RE: len0x: apps settings.c,1.310,1.311
I don't see how this is relevant. Users are most often not skilled nor trained to make educated decisions on how the software should be done or work. They whine and request, sure, but we must take decisions on how the software should work because we see things in a wider perspective. At least we should, IMHO. I see that you're not working in the software industry. If I told my customers that they are not skilled nor trained to make educated decisions on how the software should be done or work they would laugh in my face! :) Users are not all that different apart from they haven't paid us and therefore we don't have to implement stuff for them (not because we don't want to, but because simply we don't have to and can use the time doing something else instead). Let me tell you what I enjoy in OS projects: making users happy. I'm probably one of the most selfless ppl in that respect. For instance I'm working on radio screen at the moment even though I never used radio and not planning to. (same goes for folder skip functionality on the main unit). I also enjoy being active member of the forum community because it gives users felling that you actually give a damn about what they want and they appreciate that. Having said that I agree that wider perspective is important, but mainly when it comes to consistent behaviour and general source code structure. But if we start discussing things like: what should be default behaviour, how should we phrase it, what icon should we use etc. - then I think we should leave it to the end user because we're doing it for him... Seriously. You think every single developer should just commit whatever they think is right without discussing it with the rest? No, if I was committing serious change I would have posted here first. In the end - we're having a dicussion now and its not really a big deal to rollback the change (and I will have no problem with that). But there has to be a good reason for that (which I couldn't imagine before and therefore committed in the first place). No, it is not shaking. I'm stating my opinions and I do believe that this particular thing (from where you extracted that quote) is a mess and I am very firmly against it. Sure, but unlike Linus you didn't really explained why... You are entitled to consider my opinions wrong, bad or totally crazy. They're still mine. I respect that. But I just wanted to know if we can do things that not everyone agrees with. The total number of developers is quite high, so always there bound to be someone who doesn't agree. What do we do then? Best wishes, Anton.
RE: len0x: apps settings.c,1.310,1.311
On Fri, 4 Nov 2005, Anton Oleynikov wrote: I see that you're not working in the software industry. You see that? Wow. How perceptive of you. But if we start discussing things like: what should be default behaviour, how should we phrase it, what icon should we use etc. - then I think we should leave it to the end user because we're doing it for him... Then we simply disagree on this. Besides, knowing what users want is not very easy and I just cannot imagine a system where we decide on things based on some kind of guess what users want. No. We are developers, we discuss things, we decide things. We are users too. In the end - we're having a dicussion now and its not really a big deal to rollback the change (and I will have no problem with that). But there has to be a good reason for that I'm not saying everything must be debated and argued to death before something is committed. I was just so very surprised to see this commit as we've had this feature for AGES like this. Then you have CVS commit access only a few days and then you commit this. This alerted me and thus we have this conversation. But I just wanted to know if we can do things that not everyone agrees with. The total number of developers is quite high, so always there bound to be someone who doesn't agree. What do we do then? One way could be to attempt to discuss the matter first. To figure out the background and to understand the whole picture. -- Daniel Stenberg -- http://www.rockbox.org/ -- http://daniel.haxx.se/
Re: len0x: apps settings.c,1.310,1.311
Anton Oleynikov schrieb am Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:57:44 -: Usability if you use and like the feature yes, it certainly is NOT if you don't use it and aren't used to it. (Like for me.) Lest try to imagine this is not about existing users of RB. (because don't tell me you actually change all the options manually every time you load new firmware. what are cfg files for then?) So everything is fine: But your preferred options in your cfg-File. No need to change anything in the source. Tschüß -- Thomas Heuving
Re: len0x: apps settings.c,1.310,1.311
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. --Bertrand Russell I couldn't agree more. I have so many doubts in my life that I prefer keep them to myself :) Good move insulting all developers in one shot. Hm, all I can say if someone felt this way then I'm sorry, but I can hardly imagine why would anyone apart from Daniel take this personally... The reason you can not listen to the users is known to everyone who's ever dealt with more than one: They never agree. For every user wanting a certain change, there is one who protests it. That's why it's up to us developers to think about what we are doing, discuss it, and always have a good reason for changing things. Someone wanted it is never a good reason. There is *some* truth in all this but in reality you can actually maintain balance between trying to satisfy as many users as you can and still sticking to a certain concept. I know this because I have actually done it in the past and managed to keep vast majority of my hundred-thousands-user-base happy. Sometimes its hard and painful, but if you really want it - you can do it. Saying all users have different needs, so lets ignore them is simply washing your hands of the problem... Don't you have an ambition to make RB as successful and widespread as possible wilth millions of happy users worldwide? Best wishes, Anton. mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .
Re: Putting the user in the loop (Was Re: len0x: apps settings.c, 1.310, 1.311)
One better way would be to have polls on the rockbox site on these issues, with questions such as Do you have the 'Follow playlist' option set to yes? no?. Having a Wiki page for suggestions would be another, since several users could express their wills before they're turned into a poll I think that in the appropriate situation, polls can be a better indication of user preferences or expectations than discussions on the forum or mailing list. One example that comes to mind is the issue or whether the selector should be an inverse bar or an arrow. When the arrow was eliminated to recover some code space, there was some very vocal opposition on the forum. I conducted a poll of what selector people actually used: http://www.misticriver.net/showthread.php?t=28157 (Note: this poll was conducted on the Mistic River site, but I also posted a link to it on the Rockbox forum.) As it turns out, the opposition to elimination of the arrow selector came from a small (less than 10% of over 100 respondents) but very vocal minority. I think that Linus or Daniel ultimately decided to restore the arrow selector as an option, but to make the inverse bar the default. Had that decision been made based only on the comments posted on the forum--which tended to come from the disgruntled minority rather than the happy majority--they would have reached the wrong decision about what the real user preference was. I don't think that every single decision requires a vote of the users. But in situations where the question is one of user preferences or user ergonomics, polls can be useful.
Re: Putting the user in the loop
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very good suggestion. Somehow I don't feel this will get accepted amongst current developers though... You really are one confrontational person, aren't you? What are your goals here? Make Rockbox better or pick on the developers? Linus
Re: Putting the user in the loop
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and one of the most important principles you learn is to put the user in the loop when you do interface design. I so happy I'm not alone in this! One better way would be to have polls on the rockbox site on these issues, with questions such as Do you have the 'Follow playlist' option set to yes? no?. Very good suggestion. Somehow I don't feel this will get accepted amongst current developers though... None of the developers in this thread have said let's ignore the views of users. The point made has simply been that developers should make the final decision. Note that that is developers (plural), not a single individual. That's how Rockbox has always worked - no single person is in charge. As has been mentioned elsewhere, there are sometimes good reasons (e.g. accessibility by blind users) why certain unpopular options are chosen to be the default Rockbox behaviour. And please don't forget that Rockbox is a multi-platform firmware The discussion you referred to at the start of this discussion took place on a user forum dedicated to a single target - hardly the best place to gather the views of the majority of your users. Dave.
Re: len0x: apps settings.c,1.310,1.311
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hm, all I can say if someone felt this way then I'm sorry, but I can hardly imagine why would anyone apart from Daniel take this personally... Pehaps because you act like many other newcomers, stepping into the room boasting big words with little backing. Please drop the condescending tone and adopt a little humility. This is a team, try acting like a team player. Don't you have an ambition to make RB as successful and widespread as possible wilth millions of happy users worldwide? Certainly not. Popularity is far down the list of priorities for most open source projects, including Rockbox. Performance and reliability are usually at the top, with extensibility often coming in third. If you want mass-market appeal, flashy user-centric design and crappy performance, get an iPod. If you instead want to help improve Rockbox, please sit down and participate in the teamwork. -- Björn
