RE: Bowman v. U.S.
Would the result be the same if a school required community service, but prohibited students from fulfilling that obligation in a religious setting, or excluding say Sunday school teaching from the list of permissible placements? Marc Stern -Original Message- From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of hamilto...@aol.com Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 7:51 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Bowman v. U.S. While speech is involved in the classroom, career preparation is more involved than just speech. The state is not simply handing out funds for the sheer joy of learning or enriching discourse. The state funding of ministers or rabbis for that matter is a direct and knowing benefit to religious institutions. That is different from the abstract treatment of learning as nothing but a discourse of speech. Marci --Original Message-- From: Volokh, Eugene Sender: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics ReplyTo: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: May 4, 2009 7:41 PM Subject: RE: Bowman v. U.S. What exactly is it about government-funded education directed at future careers that keeps it from being pure speech? It presumably wouldn't just be the government funding, since that was at issue in Rosenberger as well. I take it the theory must be that education is somehow more than just pure speech, in constitutionally significant ways. But why, especially when we're talking about education that basically just involves talking, rather than science labs, football games, and the like? Marci Hamilton writes: In any event, this is not pure speech -- it is government funding education directed at future careers. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Bowman v. U.S.
Liberty Counsel had a case such as the one Marc describes. It settled favorably. Here is the Liberty Counsel press release concerning the settlement of the case: January 29, 2008 School Board Settles Lawsuit By Amending Policy and Accepting Student’s Community Service Hours at Church Long Beach, CA – The Long Beach District School Board has approved a settlement agreement with Christopher Rand, a high school student who was denied credit for community service hours he completed at his church. Chris has now received full credit for the hours. The district administration also rewrote its community service learning policy to allow students to complete mandatory community service hours at either secular or religious organizations, including churches, on the same terms. In October 2007, Liberty Counsel filed a lawsuit against the district because Chris’s school refused to grant credit for more than 70 hours of community service, solely because it was performed at Long Beach Alliance Church. He interacted with the children in the church’s programs, answered questions, assisted with crafts and art projects, supervised activity time to help ensure safety, and performed other duties. After Chris submitted the required documentation regarding his volunteer service, he was denied credit because the district’s prior community service learning policy stated, “Service to your religious community does not count.” If Christopher had given the same service in a secular school or in a nonreligious childcare program, his service would have been credited. Shortly after Liberty Counsel filed suit, the district agreed to award Chris credit for the full 72.5 hours that had previously been rejected. In addition to giving Chris credit for his community service, the district accepted input from Liberty Counsel in revising its policy to comply with the First Amendment. Under the new policy, religious organizations will receive the same treatment as other nonprofit organizations in terms of the types of community service work that is permitted. Students are expressly allowed to supervise and assist with leading organized children’s activities, such as those performed by Chris. The district also agreed to pay attorney’s fees and costs to Liberty Counsel. Mathew D. Staver, Founder of Liberty Counsel and Dean of Liberty University School of Law, commented: “When community service is a graduation requirement, schools cannot limit service to secular venues. Discrimination against performing community service for religious organizations violates the First Amendment and offends the rich religious heritage that made this country great.” Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902 --- On Tue, 5/5/09, Marc Stern mst...@ajcongress.org wrote: From: Marc Stern mst...@ajcongress.org Subject: RE: Bowman v. U.S. To: hamilto...@aol.com, Law Religion issues for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 7:25 AM Would the result be the same if a school required community service, but prohibited students from fulfilling that obligation in a religious setting, or excluding say Sunday school teaching from the list of permissible placements? Marc Stern -Original Message- From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of hamilto...@aol.com Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 7:51 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Bowman v. U.S. While speech is involved in the classroom, career preparation is more involved than just speech. The state is not simply handing out funds for the sheer joy of learning or enriching discourse. The state funding of ministers or rabbis for that matter is a direct and knowing benefit to religious institutions. That is different from the abstract treatment of learning as nothing but a discourse of speech. Marci --Original Message-- From: Volokh, Eugene Sender: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics ReplyTo: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: May 4, 2009 7:41 PM Subject: RE: Bowman v. U.S. What exactly is it about government-funded education directed at future careers that keeps it from being pure speech? It presumably wouldn't just be the government funding, since that was at issue in Rosenberger as well. I take it the theory must be that education is somehow more than just pure speech, in constitutionally significant ways. But why, especially when we're talking about education that basically just involves talking, rather than science labs, football games, and the like? Marci Hamilton writes: In any event, this is not pure speech -- it is government funding education directed at future careers. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see
Query from a lawyer
A lawyer who's working on an Establishment Clause case asked me this question, and I thought I'd pass it along: I was wondering if you knew ... about any recent cases--on any level--or law review articles that do a particularly good job discussing the current state of the Lemon test. I'm finding--and it seems like courts are finding--very confusing exactly what Agostini did to Lemon and how courts are applying Lemon-Agostini. Any suggestions? Thanks, Eugene ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Summum Edited Opinion
Does anyone know of a link to a good edited version of Summum? I am teaching a First Amendment Course this summer, and I would like to assign an edited version of the case (with a link for students to access it). Thanks, Rick Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Summum
Never mind. I found a link to an edited version of the Summum opinion. It is here if others are interested. Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Query from a lawyer
LOL! Sorry. I know this is serious. I feel his/her pain. I have nothing to offer to help. But perhaps it may be of some comfort to the lawyer that at least some of us who consider these matters with some frequency can't be particularly helpful -- or if we are being helpful in some concrete way, we can be pretty sure that others of equal or greater expertise will see it at least 2 other ways. Steve On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Volokh, Eugene vol...@law.ucla.edu wrote: A lawyer who's working on an Establishment Clause case asked me this question, and I thought I'd pass it along: I was wondering if you knew ... about any recent cases--on any level--or law review articles that do a particularly good job discussing the current state of the Lemon test. I'm finding--and it seems like courts are finding--very confusing exactly what Agostini did to Lemon and how courts are applying Lemon-Agostini. Any suggestions? Thanks, Eugene ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Prof. Steven Jamar Howard University School of Law Associate Director, Institute of Intellectual Property and Social Justice (IIPSJ) Inc. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Query from a lawyer
There is no reason for him to think he can find the holy grail of Lemon. On these issues, litigators have to argue both/and, not either/or. Marci Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Steven Jamar stevenja...@gmail.com Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 14:05:07 To: Law Religion issues for Law Academicsreligionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Query from a lawyer ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
