RE: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
$25 each. used, no manuals. 10base2, 7 port. parramatta rd pc market. Uh huh. Theres probably not much point getting a 10Base2 repeater unless you run a very large (geographically) site. You're probably running 10BaseT anyway - stop being so tight and fork out the $50 ;) I saw 8 port 10/100 Mototech switches for $200 at the PC show... I have one of those (from the back of a truck), it works very nicely. Is that a typical street price nowadays for a small switch? Does anyone know a good source for a 24 port version? most of my stuff is 10base2. 10baseT is expensive. if it can ping with no more than 50% packet loss, i should be right :) - but that's what the repeater is for :) -- SLUG - Sydney Linux Users Group Mailing List - http://www.slug.org.au To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe in the text
RE: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
On Sun, 4 Jun 2000, Visser, Martin (SNO) wrote: A "hub" is just a repeater with lots of ports. A repeater regenerates the incoming EThernet signal and forwards it out all ports. (This is different from a bridge/switch which makes some smart decisions about which ports to forward traffic on). Simple 2 port repeaters traditionally were used changed media, eg from AUI (Thick ethernet) to fibre, and to extend the length of an ethernet segment. Does anybody know where to acquire cheap repeaters? Solar powered weather proofed would be a bonus *grins* Seems a little silly that 5 port hubs are like $50, so I what should I pay for a repeater? I wouldn't want to pay more than $20 honestly. Andrew. -- SecretSydneyNet - A project to bring the community together through new technologies. http://www.secret.com.au/sydney/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux Users Group Mailing List - http://www.slug.org.au To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe in the text
RE: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
Does anybody know where to acquire cheap repeaters? Solar powered weather proofed would be a bonus *grins* Seems a little silly that 5 port hubs are like $50, so I what should I pay for a repeater? I wouldn't want to pay more than $20 honestly. $25 each. used, no manuals. 10base2, 7 port. parramatta rd pc market. Uh huh. Theres probably not much point getting a 10Base2 repeater unless you run a very large (geographically) site. You're probably running 10BaseT anyway - stop being so tight and fork out the $50 ;) I saw 8 port 10/100 Mototech switches for $200 at the PC show... I have one of those (from the back of a truck), it works very nicely. Is that a typical street price nowadays for a small switch? Does anyone know a good source for a 24 port version? Cheers! Marty -- SLUG - Sydney Linux Users Group Mailing List - http://www.slug.org.au To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe in the text
RE: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
The bonus job of a repeater is also that it can extend the network limit of 100 metres by rebroadcasting the packets onto the other network. Similar to a linux box with 2 network cards and a route between the two. The drawback is there are alot more chances of getting collisions and the delays are larger due to the retransmission.. but really you don't notice it. We have one here that has 3 ports and hopefully we're getting rid of it and changing to a switch. thanks, George Vieira Network Administrator Citadel Computer Systems P/L http://www.citadelcomputer.com.au -Original Message- From: Andrew Macks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, 4 June 2000 10:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ## On Sun, 4 Jun 2000, Visser, Martin (SNO) wrote: A "hub" is just a repeater with lots of ports. A repeater regenerates the incoming EThernet signal and forwards it out all ports. (This is different from a bridge/switch which makes some smart decisions about which ports to forward traffic on). Simple 2 port repeaters traditionally were used changed media, eg from AUI (Thick ethernet) to fibre, and to extend the length of an ethernet segment. Does anybody know where to acquire cheap repeaters? Solar powered weather proofed would be a bonus *grins* Seems a little silly that 5 port hubs are like $50, so I what should I pay for a repeater? I wouldn't want to pay more than $20 honestly. Andrew. -- SecretSydneyNet - A project to bring the community together through new technologies. http://www.secret.com.au/sydney/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux Users Group Mailing List - http://www.slug.org.au To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe in the text -- SLUG - Sydney Linux Users Group Mailing List - http://www.slug.org.au To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe in the text
RE: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, George Vieira wrote:
The bonus job of a repeater is also that it can extend the network limit of
100 metres by rebroadcasting the packets onto the other network. Similar to
a linux box with 2 network cards and a route between the two.
The drawback is there are alot more chances of getting collisions and the
delays are larger due to the retransmission.. but really you don't notice
it.
Absolute bollux.
You can extend your network using hubs as well - as long as you apply the
5-4-3 rule to the total segment length and number of repeaters.
As far as collisions go - there's the same chance using a hub as there is
using a repeater - which is entirely network traffic dependant. The only
devices which will reduce your level of collisions are routers
{overkill!}, and switches.
DaZZa
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Re: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
George Vieira wrote:
We have one here that has 3 ports and hopefully we're getting rid of it and
changing to a switch.
Donations to the SLUG networking Kit are always welcome.
I'll collect old NW kit either on behalf of SLUG, or whatever.
The idea being to have it avaialble for fests and for sluggers to play
with to learn a bit of the old stuff.
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Re: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
DaZZa wrote: You can extend your network using hubs as well - as long as you apply the 5-4-3 rule to the total segment length and number of repeaters. Okay, what's the 5-4-3 rule? -- SLUG - Sydney Linux Users Group Mailing List - http://www.slug.org.au To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe in the text
RE: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
http://www.helmig.com/j_helmig/netrule.htm Okay, what's the 5-4-3 rule? go google -- SLUG - Sydney Linux Users Group Mailing List - http://www.slug.org.au To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe in the text
Re: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Ben Donohue wrote:
You can extend your network using hubs as well - as long as you apply the
5-4-3 rule to the total segment length and number of repeaters.
Okay, what's the 5-4-3 rule?
{groans} I knew someone'd ask me that.
It goes something like you can extend your maximum network cable length by
extending it across 5 hubs with 4 segments and any 3 of those segments
being populated {I.E. having nodes on them}.
In other words, you can use either hubs or repeaters to make your maximum
network length extend from 100 metres {for 10BaseT} to 500 metres in this
kind of diagram.
[PC_NODE]
|
| 100 metres of cable
[HUB]
|
| 100 metres of cable
[HUB]
|
|---[PC_NODE]
| 100 metres of cable
|
[HUB]
|
| 100 metres of cable
[HUB]
|
| 100 metres of cable
[PC_NODE]
Notice that only three of the segments are populated {the first, the one
in the middle and the last}, and that there are only 4 segments in the
middle of the network. Note that this is ALL the same network - in other
words, all devices connected to it are in the 192.168.1.x address range -
there is no routing happening.
The drawing is crappy, I know, but it should demonstrate the general
principle.
It's been 10 years since I've bothered with it, so this might not be exact
anymore - I'd have to dig out my reference manuals to find the exact
definitions. I'm working from a very hazy memory here, because most of the
projects I work on either use routers {which invalidate the rules by
changing things to different segments}, or which are designed so you don't
need that much length on any one cable run.
DaZZa
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RE: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
I was told that the cable length limit was the longest 2 cable ends from
point to point. So if you had 30 cables plugged into a hub and the longest
cable was 80 meters and the second longest was 50 then you would have gone
over the limit length by 10 metres right??? Makes sense in a way but doesn't
make sense or may not apply to your diagram...
As it is effectively one network, you have 500 meters there from node 1 to
node 2
What's the go?
thanks,
George Vieira
Network Administrator
Citadel Computer Systems P/L
http://www.citadelcomputer.com.au
-Original Message-
From: DaZZa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, 5 June 2000 12:33 PM
To: Ben Donohue
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Ben Donohue wrote:
You can extend your network using hubs as well - as long as you apply
the
5-4-3 rule to the total segment length and number of repeaters.
Okay, what's the 5-4-3 rule?
{groans} I knew someone'd ask me that.
It goes something like you can extend your maximum network cable length by
extending it across 5 hubs with 4 segments and any 3 of those segments
being populated {I.E. having nodes on them}.
In other words, you can use either hubs or repeaters to make your maximum
network length extend from 100 metres {for 10BaseT} to 500 metres in this
kind of diagram.
[PC_NODE]
|
| 100 metres of cable
[HUB]
|
| 100 metres of cable
[HUB]
|
|---[PC_NODE]
| 100 metres of cable
|
[HUB]
|
| 100 metres of cable
[HUB]
|
| 100 metres of cable
[PC_NODE]
Notice that only three of the segments are populated {the first, the one
in the middle and the last}, and that there are only 4 segments in the
middle of the network. Note that this is ALL the same network - in other
words, all devices connected to it are in the 192.168.1.x address range -
there is no routing happening.
The drawing is crappy, I know, but it should demonstrate the general
principle.
It's been 10 years since I've bothered with it, so this might not be exact
anymore - I'd have to dig out my reference manuals to find the exact
definitions. I'm working from a very hazy memory here, because most of the
projects I work on either use routers {which invalidate the rules by
changing things to different segments}, or which are designed so you don't
need that much length on any one cable run.
DaZZa
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Re: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
Of course - I've *never* seen a network set up like this. Heck, I've only met two people who've ever heard of the 5-4-3-2-1 rule in my life. Not eaxctly sure who wrote that, was it you Terry? Anway whoever it was, *you gota get out more man*! And when you do, don't talk about the weather or current affairs, make sure you stick to protocols and distribution religions. Sheesh, even my 3 year old knows the 5-4-3-2-1 rule, you gotta yell *zero, blast off* at the end! Rodos grin -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The first step in fixing a broken program is getting Camion Technology | it to fail repeatably. [Tom Duff, Bell Labs] +61 2 9873 5105 | -- SLUG - Sydney Linux Users Group Mailing List - http://www.slug.org.au To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe in the text
RE: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
At 09:37 AM 6/5/00 +1000, DaZZa wrote:
As far as collisions go - there's the same chance using a hub as there is
using a repeater - which is entirely network traffic dependant. The only
devices which will reduce your level of collisions are routers
{overkill!}, and switches.
and bridges.
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Re: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, DaZZa wrote:
In other words, you can use either hubs or repeaters to make your maximum
network length extend from 100 metres {for 10BaseT} to 500 metres in this
kind of diagram.
Just curiously, but has anybody played around with 10BaseT cable runs of
more than 100 metres and measured the loss?
I want to know how far I can go *without* needing a repeater.
Andrew.
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RE: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Alexander Else wrote:
At 09:37 AM 6/5/00 +1000, DaZZa wrote:
As far as collisions go - there's the same chance using a hub as there is
using a repeater - which is entirely network traffic dependant. The only
devices which will reduce your level of collisions are routers
{overkill!}, and switches.
and bridges.
Nope. bridges are just repeaters which have media converters in them - in
other words, they rebroadcast anything they receive straight out the other
port.
DaZZa
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Re: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Andrew Macks wrote:
In other words, you can use either hubs or repeaters to make your maximum
network length extend from 100 metres {for 10BaseT} to 500 metres in this
kind of diagram.
Just curiously, but has anybody played around with 10BaseT cable runs of
more than 100 metres and measured the loss?
I want to know how far I can go *without* needing a repeater.
Not on 10BaseT, no. But it's not much [1] beyond the 100 metre limit -
especially with UTP as opposed to STP.
I pushed a coax run to 227 metres once upon a time - but the cards which
supported it were as expensive as hell. Specific circumstances - it worked
at the time.
DaZZa
[1] Definie "not much" as less than 15 metres, from memory.
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Re: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
I have had 10base2 up to 300 metres in the early days when the sparky who was brought in to run the cable didn't know what he was doing and thought "I'd better leave some slack in the roof space, just in case". It might have worked with power cables, but once the segment started to get loaded the collisions weren't being propgated fast enough so down the network went. I put a TDR onto the segment and swore never to employ that sparky again. Howard. __ LANNet Computing Associates http://www.lannet.com.au On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, DaZZa wrote: I pushed a coax run to 227 metres once upon a time - but the cards which supported it were as expensive as hell. Specific circumstances - it worked at the time. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux Users Group Mailing List - http://www.slug.org.au To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe in the text
RE: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
At 01:52 PM 6/5/00 +1000, DaZZa wrote: and bridges. Nope. bridges are just repeaters which have media converters in them - in other words, they rebroadcast anything they receive straight out the other port. DaZZa Sorry, going to have to contradict you again there. That would be a repeater. Bridges segment a network at the data link later. They can be used to physically break up a network and build a forwarding table of MAC addresses such that a broadcast to a particular address will only pass through the bridge to a particular network segment if a) the destination address is known to the bridge to be on that segment or b) the bridge doesn't know where the destination is, in which case it will forward the frame on to all network segments barring the originating port. This forwarding table is dynamically built, the bridge learns new destinations as it goes and adds these MAC addresses to this forwarding table. -- Alexander Else http://cyberchrist.org -- SLUG - Sydney Linux Users Group Mailing List - http://www.slug.org.au To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe in the text
RE: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
So he was partially right (as he was refering to 10baseT but only to the hub it matters and not PC to hub to PC. SO in other words you could run 2 PCs on a hub with a TOTAL length of 200 meters, 100 from PC to hub and another 100 from PC to hub, right? This makes alot more sense otherwise the worlds networks would be bl#dy damn small.. thanks, George Vieira Network Administrator Citadel Computer Systems P/L http://www.citadelcomputer.com.au -Original Message- From: DaZZa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, 5 June 2000 1:51 PM To: George Vieira Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ## On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, George Vieira wrote: I was told that the cable length limit was the longest 2 cable ends from point to point. So if you had 30 cables plugged into a hub and the longest cable was 80 meters and the second longest was 50 then you would have gone over the limit length by 10 metres right??? Makes sense in a way but doesn't make sense or may not apply to your diagram... As it is effectively one network, you have 500 meters there from node 1 to node 2 What's the go? You were told wrong. The maximum cable length is dependant on media type - 100 metres for 10BaseT, 185 metres for 10Base2, 500 metres for 10Base5 For 10Base2 and 10Base5, these lengths _include_ any taps or runs to connect nodes, because they are a bus type system. for 10BaseT, this length refers to the distance between any one node and its repeater/hub, or between ahy two cascaded hubs. DaZZa -- SLUG - Sydney Linux Users Group Mailing List - http://www.slug.org.au To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe in the text
RE: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, George Vieira wrote: So he was partially right (as he was refering to 10baseT but only to the hub it matters and not PC to hub to PC. SO in other words you could run 2 PCs on a hub with a TOTAL length of 200 meters, 100 from PC to hub and another 100 from PC to hub, right? This makes alot more sense otherwise the worlds networks would be bl#dy damn small.. Referring specifically to 10BaseT, and nothing else... You can run a _total_ cable length, including patch leads from your network wall point, of 100 metres from hub point to NIC _for each port on the hub_. So yes - you can run 1 PC 100 metres from the hub, and another PC 100 metres from the hub, and they'll work fine. DaZZa -- SLUG - Sydney Linux Users Group Mailing List - http://www.slug.org.au To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe in the text
RE: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Alexander Else wrote: Nope. bridges are just repeaters which have media converters in them - in other words, they rebroadcast anything they receive straight out the other port. Sorry, going to have to contradict you again there. That would be a repeater. Bridges segment a network at the data link later. They can be used to physically break up a network and build a forwarding table of MAC addresses such that a broadcast to a particular address will only pass through the bridge to a particular network segment if a) the destination address is known to the bridge to be on that segment or b) the bridge doesn't know where the destination is, in which case it will forward the frame on to all network segments barring the originating port. This forwarding table is dynamically built, the bridge learns new destinations as it goes and adds these MAC addresses to this forwarding table. And I'm going to disagree again. :-) A repeater connects similar media types, and repeats. A bridge conencts _dissimilar_ media types, and repeats. You're describing a switching farbric, using spanning tree and the like to me, not a bridge. My definition is much more old school. ;-) I've known it that way for 15 odd years, and I'm not gonna change just because somebody decides to use a funkier name. And this is _way_ off topic for here, so all else had better be taken to email instead of list mail. :-) DaZZa -- SLUG - Sydney Linux Users Group Mailing List - http://www.slug.org.au To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe in the text
Re: [SLUG] [OT] repeaters hubs ##
On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Howard Lowndes wrote:
I have had 10base2 up to 300 metres in the early days when the sparky who
was brought in to run the cable didn't know what he was doing and thought
"I'd better leave some slack in the roof space, just in case". It might
have worked with power cables, but once the segment started to get loaded
the collisions weren't being propgated fast enough so down the network
went. I put a TDR onto the segment and swore never to employ that sparky
again.
Ouch. That woulda been ugly!
The case where I got up to 227 metres was extremely specialised - two
workstations at one end, two at the other, seperate segment off the server
- grand total of 5 workstations. Oh, and the line drivers on the LAN cards
we used {stuffed if I can remember the brand now} were amazingly above
spec.
Collisions were extremely low, thankfully, or it'da never worked. When the
guy who replaced me tried to stick another 20(!) workstations at the other
end, despite being told not to, it all fell into a screaming heap.
DaZZa
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