Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re:building a repeater out of 2 Kenwood TK-830G's
BTW, here's a link to a web site done by a DC comm's lawyer. Yes, he has the 'disclaimers' not to use it as 'legal advice', but you can beturbut it's right. http://www.narrowbandinglaw.com/faqs.html It's the second last question. There is a link in the answer to the FCC order involved, but of course it's filled with typical legal-ese... One thing I am not sure about-I do remember now that there was a narrowband only version of the TK-x20 mobiles, along with a few other Kenwoods of that vintage-the model number had an 'N' on the end. I don't remember a TKR version, but there may have been. Those should of course be fine, because they started life NB. Also rx's are not an issue. Narrowbanding, say, an MII rx is fine, since the FCC doesn't care about rx's. It's only tx's that need to be properly type accepted. Jim Barbour Transcore On 3/20/2010 12:21 AM, wb6dgn wrote: Except for one thing-the x20 series radios weren't type accepted for narrowband, and the FCC has already said that if that's the case, it won't fly. The last time around, when a manufacturer wished to provide a narrow banding kit for a previously type accepted radio, they applied to the FCC for a supplemental type certificate (STC) covering the modification kit installed in the subject equipment. This STC number was attached to the radio ID plate in addition to or in place of the original type acceptance number. This kit was then dealer or service shop installed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. This then provided an updated type acceptance ID for that subject radio model series with the kit installed. It was not up to the user, nor the user's local radio shop to apply for this. This program and the rather extensive engineering data required was originated and and undertaken by the original equipment manufacturer BUT installed by a local radio repair facility. While receiver modifications were not required nor covered by the STC, they were also supplied in every case that I am aware of, as part of the narrow banding kit.
[Repeater-Builder] Re:building a repeater out of 2 Kenwood TK-830G's
By the way..any Kenwood radios that have the sufix G (as in TK-830G) are programmable for wide/narrow. The TK-830 is ONLY capable of wideband. That's the reason I choose the TK-830G. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, wd8chl wd8...@... wrote: BTW, here's a link to a web site done by a DC comm's lawyer. Yes, he has the 'disclaimers' not to use it as 'legal advice', but you can beturbut it's right. http://www.narrowbandinglaw.com/faqs.html It's the second last question. There is a link in the answer to the FCC order involved, but of course it's filled with typical legal-ese... One thing I am not sure about-I do remember now that there was a narrowband only version of the TK-x20 mobiles, along with a few other Kenwoods of that vintage-the model number had an 'N' on the end. I don't remember a TKR version, but there may have been. Those should of course be fine, because they started life NB. Also rx's are not an issue. Narrowbanding, say, an MII rx is fine, since the FCC doesn't care about rx's. It's only tx's that need to be properly type accepted. Jim Barbour Transcore On 3/20/2010 12:21 AM, wb6dgn wrote: Except for one thing-the x20 series radios weren't type accepted for narrowband, and the FCC has already said that if that's the case, it won't fly. The last time around, when a manufacturer wished to provide a narrow banding kit for a previously type accepted radio, they applied to the FCC for a supplemental type certificate (STC) covering the modification kit installed in the subject equipment. This STC number was attached to the radio ID plate in addition to or in place of the original type acceptance number. This kit was then dealer or service shop installed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. This then provided an updated type acceptance ID for that subject radio model series with the kit installed. It was not up to the user, nor the user's local radio shop to apply for this. This program and the rather extensive engineering data required was originated and and undertaken by the original equipment manufacturer BUT installed by a local radio repair facility. While receiver modifications were not required nor covered by the STC, they were also supplied in every case that I am aware of, as part of the narrow banding kit.
[Repeater-Builder] Re:building a repeater out of 2 Kenwood TK-830G's
Hello back, I've been in direct contact with the FCC regarding the legal operation of wide band type certified in narrow band service both before and after the narrow band mandate. The key issue seems to be the mention of any hardware modifications to the existing equipment, which are interpreted as a no-go, an answer I would expect when the majority of questions are submitted in a hardware modified context. However, no clear interpretation is given for equipment operation without physical hardware modifications. As an example a type accepted wide band transmitter already operating narrow band as originally installed and done so without and hardware or software modifications. For the sake of this thread, I don't include receiver operation, an example being an IF Crystal Filter kit change (IE not normally considered a transmitting device). So the only way to get a real-deal answer is to return to the FCC with an official inquiry... of which I have now completed and as submitted I/we should receive an official answer/reply within 3 business days. By hopefully asking the right questions without all the sidebar information, we can receive an honest interpretation direct from the horses mouth. cheers, s. wd8chl wd8...@... wrote: BTW, here's a link to a web site done by a DC comm's lawyer. Yes, he has the 'disclaimers' not to use it as 'legal advice', but you can beturbut it's right. http://www.narrowbandinglaw.com/faqs.html It's the second last question. There is a link in the answer to the FCC order involved, but of course it's filled with typical legal-ese... One thing I am not sure about-I do remember now that there was a narrowband only version of the TK-x20 mobiles, along with a few other Kenwoods of that vintage-the model number had an 'N' on the end. I don't remember a TKR version, but there may have been. Those should of course be fine, because they started life NB. Also rx's are not an issue. Narrowbanding, say, an MII rx is fine, since the FCC doesn't care about rx's. It's only tx's that need to be properly type accepted. Jim Barbour Transcore On 3/20/2010 12:21 AM, wb6dgn wrote: Except for one thing-the x20 series radios weren't type accepted for narrowband, and the FCC has already said that if that's the case, it won't fly. The last time around, when a manufacturer wished to provide a narrow banding kit for a previously type accepted radio, they applied to the FCC for a supplemental type certificate (STC) covering the modification kit installed in the subject equipment. This STC number was attached to the radio ID plate in addition to or in place of the original type acceptance number. This kit was then dealer or service shop installed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. This then provided an updated type acceptance ID for that subject radio model series with the kit installed. It was not up to the user, nor the user's local radio shop to apply for this. This program and the rather extensive engineering data required was originated and and undertaken by the original equipment manufacturer BUT installed by a local radio repair facility. While receiver modifications were not required nor covered by the STC, they were also supplied in every case that I am aware of, as part of the narrow banding kit.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re:building a repeater out of 2 Kenwood TK-830G's
On 3/22/2010 10:25 AM, briansoehl wrote: By the way..any Kenwood radios that have the sufix G (as in TK-830G) are programmable for wide/narrow. The TK-830 is ONLY capable of wideband. That's the reason I choose the TK-830G. Yeah-I remember getting a bunch of 350G's. That was right as the mandate to include NB kicked in. tnx!
[Repeater-Builder] Re:building a repeater out of 2 Kenwood TK-830G's
Except for one thing-the x20 series radios weren't type accepted for narrowband, and the FCC has already said that if that's the case, it won't fly. The last time around, when a manufacturer wished to provide a narrow banding kit for a previously type accepted radio, they applied to the FCC for a supplemental type certificate (STC) covering the modification kit installed in the subject equipment. This STC number was attached to the radio ID plate in addition to or in place of the original type acceptance number. This kit was then dealer or service shop installed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. This then provided an updated type acceptance ID for that subject radio model series with the kit installed. It was not up to the user, nor the user's local radio shop to apply for this. This program and the rather extensive engineering data required was originated and and undertaken by the original equipment manufacturer BUT installed by a local radio repair facility. While receiver modifications were not required nor covered by the STC, they were also supplied in every case that I am aware of, as part of the narrow banding kit. When Narrow Banding is officially jammed down our throats... I stock and sell the factory Narrow Band Kits for the TKR-720 and the TKR-820 Repeaters... Based on the above, if this is truly a factory kit, it would appear that Kenwood has, indeed, applied for the appropriate STC (or whatever it's called this time around) and has jumped through the appropriate FCC hoops to obtain the requisite approval. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, skipp025 skipp...@... wrote: wd8chl wd8chl@ wrote: Except for one thing-the x20 series radios weren't type accepted for narrowband, and the FCC has already said that if that's the case, it won't fly. Based on my direct in-person conversations with FCC Agents, simply reducing the transmit deviation to narrow band specifications doesn't violate the existing type acceptance and the resultant operation is in compliance with the narrow band rules. Doesn't really matter what receiver equipment changes were made. The same FCC Agents also acknowledge and the rules clearly state the emissions are the responsibility of the License Holder. I would expect and take the opinion that proper emission operation within legal narrow band standards using legacy type accepted land mobile equipment will not be a legality problem and have had that opinion confirmed more than once by FCC Agents, in fact once again last week at IWCE. Someone would have to send a unit in after the mods and get it re-certified for 12.5 (or 11.0) bandwidth. You can bet Kenwood ain't gonna do it. This only applies to Part 90 frequencies, btw. Parts 22, 80, 95, and 97 aren't affected. Sorry... Yeah, yeah.. based on my personal inquiries I expect the majority of people who get excited about Type Accepted legacy radio equipment properly operating narrow band will not be the FCC. I've never had nor would I expect an inspecting FCC Field Agent ask to see an equipment type acceptance cert/number. Being the responsible person as the License Holder I'm not going to now worry about a current type accepted transmitter now legally operating narrow band becoming illegal because it's not on an equipment list after a certain date. cheers, s. On 3/17/2010 12:06 PM, skipp025 wrote: 50 cent plug... When Narrow Banding is officially jammed down our throats... I stock and sell the factory Narrow Band Kits for the TKR-720 and the TKR-820 Repeaters...
[Repeater-Builder] Re:building a repeater out of 2 Kenwood TK-830G's
Re:building a repeater out of 2 Kenwood TK-830G's Why would you want to? Surplus Kenwood TKR-820 units are readily available for $300 and less. I have seen at least 30 sold in last 3 months on eBay. These purposes built units have the power supply, interface, BEEFY heat sinks for the TX RF transistors and sometimes even the UHF duplexer ! A few more talking points regarding the use of a TK-830 mobile RF Deck in Repeater Operation versus a TKR-820 The TKR-820 requires the use of the KPT-50 programmer, which not a lot of people have. I as a Kenwood Dealer happily sell them... but they are expensive unless you can find one used. In case you didn't notice... the TKR-820 Repeater RF Deck is also the TK-820 mobile radio mounted in a box. Portions of the circuit are of course different for the repeater but the chassis (heat sink) is pretty much the same animal. The normal internal Duplexer is just a flat-pack what a lot of people call a mobile style and having it inside the repeater chassis is not really a big deal. It's much better to replace the internal Duplexer with a more traditional full size BpBr unit, making the use of an external Preamp and RF Amplifier much more practical. Don't get me wrong... I have a fair number of TKR-720 and TKR-820 repeaters (and the TKB Base Stations) in operation. I'm just trying to toss out reasonable reasons why there is nothing wrong with making a repeater out of the TK-830/890 Mobile Radios and that running those radios at their rated output is normally not going to cause problems in most examples. In case some of you haven't noticed... many of the current desk top repeaters are pretty much mobile radios in a box, which is nothing new really. 50 cent plug... When Narrow Banding is officially jammed down our throats... I stock and sell the factory Narrow Band Kits for the TKR-720 and the TKR-820 Repeaters... that is all... Resume All-Skate, All Skate Slowly and Safe thanks cheers, skipp
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re:building a repeater out of 2 Kenwood TK-830G's
On 3/17/2010 12:06 PM, skipp025 wrote: 50 cent plug... When Narrow Banding is officially jammed down our throats... I stock and sell the factory Narrow Band Kits for the TKR-720 and the TKR-820 Repeaters... Except for one thing-the x20 series radios weren't type accepted for narrowband, and the FCC has already said that if that's the case, it won't fly. Someone would have to send a unit in after the mods and get it re-certified for 12.5 (or 11.0) bandwidth. You can bet Kenwood ain't gonna do it. This only applies to Part 90 frequencies, btw. Parts 22, 80, 95, and 97 aren't affected. Sorry...
[Repeater-Builder] Re:building a repeater out of 2 Kenwood TK-830G's
wd8chl wd8...@... wrote: Except for one thing-the x20 series radios weren't type accepted for narrowband, and the FCC has already said that if that's the case, it won't fly. Based on my direct in-person conversations with FCC Agents, simply reducing the transmit deviation to narrow band specifications doesn't violate the existing type acceptance and the resultant operation is in compliance with the narrow band rules. Doesn't really matter what receiver equipment changes were made. The same FCC Agents also acknowledge and the rules clearly state the emissions are the responsibility of the License Holder. I would expect and take the opinion that proper emission operation within legal narrow band standards using legacy type accepted land mobile equipment will not be a legality problem and have had that opinion confirmed more than once by FCC Agents, in fact once again last week at IWCE. Someone would have to send a unit in after the mods and get it re-certified for 12.5 (or 11.0) bandwidth. You can bet Kenwood ain't gonna do it. This only applies to Part 90 frequencies, btw. Parts 22, 80, 95, and 97 aren't affected. Sorry... Yeah, yeah.. based on my personal inquiries I expect the majority of people who get excited about Type Accepted legacy radio equipment properly operating narrow band will not be the FCC. I've never had nor would I expect an inspecting FCC Field Agent ask to see an equipment type acceptance cert/number. Being the responsible person as the License Holder I'm not going to now worry about a current type accepted transmitter now legally operating narrow band becoming illegal because it's not on an equipment list after a certain date. cheers, s. On 3/17/2010 12:06 PM, skipp025 wrote: 50 cent plug... When Narrow Banding is officially jammed down our throats... I stock and sell the factory Narrow Band Kits for the TKR-720 and the TKR-820 Repeaters...
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re:building a repeater out of 2 Kenwood TK-830G's
On 3/17/2010 2:45 PM, skipp025 wrote: wd8chlwd8...@... wrote: Except for one thing-the x20 series radios weren't type accepted for narrowband, and the FCC has already said that if that's the case, it won't fly. Based on my direct in-person conversations with FCC Agents, simply reducing the transmit deviation to narrow band specifications doesn't violate the existing type acceptance and the resultant operation is in compliance with the narrow band rules. Doesn't really matter what receiver equipment changes were made. The same FCC Agents also acknowledge and the rules clearly state the emissions are the responsibility of the License Holder. I would expect and take the opinion that proper emission operation within legal narrow band standards using legacy type accepted land mobile equipment will not be a legality problem and have had that opinion confirmed more than once by FCC Agents, in fact once again last week at IWCE. This would go contrary to the official document that went out from Washington a few months back that specifically said that equipment not certified for 12.5 KHz bandwidth for Part 90 will not be legal. We've actually gone down this path before here, so it should be in the archives somewhere It was mostly directed at MastrII's, Micor's, and MSF's. Those have definitely been pooh-pooh'ed. Yeah, yeah.. based on my personal inquiries I expect the majority of people who get excited about Type Accepted legacy radio equipment properly operating narrow band will not be the FCC. I wouldn't bet my license on it...
[Repeater-Builder] Re:building a repeater out of 2 Kenwood TK-830G's
Why would you want to? Surplus Kenwood TKR-820 units are readily available for $300 and less. I have seen at least 30 sold in last 3 months on eBay. These purposes built units have the power supply, interface, BEEFY heat sinks for the TX RF transistors and sometimes even the UHF duplexer ! I would keep those as mobile radios. w9gb
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re:building a repeater out of 2 Kenwood TK-830G's
I'll second Greg's observations about the TKR-820. I am using one as the primary repeater (exciter/driver) for my club's 440 machine in NE Illinois. It is a 25W station - turned down to about 7W to drive a 150W Crescend PA - and doesn't even really get warm at that power level. It's been in service for three years now without missing a beat. And yes, we are using external duplexers for this rather than the internal one. I think I have photos up on the R-B group site, in the photos section. Mark - N9WYS From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of Greg Beat Why would you want to? Surplus Kenwood TKR-820 units are readily available for $300 and less. I have seen at least 30 sold in last 3 months on eBay. These purposes built units have the power supply, interface, BEEFY heat sinks for the TX RF transistors and sometimes even the UHF duplexer ! I would keep those as mobile radios. w9gb
[Repeater-Builder] Re:building a repeater out of 2 Kenwood TK-830G's
Greg Beat gregory.b...@... wrote: Why would you want to? Surplus Kenwood TKR-820 units are readily available for $300 and less. I have seen at least 30 sold in last 3 months on eBay. These purposes built units have the power supply, interface, BEEFY heat sinks for the TX RF transistors and sometimes even the UHF duplexer ! I would keep those as mobile radios. w9gb Straight forward questions... straight forward answers. Because the TKR-820 has less power output. I also don't want to pay to heat a bunch of individual linear power supplies and much of what I do is off grid. And the antenna is a combiner system. s.
