[biofuel] County Board gives the OK for ethanol plant.

2002-03-28 Thread Harmon Seaver

 The Winnebago County (Wisconsin) board voted 20-16 to permit the 
rezoning required for the new ethanol plant, despite the opposition of 
the Oshkosh Chamber of Commerce and some other backwards looking locals. 
  Here's a website put up by one of the people opposing it, it's quite 
amusing.

http://www.execpc.com/~tubaharp/ethanol.html

 Note that they quote the Pimental study. Check out the safety 
section for a good laugh.


-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com


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Re: [biofuel] Think People!

2002-03-28 Thread r . p . kurz

 I am,therefore I think .  atleast i think so.
  roger
 I'm not. It's been too long of a day and I'm tired. Neat quotes though.
 
 Steve Spence
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 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 - Original Message -
 From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 9:48 PM
 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Think People!
 
 
  Okay...I give up...
 
  Who here is not thinking?
 
  Todd Swearingen
 
  - Original Message -
  From: binarydarkfall
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 9:31 PM
  Subject: [biofuel] Think People!
 
 
  What luck for rulers, that men do not think.
  - Adolf Hitler.
 
  Hitler was an evil man and I shouldn't give him any credit for
  anything he said because of his atrocities; however he is a genious
  compared to the average ignorant American. He is right in this quote,
  and the masses will suffer again unless people start to fucking
  think!!! Don't be apathetic now is NOT the time!
 
  I don't know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but
  World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. - Albert Einstein
 
  A good genious this time, and if you are too dense to figure out what
  he means is that if there is a third world war we will blast
  ourselves back into the stone age.
 
  -Philip
 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
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Re: [biofuel] Think People!

2002-03-28 Thread Douglas Costello

Groucho Marx said you have to get up early in the morning , to get out of
bed.
Maybe someone slept in and is grumpy.

Douglas

- Original Message -
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2002 13:48
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Think People!


 Okay...I give up...

 Who here is not thinking?

 Todd Swearingen

 - Original Message -
 From: binarydarkfall
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 9:31 PM
 Subject: [biofuel] Think People!


 What luck for rulers, that men do not think.
 - Adolf Hitler.

 Hitler was an evil man and I shouldn't give him any credit for
 anything he said because of his atrocities; however he is a genious
 compared to the average ignorant American. He is right in this quote,
 and the masses will suffer again unless people start to fucking
 think!!! Don't be apathetic now is NOT the time!

 I don't know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but
 World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. - Albert Einstein

 A good genious this time, and if you are too dense to figure out what
 he means is that if there is a third world war we will blast
 ourselves back into the stone age.

 -Philip

 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Unite and Revolt!


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Re: [biofuel] Think People!

2002-03-28 Thread Greg and April

I think I am.  

Does that count?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 02:30
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Think People!


 I am,therefore I think .  atleast i think so.
   roger



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Re: Fw: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota

2002-03-28 Thread Greg and April

Go for it!

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 00:03
Subject: Re: Fw: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota


 Or should I legally change my name to 'None of the Above' and run for 
 President?
 
 Motie



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Re: Fw: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota

2002-03-28 Thread Harmon Seaver

On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 07:03:36AM -, motie_d wrote:
 They agree that by law, they have to buy the power. It's meeting the 
 equipment specs that seemingly can't be done. No one has yet 
 connected to them, so they have done NO studies as to what will be 
 needed to satisfy them, that I am not creating a hazard to them or 
 their customers. They have NO specs for intertie, and any cost to 
 conduct a study is to be born by me, with NO estimate of cost or time 
 needed. I won't sign a blank check like that.

   That's why you need to have an attorney talk to them -- they are just giving 
you the run around, hoping
you'll go away. But first I would set up the system, with an induction 
motor/generator and a relay to
insure that if the grid goes down, it disconnects (yes, the induction motor 
will do that anyway, but
having the relay ends any arguement from them), run it, make sure it works as 
designed (just run the meter
backwards for short trials, they'll never know the difference), then have the 
lawyer read the law to them
and if they don't comply, sue them. I don't see anything in the MN law that 
says *you* have to pay for any
study done by them.
   Have the setup all ready to go, have the lawyer tell them you are simply 
going to put it on line,
whether they like it or not and if they don't start paying, they'll be sued, 
and make sure it's the
individuals being sued, not just the utility. 


 They did tell me that they only need to allow me to put enough power 
 back into the grid to negate my monthly household power Bill. Any 
 more than a 'break-even point', and I would most likely be donating 
 it to them.

   See, that's just BS -- once again, having a lawyer talk to them will put an 
end to their attempts to BS
you. 

  Best case scenario is that they MAY pay me the 'avoided 
 cost' of their purchase price for power, which is currently $.02 Kw.
 
   That's true if your generating capacity is 40kw and over. If it's under 
40kw, the MN law is very
clear that they have no choice but to pay you full retail rate. Well, that 
applies if it's renewable fuel, or
natural gas and a cogen. 

Here's the MN statute.

http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/216B/164.html



-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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Re: [biofuel] Think People!

2002-03-28 Thread Appal Energy

I think...Therefore I could be wrong.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: Greg and April 
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Think People!


I think I am.  

Does that count?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 02:30
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Think People!


 I am,therefore I think .  atleast i think so.
   roger



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[biofuel] Re: Think People!

2002-03-28 Thread Alan S. Petrillo

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
 
  I am,therefore I think .  atleast i think so.
   roger

I think not. said DesCartes.  And disappeared.  


AP
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[biofuel] Biofuels.ca

2002-03-28 Thread Neoteric Biofuels Inc.

 We are back online and will be adding more capability for credit card
payments, via the ÒKagiÓ service and the ÒPayPalÓ service shortly. This
process has started and the VEG-Therm is the first product linked to those
services.  (we are now out of stock, but more on the way, so it could be 3-4
weeks delivery, as far as I can tell right now).

Thanks for your patience and suggestions from some list members that we get
going on adding online payment. If there is an item that we need to add for
you quickly, let me know and I can jump over to that one and get it listed.

Regards,


Edward Beggs
www.biofuels.ca







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Re: [biofuel] Re: Think People!

2002-03-28 Thread milliontc

To think, or not to think, that is the question. However, no man is 
an island. Don't ask for whom the bell tolls...
Ho dear. I can't think of the last line???
J

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RE: [biofuel] Re: Think People!

2002-03-28 Thread kirk

Ask not For whom the bell tolls
It tolls for thee.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 1:08 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Think People!


To think, or not to think, that is the question. However, no man is 
an island. Don't ask for whom the bell tolls...
Ho dear. I can't think of the last line???
J


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Re: Fw: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota

2002-03-28 Thread motie_d

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
That's why you need to have an attorney talk to them -- they are 
just giving you the run around, hoping
 you'll go away. But first I would set up the system, with an 
induction motor/generator and a relay to
 insure that if the grid goes down, it disconnects (yes, the 
induction motor will do that anyway, but
 having the relay ends any arguement from them), run it, make sure 
it works as designed (just run the meter
 backwards for short trials, they'll never know the difference), 
then have the lawyer read the law to them
 and if they don't comply, sue them. I don't see anything in the MN 
law that says *you* have to pay for any
 study done by them.
Have the setup all ready to go, have the lawyer tell them you 
are simply going to put it on line,
 whether they like it or not and if they don't start paying, they'll 
be sued, and make sure it's the
 individuals being sued, not just the utility. 

I don't have the money personally to put the project together. The 
Financier wants to know how much it's going to cost to install and 
run, before he hands over the money. I need to know what equipment is 
needed to intertie and meet the Utility specs, before I can figure in 
equipment and setup costs. A Canadian competitor is also trying to 
get the project. I'm confident I can provide the site and the 
feedstock for less than the Canadian can, and probably can beat him 
on cost of fabricating the gasifier and gas treatment. Without a 
written agreement with the Utility, I'm left hanging. I probably 
can't beat the Canadian if I have to spend money to create a load.
A 100HP electric motor with an airplane propellor is probably the 
cheapest load I can create. It won't pay, and I not only dislike 
wasting the power, but every little bit of money coming in, makes my 
project closer to self-sustaining, and longer lasting for testing 
purposes.
With a 100Kw unit, if I could get $.07Kw for the first 40Kw, and the 
$.02 avoiding cost for 60Kw, that would come to $40/hr.
If I could work out the details, and get paid for Peaking Power, I 
could actually come out ahead.


  
That's true if your generating capacity is 40kw and over. If 
it's under 40kw, the MN law is very
 clear that they have no choice but to pay you full retail rate. 
Well, that applies if it's renewable fuel, or
 natural gas and a cogen. 

 I'd be using bark and sawdust, so it would definitely be renewable. 
I'm also trying to work with a commercial customer to install as a 
back-up generator. Maybe that angle of attack can get me hooked up, 
particularly with the Peaking Power potential.

 
 Here's the MN statute.
 
 http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/216B/164.html

Thanks
 
 
 
 -- 
 Harmon Seaver 
 CyberShamanix
 http://www.cybershamanix.com

Motie


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Re: [biofuel] Re: Think People!

2002-03-28 Thread Keith Addison

To think, or not to think, that is the question. However, no man is
an island. Don't ask for whom the bell tolls...
Ho dear. I can't think of the last line???
J

To be or not to be, those are the parameters...

I know you can indeed think of the last line, James, but still:

No man is an Island, intire of itselfe; every man is a peece of the 
Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, 
Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if 
a Manor of thy friends or of thine owne were; any mans death 
diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never 
send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.

Keith


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Re: [biofuel] Re: Think People!

2002-03-28 Thread milliontc

To be or not to be, those are the parameters...

I know you can indeed think of the last line, James, but still:

No man is an Island, intire of itselfe; every man is a peece of the 
Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the 
Sea, 
Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if 
a Manor of thy friends or of thine owne were; any mans death 
diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore 
never 
send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.

Enough said, me finks.
J



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Re: [biofuel] Re: Livestock role in agriculture

2002-03-28 Thread Keith Addison

Hello Roger, Neal

... and thankyou. I was reading something about the amazing lengths 
people will go to to protect a cherished notion, reality or no 
reality. I guess we all do that to a degree. But reality's that stuff 
that gets up and fetches you a mighty kick in the butt at the worst 
possible moment if you try to pretend it ain't there. Folks do seem 
to get away with it, but I always get the kick in the butt, to hell 
with cherished notions.

Anyways, we were talking about Dear Dr Pimental  and the need to 
address the good citizens of Winnebago on the why's and wherefore's 
of ethanol so at least they can make an informed decision rather than 
a spun one.
http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=12693list=BIOFUEL

Any takers?

Best

Keith

keith, i too applaud your stance. one has only to look
at the marvel of creation around us , to come to the
conclusion that plants and animals are symbiotic partners
in the global ecosystem. how someone can argue otherwise
baffles me.
 regards,roger
  Keith,   I applaud your sensible stand on the issue of livestock.
 
  ...there is no sustainable way of raising plants without animals. There
  is no traditional farming system that doesn't used animals, and never
  has been. It just doesn't work - soil fertility sooner or later
  fails, and then everything else fails too. Likewise in nature mixed
  farming is the rule, plants are always found with animals. God can't
  do it, and neither can we.
 
  It's absolutely no use trying to argue with these people - it's not
  rational, it's a moral crusade, and if you don't agree, then you're
  the enemy.
 
  Working in the field of sustainable agriculture puts me up 
against this issue
  almost daily.  It is amazing what conclusions a closed mind can come to.
 
  Neal Van Milligen


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RE: Fw: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota

2002-03-28 Thread kirk

They don't want you hooking into the grid.
There is discussion on this topic at distributed generation.


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The members that represent power companies say other customers have to pay
more because of you.
They flat don't want you on line.

Couldn't you electrolyze water and self pressurize a bottle for sale to
welding suppliers?
Oxygen too. All you need is a drier. The cell should generate all the
pressure you need.
No expensive pump/compressor needed, just a batch electrolyses.

Where can I buy a 500watt hydrogen fuel cell?
Where can I buy a hydrogen stove/oven?
How about hydrogen lights similar to gas lights with a mantle and globe?

Any good info on this stuff?
I think forget the utility co if at all possible.
They are a source of trouble.

Kirk



-Original Message-
From: motie_d [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 2:35 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Fw: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota


--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


   The regs here are being redone this year tho, and there's hope
that they will raise the limit.

And install some intelligence too? Or is that too much to hope for?
In my dream world, the next step that needs doing is to get some type
of accountability for the Bureaucrats.
There are SO many regulations we are required to follow, but no
incentive for the papershufflers to shuffle their papers in a timely
manner.
If someone asks me what time it is, I naturally look at my watch.
They naturally look at their calendar!


 --
 Harmon Seaver
 CyberShamanix
 http://www.cybershamanix.com

Motie



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