Re: [biofuels-biz] A nice story
Nice one, Merry Christmas. - Original Message - From: David Teal [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 9:26 PM Subject: [biofuels-biz] A nice story One of my customers for biodiesel is a musician. He decided to build a new recording studio behind his house. First job was to excavate for the foundations. Being a Brit. and careful with money, he hired a small digger and had 6 friends come round with wheelbarrows to shift the surplus earth. On the first day, they all complained about the choking diesel fumes from the digger. The second day, the musician syphoned biodiesel out from the tank of his car and used that to re-fuel the digger. The 6 friends were very happy (but still complained that they felt hungry). The digger didn't seem to notice any difference. True. David T. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] world bank's dirty mining revealed in new report
http://www.foei.org/media/2003/1208.html foei press release friends of the earth international world bank's dirty mining revealed in new report The Report is Embargoed until 00.01h GMT on Dec. 11, 2003 and now available for preview by journalists at www.foei.org/media/2003/handsoff.html december 11, 2003, Washington (US) / Lisbon (Portugal) -- A new report released today at the final meeting of a World Bank review on extractive industries (December 11-13, Lisbon) reveals the devastating and irreversible social and environmental impacts of public financing for the fossil fuels and mining sectors. The report, 'Hands Off: Why International Financial Institutions Should Stop Drilling, Piping and Mining' is released at a groundbreaking meeting in Lisbon where communities, indigenous people and representatives of Non-Governmental Organisations discuss the impacts of extractive industries with the World Bank. This meeting is the final episode of the two year Extractive Industries Review (EIR) of the World Bank. The new report describes global and local resistance to large-scale mining projects funded by international financial institutions through 11 case studies, and was published by Friends of the Earth International, the world's largest grassroots environmental network. Case studies include notorious pipelines like the Chad-Cameroon and Baku-Ceyhan oil pipelines, and projects that are currently under consideration at financial institutions including a major copper mine in Laos. The World Bank's independent Extractive Industries Review [1] recommends that the Bank stop financing all coal and oil projects in developing countries. In addition, it calls for human rights protection and the right to prior and informed consent for communities. Many of the EIR recommendations point to an important shift away from traditional support to the extractive industries and are likely to meet with strong resistance from the Bank's shareholder countries. It is very significant that the harmful and dangerous effects of investments in oil, mining and gas are acknowledged by the World Bank, whose investments are supposed to alleviate poverty, said in Lisbon Janneke Bruil of Friends of the Earth International. The World Bank should adopt these recommendations without delay and also take firm steps to end financing of large scale mining, she added. Even the World Bank Extractive Industries Review acknowledges that the benefits of oil, mining and gas projects are often questionable, said Nur Hidayati of Friends of the Earth Indonesia (WALHI) in Jakarta. There is much evidence that the extractive industries violate indigenous peoples' rights and are associated with loss of livelihoods and climate change. she added. This week, in Lisbon, Portugal, civil society and other interest groups will discuss ways to ensure that the Bank implements the EIR's recommendations. The report will be formally presented to World Bank President James Wolfensohn in late December. The Board of the World Bank will decide whether to adopt the EIR recommendations at the end of March. For more information contact In Washington: Carol Welch, Friends of the Earth US +1-202-7837400 or +1-202-222-0719 (mobile) In Lisbon: (Portugal) Janneke Bruil, Friends of the Earth International +31-6-52118998 (mobile) In Indonesia: Nur Hidayati of Friends of the Earth Indonesia (WALHI) in Jakarta +62-21-79193363 or +62-812-9972642 (mobile) NOTES TO EDITORS: [1] the Extractive Industries report is available at www.eireview.org friends of the earth international secretariat po box 19199, 1000 gd amsterdam, the netherlands tel: 31 20 622 1369. fax: 31 20 639 2181. e-mail us http://www.foei.org/about/contacts.html http://www.foei.org/media/2003/handsoff.html foei media centre mining, hands off, part 1 read the pdf (722 Kb) http://www.foei.org/publications/pdfs/mining1lowres.pdf mining, hands off, part 2 read the pdf (443 Kb) http://www.foei.org/publications/pdfs/mining2lowres.pdf mining, hands off, part 3 read the pdf (487 Kb) http://www.foei.org/publications/pdfs/mining3lowres.pdf mining, hands off, part 4 read the pdf (460 Kb) http://www.foei.org/publications/pdfs/mining4lowres.pdf Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
[biofuels-biz] Re: Poppin'
ooh, tell us aobut vegtherm -lite. What is tha application- heating biodiesel lines, or is it an svo application still? Time for my Yearly Wintertime Retelling of the one single Berkeley Recycling gelled fuel story. They run 16 (garbage type) curbaide recycling trucks on B100 in Berkeley, and have been for three years with only 3 days of 'downtime' due to biodiesel fuel in all that time or a similar statistic which they like to flaunt aggressively. They got gelling in one truck one day at 6 am when the drivers start their vehicles. The fleet manager ran back into the office, grabbed the coffee pot, and poured the coffee over the fuel lines and pump. It allegedly got the truck ungelled enough to start. mark --- In biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com, Neoteric Biofuels Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bill: If you prefer to make popcorn with it, here is another method: A large pail of hot water from the tap; poured over the injection pump, injectors and lines. That'll get you started in about 2 minutes. Of course, we also offer the VEG-Therm and VEG-Therm Lite (16A max current draw) if you do need a heater for biodiesel or for SVO. Edward Beggs http://www.biofuels.ca On Sunday, December 14, 2003, at 02:48 PM, Bill Althouse wrote: It was 15 degrees yesterday, so my unconverted ( no fuel heater) 240D MB with B-100 wouldn't fire up. I noticed a old hot air popcorn popper in my goodie parts pile. I put it under the engine and went back to finish my coffee. 15 minutes later the 240 fired up like a summer day. Cool! Bill Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM - ~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuels-biz/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Fwd: I called the EPA today
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, skillshare [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I called Jim Caldwell at the EPA today to talk about the classification of biodiesel within the EPA registration process (ie whether it's classified as non-baseline or atypical), and to ask about the possible small business producer exemptions for Tier I/Tier II testing for EPA registration if it is classified as nonbaseline. He was very helpful and said that he gets a number of these calls and also that he had discussed the small producer issue with Joe Jobe of the NBB the previous week. The issue is this: onroad fuels are classified as baseline, non-baseline, or atypical by the EPA, and the EPA requires commercial producers to carry out various testing to prove health effects and emissions safety prior to being registered as a manufacturer of a fuel or fuel additive. Depending on the classification, there might be small business exemptions to some of the testing requirements. The cost of this testing or the alternative- joining the National Biodiesel Board for access to their EPA testing data, effectively bars smaller producers from being able to go into business making biodiesel for on-road use. This testing is very expensive- Tier I (literature review, and emissions testing) can cost up to $300,000 and Tier II (animal tests) can cost several million dollars. The National Biodiesel Board is the only entity that has carried out both of these rounds of testing as per the EPA requirements. Today, legally producing biodiesel for onroad use requires either spending several million dollars and several years to conduct a round of these tests, or joining the NBB for access to their data, (paying a $5,000 per year fee to the NBB, plus a production tax to the NBB for every gallon sold (or giving the NBB $100,000 as a non-member and hoping that they'll give it back to you by 2015 which they might not. In this way the NBB hopes to get back the money it spent on the Tier I and Tier II testing and the EPA supports them in this). There is a small business exemption from both Tier I/Tier II testing for just one of the categories, non-baseline. There is a different exemption for Tier II for smaller producers of the atypical category as well, although the slightly cheaper Tier I is still required. There are different definitions of `small producer' for the non-baseline exemption and the atypical exemption. IN the case of biodiesel, there has been some question over whether this fuel fits into the non-baseline category, or the atypical category (baseline category is essentially petroleum-specific). If it fits into the non-baseline category, small producers could be exempt from the burdensome cost of Tier I/Tier II testing or from the costs of joining the National Biodiesel Board, the only current alternative to conducting their own testing. It appears that biodiesel was originally intended to fall under the non-baseline category (from prior language in EPA documents). (Non-baseline describes a diesel fuel made containing more than 1% oxygen, which can be made from non-petroleum sources, contains nothing other than carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, sulfur, nitrogen, and contains less than .05% sulfur by weight. Biodiesel fits all of these criteria.) Unfortunately for biodiesel, the non-baseline classification also requires the fuel to conform to the PETROLEUM diesel standard, D-975-93. The properties of biodiesel fall outside of the D-975 standard in a few areas: the 90% distillation temperature (basically a spec to describe different grades of petrodiesel, irrelevant to biodiesel's operability in an engine or the emissions resulting), and viscosity. Anything not meeting baseline or non-baseline specifications, including the not meeting the D-975 standard for petrodiesel which biodiesel can not do, falls under another category, atypical. Jim Caldwell told me today that the reason why the EPA is now sticking to atypical categorisation of biodiesel, is due to the viscosity issue. Basically (my interpretation) they want testing to `prove' that the viscosity or other non-D-975 properties of biodiesel will not cause performance which leads to harmful emissions- they know all about how petrodiesel combusts when it has the D-975 properties, but they don't have the data to `prove' that biodiesel will behave the same way with a lower viscosity (and the fact that the NBB proved it to them is considered a sort of intellectual property of the NBB, so we can's just point to the NBB data without paying the NBB for use of the data). He said that in the early days of the writing of the regulations they (he?) were unaware of the viscosity distinctions between D-975 petrodiesel and biodiesel, and were willing to locate biodiesel in the non-baseline category, but more recently, since they have become aware of the viscosity differences, they believe it belongs in the atypical category
[biofuel] methanol source in arizona Re: New to Bio-Diesel, Need Methanol
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Boston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm looking for a place to buy methanol online? I found one place, I usually look in the phone book for wholesale gas distributors and for hot rod/performance places- sometimes racecar engine builders will order a drum or a pail for you, and sometimes you can just find an oil dealer who stocks it. I live in Phoenix, AZ and have only found 2 places that carry Bio and it's a bit expensive, like 3$/gallon Maybe someone on BioFuel Group knows a good place in AZ to buy Methanol? I used to buy methanol in Tucson at Don's Hot Rod Shop . It was $3 per gallon and they dispensed it into my own gas cans, so I didn't have to buy more than I used at one time. I'm sure you can find a local source. Maybe if you call Don's they';ll be able to tell you who their distributor is or tell you where to look in Phoenix? For really tiny test batches just buy the Heet or Pyroil brand of gas line antifreeze at the auto parts store (not Iso-Heet). It's 99% methanol and each bottle makes about 1 1/2 little liter batches, great for starting out. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] whoops, Correction!!! my bad Re: methanol recovery
Whoops, I screwed up my post to Todd about reverse reaction, and it's super confusing as a result. I said: Reverse reaction: I'm talking about Neutral from the infopop forum and others who have had glycerol completely disappear under the following conditions: Neutral was running methanol recovery experiment using a heated lab stirrer (stirred hot plate). He left it running for a few hours and came back to no methanol. and of course I instead meant: he came back to no glycerol ANd, furthermore, I didn't clarify that he was doing methanol recovery on both the glycerol and the biodiesel at once, not just on the biodiesel Sorry! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: methanol recovery before separation
I thought that the problem with excess methanol is that it's an atmospheric pollutant- Sure it is (ozone-forming, mainly, I think), but it's not just vapour - the liquid form doesn't do a whole lot of good when it gets into the groundwater. Maybe it'll get broken down in the soil first, if it reaches the soil first, if there's enough life in the soil, if there's any life in the soil. Especially when dissolved in the washwater there's no guarantee that it'll all evaporate before it does any further harm and will *only* be an atmospheric pollutant. When the weather's cold it hardly evaporates at all, not very volatile. that when we compost glycerol or somehow treat or release any wash water that contains volatile methanol, the methanol evaporates into the atmosphere and does some sort of damage there. If it's real composting rather than a soggy pile of putrescence, that is, if it's HOT (60C, 140F), I somehow doubt you'll have any methanol vapours getting as far as the atmosphere, it'll get eaten first. I think someone mentioned very recently on this list that the EPA would prosecute homebrewers due to the methanol discharge into the atmosphere (but can't afford to). We shouldn't be discharging any methanol into the atmosphere. Best Keith mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi again Todd As far as the wash-water's concerned, water hyacinths quite happily eat the first-wash water, methanol and all, clean it up nicely. Well, actually it's a mix of water hyacinths and two types of duckweed, about both of which there's much good information to be found at JtF: http://journeytoforever.org/edu_pond.html#duckweed http://journeytoforever.org/edu_pond.html#waterhyacinth The washwater is innocuous enough, apart from the methanol - no heavy metals or toxins, for instance, so the plants themselves remain usable. Both make excellent compost, and that's a satisfactory solution - not as satisfactory as reusing the excess methanol, but you are recycling it well. Aslo the plants break the stuff down, they're not full of methanol and lye, and still make good livestock feed. Best Keith Maud, I wouldn't consider the MeOH content in the biodiesel to be negligible. Not at all. Unfortunately, many others consider it so. Simplest method to determine the volume of MeOH that resides in the biodiesel and glycerol, as well as the volume that was consumed in reaction, is to measure the volumes of alcohol laden biodiesel and glycerol, evaporate the MeOH and then measure the remaining volumes of each. The easiest way, IMNSHO, to determine if the MeOH volume in the biodiesel fraction is negligible is to stick one's nose over a container and huff it. (Not advised, but the point being made should be easy enough to decipher.) Without removing the alcohol you've got a fluid that has a flashpoint essentially the same as methanol, rather than the rather safe flashpoint of biodiesel. To test that theory, take a piece of cotton wick, anchor it in a 6 ounce metal tomato paste can as if you're going to make a candle. Fill the can with MeOH laden biodiesel. Light the wick as if the can were an oil candle. Sit back and watch. Everything goes fine for a bit, that is until the fuel heats up to the boiling point of alcohol. Then you have a runaway alcohol torch. That's the same alochol that would normally get washed down someone's drain or flushed out into the back forty. The same stuff that a lot of people consider insignificant. We haven't yet taken any time to quantify the average volume of MeOH that remains in the biodiesel. But it is a safe bet that the ratio is consistent between the biodiesel and glycerol fractions no matter how much alcohol is originally used. The more alcohol used in the reaction, the more alcohol will remain in the biodiesel and end up in the wastewater stream if evaporation is not conducted prior. Most people have probably noticed that MeOH and biodiesel are completely miscible in each other in any volume. If a person is worried about the energy inputs required to recover the alcohol from the biodiesel, then they should be looking at insulation, heat recovery and renewable fuels for the energy inputs. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Maud Essen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation Todd, is the amount of methanol remaining in the methyl ester considered negligible? Is it possible to determine what percentage remains in the methyl ester and what percentage in the glycerol? Maud Lagonisa, The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, The reaction is not exactly reversible. Reversability would require the three
[biofuel] 86 mercedes w126?
I give up! I give up! I have been to all the BIO sites I can find. Benz sites too. I can't find a shred of information on the Mercedes 86 W126 300SDL in regard to Biodiesel conversion and reliability issues. On the same token, there was nothing I could find on the 77-85 W123 300D, which I thought strange, for there was many references made to W123s at various Biodiesel websites and forums. But I must be blind. Or losing it. I mean, is it me, or did Mercedes Benz use to have a page on their server addressing the subject of Biodiesel in W126s? I could have sworn they did. Them, or The MBCA. Or one of their chapter's sites. But I can't find the link on any of my computers. I fear the link might be on my WebTV account, still paid for, but not used for 2 years. Even though I don't want to lose those bookmarks, I rather buy an SUV and hack the catalytic converter off and drive around like that, than spend the time it takes to access WebTV. I may go to hell for Biodiesel crimes, but at least it won't be WebTV hell. Regardless, Thank God I have you folks to turn to instead. So, are there any sites devoted to Mercedes running BIO diesel? And does anyone know of a source of information in regard to the 86 Mercedes straight six turbo diesel engine? Whether it be in a W124 or W126? I'd like to run mine on SVO. Is this engine di or id? Are the sensitive rubber parts isolated to the fuel line, or is the $900 injector pump riddled with rubber bands? Can the injector pump on this engine be modified, meaning retarded, or is it non BIO convertible? Whereas I will have it crushed, and go out a buy a W123, and convert that instead. Are there actually people out there running W123s on straight SVO, unmodified? Can SVO be thinned with ethanol, or some other 'clean' additive, or any type of alcohol, or will the resulting mixture be too volatile, resulting in a torched Benz and torched brows? I mean, kerosene is added to diesel fuel in the winter. That is flammable. It was used a lot back in the 80's, and I don't recall ever seeing anyone fill up at a diesel/kerosine pump who had scorched eyebrows or a vehicle with a nuked hood with fried paint crumbling off in the breeze. Is there any 'over the supermarket counter' vegetable oil products that can be poured straight into the tank? Do clean SVOs such as raipseed, corn oil, etc., need 'still' modifying, or are these fine straight out or there package so long as all the filters and fuel line heaters have been added? I understand Biodiesel here is soy based, not as good for certain engines as raipseed. Any comments? Can I get my eco-paws on a jug of raipseed oil on this continent, or is there a law in the United States prohibiting seeds from being raiped? :-( I won't go near WVO. I am willing to spend a bit to get the car in proper order for using SVO. I am willing to spend more for the fuel, too. The goal here is 'green', not 'free'. Though I would like to keep cost down by doing it myself. Is an Elsbett kit absolutely necessary? On the other hand, is SVO much better than gas, in regard to pollution, once the injector pump is retarded a few degrees, or am I better off driving a late model Honda? Honda's engines run so clean, their 1975 Civic needed no catalytic converter to meet emission requirements. This at a time when all the European cars, including Mercedes, where choking on there emission controls. Lastly, can a catalytic converter from a gas fired vehicle be used on a Biodiesel conversion so long as one sticks to SVO, so no sulfur sticks to catalyst? There is no sulfur in SVO, no? And sulfur was the catalytic converter killer, no? Well, thanks for humoring me. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Biodiesel burns hotter or cooler?
Thankyou Matt Nice byte-sized rule: in a diesel leaner means cooler, richer means hotter. I'll forward your message. Thanks again. Best Keith Keith et al, I cannot explian why it is so but a compression engine is not the same as an ignition engine, meaning that in a diesel leaner means cooler, richer means hotter. So this may go to explaining a few things. Also wear as a product of conbustion temperature is one thing, biodiesel earns its stripes by lubricating better, and mainting its viscosity better as temperature rises prior to injection as well. By doing this it keeps all the fuel injection system better lubricated and hence the probable lower wear characteristics. I hope this is not repeating anyone else. Regards, Matt --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got this enquiry below, but it baffles my brain cell. Would the all-wise among us be able to shed the clear light of reason, if not unbaffle my brain cell? Thankyou! There is also this: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/28554/ Explanation for higher NOx emissions? Best Keith One thing, which is a bit strange (or not, read on) that I noticed, is that all data states that biodiesel burns hotter than dino. I drove on dino for 10 days, a habit of mine before each winter comes. The exhaust is nice and cool. Allegedly, bio is burning much leaner, it needs less oxygen, but is given the same mass of air as dino. Leaner flames burn hotter, i.e. damage on the exhaust pipes on lean burning engines. Hence high NOx. The hotter burning also keeps the burning chamber clean, and this is observed several times, once even by me. Also folks using bio for heating say it burns hotter, keeping the fireboxes a nice grey-white color instead of brown-black (Home Power magazine, you can look it up on the internet). So, which is it? I've always had the feeling that we (the biodiesel grassroots community) state that bio burns cooler, hence less wear on engines? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Fwd: EPA mercury rule / BushGreenWatch.org
From: Ryan Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: EPA mercury rule / BushGreenWatch.org Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:18:36 -0500 EMS Update - December 15, 2003 EPA Expected to Weaken Mercury Standards Today is the EPA's deadline to announce its plan for regulating mercury from coal-burning power plants. A leaked draft indicates it will downgrade mercury as a toxin while weakening efforts to clean up mercury emissions. Find out more: http://www.ems.org EMS Teams Up With MoveOn.org on New Website Today Environmental Media Services and MoveOn.org launch http://www.BushGreenWatch.org. Every weekday, the site will feature a timely, thoroughly sourced story on the administration's environmental and public health efforts, provide a heads-up on upcoming deadlines and court cases, and offer story ideas not yet in the news. Sign up to have the BushGreenWatch story of the day delivered to your inbox every weekday morning: http://ga3.org/bushgreenwatch/join.tcl ^ EMS Updates provide news tips and resources for journalists from Environmental Media Services. You received this email because you signed up for EMS Updates at our website, http://www.ems.org. Please forward this Update to your colleagues. We welcome feedback and suggested topics. You are currently subscribed to emsupdates as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] * To subscribe, please visit http://www.ems.org/updates.html ^ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the true story on ethanol?
It seems to me that SVO is a better solution then ethanol. Why?- Because it is easy to make and easy to get, license free. One really doesn't have to make aplant for it - it is very safe too! Lets suppose for a minute that diesel engine could run on SVO without any mods. Will we need diesel fuel or biodiesel ? - No. Why not to put pressure on manufacturers in this case to make diesel engines which can run on SVO without any mods? Brazil, with its warm climate , should switch to SVO or Turpentine! instead. Alex Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] world bank's dirty mining revealed in new report
http://www.foei.org/media/2003/1208.html foei press release friends of the earth international world bank's dirty mining revealed in new report The Report is Embargoed until 00.01h GMT on Dec. 11, 2003 and now available for preview by journalists at www.foei.org/media/2003/handsoff.html december 11, 2003, Washington (US) / Lisbon (Portugal) -- A new report released today at the final meeting of a World Bank review on extractive industries (December 11-13, Lisbon) reveals the devastating and irreversible social and environmental impacts of public financing for the fossil fuels and mining sectors. The report, 'Hands Off: Why International Financial Institutions Should Stop Drilling, Piping and Mining' is released at a groundbreaking meeting in Lisbon where communities, indigenous people and representatives of Non-Governmental Organisations discuss the impacts of extractive industries with the World Bank. This meeting is the final episode of the two year Extractive Industries Review (EIR) of the World Bank. The new report describes global and local resistance to large-scale mining projects funded by international financial institutions through 11 case studies, and was published by Friends of the Earth International, the world's largest grassroots environmental network. Case studies include notorious pipelines like the Chad-Cameroon and Baku-Ceyhan oil pipelines, and projects that are currently under consideration at financial institutions including a major copper mine in Laos. The World Bank's independent Extractive Industries Review [1] recommends that the Bank stop financing all coal and oil projects in developing countries. In addition, it calls for human rights protection and the right to prior and informed consent for communities. Many of the EIR recommendations point to an important shift away from traditional support to the extractive industries and are likely to meet with strong resistance from the Bank's shareholder countries. It is very significant that the harmful and dangerous effects of investments in oil, mining and gas are acknowledged by the World Bank, whose investments are supposed to alleviate poverty, said in Lisbon Janneke Bruil of Friends of the Earth International. The World Bank should adopt these recommendations without delay and also take firm steps to end financing of large scale mining, she added. Even the World Bank Extractive Industries Review acknowledges that the benefits of oil, mining and gas projects are often questionable, said Nur Hidayati of Friends of the Earth Indonesia (WALHI) in Jakarta. There is much evidence that the extractive industries violate indigenous peoples' rights and are associated with loss of livelihoods and climate change. she added. This week, in Lisbon, Portugal, civil society and other interest groups will discuss ways to ensure that the Bank implements the EIR's recommendations. The report will be formally presented to World Bank President James Wolfensohn in late December. The Board of the World Bank will decide whether to adopt the EIR recommendations at the end of March. For more information contact In Washington: Carol Welch, Friends of the Earth US +1-202-7837400 or +1-202-222-0719 (mobile) In Lisbon: (Portugal) Janneke Bruil, Friends of the Earth International +31-6-52118998 (mobile) In Indonesia: Nur Hidayati of Friends of the Earth Indonesia (WALHI) in Jakarta +62-21-79193363 or +62-812-9972642 (mobile) NOTES TO EDITORS: [1] the Extractive Industries report is available at www.eireview.org friends of the earth international secretariat po box 19199, 1000 gd amsterdam, the netherlands tel: 31 20 622 1369. fax: 31 20 639 2181. e-mail us http://www.foei.org/about/contacts.html http://www.foei.org/media/2003/handsoff.html foei media centre mining, hands off, part 1 read the pdf (722 Kb) http://www.foei.org/publications/pdfs/mining1lowres.pdf mining, hands off, part 2 read the pdf (443 Kb) http://www.foei.org/publications/pdfs/mining2lowres.pdf mining, hands off, part 3 read the pdf (487 Kb) http://www.foei.org/publications/pdfs/mining3lowres.pdf mining, hands off, part 4 read the pdf (460 Kb) http://www.foei.org/publications/pdfs/mining4lowres.pdf Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] New to Bio-Diesel, Need Methanol
Go talk to your racing pals. You should be able to get 55 gal of racing fuel in your area for 2-3 bucks a gal. -Original Message- From: Boston [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 8:05 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] New to Bio-Diesel, Need Methanol Hello All, My name is Boston, I am getting the Itch to try Bio-Diesel for the first time. I have been reading about it for the past couple weeks and can't wait to brew up my own batch. A couple quick questions if you don't mind. I'm looking for a place to buy methanol online? I found one place, but seemed a bit pricey for 5 gallons. Is this a normal cost for Methanol? $25.00 for 5 gallons $20.00 HazMat Handling $20.00 Shipping + Tax = $70.00 I live in Phoenix, AZ and have only found 2 places that carry Bio and it's a bit expensive, like 3$/gallon Maybe someone on BioFuel Group knows a good place in AZ to buy Methanol? next Question.. If I bought 5 gallons of methanol, how much Bio would that make me? Is there an Average, Example. 1 gallon methanol usually makes 25 gallons Bio Thanks in advance for helping me out, Like I said I am a Beginner and can't wait to try this out. I have a 1996 Hummer H1 (The Only real Hummer) 6.5L Turbo Diesel -Boston Bryce [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12cbbpriv/M=267637.4116730.5333196.1261774/D=eg roupweb/S=1705083269:HM/EXP=1071553681/A=1853618/R=0/*http:/www.netflix. com/Default?mqso=60178338partid=4116730 click here about:blank Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Terms of Service. This message has been processed by http://www.firetrust.com/products/benign/ Firetrust Benign. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Diesel water injection - was Biodiesel burns hotter or cooler?
Keith Addison wrote: Hi Martin If it is in fact running hotter, you could use a water injection system to cool it down (and also increase efficiency a bit) ..or can you not do this with a diesel as you can with a gasoline engine? -Martin Klingensmith Water in Diesel Combustion Abstract: Addition of water to the diesel process decreases combustion temperatures and lowers NOx emissions. The most common methods of introducing water are direct injection into the cylinder, a process commercialized in certain marine and stationary diesel engines, and water-in-fuel emulsions. Emulsified fuels, due to increased mixing in the diesel diffusion flame, can be also effective in simultaneous reduction of PM and NOx emissions. Addition of Water to Diesel Process Fumigation of Water into Intake Air Direct Injection of Water Fuel Emulsions Practical Embodiments Addition of Water to Diesel Process Methods of Water Addition Addition of water into the diesel combustion process is a known method to reduce NOx and, in some implementations, simultaneously reduce NOx and PM emissions. The very notion of introducing water into the cylinder of the diesel engine may sound controversial. After all, engineers have been taking great care to accomplish the exact opposite and protect the combustion chamber from water contamination, be it from the fuel or from water condensation in intake air coolers. The controversy around water addition is founded on the observation that water droplets impinging on the cylinder walls can immediately destroy the lubrication oil film. This danger however, although very real, is posed exclusively by liquid water. Once water is evaporated, it can no longer affect the lube oil film [Holtbecker 1998]. Thus, water addition methods which ensure that water droplets cannot contact the cylinder liner surface may be considered harmless. Further concerns have been raised that increased concentrations of water vapor in engine cylinder may result in condensation of water and/or sulfuric acid leading to corrosion problems. Apparently, these suspicions are not justified either, as the dew point of sulfuric acid at very high water:fuel ratio of 1:1 is increased by only up to 15¡C [Vollenweider 1995]. Considering the temperatures in diesel combustion, condensation in the combustion chamber is not possible at any time. In general, water can be introduced into the diesel combustion process using one of the following methods: * Emulsified fuel * In-cylinder water injection * Water injection into the intake air Etc. It says emulsified fuel is the simplest and most effective of the three, by quite a wide margin. All very interesting. I wonder why we aren't adding water to our biodiesel instead of removing it? Best Keith I believe the issue comes with trying to figure out exactly how much water you have in your fuel, also with the belief that it may come out of emulsion perhaps? A device that could meter a certain amount of water into the fuel before the injector would be an interesting concept. On-demand creation of an emulsion with a piezo transducer comes to mind. Maybe an extra injector that fired water vapor during the intake stroke could do such a thing? -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] New to Bio-Diesel, Need Methanol
That is insanely expensive! Places to find methanol include: racing shops, dry-gas, perhaps a chemical supplier (technical grade). -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ Boston wrote: Hello All, My name is Boston, I am getting the Itch to try Bio-Diesel for the first time. I have been reading about it for the past couple weeks and can't wait to brew up my own batch. A couple quick questions if you don't mind. I'm looking for a place to buy methanol online? I found one place, but seemed a bit pricey for 5 gallons. Is this a normal cost for Methanol? $25.00 for 5 gallons $20.00 HazMat Handling $20.00 Shipping + Tax = $70.00 I live in Phoenix, AZ and have only found 2 places that carry Bio and it's a bit expensive, like 3$/gallon Maybe someone on BioFuel Group knows a good place in AZ to buy Methanol? next Question.. If I bought 5 gallons of methanol, how much Bio would that make me? Is there an Average, Example. 1 gallon methanol usually makes 25 gallons Bio Thanks in advance for helping me out, Like I said I am a Beginner and can't wait to try this out. I have a 1996 Hummer H1 (The Only real Hummer) 6.5L Turbo Diesel -Boston Bryce [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Heating with SVO
I have the oppertiunity to get lots of WVO for free. I don't own a diesel vehicle and cannot afford to buy one at the moment. The only heat I have for my house is a woodstove. I started thinking if I had a way to burn WVO I could take care of all my heating needs. Does anybody have any plans for a furnace or boiler that burns WVO or know if one exists on the market? Any idea would help. Mike MOTHER's Waste Oil Heater: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me4.html There are three pages there, the third one has user reports and modifications, including one from a user in Canada who's heating his whole home with one of these. The altfuelfurnace group at Yahoo deals with running furnaces on WVO. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the true story on ethanol?
Aside: I do want to say that awhile back you shot down my interest in completely-different non-natural production of biofuels and ethanol and what-not, from such schemes as PV-to-H2-to-C2H6O, or whatever, Point me at it please? I'd like to have a look at what I shot down. http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/28661/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/28717/ I'll have to look around for that. I think this is what Im getting at. 99% of ethanol debates in the US at the national news-journal level are framed in terms of ADM and others and big-farm subsidies. There is virtually no coverage of the idea that there are different ways to look at this. Really, no mainstream coverage at all, in any way, that I'm aware. http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30101/ Brazil Ethanol Dual Fuel Cars Thanks. This progress that Brazil is making is pure gold. http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30071/ Brazil Ethanol Once again it comes to mind that I'd love to see an alcohol fuel cell for cars. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the true story on ethanol?
Aside: I do want to say that awhile back you shot down my interest in completely-different non-natural production of biofuels and ethanol and what-not, from such schemes as PV-to-H2-to-C2H6O, or whatever, Point me at it please? I'd like to have a look at what I shot down. http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/28661/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/28717/ Okay, thanks. But: Designing A Better Catalyst For Artificial Photosynthesis New York - Sep 11, 2003 Scientists studying the conversion of carbon dioxide (CO2) to carbon monoxide (CO) -- a crucial step in transforming CO2 to useful organic compounds such as methanol -- are trying to mimic what plants do when they convert CO2 and water to carbohydrates and oxygen in the presence of chlorophyll and sunlight. Such artificial photosynthesis could produce inexpensive fuels and raw materials for the chemical industry from renewable solar energy. But achieving this goal is no simple task. Nature has found a way to do this over eons, says Etsuko Fujita, a chemist at the Department of Energy's Brookhaven National Laboratory. It's very complicated chemistry. http://www.spacedaily.com/news/energy-tech-03zf.html I wanted to draw attention to this story, which was posted a few days ago by Hoagy. As I've said before, I think that synthesis of useful fuels, by a variety of means, is a top topic, and artificial photosynthesis, or something like it, is arguably a big link in whatever sustainable energy chain we may form in the future. If we could find a way to manufacture useful fuel, we'd be somewhat less dependent on having to take it as we find it, in the ground. MM In the ground or on top of it - let plants do the photosynthesis, since they're so good at it, while we're getting to be quite handy at manufacturing useful fuels from the plants. Best Keith http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/28717/ You snipped quite a bit, I'll put it back: ... what-not, from such schemes as PV-to-H2-to-C2H6O, or whatever, and I did not agree at all with this, but it didn't seem important to argue it at length at that time. I know what I think on the matter. If it can be done sustainably then I'm for taking a look at it, whether it fits with the way things were done in the past or not. Well, that's certainly no criterion, I'm sure I didn't shoot you down on those grounds, I'd agree with your view as you've put it here. Please give me a ref. This to me is relevant in the sense that, basically, ethanol is ethanol. It's a chemical. What is not the same is the derivation method and the analysis of the sustainability of those methods. I'd look for the derivation method to be doable on a small-scale, localised basis and it'd have to pass a sustainability analysis. Standard AT criteria, as ever. So would you say that artificial photosynthesis would pass those criteria? Most unlikely, I'd say, or at least not for a long time, after a lot of development. There's also the ready-for-use argument, rather a strong one - which please note isn't an argument against research and development. Meanwhile, as I said, we're pretty good at manufacturing useful fuels. Maybe you didn't phrase it very well. It's true though that a lot of this kind of research strikes me as superfluous, or at least premature, a bit like the way that the so-called HYV high-yielding varieties of the so-called Green Revolution were rushed into use without the true potential of existing varieties ever having been fully explored. It's since emerged that traditional varieties can out-perform the HYVs in every way except one: the swelling of chemical corporation bottom lines, at the expense of widespread environmental damage and the creation of much human deprivation and suffering among the very people the HYVs were supposed to be helping, or at least on the surface of it. That, by the way, has got nothing to do with whether things fit with the way things were done in the past or not. Which of the two fitted current needs? Which fits a sustainable future? Which encourages community self-reliance? There's so much work yet to be done with biofuels crops, we've scarcely scratched the surface of it. Such work would seem much more apt than reinventing photosynthesis, almost certainly in a form that would only be usable by big, centralized industry - fitting in well, no doubt, with the way they've done things in the past. Same old wine in a brand new bottle. Best Keith I'll have to look around for that. I think this is what Im getting at. 99% of ethanol debates in the US at the national news-journal level are framed in terms of ADM and others and big-farm subsidies. There is virtually no coverage of the idea that there are different ways to look at this. Really, no mainstream coverage at all, in any way, that I'm aware. http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30101/ Brazil Ethanol Dual Fuel Cars Thanks. This
[biofuel] Re: What's the true story on ethanol?
Murdoch, Once again it comes to mind that I'd love to see an alcohol fuel cell for cars. I'm *very* into the ethanol powered fuel cell developments, but I don't think we ought to put energies towards developing fuel cells for vehicle use per se. Just think of all the copper that would be needed! Ahh, the wheels of capitalism they do turn. We need to stop the assembly lines cold-turkey and fix up the millions of cars that have already been produced and are lying dormant. I'm radical, I know ;) There is some *great* work being done with ethanol powered fuel cells. Shelly Minteers at Saint Louis University has been working on one that will fit in laptops and cell phones, charge on a small amount of moonshine, and power your applications much longer than a traditional battery. It would sound too good to be true if it didn't make so much sense. Finally ethical design is reaching the mainstream (like Keith's earlier post about 'economics as if energy mattered')! Check out Shelly at: http://www.slu.edu/readstory/newsinfo/2474 Dave Shaw Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Newbie looking for advice
Hi all, I have been following this list for a while know and am very interested in making Biodiesel for my own use. I am building a retirement home in northern Michigan that is a totally off grid. We have solar and wind power for our electric. I have installed a solar wall for some of my heat and the Biodiesel would work great for my Diesel generator, bulldozer, and pickup truck. I am thinking of going with Aleks Kac's Foolproof method for making it. I was wondering what some of you think of this method? I have a good source for the WVO so it won't be a problem. I am still looking for a good source for the Methanol and sulfuric acid. I have found it online but it is a little pricey. I also see it takes 10% phosphoric acid. I am not a chemist at all and don't know what that is or where to look for it. I found a higher percentage online but don't know if that was what I needed or not. I hope these questions are not to dumb but I want to make sure I start this out right. I am making my processor with pumps and hoses so I don't have to stir and pour any fluids. I am also using water heater elements to do my heating so I won't have any open flames to contend with. If I want to run B100 for my Generator will the fuel supplement that I use now for the off road fuel work to keep my pour point good in the winter or should I mix it with the off road fuel? Any advice anyone can send my way would be great. I sure want to make this work it sounds great and will fit in with the rest of my projects to get away from the oil and power companies. Thanks for the help Rick M Brownstown, Mi. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the true story on ethanol?
If Rudolf Diesel was able to make an engine which runs on SWO in 1913 I don't see the reason why it can't be done in 2003. After all we are trying to explore life on Mars! If for DIY guy takes $300 to make car to run on SWO, I don't see why car makers couldn't do it as an option - a truly multi-fuel car. I think Canada alone can grow canola oil for the whole world to run on. Alex Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Re: price of world energy BD going up?
Mark, Good points. But i'm still unclear about the economics of large-scale commercial production. Whether you're using oil that is a byproduct of the livestock feed industry or getting biodiesel as a byproduct of making soap, I don't see why that should matter. The point I'm making is that this is a relatively new use for what was heretofore a by-product, and that therefore the economics of centralized production shouldn't be so unfavorable. Sure, if you're trucking soybeans or the oil from afar to a central facility just to make biodiesel and then shipping it out again to hither and yon for sale, that would hurt. When you describe making biodiesel on a large scale as an inefficient process, I assume that you're referring to the shipping aspect. (Or are there other inefficient aspects?) But if you're ALREADY bring the oil or beans to one place for a different purpose, I would think that cost is subsumed in that primary purpose. And actually, in conversations with others I've been told that the economics of small-scale commercial production are unfavorable. You don't get economies of scale of collecting WVO or whatever your feedstock is. For example, if I wanted to open a facility in Seattle, how much time and $ would it cost me to collect WVO from all over town? I can see that being prohibitive. Am I totally off-base here? Any thoughts anyone? The best business-model for local production I've heard of, and this came from Tomas Endicott at Sequential Biofuels, is for an oil-leasing business. You rent virgin oil to restaurants and then take it back to produce vegetable biodiesel. Your delivery trucks run full both ways. It's very Cradle-to-Cradle. If you run the oil-supply business just as a break-even venture, then you have essentially free WVO for your biodiesel production. THAT would cool. Anyone want to invest some $ to see how this would work in Seattle. No pushing now, one at a time. ;) I just think that $3.00/gallon is a lot for something that is a byproduct. thor skov Message: 8 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:36:11 - From: skillshare Subject: Re: price of world energy BD going up? --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Thor Skov wrote: Here's my question though. I thought that US virgin oil biodiesel production was largely a bi-product of the soap industry. If true, I would expect this by-product to be somewhat insulated from price shocks. It;s a byproduct of the livestock feed industry actually- most soy in this country is grown for livestock feed, and the oil is pressed out of it first in the process of making the soy meal that goes into the feed. Since I have no idea what the market is like for biodiesel, I don't know what demand is doing. Growing, presumably, since a number of big plants are coming on line in California. But then, I would hope to see a fall in the price once that production hits the market. I think a lot of people expect this to happen but the opposite is the case. But the profit margin for commercial producers is tiny- they aren't getting rich off of this, just wasting a lot of money in the inefficient process by which biodiesel goes from being raw oil to actually fueling a vehicle. This is where local production realy shines- the economics of it are spectacular compared to centralised big production. But I think it takes a mental shift for many people to see this (ie such as potential investors)- since we're used to the paradigm in this economy that says that economy of scale leads to cheaper prices. I don't htink it applies as well to biodiesel, (at least WVO-sourced biodiesel, which is the primary California feedstock, etc...). mark Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: What's the true story on ethanol?
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, shawstafari wrote: I'm *very* into the ethanol powered fuel cell developments, but I don't think we ought to put energies towards developing fuel cells for vehicle use per se. Just think of all the copper that would be needed! Ahh, the wheels of capitalism they do turn. We need to stop the assembly lines cold-turkey and fix up the millions of cars that have already been produced and are lying dormant. I'm radical, I know ;) I feel the same way. I just can't understand why no one is willing to fix up old cars (and do things to improve their emissions). Everytime I talk to someone about it, they act like I am crazy. -Al Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] New to Bio-Diesel, Need Methanol
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Boston Bryce wrote: I'm looking for a place to buy methanol online? I found one place, but seemed a bit pricey for 5 gallons. Is this a normal cost for Methanol? $25.00 for 5 gallons $20.00 HazMat Handling $20.00 Shipping + Tax = $70.00 I live in Phoenix, AZ and have only found 2 places that carry Bio and it's a bit expensive, like 3$/gallon Maybe someone on BioFuel Group knows a good place in AZ to buy Methanol? I wish I knew of a place to buy methanol. You may want to try a drag strip. They would use Methanol there. I am not sure what the price would be though. Actually, I have been looking for a place to buy neat ethanol, and I have not been able to find one. But I am still looking. If I find a place to buy methanol, I will let you know, and I hope you will do the same for me about ethanol. -Al Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: What's the true story on ethanol?
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:00:59 -, you wrote: Murdoch, Once again it comes to mind that I'd love to see an alcohol fuel cell for cars. I'm *very* into the ethanol powered fuel cell developments, but I don't think we ought to put energies towards developing fuel cells for vehicle use per se. Just think of all the copper that would be needed! Ahh, the wheels of capitalism they do turn. We need to stop the assembly lines cold-turkey and fix up the millions of cars that have already been produced and are lying dormant. I'm radical, I know ;) There is some *great* work being done with ethanol powered fuel cells. Shelly Minteers at Saint Louis University has been working on one that will fit in laptops and cell phones, charge on a small amount of moonshine, and power your applications much longer than a traditional battery. It would sound too good to be true if it didn't make so much sense. Finally ethical design is reaching the mainstream (like Keith's earlier post about 'economics as if energy mattered')! Check out Shelly at: http://www.slu.edu/readstory/newsinfo/2474 Dave Shaw Thanks. There doesn't seem to be a reason given (there must be one) as to what holdup there is to commercializing this technology. It is not entirely unique. Over the years as we've heard about microfuel cells, there have been several methanol-based efforts, and at least one ethanol-based one from Medis. One holdup for methanol is I think low wattages. So, that would keep it in the micro category. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] washing of the water and pollution
I have considered biodiesel production for some years now and wonder about the confusions and the truth about several procedures.Doing it right and cleanly should be upmost in everyone's mind.The Big Oil Business has a terrible record of doing anything cleanly as i know from years of living in the oil patch and working and transporting many,many loads of crude [i am NOT the enemy!] To western ranchers,oil revenue is just slowing down the time until they loose the farm and oil companies have left many areas totally distroyed for any use;salt water left to pour out in every direction from the 1920's until the 60's when they were forced to contain it and pump it back underground [going lord knows where].Nothing will ever grow in these areas except a few salt cedars.To seperate oil from water in tanks that want cooperate,we brought in a hot-oil-treatment truck which circulated the tank oil thru the truck-mounted heater for several hours[sometimes,this did not work after several attempts and this bad oil was sold to a salvage company] I want to know how to produce biodiesel right before i start[maybe using animal fats from a very large facality ] .Even the shape of process containers are in the argument among the bio people. Thanks,ken malone [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Economics of ethyl ester biodiesel process
I have question for the biodiesel makers in the group. I had gathered some materials here in Israel, for making biodisel. I am using ethanol not methanol . Both from health and environmental reasons. And I am wondering if it is worth while, economically I brought potassium hydroxide for 0.81 cents a kg very chip indeed I will also have to include the cost of caustic soda for reducing fat acids in the two stage process, but it is only small amount. And finally the most expensive ingredient - ethanol. I have checked with the local chemical supply store there it cost 3.21 $ per liter of synthetic alcohol which supposed to be chipper then distilled one . I will need 300 ml per liter , so the cost is something like 0.96 $ per liter if you include the other materials and labor it comes to like 1.10$ - 1.20$ per liter of biodiesel . Today I been at the gas station and they had a sale of diesel at 0.636$ a liter the normal price of diesel is 0.74$ liter so it seems that if I won't find chipper source of ethanol it is not economical for my to make biodiesel. I am interested in what solution other people using the ethyl ester process had find to the high ethanol price, and where do they find chip source of ethanol, that is without distilling it themselves . I am working on building a still apparatus , but if the price of ethanol is so high isn't it more worth while to sell the ethanol instead of making bidiesle with it? Alon Sfarim [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the true story on ethanol?
You snipped quite a bit, I'll put it back: ... what-not, from such schemes as PV-to-H2-to-C2H6O, or whatever, and I did not agree at all with this, but it didn't seem important to argue it at length at that time. I know what I think on the matter. If it can be done sustainably then I'm for taking a look at it, whether it fits with the way things were done in the past or not. Well, that's certainly no criterion, I'm sure I didn't shoot you down on those grounds, I'd agree with your view as you've put it here. Please give me a ref. This to me is relevant in the sense that, basically, ethanol is ethanol. It's a chemical. What is not the same is the derivation method and the analysis of the sustainability of those methods. I'd look for the derivation method to be doable on a small-scale, localised basis and it'd have to pass a sustainability analysis. Standard AT criteria, as ever. So would you say that artificial photosynthesis would pass those criteria? Most unlikely, I'd say, or at least not for a long time, after a lot of development. There's also the ready-for-use argument, rather a strong one - which please note isn't an argument against research and development. Meanwhile, as I said, we're pretty good at manufacturing useful fuels. Maybe you didn't phrase it very well. Hi: I don't think I really have an argument with the idea that, at present, nature does a good job and that, furthermore, we need to apply sustainability criteria. I wouldn't be following biofuel efforts if I didn't value the excellence of the processes that nature hands us. I think I'm coming more at this from a big-picture long-term point of view. I.e.: I am all for keeping every option open, particularly as regards a sort-of-fungible desireable commodity or fuel such as ethanol. By ready-for-use criteria, and other criteria, nature's methods are presently superior. That's fine. I'm just not going to shut the door on long term possible alternatives. In the meantime, we are subjected to daily discussions of Hydrogen and Hydrogen-manufacturing. If done from solar energy, this is a de facto form of artificial photosynthesis, or about 60% close to it. So a question becomes, why not try to extend all the way to Ethanol or Methanol or Methane? Why stop at H2? After all, those chemicals have qualities which are far superior to H2 in some key areas (mostly notably in storage ease and density)? Furthermore, a huge revelation, to me, of the California EV experiments has been the viability of putting solar PV onto rooftops of leasors and really really doing it 100%. This particular PV-to-BEV success story is one that the Oil companies and others don't want too many folks to know about (in my view). So, if PV-to-BEV is so do-able, I just end up wondering a bit what other solar-to-other-forms-of-energy we can get to. OK, so the H2-related discussion is not so much a distant-future one, but I'm not the one pushing it, and as long as folks want that much to discuss H2, once in awhile I wonder what other standardizeable chemical fuels we can make. MM Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Commercial production
Hi to all My salute and million thanks to people behind in making this website I donât want to elaborate more but express my gratitude and personal thank you to all. My your day be merry this coming season greetings Best wishes Frank -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 3:36 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Commercial production Hi Hakan If you can sell your biodiesel and make a profit that is acceptable for you, please sell it. The morality does not rest with who is using it, it is rather that someone is prepared to use it. It is not like you are giving someone an advantage or a favor. It is that someone has moral enough that buy it, often despite a higher price, and use it for the to support future generations. It is a huge task to change the fossil habits and every little step is important. Promote and make a good business out of diversified biofuel production and do not attempt to make it an honor for your clients to buy from you. This way you are acting in a moral way and every gallon sold, substitute the use of a gallon of fossil fuel. Your and other small producers success is a moral thing in itself. Good luck and go out and get the totally immoral energy corporations! Hakan But this isn't really what William was asking. The nub of it's near the end: the general public. I am afraid, however, that I may upset some by turning a profit using methods and information (although modified) by others. He's worried about the rights and wrongs of taking and using for commercial gain information freely given at Journey to Forever, a lot of which comes from here, the Biofuel list - very many people have given their time and efforts to developing the biodiesel information and technology now available to anybody. Would it be right for a business just to take it over, put their name on it and get rich off it? Thor said this of the Biofuel list a while back: I just want to say how important what you all are doing here is. Closed-system fuel production, on a local or small regional scale, tied to local resources, using accessible technologies, and dependent on entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange - it's AWESOME. Keep up the good work everyone, before the planet fries. ... entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange... But how exactly does that work? There are people here, list members, who're just here for what they can get. Some of them are using the list, the list members and list resources as a free consultancy service - they take what they want, even raise discussions on it, and put it to their own use. This might have nothing to do with what Thor said and what we're all on about here - small-scale, localised, distributed biofuels production, truly sustainable, renewable energy production with a future to it. Some of them have big plans for high-production, centralised plants and would normally be paying megabucks to consultancies for the kind of information they get here for nothing. What's most noticeable is that they PUT NOTHING BACK IN. Some even talk of patents. I suppose they think we're a bunch of mugs. We know a lot of people do that with the information at Journey to Forever as well - we get quite seriously ripped off. Well, we knew that would happen when we started it but decided to do it anyway. Our perhaps idealistic idea of it is that the rip-off merchants don't thrive, though they might think they do, and that those who know what it means to cast your bread upon the waters do thrive, and not only that but it spreads. Indeed there are those here (the majority?) who understand the meaning of collaboration and act accordingly. We have some fine examples of entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange - it works both ways, not just one-way. Bill Clark's excellent project comes to mind, Jack Kenworthy at the Island School, quite a few others. I'd like to hear their views on these issues. And Todd's, who has a clear vision of this. Also Mark, who most eloquently outlined the downside in her Homebrewer on a soapbox post: http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/18491/ In brief, what sort of small biofuels business do we support, and what sort do we not support? The excellent information developed collaboratively by list members and available to all in the archives and at Journey to Forever is or isn't available for commercial use, and if it is, under what conditions? Not that we can stop anyone using it, it's there for the taking, the door's wide open, but some clear-cut language in a sign on the door wouldn't go amiss. We all want to see biofuels replacing fossil fuels, but we've also come to realise that there are good ways and bad ways of doing it. Many of us don't see the NBB and Big Soy eg as our friends in any way - their aims are not our aims,
Re: [biofuel] Re: methanol recovery before separation
No Maria. What I've said is that heat can help break an emulsion. Key word is help. It's not a guarantee and it doesn't work with all emulsions. As for your contention that heat doesn't aid in the formation of emulsions, you might want to consider something as simple as whether or not warmer conditions lend to better mixing and dissolution of materials or not. The better the mixing the better the degree of emulsification under the wrong (or right) conditions. Wrong conditions relative to biodiesel would be high soap content and/or presence of mono- and di-glycerides. A soap emulsification will largely break by itself over time. An emulsification enhanced by glycerides won't. (And warm or cool water generally won't matter on the latter.) As for the glycerin cocktail disappearing (presumably becoming permanently solvent) under conditions of evaporation and agitation by your friend? Homey ain't buyin' it. First of all, a magnetic capsule in a flask on a hot plate doesn't provide enough agitation to keep glycerol suspended. It's the boiling of the alcohol that provides sufficient agitation for vague suspension on a temporary basis. And certainly just because one phase is temporarily boiled into another doesn't mean that a transesterification has reversed. Essentially all that is relayed in this conversation is that heat was applied and Voila! The glycerin cocktail disappeared. [My words. Duplicit implication to your own.] That's not exactly what one would call a thorough analysis under even vaguely controlled conditions. Disappeared? For how long? There is no mention as to whether the mixture was permitted to cool and settle after the mystical disappearance. And what? Is anyone who hears this tale of disappearance suppose to presume that the general masses at Infopoop prefer not to question such an incomplete, open-ended, quasi-analysis and accept solubility and reversed reaction as the declarative finality? Surely not everyone over there is that dim. Oddly enough, alcohol-free glycerol/soap/catalyst drops in almost the bat of an eye - quick enough that the thicker and gummier cocktail wreaks havoc with non-wiped, thin-film evaporators. As for any degree of reversed reaction, where is the control batch? Any mention of adding the recovered solvent (alcohol) back to the container and allowing a settling period to give even a remotely dim visual insight as to what volumetric changes may have occurred? Was the glycerin cocktail layer the same volume as the control batch? Was the fuel layer? Was the recovered FFA volume the same as the control batch? Was the recovered crude glycerol volume the same as the control batch? I hate to tell you this, but none of our pot-distillations of combined biodiesel and glycerin cocktail have ever yielded any wash emulsion other than the normal interface. That would certainly be a rather rudimentary demonstration of no reverse reaction back to glycerides (emulsifiers). And the final yields between pot-stilled biodiesel/glycerol, pot-stilled biodiesel only, water-washed biodiesel and thin film evaporated bioidesel haven't shown enough variation to indicate much of a back-cracking of the esters to soap. Granted, yields of give or take 1/2 of 1 percent are not exactly values that can be a declared as definitive proof of zero back-cracking, at least no more than disappeared is proof of reverse reaction. Frankly? IMNSHO, it sounds like an inordinate number of things are being forgotten, dismissed, assumed and prepondered to the exclusion of all else by too many people none too willing to put much effort or thought into matters. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: skillshare [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 1:53 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re: methanol recovery before separation You are extemely wrong when you say that heat causes more problems with emulsion (in fact you've told me yourself offlist that you heated emulsions to break them, similar principle here) . It's very much the other way around. Try it for yourself with some test batches at different temperatures. You almost can't get emulsion with hot washes. I was describing some experiments where I was unhappy with the results of some of my washes, but they were still miles away from the results one gets with unheated wash water. The temperatures I'm talking aobut are in the 100F range, which all summer long was pretty easy to achieve in 95degree summer weather. Reverse reaction: I'm talking about Neutral from the infopop forum and others who have had glycerol completely disappear under the following conditions: Neutral was running methanol recovery experiment using a heated lab stirrer (stirred hot plate). He left it running for a few hours and came back to no methanol. I harrassed a commercial biodiesel equipment vendor (whose process uses methanol recovery before separation of the glycerol for the same reasons I mentioned) about this
Re: [biofuel] Newbie looking for advice
Disclaimer: I still haven't made BD. I can still think and use a calculator, though. OK... You're looking at a lot of electricity to heat your fuel through the reaction. I would suggest that you consider heating the WVO in a separate container with WVO, biodiesel, or byproduct before the reaction. Then you can insulate the reactor, and use electricity for keeping everything hot, once it's at the reaction temperature. Also, it seems to me that the foolproof method is a lot more energy intensive because of the long process time, and the need to re-heat the oil (whatever it is at this point) after the first stage. Insulate. Also, depending on the size of your battery bank, it might take awhile to recouperate after running a reaction, unless you are using your generator (which is legitimate here, i would say.) Good luck. I'm trying to make an off-grid BD processor too. I'm going the direction of pre-heating WVO with fuel, then using good insulation and only a little PV-generated electricity to run the pump and maybe keep the oil warm with an electric immersion heat element. -Aaron On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I have been following this list for a while know and am very interested in making Biodiesel for my own use. I am building a retirement home in northern Michigan that is a totally off grid. We have solar and wind power for our electric. I have installed a solar wall for some of my heat and the Biodiesel would work great for my Diesel generator, bulldozer, and pickup truck. I am thinking of going with Aleks Kac's Foolproof method for making it. I was wondering what some of you think of this method? I have a good source for the WVO so it won't be a problem. I am still looking for a good source for the Methanol and sulfuric acid. I have found it online but it is a little pricey. I also see it takes 10% phosphoric acid. I am not a chemist at all and don't know what that is or where to look for it. I found a higher percentage online but don't know if that was what I needed or not. I hope these questions are not to dumb but I want to make sure I start this out right. I am making my processor with pumps and hoses so I don't have to stir and pour any fluids. I am also using water heater elements to do my heating so I won't have any open flames to contend with. If I want to run B100 for my Generator will the fuel supplement that I use now for the off road fuel work to keep my pour point good in the winter or should I mix it with the off road fuel? Any advice anyone can send my way would be great. I sure want to make this work it sounds great and will fit in with the rest of my projects to get away from the oil and power companies. Thanks for the help Rick M Brownstown, Mi. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: methanol recovery before separation
Maria, You might care to consider whether or not it's calcium and other residue in the lining of the hot H20 tank that you've converted to a processor that is lending to your cloud problem. Doubtful that aereation from the pump, of and by itself, is lending to the cloudiness. Todd Swearingen Me: this was biodiesel made from new oil, Todd- dry, new oil, with the right amount of methanol and lye added. My problem isn't soap alone. It's glycerol suspension somehow in this processor of mine (which I think is a complex problem which can also be caused by conversion, by soap, and by overagitation or by the type of agitiation. This processor I've got also differs from all the others I've ever used by the type of pump I'm using. SO for me two factors changed in the beginning of the spring when the cloudiness problem happened- closed processor, and new type of pump). The cloudiness is also very stubborn- it wont go away within three days of glycerol settling or anything. Waiting more than three days before washing isn't something I should have to do for a good wash, in my experience. THough in general the longer you wait the easier the washing process of course. I should have been having an easier time washing biodiesel made from new oil than I was, and I shouldn't have had so much glycerol hanging out in the biodiesel to begin with, in my past experience. If you want to identify and put to rest any questions about this 'back cracking' thing, use a soap test using bromophenol blue indicator and hydrochloric acid in a titration- it can tell you very precicely how much soap is made under what conditions. It's one of the more precise and easy tests we have . mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maria, You might care to reconsider the use of heated water or adding water to heated fuel when washing. The heat lends to emulsion formation more readily than water at ambient temperatures. While this is not so problematic with relatively clean parent stock, it can prove to be very ugly with feedstocks that titrate higher and are processed only with straight base (greater presence of soap). Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the true story on ethanol?
Alex, Rudolf Diesel's engine for SVO was a failure, he actually tried to make an engine that was meant to run on coal dust. He got money to develop that and he ended up with an engine that was working with vegetable oil. Maybe we need some more useful mistakes, maybe as a result of the Bush money for the hydrogen car. -:) Hakan At 21:56 15/12/2003, you wrote: If Rudolf Diesel was able to make an engine which runs on SWO in 1913 I don't see the reason why it can't be done in 2003. After all we are trying to explore life on Mars! If for DIY guy takes $300 to make car to run on SWO, I don't see why car makers couldn't do it as an option - a truly multi-fuel car. I think Canada alone can grow canola oil for the whole world to run on. Alex Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
Maud, is the amount of methanol remaining in the methyl ester considered negligible? Is it possible to determine what percentage remains in the methyl ester and what percentage in the glycerol? Maud Just for grins and giggles and to answer part of your question, a 100 milileter sample of un-washed biodiesel was run through an evaporator. (Not much of an average sampling.) 100 milileters in and 97 milileters out. That would equate to an ~3% volume of alcohol residing in the fuel layer prior to alcohol recovery, or ~31 milileters of alcohol for every liter of biodiesel. That's ~15% of the original volume of alcohol. Not exactly insignificant. But then common sense never dictated that it would be. One qualifier. The unwashed fuel used to scratch out this number was from an aggregate vessel that is filled with fuel from multiple reactions, both straight base, acid/base, high volumes of alcohol per liter (250 ml) and standard volumes (200 ml). Still, I would assess 2%-3% as a conservatively safe value, at least until more refined numbers pop up. Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the true story on ethanol?
Do not be so sure, they are professional on making mistakes. Think about all the money spent on finding WMDs and Iraqi freedom . As a byproduct of this mistake, they now control maybe the largest oil reserves on Earth. The money that is spent on hydrogen freedom car, might end up to be a competitive range of diesel engines. VW seems to have close to 50% of that market otherwise. When the current administration use the word freedom, it can be anything. Hakan At 06:02 16/12/2003, you wrote: Indeed, I love mistakes in engineering. On the issue of what's different between then and now, I'm not sure if even he could have overcome, with or without mistakes, the deliberate studied neglect of important technologies and industries and issues by the present powers-that-be. On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 04:54:58 +0100, you wrote: Alex, Rudolf Diesel's engine for SVO was a failure, he actually tried to make an engine that was meant to run on coal dust. He got money to develop that and he ended up with an engine that was working with vegetable oil. Maybe we need some more useful mistakes, maybe as a result of the Bush money for the hydrogen car. -:) Hakan At 21:56 15/12/2003, you wrote: If Rudolf Diesel was able to make an engine which runs on SWO in 1913 I don't see the reason why it can't be done in 2003. After all we are trying to explore life on Mars! If for DIY guy takes $300 to make car to run on SWO, I don't see why car makers couldn't do it as an option - a truly multi-fuel car. I think Canada alone can grow canola oil for the whole world to run on. Alex Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: methanol recovery before separation
this is before I worked with the hot water heaters.I't's a drum-based tank (110 gallons, two drums welded together) , identical to previous partly-sealed processors of mine but more tightly sealed. I didn't say aeration either. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maria, You might care to consider whether or not it's calcium and other residue in the lining of the hot H20 tank that you've converted to a processor that is lending to your cloud problem. Doubtful that aereation from the pump, of and by itself, is lending to the cloudiness. Todd Swearingen Me: this was biodiesel made from new oil, Todd- dry, new oil, with the right amount of methanol and lye added. My problem isn't soap alone. It's glycerol suspension somehow in this processor of mine (which I think is a complex problem which can also be caused by conversion, by soap, and by overagitation or by the type of agitiation. This processor I've got also differs from all the others I've ever used by the type of pump I'm using. SO for me two factors changed in the beginning of the spring when the cloudiness problem happened- closed processor, and new type of pump). The cloudiness is also very stubborn- it wont go away within three days of glycerol settling or anything. Waiting more than three days before washing isn't something I should have to do for a good wash, in my experience. THough in general the longer you wait the easier the washing process of course. I should have been having an easier time washing biodiesel made from new oil than I was, and I shouldn't have had so much glycerol hanging out in the biodiesel to begin with, in my past experience. If you want to identify and put to rest any questions about this 'back cracking' thing, use a soap test using bromophenol blue indicator and hydrochloric acid in a titration- it can tell you very precicely how much soap is made under what conditions. It's one of the more precise and easy tests we have . mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maria, You might care to reconsider the use of heated water or adding water to heated fuel when washing. The heat lends to emulsion formation more readily than water at ambient temperatures. While this is not so problematic with relatively clean parent stock, it can prove to be very ugly with feedstocks that titrate higher and are processed only with straight base (greater presence of soap). Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] What's the true story on ethanol?
Indeed, I love mistakes in engineering. On the issue of what's different between then and now, I'm not sure if even he could have overcome, with or without mistakes, the deliberate studied neglect of important technologies and industries and issues by the present powers-that-be. On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 04:54:58 +0100, you wrote: Alex, Rudolf Diesel's engine for SVO was a failure, he actually tried to make an engine that was meant to run on coal dust. He got money to develop that and he ended up with an engine that was working with vegetable oil. Maybe we need some more useful mistakes, maybe as a result of the Bush money for the hydrogen car. -:) Hakan At 21:56 15/12/2003, you wrote: If Rudolf Diesel was able to make an engine which runs on SWO in 1913 I don't see the reason why it can't be done in 2003. After all we are trying to explore life on Mars! If for DIY guy takes $300 to make car to run on SWO, I don't see why car makers couldn't do it as an option - a truly multi-fuel car. I think Canada alone can grow canola oil for the whole world to run on. Alex Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Commercial production
Frank..., And a Happy Humbug! to all as well. Ye indeede! Humbug! Humbug! in July. Humbug! in May! Humbug! in February! Humbug! Yes.., Bahh Humbug! But don't be any the less happy about it! :-) Celebrate Humbug!!! - Original Message - From: Franklin B. Del Rosario [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 8:47 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Commercial production Hi to all My salute and million thanks to people behind in making this website I don't want to elaborate more but express my gratitude and personal thank you to all. My your day be merry this coming season greetings Best wishes Frank -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 3:36 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Commercial production Hi Hakan If you can sell your biodiesel and make a profit that is acceptable for you, please sell it. The morality does not rest with who is using it, it is rather that someone is prepared to use it. It is not like you are giving someone an advantage or a favor. It is that someone has moral enough that buy it, often despite a higher price, and use it for the to support future generations. It is a huge task to change the fossil habits and every little step is important. Promote and make a good business out of diversified biofuel production and do not attempt to make it an honor for your clients to buy from you. This way you are acting in a moral way and every gallon sold, substitute the use of a gallon of fossil fuel. Your and other small producers success is a moral thing in itself. Good luck and go out and get the totally immoral energy corporations! Hakan But this isn't really what William was asking. The nub of it's near the end: the general public. I am afraid, however, that I may upset some by turning a profit using methods and information (although modified) by others. He's worried about the rights and wrongs of taking and using for commercial gain information freely given at Journey to Forever, a lot of which comes from here, the Biofuel list - very many people have given their time and efforts to developing the biodiesel information and technology now available to anybody. Would it be right for a business just to take it over, put their name on it and get rich off it? Thor said this of the Biofuel list a while back: I just want to say how important what you all are doing here is. Closed-system fuel production, on a local or small regional scale, tied to local resources, using accessible technologies, and dependent on entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange - it's AWESOME. Keep up the good work everyone, before the planet fries. ... entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange... But how exactly does that work? There are people here, list members, who're just here for what they can get. Some of them are using the list, the list members and list resources as a free consultancy service - they take what they want, even raise discussions on it, and put it to their own use. This might have nothing to do with what Thor said and what we're all on about here - small-scale, localised, distributed biofuels production, truly sustainable, renewable energy production with a future to it. Some of them have big plans for high-production, centralised plants and would normally be paying megabucks to consultancies for the kind of information they get here for nothing. What's most noticeable is that they PUT NOTHING BACK IN. Some even talk of patents. I suppose they think we're a bunch of mugs. We know a lot of people do that with the information at Journey to Forever as well - we get quite seriously ripped off. Well, we knew that would happen when we started it but decided to do it anyway. Our perhaps idealistic idea of it is that the rip-off merchants don't thrive, though they might think they do, and that those who know what it means to cast your bread upon the waters do thrive, and not only that but it spreads. Indeed there are those here (the majority?) who understand the meaning of collaboration and act accordingly. We have some fine examples of entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange - it works both ways, not just one-way. Bill Clark's excellent project comes to mind, Jack Kenworthy at the Island School, quite a few others. I'd like to hear their views on these issues. And Todd's, who has a clear vision of this. Also Mark, who most eloquently outlined the downside in her Homebrewer on a soapbox post: http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/18491/ In brief, what sort of small biofuels business do we support, and what sort do we not support? The excellent information developed collaboratively by list members and available to all in the archives and at Journey to Forever is or isn't available for commercial use, and
[biofuel] Re: methanol recovery before separation
this is before I worked with the hot water heaters.I't's a drum-based tank (110 gallons, two drums welded together) , identical to previous partly-sealed processors of mine but more tightly sealed. I didn't say aeration either. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maria, You might care to consider whether or not it's calcium and other residue in the lining of the hot H20 tank that you've converted to a processor that is lending to your cloud problem. Doubtful that aereation from the pump, of and by itself, is lending to the cloudiness. Todd Swearingen Me: this was biodiesel made from new oil, Todd- dry, new oil, with the right amount of methanol and lye added. My problem isn't soap alone. It's glycerol suspension somehow in this processor of mine (which I think is a complex problem which can also be caused by conversion, by soap, and by overagitation or by the type of agitiation. This processor I've got also differs from all the others I've ever used by the type of pump I'm using. SO for me two factors changed in the beginning of the spring when the cloudiness problem happened- closed processor, and new type of pump). The cloudiness is also very stubborn- it wont go away within three days of glycerol settling or anything. Waiting more than three days before washing isn't something I should have to do for a good wash, in my experience. THough in general the longer you wait the easier the washing process of course. I should have been having an easier time washing biodiesel made from new oil than I was, and I shouldn't have had so much glycerol hanging out in the biodiesel to begin with, in my past experience. If you want to identify and put to rest any questions about this 'back cracking' thing, use a soap test using bromophenol blue indicator and hydrochloric acid in a titration- it can tell you very precicely how much soap is made under what conditions. It's one of the more precise and easy tests we have . mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maria, You might care to reconsider the use of heated water or adding water to heated fuel when washing. The heat lends to emulsion formation more readily than water at ambient temperatures. While this is not so problematic with relatively clean parent stock, it can prove to be very ugly with feedstocks that titrate higher and are processed only with straight base (greater presence of soap). Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: methanol recovery before separation
Maria, Pumps tend to aereate when the return is not below the fluid line. Splashing, agitation, aereationalmost all the same kettle of phish. Still, it shouldn't matter one whit when it comes to clarity, as even the most micro of bubbles should come out of solution rather quickly. Next stop? Seasonal humidity? Barometric pressure? Beats hell outa' me. Separate it. Distill it. Wash it. Dry it. Then burn it. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: skillshare [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 12:02 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re: methanol recovery before separation this is before I worked with the hot water heaters.I't's a drum-based tank (110 gallons, two drums welded together) , identical to previous partly-sealed processors of mine but more tightly sealed. I didn't say aeration either. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maria, You might care to consider whether or not it's calcium and other residue in the lining of the hot H20 tank that you've converted to a processor that is lending to your cloud problem. Doubtful that aereation from the pump, of and by itself, is lending to the cloudiness. Todd Swearingen Me: this was biodiesel made from new oil, Todd- dry, new oil, with the right amount of methanol and lye added. My problem isn't soap alone. It's glycerol suspension somehow in this processor of mine (which I think is a complex problem which can also be caused by conversion, by soap, and by overagitation or by the type of agitiation. This processor I've got also differs from all the others I've ever used by the type of pump I'm using. SO for me two factors changed in the beginning of the spring when the cloudiness problem happened- closed processor, and new type of pump). The cloudiness is also very stubborn- it wont go away within three days of glycerol settling or anything. Waiting more than three days before washing isn't something I should have to do for a good wash, in my experience. THough in general the longer you wait the easier the washing process of course. I should have been having an easier time washing biodiesel made from new oil than I was, and I shouldn't have had so much glycerol hanging out in the biodiesel to begin with, in my past experience. If you want to identify and put to rest any questions about this 'back cracking' thing, use a soap test using bromophenol blue indicator and hydrochloric acid in a titration- it can tell you very precicely how much soap is made under what conditions. It's one of the more precise and easy tests we have . mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maria, You might care to reconsider the use of heated water or adding water to heated fuel when washing. The heat lends to emulsion formation more readily than water at ambient temperatures. While this is not so problematic with relatively clean parent stock, it can prove to be very ugly with feedstocks that titrate higher and are processed only with straight base (greater presence of soap). Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL
[biofuel] I called the EPA today- Jim Caldwell's explanation
I called Jim Caldwell at the EPA today to talk about the classification of biodiesel within the EPA registration process (ie whether it's classified as non-baseline or atypical), and to ask about the possible small business producer exemptions for Tier I/Tier II testing for EPA registration if it is classified as nonbaseline. He was very helpful and said that he gets a number of these calls and also that he had discussed the small producer issue with Joe Jobe of the NBB the previous week. The issue is this: onroad fuels are classified as baseline, non-baseline, or atypical by the EPA, and the EPA requires commercial producers to carry out various testing to prove health effects and emissions safety prior to being registered as a manufacturer of a fuel or fuel additive. Depending on the classification, there might be small business exemptions to some of the testing requirements. The cost of this testing or the alternative- joining the National Biodiesel Board for access to their EPA testing data, effectively bars smaller producers from being able to go into business making biodiesel for on-road use. This testing is very expensive- Tier I (literature review, and emissions testing) can cost up to $300,000 and Tier II (animal tests) can cost several million dollars. The National Biodiesel Board is the only entity that has carried out both of these rounds of testing as per the EPA requirements. Today, legally producing biodiesel for onroad use requires either spending several million dollars and several years to conduct a round of these tests, or joining the NBB for access to their data, (paying a $5,000 per year fee to the NBB, plus a production tax to the NBB for every gallon sold (or giving the NBB $100,000 as a non-member and hoping that they'll give it back to you by 2015 which they might not. In this way the NBB hopes to get back the money it spent on the Tier I and Tier II testing and the EPA supports them in this). There is a small business exemption from both Tier I/Tier II testing for just one of the categories, non-baseline. There is a different exemption for Tier II for smaller producers of the atypical category as well, although the slightly cheaper Tier I is still required. There are different definitions of `small producer' for the non-baseline exemption and the atypical exemption. IN the case of biodiesel, there has been some question over whether this fuel fits into the non-baseline category, or the atypical category (baseline category is essentially petroleum-specific). If it fits into the non-baseline category, small producers could be exempt from the burdensome cost of Tier I/Tier II testing or from the costs of joining the National Biodiesel Board, the only current alternative to conducting their own testing. It appears that biodiesel was originally intended to fall under the non-baseline category (from prior language in EPA documents). (Non-baseline describes a diesel fuel made containing more than 1% oxygen, which can be made from non-petroleum sources, contains nothing other than carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, sulfur, nitrogen, and contains less than .05% sulfur by weight. Biodiesel fits all of these criteria.) Unfortunately for biodiesel, the non-baseline classification also requires the fuel to conform to the PETROLEUM diesel standard, D-975-93. The properties of biodiesel fall outside of the D-975 standard in a few areas: the 90% distillation temperature (basically a spec to describe different grades of petrodiesel, irrelevant to biodiesel's operability in an engine or the emissions resulting), and viscosity. Anything not meeting baseline or non-baseline specifications, including the not meeting the D-975 standard for petrodiesel which biodiesel can not do, falls under another category, atypical. Jim Caldwell told me today that the reason why the EPA is now sticking to atypical categorisation of biodiesel, is due to the viscosity issue. Basically (my interpretation) they want testing to `prove' that the viscosity or other non-D-975 properties of biodiesel will not cause performance which leads to harmful emissions- they know all about how petrodiesel combusts when it has the D-975 properties, but they don't have the data to `prove' that biodiesel will behave the same way with a lower viscosity (and the fact that the NBB proved it to them is considered a sort of intellectual property of the NBB, so we can's just point to the NBB data without paying the NBB for use of the data). He said that in the early days of the writing of the regulations they (he?) were unaware of the viscosity distinctions between D-975 petrodiesel and biodiesel, and were willing to locate biodiesel in the non-baseline category, but more recently, since they have become aware of the viscosity differences, they believe it belongs in the atypical category because they have to take the most conservative approach in
[biofuel] Jeezus Todd Re: methanol recovery before separation
You still weren't listening to what I said (in your hurry to disprove it because I mentioned the awful, terrible name of 'infopop biodiesel forum'. I don' t always agree with what Neutral reports (or anyone else on any forum for that matter, you, me, ken,keith, whomever, we all get confused by things and we all have agendas to prove or disprove a favorite technique) - but he's not the only place I mentioned this reverse reaction info comes from. (and you ignored the patents part. Over on infopop 'they're' not exactly yakking it up about this issue - yes, it s not common, nor are the agitated conditions for it to occur common, so it's not surprising that you and I haven't seen it ourselves. If you'd like more information from actual real people who've worked on this problem rather than me relating to you some internet anecdote that hasn't happened to me personally, please call Jon Van Gerpen at Iowa State University- he's been recently investigating this exact reverse reaction phenomenon in regards to methanol recovery prior to separation in continuous process plants (and no it;'s not a common problem, and yes, their school has a GC so theres little guesswork involved in the research). His phone number is all over the www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel webpage. Really! you can do it). now back to homebrewing: I explained quite clearly that my cloudiness (and wash problem) was due to glycerine suspended which hadn't previously been happening, which I assume has something to do with not evaporating any methanol off, like my not-quite-sealed unit may have been doing. Not rocket science. Im actually curious if anyone ever gets perfectly clear unwashed fuel with just a couple of days of settling in a sealed processor, or if that clarity is just a relic of open-top units. The processor in question has a biodiesel drain that uses a standpipe , and I drain out the little bit of glycerol that collects in the standpipe first, so there's not an issue of contamination by bottom-draining (I think Todd's been rightly worried about this potential problem before). ANyway the whole issue for me is that separation is sometimes a problem even for homebrewers (the industry literature is full of anxiety about good separation, which homebrewers don't worry about, because time does the trick for us since we don't have to worry about fast throughput). and of course methanol recovery would help that. I also think based on my experience with heated washing that you're just being stubborn and are knocking it from the safety of your own armchair. If you had tried it, you'd see that no, biodiesel and water, oil and water, whatever your'e washing, all separate much quicker with a heated wash, and you just about can't get emulsion with a heated bubblewash. Come on, you can try it- even before furiously writing anything- just go to the lab, pick up a sample of unwashed fuel, and do a wash test on it, heated (put the jar into a water bath with a lid on the jar so the methanol doesn't evaporate) against a cold control of the same exact fuel. It'll make a difference, I promise you. Now the issue is not whether it's worth the BTU''s- that's not what you said- you were just promising that it'd cause worse emulsion problems and I can basically promise anybody that it's going to be the opposite- based on experience in my case. By the way I had a weird accident this summer where I accidentaly left some bubblewashing fuel on a timer with the heat also on a timer for a week. It wasn't great fuel and it was on it's first wash- prime candidate for emulsification due to overagitation. The heat timer would go on every day and a couple of hours later the bubbler would kick on bubbling for a couple of hours. The temperature was probably 110F by the time the bubbling started. Now this was a terrible waste of heat and electricity!!! and was an accident- but it had an interesting result. The fuel not only didn't emulsify, but it was 'done washing' at the end of the week, with no wash water changes (that's a pretty good balance of biodiesel to water). What I was using as a criteria for 'done washing' was the fact that it cleared it's water haze at room temperature within a few hours of being turned off ( I check for water haze by cooling a sample in the freezer in the summer). Mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maria, Pumps tend to aereate when the return is not below the fluid line. Splashing, agitation, aereationalmost all the same kettle of phish. Still, it shouldn't matter one whit when it comes to clarity, as even the most micro of bubbles should come out of solution rather quickly. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maria, You might care to reconsider the use of heated water or adding water to heated fuel when washing. The heat lends to emulsion
Re: [biofuel] Studied Neglect
MM, Seeing it from the outside, the only US politician on that level, that ever made any technical sense when he talk, is Al Gore. The others I heard, either do not know enough or do not want to know. He is not running, so I do not know what you can do. I followed some of the debates and Bush already have a record, so we know where he stands on those issues, he does not want to know. It is now several countries in Europe who is effectively working on active distributed grids, Germany and The Netherlands are the most visible samples, but the Nordic countries as well and several of the new EU members. It is actually EU directives in that direction. The same on Biofuels and effective building codes. I am today more positive on what is going on in EU, than I was a year ago. I do not know why US have all those road blocks, if it is not a corrupted administration. I heard a speech by Al Gore and he seemed to understand the energy issues and also know of the development in EU. The large shift towards diesel engine is not a random event. VWs determination to get where they are today, world leader in diesel engines, is not random either. I do not know what to say to cheer you up, I assume that this about EU does not really help you. I did not know that this about net-metering was only lip-service in US and was a bit surprised. On paper US looks very progressive on it. Interesting information, but a bit sad. Hakan At 07:22 16/12/2003, you wrote: The other day I spoke to a woman near Tucson, Arizona (an hour from where I am moving) who had done a lot with her 5 acres, her livestock, her house and who and some real interest and expertise in engineering. She had looked into installing some solar PV a year or two ago and had run into the really bad Net Metering laws or practices that were in place in her area. There was no way that financially the math could add up for her to install the PV. Not being wealthy enough to do such a project for do-gooder reasons, she opted to wait it out. She had also run into a Colorado resident who had run into precisely the same raw deal. I've *never* heard the President or Vice President discuss or mention this issue, and yet it is central to promulgating a new Distributed Energy Paradigm (which they imply they want but apparently don't actually give a damn about). This is deliberate neglect of an issue, in my view, perpetrated in order to stall the implementation of a good idea. We see that the best way to defeat a good idea is to nip it in the bud from the onset by not allowing that it even exists, by never mentioning it, never bringing it up, never discussing it. Anyone who tries to do so is dismissed as overly-concerned about obscure overly-environmental impractical nonsense. There are of course other technologies and nuances to technological and societal and political science issues which also suffer from this intensely effective strategy of studied neglect. Regenerative brakes come to mind, not to mention one or two biofuel-related issues, not to mention some other solar-energy related issues. But I think it is worthwhile to mention this particular area, of Net-Metering. It's been obvious for many years now that some leadership at the national level is needed to at least bring some attention to this issue, if not to offer streamlined and *fair* guidelines or laws, that will make sure that neither consumer nor utility get a raw deal. MM Do not be so sure, they are professional on making mistakes. Think about all the money spent on finding WMDs and Iraqi freedom . As a byproduct of this mistake, they now control maybe the largest oil reserves on Earth. The money that is spent on hydrogen freedom car, might end up to be a competitive range of diesel engines. VW seems to have close to 50% of that market otherwise. When the current administration use the word freedom, it can be anything. Hakan Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Studied Neglect
The other day I spoke to a woman near Tucson, Arizona (an hour from where I am moving) who had done a lot with her 5 acres, her livestock, her house and who and some real interest and expertise in engineering. She had looked into installing some solar PV a year or two ago and had run into the really bad Net Metering laws or practices that were in place in her area. There was no way that financially the math could add up for her to install the PV. Not being wealthy enough to do such a project for do-gooder reasons, she opted to wait it out. She had also run into a Colorado resident who had run into precisely the same raw deal. I've *never* heard the President or Vice President discuss or mention this issue, and yet it is central to promulgating a new Distributed Energy Paradigm (which they imply they want but apparently don't actually give a damn about). This is deliberate neglect of an issue, in my view, perpetrated in order to stall the implementation of a good idea. We see that the best way to defeat a good idea is to nip it in the bud from the onset by not allowing that it even exists, by never mentioning it, never bringing it up, never discussing it. Anyone who tries to do so is dismissed as overly-concerned about obscure overly-environmental impractical nonsense. There are of course other technologies and nuances to technological and societal and political science issues which also suffer from this intensely effective strategy of studied neglect. Regenerative brakes come to mind, not to mention one or two biofuel-related issues, not to mention some other solar-energy related issues. But I think it is worthwhile to mention this particular area, of Net-Metering. It's been obvious for many years now that some leadership at the national level is needed to at least bring some attention to this issue, if not to offer streamlined and *fair* guidelines or laws, that will make sure that neither consumer nor utility get a raw deal. MM Do not be so sure, they are professional on making mistakes. Think about all the money spent on finding WMDs and Iraqi freedom . As a byproduct of this mistake, they now control maybe the largest oil reserves on Earth. The money that is spent on hydrogen freedom car, might end up to be a competitive range of diesel engines. VW seems to have close to 50% of that market otherwise. When the current administration use the word freedom, it can be anything. Hakan Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
