System: GNU/Linux

 ___

 Details:

 Hi

 I performed spectral density mapping on data recorded at three magnetic
 fields (500, 600, 800).

 The values I get are erroneous (when compared with Leo Spyracopoulos'
 Mathematica notebook which were manually verified using equations
 from the
 method 1 of Farrow et al., 1995, JBNMR, 6 : 153) and scaled depending
 on the
 magnetic field as shown in the table below (for which values
 calculated using
 either Leo's notebook or relax are divided by the value calculated
 manually).

 FieldMethodJ(0)  J(wN) J(wH)
 ====   ======
 500  Farrow1 (ref)   1 (ref)   1 (ref)
  Leo   1 1 1
  relax 0.04758   0.04757   0.999

 600  Farrow1 (ref)   1 (ref)   1 (ref)
  Leo   1 1 1
  relax 0.03361   0.03361   0.999

 800  Farrow1 (ref)   1 (ref)   1
  Leo   1 1 1
  relax 0.01932   0.01932 

Re: [bug #9259] Reduced spectral density mapping yielding bad values

2007-06-01 Thread Edward d'Auvergne
Hi,

For the reduced spectral density mapping in relax, I have used
equations 10 to 12 from:

Markus M. A., Dayie K. T., Matsudaira P., and Wagner G.  Local
mobility within villin 14T probed via heteronuclear relaxation
measurements and a reduced spectral density mapping.  Biochemistry.
1996, 35(6):1722-32.

The equations themselves are derived from:

Lefevre J. F., Dayie K. T., Peng J. W., and Wagner G.  Internal
mobility in the partially folded DNA binding and dimerization domains
of GAL4: NMR analysis of the N-H spectral density functions.
Biochemistry. 1996, 35(8):2674-86.

One problem may be that I made the assumption that the dipolar
constant of equation 7 of the first reference was missing the factor
of (mu0 / (4pi))^2!  I based this assumption on the SI units
formulation of the R1, R2, and NOE equations and how the CSA constant
is defined.  I think this is a fairly safe assumption though if you
look at equations 1, 2, and 8 of that paper.

Could the problem be the definition of the equations used?  I've
looked at the code in relax and it seems to replicate these equations
correctly.  Are the equations of Markus et al., (1996) correct?  Is my
assumption about the dipolar constant correct?  If you manually
calculate the reduced spectral density values using these alternative
equations, does relax produce the same values?  I'm sorry that I can't
exactly pinpoint the problem, but something is seriously amiss.

Regards,

Edward




On 6/1/07, anonymous [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 URL:
   http://gna.org/bugs/?9259

  Summary: Reduced spectral density mapping yielding bad
 values
  Project: relax
 Submitted by: None
 Submitted on: Friday 06/01/2007 at 17:15 CEST
 Category: relax's source code
 Severity: 4 - Important
 Priority: 5 - Normal
   Status: None
  Privacy: Public
  Assigned to: None
  Originator Name: Sébastien Morin
 Originator Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Open/Closed: Open
  Discussion Lock: Any
  Release: Repository: 1.2 line
 Operating System: GNU/Linux

 ___

 Details:

 Hi

 I performed spectral density mapping on data recorded at three magnetic
 fields (500, 600, 800).

 The values I get are erroneous (when compared with Leo Spyracopoulos'
 Mathematica notebook which were manually verified using equations from the
 method 1 of Farrow et al., 1995, JBNMR, 6 : 153) and scaled depending on the
 magnetic field as shown in the table below (for which values calculated using
 either Leo's notebook or relax are divided by the value calculated manually).

 FieldMethodJ(0)  J(wN) J(wH)
 ====   ======
 500  Farrow1 (ref)   1 (ref)   1 (ref)
  Leo   1 1 1
  relax 0.04758   0.04757   0.999

 600  Farrow1 (ref)   1 (ref)   1 (ref)
  Leo   1 1 1
  relax 0.03361   0.03361   0.999

 800  Farrow1 (ref)   1 (ref)   1
  Leo   1 1 1
  relax 0.01932   0.01932   0.999

 Then, if you take the different values for J(0) and J(wN) and compare from
 field to field, you get this :

   J(0)  J(wN) J(wH)
       
 500/600 -1.415 1.415 1
 500/800 -2.462 2.462 1

 Those ratios are similar to what you get when comparing fields quadratically
 :

 (600/500)^2 = (1.2)^2 = 1.44 ~ 1.415
 (800/500)^2 = (1.6)^2 = 2.56 ~ 2.462

 So there seems to be a problem somewhere in the calculations of J(0) and
 J(wN) and, to a lesser extent, J(wH)...

 I first thought the problem was related with bug #9238... In fact, before
 this bug was solved, the problem was worst by a factor of ~2... Still, the
 skewing of Jw mapping results is quite important. Maybe is this something
 with the units or constants values...

 Thanks for helping me !


 Sébastien :)






 ___

 Reply to this item at:

   http://gna.org/bugs/?9259

 ___
   Message sent via/by Gna!
   http://gna.org/


 ___
 relax (http://nmr-relax.com)

 This is the relax-devel mailing list
 relax-devel@gna.org

 To unsubscribe from this list, get a password
 reminder, or change your subscription options,
 visit the list information page at
 https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/relax-devel


___
relax (http://nmr-relax.com)

This is the relax-devel mailing list
relax-devel@gna.org

To unsubscribe from this list, get a password
reminder, or change your subscription options,
visit the list