RE: len0x: apps settings.c,1.310,1.311
I don't see how this is relevant. Users are most often not skilled nor trained to make educated decisions on how the software should be done or work. They whine and request, sure, but we must take decisions on how the software should work because we see things in a wider perspective. At least we should, IMHO. I see that you're not working in the software industry. If I told my customers that they are not skilled nor trained to make educated decisions on how the software should be done or work they would laugh in my face! :) Users are not all that different apart from they haven't paid us and therefore we don't have to implement stuff for them (not because we don't want to, but because simply we don't have to and can use the time doing something else instead). Let me tell you what I enjoy in OS projects: making users happy. I'm probably one of the most selfless ppl in that respect. For instance I'm working on radio screen at the moment even though I never used radio and not planning to. (same goes for folder skip functionality on the main unit). I also enjoy being active member of the forum community because it gives users felling that you actually give a damn about what they want and they appreciate that. Having said that I agree that wider perspective is important, but mainly when it comes to consistent behaviour and general source code structure. But if we start discussing things like: what should be default behaviour, how should we phrase it, what icon should we use etc. - then I think we should leave it to the end user because we're doing it for him... Seriously. You think every single developer should just commit whatever they think is right without discussing it with the rest? No, if I was committing serious change I would have posted here first. In the end - we're having a dicussion now and its not really a big deal to rollback the change (and I will have no problem with that). But there has to be a good reason for that (which I couldn't imagine before and therefore committed in the first place). No, it is not shaking. I'm stating my opinions and I do believe that this particular thing (from where you extracted that quote) is a mess and I am very firmly against it. Sure, but unlike Linus you didn't really explained why... You are entitled to consider my opinions wrong, bad or totally crazy. They're still mine. I respect that. But I just wanted to know if we can do things that not everyone agrees with. The total number of developers is quite high, so always there bound to be someone who doesn't agree. What do we do then? Best wishes, Anton.
RE: len0x: apps settings.c,1.310,1.311
On Fri, 4 Nov 2005, Anton Oleynikov wrote: I see that you're not working in the software industry. You see that? Wow. How perceptive of you. But if we start discussing things like: what should be default behaviour, how should we phrase it, what icon should we use etc. - then I think we should leave it to the end user because we're doing it for him... Then we simply disagree on this. Besides, knowing what users want is not very easy and I just cannot imagine a system where we decide on things based on some kind of guess what users want. No. We are developers, we discuss things, we decide things. We are users too. In the end - we're having a dicussion now and its not really a big deal to rollback the change (and I will have no problem with that). But there has to be a good reason for that I'm not saying everything must be debated and argued to death before something is committed. I was just so very surprised to see this commit as we've had this feature for AGES like this. Then you have CVS commit access only a few days and then you commit this. This alerted me and thus we have this conversation. But I just wanted to know if we can do things that not everyone agrees with. The total number of developers is quite high, so always there bound to be someone who doesn't agree. What do we do then? One way could be to attempt to discuss the matter first. To figure out the background and to understand the whole picture. -- Daniel Stenberg -- http://www.rockbox.org/ -- http://daniel.haxx.se/
Re: len0x: apps settings.c,1.310,1.311
Anton Oleynikov schrieb am Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:57:44 -: Usability if you use and like the feature yes, it certainly is NOT if you don't use it and aren't used to it. (Like for me.) Lest try to imagine this is not about existing users of RB. (because don't tell me you actually change all the options manually every time you load new firmware. what are cfg files for then?) So everything is fine: But your preferred options in your cfg-File. No need to change anything in the source. Tschüß -- Thomas Heuving
Re: len0x: apps settings.c,1.310,1.311
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. --Bertrand Russell I couldn't agree more. I have so many doubts in my life that I prefer keep them to myself :) Good move insulting all developers in one shot. Hm, all I can say if someone felt this way then I'm sorry, but I can hardly imagine why would anyone apart from Daniel take this personally... The reason you can not listen to the users is known to everyone who's ever dealt with more than one: They never agree. For every user wanting a certain change, there is one who protests it. That's why it's up to us developers to think about what we are doing, discuss it, and always have a good reason for changing things. Someone wanted it is never a good reason. There is *some* truth in all this but in reality you can actually maintain balance between trying to satisfy as many users as you can and still sticking to a certain concept. I know this because I have actually done it in the past and managed to keep vast majority of my hundred-thousands-user-base happy. Sometimes its hard and painful, but if you really want it - you can do it. Saying all users have different needs, so lets ignore them is simply washing your hands of the problem... Don't you have an ambition to make RB as successful and widespread as possible wilth millions of happy users worldwide? Best wishes, Anton. mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .
Re: len0x: apps settings.c,1.310,1.311
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hm, all I can say if someone felt this way then I'm sorry, but I can hardly imagine why would anyone apart from Daniel take this personally... Pehaps because you act like many other newcomers, stepping into the room boasting big words with little backing. Please drop the condescending tone and adopt a little humility. This is a team, try acting like a team player. Don't you have an ambition to make RB as successful and widespread as possible wilth millions of happy users worldwide? Certainly not. Popularity is far down the list of priorities for most open source projects, including Rockbox. Performance and reliability are usually at the top, with extensibility often coming in third. If you want mass-market appeal, flashy user-centric design and crappy performance, get an iPod. If you instead want to help improve Rockbox, please sit down and participate in the teamwork. -- Björn
RE: len0x: apps settings.c,1.310,1.311
http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=1712.0 just usability improvement... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Daniel Stenberg Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:43 PM To: Rockbox Development Subject: Re: len0x: apps settings.c,1.310,1.311 On Thu, 3 Nov 2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: default for Follow playlist option is set to yes Really? I've not seen _any_ discussions about this change. -- Daniel Stenberg -- http://www.rockbox.org/ -- http://daniel.haxx.se/
RE: len0x: apps settings.c,1.310,1.311
On Thu, 3 Nov 2005, Anton Oleynikov wrote: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=1712.0 That is about three *users* supporting this move. just usability improvement... Usability if you use and like the feature yes, it certainly is NOT if you don't use it and aren't used to it. (Like for me.) IMHO, we must not run ahead and patch things in Rockbox just because there's a bunch of users in a forum somewhere screaming for it. Rockbox is made and designed by developers. *We* should discuss and decide on what to do. And one of the main reasons we started this *dev list is so that we can bring back the good old mailing list developer discussions. -- Daniel Stenberg -- http://www.rockbox.org/ -- http://daniel.haxx.se/
