Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Continuous TLUD for cooking
Hi, I want to second two important points that Ahn makes in regard to TLUDs. One is that even in a geographically small area in a relatively homogenous demographic there is a diversity of reasons for people to try an improved stove. No one stove can be expected to be all things to all people. In our project one thing we are learning is how important choice is to consumers. This is especially important with TLUDS, but I think applies equally to rocket stoves.. If you have different sizes of stoves and cook-top accessories, designed to go with the stoves, then you increase the cooks convenience and adoption. The other point is the batch aspect of TLUD stoves. It's not the limitation it is preceived to be. You can feed TLUDs more fuel and keep them going. I have done it for up to 3 hours. You can also used this approach to off set the limited turn down ratio. You have to feed it in a metered way. Cooks learn their stoves and adjust if the appliance is making their cooking experience better. You can do this with a rocket stove also, but again, you have to feed it. So really where is the difference in convenience? Art Donnelly -- Art Donnelly President SeaChar.Org US Director, The Farm Stove Project Proyecto Estufa Finca http://email2.globalgiving.org/wf/click?c=1Oy%2FmZbgIyjS5WI580KXwShvfKBcF2eaJvtN7Pi6p7Jl%2FiR4938EMMCBwY%2FuYALeA%2BQYUWN4RpvnxBsBC7e2%2BGIHcONTozBmvsUU5LTL%2FTNk4Q3vxE%2BKdXTV2cxIsFplSPh%2F9nMG3bQMQf4bz9ZK9SHMy46Z8OPLAtMAnPG9SKkPuLCWvofBTLC%2BImqax%2BZTkkF2RvDri5UdgH19NHjHOBj5WMUrS4L62Z2xxUJbBsJdDUOfeifheNFXH546Xm0yul4P2stm%2FTUOJxYnI0nFjXEaYfzxDSc%2FwgqVkR1t0USDHk30%2Fgt9UpDpyzLj37HWtnNQ0q8Jh1gZCkB4Y1Fgbg394gYFkyNqFN4MchxO2Js%3Drp=wrhiOr2wAxUyDMDlMSqbOkKa0FpPoiCSHffb%2ByfHGClRxIFjEIrUDwAF%2BFD%2BpAPuvam9BDwvSMcadhFv7aFwKoyAXYrFk00%2B92xPIeMHXaTDJ3x0VIj6ZYwjm1win65oup=YDTqBOjidbCUo%2Far1oAtZjp5ji73zPEvmoO14mevuXzIDUdb6Ac9W13SPOXmzL5NflZkH0HxLp0v4dT9UwEHDV0wSZ1qusv09bIKkUliWs4%3Du=LHuflw_1TAib_lgCu2JvQw%2Fh0 SeaChar.Org...positive tools for carbon negative living ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Continuous TLUD for cooking
Hello Ronal, Just to add; from experience the four selling points for TLUD stoves are; 1. Time and fuel saving (cook faster, with much less biomass) 2. Use a wide variety of biomass (this has issues with chopping wood especially for rural Uganda) 3. Makes Charcoal that can be re-used in another charcoal stove or as biochar 4. Clean (less smoke aka toxins - but they dont really understand emissions) These are clear for potential users when we do a demo in villages. Nolbert. 2014-01-29, Ronal W. Larson rongretlar...@comcast.net: Antony - with eleven ccs 1. First note nice help offered by Alan Cave in several messages yesterday. They did not include your original request below. I agree with his remark that the continuous Belonio stoves that you found at Paul Anderson's sites are down draft (BLDD) - and that may be the best way to go. At the recent ETHOS conference I do not recall this topic coming up. (I wrote 3-pager on that conference - available at the stoves site.) The reason is the strong emphasis on stoves that cost $10-$20 - and I doubt we can ever see continuous feed stoves in that price range. I talked to Dr. Belonio a good bit over the last weekend, but this topic did not come up. I include Alexis as a cc, as he is probably the best expert on this topic we have. 2. I include the stoves list, because there is apt to be more expertise there on your stove question than on the Biochar-production list. Tom Miles added because he manages both lists and will have valuable thoughts. 3. I Include Jerry Whitfield, Jock Gill, Alex English, and Marc Pare as they have all written on continuous feed char-makers; but none I think for stoves. These are probably all horizontal feed (augers, moving grates, etc.). See http://www.whitfieldbiochar.com (that is apparently in a hold mode). Apologies to anyone I inadvertently left out who has been thinking of continuous-feed stoves. 4. I include Dean Still and Ranyee Chiang as the best way to get this topic into GACC discussions. 5. Can you explain more on why you are interested in this topic for stoves? Do you have an upper price limit or particular stove application in mind? Would several low cost batch TLUDs operating sequentially in parallel meet your needs? I consider the non-continuous aspect of TLUDs as their biggest drawback - so think we should all take this topic very seriously. I thank you for bringing it up. In my mind, the other advantages of TLUDs (primarily time savings and money-making) outweigh this disadvantage. But it would be very nice to remove this disadvantage whenever an application allows the extra expense that seems sure to accompany continuous operation. Ron On Jan 28, 2014, at 4:43 PM, Anthill ahilli...@gmail.com wrote: Hi biochar-production people. Google has failed me. Do you know if anyone developed a biochar-generating stove that can run continuously? Something that: - Produces water-quenched biochar - Runs continuously on pellets/chips - Unlikely to set fire to feed hopper - Flame can be used for cooking What I'm thinking of is something like: http://imgur.com/a/BGADk Google has showed me: The BEK biochar generator http://bekbiochar.pbworks.com/w/page/6465132/FrontPage - Not for cooking Wallace's biochar generator http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/wallaceACpatent - Not woodgas-running Belonio's continuous rice husk generator http://www.drtlud.com/2012/04/04/rice-husk-gasifier-new-papers/ - No quenchable biochar? Any thoughts? -Antony __._,_.___ Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New TopicMessages in this topic (1) RECENT ACTIVITY: New Members 1 Visit Your Group Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest * Unsubscribe * Terms of Use . __,_._,___ -- Nolbert Muhumuza President Chief Operations Officer Awamu Biomass Energy Ltd. P.O. Box 40127, Nakawa Kampala - Uganda. Mobile: +256-776-346724 Skype: nolbertm www.awamu.ug ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Continuous TLUD for cooking
Hello Nolbert, Good points, but you seems to underestimate the potential for the gasfier stoves in an urban setting, using sundried woodchips and/or pellets as fuel. A LOT of chopped Wood in the rural areas, goes to Production of charcoal for sale in the larger cities, Cash Crop, if you like. Now they can sell sundried and prepared woodchips, reducing the demand for trees by more than 50%, less deforestation. A clean burning stoves means, no smoke, yes. And every child in Africa, who grew up in a rural setting, knows VERY WELL, what humid firewood during the rains, will do to Your eyes from the toxic smoke, as simple as that. Otto F. Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2014 17:00:23 +0300 From: muhum...@gmail.com To: stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org CC: atbelo...@yahoo.com; alangetsem...@gmail.com; ahilli...@gmail.com; rchi...@cleancookstoves.org; j...@mac.com; biochar-product...@yahoogroups.com; je...@whitfieldbiochar.com Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Continuous TLUD for cooking Hello Ronal, Just to add; from experience the four selling points for TLUD stoves are; 1. Time and fuel saving (cook faster, with much less biomass) 2. Use a wide variety of biomass (this has issues with chopping wood especially for rural Uganda) 3. Makes Charcoal that can be re-used in another charcoal stove or as biochar 4. Clean (less smoke aka toxins - but they dont really understand emissions) These are clear for potential users when we do a demo in villages. Nolbert. 2014-01-29, Ronal W. Larson rongretlar...@comcast.net: Antony - with eleven ccs 1. First note nice help offered by Alan Cave in several messages yesterday. They did not include your original request below. I agree with his remark that the continuous Belonio stoves that you found at Paul Anderson's sites are down draft (BLDD) - and that may be the best way to go. At the recent ETHOS conference I do not recall this topic coming up. (I wrote 3-pager on that conference - available at the stoves site.) The reason is the strong emphasis on stoves that cost $10-$20 - and I doubt we can ever see continuous feed stoves in that price range. I talked to Dr. Belonio a good bit over the last weekend, but this topic did not come up. I include Alexis as a cc, as he is probably the best expert on this topic we have. 2. I include the stoves list, because there is apt to be more expertise there on your stove question than on the Biochar-production list. Tom Miles added because he manages both lists and will have valuable thoughts. 3. I Include Jerry Whitfield, Jock Gill, Alex English, and Marc Pare as they have all written on continuous feed char-makers; but none I think for stoves. These are probably all horizontal feed (augers, moving grates, etc.). See http://www.whitfieldbiochar.com (that is apparently in a hold mode). Apologies to anyone I inadvertently left out who has been thinking of continuous-feed stoves. 4. I include Dean Still and Ranyee Chiang as the best way to get this topic into GACC discussions. 5. Can you explain more on why you are interested in this topic for stoves? Do you have an upper price limit or particular stove application in mind? Would several low cost batch TLUDs operating sequentially in parallel meet your needs? I consider the non-continuous aspect of TLUDs as their biggest drawback - so think we should all take this topic very seriously. I thank you for bringing it up. In my mind, the other advantages of TLUDs (primarily time savings and money-making) outweigh this disadvantage. But it would be very nice to remove this disadvantage whenever an application allows the extra expense that seems sure to accompany continuous operation. Ron On Jan 28, 2014, at 4:43 PM, Anthill ahilli...@gmail.com wrote: Hi biochar-production people. Google has failed me. Do you know if anyone developed a biochar-generating stove that can run continuously? Something that: - Produces water-quenched biochar - Runs continuously on pellets/chips - Unlikely to set fire to feed hopper - Flame can be used for cooking What I'm thinking of is something like: http://imgur.com/a/BGADk Google has showed me: The BEK biochar generator http://bekbiochar.pbworks.com/w/page/6465132/FrontPage - Not for cooking Wallace's biochar generator http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/wallaceACpatent - Not woodgas-running Belonio's continuous rice husk generator http://www.drtlud.com/2012/04/04/rice-husk-gasifier-new-papers/ - No quenchable biochar? Any thoughts? -Antony __._,_.___ Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) RECENT ACTIVITY: New Members 1 Visit Your Group Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest * Unsubscribe * Terms of Use
Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Continuous TLUD for cooking
Nolbert and ccs Thanks for adding this list of four selling points for TLUDs. A few questions: a. Are they in priority order? Might the order change for different types of customers? (say by income?) b. Any way of saying how much of each selling point is needed to move away from a traditional stove? c. Does the batch aspect of TLUDs turn some/many of your customers off? d. Guessing the TLUDs won’t handle all cooking, can you say for what tasks they are using them (water boiling, etc)? e. At the recent Ethos meeting, Michael Johnson of Berkeley Air Monitoring talked about a new approach for encouraging, for health reasons looking at daily maximum exposures, displacement of the dirtiest stoves with the cleanest. Any information you can pass on to GACC along those lines? f. Do you need and have subsidies to get greater adoption rates? g. Anything big I’ve missed? To others - see https://www.facebook.com/awamubiomass. Nolbert is working with Paul Anderson. Ron On Feb 3, 2014, at 7:00 AM, Nolbert Muhumuza muhum...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Ronal, Just to add; from experience the four selling points for TLUD stoves are; 1. Time and fuel saving (cook faster, with much less biomass) 2. Use a wide variety of biomass (this has issues with chopping wood especially for rural Uganda) 3. Makes Charcoal that can be re-used in another charcoal stove or as biochar 4. Clean (less smoke aka toxins - but they dont really understand emissions) These are clear for potential users when we do a demo in villages. Nolbert. 2014-01-29, Ronal W. Larson rongretlar...@comcast.net: Antony - with eleven ccs 1. First note nice help offered by Alan Cave in several messages yesterday. They did not include your original request below. I agree with his remark that the continuous Belonio stoves that you found at Paul Anderson's sites are down draft (BLDD) - and that may be the best way to go. At the recent ETHOS conference I do not recall this topic coming up. (I wrote 3-pager on that conference - available at the stoves site.) The reason is the strong emphasis on stoves that cost $10-$20 - and I doubt we can ever see continuous feed stoves in that price range. I talked to Dr. Belonio a good bit over the last weekend, but this topic did not come up. I include Alexis as a cc, as he is probably the best expert on this topic we have. 2. I include the stoves list, because there is apt to be more expertise there on your stove question than on the Biochar-production list. Tom Miles added because he manages both lists and will have valuable thoughts. 3. I Include Jerry Whitfield, Jock Gill, Alex English, and Marc Pare as they have all written on continuous feed char-makers; but none I think for stoves. These are probably all horizontal feed (augers, moving grates, etc.). See http://www.whitfieldbiochar.com (that is apparently in a hold mode). Apologies to anyone I inadvertently left out who has been thinking of continuous-feed stoves. 4. I include Dean Still and Ranyee Chiang as the best way to get this topic into GACC discussions. 5. Can you explain more on why you are interested in this topic for stoves? Do you have an upper price limit or particular stove application in mind? Would several low cost batch TLUDs operating sequentially in parallel meet your needs? I consider the non-continuous aspect of TLUDs as their biggest drawback - so think we should all take this topic very seriously. I thank you for bringing it up. In my mind, the other advantages of TLUDs (primarily time savings and money-making) outweigh this disadvantage. But it would be very nice to remove this disadvantage whenever an application allows the extra expense that seems sure to accompany continuous operation. Ron On Jan 28, 2014, at 4:43 PM, Anthill ahilli...@gmail.com wrote: Hi biochar-production people. Google has failed me. Do you know if anyone developed a biochar-generating stove that can run continuously? Something that: - Produces water-quenched biochar - Runs continuously on pellets/chips - Unlikely to set fire to feed hopper - Flame can be used for cooking What I'm thinking of is something like: http://imgur.com/a/BGADk Google has showed me: The BEK biochar generator http://bekbiochar.pbworks.com/w/page/6465132/FrontPage - Not for cooking Wallace's biochar generator http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/wallaceACpatent - Not woodgas-running Belonio's continuous rice husk generator http://www.drtlud.com/2012/04/04/rice-husk-gasifier-new-papers/ - No quenchable biochar? Any thoughts? -Antony __._,_.___ Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) RECENT ACTIVITY: New Members 1 Visit Your Group Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest * Unsubscribe * Terms of Use . __,_._,___
Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Continuous TLUD for cooking
Dear Ronal, Nolbert and all, I dont think there can be fixed priority order of the selling point, must based on local demand. It happen to us in the small area we covered so far in Vietnam that the reason to buy the stoves varies from area to area. An additional selling point that may not make a lot of sense but it did work especially in sub urban area is that the stove is clean, tidy can be used anywhere (outside the traditional kitchen for three stone stove) and looks modern. Batch aspect of TLUD: you still can always add more fuel, so it doesnt matter much, just need to time the burning rate right to add at the right time. From what I know, batch time varies based on fuel so it varies from area to area and end users will learn it very fast from their own fuel. By continuous running: what time range, cooking demand are we talking about here? We all know TLUD is much better for health but sadly most users doesnt know or care much about it as they've been cooking the old way for generation. This would need a lot of supports to raise the issue to their attention. Anh From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-boun...@lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Ronal W. Larson Sent: 04 February, 2014 11:20 AM To: Discussion of biomass Cc: atbelo...@yahoo.com; Biochar-Policy; alangetsem...@gmail.com; ahilli...@gmail.com; Ranyee Chiang; Jock Gill; Biochar-production; je...@whitfieldbiochar.com Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Continuous TLUD for cooking Nolbert and ccs Thanks for adding this list of four selling points for TLUDs. A few questions: a. Are they in priority order? Might the order change for different types of customers? (say by income?) b. Any way of saying how much of each selling point is needed to move away from a traditional stove? c. Does the batch aspect of TLUDs turn some/many of your customers off? d. Guessing the TLUDs won't handle all cooking, can you say for what tasks they are using them (water boiling, etc)? e. At the recent Ethos meeting, Michael Johnson of Berkeley Air Monitoring talked about a new approach for encouraging, for health reasons looking at daily maximum exposures, displacement of the dirtiest stoves with the cleanest. Any information you can pass on to GACC along those lines? f. Do you need and have subsidies to get greater adoption rates? g. Anything big I've missed? To others - see https://www.facebook.com/awamubiomass. Nolbert is working with Paul Anderson. Ron On Feb 3, 2014, at 7:00 AM, Nolbert Muhumuza muhum...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Ronal, Just to add; from experience the four selling points for TLUD stoves are; 1. Time and fuel saving (cook faster, with much less biomass) 2. Use a wide variety of biomass (this has issues with chopping wood especially for rural Uganda) 3. Makes Charcoal that can be re-used in another charcoal stove or as biochar 4. Clean (less smoke aka toxins - but they dont really understand emissions) These are clear for potential users when we do a demo in villages. Nolbert. 2014-01-29, Ronal W. Larson rongretlar...@comcast.net: Antony - with eleven ccs 1. First note nice help offered by Alan Cave in several messages yesterday. They did not include your original request below. I agree with his remark that the continuous Belonio stoves that you found at Paul Anderson's sites are down draft (BLDD) - and that may be the best way to go. At the recent ETHOS conference I do not recall this topic coming up. (I wrote 3-pager on that conference - available at the stoves site.) The reason is the strong emphasis on stoves that cost $10-$20 - and I doubt we can ever see continuous feed stoves in that price range. I talked to Dr. Belonio a good bit over the last weekend, but this topic did not come up. I include Alexis as a cc, as he is probably the best expert on this topic we have. 2. I include the stoves list, because there is apt to be more expertise there on your stove question than on the Biochar-production list. Tom Miles added because he manages both lists and will have valuable thoughts. 3. I Include Jerry Whitfield, Jock Gill, Alex English, and Marc Pare as they have all written on continuous feed char-makers; but none I think for stoves. These are probably all horizontal feed (augers, moving grates, etc.). See http://www.whitfieldbiochar.com (that is apparently in a hold mode). Apologies to anyone I inadvertently left out who has been thinking of continuous-feed stoves. 4. I include Dean Still and Ranyee Chiang as the best way to get this topic into GACC discussions. 5. Can you explain more on why you are interested in this topic for stoves? Do you have an upper price limit or particular stove application in mind? Would several low cost batch TLUDs operating sequentially in parallel meet your needs? I consider the non-continuous aspect of TLUDs
