Re: [Repeater-Builder] Service Monitors with D-Star
Bryon Jeffers K0BSJ wrote: Well I will agree with Nate on this one.. The crazy D-Star will only do it's AMBE digital and will not pass analog voice... At least when using a Quantar/Quantro with P25 capability you can set it up with CAI (Clear Air Interface)/P25 IMBE and it will do either analog voice or P25 digital. You can really piss off the guys running analog when you key up in digital. On the other hand you can get some serious interest in digital if they really want to play... FWIW-CAI stands for Common Air Interface. It's the term for the actual digital protocol that P25 uses. So when you say P25 CAI, you are saying that you are using the P25 over the air standard protocol. -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Service Monitors with D-Star
James wrote: Bryon Jeffers K0BSJ wrote: Well I will agree with Nate on this one.. The crazy D-Star will only do it's AMBE digital and will not pass analog voice... At least when using a Quantar/Quantro with P25 capability you can set it up with CAI (Clear Air Interface)/P25 IMBE and it will do either analog voice PSST ... hey there ... :) Doesn't CAI stand for Common Air Interface. (Thats the Astro IMBE that all the manufacturers support, wheras BIG M used to have the AMBE version) Yup! But don't use the term Astro. Astro is a Motorola trademark, like Private Line (PL)! IMBE is the vocoder chip type, and has nothing to do with Motorola. The original Astro used a VSLEP vocoder chip, and is not supported by Motorola anymore. Ahhh ... the wonderful world of acronyms!! James Boy, is THAT an understatement -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Digital repeater allocations, was Service Monitors with D-Star
Nate Duehr wrote: Not trying to be a spoil-sport, but since Mototrbo isn't a documented public protocol doesn't it fall under the encrypted transmission rules, and wouldn't be allowed in the Amateur bands? No, because any Mototrbo radio can talk to any other Mototrbo radio set for the same frequency, etc. As long as it doesn't require an encryption key to be loaded, it is not encrypted, and therefore legal. Or another way to look at it, if you can pick up one of those radios and hear what is being said without getting any information from the people using it, it's legit. Unencrypted Astro, Aegis, or Provoice works the same way. -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Cross-band Repeating.
Jason Cato wrote: Can someone tell me what equipment I will need to cross band repeat a Uniden SMU4525KT UHF into an Icom 2100H VHF? I want to be able to move around my property with my H/T, and still be able to get into repeaters my H/T can't reach. Also, can I use the same multi-band antenna for both at the same time with a diplexer? Or would the VHF transmission kill the UHF reception, or vice versa? Well, I can't answer all, but I can answer some. Typically, small cross-band repeaters are HALF duplex, not full duplex. That means the receiver of one is connected to the transmitter of another (on a different band). This is the way many mobile rigs which do this work. (it allows you to take a hand-held into a restaurant, for example). They accomplish their mission via a diplexer. Yes, many use a single, multi-band antenna. I had a Yaesu mobile that worked like that and now use an ICOM which does the same thing. To make this work effectively, you need a way to shut off long tails on a repeater as cross bands typically do their work based on COR (carrier operated relay). If the repeater has a long tail, you must wait for it to drop before transmitting (on the cross-band side). I don't know the specifics of either rig you mention, but the principles are all the same. Hope that helps. -- Larry W1HJF rapp at lmr dot com
[Repeater-Builder] Tuning By Ear?
Hi all. Installing a 2m repeater back into a higher/better location. The duplexer, (Wacom 641), was tuned and seemed to be operating perfectly. When moved to the new location, there was a lot of TX noise and desense introduced into the system. With a weak and STABLE portable station transmitting into the input frequency, and listening on an HT connected through the RX side, I noticed a fair amount of attenuation. (Signal straight from antenna was full scale, thru duplexer was about a 7). SO, I (by ear and signal) retuned the RX band pass filters to get an almost full scale signal. When the repeater was put back on the air, The densense problem was better, so I listened to the noise level on his signal and carefully adjusted each band=pass filter for minimum noise. This seemed to help the desense problem. When I adjust transmit power from 0 watts to 35 watts, I hear no audible noise added. At 40 watts, noise begins to enter the received signal. Now, I'm concerned about WHY this happened, mechanical changes, impedance mismatches, etc., and if I could have messed anything else up by doing this by ear. Also, I'm thinking I could do the same with the TX pass filters, but I also know I could really mess up VSWR and other things without having proper field test equipment. Any thoughts? Should I leave it as is, or could I possibly do some tuning to make the duplexer better? Repeater is 35 watts out, and currently pretty well balanced I think.. If a station can hear it decently with a 5 to 7 S-meter reading on a moble, 1/4 antenna, they can get in with a slight bit of noise at 5 watts. Is this suitable, acceptable, or should there be more receive? Thanks, 73 Jeff - N5VAV
[Repeater-Builder] Spectrum Communications
Does anyone know about Spectrum Communications? I ordered a receiver from them over two months ago and have not received it as yet. I call almost every day to find out the status of the shipment and get nobody to answer the phone. I leave a message every time I call for Kevin to call me back, but since Wednesday of last week I have heard nothing from him. Seems like Kevin is the only contact person at Spectrum Communications. Is Kevin Shaffer (spelling) the owner? Or is he just a the contact person at that company? Does anyone know who the owner is? Joel, NN6J
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Spectrum Communications
nn6j wrote: Does anyone know about Spectrum Communications? I ordered a receiver from them over two months ago and have not received it as yet. I call almost every day to find out the status of the shipment and get nobody to answer the phone. I leave a message every time I call for Kevin to call me back, but since Wednesday of last week I have heard nothing from him. Seems like Kevin is the only contact person at Spectrum Communications. Is Kevin Shaffer (spelling) the owner? Or is he just a the contact person at that company? Does anyone know who the owner is? Joel, NN6J My suggestion-do whatever you have to get your money back, and find something else. There has been nothing but bad comments about them on all the lists I'm on. -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Spectrum Communications
As Jim pointed out... the problem(s) you report are frequent for the way Spectrum does business. The trick is to see if they charged your credit card or cashed a check for the order. You might need to reverse the charge before the credit card time limit is up. IE do it fast... s. nn6j [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone know about Spectrum Communications? I ordered a receiver from them over two months ago and have not received it as yet. I call almost every day to find out the status of the shipment and get nobody to answer the phone. I leave a message every time I call for Kevin to call me back, but since Wednesday of last week I have heard nothing from him. Seems like Kevin is the only contact person at Spectrum Communications. Is Kevin Shaffer (spelling) the owner? Or is he just a the contact person at that company? Does anyone know who the owner is? Joel, NN6J
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Cross-band Repeating.
At 4/24/2007 07:34, you wrote: Jason Cato wrote: Can someone tell me what equipment I will need to cross band repeat a Uniden SMU4525KT UHF into an Icom 2100H VHF? I want to be able to move around my property with my H/T, and still be able to get into repeaters my H/T can't reach. Also, can I use the same multi-band antenna for both at the same time with a diplexer? Or would the VHF transmission kill the UHF reception, or vice versa? Well, I can't answer all, but I can answer some. Typically, small cross-band repeaters are HALF duplex, not full duplex. That means the receiver of one is connected to the transmitter of another (on a different band). This is the way many mobile rigs which do this work. That's not the definition of half duplex that I've been using. To me, half duplex means that transmission occurs on a different frequency from reception, but only one at a time, not simultaneously. Full duplex is simultaneous transmission reception using separate frequencies. In both cases, whether the two frequencies are within the same amateur band or not is irrelevant. So one could in fact operate full duplex on a dual-band radio if it has simultaneous transmit receive capability. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Spectrum Communications
In a message dated 4/24/2007 9:50:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does anyone know about Spectrum Communications? Hi Joel, I read your post and the 1st thing that went thought my mind was, here we go again! That a side Users here have painted a poor picture about Spectrum. Spectrum has had major customer service issues over the past few years. For example, slow or no response, orders not being filled or lost in space, and repairs taking forever. I have a SCR1000 VHF here that has been semi retired. It had the best audio I think I ever heard, but it drifted and always seemed to need to be re-tweaked (problems with trimmers) I replaced it with a Micor and never looked back. I guess it wasn't bad for 70-80's technology, just not great. Good Luck Brian, WD9HSY ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Need VHF MSR2000 Repeater help (ahhhh! LMR-400 again)
tomnevue [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for all the input. I have some information now and I hope I'll have the rest tomorrow. Great... you've got questions..? We've got answers... Where have I heard that before? [major text edit (for sanity)] Repeater was at 155Mhz with a 700Khz split. I confirmed that the repeater was fully operational before doing any Ham conversion. excellente' I did this by operating into a dummy load and using 2 HT's that were part of this system. Well... not the test I had in mind but what the heck. Onward... The only thing done to the repeater for Ham conversion was retuning, moving the configuration jumpers needed and modifying the Squelch Gate card per Skipps article. All internal cabling is exactly as supplied by Motorola. He's a trouble maker... I know him well. The Sinclair Q202 (4 can) duplexer was aligned in a laboratory by someone who has experience doing this; notch slightly better than 90dB. This exciter has the added backplane filter plug assembly. Per my previous post... I'd park the duplexer and service only the repeater until you find the problems. You also mention going from an original 700KHz repeater offset to an Amateur (2 meter band) 600KHz offset. Are you using the same duplexer? The base unit was at approximately 155Mhz also. I moved jumpers as needed to look like the repeater. I got another SG card and made the same modification. You should keep one Squelch Gate Module Stock until you get one repeater station working as normal. Just keeps your sanity to have a known original/standard for benchmark testing. The Rec / Trans cables are the same cables supplied by Motorola with TR switch removed and bulkhead connectors added. So, the Base looks just like the original repeater. No it is not..! There are a number of different tr relay cables used and they don't full duplex well without some bit of caution. Is your rx cable a small white only cable direct to the output jack and is that jack cable connection sealed 100% with a rear mounted SO-239 jack coax hood? The PA output cable should be Brown RG-393/400U or similar type teflon coaxial cable. Unless you have the luxury of some semi small rigid coax (hard line) you can use. If you're using the white relay coax in the repeater tx line... part of your problem is leakage to from the small white coax. The jumper cables from the repeater cabinet to the Duplexer is Milspec RG400 and no adapters are used. Ahhh! TAKE THE LMR-400 COAX AND THROW IT AWAY! Replace it with some RG-214 (mil spec type). One item to note... If you were testing all this with just the repeater first (no duplexer per my post). You would not have to worry about the LMR-400 hosing up the works until you later confirmed the repeater is working normally. Once again... TAKE THE LMR-400 COAX AND THROW IT IN THE TRASH! I pre-adjusted the coils the amount estimated by the graphs excellente' I built a test meter and followed the step by step instructions to tune the RF circuits. I really don't what to mess up a good thing... but the metering point values displayed by the original 50uA meter movement (test box) will actually be slightly different from the same test point when using a Multi Meter. Just something to know... I netted the crystal. Smell like fish? just kidding... I did not make any adjustment to the modulation at this point. If the repeater has the original ctcss pl module/card in place you need only confirm the transmit ctcss level is about 700KHz and you can consider the tx channel element IDC value is pretty close to where it should be for normal voice operation. The starting points for tuning both the receiver and transmitter were very close to the final settings. Should be... although some of the metering point dips and peaks are really, really small in value. You have to be watching the test point meter locations with a quality meter and a bright light to make sure you reach the right coil positions/locations. When the transmitter power is turned up above 4 watts into either a separate antenna or the duplexer or combinations of duplexer separate antennas the receiver is badly desensed, You should have the pa output parked into a termination (load) for most all this early testing. the repeater randomly hangs and sometimes makes a loud growl sound when dropped. doesn't know the words I tested the 2 units with a 3rd unmodified SG card and had the same problem. Helps isolate the mod as being a source of the problem(s). Have I missed anything?? Yeah... a bit. Trash the LMR-400 Cable. Per my first post... take the repeater pa output direct from the pa to your termination/load for testing. also get rid of (replace) the hacked and soldered tr/relay coax cables. Make 100% sure your cabinet side mounted SO-239 jacks have the proper rear mounted hoods (shields). ... that is
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Need VHF MSR2000 Repeater help - More MSR-2000 PA war stories
More MSR-2000 PA war stories One other cute little MSR PA Section tidbit I didn't think to mention. Depending on which PA version and Model you have there... If the PA was ever operated into a reflective load without proper circulator - isolator type protection... then you can assume the PA Harmonic filter probably got hot. In some cases hot enough that parts at high current points desolder themselves quite easily. So... I make it a point to check every PA Harmonic Filter Section before placing a refurbished repeater back into service. Many times I've found the Harmonic Filter Caps and parts just kind of floating loose inside the shield/cover. ... and found the power output to be semi normal (the expected value). In the UHF 110 watt pa's there are two versions.. the early version was a real problem child, while the B version PA's with the second series harmonic filter networks were much more stable and sane. If owners/ops would read the manual and make sure the power controls (level, voltage and current limit) are properly set you can sometimes prevent harmonic filter damage. Back in days of old... when we set up new MSR Repeaters... the first thing we did was to reduce the output power by at least 1/3. life goes on... cheers, s.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Need VHF MSR2000 Repeater help (ahhhh! LMR-400 again)
At 08:37 AM 4/24/2007, you wrote: Great... you've got questions..? We've got answers... Where have I heard that before? -I walked into a Radio Joke store during the height of that particular ad campaign and the sales clerk actually parroted the slogan to me. The conversation went like this: Clerk Welcome to Radio Shack where you have questions and we have answers Me Great! How much extra for the right answers? Clerk U.. ummmerr Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of the world famous RC210 Repeater Controller and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Coming soon - the most advanced repeater controller EVER. Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Spectrum Communications RUN! Don't WALK!
Does anyone know about Spectrum Communications? Joel ~ RUN - and get your money back quickly. Do not walk. BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:;W6CBS FN:W6CBS ORG:Hudson Sports Productions TITLE:Broadcast Engineer TEL;WORK;VOICE:1-650-595-5566 TEL;PREF:1-650-595-5566 ADR;WORK:;1-650-595-5566;P O Box 7143;San Carlos;California;94070;USA LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:1-650-595-5566=0D=0AP O Box 7143=0D=0ASan Carlos, California 94070=0D=0AUSA EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] REV:20060508T165031Z END:VCARD
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Tuning By Ear?
Well, you kind of messed it up. Tuning the pass band for best received signal is ok but any time you move the pass band even a small amount you mess up the notches big time. Then when you tuned for minimum noise with the repeater transmitter on you probably moved the notches for best noise rejection when you tuned the pass band tuning again. The notches follow the pass band tuning. What you might try again is to peak the pass band tuning (on receive side cavities) on the weak signal like you did the first time and then don't touch the pass band tuning again. Now turn the repeater transmitter on and tune the notch tuning controls on the receiver cans for minimum noise from the transmitter while listening to the weak signal. That should optimize the receive side of the duplexer. The above may cure the problem. If not then the transmit side may also need tuning. You would want to tune the pass band part of for maximum power out but be sure to do this at VERY low power out (a few watts only) or you will cause the tuning rods to arc and have burn spots and it will ruin the duplexer! After peaking the transmit pass cavities for maximum power out then turn up the power and listen to the weak signal again. Now tune the transmit can notches for least noise in the receiver. Again, do not touch the pass tuning once you start to tune the notches. This is a crude way of doing things but with no test equipment you may be able to get it useable. Note, when tuning the notches don't go too far on each tuning adjustment as they may be way off after tuning the pass and you may not have the proper amount of rejection on the notch to start with and may miss the proper tune spot. Go slow. It is best to check desense with the repeater on a dummy load to make sure that there are no antenna problems also. 73 Gary K4FMX -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 1:14 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Tuning By Ear? Hi all. Installing a 2m repeater back into a higher/better location. The duplexer, (Wacom 641), was tuned and seemed to be operating perfectly. When moved to the new location, there was a lot of TX noise and desense introduced into the system. With a weak and STABLE portable station transmitting into the input frequency, and listening on an HT connected through the RX side, I noticed a fair amount of attenuation. (Signal straight from antenna was full scale, thru duplexer was about a 7). SO, I (by ear and signal) retuned the RX band pass filters to get an almost full scale signal. When the repeater was put back on the air, The densense problem was better, so I listened to the noise level on his signal and carefully adjusted each band=pass filter for minimum noise. This seemed to help the desense problem. When I adjust transmit power from 0 watts to 35 watts, I hear no audible noise added. At 40 watts, noise begins to enter the received signal. Now, I'm concerned about WHY this happened, mechanical changes, impedance mismatches, etc., and if I could have messed anything else up by doing this by ear. Also, I'm thinking I could do the same with the TX pass filters, but I also know I could really mess up VSWR and other things without having proper field test equipment. Any thoughts? Should I leave it as is, or could I possibly do some tuning to make the duplexer better? Repeater is 35 watts out, and currently pretty well balanced I think.. If a station can hear it decently with a 5 to 7 S-meter reading on a moble, 1/4 antenna, they can get in with a slight bit of noise at 5 watts. Is this suitable, acceptable, or should there be more receive? Thanks, 73 Jeff - N5VAV Yahoo! Groups Links
[Repeater-Builder] quick question about spectrum analyzer noise floor
I have a quick question for the group about the noise floor of a spectrum analyzer, hope that with the collective knowledge and experience somebody can help me out a bit. We have customer that needed a couple of site surveys done, in order to detect any possible interference sources on 3 segments of 2MHz each (we used the 200KHz/div screen span setting), in the 455-465MHz region. Surveys have already been completed, but the customer is now asking us to redo a few of the site surveys that didn't catch any interference because the noise baseline on the instrument that was used is -110dbm. The customer says he needs it done at a noise floor of -124dbm to make sure the frequencies are really clean. Could anybody clarify how one does lower the noise floor of the analyzer? It was my understanding that the noise floor is a intrinsic characteristic of the instrument itself, and is so to say a measurement limit that cannot be varied without external aids (or maybe with a low-noise LNA?). But if one uses an external amplifier, wouldn't this also raise the site noise floor on the analyzer screen? Or if I am wrong, how could one lower the noise floor of the measurement in order to be able to take measurements at lower levels? Or is the noise floor also a function of the SITE noise level per se? BTW, we used a IFR (Aeroflex) COM-120B during the surveys, coupled with the EasySpan II software to make the screen captures. Thanks. -Alex
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tuning By Ear?
On 4/24/07, Gary Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is best to check desense with the repeater on a dummy load to make sure that there are no antenna problems also. Yup. Go there first. Shouldn't have touched the duplexer until that test was done. Oh well. Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] quick question about spectrum analyzer noise floor
Remember, the narrower the bandwidth on something the more sensitivty it can get. Theoretical sensitivty is -174dB, problem is that is at 1Hz of bandwidth. I would recommend slowing the sweep rate, narrowing the IF filter and taking smaller sweeps at a time. a 100kHz sweep with 10kHz per division is alot 'cleaner' then a 1MHz sweep. You can even try a 1kHz per division sweep. Then I would add them using a graphic editing program or simply cut the individual pieces of paper together from a printer. Connect the SA to a 50 ohm dummy load and experiment until you get a setting that works for you. I understand Rhode and Schwartz makes a great spectrum analyzer that has some insane noise floor, but is $80,000. On 4/24/07, vintageaudio2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a quick question for the group about the noise floor of a spectrum analyzer, hope that with the collective knowledge and experience somebody can help me out a bit. We have customer that needed a couple of site surveys done, in order to detect any possible interference sources on 3 segments of 2MHz each (we used the 200KHz/div screen span setting), in the 455-465MHz region. Surveys have already been completed, but the customer is now asking us to redo a few of the site surveys that didn't catch any interference because the noise baseline on the instrument that was used is -110dbm. The customer says he needs it done at a noise floor of -124dbm to make sure the frequencies are really clean. Could anybody clarify how one does lower the noise floor of the analyzer? It was my understanding that the noise floor is a intrinsic characteristic of the instrument itself, and is so to say a measurement limit that cannot be varied without external aids (or maybe with a low-noise LNA?). But if one uses an external amplifier, wouldn't this also raise the site noise floor on the analyzer screen? Or if I am wrong, how could one lower the noise floor of the measurement in order to be able to take measurements at lower levels? Or is the noise floor also a function of the SITE noise level per se? BTW, we used a IFR (Aeroflex) COM-120B during the surveys, coupled with the EasySpan II software to make the screen captures. Thanks. -Alex
Re: [Repeater-Builder] quick question about spectrum analyzer noise floor
As was previously posted, you need to slow down the sweep speed and/or narrow the resolution or video bandwidth, which may automatically slow down the sweep speed. The filtering is done digitally in most modern SAs, and this takes time, so the sweep is slowed down to accomodate this. You don't want to go TOO narrow otherwise you'll lose some amplitude accuracy. Narrowing the span of the sweep will also help. If the unit has a way to do a peak hold, or max hold, use that with a slow sweep (around 0.1 second per division) and leave it running for 10-20 minutes. All you can do is hope you catch a signal that pops up and stays there long enough to be captured. Any SA under a million dollars is a sampling sweep unit, as opposed to a real-time unit that can receive and display all frequencies at once. You don't have far to go. -127dBm is 0.1uV and I wouldn't expect any signal at that level or lower to cause interference with any system on 450 MHz. Bob M. == --- vintageaudio2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a quick question for the group about the noise floor of a spectrum analyzer, hope that with the collective knowledge and experience somebody can help me out a bit. We have customer that needed a couple of site surveys done, in order to detect any possible interference sources on 3 segments of 2MHz each (we used the 200KHz/div screen span setting), in the 455-465MHz region. Surveys have already been completed, but the customer is now asking us to redo a few of the site surveys that didn't catch any interference because the noise baseline on the instrument that was used is -110dbm. The customer says he needs it done at a noise floor of -124dbm to make sure the frequencies are really clean. Could anybody clarify how one does lower the noise floor of the analyzer? It was my understanding that the noise floor is a intrinsic characteristic of the instrument itself, and is so to say a measurement limit that cannot be varied without external aids (or maybe with a low-noise LNA?). But if one uses an external amplifier, wouldn't this also raise the site noise floor on the analyzer screen? Or if I am wrong, how could one lower the noise floor of the measurement in order to be able to take measurements at lower levels? Or is the noise floor also a function of the SITE noise level per se? BTW, we used a IFR (Aeroflex) COM-120B during the surveys, coupled with the EasySpan II software to make the screen captures. Thanks. -Alex __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Need VHF MSR2000 Repeater help (ahhhh! LMR-400 again)
As we heard on vintage Saturday Night Live shows... Never Mind... See what happens when you switch to decafe... If the coax you are using is RG-400 well then... probably not a major problem source. But never say never about pretty much anything. If the coax is LMR-400... then trash it and replace it with RG-214 mil spec coax. RG-214 mil spec is one of the better types of coax to use as repeater to duplexer jumpers... short of using flexible hard line (yeah, yeah oxy moron time). cheers, skipp *back to my face in the soup bowl thanks Dwayne... The jumper cables from the repeater cabinet to the Duplexer is Milspec RG400 and no adapters are used. Ahhh! TAKE THE LMR-400 COAX AND THROW IT AWAY! Replace it with some RG-214 (mil spec type).
RE: [Repeater-Builder] quick question about spectrum analyzer noise floor
Can Someone Please put the Spectrum Analyzer thread in Layman Terms I have a Motorola Serv Monitor R2001C With the Analyzer and a Icom R-7000 Communications Receiver with a AVCOM Spectrum Analyzer I Can see 10 Mhz at a Time and I know that its nice to Find Signals. But I always thought that a Actual receiver IE Scanner running the right Software would actually find and see more Hits because it is actually a Receiver. I know for a fact I can hear a lot more on a Cheap Scanner then using a Service Monitor on the same antenna. What do I not understand here Thanks Don KA9QJG
[Repeater-Builder] VoCom UHF amp
Group, I recently aquired a VoCom UHF amplifier, model UVC100-18R, with some other stuff. It is presently tuned to 464 mHz, at least according to its nameplate and its former usage. Can it be easily tuned to 444 mHz? Is tech data available somewhere? It seems that VoCom was bought/adsorbed by Cresend. Cresend still sells VoCom products but don't list much tech data on their website. Haven't even opened the case yet so don't know if there are adjustments. What should I look out for? 73, AL, K9SI
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Spectrum Communications
skipp, thanks for the idea. Do you have any suggestions as to which compay to order a receiver from. Our repeater is near other repeaters and we don't want any rf interference. Joel skipp025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As Jim pointed out... the problem(s) you report are frequent for the way Spectrum does business. The trick is to see if they charged your credit card or cashed a check for the order. You might need to reverse the charge before the credit card time limit is up. IE do it fast... s. nn6j wrote: Does anyone know about Spectrum Communications? I ordered a receiver from them over two months ago and have not received it as yet. I call almost every day to find out the status of the shipment and get nobody to answer the phone. I leave a message every time I call for Kevin to call me back, but since Wednesday of last week I have heard nothing from him. Seems like Kevin is the only contact person at Spectrum Communications. Is Kevin Shaffer (spelling) the owner? Or is he just a the contact person at that company? Does anyone know who the owner is? Joel, NN6J Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Cross-band Repeating.
I presume you are talking about the ham bands At the very least, for 1-way crossbanding the radio that will receive the signals from your HT must provide an carrier-detect output that will be used to key the other radio, and you must provide an audio path between the radios. For 2-way (full) crossbanding, you would need carrier-detect outputs from both radios, and audio paths in both directions. More info would be helpful, as there are ID issues to contend with, depending on whether you do 1-way or 2-way crossbanding. This is an issue that MANY (most?) people doing crossband repeat with dual-band ham rigs do not understand, and consequently, do not do legally. Is your HT single-band or dual-band? If dual-band, can you hear the repeater(s) directly with it? If so, you'd only need 1-way crossbanding, and that simplifies things a little... George, KA3HSW -Original Message- From: Jason Cato [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 23, 2007 8:09 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Cross-band Repeating. Can someone tell me what equipment I will need to cross band repeat a Uniden SMU4525KT UHF into an Icom 2100H VHF? I want to be able to move around my property with my H/T, and still be able to get into repeaters my H/T can't reach. Also, can I use the same multi-band antenna for both at the same time with a diplexer? Or would the VHF transmission kill the UHF reception, or vice versa?
Re: [Repeater-Builder] License renewal
Hello Ralph Things have changed with ham radio and FCC. For a number of years the + on tech+ has been eliminated from a person's license. It can get to be a problem verifying you had passed the code and now it doesn't make any difference. For your info, if you are not aware, on Feb 23rd this year code is no longer required for any license. Hope this answered your question. 73 de Tom MAnning, AF4UG - Original Message - From: Ralph Mowery To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] License renewal --- Don Kupferschmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, Recently I posted a question on renewing my Dad's license. I received a lot of response from you, and I was successful in renewing his license. Now, I'm noticing something different, though. From 1997 to 2007, he was listed as a tech plus. QRZ has updated his license and is currently listing him as a technician. Did the rules change out in FCC land that now groups all tech + to just tech's? If so, is there any changes in his operating status (like what frequencies he can / can't use)? Or, did something go wrong in the renewal process that I now have to address. TIA '73. Don, KD9PT [EMAIL PROTECTED] When the rules changed this year to eliminate the code requirements there is no need to have a + . He can operate on all the frequencies listed for a tech license. That is some CW only low bands, data and voice in some portions of 10 meters, and all above 50 mhz. Go to www.arrl.org and download the chart for the frequencies. All techs and older tech + now have the same priviliges. That means the techs can operate CW in som elow bands even if they never took a cw test. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Cross-band Repeating.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 4/24/2007 07:34, you wrote: Jason Cato wrote: Can someone tell me what equipment I will need to cross band repeat a Uniden SMU4525KT UHF into an Icom 2100H VHF? I want to be able to move around my property with my H/T, and still be able to get into repeaters my H/T can't reach. Also, can I use the same multi-band antenna for both at the same time with a diplexer? Or would the VHF transmission kill the UHF reception, or vice versa? Well, I can't answer all, but I can answer some. Typically, small cross-band repeaters are HALF duplex, not full duplex. That means the receiver of one is connected to the transmitter of another (on a different band). This is the way many mobile rigs which do this work. That's not the definition of half duplex that I've been using. To me, half duplex means that transmission occurs on a different frequency from reception, but only one at a time, not simultaneously. Full duplex is simultaneous transmission reception using separate frequencies. In both cases, whether the two frequencies are within the same amateur band or not is irrelevant. So one could in fact operate full duplex on a dual-band radio if it has simultaneous transmit receive capability. Bob NO6B Bob, You're right, my mistake. The OP was asking for information on cross-band repeating and that's what I gave him. I should not, however, labeled it as half duplex. -- Larry W1HJF rapp at lmr dot com
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Spectrum Communications
I wish I had seen this posting a few months ago. Our club ordered a UHF system from Spectrum, we are having great difficulty getting them to deliver as promised. Jim, WK5Y Pres/Trustee Pittsburg County ARC McAlester, OK - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Spectrum Communications In a message dated 4/24/2007 9:50:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does anyone know about Spectrum Communications? Hi Joel, I read your post and the 1st thing that went thought my mind was, here we go again! That a side Users here have painted a poor picture about Spectrum. Spectrum has had major customer service issues over the past few years. For example, slow or no response, orders not being filled or lost in space, and repairs taking forever. I have a SCR1000 VHF here that has been semi retired. It had the best audio I think I ever heard, but it drifted and always seemed to need to be re-tweaked (problems with trimmers) I replaced it with a Micor and never looked back. I guess it wasn't bad for 70-80's technology, just not great. Good Luck Brian, WD9HSY -- See what's free at AOL.com.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Spectrum Communications
You should look into one of those MTR2000 rx's It looks like an mtr 2000 repeater, but has no tx and no pa.. just rock solid RX. One of the regulars on here could prolly come up with a model etc.. Joel Nadler wrote: skipp, thanks for the idea. Do you have any suggestions as to which compay to order a receiver from. Our repeater is near other repeaters and we don't want any rf interference. Joel */skipp025 [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: As Jim pointed out... the problem(s) you report are frequent for the way Spectrum does business. The trick is to see if they charged your credit card or cashed a check for the order. You might need to reverse the charge before the credit card time limit is up. IE do it fast... s. nn6j wrote: Does anyone know about Spectrum Communications? I ordered a receiver from them over two months ago and have not received it as yet. I call almost every day to find out the status of the shipment and get nobody to answer the phone. I leave a message every time I call for Kevin to call me back, but since Wednesday of last week I have heard nothing from him. Seems like Kevin is the only contact person at Spectrum Communications. Is Kevin Shaffer (spelling) the owner? Or is he just a the contact person at that company? Does anyone know who the owner is? Joel, NN6J Yahoo! Groups Links -- Jay Urish CCNANetwork Engineer Home)972-691-0125 Cell)972-965-6229
Re: [Repeater-Builder] quick question about spectrum analyzer noise floor
On 4/24/07, Don KA9QJG [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can Someone Please put the Spectrum Analyzer thread in Layman Terms I have a Motorola Serv Monitor R2001C With the Analyzer and a Icom R-7000 Communications Receiver with a AVCOM Spectrum Analyzer I Can see 10 Mhz at a Time and I know that it's nice to Find Signals. But I always thought that a Actual receiver IE Scanner running the right Software would actually find and see more Hits because it is actually a Receiver. I know for a fact I can hear a lot more on a Cheap Scanner then using a Service Monitor on the same antenna. What do I not understand here Thanks Don KA9QJG The easiest and closest you can get to layman's terms on this topic is this, Don... Selectivity and Sensitivity always interact. If you want a highly sensitive receiver, you usually have to filter it heavily (making it more selective) and can only listen to a very narrow range of the RF spectrum. If you want a very non-selective receiver (e.g. a typical cheap scanner) you end up having to make the trade off of lowering the sensitivity, or you'll overload the front-end. Those are the generalities... Through good design, software defined radio, filters, yadda yadda yadda -- all sorts of interesting technologies, that many RF engineers out there apparently make a pretty good living creating and using -- you can usually find a nice balance for whatever you're attempting to do. In the case of most modern mid-range spectrum analyzer designs -- the type of equipment many Amateurs and small RF shops might have access to -- if you're trying to look at (receive) a large swath of RF spectrum, the analyzer simply can't hear as well as it can when you give it less to work with. For the gentleman who's trying to do a site survey... he will probably have to do smaller chunks of spectrum to get the maximum listening performance out of his spectrum analyzer, and then stitch together the resulting graphs for his customer, since they're wanting a view of a large chunk of spectrum, but the instrument simply can't do it. Thus, the comment by someone else... that there ARE devices out there that CAN do a quick and very sensitive site-survey way down into the noise floor, but their cost is prohibitive. The really fancy equipment usually has computer controlled RF filtering systems that track with the receiver in an automated fashion, and various other tricks (including multiple receivers operating at the same time, but being displayed as a single contiguous spectrum analysis) that allow them to internally make the trade-offs a simpler device can't make. Someone lesser quality or older non-specialized equipment might have to do this work themselves... the hard way. Does that help? Unless the poor guy has $80,000 lying around burning a hole in his pocket, he needs to use the general principals of RF engineering to his advantage and ask the spectrum analyzer to do a little less work, while he does a little more. Nate WY0X
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Need VHF MSR2000 Repeater help
Sounds more and more like the duplexer is not tuned as well as you were led to believe. Use two 2m ham rigs, one as a rx and one as a tx, into the duplexer, and let us know the results. I've also seen cans that looked good on a tracking generator but then worked horribly once on the antenna at the site due to a bad jumper to the antenna feedline. Once I even had a bad N-UHF adapter that was causing horrible desense. That adapter now resides some 100m into the woods behind the site! If a bad connection after the duplexer changes the impedance far from 50 ohms, it may affect the operation of the duplexer. Eric KE2D --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, tomnevue [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for all the input. I have some information now and I hope I'll have the rest tomorrow. Repeater was at 155Mhz with a 700Khz split. It was fully operational at the time of removal, due to 800Mhz upgrade about 5 years ago. The Units were stored in an airconditioned/heated environment and were not touched my anyone until I received it. I confirmed that the repeater was fully operational before doing any Ham conversion. I did this by operating into a dummy load and using 2 HT's that were part of this system. The only thing done to the repeater for Ham conversion was retuning, moving the configuration jumpers needed and modifying the Squelch Gate card per Skipps article. All internal cabling is exactly as supplied by Motorola. The Sinclair Q202 (4 can) duplexer was aligned in a laboratory by someone who has experience doing this; notch slightly better than 90dB. This exciter has the added backplane filter plug assembly. The base unit was at approximately 155Mhz also. I moved jumpers as needed to look like the repeater. I got another SG card and made the same modification. The Rec / Trans cables are the same cables supplied by Motorola with TR switch removed and bulkhead connectors added. So, the Base looks just like the original repeater. The jumper cables from the repeater cabinet to the Duplexer is Milspec RG400 and no adapters are used. I tuned both units the same way (for the same frequency). For the exciter, I pre-adjusted the coils the amount estimated by the graphs from the starting freq (155 MHz). The final adjustment is 147.120/147.720MHz. I built a test meter and followed the step by step instructions to tune the RF circuits. I netted the crystal. I did not make any adjustment to the modulation at this point. I did make receiver / repeater audio level comparisons and the 2 are very close. I did not make any adjustments to the PA except to turn down the power to 50 watts. The 2M power out was approximately the same as it was at 155MHz. I tuned both receivers by presetting the coils the appropriate amount from the starting frequency of 155MHz. Then again I followed the tune up procedures in the manual. The signal source was a well shielded low power HT into a dummy load. The starting points for tuning both the receiver and transmitter were very close to the final settings. I am testing the 2 repeaters by swapping 1 set of receive/transmit elements. When the transmitter power is turned up above 4 watts into either a separate antenna or the duplexer or combinations of duplexer/separate antennas the receiver is badly desensed, the repeater randomly hangs and sometimes makes a loud growl sound when dropped. With the transmitter turned down to about 4 watts (into the Duplexer) or 50 watts into a dummy load (at the cabinet) the receiver sensitivity is about what I expected (receives weak signals). So, it's a fine operating 4 watt repeater. I tested the 2 units with a 3rd unmodified SG card and had the same problem. Tomorrow I'll put a different transmitter and receiver thru the duplexer and see if the receiver experiences desensing. Of course these will not be connected as a repeater. I guess after that I'll have to see if I can get help from someone with a spectrum analyzer or station monitor. Have I missed anything?? MODEL NUMBERS: Repeater - C73GSB3105AT, Transmitter ABZ89FC3632, Receiver ABZ89FR3633, Receive unit TRD6182APR, Exciter TLD9242C, PA TLD2532A Base - C73GSB3105B, Transmitter ABZ89FC3632, Receiver ABZ89FR3633, Receive unit TRD6182A, Exciter TLD9232B, PA TLD2532A Tom W2MN
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Spectrum Communications
tisk tisk.. Shoulda asked... Jim Russell wrote: I wish I had seen this posting a few months ago. Our club ordered a UHF system from Spectrum, we are having great difficulty getting them to deliver as promised. Jim, WK5Y Pres/Trustee Pittsburg County ARC McAlester, OK - Original Message - *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Tuesday, April 24, 2007 10:09 AM *Subject:* Re: [Repeater-Builder] Spectrum Communications In a message dated 4/24/2007 9:50:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does anyone know about Spectrum Communications? Hi Joel, I read your post and the 1st thing that went thought my mind was, here we go again! That a side Users here have painted a poor picture about Spectrum. Spectrum has had major customer service issues over the past few years. For example, slow or no response, orders not being filled or lost in space, and repairs taking forever. I have a SCR1000 VHF here that has been semi retired. It had the best audio I think I ever heard, but it drifted and always seemed to need to be re-tweaked (problems with trimmers) I replaced it with a Micor and never looked back. I guess it wasn't bad for 70-80's technology, just not great. Good Luck Brian, WD9HSY See what's free at AOL.com http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF0002000503. -- Jay Urish CCNANetwork Engineer Home)972-691-0125 Cell)972-965-6229
Re: [Repeater-Builder] VoCom UHF amp
On 4/24/07, Al Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Group, I recently aquired a VoCom UHF amplifier, model UVC100-18R, with some other stuff. It is presently tuned to 464 mHz, at least according to its nameplate and its former usage. The website shows that to order the Vocom line, you must provide input frequency and drive, indicating that there's possibly some tuning on the input. Can it be easily tuned to 444 mHz? Is tech data available somewhere? It seems that VoCom was bought/adsorbed by Cresend. Cresend still sells VoCom products but don't list much tech data on their website. Haven't even opened the case yet so don't know if there are adjustments. What should I look out for? It would appear (like in many companies) that the budget for the website comes from sales/marketing and not the support group or Engineering, so they have little technical information up there. Why not just call them and ask, Al? They have an 800 number, so the call is free... 800 USA MADE. Cute. You're going to need to know how good/bad they are at customer service when/if the thing blows up anyway... Might as well get through whatever processes they have to make yourself a known entity. Heck, they might even be smart enough to put you on a mailing list for any known technical issues that come up... unlikely, but if they're REALLY good... maybe. In fact, it's always fun to ASK if they have such a program. Always gets someone in the support group all excited and then they talk to the manager, and then a year later... they have one. (HA!) Let 'em know they need more tech specs and details up on their website, while you have 'em on the phone. (GRIN) Who knows? Maybe they'll give you a free re-tune for the idea? Yeah... right... haven't heard of anyplace doing customer service like THAT for a long time... sigh... Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] quick question about spectrum analyzer noise floor
At 4/24/2007 09:50 AM, you wrote: Could anybody clarify how one does lower the noise floor of the analyzer? It was my understanding that the noise floor is a intrinsic characteristic of the instrument itself, and is so to say a measurement limit that cannot be varied without external aids (or maybe with a low-noise LNA?). But if one uses an external amplifier, wouldn't this also raise the site noise floor on the analyzer screen? Not if the SA is self-noise-limited. For example, for a 10 kHz resolution bandwidth, the noise floor of a typical environment @ UHF is going to be somewhere around k*290*1, or ~134 dBm. If your spectrum analyzer's noise floor at that resolution BW is -110 dBm, then you need at least 24 dB of gain ahead of its input to see down to that level. Fortunately, you don't need weak-signal DXer-grade sensitivity, so the 16 dB or so you get from an Angle Linear PHEMT LNA should be sufficient. Just subtract the gain of the added LNA from the display reading you've got your amplitude. As others have pointed out, you can also reduce your resolution bandwidth, but once you reduce it to less than the bandwidth of the signals you're looking for (10 kHz for NBFM, already pushing the limit a bit), the signals of interest are reduced as well as the noise. You'll still see unmodulated or weakly modulated carriers at resolution BWs down to Hz, but when modulated they may disappear into the noise. Or if I am wrong, how could one lower the noise floor of the measurement in order to be able to take measurements at lower levels? Or is the noise floor also a function of the SITE noise level per se? I'm familiar with quite a few comm. sites in SoCal know of only one that seems to have a minor broadband noise problem @ UHF. If there's a lot of RF at the site you're investigating, you might need a 2 MHz window filter in front of the LNA. A cavity filter with low-loss loops may also just cover the 2 MHz span you need, though there will be a little attenuation at the edges. Bob NO6B
RE: [Repeater-Builder] quick question about spectrum analyzer noise floor
At 4/24/2007 11:31 AM, you wrote: Can Someone Please put the Spectrum Analyzer thread in Layman Terms I have a Motorola Serv Monitor R2001C With the Analyzer and a Icom R-7000 Communications Receiver with a AVCOM Spectrum Analyzer I Can see 10 Mhz at a Time and I know that it's nice to Find Signals. But I always thought that a Actual receiver IE Scanner running the right Software would actually find and see more Hits because it is actually a Receiver. I know for a fact I can hear a lot more on a Cheap Scanner then using a Service Monitor on the same antenna. What do I not understand here A spectrum analyzer is a very fancy, amplitude-reading scanner. Some like the IFR A7550 have detector options so by setting the span to zero one can actually use it as a receiver. Spectrum analyzers typically have more dynamic range bandwidth than a scanner, that dynamic range bandwidth comes at the expense of sensitivity. Some quality SAs I've used have noise figures in excess of 30 dB. If you want to see more on your SA, put a preamp in front of it. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Spectrum Communications
Joel, We can help you out with any receiver you may need. Give us a call or e-mail: N3XCC at repeater-builder.com More info: www.repeater-builder.com/custombuilt Scott Repeater-builder.com (the company) Scott Zimmerman Amateur Radio Call N3XCC 612 Barnett Rd Boswell, PA 15531 - Original Message - From: Joel Nadler To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Spectrum Communications skipp, thanks for the idea. Do you have any suggestions as to which compay to order a receiver from. Our repeater is near other repeaters and we don't want any rf interference. Joel skipp025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As Jim pointed out... the problem(s) you report are frequent for the way Spectrum does business. The trick is to see if they charged your credit card or cashed a check for the order. You might need to reverse the charge before the credit card time limit is up. IE do it fast... s. nn6j wrote: Does anyone know about Spectrum Communications? I ordered a receiver from them over two months ago and have not received it as yet. I call almost every day to find out the status of the shipment and get nobody to answer the phone. I leave a message every time I call for Kevin to call me back, but since Wednesday of last week I have heard nothing from him. Seems like Kevin is the only contact person at Spectrum Communications. Is Kevin Shaffer (spelling) the owner? Or is he just a the contact person at that company? Does anyone know who the owner is? Joel, NN6J Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.4/768 - Release Date: 4/19/2007 5:32 AM
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Need VHF MSR2000 Repeater help (ahhhh! LMR-400 again)
THANKS FOR THE REPLY. PLEASE SEE MY NOTES (CAPITALIZED). --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, skipp025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: tomnevue w2mn@ wrote: Thanks for all the input. I have some information now and I hope I'll have the rest tomorrow. Great... you've got questions..? We've got answers... Where have I heard that before? [major text edit (for sanity)] Repeater was at 155Mhz with a 700Khz split. I confirmed that the repeater was fully operational before doing any Ham conversion. excellente' I did this by operating into a dummy load and using 2 HT's that were part of this system. Well... not the test I had in mind but what the heck. Onward... The only thing done to the repeater for Ham conversion was retuning, moving the configuration jumpers needed and modifying the Squelch Gate card per Skipps article. All internal cabling is exactly as supplied by Motorola. He's a trouble maker... I know him well. The Sinclair Q202 (4 can) duplexer was aligned in a laboratory by someone who has experience doing this; notch slightly better than 90dB. This exciter has the added backplane filter plug assembly. Per my previous post... I'd park the duplexer and service only the repeater until you find the problems. You also mention going from an original 700KHz repeater offset to an Amateur (2 meter band) 600KHz offset. Are you using the same duplexer? SAME DUPLEXER. I'LL PARK IT AND KEEP WORKING ON THE REPEATER UNIT. The base unit was at approximately 155Mhz also. I moved jumpers as needed to look like the repeater. I got another SG card and made the same modification. You should keep one Squelch Gate Module Stock until you get one repeater station working as normal. Just keeps your sanity to have a known original/standard for benchmark testing. YUP. THAT'S WHY IT'S UNTOUCHED. The Rec / Trans cables are the same cables supplied by Motorola with TR switch removed and bulkhead connectors added. So, the Base looks just like the original repeater. No it is not..! There are a number of different tr relay cables used and they don't full duplex well without some bit of caution. Is your rx cable a small white only cable direct to the output jack and is that jack cable connection sealed 100% with a rear mounted SO-239 jack coax hood? I HAVE NOT TOUCHED THE CABLES ON THE ORIGINAL MOTO REPEATER UNIT. THE RX CABLE IS SMALL WHITE AND THE TX CABLE IS BROWN. BOTH GOING TO SO239 WITH RF SEALED BACK. THE CABLES ON THE MODIFIED BASE HAVE THE TR SWITCH REMOVED AND MOUNTED TO S0239 WITH RF SEALED BACK. THESE ARE SMALL WHITE, WITH THE TX CABLE BEING SLIGHTLY LARGER. The PA output cable should be Brown RG-393/400U or similar type teflon coaxial cable. Unless you have the luxury of some semi small rigid coax (hard line) you can use. If you're using the white relay coax in the repeater tx line... part of your problem is leakage to from the small white coax. OK THIS COULD BE A FACTOR IN THE MODIFIED BASE BUT THE REPEATER AND MODIFIED BASE EXHIBIT THE SAME OPERATIONAL PROBLEM. The jumper cables from the repeater cabinet to the Duplexer is Milspec RG400 and no adapters are used. Ahhh! TAKE THE LMR-400 COAX AND THROW IT AWAY! Replace it with some RG-214 (mil spec type). NO NO NO NOT LMR-400. RG-400U MIL SPEC,DOUBLE SILVER BRAID, TEFLON DIELECTRIC, BROWN JACKET. 4 FT FOR EACH JUMPER. One item to note... If you were testing all this with just the repeater first (no duplexer per my post). You would not have to worry about the LMR-400 hosing up the works until you later confirmed the repeater is working normally. Once again... TAKE THE LMR-400 COAX AND THROW IT IN THE TRASH! I pre-adjusted the coils the amount estimated by the graphs excellente' I built a test meter and followed the step by step instructions to tune the RF circuits. I really don't what to mess up a good thing... but the metering point values displayed by the original 50uA meter movement (test box) will actually be slightly different from the same test point when using a Multi Meter. Just something to know... BUILT THE METER BOX AS DESCRIBED IN THE MANUAL; 50uA METER MOVEMENT, MULTIPOSITION SWITCH, PLUG CONSTRUCTED FROM SOCKET (WITH BRASS PINS ADDED) SALVAGED FROM OLD MOTO MOBILE UNIT. I netted the crystal. Smell like fish? just kidding... TOO SMALL TO GRAB WITH MY BARE HANDS; HAD TO NET. (hihi). I did not make any adjustment to the modulation at this point. If the repeater has the original ctcss pl module/card in place you need only confirm the transmit ctcss level is about 700KHz and you can consider the tx channel element IDC value is pretty close to where it should be for normal voice operation. SAME PL UNIT. The starting points for tuning both the receiver and transmitter were very close to the final settings.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] quick question about spectrum analyzer noise floor
A spectrum analyzer is a receiver.. It gets tuned by an electronic sweep signal rather than by using a knob. The spectrum analyzer gets tuned from one part of the band to another part of the band (called sweep width) just the same as you would manually tune your receiver from say frequency A to B. The spectrum analyzer has a narrow IF filter just like any receiver does. However most spectrum analyzers have many selectable bandwidth filters where your receiver may have only one or two. In a regular receiver the detected audio feeds an audio amplifier. In a spectrum analyzer the detector has a response down to DC and feeds the vertical amplifier of a scope. The stronger the signal the more output from the detector and the higher the deflection on the vertical scale of the scope. The electronic signal that tunes the analyzers frequency is a saw tooth signal. That same tuning signal is also fed to the horizontal deflection circuit of the scope and causes the trace to move across the scope at the same rate as the receiver in the spectrum analyzer gets tuned. This gives you a horizontal trace on the scope that is in sync with the frequency being tuned. If the analyzer happens to tune across a signal you get a vertical deflection on the scope at the point that corresponds to the frequency. This lets you see the amplitude of the signal and the frequency it is on. You can do exactly the same thing with a receiver by tuning it and watching the S meter. You can tell the frequency and how strong it is at that frequency. The shape of the signal that is seen on the spectrum analyzer is actually the shape of the band pass filter in the analyzer. A narrower filter gives what appears to be a narrower signal on the screen. Most analyzers automatically select the narrowest usable filter for a given frequency span and sweep speed. Better analyzers also let you select these independently. There is a trade off though. The wider the sweep the slower the sweep speed needs to be. Also the narrower the IF bandwidth the slower the sweep speed needs to be and or the narrower the sweep width. When adjusting those manually you will notice that too narrow a filter will distort the shape of the display peak and it will also start to shrink in amplitude. The same thing happens if you select too wide a sweep or too fast sweep speed. All three are dependent on the others. Any time you see the display starting to shrink in amplitude as you are adjusting you need to change one of the three back the other way so this does not happen. The cause is phase shift in the IF. Think about it like the signal does not have enough time in the IF band pass to deliver enough power to be detected fully. Widening the IF filter, slowing down the sweep speed or narrowing the sweep width all accomplishes the same thing. More time for the signal to be in the pass band of the IF filter. Noise floor is the maximum sensitivity of the spectrum analyzer. The weakest signal it can detect. With a wider IF filter it lets in more noise power and raises the noise floor. To see a weaker signal (lower the noise floor) you need to use a narrower IF filter. (video filters help some too) When using a narrower IF filter as explained above, the sweep speed needs to be slowed down and or the sweep width made less in order to be effective. The problem with using very narrow filters is it takes a long time to sweep across a range of frequencies and you may miss a signal that comes and goes (is not on all the time). With a narrow filter it may take several seconds before the next sweep comes by on the analyzer because it has to run so slow. With slow sweeps it is necessary to have a storage scope in the analyzer. Most modern analyzers have digital storage to constantly display what the analyzer has already swept by. Without storage the sweep would need to run very fast as it does on an ordinary oscilloscope or you would have a hard time seeing the picture. One other difference in a (good) spectrum analyzer and a regular receiver is dynamic range. A spectrum analyzer needs to be able to see very weak signals and at the same time not overload on a very strong signal. This is a very difficult task and many analyzers fall short in this area. The IFR1200 type analyzers are not good in the dynamic range department nor are the Motorola analyzers in the service monitors. You can easily be fooled when using one as a spectrum analyzer if not careful. They do not have the features of selectable filters and sweep speed either. There is a world of difference between the analyzers in service monitors and a real spectrum analyzer. Someone asked about lowering the noise floor of an analyzer. A good preamp may help but you have to be careful that it does not generate IM products in the analyzer and give you false readings. You would subtract the gain of the preamp from the readings to give absolute signal levels. It would be best tried
Re: [Repeater-Builder] VoCom UHF amp
I have several Vocom amps in service, Cresend backs them up 100%, their service and response is nothing less than fantastic. never had an issue with them. Lance N2HBA - Original Message - From: Nate Duehr To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] VoCom UHF amp On 4/24/07, Al Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Group, I recently aquired a VoCom UHF amplifier, model UVC100-18R, with some other stuff. It is presently tuned to 464 mHz, at least according to its nameplate and its former usage. The website shows that to order the Vocom line, you must provide input frequency and drive, indicating that there's possibly some tuning on the input. Can it be easily tuned to 444 mHz? Is tech data available somewhere? It seems that VoCom was bought/adsorbed by Cresend. Cresend still sells VoCom products but don't list much tech data on their website. Haven't even opened the case yet so don't know if there are adjustments. What should I look out for? It would appear (like in many companies) that the budget for the website comes from sales/marketing and not the support group or Engineering, so they have little technical information up there. Why not just call them and ask, Al? They have an 800 number, so the call is free... 800 USA MADE. Cute. You're going to need to know how good/bad they are at customer service when/if the thing blows up anyway... Might as well get through whatever processes they have to make yourself a known entity. Heck, they might even be smart enough to put you on a mailing list for any known technical issues that come up... unlikely, but if they're REALLY good... maybe. In fact, it's always fun to ASK if they have such a program. Always gets someone in the support group all excited and then they talk to the manager, and then a year later... they have one. (HA!) Let 'em know they need more tech specs and details up on their website, while you have 'em on the phone. (GRIN) Who knows? Maybe they'll give you a free re-tune for the idea? Yeah... right... haven't heard of anyplace doing customer service like THAT for a long time... sigh... Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Need VHF MSR2000 Repeater help (ahhhh! LMR-400 again)
On 4/24/07, tomnevue [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the repeater randomly hangs and sometimes makes a loud growl sound when dropped. doesn't know the words WHEN ht STOPS SENDING, REPEATER SHOULD DROP BUT IT RANDOMLY HANGS (ON), THEN DROPS, AND OCCASIONALLY GOES BACK INTO TRANSMIT WITHOUT THE ht. SOMETIMES THIS DROP AND RESTART IS ACCOMPANIED BY A LOUD GROWL SOUND IN THE AUDIO. I'M FIGURING THIS IS SOME KIND OF RF LEAKAGE BACK INTO THE RECEIVER OR FOR SURE THE AUDIO PATH. THIS CONDITION EXISTS WITH / WITHOUT A CONTROLLER AND ALSO WITH THE UNMODIFIED SG CARD. Sounds an awful lot like a mix... Can you turn of CTCSS encode (transmitted) if you're using it for CTCSS squelch (receiver) and see if the repeater still does it? This will help you determine if the repeater is hearing itself or something else. Nate WY0X
[Repeater-Builder] Gleyayre Amp question - Anyone know this amp?
I have aquired a glenayre amp that I know nothing about. The model number is GL-MCP21A. No matter where I search, I can not seem to find info on it. It is a 3U mount, with a really cool rotary fan in the front of the case. There is a power output reading on the front panel. It runs from 28V DC. I just happen to have the macthing power supply :) It has a pre-driver that consists of a single MRF-182. It then goes into a wild 10-way divider and then combined back into a single output. The final driver stage has 10 or 12 independently fused MRF-182 transistors. Each MRF182 is rated for 30W, so this looks to be in the order of 150-200Watts. Any idea of a frequency range or power output. The one thing on the net is a PDF from Asia that shows it as a 280Mhz paging amp. This would make a wicked 220Mhz repeater amp if I could get some info on it. I would like to know more about it before blindly throwing RF into it. Do most Glenayre exciters output 4W? Dave Cameron VE7LTD
[Repeater-Builder] The ongoing msr-2000 saga
tomnevue [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: THANKS FOR THE REPLY. PLEASE SEE MY NOTES (CAPITALIZED). SAME DUPLEXER. I'LL PARK IT AND KEEP WORKING ON THE REPEATER UNIT. Yep, you should solve the repeater problem before you deal with the duplexer. I HAVE NOT TOUCHED THE CABLES ON THE ORIGINAL MOTO REPEATER UNIT. THE RX CABLE IS SMALL WHITE AND THE TX CABLE IS BROWN. BOTH GOING TO SO239 WITH RF SEALED BACK. Yeah but pull the drawer down and look at how the tx (brown) and rx (small white) wires make their way up to the chassis SO-239 jacks (with matching hoods/shields). The coax cables should not be anywhere close to each other. You will often find them tie wraped into a bunch along with other wires. THE CABLES ON THE MODIFIED BASE HAVE THE TR SWITCH REMOVED AND MOUNTED TO S0239 WITH RF SEALED BACK. THESE ARE SMALL WHITE, WITH THE TX CABLE BEING SLIGHTLY LARGER. The small white cable really should not be used to duplex the transmitter power in a repeater. part of your problem is leakage to from the small white coax. OK THIS COULD BE A FACTOR IN THE MODIFIED BASE BUT THE REPEATER AND MODIFIED BASE EXHIBIT THE SAME OPERATIONAL PROBLEM. A loose nut behind the watt meter... NO NO NO NOT LMR-400. RG-400U MIL SPEC,DOUBLE SILVER BRAID, TEFLON DIELECTRIC, BROWN JACKET. 4 FT FOR EACH JUMPER. The brown rg-400u type coax works pretty well for modest coax jumpers but people often have a hard time with the coax connectors. So be sure to take a serious look at the cable ends/connectors. BUILT THE METER BOX AS DESCRIBED IN THE MANUAL; 50uA METER MOVEMENT, MULTIPOSITION SWITCH, PLUG CONSTRUCTED FROM SOCKET (WITH BRASS PINS ADDED) SALVAGED FROM OLD MOTO MOBILE UNIT. Wun'der ba! SAME PL (ctcss) UNIT. Then your starting TX channel element IDC value should result in the tx ctcss deviation value of about 700KHz with no voice audio present. point meter locations with a quality meter and a bright light to make sure you reach the right coil positions/locations. I RECALL ONLY 1 ADJUSTMENT THAT DIDN'T HAVE A WELL DEFINED PEAK / DIP. I THINK IT WAS ON THE RECEIVER. I WOULD HAVE TO CHECK MY NOTES TO SEE IF I MADE A COMMENT. It's more than easy to miss any peaks and valleys as a few changes are so small they are easily missed. When in doubt... go back to square one. The dips and peaks are always there as described in the manual... but a few are so small you really, really, really, really have to be staring at the meter box while you adjust the coils. YUP. I HAVE A SPARE 80 WATT MIRAGE (?) AMPLIFIER THAT I WAS THINKING OF SUBSTITUTING (FOR TEST PURPOSES) TO ELIMINATE THE PA AS A PROBLEM. NOTE THAT I DON'T SEE A PROBLEM UNLESS I'M RUNNING POWER. IF I RUN WITHOUT THE PA, I EXPECT EVERYTHING WILL BE OK (AT ABOUT 2 WATTS). yeah but you never said if you tried full power with the pa parked into a termination. That's the next test you might try. Direct from the rf pa output port to a serious load/termination not going through the original in cabinet coax cable leads. WHEN ht STOPS SENDING, REPEATER SHOULD DROP BUT IT RANDOMLY HANGS (ON), THEN DROPS, AND OCCASIONALLY GOES BACK INTO TRANSMIT WITHOUT THE ht. SOMETIMES THIS DROP AND RESTART IS ACCOMPANIED BY A LOUD GROWL SOUND IN THE AUDIO. I'M FIGURING THIS IS SOME KIND OF RF LEAKAGE BACK INTO THE RECEIVER OR FOR SURE THE AUDIO PATH. THIS CONDITION EXISTS WITH / WITHOUT A CONTROLLER AND ALSO WITH THE UNMODIFIED SG CARD. If you've got stray rf getting back into the receiver... I would expect the above to happen. Probably growls because it doesn't know the words... (sorry I couldn't help myself). NOW STARTING TO USE LARGER QUANTITIES OF SHINER BOCK (A TEXAS THING) TO LUBRICATE THE OPERATOR. Not too much... until the job is done. THE ONLY SINGLE ITEMS THAT I HAVE CONSISTENTLY USED ON BOTH REPEATER UNITS, WITH ALL THIS TESTING, IS THE FREQUENCY ELEMENTS. WHEN I SET THESE UP, I SIMPLY REPLACED THE CRYSTALS AND JUST SLIGHTLY ADJUSTED THE SINGLE FREQUENCY CONTROL. I HAD NO PROBLEM GETTING THE ELEMENT TO OSCILLATE OR MOVE ON TO THE EXACT FREQUENCY. What's the saga on the channel elements? Who made the rocks and who put them in the elements? CRYSTALS FOR THE OTHER FREQUENCY ARE EXPECTED TO ARRIVE TODAY. I SHOULD HAVE THEM INSTALLED IN THEIR WAITING ELEMENTS AND BE ABLE TO TRY THEM TOMORROW. TOM W2MN OK, keep us posted. s.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Spectrum Communications
Well I would go with the Kenwood TKR-740 or TKR-840 for a high end unit. thanks John - Original Message - From: Joel Nadler To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Spectrum Communications skipp, thanks for the idea. Do you have any suggestions as to which compay to order a receiver from. Our repeater is near other repeaters and we don't want any rf interference. Joel skipp025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As Jim pointed out... the problem(s) you report are frequent for the way Spectrum does business. The trick is to see if they charged your credit card or cashed a check for the order. You might need to reverse the charge before the credit card time limit is up. IE do it fast... s. nn6j wrote: Does anyone know about Spectrum Communications? I ordered a receiver from them over two months ago and have not received it as yet. I call almost every day to find out the status of the shipment and get nobody to answer the phone. I leave a message every time I call for Kevin to call me back, but since Wednesday of last week I have heard nothing from him. Seems like Kevin is the only contact person at Spectrum Communications. Is Kevin Shaffer (spelling) the owner? Or is he just a the contact person at that company? Does anyone know who the owner is? Joel, NN6J Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Spectrum Communications
If you need a Kenwood or Icom unit let me know. John - Original Message - From: Jay Urish To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Spectrum Communications tisk tisk.. Shoulda asked... Jim Russell wrote: I wish I had seen this posting a few months ago. Our club ordered a UHF system from Spectrum, we are having great difficulty getting them to deliver as promised. Jim, WK5Y Pres/Trustee Pittsburg County ARC McAlester, OK - Original Message - *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Tuesday, April 24, 2007 10:09 AM *Subject:* Re: [Repeater-Builder] Spectrum Communications In a message dated 4/24/2007 9:50:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does anyone know about Spectrum Communications? Hi Joel, I read your post and the 1st thing that went thought my mind was, here we go again! That a side Users here have painted a poor picture about Spectrum. Spectrum has had major customer service issues over the past few years. For example, slow or no response, orders not being filled or lost in space, and repairs taking forever. I have a SCR1000 VHF here that has been semi retired. It had the best audio I think I ever heard, but it drifted and always seemed to need to be re-tweaked (problems with trimmers) I replaced it with a Micor and never looked back. I guess it wasn't bad for 70-80's technology, just not great. Good Luck Brian, WD9HSY -- See what's free at AOL.com http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF0002000503. -- Jay Urish CCNA Network Engineer Home)972-691-0125 Cell)972-965-6229
[Repeater-Builder] Repeating D-Star
Took a couple of antique GE Phoenix SX mobile radios. Programmed for 442.0/ 447.0. With TOT. Carrier Squelch - Took Receiver Un Squelched lead to PTT thru a one transistor keying transistor. Took VOL / SQ Hi and ran it thru a single common emitter stage - bipolar amp and applied the collector output to the high side of the TX deviation control and set for +/- 1 Khz TXD. Did have to bypass the emitter leg of the single stage amp and wallah - DSTAR Repeater - sort of. Maybe P25 repeater too? Simple - really do need to regenerate the data signal and key on detected data with a CCD chip to give the preamble tone time to get thru. Until P25 radios become ham affordable I don't think they will be mainstream ham radio. I believe there is still a pretty hefty payment to Moto for use of the P25 standard, but I may be wrong. Steve NU5D On 4/24/07, Jim B. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James wrote: Bryon Jeffers K0BSJ wrote: Well I will agree with Nate on this one.. The crazy D-Star will only do it's AMBE digital and will not pass analog voice... At least when using a Quantar/Quantro with P25 capability you can set it up with CAI (Clear Air Interface)/P25 IMBE and it will do either analog voice PSST ... hey there ... :) Doesn't CAI stand for Common Air Interface. (Thats the Astro IMBE that all the manufacturers support, wheras BIG M used to have the AMBE version) Yup! But don't use the term Astro. Astro is a Motorola trademark, like Private Line (PL)! IMBE is the vocoder chip type, and has nothing to do with Motorola. The original Astro used a VSLEP vocoder chip, and is not supported by Motorola anymore. Ahhh ... the wonderful world of acronyms!! James Boy, is THAT an understatement -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL Yahoo! Groups Links -- Ham Radio Spoken Here.NU5D Nickel Under Five Dollars
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Spectrum Communications
Re: Spectrum Communications Posted by: Joel Nadler [EMAIL PROTECTED] nn6j Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:53 am ((PDT)) skipp, thanks for the idea. Do you have any suggestions as to which compay to order a receiver from. Our repeater is near other repeaters and we don't want any rf interference. Joel Joel, The most bullet proof receivers are still the Micor and Mastr II. They are the gold standards by which others are judged. They may be a thirty years old design but will still out last all of us if maintained. They are also pretty commonly found cheap at municipal auctions, most hamfests, and of course, eBay. 73, Al, K9SI
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Spectrum Communications
Did I miss it - or has anybody asked him what band he wants this receiver on ? CBS Bill ___ BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:;W6CBS FN:W6CBS ORG:Hudson Sports Productions TITLE:Broadcast Engineer TEL;WORK;VOICE:1-650-595-5566 TEL;PREF:1-650-595-5566 ADR;WORK:;1-650-595-5566;P O Box 7143;San Carlos;California;94070;USA LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:1-650-595-5566=0D=0AP O Box 7143=0D=0ASan Carlos, California 94070=0D=0AUSA EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] REV:20060508T165031Z END:VCARD
[Repeater-Builder] Mototrbo
Not trying to be a spoil-sport, but since Mototrbo isn't a documented public protocol doesn't it fall under the encrypted transmission rules, and wouldn't be allowed in the Amateur bands? Actually, Mototrbo is based on a European digital standard using TDMA. Motorola is selling it here. Google Mototrbo and check it out. Looks like D-Star has some very serious competition with some major players involved. 73, Al, K9SI
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Spectrum Communications
Joel, If you are looking for just a receiver Motorola made a nice Micor receiver in a 19 rack mount box. The only problem it was made to plug into their unified chassis mainly got get it power. I've taken these and built an AC supply inside. The box will hold a VHF or UHF receiver. I've seen these at Hamfest for $10. I normally use them for control rcvrs, but still work very well for repeater. They have a 5 cavity helical front end and were made to work in harsh RF enviorment. Not sure if you are into building up something like this for it does take a little work. Knowledge is king. Just takes a little work and you really learn something and get a very good piece of equipment. Spectrum is from the 70s when a Micor cost $1,000s and the tube stuff was still being used. It was easy to go with Spectrum for less than $1000 then, but today the Micors and GE Mastrs are real cheap; less than $50 for a complete rig. I've bought Micor base stations complete in cabinet with AC supply for $50. Most hams have no idea what it is and if one learns it one can have excellent repeaters for little money...well the radio part any way, hi. Still need good money in the antenna system. 73, ron, n9ee/r --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Al Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Re: Spectrum Communications Posted by: Joel Nadler [EMAIL PROTECTED] nn6j Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:53 am ((PDT)) skipp, thanks for the idea. Do you have any suggestions as to which compay to order a receiver from. Our repeater is near other repeaters and we don't want any rf interference. Joel Joel, The most bullet proof receivers are still the Micor and Mastr II. They are the gold standards by which others are judged. They may be a thirty years old design but will still out last all of us if maintained. They are also pretty commonly found cheap at municipal auctions, most hamfests, and of course, eBay. 73, Al, K9SI
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Cross-band Repeating.
I sell a repeater controller that can be put in a crossband mode. The controller normally has a repeater port and a remote base port. However, when put into crossband mode each port is to be connected to a transceiver and when it gets input on one it keys the other, typical crossband repeater. However, this sounds as if it is much more than what you need for it IDs, timeouts, remote control, etc. Same needed by a repeater. Really don't want to get into much here. Since you are on site and sounds like single user simple get input key other rig with audio connected between rxs and txs. Many use dual band antennas with diplexers (crossband coupler) and it works fine. 73, ron, n9ee/r --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Jason Cato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone tell me what equipment I will need to cross band repeat a Uniden SMU4525KT UHF into an Icom 2100H VHF? I want to be able to move around my property with my H/T, and still be able to get into repeaters my H/T can't reach. Also, can I use the same multi-band antenna for both at the same time with a diplexer? Or would the VHF transmission kill the UHF reception, or vice versa?
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Service Monitors with D-Star
OOp's My bad I realized it after I typed it. Too many acronyms... Bryon Jeffers KØBSJ At 09:00 AM 4/24/2007, you wrote: Bryon Jeffers K0BSJ wrote: Well I will agree with Nate on this one.. The crazy D-Star will only do it's AMBE digital and will not pass analog voice... At least when using a Quantar/Quantro with P25 capability you can set it up with CAI (Clear Air Interface)/P25 IMBE and it will do either analog voice or P25 digital. You can really piss off the guys running analog when you key up in digital. On the other hand you can get some serious interest in digital if they really want to play... FWIW-CAI stands for Common Air Interface. It's the term for the actual digital protocol that P25 uses. So when you say P25 CAI, you are saying that you are using the P25 over the air standard protocol. -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Spectrum Communications
we have about 5 or 6 of them all with power supplies all with Micor receivers let me know what you need and I can get you a price. John - Original Message - From: Ron Wright, Skywarn Coodinator To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 7:20 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Spectrum Communications Joel, If you are looking for just a receiver Motorola made a nice Micor receiver in a 19 rack mount box. The only problem it was made to plug into their unified chassis mainly got get it power. I've taken these and built an AC supply inside. The box will hold a VHF or UHF receiver. I've seen these at Hamfest for $10. I normally use them for control rcvrs, but still work very well for repeater. They have a 5 cavity helical front end and were made to work in harsh RF enviorment. Not sure if you are into building up something like this for it does take a little work. Knowledge is king. Just takes a little work and you really learn something and get a very good piece of equipment. Spectrum is from the 70s when a Micor cost $1,000s and the tube stuff was still being used. It was easy to go with Spectrum for less than $1000 then, but today the Micors and GE Mastrs are real cheap; less than $50 for a complete rig. I've bought Micor base stations complete in cabinet with AC supply for $50. Most hams have no idea what it is and if one learns it one can have excellent repeaters for little money...well the radio part any way, hi. Still need good money in the antenna system. 73, ron, n9ee/r --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Al Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Re: Spectrum Communications Posted by: Joel Nadler [EMAIL PROTECTED] nn6j Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:53 am ((PDT)) skipp, thanks for the idea. Do you have any suggestions as to which compay to order a receiver from. Our repeater is near other repeaters and we don't want any rf interference. Joel -- Joel, The most bullet proof receivers are still the Micor and Mastr II. They are the gold standards by which others are judged. They may be a thirty years old design but will still out last all of us if maintained. They are also pretty commonly found cheap at municipal auctions, most hamfests, and of course, eBay. 73, Al, K9SI
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Spectrum Communications
the other repeater we have is a Bridge Com System and had very good luck on the 2 meter band. John - Original Message - From: Maire-Radios To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Spectrum Communications we have about 5 or 6 of them all with power supplies all with Micor receivers let me know what you need and I can get you a price. John - Original Message - From: Ron Wright, Skywarn Coodinator To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 7:20 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Spectrum Communications Joel, If you are looking for just a receiver Motorola made a nice Micor receiver in a 19 rack mount box. The only problem it was made to plug into their unified chassis mainly got get it power. I've taken these and built an AC supply inside. The box will hold a VHF or UHF receiver. I've seen these at Hamfest for $10. I normally use them for control rcvrs, but still work very well for repeater. They have a 5 cavity helical front end and were made to work in harsh RF enviorment. Not sure if you are into building up something like this for it does take a little work. Knowledge is king. Just takes a little work and you really learn something and get a very good piece of equipment. Spectrum is from the 70s when a Micor cost $1,000s and the tube stuff was still being used. It was easy to go with Spectrum for less than $1000 then, but today the Micors and GE Mastrs are real cheap; less than $50 for a complete rig. I've bought Micor base stations complete in cabinet with AC supply for $50. Most hams have no idea what it is and if one learns it one can have excellent repeaters for little money...well the radio part any way, hi. Still need good money in the antenna system. 73, ron, n9ee/r --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Al Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Re: Spectrum Communications Posted by: Joel Nadler [EMAIL PROTECTED] nn6j Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:53 am ((PDT)) skipp, thanks for the idea. Do you have any suggestions as to which compay to order a receiver from. Our repeater is near other repeaters and we don't want any rf interference. Joel -- Joel, The most bullet proof receivers are still the Micor and Mastr II. They are the gold standards by which others are judged. They may be a thirty years old design but will still out last all of us if maintained. They are also pretty commonly found cheap at municipal auctions, most hamfests, and of course, eBay. 73, Al, K9SI
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeating D-Star
Yes you are wrong. Motorola does not nor did they ever own the APCO Project 25 standard. Many multiband excitation technologies commonly used today are the property of Digital Voice System Inc. (DVSI). They license Motorola (and other manufactures) to use the designs in their P25 radio systems. P25 amateur repeaters are slowing popping up here and there but mostly by LMR professionals who are also amateurs and have access to surplus gear so I agree with you that it will be some time before it becomes mainstream. Gary Steve Bosshard (NU5D) wrote: snip Until P25 radios become ham affordable I don't think they will be mainstream ham radio. I believe there is still a pretty hefty payment to Moto for use of the P25 standard, but I may be wrong. Steve NU5D
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeating D-Star
Thanks Gary, so what will it cost Mondo Ham to go out and buy a VHF P25 radio - portable - battery and charger antenna and speaker/mic new or used and the stuff to program it with? Thanks, Steve On 4/24/07, Gary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes you are wrong. Motorola does not nor did they ever own the APCO Project 25 standard. Many multiband excitation technologies commonly used today are the property of Digital Voice System Inc. (DVSI). They license Motorola (and other manufactures) to use the designs in their P25 radio systems. P25 amateur repeaters are slowing popping up here and there but mostly by LMR professionals who are also amateurs and have access to surplus gear so I agree with you that it will be some time before it becomes mainstream. Gary -- Ham Radio Spoken Here.NU5D Nickel Under Five Dollars
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeating D-Star
I don't know. Like any other radio gear it depends on the brand, model, and how badly the seller wants to sell I guess. Motorola isn't the only maker offering P25 digital audio capable radios (we'll assume CAI/IMBE compatible). Icom, Kenwood, and others are also offering rigs and surplus stuff pops up at the most unexpected times. Gary "Steve Bosshard (NU5D)" wrote: Thanks Gary, so what will it cost Mondo Ham to go out and buy a VHF P25 radio - portable - battery and charger antenna and speaker/mic new or used and the stuff to program it with? Thanks, Steve On 4/24/07, Gary [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yes you are wrong. Motorola does not nor did they ever own the APCO Project 25 standard. Many multiband excitation technologies commonly used today are the property of Digital Voice System Inc. (DVSI). They license Motorola (and other manufactures) to use the designs in their P25 radio systems. P25 amateur repeaters are slowing popping up here and there but mostly by LMR professionals who are also amateurs and have access to surplus gear so I agree with you that it will be some time before it becomes mainstream. Gary -- Ham Radio Spoken Here.NU5D Nickel Under Five Dollars
[Repeater-Builder] Motorola R100 repeater
I have acquired a Motorola R100 repeater and I am trying to find out its capabilities. Do anyone know if the Motorola R100 repeater will tune down to the 434 MHz part of the amateur band? Will it program to an offset other than 5 Mhz? Is programming software available for this? Where can it be found? Is the programming software and cables only available from Motorola? I can tune the RF stages of the repeater and I have all the necessary RF test gear to do this. I need to find out how to program the amateur frequencies, get the software or find out where to get this done. Thank You, John Lloyd, K7JL __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Micor RX frequency ranges?
Well, I just read through the article at http://www.repeater-builder.com/rbtip/uhfsensitronRX.html and it says that this mod is not necessary if the freq being received is above 445 MHz... My RX freq is 449.550, but I cant get the current receiver sensitivity to tune any better than .6µV for 12dB SINAD. I'm wondering if this mod will help even though the receiver is operating close to factory specs, or if I should just chuck this receiver board in the crapper in favor of a better one, or... Any ideas? Mark - N9WYS -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of Bob M. Actually Dave, N1OFJ, who peruses this group, modified his receiver to go down to 444.475 MHz, following info he got from Kevin W3KKC. I suspect that info is on the repeater-builder site in the Motorola/Micor area, but if not, Kevin was the original source. It's the crystal multipliers that need padding, and not by much, perhaps 3-9pf. Bob M. == --- N9WYS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob, Can you elaborate on where the padding needs to be added? I'm using 2 UHF (450) boards which have been tuned to 449... One works just fine, but the other needs some help. I know it's not all that far out-of-range, but maybe this one that is troublesome is being finicky. Also - Jordan, if you're looking to unload any of those... I could use one or two more. Contact me direct if this might be the case. Mark - N9WYS n9wys (at) ameritech (dot) net -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of Bob M. Sorry, but while the chassis may be UHF, the receiver boards come in four flavors: 403-420, 450-470, 470-494, 494-512. They're all wide-band (5 kHz). The 450-470 MHz receivers can be coaxed down into the 440 MHz band by padding a few key spots. Look at the part number stamped on the receiver board. It should be TRE120x, where x is 1, 3, 4, or 5 for the above mentioned bands. While there's no 2 shown, it would be for 420-450, if they made a receiver for that band. Bob M. ==
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeating D-Star
At 4/24/2007 05:17 PM, you wrote: I don't know. Like any other radio gear it depends on the brand, model, and how badly the seller wants to sell I guess. Motorola isn't the only maker offering P25 digital audio capable radios (we'll assume CAI/IMBE compatible). Icom, Kenwood, and others are also offering rigs and surplus stuff pops up at the most unexpected times. Gary What would be far more interesting to me would be for one of the ham manufacturers to offer a P25 user radio. How much would adding the vocoder add to the cost of a current analog FM model? If it's comparable in price to Icom's DStar radios (which are substantially more than their analog counterparts - roughly double the cost), it just might be worth it. Something to add to my wish list of radio features to deliver to the reps. at Dayton, along with better IMD performance split CTCSS tone. Bob NO6B
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Cross-band Repeating.
Yes, I am talking about the ham bands, 70cm and 2m. I am using a dual band FT-60R as my H/T. I can receive the repeaters in question about 75% of the time, so I would be looking to operate full duplex. Also, I don't want to deal with feedback issues. Which wouldn't be an issue with the 60. Now, I do have an FT-530 which can x-band repeat, but there is the problem of low wattage output and no id for the remote equipment. Otherwise I'd just look for a dual band amp and be done with it. I understand about the ID requirement for remote transmitters. I need to know what equipment I need. i.e.controller, duplexer, whatever... Has anyone built one, that can tell me what I need besides the 2 radios? Do I just need the controller and wire it to my radios? Has anyone ever taken a Pyramid SVR-200 into the ham band? Pyramid says the VCO will go out of lock if I try to. What about other brands of mobile repeaters? --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, George Henry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I presume you are talking about the ham bands At the very least, for 1-way crossbanding the radio that will receive the signals from your HT must provide an carrier-detect output that will be used to key the other radio, and you must provide an audio path between the radios. For 2-way (full) crossbanding, you would need carrier-detect outputs from both radios, and audio paths in both directions. More info would be helpful, as there are ID issues to contend with, depending on whether you do 1-way or 2-way crossbanding. This is an issue that MANY (most?) people doing crossband repeat with dual-band ham rigs do not understand, and consequently, do not do legally. Is your HT single-band or dual-band? If dual-band, can you hear the repeater(s) directly with it? If so, you'd only need 1-way crossbanding, and that simplifies things a little... George, KA3HSW -Original Message- From: Jason Cato [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 23, 2007 8:09 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Cross-band Repeating. Can someone tell me what equipment I will need to cross band repeat a Uniden SMU4525KT UHF into an Icom 2100H VHF? I want to be able to move around my property with my H/T, and still be able to get into repeaters my H/T can't reach. Also, can I use the same multi-band antenna for both at the same time with a diplexer? Or would the VHF transmission kill the UHF reception, or vice versa?
[Repeater-Builder] Reading Andrew cable date codes
Does anyone know how to decyper the Andrew date codes? Right now I have two date codes of LDF5, one is 00064-7 the other is 01065-6 ? I thought the -7 would be for 2007 but the cable is atleast 2 years old?
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Motorola R100 repeater
Howdy John, I too have the R100 repeater and though I havn't programmed it on ham freqs yet, it is a simple procedure from what I have read. First you must find the R100 program... (you can email me on this one) then you must modify it via a hex editor. There are a couple of lines you have to modify in the program it self to get it to program a R100. After that you need a really SLOW SLOW SLOW computer running DOS. Load it on that computer. You will next have to build the cable or buy one. It is a ribless cable. (will send you the parts list and layout). Hook the computer to the radio via the cable and enter your frequencies. 73 de Joe KB5VJY --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Mr John Lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have acquired a Motorola R100 repeater and I am trying to find out its capabilities. Do anyone know if the Motorola R100 repeater will tune down to the 434 MHz part of the amateur band? Will it program to an offset other than 5 Mhz? Is programming software available for this? Where can it be found? Is the programming software and cables only available from Motorola? I can tune the RF stages of the repeater and I have all the necessary RF test gear to do this. I need to find out how to program the amateur frequencies, get the software or find out where to get this done. Thank You, John Lloyd, K7JL __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[Repeater-Builder] Re: License renewal
Don, Actually the FCC stopped putting + on the Tech class a while back, but kept in their data base who had passed the code so they could do Novice and 10 meter HF work. As others have said now with the deletion of the code requirement the no-code-techs got the expanded previdledges of Novice and 10 meter phone. There is not difference between what would be the Tech and Tech+ license. Now looking for no-code-extras. 73, ron, n9ee/r --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Don Kupferschmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi to all list members, I need to renew my father's amateur radio license shortly. Has anyone on the list used fcc.gov, been able to navigate through it, and successfully renewed their license? How easy / hard is it? Does anyone out there have a step by step instruction list to use as a guide? Or, is there a web site out there that can help me? I'm not looking to use a 3rd party provider if I can do this alone. TIA to all who reply. Don, KD9PT
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Motorola R100 repeater
http://www.batlabs.com Charlie It is not the class of license the Amateur holds, but the class of the Amateur that holds the license. Charles Mumphrey Amateur Radio Station Kc5ozh Kc5ozh Rowlett Repeater: 441.325 MHz + 162.2 Kc5ozh Dallas Repeater: 441.950 MHz + 162.2 Kc5ozh Rowlett Repeater II: 441.950 MHz + 110.9 Rowlett R.A.C.E.S. Unit 823 http://www.CharliesElectronics.com http://www.hello-radio.org http://www.emergency-radio.org Original Message Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Motorola R100 repeater From: Mr John Lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, April 24, 2007 7:21 pm To: Repeater Builders repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Cc: John Lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have acquired a Motorola R100 repeater and I am trying to find out its capabilities. Do anyone know if the Motorola R100 repeater will tune down to the 434 MHz part of the amateur band? Will it program to an offset other than 5 Mhz? Is programming software available for this? Where can it be found? Is the programming software and cables only available from Motorola? I can tune the RF stages of the repeater and I have all the necessary RF test gear to do this. I need to find out how to program the amateur frequencies, get the software or find out where to get this done. Thank You, John Lloyd, K7JL __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Links
[Repeater-Builder] Service monitor recommendation
I saw a past post about the HP8924C service monitor/CDMA test set. What are your thoughts about this unit? I would like to have my own service monitor but can't justify the high cost of the other portable units. I have seen some of these HP8924C units at a more reasonable price. My plans for the unit would be to help maintain our 220 repeater/duplexers. The repeater is currently located at my home. I would of course prefer to have the high power option but am not familiar enough with this type of test equipment to determine if it would fullfill my needs without adding other test equipment. I am unsure if the unit fits my needs. I do have a HP8642 signal generator as well as other general test equipment. Is this unit what I need or does it have a shortcoming? Anyone using one currently? Thanks Tim KB2MFS
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Service monitor recommendation
I have one and I highly recommend it. It is just like an HP-8920B only it does CDMA testing, so you don't have to use that portion of it. Be warned, it weighs 70 pounds and is not exactly a field unit. Without the high power option it is only rated to 2W on the RF In/Out port. Option 060 brings this up to 60 Watts continuous, 120 watts for 10 seconds. The spectrum analyzer ports are only rated to 200mW. On 4/24/07, Tim and Janet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I saw a past post about the HP8924C service monitor/CDMA test set. What are your thoughts about this unit? I would like to have my own service monitor but can't justify the high cost of the other portable units. I have seen some of these HP8924C units at a more reasonable price. My plans for the unit would be to help maintain our 220 repeater/duplexers. The repeater is currently located at my home. I would of course prefer to have the high power option but am not familiar enough with this type of test equipment to determine if it would fullfill my needs without adding other test equipment. I am unsure if the unit fits my needs. I do have a HP8642 signal generator as well as other general test equipment. Is this unit what I need or does it have a shortcoming? Anyone using one currently? Thanks Tim KB2MFS
