Re: [Stoves] Forestry and fuel
Dear Nolbert Please try to emphasize that there is a lot to be learned from the Chad and Rwanda models of charcoal production and trading, and that the illegality of the trade makes nearly no difference at all in the volume traded, it just places the action in the hands of crooks - many of them tied to people in government or the regulatory process. In Haiti this is the case where keeping the trade (for the most part, not all) illegal suits the people involved in large scale smuggling from other islands. Regards Crispin Subject: Re: [Stoves] Forestry and fuel Dear Crispin and Richard, Am attending and East African meeting on Biofuels and Renewable Energy next week and I will try to share these. Ugandans and East Africans need to start harvesting charcoal in a sustainable manner and but also start implementing the policies the government drafted with regard to charcoal burning. More hope that there are potential markets outside Uganda! Nolbert. ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
Re: [Stoves] Forestry and fuel
Hello, Am actually surprised that Africa is exporting charcoal to Europe! Well, there are numerous initiatives in Uganda making carbonized briquettes. This could be the same all around Africa and this is our chance to make quality briquettes mainly for domestic use (from straws, dry leaves, carpentry reside etc) and we can sell the surplus - which should be a motivation for these produces. I will share this article with stovers in Uganda. Nolbert. 2014/1/20, Richard Stanley rstan...@legacyfound.org: Agreed Teddy, lakiini… The real issue is that some feel it is not a problem at all. We can use all the crumbs ad dust generated at the charcoal sellers stall use it as 40% of the filler in an ordinarily grass straw leaf ago residue briquette and turn the briquete into a charcoal like performance with double the value--all while reducing demand for the lump charcoal considerably. The late Charles Onyando and before him Francis Oloo in Kangemi were doing just that. Francis and Mary Kavitas out of Miumbuni (former Makweni district) continue to train others nationally and regionally on same as does James Ochieng and Beatrice Atoh's group at Hook Kenya working out of Kibera in Nbi, and several other trainers in chi yako/Kenya/ to this day. I will send you the email links to my colleagues if you want them. Basi haya kwa asa rafiki, Richard Stanley de Nicaragua Richard On Jan 20, 2014, at 1:17 AM, Cookswell Jikos wrote: Dear Richard, Well said... ''If this is the case, I fail to see how we are not are going to be with fuelwood dependency for a long time to come.'' Interestingly enough, I was just reading this article on Nigerian charcoal exports to West Europe - to the tune of 2-300 containers a month. http://www.vanguardngr.com/2013/10/high-demand-nigerian-charcoal-eu-countries/ The fact that developed countries like Belgium and Holland are buying massive amounts of charcoal from Africa (same with the Middle East, Dubai, Abu Dhabi etc. and Somali charcoal), leads me to believe that perhaps advocating, promoting and undertaking tree growing and farm forestry is indeed a very lucky opportunity for improved biomass cookstove industry players to take part in. Biomass cookstove manufacturer's, retailers and people who give them away for free, have everything to gain by promoting better woodfuel/biomass energy security as part of their corporate social investment programs and also its just good for future business. Regards, Teddy Cookswell Jikos www.cookswell.co.ke www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com Mobile: +254 700 380 009 Mobile: +254 700 905 913 P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 4:05 AM, Richard Stanley rstan...@legacyfound.org wrote: Ron, Teddy et all concerned with the Samer's cited FAO report. Impressive data sources but it seems to be contrary to my own experience for what its worth. Having lived in Malawi, Tanzania, Uganda and Kenya for many years, in the 70's then revisiting for extended periods all of these locations in the first decade of the 2000's I have seen the effects of wood use -primarily for fuel - and it is substantial, and not pretty. Here in mezzo America now it is more widely reported that it is the expansion of large scale industrial agriculture and biofuel farming that is tearing apart natural forest lands..fine but the destruction of traditional forested land for industrial agriculture is a one time thing.. The steady depletion of the forests, due to, primarily, fuelwood demand in MAlawi Kenya and Tanzania especially is not only ongoing but expanding with population growth. The notion of a fuelwood ladder aside, the demographic of the expansion of the mass population in the developing nations favors, sadly, the growth of the more marginalized, less educated, less well employed and more fuelwood dependent segments of the population. Almost everywhere I look I see this to be the case. Their desperation for fuelwood and decent income at large, is only exacerbated by industrial agriculture and biofuel farming. If this is the case, I fail to see how we are not are going to be with fuelwood dependency for a long time to come. Personally, I see no less use of wood/charcoal to day than I did in the 70's at lease in amongst the mass population in the mentioned countries. Kind regards, Richard Stanley www.legcayfound.org On Jan 14, 2014, at 1:11 PM, Ronal W. Larson wrote: Teddy: 1. Thanks for the cite below. Slide #36 implies that FAO is not doing a very credible job in reporting on charcoal consumption. Off by a factor of about 100 (that is 10,000% error). I was pleased to see the FAO report cite by Samer yesterday (given below). Now I am not so sure. Can anyone defend the FAO data collection effort on charcoal? 2. The slideshow refers to a special 2013 issue of ESD on charcoal. Looks good, but I haven’t had a
Re: [Stoves] Forestry and fuel
Nolbert, I wanted to mention to you that there is a big distinction between making carbonized briquettes and blending normal agresidue briquettes with char residues. On the one had you are charring residues in the field which immediately reduces 50% + of their raw energy value. (I have yet to see this done cleanly in unmonitored daily charring operations in the field and many may disagree with that but its not germain to this topic). On the other hand the with char residues off the charcoal seller floor or charcoal sieved and crushed, out of the previous fire blended into the normal ag residue blend wastes no energy at all ---but the end product performs in a very similar fashion for very similar purposes in the cooks stove. Ssebo Richard Stanley www.legacyfound.org On Jan 23, 2014, at 4:36 AM, Nolbert Muhumuza wrote: Hello, Am actually surprised that Africa is exporting charcoal to Europe! Well, there are numerous initiatives in Uganda making carbonized briquettes. This could be the same all around Africa and this is our chance to make quality briquettes mainly for domestic use (from straws, dry leaves, carpentry reside etc) and we can sell the surplus - which should be a motivation for these produces. I will share this article with stovers in Uganda. Nolbert. 2014/1/20, Richard Stanley rstan...@legacyfound.org: Agreed Teddy, lakiini… The real issue is that some feel it is not a problem at all. We can use all the crumbs ad dust generated at the charcoal sellers stall use it as 40% of the filler in an ordinarily grass straw leaf ago residue briquette and turn the briquete into a charcoal like performance with double the value--all while reducing demand for the lump charcoal considerably. The late Charles Onyando and before him Francis Oloo in Kangemi were doing just that. Francis and Mary Kavitas out of Miumbuni (former Makweni district) continue to train others nationally and regionally on same as does James Ochieng and Beatrice Atoh's group at Hook Kenya working out of Kibera in Nbi, and several other trainers in chi yako/Kenya/ to this day. I will send you the email links to my colleagues if you want them. Basi haya kwa asa rafiki, Richard Stanley de Nicaragua Richard On Jan 20, 2014, at 1:17 AM, Cookswell Jikos wrote: Dear Richard, Well said... ''If this is the case, I fail to see how we are not are going to be with fuelwood dependency for a long time to come.'' Interestingly enough, I was just reading this article on Nigerian charcoal exports to West Europe - to the tune of 2-300 containers a month. http://www.vanguardngr.com/2013/10/high-demand-nigerian-charcoal-eu-countries/ The fact that developed countries like Belgium and Holland are buying massive amounts of charcoal from Africa (same with the Middle East, Dubai, Abu Dhabi etc. and Somali charcoal), leads me to believe that perhaps advocating, promoting and undertaking tree growing and farm forestry is indeed a very lucky opportunity for improved biomass cookstove industry players to take part in. Biomass cookstove manufacturer's, retailers and people who give them away for free, have everything to gain by promoting better woodfuel/biomass energy security as part of their corporate social investment programs and also its just good for future business. Regards, Teddy Cookswell Jikos www.cookswell.co.ke www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com Mobile: +254 700 380 009 Mobile: +254 700 905 913 P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 4:05 AM, Richard Stanley rstan...@legacyfound.org wrote: Ron, Teddy et all concerned with the Samer's cited FAO report. Impressive data sources but it seems to be contrary to my own experience for what its worth. Having lived in Malawi, Tanzania, Uganda and Kenya for many years, in the 70's then revisiting for extended periods all of these locations in the first decade of the 2000's I have seen the effects of wood use -primarily for fuel - and it is substantial, and not pretty. Here in mezzo America now it is more widely reported that it is the expansion of large scale industrial agriculture and biofuel farming that is tearing apart natural forest lands..fine but the destruction of traditional forested land for industrial agriculture is a one time thing.. The steady depletion of the forests, due to, primarily, fuelwood demand in MAlawi Kenya and Tanzania especially is not only ongoing but expanding with population growth. The notion of a fuelwood ladder aside, the demographic of the expansion of the mass population in the developing nations favors, sadly, the growth of the more marginalized, less educated, less well employed and more fuelwood dependent segments of the population. Almost everywhere I look I see this to be the case. Their desperation for fuelwood and decent income at large, is only exacerbated by industrial agriculture and
Re: [Stoves] Forestry and fuel
Dear Nolbert There are rules for importation of charcoal to the EU one of which is that the source has to be harvested sustainably. An example of a success according to this rule is that Senegal is exporting charcoaled extruded biomass logs made from Tiffa or bulrushes. They have invaded the banks of the Senegal river below the big dams (which cut off the annual flooding) and are therefore 'new and sustainable'. If you have a stove or a bank of stoves producing charcoal, you may be required to show that the raw fuel used was harvested sustainably. Well, it is really likely you will have to show that. Regards Crispin -Original Message- From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-boun...@lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Nolbert Muhumuza Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 5:36 AM To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves Subject: Re: [Stoves] Forestry and fuel Hello, Am actually surprised that Africa is exporting charcoal to Europe! Well, there are numerous initiatives in Uganda making carbonized briquettes. This could be the same all around Africa and this is our chance to make quality briquettes mainly for domestic use (from straws, dry leaves, carpentry reside etc) and we can sell the surplus - which should be a motivation for these produces. I will share this article with stovers in Uganda. Nolbert. 2014/1/20, Richard Stanley mailto:rstan...@legacyfound.org rstan...@legacyfound.org: Agreed Teddy, lakiini. The real issue is that some feel it is not a problem at all. We can use all the crumbs ad dust generated at the charcoal sellers stall use it as 40% of the filler in an ordinarily grass straw leaf ago residue briquette and turn the briquete into a charcoal like performance with double the value--all while reducing demand for the lump charcoal considerably. The late Charles Onyando and before him Francis Oloo in Kangemi were doing just that. Francis and Mary Kavitas out of Miumbuni (former Makweni district) continue to train others nationally and regionally on same as does James Ochieng and Beatrice Atoh's group at Hook Kenya working out of Kibera in Nbi, and several other trainers in chi yako/Kenya/ to this day. I will send you the email links to my colleagues if you want them. Basi haya kwa asa rafiki, Richard Stanley de Nicaragua Richard On Jan 20, 2014, at 1:17 AM, Cookswell Jikos wrote: Dear Richard, Well said... ''If this is the case, I fail to see how we are not are going to be with fuelwood dependency for a long time to come.'' Interestingly enough, I was just reading this article on Nigerian charcoal exports to West Europe - to the tune of 2-300 containers a month. http://www.vanguardngr.com/2013/10/high-demand-nigerian-charcoal-eu-co http://www.vanguardngr.com/2013/10/high-demand-nigerian-charcoal-eu-co untries/ The fact that developed countries like Belgium and Holland are buying massive amounts of charcoal from Africa (same with the Middle East, Dubai, Abu Dhabi etc. and Somali charcoal), leads me to believe that perhaps advocating, promoting and undertaking tree growing and farm forestry is indeed a very lucky opportunity for improved biomass cookstove industry players to take part in. Biomass cookstove manufacturer's, retailers and people who give them away for free, have everything to gain by promoting better woodfuel/biomass energy security as part of their corporate social investment programs and also its just good for future business. Regards, Teddy Cookswell Jikos http://www.cookswell.co.ke www.cookswell.co.ke http://www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos http://www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com Mobile: +254 700 380 009 Mobile: +254 700 905 913 P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 4:05 AM, Richard Stanley mailto:rstan...@legacyfound.org rstan...@legacyfound.org wrote: Ron, Teddy et all concerned with the Samer's cited FAO report. Impressive data sources but it seems to be contrary to my own experience for what its worth. Having lived in Malawi, Tanzania, Uganda and Kenya for many years, in the 70's then revisiting for extended periods all of these locations in the first decade of the 2000's I have seen the effects of wood use -primarily for fuel - and it is substantial, and not pretty. Here in mezzo America now it is more widely reported that it is the expansion of large scale industrial agriculture and biofuel farming that is tearing apart natural forest lands..fine but the destruction of traditional forested land for industrial agriculture is a one time thing.. The steady depletion of the forests, due to, primarily, fuelwood demand in MAlawi Kenya and Tanzania especially is not only ongoing but expanding with population growth. The notion
Re: [Stoves] Forestry and fuel
Dear Teddy, I am a bit surprised to be given the information about the charcoal export from Africa to Holland, amongst others. (No wonder SNV is not so keen to advocate for the use of biomass fuel within Africa..) Belgium, never surprise me, when it comes to exploit other countries, inline with the Emirates. (Spend two weeks there last year.) First of all, those exports should be very much restricted, controlled and certificied by the FSC, before blaming the local population to contribute to Climate Change! Regards Otto F Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 10:17:31 +0300 From: cookswellji...@gmail.com To: stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org Subject: Re: [Stoves] Forestry and fuel Dear Richard, Well said... ''If this is the case, I fail to see how we are not are going to be with fuelwood dependency for a long time to come.'' Interestingly enough, I was just reading this article on Nigerian charcoal exports to West Europe - to the tune of 2-300 containers a month. http://www.vanguardngr.com/2013/10/high-demand-nigerian-charcoal-eu-countries/ The fact that developed countries like Belgium and Holland are buying massive amounts of charcoal from Africa (same with the Middle East, Dubai, Abu Dhabi etc. and Somali charcoal), leads me to believe that perhaps advocating, promoting and undertaking tree growing and farm forestry is indeed a very lucky opportunity for improved biomass cookstove industry players to take part in. Biomass cookstove manufacturer's, retailers and people who give them away for free, have everything to gain by promoting better woodfuel/biomass energy security as part of their corporate social investment programs and also its just good for future business. Regards, TeddyCookswell Jikos www.cookswell.co.ke www.facebook.com/CookswellJikoswww.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com Mobile: +254 700 380 009 Mobile: +254 700 905 913P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 4:05 AM, Richard Stanley rstan...@legacyfound.org wrote: Ron, Teddy et all concerned with the Samer's cited FAO report. Impressive data sources but it seems to be contrary to my own experience for what its worth. Having lived in Malawi, Tanzania, Uganda and Kenya for many years, in the 70's then revisiting for extended periods all of these locations in the first decade of the 2000's I have seen the effects of wood use -primarily for fuel - and it is substantial, and not pretty. Here in mezzo America now it is more widely reported that it is the expansion of large scale industrial agriculture and biofuel farming that is tearing apart natural forest lands..fine but the destruction of traditional forested land for industrial agriculture is a one time thing.. The steady depletion of the forests, due to, primarily, fuelwood demand in MAlawi Kenya and Tanzania especially is not only ongoing but expanding with population growth. The notion of a fuelwood ladder aside, the demographic of the expansion of the mass population in the developing nations favors, sadly, the growth of the more marginalized, less educated, less well employed and more fuelwood dependent segments of the population. Almost everywhere I look I see this to be the case. Their desperation for fuelwood and decent income at large, is only exacerbated by industrial agriculture and biofuel farming. If this is the case, I fail to see how we are not are going to be with fuelwood dependency for a long time to come. Personally, I see no less use of wood/charcoal to day than I did in the 70's at lease in amongst the mass population in the mentioned countries. Kind regards, Richard Stanleywww.legcayfound.org On Jan 14, 2014, at 1:11 PM, Ronal W. Larson wrote: Teddy: 1. Thanks for the cite below. Slide #36 implies that FAO is not doing a very credible job in reporting on charcoal consumption. Off by a factor of about 100 (that is 10,000% error). I was pleased to see the FAO report cite by Samer yesterday (given below). Now I am not so sure. Can anyone defend the FAO data collection effort on charcoal? 2. The slideshow refers to a special 2013 issue of ESD on charcoal. Looks good, but I haven’t had a chance yet to see if my library carries it for free. Anyone able to comment on what that issue is saying about deforestation? 3. Returning to your recent response about your own char-making stoves not being accepted. It seemed you might have been testing a stove where the char was both made and used in the same stove. TLUD proponents would say that is not likely to work. Can you clarify on what type of char-making/using stove you were producing? Ron On Jan 13, 2014, at 11:02 PM, Cookswell Jikos cookswellji...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Samer, Thanks for sharing, but if indeed this is fully the case, I wonder why the reduction of deforestation features so heavily on most cookstove marketing pitches. (even mine sometimes
Re: [Stoves] Forestry and fuel
Agreed Teddy, lakiini… The real issue is that some feel it is not a problem at all. We can use all the crumbs ad dust generated at the charcoal sellers stall use it as 40% of the filler in an ordinarily grass straw leaf ago residue briquette and turn the briquete into a charcoal like performance with double the value--all while reducing demand for the lump charcoal considerably. The late Charles Onyando and before him Francis Oloo in Kangemi were doing just that. Francis and Mary Kavitas out of Miumbuni (former Makweni district) continue to train others nationally and regionally on same as does James Ochieng and Beatrice Atoh's group at Hook Kenya working out of Kibera in Nbi, and several other trainers in chi yako/Kenya/ to this day. I will send you the email links to my colleagues if you want them. Basi haya kwa asa rafiki, Richard Stanley de Nicaragua Richard On Jan 20, 2014, at 1:17 AM, Cookswell Jikos wrote: Dear Richard, Well said... ''If this is the case, I fail to see how we are not are going to be with fuelwood dependency for a long time to come.'' Interestingly enough, I was just reading this article on Nigerian charcoal exports to West Europe - to the tune of 2-300 containers a month. http://www.vanguardngr.com/2013/10/high-demand-nigerian-charcoal-eu-countries/ The fact that developed countries like Belgium and Holland are buying massive amounts of charcoal from Africa (same with the Middle East, Dubai, Abu Dhabi etc. and Somali charcoal), leads me to believe that perhaps advocating, promoting and undertaking tree growing and farm forestry is indeed a very lucky opportunity for improved biomass cookstove industry players to take part in. Biomass cookstove manufacturer's, retailers and people who give them away for free, have everything to gain by promoting better woodfuel/biomass energy security as part of their corporate social investment programs and also its just good for future business. Regards, Teddy Cookswell Jikos www.cookswell.co.ke www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com Mobile: +254 700 380 009 Mobile: +254 700 905 913 P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 4:05 AM, Richard Stanley rstan...@legacyfound.org wrote: Ron, Teddy et all concerned with the Samer's cited FAO report. Impressive data sources but it seems to be contrary to my own experience for what its worth. Having lived in Malawi, Tanzania, Uganda and Kenya for many years, in the 70's then revisiting for extended periods all of these locations in the first decade of the 2000's I have seen the effects of wood use -primarily for fuel - and it is substantial, and not pretty. Here in mezzo America now it is more widely reported that it is the expansion of large scale industrial agriculture and biofuel farming that is tearing apart natural forest lands..fine but the destruction of traditional forested land for industrial agriculture is a one time thing.. The steady depletion of the forests, due to, primarily, fuelwood demand in MAlawi Kenya and Tanzania especially is not only ongoing but expanding with population growth. The notion of a fuelwood ladder aside, the demographic of the expansion of the mass population in the developing nations favors, sadly, the growth of the more marginalized, less educated, less well employed and more fuelwood dependent segments of the population. Almost everywhere I look I see this to be the case. Their desperation for fuelwood and decent income at large, is only exacerbated by industrial agriculture and biofuel farming. If this is the case, I fail to see how we are not are going to be with fuelwood dependency for a long time to come. Personally, I see no less use of wood/charcoal to day than I did in the 70's at lease in amongst the mass population in the mentioned countries. Kind regards, Richard Stanley www.legcayfound.org On Jan 14, 2014, at 1:11 PM, Ronal W. Larson wrote: Teddy: 1. Thanks for the cite below. Slide #36 implies that FAO is not doing a very credible job in reporting on charcoal consumption. Off by a factor of about 100 (that is 10,000% error). I was pleased to see the FAO report cite by Samer yesterday (given below). Now I am not so sure. Can anyone defend the FAO data collection effort on charcoal? 2. The slideshow refers to a special 2013 issue of ESD on charcoal. Looks good, but I haven’t had a chance yet to see if my library carries it for free. Anyone able to comment on what that issue is saying about deforestation? 3. Returning to your recent response about your own char-making stoves not being accepted. It seemed you might have been testing a stove where the char was both made and used in the same stove. TLUD proponents would say that is not likely to work. Can you clarify on what type of char-making/using stove you were producing? Ron On Jan 13, 2014, at 11:02 PM, Cookswell Jikos cookswellji...@gmail.com
Re: [Stoves] Forestry and fuel
Dear Richard, Well said... *''If this is the case, I fail to see how we are not are going to be with fuelwood dependency for a long time to come.'' * Interestingly enough, I was just reading this article on Nigerian charcoal exports to West Europe - to the tune of 2-300 containers a month. http://www.vanguardngr.com/2013/10/high-demand-nigerian-charcoal-eu-countries/ The fact that developed countries like Belgium and Holland are buying massive amounts of charcoal from Africa (same with the Middle East, Dubai, Abu Dhabi etc. and Somali charcoal), leads me to believe that perhaps advocating, promoting and undertaking tree growing and farm forestry is indeed a very lucky opportunity for improved biomass cookstove industry players to take part in. Biomass cookstove manufacturer's, retailers and people who give them away for free, have everything to gain by promoting better woodfuel/biomass energy security as part of their corporate social investment programs and also its just good for future business. Regards, Teddy *Cookswell Jikos* www.cookswell.co.ke www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com Mobile: +254 700 380 009 Mobile: +254 700 905 913 P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 4:05 AM, Richard Stanley rstan...@legacyfound.orgwrote: Ron, Teddy et all concerned with the Samer's cited FAO report. Impressive data sources but it seems to be contrary to my own experience for what its worth. Having lived in Malawi, Tanzania, Uganda and Kenya for many years, in the 70's then revisiting for extended periods all of these locations in the first decade of the 2000's I have seen the effects of wood use -primarily for fuel - and it is substantial, and not pretty. Here in mezzo America now it is more widely reported that it is the expansion of large scale industrial agriculture and biofuel farming that is tearing apart natural forest lands..fine but the destruction of traditional forested land for industrial agriculture is a one time thing.. The steady depletion of the forests, due to, primarily, fuelwood demand in MAlawi Kenya and Tanzania especially is not only ongoing but expanding with population growth. The notion of a fuelwood ladder aside, the demographic of the expansion of the mass population in the developing nations favors, sadly, the growth of the more marginalized, less educated, less well employed and more fuelwood dependent segments of the population. Almost everywhere I look I see this to be the case. Their desperation for fuelwood and decent income at large, is only exacerbated by industrial agriculture and biofuel farming. If this is the case, I fail to see how we are not are going to be with fuelwood dependency for a long time to come. Personally, I see no less use of wood/charcoal to day than I did in the 70's at lease in amongst the mass population in the mentioned countries. Kind regards, Richard Stanley www.legcayfound.org On Jan 14, 2014, at 1:11 PM, Ronal W. Larson wrote: Teddy: 1. Thanks for the cite below. Slide #36 implies that FAO is not doing a very credible job in reporting on charcoal consumption. Off by a factor of about 100 (that is 10,000% error). I was pleased to see the FAO report cite by Samer yesterday (given below). Now I am not so sure. Can anyone defend the FAO data collection effort on charcoal? 2. The slideshow refers to a special 2013 issue of ESD on charcoal. Looks good, but I haven’t had a chance yet to see if my library carries it for free. Anyone able to comment on what that issue is saying about deforestation? 3. Returning to your recent response about your own char-making stoves not being accepted. It seemed you might have been testing a stove where the char was both made and used in the same stove. TLUD proponents would say that is not likely to work. Can you clarify on what type of char-making/using stove you were producing? Ron On Jan 13, 2014, at 11:02 PM, Cookswell Jikos cookswellji...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Samer, Thanks for sharing, but if indeed this is fully the case, I wonder why the reduction of deforestation features so heavily on most cookstove marketing pitches. (even mine sometimes!) Further interesting reading that somewhat supports this is a very good presentation done by ICRAF recently, that is aptly titled, What Happened to the Charcoal Crisis http://www.slideshare.net/agroforestry/miyuki-iiyamaicrafcharcoal-review2013 It is a very good systematic review of many other woodfuel papers in East Africa. It seems to be that on farm woodfuel is becoming more and more of income generating wood energy source. All the best, Teddy *Cookswell Jikos* www.cookswell.co.ke www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com Mobile: +254 700 380 009 Mobile: +254 700 905 913 P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 9:31 PM, Samer Abdelnour
Re: [Stoves] Forestry and fuel - charcoal crisis?
Dear Samer, Your Reference to the publication from FAO is from 1997. A a lot of changes has occured in the rural areas of Africa and other develpoing countries, regarding migrations to the lager cities. Due to this fact, the demand for charcoal for Cooking, has increased dramatically, without question. How can we denie, that burnig off about 50% of the energy content in the forest, than rather using 95% of the energy in woodfuel, linked to clean burning gasifier units? Anyway, gasifier units are not a Magic bullet, but a well known Technology, used widely during the second World War in Europe. Have a nice weekend. Regards Otto F. Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 06:17:32 -0600 From: psand...@ilstu.edu To: stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org Subject: Re: [Stoves] Forestry and fuel - charcoal crisis? All, Is there a more legible copy of the slide set about charcoal? Some of it would be useful information in other presentations. And other slides leave questions in mind about what is actually being shown. Paul Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD Email: psand...@ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072 Website: www.drtlud.com On 1/14/2014 12:02 AM, Cookswell Jikos wrote: Dear Samer, Thanks for sharing, but if indeed this is fully the case, I wonder why the reduction of deforestation features so heavily on most cookstove marketing pitches. (even mine sometimes!) Further interesting reading that somewhat supports this is a very good presentation done by ICRAF recently, that is aptly titled, What Happened to the Charcoal Crisis http://www.slideshare.net/agroforestry/miyuki-iiyamaicrafcharcoal-review2013 It is a very good systematic review of many other woodfuel papers in East Africa. It seems to be that on farm woodfuel is becoming more and more of income generating wood energy source. All the best, Teddy Cookswell Jikos www.cookswell.co.ke www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com Mobile: +254 700 380 009 Mobile: +254 700 905 913 P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 9:31 PM, Samer Abdelnour samer.abdeln...@gmail.com wrote: Dear all, Just to contribute on the deforestation discussion. A dated (1997) by excellent resource by the FAO, which concluded that deforestation occurs mainly as a result of pressures for agricultural land, logging, and national infrastructure projects, not for cooking. http://www.fao.org/docrep/w7744e/w7744e06.htm Of course, I applaud efforts to source cleaner, more sustainable fuel. Perhaps these should be grounded in location specific challenges (i.e. community nurseries), not distorted by general mythologies associated with global problems and magic bullets. Best, Samer ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http
Re: [Stoves] Forestry and Fuel
Samer: cc list I assume this was intended for the full stoves list. Thanks for the comments. Good luck on the thesis defense. I am sorry to hear about the growth in the charcoaling business. How many average hundred (thousand?) kilometer travel distance now for Khartoum? Thanks for the article by Rob Bailis et al. Rob has done good work. Ron On Jan 17, 2014, at 3:04 AM, Samer Abdelnour samer.abdeln...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Ronal, Thanks for your response. Just to clarify, the case study you refer to is based on earlier work that explores the competitive dynamics of stove promoters in Darfur, and PPT based on very early thinking for the current paper. The current paper, which is part of my (yet defended) thesis, examines how stoves were discursively construed as being a panacea for the risk of rape in (any) conflict context. Your assessment of Sudan is spot on. I would also add the immense resources directed to longtime war efforts, and the related building of Khartoum to the detriment of the periphery states is also part of national mismanagement. And the market for charcoal is booming, both for cooking but also for industry (i.e. to produce heat for small scale metal working, etc.). Also other reasons of course, for example, during a 2009 field visit to Blue Nile, some returnee communities, as a result of poor rains and the cut of support from WFP, thousands across a handful of villages resorted to eating the roots of small shrubs. In the case study you mention, then country director of Practical Action was involved in some of the first efficient stove projects in Sudan through CARE. Through his insights and relationships I was able to meet with some of the early stove developers and designers, and establish just how much capacity there was in Sudan in the 80s and on. I also found that USAID central in supporting stove efforts at that time, and helping to strengthen government and research capacity in the area. My comment about stoves being simple relates to the intended functionality. Burn fuel, produce heat, cook. The designs and technology behind them are certainly sophisticated, and I do appreciate the years of dedication scientists and designers dedicate to design and testing. I would certainly love to see more field testing, however. There must be ways to get out of the 'controlled' mindset and develop more effective ways to include sociocultural factors in the use of stoves. Especially when they are reported as being able to solve problems that cannot be attributed to cooking alone. And yes, much, much more work needs to be done on the smoke issue. I certainly hope to do more of this in the near future. And like the topic of violence, I believe the smoke issue demands complementing lab tests and developing new ways to test stoves in the field. An interesting paper on the development side is as follows: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb57889/solarcooking/images/a/a8/Bailis-et-al-2009-Arresting-the-Killer-in-the-Kitchen.pdf Thanks again Ronal and all. I am constantly learning from your comments on a variety of stove related topics and discussions. Warmly, Samer On 17/01/2014, Ronal W. Larson rongretlar...@comcast.net wrote: Samer and list: 1. For others, I recommend a shortened version of Dr. Abdelnour' paper (and possibly his thesis) at: http://www.growinginclusivemarkets.org/media/publications/case_study_of_fuel_efficient_stoves_for_darfur.pdf Interesting comments by Dr. Ashok Gadgil and Crispin. Crispin says there that designing a stove is very complicated - and I agree. Dr. Samer says the opposite below (As you are all aware, stoves are a relatively straightforward technology.) 2. Also I found a Ppt that is easier reading: https://www.google.com/search?q=abdelnour+stove+pptoq=abdelnour+stove+pptaqs=chrome..69i57.27083j0j4sourceid=chromeespv=210es_sm=91ie=UTF-8 and then pick the third entry. 3. I believe Dr. Abdelnour is correct in criticizing the way the Darfur stove program was handled. I worked in Sudan (for USAID) 30 years ago and can tell you there are many talented people there who were presumably left out of the process of providing a solution to the cooking problem in Darfur. I have talked to some of those friends on this Darfur stove situation since. I am sure that one or more International NGOs didn’t do well - but I don’t know any of those details. There was probably also some fault due Sudanese government officials who didn’t want to turn down donor help. I helped start this list in 1995 solely because of the way the enormous use of charcoal has ruined Sudan. If there is a country more hurt by charcoal use, I hope someone will point it out. The reason - most all the land is owned by the government. No incentives for anyone to plant trees. I hope we can hear more on some of this - but I am finding no fault with Dr. Samer’s criticism of
Re: [Stoves] Forestry and Fuel
Dear Samer I think you and Saeed have done a really good job of investigating this meme and how it arose to become a significant element of fundraising for fuel efficient stoves. The particular aspect that interests me is how, once started, the 'root' of the idea which existed in someone's world gets transplanted into other places and grows into a rather different creature. Like a cat released from sack, there is no getting it back inside. It just runs away to a life of its own. There is a strong parallel with the 'world of testing' of stoves. There are ideas that start with 'let's test this...' and later be becomes 'this is how testing should be done' and later, in other hands. 'this is the way testing must be done'. The principal justification for this and for the 'fuel efficient stoves reduce rape' meme are that other have said very similar things (citations provided) therefore it either must be true, or it is true and this is how to frame it. As everyone will be aware, social science follows the same rules are regular science. It is therefore worrying that claims 'which sound like they could be true' are repeated often and for long enough to 'become true' merely because it has been 'popularised'. It is a bit like Zsa Zsa Gabor who was really famous, but mostly for being really famous. Because vested interests always shape the messages they carry, it is inevitable that additional baggage accumulates, but something as important as the technologisation of social phenomena really needs some unpacking. I usually call it techno-cure and there are several synonyms. What you have described in heavily referenced detail is the impact of socially-rooted pressures (desires, ego, personal goals, agendas) on the shaping and selection of technology and what it is claimed to do (cure, heal, comfort, satisfy, ennoble, uplift, validate, confirm, make worthy). Stoves do make heat, but they are so utterly social devices we find that an optimised device, from the point of view of the engineer-inventor, is nothing close to what is wanted by the market. Trying to turn all social (or personal) issues into a technical problem is one of the pathologies of materialist culture. Not every wound is best healed using a bolt, nut and lock washer. Regards Crispin +++ ...For those of you interested, the link to the paper is below, which details the construction of the 'stoves reduce rape' narrative and some of the implications I suggest above. Always happy for feedback and discussion. Warmly, Samer https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259104849_Technologizing_Humanitar ian_Space_Darfur_Advocacy_and_the_Rape-Stove_Panacea/file/60b7d529fb1e6ecbd5 .pdf?origin=publication_detail https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259104849_Technologizing_Humanitari an_Space_Darfur_Advocacy_and_the_Rape-Stove_Panacea/file/60b7d529fb1e6ecbd5. pdf?origin=publication_detail ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
Re: [Stoves] Forestry and Fuel
Samer, Intersting question. To me a One time thing = in this case, clearing the land one time..whether for palm oil plantations or for large scale agricultural projects. That as opposed to the continuous consumption of forest for fuel (albeit in smaller increments) which in this context, would be a not one time thing. Joking aside, I find that often the data sets of reality are a function of the time over which that reality is studied. my reality is simply based on east and central africa, over the past 40 odd years. What I have seen from the 70's in that region, is largely due to fuelwood use not plantation or palm oil plantation activity. It may well be not the case in asia especially indonesia/ southeast asia, where much of the study is based. Richard Stanley On Jan 16, 2014, at 1:50 PM, Samer Abdelnour wrote: Hi Richard, Thanks for sharing your experience, and the specific parameters in the context within which you work. Can you contextualize what you mean when you suggest industrial/agriculture logging is a 'one time thing'? I'd be keen to learn more. As Crispin suggests, there are very lucrative incentives for organizations that depend on the rhetoric that stoves are a panacea for some of the world's greatest problems. We are all aware that some very large players, from private companies to NGOs support stoves for their ability to generate profits and resources for humanitarian programming. Certainly, the 'stoves reduces rape' rhetoric has mobilized political advocacy, fundraising efforts, prize monies, and supported humanitarian industry efforts in Darfur and elsewhere. In a soon to be published article, I document other motivations for the construction of this rhetoric. The link is provided below for anyone interested. My suggestion that the fuel-efficient stove as a solution to major problems is mythology is something I take very seriously. As you are all aware, stoves are a relatively straightforward technology. By this I mean that they are intended, through combustion, to produce heat. With this heat they cook. The more efficient the design, the less fuel Y required to cook X. Straightforward, causal logic. However, to extend the causality between Y and significantly complex problems such as sexual violence and deforestation requires a number of constructed narratives that verge on myth. For example, in the case of sexual violence the lives of (mostly poor African) displaced women are relegated to having two domestic roles: collecting wood and cooking. In addition, women are suggested as being safe in camps (wherever these may be), while outside they are exposed to violence. These are highly disingenuous and relegate the vulnerabilities and complexities of violence. Yet, with these taken as true, the reduction of Y fuel to produce X food can prevent rape. It is assumed that through the simple act of cooking, women can protect themselves. All NGOs might do is test whether or not women leave the camp less frequently, and the rest of the narratives fall into place. In the mentioned paper, I point to numerous reports that suggest why these narratives are fallacies. A western analogy. In recent years, a number of police officials (i.e. Toronto, New York, etc.) suggested that women who wear short skirts provoke violence. Activist groups responded with global 'slut walks'; I've yet to see NGOs start handing out pants as a technology to prevent the rape of skirt-wearing women. The narratives suggesting that the poorest and most vulnerable people have the agency to solve the world's greatest problems - deforestation, violence, carbon pollution - through simple act of cooking is very dangerous. I believe this puts an unruly burden on the shoulders of poor women. These again depend on a whole slew of imagined narratives that assume away complex reality in order hold poor women as capable of solving these problems. Further, this implicitly suggests the act of cooking is also responsible for these problems, and not major industries, or excessive energy consumption/consumerism of the world's industrialized middle class. Of course, I'm not knocking the importance of stove innovations and their relation to real-world problems. However, I believe the same methodological accountability applied in developing and testing stoves (which you all take great care in) should be held to the extraordinary claims NGOs and advocacy groups are applying to them. For those of you interested, the link to the paper is below, which details the construction of the 'stoves reduce rape' narrative and some of the implications I suggest above. Always happy for feedback and discussion. Warmly, Samer https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259104849_Technologizing_Humanitarian_Space_Darfur_Advocacy_and_the_Rape-Stove_Panacea/file/60b7d529fb1e6ecbd5.pdf?origin=publication_detail ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
Re: [Stoves] Forestry and Fuel
Samer and list: 1. For others, I recommend a shortened version of Dr. Abdelnour' paper (and possibly his thesis) at: http://www.growinginclusivemarkets.org/media/publications/case_study_of_fuel_efficient_stoves_for_darfur.pdf Interesting comments by Dr. Ashok Gadgil and Crispin. Crispin says there that designing a stove is very complicated - and I agree. Dr. Samer says the opposite below (As you are all aware, stoves are a relatively straightforward technology.) 2. Also I found a Ppt that is easier reading: https://www.google.com/search?q=abdelnour+stove+pptoq=abdelnour+stove+pptaqs=chrome..69i57.27083j0j4sourceid=chromeespv=210es_sm=91ie=UTF-8 and then pick the third entry. 3. I believe Dr. Abdelnour is correct in criticizing the way the Darfur stove program was handled. I worked in Sudan (for USAID) 30 years ago and can tell you there are many talented people there who were presumably left out of the process of providing a solution to the cooking problem in Darfur. I have talked to some of those friends on this Darfur stove situation since. I am sure that one or more International NGOs didn’t do well - but I don’t know any of those details. There was probably also some fault due Sudanese government officials who didn’t want to turn down donor help. I helped start this list in 1995 solely because of the way the enormous use of charcoal has ruined Sudan. If there is a country more hurt by charcoal use, I hope someone will point it out. The reason - most all the land is owned by the government. No incentives for anyone to plant trees. I hope we can hear more on some of this - but I am finding no fault with Dr. Samer’s criticism of using rape as a sales point. 4. However, to the best of my knowledge this rape subject has come up only three times on this list. Twice for rape seed and once in connection with a solar cooker (where I think the use of solar cooking might have some relevance to this rape issue). We have had dozens of messages about the criteria for a good stove. I don’t think the word rape was used once - and if it had, I believe it would have been laughed down. 5. I think Dr. Samer’s paper fails to give enough attention to health issues - which for many years was the key reason for talking about stoves and many continue - especially at GACC (Dr. Kirk Smith influence). Same of course for climate and deforestation (char-making) issues. 6. It is not clear to me whether Dr. Samer is being critical of GACC and Hillary Clinton’s role - but I think that is misplaced, if there is criticism there. 7. Mostly though I hope he will explain more on his apparent criticism of stove designer’s emphasis on efficiency. Maybe also of char-making stoves. I think it a tall stretch to say that a very few stove entrepreneur’s pushing stoves for rape-prevention reasons is reason to condemn all efforts of the stove community (a lot on this list) of doing the wrong things for efficiency and climate reasons. Here is the paragraph below, where I am not agreeing with any of the four sentences: The narratives suggesting that the poorest and most vulnerable people have the agency to solve the world's greatest problems - deforestation, violence, carbon pollution - through simple act of cooking is very dangerous. I believe this puts an unruly burden on the shoulders of poor women. These again depend on a whole slew of imagined narratives that assume away complex reality in order hold poor women as capable of solving these problems. Further, this implicitly suggests the act of cooking is also responsible for these problems, and not major industries, or excessive energy consumption/consumerism of the world's industrialized middle class. Ron On Jan 16, 2014, at 12:50 PM, Samer Abdelnour samer.abdeln...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Richard, Thanks for sharing your experience, and the specific parameters in the context within which you work. Can you contextualize what you mean when you suggest industrial/agriculture logging is a 'one time thing'? I'd be keen to learn more. As Crispin suggests, there are very lucrative incentives for organizations that depend on the rhetoric that stoves are a panacea for some of the world's greatest problems. We are all aware that some very large players, from private companies to NGOs support stoves for their ability to generate profits and resources for humanitarian programming. Certainly, the 'stoves reduces rape' rhetoric has mobilized political advocacy, fundraising efforts, prize monies, and supported humanitarian industry efforts in Darfur and elsewhere. In a soon to be published article, I document other motivations for the construction of this rhetoric. The link is provided below for anyone interested. My suggestion that the fuel-efficient stove as a solution to major problems is mythology is something I take very seriously. As you are all aware, stoves are a relatively
Re: [Stoves] Forestry and fuel
Ron, Teddy et all concerned with the Samer's cited FAO report. Impressive data sources but it seems to be contrary to my own experience for what its worth. Having lived in Malawi, Tanzania, Uganda and Kenya for many years, in the 70's then revisiting for extended periods all of these locations in the first decade of the 2000's I have seen the effects of wood use -primarily for fuel - and it is substantial, and not pretty. Here in mezzo America now it is more widely reported that it is the expansion of large scale industrial agriculture and biofuel farming that is tearing apart natural forest lands..fine but the destruction of traditional forested land for industrial agriculture is a one time thing.. The steady depletion of the forests, due to, primarily, fuelwood demand in MAlawi Kenya and Tanzania especially is not only ongoing but expanding with population growth. The notion of a fuelwood ladder aside, the demographic of the expansion of the mass population in the developing nations favors, sadly, the growth of the more marginalized, less educated, less well employed and more fuelwood dependent segments of the population. Almost everywhere I look I see this to be the case. Their desperation for fuelwood and decent income at large, is only exacerbated by industrial agriculture and biofuel farming. If this is the case, I fail to see how we are not are going to be with fuelwood dependency for a long time to come. Personally, I see no less use of wood/charcoal to day than I did in the 70's at lease in amongst the mass population in the mentioned countries. Kind regards, Richard Stanley www.legcayfound.org On Jan 14, 2014, at 1:11 PM, Ronal W. Larson wrote: Teddy: 1. Thanks for the cite below. Slide #36 implies that FAO is not doing a very credible job in reporting on charcoal consumption. Off by a factor of about 100 (that is 10,000% error). I was pleased to see the FAO report cite by Samer yesterday (given below). Now I am not so sure. Can anyone defend the FAO data collection effort on charcoal? 2. The slideshow refers to a special 2013 issue of ESD on charcoal. Looks good, but I haven’t had a chance yet to see if my library carries it for free. Anyone able to comment on what that issue is saying about deforestation? 3. Returning to your recent response about your own char-making stoves not being accepted. It seemed you might have been testing a stove where the char was both made and used in the same stove. TLUD proponents would say that is not likely to work. Can you clarify on what type of char-making/using stove you were producing? Ron On Jan 13, 2014, at 11:02 PM, Cookswell Jikos cookswellji...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Samer, Thanks for sharing, but if indeed this is fully the case, I wonder why the reduction of deforestation features so heavily on most cookstove marketing pitches. (even mine sometimes!) Further interesting reading that somewhat supports this is a very good presentation done by ICRAF recently, that is aptly titled, What Happened to the Charcoal Crisis http://www.slideshare.net/agroforestry/miyuki-iiyamaicrafcharcoal-review2013 It is a very good systematic review of many other woodfuel papers in East Africa. It seems to be that on farm woodfuel is becoming more and more of income generating wood energy source. All the best, Teddy Cookswell Jikos www.cookswell.co.ke www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com Mobile: +254 700 380 009 Mobile: +254 700 905 913 P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 9:31 PM, Samer Abdelnour samer.abdeln...@gmail.com wrote: Dear all, Just to contribute on the deforestation discussion. A dated (1997) by excellent resource by the FAO, which concluded that deforestation occurs mainly as a result of pressures for agricultural land, logging, and national infrastructure projects, not for cooking. http://www.fao.org/docrep/w7744e/w7744e06.htm Of course, I applaud efforts to source cleaner, more sustainable fuel. Perhaps these should be grounded in location specific challenges (i.e. community nurseries), not distorted by general mythologies associated with global problems and magic bullets. Best, Samer ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
Re: [Stoves] Forestry and fuel
Dear Teddy Samer has been investigating the realities behind certain memes about stoves and the fact is that certain narrow aspects of a total situation echo better in an empty chamber so the context, or a lot of it, is removed to highlight what people want heard most. Unfortunately these things have a habit of getting away on their own as 'memes' and evolve in their own way, whether wanted or unwanted. 'Deforestation' is a popular catchall - how can anyone be in favour of deforestation!?! So it is a hook on which other arguments can be hung. Get'm to agree about deforestation then slip in our plea for funds. You know. The fact is there are areas, large ones, where deforestation is not a problem but when planning projects in them, one is forced to mention it because 'it is the thing to do'. There are other areas which are seriously damaged. One of the principal causes of deforestation in the East is the drive for production of 'biofuels' from bio-oils. The Singapore smog in 2013 was directly caused by this (subsidised) biofuel industry's rapacious destruction of virgin jungle in Indonesia, an industry funded and supported by European and Chinese anti-CO2 interests (and robber barons of course). Some point to commercial logging (for any product) as the cause. Well, charcoal is a commercial product - a processed biomass that is produced commercially. Once business gets involved they can scale up the cutting. Areas affected by charcoal for domestic use are around Maputo, Lubumbashi and Lusaka which have road networks that make trips of 600 km viable. Dakar is another. The thing that surprises me most is the effort made to demonise charcoal biofuel instead of spending that energy on increasing the available resource as Rwanda has done, making charcoal 'just another crop' that people grow and sell. Charcoal does not have to be smoky or destructive or evil. And it is not necessary to make it in a stove though it can be. It can be made efficiently on a commercial basis. There is no reason to waste energy of any kind. However energy conservation takes place in a realistic context. Individuals and groups persist in tweaking their arguments to favour their particular version of reality or technology or stove. I don't mind that they do it, but I don't hand over the Deed to the Ranch just because they say so. Regards Crispin Dear Samer, Thanks for sharing, but if indeed this is fully the case, I wonder why the reduction of deforestation features so heavily on most cookstove marketing pitches. (even mine sometimes!) Further interesting reading that somewhat supports this is a very good presentation done by ICRAF recently, that is aptly titled, What Happened to the Charcoal Crisis http://www.slideshare.net/agroforestry/miyuki-iiyamaicrafcharcoal-review2013 It is a very good systematic review of many other woodfuel papers in East Africa. It seems to be that on farm woodfuel is becoming more and more of income generating wood energy source. All the best, Teddy ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
Re: [Stoves] Forestry and fuel
Colince, Thats curous to me because what I have always read and observed is that taken in the long term, 70% of the wood is cut for fuelwood use for cooking in Africa and much of asia as well. It may be that the first tie aq land is cleared i is used as you say but these uses aside form biofuel feed cultivation are less frequent uses of the wood, whereas fuelwood cooking is an ongoing depletion. But what do you mean by biofuel feedstock cultivation via a vis deforestation? Kind regards, Richard Stanley www.legacyfound.org On Jan 14, 2014, at 4:20 AM, Nguelo C wrote: Yeah you are right! Deforestation occurs here in central AFRICA especially for wood for construction, agriculture and biofuel feedstock cultivation. wood for cooking commes after all others activities! Cheers, Colince Nguelo Cameroon On Monday, January 13, 2014 7:31 PM, Samer Abdelnour samer.abdeln...@gmail.com wrote: Dear all, Just to contribute on the deforestation discussion. A dated (1997) by excellent resource by the FAO, which concluded that deforestation occurs mainly as a result of pressures for agricultural land, logging, and national infrastructure projects, not for cooking. http://www.fao.org/docrep/w7744e/w7744e06.htm Of course, I applaud efforts to source cleaner, more sustainable fuel. Perhaps these should be grounded in location specific challenges (i.e. community nurseries), not distorted by general mythologies associated with global problems and magic bullets. Best, Samer ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
Re: [Stoves] Forestry and fuel
Teddy: 1. Thanks for the cite below. Slide #36 implies that FAO is not doing a very credible job in reporting on charcoal consumption. Off by a factor of about 100 (that is 10,000% error). I was pleased to see the FAO report cite by Samer yesterday (given below). Now I am not so sure. Can anyone defend the FAO data collection effort on charcoal? 2. The slideshow refers to a special 2013 issue of ESD on charcoal. Looks good, but I haven’t had a chance yet to see if my library carries it for free. Anyone able to comment on what that issue is saying about deforestation? 3. Returning to your recent response about your own char-making stoves not being accepted. It seemed you might have been testing a stove where the char was both made and used in the same stove. TLUD proponents would say that is not likely to work. Can you clarify on what type of char-making/using stove you were producing? Ron On Jan 13, 2014, at 11:02 PM, Cookswell Jikos cookswellji...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Samer, Thanks for sharing, but if indeed this is fully the case, I wonder why the reduction of deforestation features so heavily on most cookstove marketing pitches. (even mine sometimes!) Further interesting reading that somewhat supports this is a very good presentation done by ICRAF recently, that is aptly titled, What Happened to the Charcoal Crisis http://www.slideshare.net/agroforestry/miyuki-iiyamaicrafcharcoal-review2013 It is a very good systematic review of many other woodfuel papers in East Africa. It seems to be that on farm woodfuel is becoming more and more of income generating wood energy source. All the best, Teddy Cookswell Jikos www.cookswell.co.ke www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com Mobile: +254 700 380 009 Mobile: +254 700 905 913 P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 9:31 PM, Samer Abdelnour samer.abdeln...@gmail.com wrote: Dear all, Just to contribute on the deforestation discussion. A dated (1997) by excellent resource by the FAO, which concluded that deforestation occurs mainly as a result of pressures for agricultural land, logging, and national infrastructure projects, not for cooking. http://www.fao.org/docrep/w7744e/w7744e06.htm Of course, I applaud efforts to source cleaner, more sustainable fuel. Perhaps these should be grounded in location specific challenges (i.e. community nurseries), not distorted by general mythologies associated with global problems and magic bullets. Best, Samer ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
Re: [Stoves] Forestry and fuel
Dear Ron (and others) Can anyone defend the FAO data collection effort on charcoal? Not really 'defend' but the FAO tends to collect data only on commercial use of biomass. They report logging and sales but will miss informal personal use, often. James Robinson might have something to add on this. We largely used their data once to write an analysis of fuel consumption in several countries. It seemed you might have been testing a stove where the char was both made and used in the same stove. TLUD proponents would say that is not likely to work. We should not underestimate what a TLUD can burn. The fact is yes, there are those whose products can't burn the char but there are other devices that can. Any fuel can be burned in a TLUD from Alcohol to Zebrawood. Regards Crispin ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
Re: [Stoves] Forestry and fuel
Dear Samer, Thanks for sharing, but if indeed this is fully the case, I wonder why the reduction of deforestation features so heavily on most cookstove marketing pitches. (even mine sometimes!) Further interesting reading that somewhat supports this is a very good presentation done by ICRAF recently, that is aptly titled, What Happened to the Charcoal Crisis http://www.slideshare.net/agroforestry/miyuki-iiyamaicrafcharcoal-review2013 It is a very good systematic review of many other woodfuel papers in East Africa. It seems to be that on farm woodfuel is becoming more and more of income generating wood energy source. All the best, Teddy *Cookswell Jikos* www.cookswell.co.ke www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com Mobile: +254 700 380 009 Mobile: +254 700 905 913 P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 9:31 PM, Samer Abdelnour samer.abdeln...@gmail.comwrote: Dear all, Just to contribute on the deforestation discussion. A dated (1997) by excellent resource by the FAO, which concluded that deforestation occurs mainly as a result of pressures for agricultural land, logging, and national infrastructure projects, not for cooking. http://www.fao.org/docrep/w7744e/w7744e06.htm Of course, I applaud efforts to source cleaner, more sustainable fuel. Perhaps these should be grounded in location specific challenges (i.e. community nurseries), not distorted by general mythologies associated with global problems and magic bullets. Best, Samer ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
Re: [Stoves] Forestry and fuel
Charcoal making for iron production got blamed for early deforestation too. The truth is that most of the trees grown for charcoal back then were on plantations which were replanted or coppiced. In the USA most deforestation was encouraged by the railroads to raise cattle for their markets. It was easy money to clear the land, sell the timber to buy fence and cattle and then sit back and tend the herd for profit. Dan Dimiduk In a message dated 1/13/2014 1:31:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, samer.abdeln...@gmail.com writes: Dear all, Just to contribute on the deforestation discussion. A dated (1997) by excellent resource by the FAO, which concluded that deforestation occurs mainly as a result of pressures for agricultural land, logging, and national infrastructure projects, not for cooking. http://www.fao.org/docrep/w7744e/w7744e06.htm Of course, I applaud efforts to source cleaner, more sustainable fuel. Perhaps these should be grounded in location specific challenges (i.e. community nurseries), not distorted by general mythologies associated with global problems and magic bullets. Best, Samer ___ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
