Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
WB6FLY wrote: Actually, it's the other way around- sites with many linear power supplies almost always have a worse power factor than those with switchers. As I think about it more, I'm seeing that it depends on how the switching supplies are designed. In general terms, cheapest supplies have power factors farthest from one. Well-designed units (more expensive) would be closer to one. So my earlier generalization wasn't really fair. I wonder what will happen to our power systems as we add all these energy saving light bulbs with the absolute-minimum-parts-count switching supplies built-in? WG8S wrote: All electric utilities are concerned about electricity theft If you are adjusting your power factor back towards 1, I cannot imagine it would be any form of theft. It would be considered good practice! From the standpoint of having many devices all connecting to the power lines, every load should be designed with a power factor close to one. Steve sbjohns...@aol.com http://www.wd8das.net/ Radio is your best entertainment value.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
Another quirk. Sixty plus years ago in England, power factor was not the main concern. Many of the domestic radio receivers were transformerless and used half-wave rectification to obtain D.C. for the tubes. A consequence was a fair dose of D.C. flowing in the street power mains. Gordon ZL1KL Tauranga N.Z.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
Like a bad penny, this urban legend just keeps coming back. Since a kWh meter, whether mechanical or electronic, measures only real power, the addition of a capacitor- which adds capacitive reactance- cannot affect real power. A residential customer will never see a reduction in the amount of real power measured by the meter after adding a capacitor. That said, some electronic meters can display and record reactive power and energy- but that is not real power. The same is not true for an industrial customer that has a large number of motors. A lightly-loaded induction motor will impose a low power factor on the electrical supply system, which then must supply the reactive currents when needed- even though those reactive currents are returned to the source later in the cycle. As a result, the utility must have larger substations and heavier conductors to handle such loads. To force industrial customers to raise their power factors, utilities impose a penalty for low power factors. Most power utilities want their industrial customers to have PF above 95%. So, in this unique case, adding capacitance downstream of the electric meter WILL reduce the power bill, but only because it reduces or eliminates the low PF penalty and not because it affects the kWh consumed. One of the reasons why this so-called energy saver sounds attractive is because the average Joe Citizen may think that he can measure power in an AC circuit by multiplying the voltage across the line by the current flowing through the line. That product is volt-amperes, not watts, and it will go down when a capacitor is added- if the power factor is not unity. The only way to correctly measure real power in watts is to use an instrument that incorporates a four-quadrant multiplier, which determines the instantaneous product of volts and amperes throughout each sine wave cycle. Although commercial wattmeters can cost hundreds of dollars, there is at least one device on the market, called the Kill-A-Watt which is marketed by several vendors for less than $25. I bought one of these devices, and was surprised to discover that its power readings were within 5% of those displayed on my digital wattmeter. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Kelsey Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 6:00 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill A while back, maybe a year or two ago, there was a discussion on here where a list member had success adding a capacitor to his electric service which reduced his bill. It was debated for a while. Anyway, I am wondering if the utility company ever came and replaced the spinning disk meters with electronic versions, and if so, what the outcome was. Could the original poster respond either here or privately? I just today had a similar discussion with another ham who tried essentially the same thing with no success - only his was a commercial model, so it cost him considerably more. Chuck WB2EDV
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
Like a bad penny, this urban legend just keeps coming back. -- Eric Lemmon. Yes, I agree. However, the post that I made (and started all of this again) didn't make claim as to whether the capacitor trick worked or didn't work. I feel that it has no impact, unless you are being billed for reactive demand, and most of us are not. I was simply trying to seek out an individual whom I believe posted about this here, some time ago. He insisted that his electric bill at, I believe, three repeater sites as well as his house, dropped considerably when he added a fixed value capacitor across the line. Again, I had serious doubts at the time, but he was adamant about it. Anyway, my recent post was to follow up on this guy. What triggered it was the fact that I just ran into a ham who had purchased one of the commercially available energy savers and was questioning it's performance (he didn't think it worked). I asked him if the utility meter was electronic or whether it was one of the old spinning disk units, to which he said electronic. I had posed the question about altering the PF to an electrical engineer that I know. He gave me all the engineering basis like I'd expected, but then added an interesting comment. He was uncertain if a spinning disk meter would remain accurate if the PF was forced way out of specification - he left that hint of doubt. He then said that he was certain that the newer, electronic meters would record accurately regardless of the PF. Now, the guy that was adamant about beating the system had indicated that in every one of his experiments the meter was the older spinning disk unit. I suspect that the utility company eventually came out and replaced the meters. The guy said that it made a big enough difference that the utility had contacted him about the drop in usage. So, maybe the guy was jerking me (us) around, or maybe the utility installed new meters and the savings went poof, or maybe the guy is sitting in jail, not able to respond. And maybe it was on a different Yahoo group and I'm experiencing brain fade. I certainly didn't intend to create all the hubbub. But I felt the need to jump back in and explain further. Chuck WB2EDV
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
And if the capacitor trick did work, would this not be theft? lh On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.comwrote: Like a bad penny, this urban legend just keeps coming back. -- Eric Lemmon. Yes, I agree. However, the post that I made (and started all of this again) didn't make claim as to whether the capacitor trick worked or didn't work. I feel that it has no impact, unless you are being billed for reactive demand, and most of us are not. I was simply trying to seek out an individual whom I believe posted about this here, some time ago. He insisted that his electric bill at, I believe, three repeater sites as well as his house, dropped considerably when he added a fixed value capacitor across the line. Again, I had serious doubts at the time, but he was adamant about it. Anyway, my recent post was to follow up on this guy. What triggered it was the fact that I just ran into a ham who had purchased one of the commercially available energy savers and was questioning it's performance (he didn't think it worked). I asked him if the utility meter was electronic or whether it was one of the old spinning disk units, to which he said electronic. I had posed the question about altering the PF to an electrical engineer that I know. He gave me all the engineering basis like I'd expected, but then added an interesting comment. He was uncertain if a spinning disk meter would remain accurate if the PF was forced way out of specification - he left that hint of doubt. He then said that he was certain that the newer, electronic meters would record accurately regardless of the PF. Now, the guy that was adamant about beating the system had indicated that in every one of his experiments the meter was the older spinning disk unit. I suspect that the utility company eventually came out and replaced the meters. The guy said that it made a big enough difference that the utility had contacted him about the drop in usage. So, maybe the guy was jerking me (us) around, or maybe the utility installed new meters and the savings went poof, or maybe the guy is sitting in jail, not able to respond. And maybe it was on a different Yahoo group and I'm experiencing brain fade. I certainly didn't intend to create all the hubbub. But I felt the need to jump back in and explain further. Chuck WB2EDV
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
Larry, No, it would not. As has already been noted, adding capacitance to the line does not affect kWh, which is the energy that does work and which you pay for. Indeed, if every customer on a grid were to achieve and maintain a unity PF, the utility would benefit by being able to defer the purchase and installation of capital equipment such as substations and uprated power distribution networks. The most obvious indicator that someone is stealing power is a sudden and large drop in the meter readings when the occupancy of the premises has not changed. The utility's Fraud Investigation Unit will likely install a test meter upstream on a pole or in a vault where the suspect customer cannot get to it, and compare the two meters. Power theft seldom goes undetected, and the punishment is severe. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Horlick Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 9:35 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill And if the capacitor trick did work, would this not be theft? lh snip
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
The answer is simple. The electric company refuses to provide service to that location. Or, installs a tamperproof cover over the meter, relocates the meter up on the pole, or installs a new electronic meter. They can also go by historical use data for that property and sue the customer for it. From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, August 22, 2010 12:11:38 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill Power theft seldom goes undetected, I'll agree. and the punishment is severe. Not always. I can cite where a customer drilled hole in electric meter glass to allow an object to be inserted to prevent disk from spinning. Case presented to district attorney. No prosecution. Same customer did same thing with water meter later on. Same result with district attorney - no prosecution. Go figure. Chuck WB2EDV Yahoo! Groups Links http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
Correct. That was the intended route should it happen again with said customer - terminate service. Period. After the electric incident, the water was already being estimated in favor of the utility because that account was showing as a stopped meter. Later discovered to be a tampered meter. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Bill Smith To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill The answer is simple. The electric company refuses to provide service to that location. Or, installs a tamperproof cover over the meter, relocates the meter up on the pole, or installs a new electronic meter. They can also go by historical use data for that property and sue the customer for it. --
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
Bill, A customer who causes physical (read, easily detected by the meter reader) damage to a meter is quite possibly deranged. A tamperproof cover will not deter some really creative power thieves who cut into the service conduit upstream of the meter and tap into the wires- often to feed a very heavy load such as an electrically-heated spa. I have seen pictures of such handiwork where the service mast was cut into at the attic level, so it was not visible to the meter reader. The thief was caught when the meter at the transformer suddenly did not match the sum of the residential meters. The denial of service is a last-ditch resort of any utility provider, since the County Health Inspector can declare the house to be uninhabitable and cause the residents to be evicted until service is restored and inspected. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Smith Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 10:25 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill The answer is simple. The electric company refuses to provide service to that location. Or, installs a tamperproof cover over the meter, relocates the meter up on the pole, or installs a new electronic meter. They can also go by historical use data for that property and sue the customer for it. From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, August 22, 2010 12:11:38 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill Power theft seldom goes undetected, I'll agree. and the punishment is severe. Not always. I can cite where a customer drilled hole in electric meter glass to allow an object to be inserted to prevent disk from spinning. Case presented to district attorney. No prosecution. Same customer did same thing with water meter later on. Same result with district attorney - no prosecution. Go figure. Chuck WB2EDV
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
Happens often from the small case to a large one...'Prosecutor Discretion' they choose which cases are prosecuted and which ones are not. Often for unexplained reasons or at least unexplained to me. Jim- WA9FPT - Original Message - From: Chuck Kelsey To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill Power theft seldom goes undetected, I'll agree. and the punishment is severe. Not always. I can cite where a customer drilled hole in electric meter glass to allow an object to be inserted to prevent disk from spinning. Case presented to district attorney. No prosecution. Same customer did same thing with water meter later on. Same result with district attorney - no prosecution. Go figure. Chuck WB2EDV
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
The utility I used to work for did a lot of testing on the get free electricity devices over the years. None worked unless the customer had PF issues, even then, it didn't do much. That simple spinning disk electric meter is surprisingly accurate and hard to fool. Bill From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, August 20, 2010 8:14:14 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill That's my take, but someone on here insisted otherwise based on testing he had done. I spoke with an electrical engineer who said the same thing, but then he wondered out loud if it could be possible if the power factor was shifted to an extreme with a spinning disk meter. He opined that an electronic meter wouldn't be fooled. Of course shifting the PF to an extreme would be a basis for utility company action. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Gary Schafer gascha...@comcast.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 9:06 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill You won't see any difference. The electric meter reads true power not VA. 73 Gary K4FMX -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Kelsey Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 8:00 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill A while back, maybe a year or two ago, there was a discussion on here where a list member had success adding a capacitor to his electric service which reduced his bill. It was debated for a while. Anyway, I am wondering if the utility company ever came and replaced the spinning disk meters with electronic versions, and if so, what the outcome was. Could the original poster respond either here or privately? I just today had a similar discussion with another ham who tried essentially the same thing with no success - only his was a commercial model, so it cost him considerably more. Chuck WB2EDV Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3084 - Release Date: 08/20/10 14:35:00 Yahoo! Groups Links http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
This is a reply to the power issue from a friend of mine: Yes, it's true. Heavy industry uses this technique to reduce their electrical utility costs. Steel production is an example. Some utility companies require that customers with large inductive loads use and pay for capacitor banks to correct the plant's power factor. The issue arises when large inductive loads are connected to the electrical grid. For example, a large horsepower electric motor presents two loads to the grid. One load is the energy consumed or dissipated in work. The other load is inductive. The inductive load stores electrical energy, does not dissipate it, and it is returned to the grid. It can't be helped. It is built into the design of electric motors. This is understandable. We understand that practical electric motor armatures are turned by a strong magnetic field. That magnetic field is produced by large inductors. As an electrical circuit, you can visualize the motor as a resistor in series with an inductor driven by a sine wave 60 Hz alternating voltage source (AC). On the positive half cycle voltage swing (0-180 degrees), electrical energy is dissipated in the load, the resistor. In the resistor the energy is dissipated in heat. In a motor, the energy is dissipated in work done. The inductor stores electrical energy on the positive half cycle then returns the energy to the grid on the negative half cycle (180-360 degrees). The resistor again draws and dissipates energy on the negative half cycle. In the electrical circuit analogy, if the inductor was zero Henrys and the Resistor was non zero Ohms, the Power Factor (PF) is defined as 1.0, or unity. This is a purely dissipative load. If the inductor was non zero Henrys and the Resistor was zero Ohms, the PF is defined as 0.0. This is a purely inductive load. In a practical circuit with some inductance, L, and some resistance, R, PF therefore varies between 0.0 and 1.0. For given values of L and R, PF can be measured or computed. The utility company sells the energy dissipated in a load. If PF = 1.0, the utility company sells all the energy it supplies. As PF decreases due to inductance, the load increasingly stores and returns larger amounts of energy to the utility company. The utility has to generate the additional power needed to charge the connected inductive loads, even if the energy is returned to the grid. The utility needs significantly more capacity and therefore greater investment and operating capital. Worse yet, the increased current flow causes more dissipative energy loss in the line resistance. This inefficiency is a measurable loss of money to the utility. Adding capacitance across and close to the load helps a lot. Briefly and simply, it works like this. The utility initially charges the capacitor. Then, when the inductive load draws current, the capacitor supplies it. When the inductor dumps its stored energy, the capacitor takes it and recharges. AC cycle after cycle the capacitor and inductor exchange stored energy. The utility company does not have to generate the additional energy. The load continues to dissipate energy on each half cycle, no change there. This is called Power Factor Correction. With PF correction, the utility supplies mostly dissipative energy and sees a PF approximately = 1.0. With the capacitance located close to the load, excessive line energy loss is eliminated too. You might have seen these capacitor banks on a utility pole outside a factory. Entrepreneurs have applied this industrial technology to the home. You can buy a franchise and sell PF correction as a retail consumer product. The franchise provides all the equipment and marketing materials. I have seen a franchise website with convincing evidence of a decrease in a utility bill. The utility company has to supply the electrical energy a home draws, whether the homeowner uses it all or not. The idea is that PF correction can reduce the load to nearly pure dissipation, reducing a homeowners utility bill. So, the technology works. Is is cost effective? It is for a large industrial load. Home installation requires labor of a licensed electrician, a capacitor bank, and wiring. This sounds expensive. Maybe it will pay off over a long period. It depends on how inductive a load your home presents. To me, there is a larger picture. We are in an era of energy conservation. PF correction for the home sounds to me like a stimulus for increased electrical energy consumption. PF correction controls your cost of increased consumption. A homeowner might install a bigger air conditioner, put an additional refrigerator in the basement or garage. Motors and transformers are inductive loads, presumably having some impact on PF. California has asked people to unplug the extra refrigerators in garages to conserve energy. Now the Energy Police are after us about Vampire Power - all those small
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
The guy did ok on the first part explaining how power factor works but fell down when it comes to the save money part. The utilities do not charge you extra or give you a break if you do or don't have any power factor correction. Unless you are an industrial customer. I have seen demonstrations at shows where the guy trying to sell consumers power factor correction devices had a motor and an ammeter showing current draw. He then switches in a capacitor and shows you how the current drops and shows you how volts times amps reduces the wattage used. Only problem is the electric meter doesn't care what the power factor is! So the utility will bill you the same amount if you use power factor correction or not in your home. The other thing involved if you are going to do power factor correction is that it needs to be done on EACH motor or inductive device. If you just hang a capacitor across the main power line of the proper size when all motors are running it will correct that. But when a motor or other inductive device is shut down and the capacitor is still across the line, now it will have a capacitive load rather than an inductive load. Same problem; capacitive current that is out of phase. You can hook a large AC capacitor across your power line and measure the current thru it. It may look like you are drawing a lot of power thru it but the meter will not see it. Yes it cost the utility more to generate that extra current whether it be capacitive or inductive but you don't pay for it. If the utility was really worried about it they would give incentives for high power factor equipment or they would bill you like they do in industry. We are small potatoes to them. Trying to sell power factor correction to home owners and small business' is a scam. You save nothing on your bill! 73 Gary K4FMX _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bon Hal Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 2:39 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill This is a reply to the power issue from a friend of mine: Yes, it's true. Heavy industry uses this technique to reduce their electrical utility costs. Steel production is an example. Some utility companies require that customers with large inductive loads use and pay for capacitor banks to correct the plant's power factor. The issue arises when large inductive loads are connected to the electrical grid. For example, a large horsepower electric motor presents two loads to the grid. One load is the energy consumed or dissipated in work. The other load is inductive. The inductive load stores electrical energy, does not dissipate it, and it is returned to the grid. It can't be helped. It is built into the design of electric motors. This is understandable. We understand that practical electric motor armatures are turned by a strong magnetic field. That magnetic field is produced by large inductors. As an electrical circuit, you can visualize the motor as a resistor in series with an inductor driven by a sine wave 60 Hz alternating voltage source (AC). On the positive half cycle voltage swing (0-180 degrees), electrical energy is dissipated in the load, the resistor. In the resistor the energy is dissipated in heat. In a motor, the energy is dissipated in work done. The inductor stores electrical energy on the positive half cycle then returns the energy to the grid on the negative half cycle (180-360 degrees). The resistor again draws and dissipates energy on the negative half cycle. In the electrical circuit analogy, if the inductor was zero Henrys and the Resistor was non zero Ohms, the Power Factor (PF) is defined as 1.0, or unity. This is a purely dissipative load. If the inductor was non zero Henrys and the Resistor was zero Ohms, the PF is defined as 0.0. This is a purely inductive load. In a practical circuit with some inductance, L, and some resistance, R, PF therefore varies between 0.0 and 1.0. For given values of L and R, PF can be measured or computed. The utility company sells the energy dissipated in a load. If PF = 1.0, the utility company sells all the energy it supplies. As PF decreases due to inductance, the load increasingly stores and returns larger amounts of energy to the utility company. The utility has to generate the additional power needed to charge the connected inductive loads, even if the energy is returned to the grid. The utility needs significantly more capacity and therefore greater investment and operating capital. Worse yet, the increased current flow causes more dissipative energy loss in the line resistance. This inefficiency is a measurable loss of money to the utility. Adding capacitance across and close to the load helps a lot. Briefly and simply, it works like this. The utility initially charges
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
Guess I should have done a message archive search. I didn't mean to start all this. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Gary Schafer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 5:17 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill The guy did ok on the first part explaining how power factor works but fell down when it comes to the save money part. The utilities do not charge you extra or give you a break if you do or don't have any power factor correction. Unless you are an industrial customer. I have seen demonstrations at shows where the guy trying to sell consumers power factor correction devices had a motor and an ammeter showing current draw. He then switches in a capacitor and shows you how the current drops and shows you how volts times amps reduces the wattage used. Only problem is the electric meter doesn't care what the power factor is! So the utility will bill you the same amount if you use power factor correction or not in your home. The other thing involved if you are going to do power factor correction is that it needs to be done on EACH motor or inductive device. If you just hang a capacitor across the main power line of the proper size when all motors are running it will correct that. But when a motor or other inductive device is shut down and the capacitor is still across the line, now it will have a capacitive load rather than an inductive load. Same problem; capacitive current that is out of phase. You can hook a large AC capacitor across your power line and measure the current thru it. It may look like you are drawing a lot of power thru it but the meter will not see it. Yes it cost the utility more to generate that extra current whether it be capacitive or inductive but you don't pay for it. If the utility was really worried about it they would give incentives for high power factor equipment or they would bill you like they do in industry. We are small potatoes to them. Trying to sell power factor correction to home owners and small business' is a scam. You save nothing on your bill! 73 Gary K4FMX
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
Well, I tried a search and came up empty. Maybe it was another group. Oh well. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Chuck Kelsey To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill Guess I should have done a message archive search. I didn't mean to start all this. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Gary Schafer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 5:17 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill The guy did ok on the first part explaining how power factor works but fell down when it comes to the save money part. The utilities do not charge you extra or give you a break if you do or don't have any power factor correction. Unless you are an industrial customer. SNIP
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
You won't see any difference. The electric meter reads true power not VA. 73 Gary K4FMX -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Kelsey Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 8:00 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill A while back, maybe a year or two ago, there was a discussion on here where a list member had success adding a capacitor to his electric service which reduced his bill. It was debated for a while. Anyway, I am wondering if the utility company ever came and replaced the spinning disk meters with electronic versions, and if so, what the outcome was. Could the original poster respond either here or privately? I just today had a similar discussion with another ham who tried essentially the same thing with no success - only his was a commercial model, so it cost him considerably more. Chuck WB2EDV Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
That's my take, but someone on here insisted otherwise based on testing he had done. I spoke with an electrical engineer who said the same thing, but then he wondered out loud if it could be possible if the power factor was shifted to an extreme with a spinning disk meter. He opined that an electronic meter wouldn't be fooled. Of course shifting the PF to an extreme would be a basis for utility company action. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Gary Schafer gascha...@comcast.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 9:06 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill You won't see any difference. The electric meter reads true power not VA. 73 Gary K4FMX -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Kelsey Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 8:00 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill A while back, maybe a year or two ago, there was a discussion on here where a list member had success adding a capacitor to his electric service which reduced his bill. It was debated for a while. Anyway, I am wondering if the utility company ever came and replaced the spinning disk meters with electronic versions, and if so, what the outcome was. Could the original poster respond either here or privately? I just today had a similar discussion with another ham who tried essentially the same thing with no success - only his was a commercial model, so it cost him considerably more. Chuck WB2EDV Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3084 - Release Date: 08/20/10 14:35:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
One company supplying power factor correction capacitors promotes their use on inductive loads only, where it might be a legitimate claim: http://www.greenenergycube.com/index.php?support-documentation 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: Chuck Kelsey To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 7:00 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill A while back, maybe a year or two ago, there was a discussion on here where a list member had success adding a capacitor to his electric service which reduced his bill. It was debated for a while. ...
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
True power (W or KW) is increased by poor PF and high apparent power (VA or KVA). The resulting increase in current demand raises the true power but the extra current is usually lost as heat instead of performing work. The bigger problem (bigger than an inflated utility bill) is the potential for fire from drawing too much current through a branch circuit that can't handle the highly reactive load that's been connected to it. Also beware of cyclical reactive loads on panels that also feed electronics. I recently troubleshot a commercial 3 phase panelboard feeding both UPS's and across-the-line HVAC gear (a bad combination). The UPS's were failing and the owner didn't know why. A quick power quality analysis showed it was due to excessive UPS transfers caused by the HVAC cycling during the daytime and causing the UPS's to see voltage dips. Average PF was .67 when we started, .91 when we moved the HVAC away from the panel and did some load balancing. Gary N6LRV -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Kelsey Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 6:14 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill That's my take, but someone on here insisted otherwise based on testing he had done. I spoke with an electrical engineer who said the same thing, but then he wondered out loud if it could be possible if the power factor was shifted to an extreme with a spinning disk meter. He opined that an electronic meter wouldn't be fooled. Of course shifting the PF to an extreme would be a basis for utility company action. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Gary Schafer gascha...@comcast.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 9:06 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill You won't see any difference. The electric meter reads true power not VA. 73 Gary K4FMX -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Kelsey Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 8:00 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill A while back, maybe a year or two ago, there was a discussion on here where a list member had success adding a capacitor to his electric service which reduced his bill. It was debated for a while. Anyway, I am wondering if the utility company ever came and replaced the spinning disk meters with electronic versions, and if so, what the outcome was. Could the original poster respond either here or privately? I just today had a similar discussion with another ham who tried essentially the same thing with no success - only his was a commercial model, so it cost him considerably more. Chuck WB2EDV Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3084 - Release Date: 08/20/10 14:35:00 Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
Bill: Check this out. Is It possible that the device might actually reduce electrical usage? Hal - Original Message - From: Paul Plack To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill One company supplying power factor correction capacitors promotes their use on inductive loads only, where it might be a legitimate claim: http://www.greenenergycube.com/index.php?support-documentation 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: Chuck Kelsey To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 7:00 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill A while back, maybe a year or two ago, there was a discussion on here where a list member had success adding a capacitor to his electric service which reduced his bill. It was debated for a while. ...
