date:20040427


Greg,

In responding to your initial post, I was not aware that you were 
referring to abortion.  I thought that you were talking of people 
killed by medical negligence or malpractice.  

As for the e-mail that you sent:

IF you are going to comment in a negative manner on their feelings 
on the
matter, please be ready to explain why YOUR feelings on the subject 
are
worthy of any more consideration than theirs !! To do so would, quite
simply, be akin to claiming that their opinions were worth less than 
yours
because, perhaps, their skins are darker in color than yours !!(in 
case you forgot what you wrote to me),

I don't believe that I have ever given any indication here or 
anywhere else that my feelings on any subject are worthy of any more 
consideration than anyone else's.  In fact, I think that I have been 
quite respectful to the right of others to have their own opinions, 
and the times I have replied are to thank people for sharing what 
they think.  Other than your off hand comment on doctors killing 
people, I don't think that I have ever responded negatively to what 
anyone has said.  And, I don't have any idea of the skin color of 
the people on the board, as you and they have no idea on mine.  So, 
just what is your point here?

In case you hadn't noticed, I have not commented on my thoughts on 
abortion.  I agree that it is not a subject relevant to this board.  
While I find political discussion related to energy concerns to be 
quite appropriate to this board (just my opinion, others are, of 
course, free to disagree), I can't find a connection between energy 
issues and abortion or gun control.

Brian

--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 At 7:08 AM 4/26/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi Greg,
 
 Please provide a source for your statement number 2. On the face 
of it, I
 find it highly unlikely.
 
 Derek
 
 Simple. Read any statistics on the number of abortions performed 
in the USA
 annually.
 
 Greg
 
  1. Your handgun related death number is grossly inflated.
 
  2. The number killed in car wrecks annually is, incredibly, 
only a small
  fraction of the number killed by medical doctors each year !!
 
  Regards,
 
  Greg




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Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments


Have been catching bits and pieces of solar news here in Arizona.  The
2nd largest PV installation in the world is in Springerville (3 or 4
MW I think the largest is in Italy) and I did see an
interesting news release about a planned thermal solar project
somewhere around here.  Not the size given in the Australian project,
but I'll believe that one when I see it built.

Anyway, checking around (Bloomberg.com, etc.) it looks like that
Australia solar thermal project is being run by EVM.AX (yahoo system
stock symbols) a publicly traded australian company.  Market cap is
too small for this project, but interesting anyway.  Also ran across
eil.ax, 

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=EIL:AU

which definitely fits my goals for a biofuel-related publicly traded
investment, although it also is too small for this particularly
project.  Their profile:

Environmental Infrastructure Limited develops renewable energy in Australia. 
The Company converts food waste into green energy and organic fertilizer which 
reduces greenhouse gas emissions and landfill demand. Organic waste from food 
manufacturing, food retailing and hospitality sectors is recycled to form 
biogas which is used for heat and electricity.



On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 16:58:49 +, you wrote:

Hi,

I guess a good excuse to take a trip to Australia!! One would think that if it 
were working well in Manzanares, they would have left it functioning.

Regards,

Derek



 
 Derek,
 
 I do not think that Spain can show anything today,
 
 Scientists have already built a successful prototype in Manzanares, Spain. 
 The plant operated from 1982 and 1989 and had a consistent output of 50 
 kilowatts of green energy. 
 
 Do not operate after 1989 as far as I can understand.
 
 Hakan
 
 
 
 At 18:35 26/04/2004, you wrote:
 Hi Art,
 
 Thank you for the link. Very interesting. I get to Spain from time-to-time 
 and I'd like to try and see the prototype.
 
 Derek
 
 
 Derek,
 
 Try this one for size:
 
 http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/21/aus_power_020821http://www.cbc.ca/storie
 s/2002/08/21/aus_power_020821
 
 Art




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Re: [biofuel] Re: oil from algae...

2004-04-27 Thread wwschnabel


I asked a while ago if anyone had any info on Oil from algae.

What I would like to do is an experiment.  

Does anyone have any info on how exactly to extract the oil from algae?  Could 
I do it in a home lab?

Thanks,

Bill

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Re: [biofuel] Biodiesel Class Tour... coming Re: biodiesel class

2004-04-27 Thread rico suavae


Hey Brian! Actually i'm in nw ind.in Whiting,right on the lake.Whereabouts are 
you?

 Paul

Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If you do end up doing anything in the Chicago area, please let the 
list know as well.  I'm in Indiana, and would definitely be 
interested in coming to a workshop.

Brian

--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, rico suavae [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'd be intrested in anything that turns up around the Chi Town/tri 
state area.Please contact me off list.
 Paul
 
 girl_mark_fire [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I've gotten quite a flurry of off-list interest from people in 
other 
 areas of the country who want to host a workshop due to my 
biodiesel 
 class 'tour' rumors. Here's some of my other plans:
 
 -Im going to Albuquerque and Tucson in May to tie up some loose 
ends 
 from my past, and would love to stop and teach a workshop or two 
 elsewhere in the Southwest, like Flagstaff or Phoenix or Silver 
City 
 or Southern Colorado perhaps (won't go further than Albuquerque 
though 
 this time around...)
 
 
 -I'm flying (ie no equipment, and therefore no classes) to the NBB 
 meeting in Washington DC on July 12  and 13th, and a few of us are 
 talking about having a small-scale commercial producers' 
 dinner/get-together on one of the evenings during that meeting. 
I'll 
 post details if this happens, and they will be discussed at www.
 groups.yahoo.com/group/local-b100-biz
 
 -Then I'm co-teaching at SEI (the incredible solar technology 
 education center in Colorado, www.solarenergy.org I believe) with 
 Martin of Boulder Biodiesel Coop in late July. This should be a 
great 
 class- a five-day (?)biodiesel camp- and I'd also like to find a 
 student who is going there who would like to build equipment as 
part 
 of the class.
 
 Then I'm leaving from there and coming to the Midwest to do a tour 
in 
 August (the options so far for me are madison, chicago, st louis, 
 milwaukee possibly), and then I'd like to end up in North Carolina 
 (asheville, boone? and Triangle area) for a few weeks (early 
 september?) and therefore could swing up to Virginia someplace if 
 there was interest for a class up there.
 
 The same deal applies as the Tucson class announcement: I can do a 
 regular day-long (or longer minicourse) class in basics of 
biodiesel 
 homebrewing, and if people think there is interest, I can do an 
 equipment building class. 
 
 I'm missing out on a job to do this in August (and my old truck is 
 wearing out!), so I'd need to charge something for these classes, 
 which is usually $20-$50 per student per day for the ones I do in 
 California. (I run the pre-registration/advertising, and bring 
 everything needed for the class, and I have to put in quite a few 
full 
 days of prep for the equipment class especially). 
 
 I can also (to afford this tour) simply build reactors for 
individuals 
 who don't want to coordinate a class but are are 'along the route'. 
 I've done a few of these already and I charge $200 labor, on top of 
 your equipment costs. I think I'm bringing a small MIG welder with 
me 
 on the August tour so some custom tank work is possible. I'll 
probably 
 be traveling with another biodieseler or two but it won't be like 
 inviting the whole Rainbow Family to your farm or anything scary.
 
 More on the Midwest stuff later as I make more firm plans.
 
 thank you everybody for the interest in this!
 mark
 
 
 
 --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Grahams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  Gee if you want to do one of those workshops in VA, we would 
 volunteer!
 
  Caroline
 
 
 
 
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[biofuel] Re: OT: auto safety tips

2004-04-27 Thread f150_351m


--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 To what you're written I would add some mention of public
 transportation, which in the end I'm guessing is dramatically safer
 per passenger-mile traveled, in addition perhaps to having some
 different uses of fuel per passeger-mile traveled, and perhaps
having
 some different 'valuation' of those passenger miles (in that a
person
 who has chosen to live in an urban environment may need to travel
 fewer miles per task), and I would add something somewhat related,
 which is some fundamental altering in our city and general planning.


Perhaps someday I'll live somewhere that public transportation exists
at all, let alone exists as a real alternative for driving.  Eight
towns in three states so far, and nowhere I could get a bus or a train
to work.  I do see horse and buggy rigs on the road around here,
though.  8^)

I know it works in some areas, but that doesn't help the rest of us.

Ed




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Re: [biofuel] OT: auto safety tips

2004-04-27 Thread rico suavae


If I may humbly add my two cents.
During the Viet Nam war many comparisons were made to the carnage on the roads 
and the death toll of the war.I too am with out substantiated facts but my dim 
bulb memory tells me that at the time the rates were comparable.
I suppose one could call their insurance agent and ask what the actuarial 
tables were for a given year on auto deaths and have the answer in a wink.
given the population increase in the US,even an offset by increased safety 
would probably make this number a constant.But,again thats just a guess on my 
part.
I came in a little late on the conversation.I'm a pro lifer.But for 
the life of me I can't make the connection between auto deaths and 
abortions.Unless...someone was preforming one when they crashed the car.
   Paul

Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At 7:08 AM 4/26/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi Greg,
 
 Please provide a source for your statement number 2. On the face of it, I
 find it highly unlikely.
 
 Derek
 
Simple. Read any statistics on the number of abortions performed in the USA
annually.

Greg

Oh-ho, here we go - guns and abortions, LOL! Here's some more 
polarisation for you Robert, not that you wanted it. Now I guess the 
rest of us get to sit back and gaze in wonder at the American 
dysfunction in action.

Greg, those one million women who just marched in Washington all 
reckon you're wrong, seems they feel rather strongly about it.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18507
Pro-Choice March Largest in History

Well, that's just a few of the American women. Trouble is young 
master Bush has gone and revived the Reagan-era global gag rule that 
denies U.S. funds to international family planning groups that use 
their own money for abortion counselling, services or lobbying even 
though it's legal in their own countries.

I always wondered what sort of keyhole view it took to call it 
pro-life, blithely giving a Nelson's eye to all the women who get 
killed and the foetuses too because they get left with no other 
choice than those helpful back-alley ladies who poke around with a 
bent clothes-hanger. You think it's a myth, Greg?

Check out all the women in this photograph:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/11/images/20031105-1_p354 
10-21-515h.html

Ogres.

Best

Keith



  1. Your handgun related death number is grossly inflated.
 
  2. The number killed in car wrecks annually is, incredibly, only a small
  fraction of the number killed by medical doctors each year !!
 
  Regards,
 
  Greg



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Re: [biofuel] OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report

2004-04-27 Thread robert luis rabello




Hakan Falk wrote:


 Robert,

 It was very interesting to read your thorough analysis, they are very 
 good.
 It will be difficult to get the Iraqi oil on line, as long as the
 occupation continues and I think that Bush understand that and that is 
 why
 he pushes the June deadline.


He may be a bit simple minded, but I don't think the man is entirely 
without wit.  There is a political element to this as well, given that 
daily casualty reports are an irritant to the voting public.  Mr. Bush 
faces another election in November, and I think he'd like to have power 
handed over already so that he can distance himself from the daily 
carnage, call the operation a success, wave the flag a bit more and stir 
up additional political support.  (Not that he's going to need it with 
the campaign funding he's already amassed!)

 The problem is that it is an other naive
 miscalculation, to belive that they can have a strong puppet regime.

Didn't the British have that experience in the 1930's?  I recall 
reading that the RAF had to enforce an unpopular tax by strafing 
unfriendly villages.  I hope we don't resort to such tactics this time 
around.

 It is
 in a hurry, because without Iraq, it is no space for swing production and
 any pressures to keep oil prices low. The Saudis have always been in
 support of US, but I think that all the anti Saudi talk, is bringing this
 to an end and with serious consequences. They will not make the 
 mistake to
 declare this openly, but the result will be the same and the anti Saudi
 talk will be even stronger. The only disaster that US is missing, is a 
 very
 bad relationship with the Saudis (declared 25% of the worlds oil 
 reserves,
 but probably largely over estimated).

Saudi Arabia is a SERIOUS problem for us.  Alan's post that 
originated this thread may illustrate the links between the Bush family 
and the House of Saud, but nobody seems too willing to discuss the 
potential problems that may arise when King Faud dies.

 Of course, US can always go back to
 try Venezuela again. LOL

We've been bullies in Latin America for a long time.  That region of 
the world is particularly dear to me.


 It is also an other small thing that make the Iraqi situation difficult.
 With the first Gulf war, where the Americans wiped out the Iraqi army, 
 the
 US led embargo that killed at least 5,000 children a year and finally the
 invasion of Iraq, it is very few families in Iraq who did not have a 
 family
 member or a friend killed by the Americans. After all, 80% of the Iraqi
 population is women and children under 16 years of age. The Americans do
 not have the finesse of Saddam, were the parts of population was played
 against each other, a sort of politics. The Americans are more true to 
 the
 American democracy, they kill everybody, without any prejudice to race,
 color or position. I think that it is the trigger happiness in Wild West
 style.

I woudn't say that.  Whoever puts the most ordinance on target 
usually wins in a conventional war; a lesson the Russians learned from 
Napolean and used with devastating effect on the Wermacht at the end of 
WW II.  I've said before that the military is a blunt instrument, at 
best.  Our armed services effectively destroyed the world's fourth 
largest army because the weapons systems and tactics we've developed 
are intended to deliver maximum firepower on a given target.  
(Especially the Soviet equipment that largely made up Saddam's army.)  
That works well in conventional warfare against readily identifiable 
targets.  The asymmetrical tactics being used by the opposition in Iraq 
cannot be effectively countered this way because the political costs for 
slaying civilians en-masse is too high for us to pay.

 I have a couple of simple questions. Is it possible to win the
 peoples harts and mind, when you killed the same peoples grandfather,
 grandmother, father, mother, brother, sister or friends? Is it not a very
 naive proposition?

I think it's unlikely that we will win much Iraqi admiration.  Most 
of us over here will be shocked at this, but that's because so few of us 
can see the conflict from the same perspective as the average Iraqi.

 You are right, to get the Iraqi oil on line, US have to be even more
 ruthless than the evil dictator Saddam, at least he was a native and they
 could take it from one of their own. I do not belive that this is 
 possible
 for the American society. It is too many decent Americans, for Bush to 
 get
 away with it.

You have great faith!  I sense a different mood among my 
countrymen.  I hope you are right and I am wrong.


 The best chance of success would be to make a deal and reinstate Saddam,
 but this is not going to happen. Although they now are reinstating 
 parts of
 the Baath party members. LOL

I don't think Saddam will ever see power again.

 The current junta is without a chance and the will be the next victims of
 US policies, it would not be the

[biofuel] Heating tank to boil water/fatty acids to WVO before processing 10 gal batches

2004-04-27 Thread Kevin Shea


Hello,

I've looked at all sorts of designs to base my processor on, but don't see too 
much emphasis on processor equipment designed to boiling WVO as the 1st step 
(to rid of water and to breakdown crystallized fatty acids) to prepare WVO to 
the next stage.  (This would be filtered, titration gathered and introduced to 
intake valve to the fumeless processor, or some other method, etc.)

I live in the Northeast USA and WVO crystallizes all the time.  (Just last 
night, I left 3 carboys of oil on the porch and this morning all were 50% 
crystallized!  I have oil under the porch that has solidified, but on sunny 
day's, it's perfect for processing!

I would like to see a design able to heat a 15 gal drum. with 10 gal.of WVO to 
212F-260F to remove water vapor from oil and to breakdown fatty acids.  Some 
kind of kettle?

I'm hoping to construct this proposed 15 gal metal drum with electric heaters, 
but could really use some help with what heaters I need and possibly vendor 
info that could  heat batches?  I would like this to be electric and not heated 
by a flame source.

Any help.
Send pictures to [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Thank you, 
Kevin Shea


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Re: [biofuel] OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report


Robert,

I would like to pass on something I learned in the last war the US began to 
prevent communism from taking over and to establish Democracy in a third world 
nation (and we lost that one rather badly).  I served honorably in the Vietnam 
War and this was my combat lesson in a sentence. 

TECHNOLOGY CANNOT BEAT IDEOLOGY! 

When people are willing to run into the face of guns armed only with a broken 
stick and a willingness to die - Technology shock and awe is reversed against 
those who only bring technology onto the battlefield.  I know.  Let us not 
learn that lesson again.

Art Krenzel
  - Original Message - 
  From: robert luis rabello 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 9:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report




  Hakan Falk wrote:

  
   Robert,
  
   It was very interesting to read your thorough analysis, they are very 
   good.
   It will be difficult to get the Iraqi oil on line, as long as the
   occupation continues and I think that Bush understand that and that is 
   why
   he pushes the June deadline.


  He may be a bit simple minded, but I don't think the man is entirely 
  without wit.  There is a political element to this as well, given that 
  daily casualty reports are an irritant to the voting public.  Mr. Bush 
  faces another election in November, and I think he'd like to have power 
  handed over already so that he can distance himself from the daily 
  carnage, call the operation a success, wave the flag a bit more and stir 
  up additional political support.  (Not that he's going to need it with 
  the campaign funding he's already amassed!)

   The problem is that it is an other naive
   miscalculation, to belive that they can have a strong puppet regime.

  Didn't the British have that experience in the 1930's?  I recall 
  reading that the RAF had to enforce an unpopular tax by strafing 
  unfriendly villages.  I hope we don't resort to such tactics this time 
  around.

   It is
   in a hurry, because without Iraq, it is no space for swing production and
   any pressures to keep oil prices low. The Saudis have always been in
   support of US, but I think that all the anti Saudi talk, is bringing this
   to an end and with serious consequences. They will not make the 
   mistake to
   declare this openly, but the result will be the same and the anti Saudi
   talk will be even stronger. The only disaster that US is missing, is a 
   very
   bad relationship with the Saudis (declared 25% of the worlds oil 
   reserves,
   but probably largely over estimated).

  Saudi Arabia is a SERIOUS problem for us.  Alan's post that 
  originated this thread may illustrate the links between the Bush family 
  and the House of Saud, but nobody seems too willing to discuss the 
  potential problems that may arise when King Faud dies.

   Of course, US can always go back to
   try Venezuela again. LOL

  We've been bullies in Latin America for a long time.  That region of 
  the world is particularly dear to me.

  
   It is also an other small thing that make the Iraqi situation difficult.
   With the first Gulf war, where the Americans wiped out the Iraqi army, 
   the
   US led embargo that killed at least 5,000 children a year and finally the
   invasion of Iraq, it is very few families in Iraq who did not have a 
   family
   member or a friend killed by the Americans. After all, 80% of the Iraqi
   population is women and children under 16 years of age. The Americans do
   not have the finesse of Saddam, were the parts of population was played
   against each other, a sort of politics. The Americans are more true to 
   the
   American democracy, they kill everybody, without any prejudice to race,
   color or position. I think that it is the trigger happiness in Wild West
   style.

  I woudn't say that.  Whoever puts the most ordinance on target 
  usually wins in a conventional war; a lesson the Russians learned from 
  Napolean and used with devastating effect on the Wermacht at the end of 
  WW II.  I've said before that the military is a blunt instrument, at 
  best.  Our armed services effectively destroyed the world's fourth 
  largest army because the weapons systems and tactics we've developed 
  are intended to deliver maximum firepower on a given target.  
  (Especially the Soviet equipment that largely made up Saddam's army.)  
  That works well in conventional warfare against readily identifiable 
  targets.  The asymmetrical tactics being used by the opposition in Iraq 
  cannot be effectively countered this way because the political costs for 
  slaying civilians en-masse is too high for us to pay.

   I have a couple of simple questions. Is it possible to win the
   peoples harts and mind, when you killed the same peoples grandfather,
   grandmother, father, mother, brother, sister or friends? Is it not a very
   naive proposition?

  I think it's unlikely that we

Re: [biofuel] Cellulose-Alcohol story.


Hi Art

The list is set to reject attachments, as well as html or coded 
messages (ASCII - plain text only) as an essential anti-virus measure.

If you send me the attachment direct I can put it where folk can see 
it, either at Journey to Forever or in the list Files area (which is 
not very useful since Yahoo improved it).

Best

Keith



Todd,

Take a look at the attachment.

Thanks for not raining on my parade!  :-)

Art
  - Original Message -
  From: Appal Energy
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 5:27 PM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story.


  Hellow Art,

  Rather than raining on anyone's parade, how about sharing the source of what
  you read.

  Ethanol is one dickens of a burgeoning industry. Either it has some
  economical and/or environmental merit or it's the biggest scam since
  organized religion.

  Wouldn't hurt to let an audience decide for themselves.

  Todd Swearingen

  - Original Message -
  From: Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 3:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story.


   RR,
  
   Sorry to rain on your parade but the recent numbers that I read from as
  late as a year ago, when the costs of production include replacement cost of
  farm machinery and consumables, the equation is a break even at best but
  more likely still a loss.  I am willing to listen but show me the data and
  the source.
  
   Also, what is the concentration of the 70 gallons of ethanol produced from
  the cellulose?  That is, most likely, a theoretical number which is probably
  based on dilute solutions.  One of the constraints on ethanol production is
  that as the concentration of alcohol increases the fermentation slows down.
  Advertisers of technology tout yields of dilute concentrations of ethanol -
  producers (who have to distill the dilute water solutions) push delivered
  cents per gallon costs of ethanol.  The difference is quite wide and affects
  the bottom line harshly.
  
   What is the methanol from the products of hydrolysis statement?  Are you
  speaking of converting the hydrolyzed biomass to methane biogas and
  catalytically converting that to methanol?
  
   I am looking forward to the education.
  
   Art
 - Original Message -
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 11:57 AM
 Subject: [biofuel] Re: Re: Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story.
  
  
 Art,
  
 You should consider not using old numbers on energy used in ethanol
 production.  It has been discussed several times in this forum how
  current,
 and more accurate, numbers show that producing ethanol, at least from
  corn,
 is energy positive, not energy negative.  Not to mention the newer
  processes
 that include the corn stalk, which double the alcohol output.
  
 Not meant to start yet another dispute with regard to fuel from food, or
 sustainability needs of returning waste to the fields.
  
 From what I've read, one ton of waste paper (cellulose) can produce
 approximately 70 gallons of ethanol, compare this to the approximately
  92
 gallons from one ton of corn, I'd say it's pretty reasonable output.
  This
 doesn't include creating methanol from the waste product from the
 hydrolysis process, created earlier in the lignin/cellulose separation
 phase.  Also, it seems that the problem is with producing workable
  enzymes
 to extract the cellulose from the lignin.  I've seen a reference to 15
  cents
 US, per gallon, for the enzyme costs (unsure of the date of that paper),
  but
 it sounds pretty darn cheap to me to produce ethanol from waste
  cellulose or
 wood products, for the enzymes that is.
  
 If the feedstock is free or nearly free...and I realize that's not the
  only
 step in the process, but it is the significant one in my view.
  
  
 Message: 21
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 09:12:14 -0700
From: Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story.
  
 RR,
  
 If you do not see any reason why only mineral residues should be
  returned to
 soil, you do not understand how natural soil works.  The carbon which is
 returned in the form of a soil amendment acts as food for the biology
  which
 converts soil minerals into plant available materials for growth.
  Otherwise
 all the material to be consumed by the plant would need to be already
 processed to plant available materials before the plant can use them.
 Depleted soils are those which have too little active biology present
 (organic matter) to do the processing and/or too little mineral matter
  to
 convert to plant available foods.  Returning organic matter is the key
  to
 soil sustainability, not just minerals.
  
 One of the limiting factor in converting any organic material to

[biofuel] Re: oil from algae...

2004-04-27 Thread Marc Orion Cardoso


-
 Hi,
 go to ecogenics for info on oil from algae.
www dabney.com/ecogenics/
we work with algae extensively..
Marc
  




-- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, wwschnabel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I asked a while ago if anyone had any info on Oil from algae.
 
 What I would like to do is an experiment.  
 
 Does anyone have any info on how exactly to extract the oil from 
algae?  Could I do it in a home lab?
 
 Thanks,
 
 Bill
 
 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Re: [biofuel] OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report

2004-04-27 Thread jtcava


Too bad we haven't learned this lesson yet.Let's keep an eye on the 
situation developing in our country with the disparity between what 
government wants and what We the People want.Nuff said.

Regards,
John

Art Krenzel wrote:

snip

TECHNOLOGY CANNOT BEAT IDEOLOGY! 

When people are willing to run into the face of guns armed only with a broken 
stick and a willingness to die - Technology shock and awe is reversed against 
those who only bring technology onto the battlefield.  I know.  Let us not 
learn that lesson again.

Art Krenzel
  - Original Message - 
  From: robert luis rabello 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 9:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report




  Hakan Falk wrote:

  
   Robert,
  
   It was very interesting to read your thorough analysis, they are very 
   good.
   It will be difficult to get the Iraqi oil on line, as long as the
   occupation continues and I think that Bush understand that and that is 
   why
   he pushes the June deadline.


  He may be a bit simple minded, but I don't think the man is entirely 
  without wit.  There is a political element to this as well, given that 
  daily casualty reports are an irritant to the voting public.  Mr. Bush 
  faces another election in November, and I think he'd like to have power 
  handed over already so that he can distance himself from the daily 
  carnage, call the operation a success, wave the flag a bit more and stir 
  up additional political support.  (Not that he's going to need it with 
  the campaign funding he's already amassed!)

   The problem is that it is an other naive
   miscalculation, to belive that they can have a strong puppet regime.

  Didn't the British have that experience in the 1930's?  I recall 
  reading that the RAF had to enforce an unpopular tax by strafing 
  unfriendly villages.  I hope we don't resort to such tactics this time 
  around.

   It is
   in a hurry, because without Iraq, it is no space for swing production and
   any pressures to keep oil prices low. The Saudis have always been in
   support of US, but I think that all the anti Saudi talk, is bringing this
   to an end and with serious consequences. They will not make the 
   mistake to
   declare this openly, but the result will be the same and the anti Saudi
   talk will be even stronger. The only disaster that US is missing, is a 
   very
   bad relationship with the Saudis (declared 25% of the worlds oil 
   reserves,
   but probably largely over estimated).

  Saudi Arabia is a SERIOUS problem for us.  Alan's post that 
  originated this thread may illustrate the links between the Bush family 
  and the House of Saud, but nobody seems too willing to discuss the 
  potential problems that may arise when King Faud dies.

   Of course, US can always go back to
   try Venezuela again. LOL

  We've been bullies in Latin America for a long time.  That region of 
  the world is particularly dear to me.

  
   It is also an other small thing that make the Iraqi situation difficult.
   With the first Gulf war, where the Americans wiped out the Iraqi army, 
   the
   US led embargo that killed at least 5,000 children a year and finally the
   invasion of Iraq, it is very few families in Iraq who did not have a 
   family
   member or a friend killed by the Americans. After all, 80% of the Iraqi
   population is women and children under 16 years of age. The Americans do
   not have the finesse of Saddam, were the parts of population was played
   against each other, a sort of politics. The Americans are more true to 
   the
   American democracy, they kill everybody, without any prejudice to race,
   color or position. I think that it is the trigger happiness in Wild West
   style.

  I woudn't say that.  Whoever puts the most ordinance on target 
  usually wins in a conventional war; a lesson the Russians learned from 
  Napolean and used with devastating effect on the Wermacht at the end of 
  WW II.  I've said before that the military is a blunt instrument, at 
  best.  Our armed services effectively destroyed the world's fourth 
  largest army because the weapons systems and tactics we've developed 
  are intended to deliver maximum firepower on a given target.  
  (Especially the Soviet equipment that largely made up Saddam's army.)  
  That works well in conventional warfare against readily identifiable 
  targets.  The asymmetrical tactics being used by the opposition in Iraq 
  cannot be effectively countered this way because the political costs for 
  slaying civilians en-masse is too high for us to pay.

   I have a couple of simple questions. Is it possible to win the
   peoples harts and mind, when you killed the same peoples grandfather,
   grandmother, father, mother, brother, sister or friends? Is it not a very
   naive proposition?

  I think it's unlikely that we will win much Iraqi admiration.  Most 
  of us over here will

[biofuel] Re: OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report


I had read a fantastic short story relating to just this issue about 
20 years ago.  I thought it was by Steinbeck, but have been unable 
to ever find it again.  It was about residents in a northern 
European town occupied by the nazis, and their underground 
resistance.  The point to the story was exactly that people will 
continue to fight for ideology long after they are clearly defeated, 
and that this is a fight that can't be lost in the long run.  I 
wiswh that I could find that story again.

Brian

--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 Robert,
 
 I would like to pass on something I learned in the last war the US 
began to prevent communism from taking over and to establish 
Democracy in a third world nation (and we lost that one rather 
badly).  I served honorably in the Vietnam War and this was my 
combat lesson in a sentence. 
 
 TECHNOLOGY CANNOT BEAT IDEOLOGY! 
 
 When people are willing to run into the face of guns armed only 
with a broken stick and a willingness to die - Technology shock and 
awe is reversed against those who only bring technology onto the 
battlefield.  I know.  Let us not learn that lesson again.
 
 Art Krenzel
   - Original Message - 
   From: robert luis rabello 
   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
   Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 9:11 PM
   Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book 
report
 
 
 
 
   Hakan Falk wrote:
 
   
Robert,
   
It was very interesting to read your thorough analysis, they 
are very 
good.
It will be difficult to get the Iraqi oil on line, as long as 
the
occupation continues and I think that Bush understand that and 
that is 
why
he pushes the June deadline.
 
 
   He may be a bit simple minded, but I don't think the man is 
entirely 
   without wit.  There is a political element to this as well, 
given that 
   daily casualty reports are an irritant to the voting public.  
Mr. Bush 
   faces another election in November, and I think he'd like to 
have power 
   handed over already so that he can distance himself from the 
daily 
   carnage, call the operation a success, wave the flag a bit more 
and stir 
   up additional political support.  (Not that he's going to need 
it with 
   the campaign funding he's already amassed!)
 
The problem is that it is an other naive
miscalculation, to belive that they can have a strong puppet 
regime.
 
   Didn't the British have that experience in the 1930's?  I 
recall 
   reading that the RAF had to enforce an unpopular tax by strafing 
   unfriendly villages.  I hope we don't resort to such tactics 
this time 
   around.
 
It is
in a hurry, because without Iraq, it is no space for swing 
production and
any pressures to keep oil prices low. The Saudis have always 
been in
support of US, but I think that all the anti Saudi talk, is 
bringing this
to an end and with serious consequences. They will not make 
the 
mistake to
declare this openly, but the result will be the same and the 
anti Saudi
talk will be even stronger. The only disaster that US is 
missing, is a 
very
bad relationship with the Saudis (declared 25% of the worlds 
oil 
reserves,
but probably largely over estimated).
 
   Saudi Arabia is a SERIOUS problem for us.  Alan's post that 
   originated this thread may illustrate the links between the Bush 
family 
   and the House of Saud, but nobody seems too willing to discuss 
the 
   potential problems that may arise when King Faud dies.
 
Of course, US can always go back to
try Venezuela again. LOL
 
   We've been bullies in Latin America for a long time.  That 
region of 
   the world is particularly dear to me.
 
   
It is also an other small thing that make the Iraqi situation 
difficult.
With the first Gulf war, where the Americans wiped out the 
Iraqi army, 
the
US led embargo that killed at least 5,000 children a year and 
finally the
invasion of Iraq, it is very few families in Iraq who did not 
have a 
family
member or a friend killed by the Americans. After all, 80% of 
the Iraqi
population is women and children under 16 years of age. The 
Americans do
not have the finesse of Saddam, were the parts of population 
was played
against each other, a sort of politics. The Americans are more 
true to 
the
American democracy, they kill everybody, without any prejudice 
to race,
color or position. I think that it is the trigger happiness in 
Wild West
style.
 
   I woudn't say that.  Whoever puts the most ordinance on 
target 
   usually wins in a conventional war; a lesson the Russians 
learned from 
   Napolean and used with devastating effect on the Wermacht at the 
end of 
   WW II.  I've said before that the military is a blunt 
instrument, at 
   best.  Our armed services effectively destroyed the 
world's fourth 
   largest army because the weapons systems and

[biofuel] Biodiesel Class Tour... coming Re: biodiesel class


Hey Paul.

Central Indiana, a little north of Indy.  I grew up just a little 
ways across the IL border from you, in Homewood.  It's good to see 
fellow midwesterners here.  

Brian

--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, rico suavae [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hey Brian! Actually i'm in nw ind.in Whiting,right on the 
lake.Whereabouts are you?

  Paul
 
 Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If you do end up doing anything in the Chicago area, please let 
the 
 list know as well.  I'm in Indiana, and would definitely be 
 interested in coming to a workshop.
 
 Brian
 
 --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, rico suavae [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  I'd be intrested in anything that turns up around the Chi 
Town/tri 
 state area.Please contact me off list.
  Paul
  
  girl_mark_fire [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I've gotten quite a flurry of off-list interest from people in 
 other 
  areas of the country who want to host a workshop due to my 
 biodiesel 
  class 'tour' rumors. Here's some of my other plans:
  
  -Im going to Albuquerque and Tucson in May to tie up some loose 
 ends 
  from my past, and would love to stop and teach a workshop or two 
  elsewhere in the Southwest, like Flagstaff or Phoenix or Silver 
 City 
  or Southern Colorado perhaps (won't go further than Albuquerque 
 though 
  this time around...)
  
  
  -I'm flying (ie no equipment, and therefore no classes) to the 
NBB 
  meeting in Washington DC on July 12  and 13th, and a few of us 
are 
  talking about having a small-scale commercial producers' 
  dinner/get-together on one of the evenings during that meeting. 
 I'll 
  post details if this happens, and they will be discussed at www.
  groups.yahoo.com/group/local-b100-biz
  
  -Then I'm co-teaching at SEI (the incredible solar technology 
  education center in Colorado, www.solarenergy.org I believe) 
with 
  Martin of Boulder Biodiesel Coop in late July. This should be a 
 great 
  class- a five-day (?)biodiesel camp- and I'd also like to find a 
  student who is going there who would like to build equipment as 
 part 
  of the class.
  
  Then I'm leaving from there and coming to the Midwest to do a 
tour 
 in 
  August (the options so far for me are madison, chicago, st 
louis, 
  milwaukee possibly), and then I'd like to end up in North 
Carolina 
  (asheville, boone? and Triangle area) for a few weeks (early 
  september?) and therefore could swing up to Virginia someplace 
if 
  there was interest for a class up there.
  
  The same deal applies as the Tucson class announcement: I can do 
a 
  regular day-long (or longer minicourse) class in basics of 
 biodiesel 
  homebrewing, and if people think there is interest, I can do an 
  equipment building class. 
  
  I'm missing out on a job to do this in August (and my old truck 
is 
  wearing out!), so I'd need to charge something for these 
classes, 
  which is usually $20-$50 per student per day for the ones I do 
in 
  California. (I run the pre-registration/advertising, and bring 
  everything needed for the class, and I have to put in quite a 
few 
 full 
  days of prep for the equipment class especially). 
  
  I can also (to afford this tour) simply build reactors for 
 individuals 
  who don't want to coordinate a class but are are 'along the 
route'. 
  I've done a few of these already and I charge $200 labor, on top 
of 
  your equipment costs. I think I'm bringing a small MIG welder 
with 
 me 
  on the August tour so some custom tank work is possible. I'll 
 probably 
  be traveling with another biodieseler or two but it won't be 
like 
  inviting the whole Rainbow Family to your farm or anything scary.
  
  More on the Midwest stuff later as I make more firm plans.
  
  thank you everybody for the interest in this!
  mark
  
  
  
  --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Grahams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
   Gee if you want to do one of those workshops in VA, we would 
  volunteer!
  
   Caroline
  
  
  
  
  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
  
  Biofuels list archives:
  http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
  
  Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
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 Biofuels list archives:

Re: [biofuel] Big and Bad: How The SUV ran over automotive safety


Lillie,

I think you are talking about commuter traffic. Most commuters have the good 
sense to leave the behemouth at home while they drive something more compact to 
work. Besides the fuel issues it is much easier to park a smaller car in the 
city. I know at times people critize families for having a large number of 
cars. I personally don't think it is necessarily bad. They have a larger 
vehicle available for family outings and for carting around the children while 
using the smaller vehicle for short runs to the store, or to commute to work. 
Back in 1987 I bought a large crew cab F-350 with dual wheels. I paid extra for 
the Diesel engine to improve its fuel mileage and later added a Gear Vendors 
over-drive transmission which improved its fuel mileage by 5 mpg. I drove it 
when I needed a truck, my parents who lived close by drove it when they needed 
a truck, and now that my children are reaching driving age they drive it when 
they need a truck. But, my parents primary vehicle is a car, my wife drove a 
Volvo Diesel wagon, and I had a relatively small Jeep wrangler for work 
purposes. I had a job that required me to be able to get to work regardless of 
weather...therefore the Jeep. We have since moved from the US, but my eldest 
daughter has a VW TDI Jetta, and the truck is still going strong driven by my 
parents and my kids, and I drive it when I visit. To me, this makes common 
sense, to use the vehicle best suited for the need at hand, and for something 
like a truck, that one probably doesn't need every day, to share it between 
families. In my case, it is shared across three generations!

Derek


 I do see many more very large Toyota (Land Cruiser  Sequoia) and the new
 Nissan's Armada; boy does that name spell out the problem! Commercial
 traffic of all types and sizes is huge but the largest number are the
 smaller sedans. Many of what's being called SUV are the mini-Ute's and
 repackaged mini-vans.
 
 Lillie
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 11:50 AM
 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Big and Bad: How The SUV ran over automotive safety
 
 
  In addition to the other answers you've received, I will put in my two
  cents, which is that, in this rural part of Southern Arizona, I have
  looked around in a parking lot recently where it was hard to find too
  many cars.  This helps bring to our attention the connection between
  the pickup trucks (of which one sees many) and the SUVs (of which one
  sees many).  As to precisely which SUVs, that's hard to say, I don't
  pay overly much attention, but I think part of your experience may be
  based on what you've noticed and not what was there.  Maybe now that
  we've had this conversation, you'll notice more?  Another possibility
  I guess is a difference in vehicle-buying demographics between your
  area and our(s).
 
  I wonder, for those families with several vehicles (such as affluent
  parts of Baltimore or D.C.) if they put the larger SUVs away for a
  little, during a rise in fuel prices?
 
 
  On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 17:26:41 -0400, you wrote:
 
  I drive between Baltimore, MD and Washington, D.C. on 95 in some of the
 US's
  heaviest traffic every day to work. I see an Expedition maybe once a week
  and a Navigator maybe once a month. So I must ask, where are them all?
  
  Lillie
  
  - Original Message - 
  From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 3:17 PM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Big and Bad: How The SUV ran over automotive
 safety
  
  
   http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html
   
   AP
  
   Hi Alan
  
   Thanks, I enjoyed that, learnt a lot - and about more than just SUVs.
   Good read.
  
   Regards
  
   Keith
  
  
  
  
   Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
   http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
  
   Biofuels list archives:
   http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
  
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 To

[biofuel] Re: OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report


I had read a fantastic short story relating to just this issue about
20 years ago.  I thought it was by Steinbeck, but have been unable
to ever find it again.  It was about residents in a northern
European town occupied by the nazis, and their underground
resistance.  The point to the story was exactly that people will
continue to fight for ideology long after they are clearly defeated,
and that this is a fight that can't be lost in the long run.  I
wiswh that I could find that story again.

Brian

THE AGONY OF OCCUPATION
The Flies Have Conquered the Fly Paper

Paul Rockwell

By ten-forty-five, it was all over. The town was occupied, the 
defenders defeated, and the war finished. These are the opening 
lines of 'The Moon is Down', John Steinbeck's brilliant novel about 
the German occupation of Norway, a story about conquerors-decent, 
home-loving soldiers under the sway of nationalism-who occupy a 
foreign land. What happens when an invading army proclaims mission 
accomplished prematurely?

It is impossible to read Steinbeck's masterpiece without thinking 
about our own soldiers in Iraq and Fallujah, about their daily fear, 
the growing tendency for revenge, the agony of conquest.

'The Moon is Down' is not primarily about the Norwegian people, or 
even about the resistance. It's about the terror, the self-doubts, 
the slow transformation of arrogance to self-loathing, under which 
invaders live.

Steinbeck conveys the breakdown of morale, the shock of recognition, 
in a series of dialogues-outbursts and remarks of tense and frazzled 
soldiers.

They hate us, says one. They hate us so much. I don't like it here, sir.

A lieutenant exclaims: The enemy's everywhere. Every man, woman, 
even children. The faces look out of doorways. The white faces behind 
the curtains, listening. We have beaten them, we have won everywhere, 
and they wait and obey, and they wait.

Commanders try vainly to instill hope and confidence. When we have 
killed the leaders, says one, the rebellion will be broken. Do 
you really think so? responds a skeptical German.

When a lieutenant is upset by the hostility of the local population, 
his commander admonishes him: I will not lie to you, Lieutenant. 
They should have trained you for this, and not for flower-strewn 
streets. They should have built your soul with truth, not led you 
along with lies. But you took the job, Lieutenant. We can't take care 
of your soul.

The occupiers are not pacified. Captain, is this place conquered? 
Of course, the captain replies. But the listener cracks. Conquered 
and we're afraid, conquered and we're surrounded. The flies have 
conquered the fly paper!

'The Moon is Down' is not about the violence; it's about the 
psychology of occupation. Steinbeck focuses on the inability of 
occupying soldiers to cope with the ingratitude of a liberated 
people. Germans trusted their leaders and expected to be greeted with 
flowers, not contempt. The public hatred of the occupation, not 
sabotage alone, destroys German morale.

The cold hatred grew with the winter, the silent sullen hatred. Now 
it was that the conqueror was surrounded, the men of the battalion 
alone with silent enemies, and no man might relax guard even for a 
moment. If he did, he disappeared. If he drank, he disappeared. The 
men of the battalion could sing only together, could dance only 
together, and dancing gradually stopped and the singing expressed a 
longing for home. The talk was of friends and relatives who loved 
them and their longings were for warmth and love, because a man can 
be a soldier for only so many hours a day and only so many months a 
year, and then he wants to be a man again.

And the men thought always of home. The men of the battalion came to 
detest the place they had conquered and they were curt with the 
people and the people were curt with them, and gradually a little 
fear began to grow in the conquerors, a fear that it would never be 
over, that they could never relax and go home, a fear that one day 
they would crack and be hunted

Then the soldiers read the news from home and from other conquered 
countries, and the news was always good, and for a little while they 
believed it. And their sleep was restless and their days were 
nervous. Thus it came about that the conquerors grew afraid of the 
conquered and their nerves wore thin and they shot at shadows in the 
night. Fear crept in on the men, crept into the patrols and it made 
them cruel. Sometimes the sentries shot a man with a lantern and once 
a girl with a flashlight. And it did no good. Nothing was cured by 
the shooting.

They were under a double strain, for the conquered people watched 
them for mistakes and their own men watched them for weakness, so 
that their spirits were taut to the breaking point. The conquerors 
were under a terrible spiritual siege.

If you want to get a feel of what American troops go through in Iraq, 
read Steinbeck's The Moon is Down.

The flies have conquered

Re: [biofuel] OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report

2004-04-27 Thread Hakan Falk



Robert,

Although we seems to agree, I have some comments that I inserted below.


At 06:11 27/04/2004, you wrote:


Hakan Falk wrote:

 
  Robert,
 
  It was very interesting to read your thorough analysis, they are very
  good.
  It will be difficult to get the Iraqi oil on line, as long as the
  occupation continues and I think that Bush understand that and that is
  why
  he pushes the June deadline.


 He may be a bit simple minded, but I don't think the man is entirely
without wit.  There is a political element to this as well, given that
daily casualty reports are an irritant to the voting public.  Mr. Bush
faces another election in November, and I think he'd like to have power
handed over already so that he can distance himself from the daily
carnage, call the operation a success, wave the flag a bit more and stir
up additional political support.  (Not that he's going to need it with
the campaign funding he's already amassed!)

He is quite smart and in some ways he understand the energy situation well, 
it is only that he does not act in the interest of the American people.


  The problem is that it is an other naive
  miscalculation, to belive that they can have a strong puppet regime.

 Didn't the British have that experience in the 1930's?  I recall
reading that the RAF had to enforce an unpopular tax by strafing
unfriendly villages.  I hope we don't resort to such tactics this time
around.

We do not know what is going to happen, when things are going the wrong way.


  It is
  in a hurry, because without Iraq, it is no space for swing production and
  any pressures to keep oil prices low. The Saudis have always been in
  support of US, but I think that all the anti Saudi talk, is bringing this
  to an end and with serious consequences. They will not make the
  mistake to
  declare this openly, but the result will be the same and the anti Saudi
  talk will be even stronger. The only disaster that US is missing, is a
  very
  bad relationship with the Saudis (declared 25% of the worlds oil
  reserves,
  but probably largely over estimated).

 Saudi Arabia is a SERIOUS problem for us.  Alan's post that
originated this thread may illustrate the links between the Bush family
and the House of Saud, but nobody seems too willing to discuss the
potential problems that may arise when King Faud dies.

I think that the already existing recent will hit the fan.


  Of course, US can always go back to
  try Venezuela again. LOL

 We've been bullies in Latin America for a long time.  That region of
the world is particularly dear to me.

Yes, it is your home turf. -:)


 
  It is also an other small thing that make the Iraqi situation difficult.
  With the first Gulf war, where the Americans wiped out the Iraqi army,
  the
  US led embargo that killed at least 5,000 children a year and finally the
  invasion of Iraq, it is very few families in Iraq who did not have a
  family
  member or a friend killed by the Americans. After all, 80% of the Iraqi
  population is women and children under 16 years of age. The Americans do
  not have the finesse of Saddam, were the parts of population was played
  against each other, a sort of politics. The Americans are more true to
  the
  American democracy, they kill everybody, without any prejudice to race,
  color or position. I think that it is the trigger happiness in Wild West
  style.

 I woudn't say that.  Whoever puts the most ordinance on target
usually wins in a conventional war; a lesson the Russians learned from
Napolean and used with devastating effect on the Wermacht at the end of
WW II.  I've said before that the military is a blunt instrument, at
best.  Our armed services effectively destroyed the world's fourth
largest army because the weapons systems and tactics we've developed
are intended to deliver maximum firepower on a given target.
(Especially the Soviet equipment that largely made up Saddam's army.)
That works well in conventional warfare against readily identifiable
targets.  The asymmetrical tactics being used by the opposition in Iraq
cannot be effectively countered this way because the political costs for
slaying civilians en-masse is too high for us to pay.

I did not know that Napoleon and the Nazis won the war.  The Russians were 
terrorists with the definition of today, as most of the people that was 
occupied by the Germans in WWII. Come to think about it, the Germans 
probably called them terrorists also, Israel and US learned a lot. If you 
call them all terrorist = bad people, nobody care if you kill them.


  I have a couple of simple questions. Is it possible to win the
  peoples harts and mind, when you killed the same peoples grandfather,
  grandmother, father, mother, brother, sister or friends? Is it not a very
  naive proposition?

 I think it's unlikely that we will win much Iraqi admiration.  Most
of us over here will be shocked at this, but that's because so few of us
can see the conflict from the

Re: [biofuel] OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report


Robert,

I would like to pass on something I learned in the last war the US 
began to prevent communism from taking over and to establish 
Democracy in a third world nation (and we lost that one rather 
badly).  I served honorably in the Vietnam War and this was my 
combat lesson in a sentence.

TECHNOLOGY CANNOT BEAT IDEOLOGY!

Very succinct.

When people are willing to run into the face of guns armed only with 
a broken stick and a willingness to die - Technology shock and awe 
is reversed against those who only bring technology onto the 
battlefield.  I know.  Let us not learn that lesson again.

Amen... But I fear it should be Let us not fail to learn that lesson 
again. Bush et al have failed to learn that. They believe the US 
failed in Vietnam because of a lack of military resolve, with the 
major factor in that being the old saw that the war was lost in 
American living-rooms. Reagan believed the same thing. The US 
military (most people's military) was fascinated by the way the 
British were able to control press access during the Falklands war. 
As we can see, that lesson they did learn, for better or worse - 
worse, as it buttresses the failure to learn the first lesson. Sure 
helps to have such a knee-jerk press too.

Anyway...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1194671,00.html
The return of people's war
Iraq shows the west and its new liberal imperialists have forgotten 
the lessons of history
Monday April 19, 2004
The Guardian

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0421-10.htm
Vietnamese advice to U.S.: Leave Iraq
Former foe warns of quagmire
Knight Ridder Newspapers
Wednesday, April 21, 2004

I'm reluctant to fiddle with the admirable brevity of your four-word 
upsumming Art, but the word ideology can cause some confusion. 
Whatever their political ideology might be, occupied peoples fighting 
back share the common motive of rejecting occupation, and I think 
that's the ideology that counts here. Perhaps the American treatment 
of the British colonial superpower would illustrate that best.

Best

Keith



Art Krenzel
  - Original Message -
  From: robert luis rabello
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 9:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report




  Hakan Falk wrote:

  
   Robert,
  
   It was very interesting to read your thorough analysis, they are very
   good.
   It will be difficult to get the Iraqi oil on line, as long as the
   occupation continues and I think that Bush understand that and that is
   why
   he pushes the June deadline.


  He may be a bit simple minded, but I don't think the man is entirely
  without wit.  There is a political element to this as well, given that
  daily casualty reports are an irritant to the voting public.  Mr. Bush
  faces another election in November, and I think he'd like to have power
  handed over already so that he can distance himself from the daily
  carnage, call the operation a success, wave the flag a bit more and stir
  up additional political support.  (Not that he's going to need it with
  the campaign funding he's already amassed!)

   The problem is that it is an other naive
   miscalculation, to belive that they can have a strong puppet regime.

  Didn't the British have that experience in the 1930's?  I recall
  reading that the RAF had to enforce an unpopular tax by strafing
  unfriendly villages.  I hope we don't resort to such tactics this time
  around.

   It is
   in a hurry, because without Iraq, it is no space for swing production and
   any pressures to keep oil prices low. The Saudis have always been in
   support of US, but I think that all the anti Saudi talk, is bringing this
   to an end and with serious consequences. They will not make the
   mistake to
   declare this openly, but the result will be the same and the anti Saudi
   talk will be even stronger. The only disaster that US is missing, is a
   very
   bad relationship with the Saudis (declared 25% of the worlds oil
   reserves,
   but probably largely over estimated).

  Saudi Arabia is a SERIOUS problem for us.  Alan's post that
  originated this thread may illustrate the links between the Bush family
  and the House of Saud, but nobody seems too willing to discuss the
  potential problems that may arise when King Faud dies.

   Of course, US can always go back to
   try Venezuela again. LOL

  We've been bullies in Latin America for a long time.  That region of
  the world is particularly dear to me.

  
   It is also an other small thing that make the Iraqi situation difficult.
   With the first Gulf war, where the Americans wiped out the Iraqi army,
   the
   US led embargo that killed at least 5,000 children a year and finally the
   invasion of Iraq, it is very few families in Iraq who did not have a
   family
   member or a friend killed by the Americans. After all, 80% of the Iraqi
   population is women and children under 16 years of age. The

[biofuel] Kevin Shea

2004-04-27 Thread tazmaniantoo


Mr Shea,  I saw your message and I also was wondering about a 
seperate processor for incoming raw if you will, wvo.  I came up 
with a poly drum that I had with two 4500 watt water heater 
elements.  If you go with a thermostate, you won't get them hot 
enough, least mine didn't, so I went w/o it and set them on a 
reostate (a30amp one is strong enough) and I can get 225 degree plus 
out of it.  My barrel has sides strong enough to run the elements 
into and they tap threads themselves (metal vs plastic) however, I 
do not trust just that so I put a generous layer of metal set around 
the element and that will stict to anything and it holds very well.  
I have a 30gal fumeless processor built on the plans from the web 
site at journey to forever.  I made some additions to it, as I have 
it set up to draw wvo in, circutlate in the hot water heater, draw 
the meth in and then transfer to the was tank and finally pump it 
out all using the same pump.  I used pex tubing and valves on all 
the set up and it works great.  I do 25 gals at a time and thats 5 
gal of meth/lye mix at a time and get around 22 gal or so back.  
runs great in my johndeer 4020hope this helps a little, as the 
forum is getting more political then helpfull to people like 
us...jimbull




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Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report


Keith,

Your resourcefulness is fantastic!  To have found the perfect story to make my 
point puts you at the top of my list.

Thank you for the input from THE AGONY OF OCCUPATION!

Art Krenzel

  - Original Message - 
  From: Keith Addison 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 5:59 AM
  Subject: [biofuel] Re: OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report


  I had read a fantastic short story relating to just this issue about
  20 years ago.  I thought it was by Steinbeck, but have been unable
  to ever find it again.  It was about residents in a northern
  European town occupied by the nazis, and their underground
  resistance.  The point to the story was exactly that people will
  continue to fight for ideology long after they are clearly defeated,
  and that this is a fight that can't be lost in the long run.  I
  wiswh that I could find that story again.
  
  Brian

  THE AGONY OF OCCUPATION
  The Flies Have Conquered the Fly Paper

  Paul Rockwell

  By ten-forty-five, it was all over. The town was occupied, the 
  defenders defeated, and the war finished. These are the opening 
  lines of 'The Moon is Down', John Steinbeck's brilliant novel about 
  the German occupation of Norway, a story about conquerors-decent, 
  home-loving soldiers under the sway of nationalism-who occupy a 
  foreign land. What happens when an invading army proclaims mission 
  accomplished prematurely?

  It is impossible to read Steinbeck's masterpiece without thinking 
  about our own soldiers in Iraq and Fallujah, about their daily fear, 
  the growing tendency for revenge, the agony of conquest.

  'The Moon is Down' is not primarily about the Norwegian people, or 
  even about the resistance. It's about the terror, the self-doubts, 
  the slow transformation of arrogance to self-loathing, under which 
  invaders live.

  Steinbeck conveys the breakdown of morale, the shock of recognition, 
  in a series of dialogues-outbursts and remarks of tense and frazzled 
  soldiers.

  They hate us, says one. They hate us so much. I don't like it here, sir.

  A lieutenant exclaims: The enemy's everywhere. Every man, woman, 
  even children. The faces look out of doorways. The white faces behind 
  the curtains, listening. We have beaten them, we have won everywhere, 
  and they wait and obey, and they wait.

  Commanders try vainly to instill hope and confidence. When we have 
  killed the leaders, says one, the rebellion will be broken. Do 
  you really think so? responds a skeptical German.

  When a lieutenant is upset by the hostility of the local population, 
  his commander admonishes him: I will not lie to you, Lieutenant. 
  They should have trained you for this, and not for flower-strewn 
  streets. They should have built your soul with truth, not led you 
  along with lies. But you took the job, Lieutenant. We can't take care 
  of your soul.

  The occupiers are not pacified. Captain, is this place conquered? 
  Of course, the captain replies. But the listener cracks. Conquered 
  and we're afraid, conquered and we're surrounded. The flies have 
  conquered the fly paper!

  'The Moon is Down' is not about the violence; it's about the 
  psychology of occupation. Steinbeck focuses on the inability of 
  occupying soldiers to cope with the ingratitude of a liberated 
  people. Germans trusted their leaders and expected to be greeted with 
  flowers, not contempt. The public hatred of the occupation, not 
  sabotage alone, destroys German morale.

  The cold hatred grew with the winter, the silent sullen hatred. Now 
  it was that the conqueror was surrounded, the men of the battalion 
  alone with silent enemies, and no man might relax guard even for a 
  moment. If he did, he disappeared. If he drank, he disappeared. The 
  men of the battalion could sing only together, could dance only 
  together, and dancing gradually stopped and the singing expressed a 
  longing for home. The talk was of friends and relatives who loved 
  them and their longings were for warmth and love, because a man can 
  be a soldier for only so many hours a day and only so many months a 
  year, and then he wants to be a man again.

  And the men thought always of home. The men of the battalion came to 
  detest the place they had conquered and they were curt with the 
  people and the people were curt with them, and gradually a little 
  fear began to grow in the conquerors, a fear that it would never be 
  over, that they could never relax and go home, a fear that one day 
  they would crack and be hunted

  Then the soldiers read the news from home and from other conquered 
  countries, and the news was always good, and for a little while they 
  believed it. And their sleep was restless and their days were 
  nervous. Thus it came about that the conquerors grew afraid of the 
  conquered and their nerves wore thin and they shot at shadows in the 
  night. Fear crept in on the men, crept into the

Re: [biofuel] Ecuador

2004-04-27 Thread Dennis Ortiz


Marcelo:  I would be interested in your joint plant.  I am an investor who also 
deals with environmental projects. Do you have a business plan?
 
I also am the chair of a non-profit that creates access to technology for 
disadvantaged youth and adults.  We will be working with the Mexican government 
on a project.
 
Let me know on the ethanol project, plus are you also dealing with bio diesel 
in vehicles with the government?
 
Regards,
Dennis Ortiz

Marcelo Karolys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Our company is working jointly with the Government to develop a project of
process Ethanol from the sugar cane and / or from corn.

We want to know the possibility of a strategic alliance or a participation
in the project with your company, please communicate your interest

We are looking for a joint Venture, plant investment, support technology or
any advise to development this project.

The expecting project is for 2,000 barrels a day Ethanol production.

Any help will be appreciate.
Sincerely

Marcelo Karolys.
CIENE
Quito Ecuador
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[biofuel] Re: OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report


Thank you.  

One of my favorite things about the book was Steinbeck's 
descriptions of the town mayor, who was a simple man who seemed very 
complex, and town doctor, who was a complex man who seemed very 
simple.  I don't remember the exact quotes from the book any longer, 
but that's the gist of it.  I have to go find that book again.  

I've always seemed to have a different opinion than most on which of 
Steinbeck's works were his greatest.  I don't think that he ever 
wrote anything better than Winter of Our Discontent.  I also think 
that the literary community totally missed the point on that one, 
although I guess it is possible that it is me that misinterpreted 
the message.  I love the message in the way that I understand it, 
though.

Brian

--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I had read a fantastic short story relating to just this issue 
about
 20 years ago.  I thought it was by Steinbeck, but have been unable
 to ever find it again.  It was about residents in a northern
 European town occupied by the nazis, and their underground
 resistance.  The point to the story was exactly that people will
 continue to fight for ideology long after they are clearly 
defeated,
 and that this is a fight that can't be lost in the long run.  I
 wiswh that I could find that story again.
 
 Brian
 
 THE AGONY OF OCCUPATION
 The Flies Have Conquered the Fly Paper
 
 Paul Rockwell
 
 By ten-forty-five, it was all over. The town was occupied, the 
 defenders defeated, and the war finished. These are the opening 
 lines of 'The Moon is Down', John Steinbeck's brilliant novel 
about 
 the German occupation of Norway, a story about conquerors-decent, 
 home-loving soldiers under the sway of nationalism-who occupy a 
 foreign land. What happens when an invading army 
proclaims mission 
 accomplished prematurely?
 
 It is impossible to read Steinbeck's masterpiece without thinking 
 about our own soldiers in Iraq and Fallujah, about their daily 
fear, 
 the growing tendency for revenge, the agony of conquest.
 
 'The Moon is Down' is not primarily about the Norwegian people, or 
 even about the resistance. It's about the terror, the self-doubts, 
 the slow transformation of arrogance to self-loathing, under which 
 invaders live.
 
 Steinbeck conveys the breakdown of morale, the shock of 
recognition, 
 in a series of dialogues-outbursts and remarks of tense and 
frazzled 
 soldiers.
 
 They hate us, says one. They hate us so much. I don't like it 
here, sir.
 
 A lieutenant exclaims: The enemy's everywhere. Every man, woman, 
 even children. The faces look out of doorways. The white faces 
behind 
 the curtains, listening. We have beaten them, we have won 
everywhere, 
 and they wait and obey, and they wait.
 
 Commanders try vainly to instill hope and confidence. When we 
have 
 killed the leaders, says one, the rebellion will be broken. Do 
 you really think so? responds a skeptical German.
 
 When a lieutenant is upset by the hostility of the local 
population, 
 his commander admonishes him: I will not lie to you, Lieutenant. 
 They should have trained you for this, and not for flower-strewn 
 streets. They should have built your soul with truth, not led you 
 along with lies. But you took the job, Lieutenant. We can't take 
care 
 of your soul.
 
 The occupiers are not pacified. Captain, is this place 
conquered? 
 Of course, the captain replies. But the listener 
cracks. Conquered 
 and we're afraid, conquered and we're surrounded. The flies have 
 conquered the fly paper!
 
 'The Moon is Down' is not about the violence; it's about the 
 psychology of occupation. Steinbeck focuses on the inability of 
 occupying soldiers to cope with the ingratitude of a liberated 
 people. Germans trusted their leaders and expected to be greeted 
with 
 flowers, not contempt. The public hatred of the occupation, not 
 sabotage alone, destroys German morale.
 
 The cold hatred grew with the winter, the silent sullen hatred. 
Now 
 it was that the conqueror was surrounded, the men of the battalion 
 alone with silent enemies, and no man might relax guard even for a 
 moment. If he did, he disappeared. If he drank, he disappeared. 
The 
 men of the battalion could sing only together, could dance only 
 together, and dancing gradually stopped and the singing expressed 
a 
 longing for home. The talk was of friends and relatives who loved 
 them and their longings were for warmth and love, because a man 
can 
 be a soldier for only so many hours a day and only so many months 
a 
 year, and then he wants to be a man again.
 
 And the men thought always of home. The men of the battalion came 
to 
 detest the place they had conquered and they were curt with the 
 people and the people were curt with them, and gradually a little 
 fear began to grow in the conquerors, a fear that it would never 
be 
 over, that they could never relax and go home, a fear that one day 
 they would crack and be

[biofuel] Re: Big and Bad: How The SUV ran over automotive safety


Derek,

Thanks for sharing your view.  I couldn't agree more with the 
concept of having different vehicles for different purposes.  I 
don't have need for a truck often enough to own one, but once or 
twice a year have enough need to rent one.  That works for me.  I am 
finding that my TDI Beetle doesn't have quite the cargo space I want 
as I venture into the world of biodiesel, so plan to replace that in 
the not too distant future with a TDI Jetta wagon.  The Beetle will 
go to my daughter, whose needs it fits very well.

Brian

--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Lillie,
 
 I think you are talking about commuter traffic. Most commuters 
have the good sense to leave the behemouth at home while they drive 
something more compact to work. Besides the fuel issues it is much 
easier to park a smaller car in the city. I know at times people 
critize families for having a large number of cars. I personally 
don't think it is necessarily bad. They have a larger vehicle 
available for family outings and for carting around the children 
while using the smaller vehicle for short runs to the store, or to 
commute to work. Back in 1987 I bought a large crew cab F-350 with 
dual wheels. I paid extra for the Diesel engine to improve its fuel 
mileage and later added a Gear Vendors over-drive transmission which 
improved its fuel mileage by 5 mpg. I drove it when I needed a 
truck, my parents who lived close by drove it when they needed a 
truck, and now that my children are reaching driving age they drive 
it when they need a truck. But, my parents primary vehicle is a car, 
my wife drove a Volvo Diesel wagon, and I had a relatively small 
Jeep wrangler for work purposes. I had a job that required me to be 
able to get to work regardless of weather...therefore the Jeep. We 
have since moved from the US, but my eldest daughter has a VW TDI 
Jetta, and the truck is still going strong driven by my parents and 
my kids, and I drive it when I visit. To me, this makes common 
sense, to use the vehicle best suited for the need at hand, and for 
something like a truck, that one probably doesn't need every day, to 
share it between families. In my case, it is shared across three 
generations!
 
 Derek
 
 
  I do see many more very large Toyota (Land Cruiser  Sequoia) 
and the new
  Nissan's Armada; boy does that name spell out the problem! 
Commercial
  traffic of all types and sizes is huge but the largest number 
are the
  smaller sedans. Many of what's being called SUV are the mini-
Ute's and
  repackaged mini-vans.
  
  Lillie
  
  - Original Message - 
  From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 11:50 AM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Big and Bad: How The SUV ran over 
automotive safety
  
  
   In addition to the other answers you've received, I will put 
in my two
   cents, which is that, in this rural part of Southern Arizona, 
I have
   looked around in a parking lot recently where it was hard to 
find too
   many cars.  This helps bring to our attention the connection 
between
   the pickup trucks (of which one sees many) and the SUVs (of 
which one
   sees many).  As to precisely which SUVs, that's hard to say, I 
don't
   pay overly much attention, but I think part of your experience 
may be
   based on what you've noticed and not what was there.  Maybe 
now that
   we've had this conversation, you'll notice more?  Another 
possibility
   I guess is a difference in vehicle-buying demographics between 
your
   area and our(s).
  
   I wonder, for those families with several vehicles (such as 
affluent
   parts of Baltimore or D.C.) if they put the larger SUVs away 
for a
   little, during a rise in fuel prices?
  
  
   On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 17:26:41 -0400, you wrote:
  
   I drive between Baltimore, MD and Washington, D.C. on 95 in 
some of the
  US's
   heaviest traffic every day to work. I see an Expedition maybe 
once a week
   and a Navigator maybe once a month. So I must ask, where are 
them all?
   
   Lillie
   
   - Original Message - 
   From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 3:17 PM
   Subject: Re: [biofuel] Big and Bad: How The SUV ran over 
automotive
  safety
   
   
http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html

AP
   
Hi Alan
   
Thanks, I enjoyed that, learnt a lot - and about more than 
just SUVs.
Good read.
   
Regards
   
Keith
   
   
   
   
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Re: [biofuel] OT: auto safety tips

2004-04-27 Thread robert luis rabello




[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 And, BTW--was the similarity between the statement made by a person here
 earlier to the effect of : 'I despise Israel, but I worship with a number
 of Jews!' and a statement to the effect of 'I despise the gangsta
 rap/ebonics culture, but some my best friends are black!' lost on everyone
 else here ?? Racists come in many colors, you know !!

I think you are misunderstanding something here.  No one wrote: I 
despise Israel.  We have discussed the concept that individual citizens 
differ from a nation state, and that it is entirely reasonable to 
dialogue with individuals over the conduct of their respective nation 
states without laying the blame for irresponsible policies at the feet 
of those individuals.

If you had read my post properly, you would have understood that I 
am not anti Jewish, but that I have been accused of being anti Jewish 
because I disagree with the official policies of the nation of Israel; 
not because of any contrast with the culture, language and customs of 
Jewish people.  There is a qualitative difference to the statement I 
made that ventures nowhere near the realm of racism.

 Using a political
 thesis to support covert racism is as old as the human race.


So do we cheer when nation states suppress human rights?  I am not 
afraid of stating that the policies of Israel against the Palestinians 
are oppressive and more than I was afraid of stating that Pol Pot was an 
oppressive tyrant.  This has nothing to do with racism.  You are badly 
mistaken!

 Claiming to be
 sweet and innocent as a justification for such a position is, likely,
 equally old. Probably been with us as long as 'sex for money and/or 
 favors'
 has !!


You have a right to oppose abortion on equal grounds.  If you 
consider the practice barbaric, by all means, speak your mind!  However, 
don't be surprised if people disagree with you.  There are many 
intelligent people in this forum who do not view the issue from the same 
frame of reference that is characteristic of anti abortionists in North 
America.  The position you espoused happens to fit nicely into the us 
versus them paradigm that Keith outlined as common among Americans.  
Thus far, all you've managed to do is illustrate his point.

robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782





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Re: [biofuel] Cellulose-Alcohol story.


Keith,

My data was the 1998 report by Prof. David Pimentel which has been lamblasted 
by the renewable energy folks.  I think it is more of the correct story than 
saying that, using selected data, the ENERGY BALANCE tips in the favor of 
ethanol.  If the tractor is used in the production of the raw materials, its' 
cost must be included in the equation.  Life is not so simple as to say -Here 
is corn, now make ethanol and only count the conversion energy.  Life cycle 
cost analysis is being touted as a more correct view of cheap Chinese plastic 
parts inundating the American markets.  Whatever became of the metal parts you 
could repair instead of the plastic ones that break easily and must be thrown 
away.

I have included a piece from your web page, JOURNEY TO FOREVER, on the Pimentel 
report which I do not agree with.

Corn-Based Ethanol Does Indeed Achieve Energy Benefits -- Prof. David 
Pimentel's 1998 assessment of corn ethanol concluded that corn ethanol achieved 
a negative energy balance (which is usually defined as the energy in a product 
minus energy used to produce the product). Unfortunately, his assessment lacked 
timeliness in that it relied on data appropriate to conditions of the 1970s and 
early 1980s, but clearly not the 1990s... With up-to-date information on corn 
farming and ethanol production and treating ethanol co-products fairly, we have 
concluded that corn-based ethanol now has a positive energy balance of about 
20,000 Btu per gallon.

Art
  - Original Message - 
  From: Keith Addison 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 12:31 AM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Cellulose-Alcohol story.


  Hi Art

  The list is set to reject attachments, as well as html or coded 
  messages (ASCII - plain text only) as an essential anti-virus measure.

  If you send me the attachment direct I can put it where folk can see 
  it, either at Journey to Forever or in the list Files area (which is 
  not very useful since Yahoo improved it).

  Best

  Keith



  Todd,
  
  Take a look at the attachment.
  
  Thanks for not raining on my parade!  :-)
  
  Art
- Original Message -
From: Appal Energy
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story.
  
  
Hellow Art,
  
Rather than raining on anyone's parade, how about sharing the source of 
what
you read.
  
Ethanol is one dickens of a burgeoning industry. Either it has some
economical and/or environmental merit or it's the biggest scam since
organized religion.
  
Wouldn't hurt to let an audience decide for themselves.
  
Todd Swearingen
  
- Original Message -
From: Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story.
  
  
 RR,

 Sorry to rain on your parade but the recent numbers that I read from as
late as a year ago, when the costs of production include replacement cost 
of
farm machinery and consumables, the equation is a break even at best but
more likely still a loss.  I am willing to listen but show me the data and
the source.

 Also, what is the concentration of the 70 gallons of ethanol produced 
from
the cellulose?  That is, most likely, a theoretical number which is 
probably
based on dilute solutions.  One of the constraints on ethanol production is
that as the concentration of alcohol increases the fermentation slows down.
Advertisers of technology tout yields of dilute concentrations of ethanol -
producers (who have to distill the dilute water solutions) push delivered
cents per gallon costs of ethanol.  The difference is quite wide and 
affects
the bottom line harshly.

 What is the methanol from the products of hydrolysis statement?  Are 
you
speaking of converting the hydrolyzed biomass to methane biogas and
catalytically converting that to methanol?

 I am looking forward to the education.

 Art
   - Original Message -
   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 11:57 AM
   Subject: [biofuel] Re: Re: Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story.


   Art,

   You should consider not using old numbers on energy used in ethanol
   production.  It has been discussed several times in this forum how
current,
   and more accurate, numbers show that producing ethanol, at least from
corn,
   is energy positive, not energy negative.  Not to mention the newer
processes
   that include the corn stalk, which double the alcohol output.

   Not meant to start yet another dispute with regard to fuel from food, 
or
   sustainability needs of returning waste to the fields.

   From what I've read, one ton of waste paper (cellulose) can

Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: auto safety tips


On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 02:56:35 -, you wrote:

--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 To what you're written I would add some mention of public
 transportation, which in the end I'm guessing is dramatically safer
 per passenger-mile traveled, in addition perhaps to having some
 different uses of fuel per passeger-mile traveled, and perhaps
having
 some different 'valuation' of those passenger miles (in that a
person
 who has chosen to live in an urban environment may need to travel
 fewer miles per task), and I would add something somewhat related,
 which is some fundamental altering in our city and general planning.


Perhaps someday I'll live somewhere that public transportation exists
at all, let alone exists as a real alternative for driving.  Eight
towns in three states so far, and nowhere I could get a bus or a train
to work.  I do see horse and buggy rigs on the road around here,
though.  8^)

I know it works in some areas, but that doesn't help the rest of us.

Ed

Certainly a worthwhile point, in my view.  I don't think there's a
renewable energy technology in existence that applies to everyone all
the time in all ways.  That is part of why I constantly emphasize the
importance that any solutions we theorize or come up with will have to
be multiple and implemented on a variety of fronts.  There are no
busses in the community I'm presently in either.  The closest thing I
could think of might be the shuttles that seem to go from here to
the big town and airport 1 hour away, if you look for them.

In the case of busses and such, I do want to add that, in some ways,
they are important to biofuels in that here are potential
biofuel-users and overall-mileage-savers sometimes introduced in
municipalities before smaller vehicles are.  I've ridden on prototype
diesel-electric and gasoline-electric and methanol-electric hybrid
busses that cost a lot of money, but which might be afforded by a
municipality looking for new and innovative energy-saving and
air-saving features.  For some reason, I've seen fewer such cars that
seemed as likely to be brought to market as soon.


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Re: [biofuel] Kevin Shea


Jimbull,

Operating a poly drum filled with hot oil at 225 deg F sounds like an accident 
waiting to happen.

Just stop and think for awhile what your response will be when the side of the 
drum tears and dumps (I assume) 55 gallons of hot oil around your work area.  
Why not use a metal drum just for safety's sake?

Threading a metal heater element into the soft metal wall of the poly drum 
sounds like another accident waiting to happen.

I am sorry, but as a Professional Engineer I cannot be still over these simple 
but dangerous issues.

Please look a bit farther ahead and save yourself some time spent in bandages 
and the hospital burn unit (if available).  Don't be so focused on near term 
gains that you forget to look at long term losses.

Art Krenzel
  - Original Message - 
  From: tazmaniantoo 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 6:30 AM
  Subject: [biofuel] Kevin Shea


  Mr Shea,  I saw your message and I also was wondering about a 
  seperate processor for incoming raw if you will, wvo.  I came up 
  with a poly drum that I had with two 4500 watt water heater 
  elements.  If you go with a thermostate, you won't get them hot 
  enough, least mine didn't, so I went w/o it and set them on a 
  reostate (a30amp one is strong enough) and I can get 225 degree plus 
  out of it.  My barrel has sides strong enough to run the elements 
  into and they tap threads themselves (metal vs plastic) however, I 
  do not trust just that so I put a generous layer of metal set around 
  the element and that will stict to anything and it holds very well.  
  I have a 30gal fumeless processor built on the plans from the web 
  site at journey to forever.  I made some additions to it, as I have 
  it set up to draw wvo in, circutlate in the hot water heater, draw 
  the meth in and then transfer to the was tank and finally pump it 
  out all using the same pump.  I used pex tubing and valves on all 
  the set up and it works great.  I do 25 gals at a time and thats 5 
  gal of meth/lye mix at a time and get around 22 gal or so back.  
  runs great in my johndeer 4020hope this helps a little, as the 
  forum is getting more political then helpfull to people like 
  us...jimbull




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[biofuel] Re: OT: auto safety tips

2004-04-27 Thread Michael


In case you hadn't noticed, I have not commented on my thoughts on
abortion.  I agree that it is not a subject relevant to this board.
While I find political discussion related to energy concerns to be
quite appropriate to this board (just my opinion, others are, of
course, free to disagree), I can't find a connection between energy
issues and abortion or gun control.

Brian

Dear Brian,

Gun control and abortion have to do with population.  Population
has a lot to do, with whether we can solve our energy challenges!
Very Respectfully,

Michael
http://www.RecoveryByDiscovery.com

Have you ever noticed, that those that support the right to life, often
support the right to guns, and often support our right to kill', for
their prisoners and often do not support welfare. Then, those that support
the right to choice, often support gun control, and often support right
to life, for their prisoners, and do support welfare. What is going on,
at our deeper levels?  Notice that both sides, can support some form, of
right to life, and right to choice.  It just depends what the life is for,
and what the choice is for

For the rest of the information, see:
http://recoverybydiscovery.com/abortion.htm




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Re: [biofuel] Kevin Shea

2004-04-27 Thread Kevin Shea




 Mr Shea,  I saw your message and I also was wondering about a
 seperate processor for incoming raw if you will, wvo.  I came up
 with a poly drum that I had with two 4500 watt water heater
 elements.  If you go with a thermostate, you won't get them hot
 enough, least mine didn't, so I went w/o it and set them on a
 reostate (a30amp one is strong enough) and I can get 225 degree plus
 out of it.  My barrel has sides strong enough to run the elements
 into and

Thanks for the info.
Where do you get the two  4500 watt heaters?  Canabolized water heater?
I saw the horror when heater elements heat too much on poly drums or poly
conacle tanks.  Why not go all metal on the incoming raw WVO tank?   Is 225F
too hot for poly?  I'm pretty sure 140F, poly starts to melt away.  I
assume the 225F is in the water heater module temp?


 the set up and it works great.  I do 25 gals at a time and thats 5
 gal of meth/lye mix at a time and get around 22 gal or so back.

Sounds like 25 gal batches is the way to go for me.  I can just pour the 5
gal meth from the container, since I purchase meth in 5 gal pails-no need to
measure!




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Re: [biofuel] OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments


On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:00:13 -0700, you wrote:

Does anyone here have any ideas for investments in stocks (anywhere in
the world... does *not* have to be North America) that have a good
sustainable technology or energy technology or conservation angle?  

In the course of my research, ran across this interesting announcement
today from Detroit Edison:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040427/detu019_1.html

It says something about a Swiss company which manufactures the
systems, so I have to go and research them now.

It's a little gratifying to see DTE continue to come out with some of
these efforts.  I have a list of (for want of better words) utilities
or near-utilities with sufficient fractional effort toward Sustainable
Energy Technologies to warrant interest.  DTE has been there for
awhile, for me, but not in a huge way where I am that confident of
the matter.  So, with efforts like this, they provide some
justification to me on that score.

Presently the other two symbols I have in that sector, pending vetting
them further, are CV and PHY.AX and, sort of, ANA.MC.

I am cc'ing to Mark's local B100 group because maybe someone there can
make use of some of these ideas, as far as more technology options for
using biogas.

Press Release Source: DTE Energy Technologies 


DTE Energy Technologies Introduces the ENI 140 and ENI 265
Tuesday April 27, 11:01 am ET 


FARMINGTON HILLS, Mich., April 27 /PRNewswire/ -- DTE Energy Technologies, a 
non-regulated subsidiary of DTE Energy, today announced the commercial 
availability of the ENI 140 and ENI 265 Lean Burn Biogas systems.
ADVERTISEMENT
 
 
Both new additions to the energy|now(TM) branded line of distributed 
generation products operate on waste gas from digesters or from other sources 
such as flare gas from landfills or oil and gas wells.

The ENI 140 energy system is rated for continuous operation at 140 kilowatts 
(kW) and the ENI 265 energy system is rated at 265 kW. Both on-site energy 
products provide full combined heat and power capability with high electric 
and thermal efficiencies. These units fit a variety of applications including 
agriculture (dairies, swine and poultry farms), waste water treatment plants, 
landfills and food processing plants.

The Menag Group AG of Switzerland manufactures the lean burn biogas systems. 
DTE Energy Technologies has an exclusive worldwide joint distribution 
agreement with Menag, which currently has more than 1,200 energy systems in 
use that have supplied hundreds of thousands of hours of efficient operation 
to their customers in Europe. Both systems utilize robust Liebherr diesel 
derivative engines and can be remotely monitored via the Internet by DTE 
Energy Technologies' proprietary energy|now System Operations Center(TM).

These units bring us unique capabilities to serve the growing waste gas 
market, said Mark Fallek, chief marketing officer at DTE Energy Technologies.

DTE Energy Technologies is a leading supplier of integrated on-site energy 
systems and services, with sales and support offices located throughout the 
United States and in Canada and a growing network of distribution partners in 
Europe and Asia. DTE Energy Technologies has shipped more than 2,000 standby 
and continuous duty energy systems since its founding in 1998. For more 
information on DTE Energy Technologies, visit http://www.dtetech.com .

DTE Energy (NYSE: DTE - News) is a Detroit-based diversified energy company 
involved in the development and management of energy-related businesses and 
services nationwide. Its largest operating units are Detroit Edison, an 
electric utility serving 2.1 million customers in Southeastern Michigan, and 
MichCon, a natural gas utility serving 1.2 million customers in Michigan. 
Information about DTE Energy is available at http://www.dteenergy.com . 



 




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RE: More flies with honey than vinegar (Was: RE: [biofuel] using biodiesel in a diesel generator)

2004-04-27 Thread Bryan Brah


Ernest, it's pretty clear why Todd is missing the point.  It's amusing
and kinda' sad though.  I remember a rant directed at me because I said
that voting in federal elections was a waste of time and that change is
only possible through local action.  Now, he's at it again.  I guess his
solution is to single-handedly bully our elected officials into passing
pro-biofuels legislation.  Obviously the best course of action is to
offend the people whose opinion or behavior you seek to change; just
look at PETA's successful fur-spray-painting campaign.  

 

Oh and BTW, IMHO [net acronyms], you're right.  The fact that we
shuffled off the yoke of English imperialism means that we now have the
freedom to delete the letter u from behavior.  The language is ours
now.  

 

-BRAH

 

-Original Message-
From: ernest breakfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 2:07 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: More flies with honey than vinegar (Was: RE: [biofuel]
using biodiesel in a diesel generator)

 

todd, it's clear you're missing the point; what's not clear is why.


Appal Energy wrote:

 Last thing I need Ernest? It's some rocket scientist telling me what
I
 have to say in order to placate/please him or her,

i can't speak for Bryan, but i'm certainly not professing to be any
Rocket
Scientist.;-)   (let's hope you don't have an issue with emoticons,
too!
next thing we know, it's going to be contractions!)
Bryans message (as i took it) wasn't about the content or anyone
telling you
what you have to say; it was to point out that you're going to have a
better
chance of reaching people if you don't use such a caustic manner.



 much less the nettiquette
 police posting their message in acronym shorthand rather than the
Queen's
 english.

no police here, and i answer to no Queen...



 Don't care for the remarks? Don't read 'em.

a ridiculous stance, of course, since no-one could know that they
don't like
something without reading it,... and demonstrates the point that if
people don't
like the form you're presenting in, they're not going to get the benefit
of the
message you're trying to share if they ignore the rest of what you have
to share
based on not liking the form of an earlier message of yours.



 It gets extremely wasteful and repetetive fighting the same
disinformation
 battles over, and over, and over, and over, and over again, and again,
and
 again, and again, all the while listening to the same old false
 arguments by the same people who profess to be environmentally
inclined and
 supposedly serving the best interests of others.

unfortunately, telling one persons something doesn't always get the
message
across to them, (as is being evidenced here) and certainly doesn't
educate
everyone; there are new people that could coming into the discussion
that could
benefit from what's being shared if they didn't get turned off by having
the
information presented in a foul manner. nobody's asking you to shut up,
rather,
what's being suggested is in the hopes that you may be able to reach
more
people. of course, if you're only intent on spouting off about how
stupid
everyone else is, there's probably no hope.



 Horse manure. Try selfish, constipated, technocrats and ingrained
 bureaucrats more interested in creating roadblocks than in
implementing
 solutions.

turning off people who could potential become advocates because of
poor form
isn't going to help win any of those battles.


 Those who can't talk, and talk, and talk, and talk, and talk some
more.
 Those who can do.

that, of course, doesn't excuse poor form on the part of those who
profess
to 'do'.

here's hoping you have a better day!


cheers!
e

[much snippage]





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[biofuel] Re: Big and Bad: How The SUV ran over automotive safety

2004-04-27 Thread f150_351m


Someone suggested that people use different vehicles for different 
tasks.  Sure.  I don't drive the beater pickup truck every day but it 
sure is nice to have when I want to get mulch for the garden or need 
to get to work in 6 of snow.  Small bits fall off if I slam the door 
too hard, but it gets the job done.  8^)

I think it was the original article for this thread that talked about 
the safety aspects of SUVs.  You can't get around the additional 
weight or height of large vehicles, SUV or not.  That's physics.  The 
performance info got me looking.  Car and Driver magazine publishes 
tables of their road test results.  Yes, the sports cars do out 
accelerate/corner/brake the trucks.  I did find it interesting that 
the braking distances for things like the Ford Expedition and other 
similar sized vehicles were shorter than for many import sedans of 
small size, as well as very small cars like the Ford Focus.  I don't 
have the magazine in front of me now, but let me know if you want me 
to start typing in the data.

Mostly, the point of the article seemed to be that people do dumb 
things because they have a false sense of security.  That sounds like 
the fault of the driver and would happen in any vehicle.  A vehicle 
is a tool, and tools aren't good or bad - that's supplied by the 
people who use (misuse) them.  My favorite part was the danger of 
additional grip in bad weather.  By that logic we shouldn't allow 
snow tires!  

I still think much of the problem is that the driver license 
procedure is such a joke in the U.S.  When I took my test we never 
even drove on a road at all!

If you look at the smaller SUV type vehicles, the ones that don't 
share chassis with trucks, there is no matching vehicle in the car 
fleet that offers the features and price point.  Until that changes, 
people will drive SUVs.  I don't recall hearing anything like this 
when minivans were the hot vehicle in the U.S.  Other than ride 
height I don't see much difference between minivans and many of the 
new SUVs

Oh yeah, as to another point in the article, I don't have any 
cupholders in the truck or in the car I drive instead.  Should I feel 
afraid?  ;^)

Ed




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Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report

2004-04-27 Thread bob allen


The Moon is down, by John Steinbeck



Brian wrote:

 I had read a fantastic short story relating to just this issue about 
 20 years ago.  I thought it was by Steinbeck, but have been unable 
 to ever find it again.  It was about residents in a northern 
 European town occupied by the nazis, and their underground 
 resistance.  The point to the story was exactly that people will 
 continue to fight for ideology long after they are clearly defeated, 
 and that this is a fight that can't be lost in the long run.  I 
 wiswh that I could find that story again.
 
 Brian
 
 --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
Robert,

I would like to pass on something I learned in the last war the US 
 
 began to prevent communism from taking over and to establish 
 Democracy in a third world nation (and we lost that one rather 
 badly).  I served honorably in the Vietnam War and this was my 
 combat lesson in a sentence. 
 
TECHNOLOGY CANNOT BEAT IDEOLOGY! 

When people are willing to run into the face of guns armed only 
 
 with a broken stick and a willingness to die - Technology shock and 
 awe is reversed against those who only bring technology onto the 
 battlefield.  I know.  Let us not learn that lesson again.
 
Art Krenzel
  - Original Message - 
  From: robert luis rabello 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 9:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book 
 
 report
 



  Hakan Falk wrote:

  
   Robert,
  
   It was very interesting to read your thorough analysis, they 
 
 are very 
 
   good.
   It will be difficult to get the Iraqi oil on line, as long as 
 
 the
 
   occupation continues and I think that Bush understand that and 
 
 that is 
 
   why
   he pushes the June deadline.


  He may be a bit simple minded, but I don't think the man is 
 
 entirely 
 
  without wit.  There is a political element to this as well, 
 
 given that 
 
  daily casualty reports are an irritant to the voting public.  
 
 Mr. Bush 
 
  faces another election in November, and I think he'd like to 
 
 have power 
 
  handed over already so that he can distance himself from the 
 
 daily 
 
  carnage, call the operation a success, wave the flag a bit more 
 
 and stir 
 
  up additional political support.  (Not that he's going to need 
 
 it with 
 
  the campaign funding he's already amassed!)

   The problem is that it is an other naive
   miscalculation, to belive that they can have a strong puppet 
 
 regime.
 
  Didn't the British have that experience in the 1930's?  I 
 
 recall 
 
  reading that the RAF had to enforce an unpopular tax by strafing 
  unfriendly villages.  I hope we don't resort to such tactics 
 
 this time 
 
  around.

   It is
   in a hurry, because without Iraq, it is no space for swing 
 
 production and
 
   any pressures to keep oil prices low. The Saudis have always 
 
 been in
 
   support of US, but I think that all the anti Saudi talk, is 
 
 bringing this
 
   to an end and with serious consequences. They will not make 
 
 the 
 
   mistake to
   declare this openly, but the result will be the same and the 
 
 anti Saudi
 
   talk will be even stronger. The only disaster that US is 
 
 missing, is a 
 
   very
   bad relationship with the Saudis (declared 25% of the worlds 
 
 oil 
 
   reserves,
   but probably largely over estimated).

  Saudi Arabia is a SERIOUS problem for us.  Alan's post that 
  originated this thread may illustrate the links between the Bush 
 
 family 
 
  and the House of Saud, but nobody seems too willing to discuss 
 
 the 
 
  potential problems that may arise when King Faud dies.

   Of course, US can always go back to
   try Venezuela again. LOL

  We've been bullies in Latin America for a long time.  That 
 
 region of 
 
  the world is particularly dear to me.

  
   It is also an other small thing that make the Iraqi situation 
 
 difficult.
 
   With the first Gulf war, where the Americans wiped out the 
 
 Iraqi army, 
 
   the
   US led embargo that killed at least 5,000 children a year and 
 
 finally the
 
   invasion of Iraq, it is very few families in Iraq who did not 
 
 have a 
 
   family
   member or a friend killed by the Americans. After all, 80% of 
 
 the Iraqi
 
   population is women and children under 16 years of age. The 
 
 Americans do
 
   not have the finesse of Saddam, were the parts of population 
 
 was played
 
   against each other, a sort of politics. The Americans are more 
 
 true to 
 
   the
   American democracy, they kill everybody, without any prejudice 
 
 to race,
 
   color or position. I think that it is the trigger happiness in 
 
 Wild West
 
   style.

  I woudn't say that.  Whoever puts the most ordinance on 
 
 target 
 
  usually wins in a conventional war; a lesson the Russians 
 
 learned from 
 
  Napolean and used with devastating effect on the Wermacht at the 
 
 end of 
 
  WW II.  I've said before

Re: [biofuel] Re: Big and Bad: How The SUV ran over automotive safety


Hi Brian,

The TDIs in our experience are a pleasure to drive. We wanted the Golf as we 
felt it would be the most practical for a college bound youngster to carry 
stuff here and there. They didn't have one available and showed us the Jetta. 
We were impressed with the size of the truck, realized that it would do quite 
well, and we purchased. It has run extremely well...we have the manual 
transmission...including starting well through the winter. Also, from dad's 
perspective, I was pleased with the multiple safety features including 
something like nine airbags/curtains. I think if my daughter would have been 
left entirely on her own to choose between the three TDI models, she would have 
gone for the Beetle. I convinced her that she would need the cargo space of 
either the Golf or the Jetta. She has been very happy with the Jetta.

It is quite a change from the older 1980 Volvo Wagon with a VW manufactured 
Diesel that we drove to close to 200,000 miles before it died. It was sluggish, 
smoked tremendously, and was difficult to start in the winter, even with 
kerosene mixed in the fuel and with the block warmer plugged in. One was 
required to be a diesel lover to drive that car. To its credit, we got 28 mpg 
in constant city driving, and around 38 mpg on the highway, averaging generally 
around 34. This in a car that was built as heavy as a tank and when 
contemporary cars were often below 20 mpg. In contrast, this new TDI is a 
pleasure...I think...for anyone to drive. It doesn't even come with a block 
warmer! My daughter tells me she was able to start it all winter long without 
difficulty...better than many of her friends with gas burners.

Derek


 Derek,
 
 Thanks for sharing your view.  I couldn't agree more with the 
 concept of having different vehicles for different purposes.  I 
 don't have need for a truck often enough to own one, but once or 
 twice a year have enough need to rent one.  That works for me.  I am 
 finding that my TDI Beetle doesn't have quite the cargo space I want 
 as I venture into the world of biodiesel, so plan to replace that in 
 the not too distant future with a TDI Jetta wagon.  The Beetle will 
 go to my daughter, whose needs it fits very well.
 
 Brian
 


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Re: [biofuel] OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments


Hi,

How about EHN - Energia Hidroelectrica de Navarra

http://www.ehn.es/eng/index0.html

A leading group in renewables
-- Wind Power, Small Hydro, Biomass, Solar, and Bioclimatic Architecture

I have no idea how one would invest in the company, perhaps through the Spanish 
stock market.

Derek



 On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:00:13 -0700, you wrote:
 
 Does anyone here have any ideas for investments in stocks (anywhere in
 the world... does *not* have to be North America) that have a good
 sustainable technology or energy technology or conservation angle?  



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[biofuel] Preprocessing WVO via centrifuge?

2004-04-27 Thread Robert Del Bueno


In the ongoing quest of finding a better way to preprocess/filter WVO, I am 
wondering if anyone out there has done anything using centrifuges?

Gravity settling works very well, but of course, takes time.
A centrifuge seems like a great way to spin out not only particulate 
contaminates, but also water.

I know that folks like Alfa-Laval makes continuous oil centrifuges (even 
for food industry use), and water/oil separators, but these units are quite 
large and very expensive..way more than I need. Anyone ever messed with a 
cream separator? These are available small (even hand crank)..many with 
variable outputs.

Even fabricating a spinning drum (within a catch drum)..with adjustable 
outlets on the perimeter, center of bottom, and input via top (otherwise 
closed) seems like it could be worth looking into...

Seems like a moderate speed unit may be able to come close to doing away 
with filter elements.

Just curious if any one had explored this?
-Rob 




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[biofuel] Re: Big and Bad: How The SUV ran over automotive safety


I've had my TDI for two winters now, the first of which I didn't 
have a garage.  Never a problem starting with straight dino diesel.  
Indiana winters can get fairly chilly, with last winter being one of 
the worst recently for cold temperatures.  

I'm hoping that by the time winter comes again I'll be running 
straight biodiesel, if I can just get supply problems worked out.  I 
still haven't been able to convince anyone to sell me H2SO4, and the 
race fuel supplier who was supposed to deliver a drum of methanol 
last week didn't show up and is not returning my phone calls.  I'm 
almost starting to get a little paranoid about this.

Brian

--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi Brian,
 
 The TDIs in our experience are a pleasure to drive. We wanted the 
Golf as we felt it would be the most practical for a college bound 
youngster to carry stuff here and there. They didn't have one 
available and showed us the Jetta. We were impressed with the size 
of the truck, realized that it would do quite well, and we 
purchased. It has run extremely well...we have the manual 
transmission...including starting well through the winter. Also, 
from dad's perspective, I was pleased with the multiple safety 
features including something like nine airbags/curtains. I think if 
my daughter would have been left entirely on her own to choose 
between the three TDI models, she would have gone for the Beetle. I 
convinced her that she would need the cargo space of either the Golf 
or the Jetta. She has been very happy with the Jetta.
 
 It is quite a change from the older 1980 Volvo Wagon with a VW 
manufactured Diesel that we drove to close to 200,000 miles before 
it died. It was sluggish, smoked tremendously, and was difficult to 
start in the winter, even with kerosene mixed in the fuel and with 
the block warmer plugged in. One was required to be a diesel lover 
to drive that car. To its credit, we got 28 mpg in constant city 
driving, and around 38 mpg on the highway, averaging generally 
around 34. This in a car that was built as heavy as a tank and when 
contemporary cars were often below 20 mpg. In contrast, this new TDI 
is a pleasure...I think...for anyone to drive. It doesn't even come 
with a block warmer! My daughter tells me she was able to start it 
all winter long without difficulty...better than many of her friends 
with gas burners.
 
 Derek
 
 
  Derek,
  
  Thanks for sharing your view.  I couldn't agree more with the 
  concept of having different vehicles for different purposes.  I 
  don't have need for a truck often enough to own one, but once or 
  twice a year have enough need to rent one.  That works for me.  
I am 
  finding that my TDI Beetle doesn't have quite the cargo space I 
want 
  as I venture into the world of biodiesel, so plan to replace 
that in 
  the not too distant future with a TDI Jetta wagon.  The Beetle 
will 
  go to my daughter, whose needs it fits very well.
  
  Brian




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[biofuel] (unknown)

2004-04-27 Thread tazmaniantoo


Art,  I have used these poly tanks for about thew last ten years or 
better boiling water to cook oats for our race horses.  Now that was 
to the temp that the water is boiling.  Not one time has the barrel 
split, broke, spilt or what everthe threaded bulkhead fitting is 
covered in about a half inch of metal set, which if you have never 
used, you can actually mill it, drill it tap it, etc. in orther 
words, its very strong.  I do appreciate you concern on safety, 
however if you'll talk to the people the make the injected 
polyprolene (sp?) they will tell you the same. their tanks, barrels 
are rated to some quite high temps., none of which I even get close 
to..thanks again for your feed backJimbull




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Re: [biofuel] Kevin Shea

2004-04-27 Thread Appal Energy


MeOH boils at 148.1*F.

Last thing you're going to want is an accident similar to Yellow Biodiesel
due to alcohol fumes flashing.

The only time you'll need a temp higher than 120*-130* F is if you are
recovering the alcohol with an evaporator/condensor.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Kevin Shea


 Jimbull,

 Operating a poly drum filled with hot oil at 225 deg F sounds like an
accident waiting to happen.

 Just stop and think for awhile what your response will be when the side of
the drum tears and dumps (I assume) 55 gallons of hot oil around your work
area.  Why not use a metal drum just for safety's sake?

 Threading a metal heater element into the soft metal wall of the poly drum
sounds like another accident waiting to happen.

 I am sorry, but as a Professional Engineer I cannot be still over these
simple but dangerous issues.

 Please look a bit farther ahead and save yourself some time spent in
bandages and the hospital burn unit (if available).  Don't be so focused on
near term gains that you forget to look at long term losses.

 Art Krenzel
   - Original Message - 
   From: tazmaniantoo
   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 6:30 AM
   Subject: [biofuel] Kevin Shea


   Mr Shea,  I saw your message and I also was wondering about a
   seperate processor for incoming raw if you will, wvo.  I came up
   with a poly drum that I had with two 4500 watt water heater
   elements.  If you go with a thermostate, you won't get them hot
   enough, least mine didn't, so I went w/o it and set them on a
   reostate (a30amp one is strong enough) and I can get 225 degree plus
   out of it.  My barrel has sides strong enough to run the elements
   into and they tap threads themselves (metal vs plastic) however, I
   do not trust just that so I put a generous layer of metal set around
   the element and that will stict to anything and it holds very well.
   I have a 30gal fumeless processor built on the plans from the web
   site at journey to forever.  I made some additions to it, as I have
   it set up to draw wvo in, circutlate in the hot water heater, draw
   the meth in and then transfer to the was tank and finally pump it
   out all using the same pump.  I used pex tubing and valves on all
   the set up and it works great.  I do 25 gals at a time and thats 5
   gal of meth/lye mix at a time and get around 22 gal or so back.
   runs great in my johndeer 4020hope this helps a little, as the
   forum is getting more political then helpfull to people like
   us...jimbull




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[biofuel] inicio

2004-04-27 Thread MAURICIO SCHNEEBELI


Mi nombre es Mauricio Schneebeli estoy por graduarme
en la carrera de ingeniería mecánica y me interesa
estudiar el uso de la biomasa para generación de
energía, y la generación de biodisel.

Me interesa que me acesoren en la busqueda
bibliográfica en www.

Muchas gracias.
  Mauricio




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[biofuel] Re: Fortune 500 WVO ?? - Keith


Thanks for the encouragement. This is just your run-o-the-mill out
in the back in a 45 gal drum Chinese restaurant WVO.
Is using the 70% isopropyl OK?

I think so, I've never tried it, but I think it was Todd who told you 
it's okay and I'm sure Todd wouldn't say that unless he has tried it.

If you like, compare the results with your 99%+ when you get it. By 
the way, that's quite a lot of iso you're getting. It doesn't last 
forever, tends to go a little acid after awhile, so you should store 
it carefully (the usual cool, dark place I suppose, keep it airtight, 
decant into a 500cc bottle as needed and work from that). You can 
test it with a blank titration (no oil).

After a couple of hours (I didn't really observe it all that time
though) I have sepeartion in the product. One layer is VERY dark,
almost black and then the top layer is also dark but not as much as
the bottom layer. This is the first test batch I have done using WVO
and am just wondering if everything is OK, evn though it is so dark.

WVO usually comes out somewhat darker than SVO, especially the 
by-product layer. The WVO itself can be quite dark, even when the 
titration amount is low, or quite light when the titration amount 
isn't that low, lots of variables as to the colour of it. The 
pictures of the two bottles on our Biodiesel in winter page are from 
not so nice oil, that's about as dark as we get it.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_winter.html

Usually it's a bit lighter, like this:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#howmuchglyc

The wash will tell all. Give this a try:
Quality testing
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality

Thanks again.
PS: I build my cabinet this weekend, God willing, and then I can get
the water heater and go to it, yea! I have the plumbing, I have the
buckets I'll need and I have a line on a poly tank (white one) that
I will be using for a wash tank using Sean Park's standpipe method.
I have the pump from Nothern Tool, so all I need to do is get some
housing for it and I should be ready to go in another week or so.
One little step at a time and we eventually get there :o)!

Have a nice day.

And you too.

Best

Keith


--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Either I have hit the fortune 500 of WVO or something is amiss. I
am
  more inclined to think it is the later 'cause when it's too good
to
  be true it usually is :o).
  I went and absconded with a sample of some WVO from the Chinese
  restaurant we've been going to for some time and then titrated it
to
  determine the amount of kye to use, and it came back that I only
  needed to add 0.5gr to the 3.5 standard as it only used .5 ml to
  reach PH 8.5.
  I was told that using Isopropyl alcohol 70% was ok for titrating
so
  that is what I used, only now with this sort of result, when all
the
  reading I have done states 2-3ml (gr) is the norm, has me a bit
  confused.
  The oil also needed no dewatering as I had it up to 217F and not
so
  much as a hint of steam, bubbles or anything (the kitchen smelled
of
  Chinese food though) :)
  Anyway, I am now waiting for my methoxide to become a reality in
the
  Grolsch bottle before attempting to do the mix and see what
happens.
  I have also contacted a hospital supply house and ordered some
100%
  isopropyl alcohol (4.5L is the smallest they had, so I will have
  plenty of isopropyl for awhile.)
  
  Any comments 
 
  It's not that unusual, it's good, but not too good to be true. We
get
  quite a lot of oil like that, or even better than that sometimes,
  from a school lunch centre. We've also had such oil from
restaurants
  in the past (expensive restaurants!). Most of our oil isn't that
good
  though. Count yourself lucky!
 
  Best
 
  Keith



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Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report


Hi Art

Keith,

Your resourcefulness is fantastic!  To have found the perfect story 
to make my point puts you at the top of my list.

Thank you for the input from THE AGONY OF OCCUPATION!

:-) You're more'n welcome Art, and thankyou, but I can't take any 
credit for it. It's floating around at the moment because quite a few 
people seem to think it makes that point, as Brian did. I came across 
it a couple of day ago. It doesn't seem to be available online 
anywhere, unfortunately, though I'd've thought it might be out of 
copyright by now, or maybe not - depends when he died (and which 
country you're in - ridiculous, considering the global Internet). 
Hm... Oh. Seems the rule in the US is 70 years, so it wouldn't be out 
of copyright in the US (but it would be in Australia and here).

Best wishes

Keith



Art Krenzel

  - Original Message -
  From: Keith Addison
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 5:59 AM
  Subject: [biofuel] Re: OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report


  I had read a fantastic short story relating to just this issue about
  20 years ago.  I thought it was by Steinbeck, but have been unable
  to ever find it again.  It was about residents in a northern
  European town occupied by the nazis, and their underground
  resistance.  The point to the story was exactly that people will
  continue to fight for ideology long after they are clearly defeated,
  and that this is a fight that can't be lost in the long run.  I
  wiswh that I could find that story again.
  
  Brian

  THE AGONY OF OCCUPATION
  The Flies Have Conquered the Fly Paper

  Paul Rockwell

snip



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Re: [biofuel] Cellulose-Alcohol story.


Hi again Art

Keith,

My data was the 1998 report by Prof. David Pimentel which has been 
lamblasted by the renewable energy folks.  I think it is more of the 
correct story than saying that, using selected data, the ENERGY 
BALANCE tips in the favor of ethanol.  If the tractor is used in the 
production of the raw materials, its' cost must be included in the 
equation.  Life is not so simple as to say -Here is corn, now make 
ethanol and only count the conversion energy.  Life cycle cost 
analysis is being touted as a more correct view of cheap Chinese 
plastic parts inundating the American markets.  Whatever became of 
the metal parts you could repair instead of the plastic ones that 
break easily and must be thrown away.

Indeed life is not so simple, and the problem I have with such 
life-cycle studies is that typically they posit a typical farm, 
which probably doesn't exist, and then all else is related to this 
perhaps non-existent farm. You can find messages in the list archives 
from organic farmers in the US raising maize at equal or better 
yields than the so-called conventional chemicalised farmers next 
door with their much higher fossil-fuel inputs and higher costs too, 
and without the externalised costs associated with chemicalised 
farming practices, such as depleted soil (the farm's capital). I've 
proposed, and others have agreed, that it's quite possible to raise 
energy crops without the use of any dedicated land at all or 
dedicated anything else, as by-products of the ever-changing cropping 
patterns used on sustainable, integrated farms, and without any 
fossil-fuel inputs.

Pimentel, however, uses outdated data, and he knows it, but he keeps 
on doing it. I think there's a lot more wrong with Pimentel's studies.

That said, this whole debate is on a strange footing because of the 
heavy involvement in ethanol production in the US of the likes of 
ADM. A lot of enviros don't want to back ethanol for that reason - 
but backing ethanol is not necessarily backing ADM and the sort of 
corporatised farming it stands for. That's just throwing out the 
baby with the bathwater. There are other ways of doing it, many other 
ways, that present a quite different picture. Many of the environment 
groups, especially some of the big groups, have something of a 
knee-jerk response to this, a bit like their automatic diesel-bashing 
stance. It's just silly, IMNSHO.

I think it might be better if the whole of that page were brought 
into this. It's here:
http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html
Is ethanol energy-efficient?

The Food or Fuel? page is also worth a look:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html#grainexports

Best wishes

Keith


I have included a piece from your web page, JOURNEY TO FOREVER, on 
the Pimentel report which I do not agree with.

Corn-Based Ethanol Does Indeed Achieve Energy Benefits -- Prof. 
David Pimentel's 1998 assessment of corn ethanol concluded that corn 
ethanol achieved a negative energy balance (which is usually defined 
as the energy in a product minus energy used to produce the 
product). Unfortunately, his assessment lacked timeliness in that it 
relied on data appropriate to conditions of the 1970s and early 
1980s, but clearly not the 1990s... With up-to-date information on 
corn farming and ethanol production and treating ethanol co-products 
fairly, we have concluded that corn-based ethanol now has a positive 
energy balance of about 20,000 Btu per gallon.

Art
  - Original Message -
  From: Keith Addison
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 12:31 AM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Cellulose-Alcohol story.


  Hi Art

  The list is set to reject attachments, as well as html or coded
  messages (ASCII - plain text only) as an essential anti-virus measure.

  If you send me the attachment direct I can put it where folk can see
  it, either at Journey to Forever or in the list Files area (which is
  not very useful since Yahoo improved it).

  Best

  Keith



  Todd,
  
  Take a look at the attachment.
  
  Thanks for not raining on my parade!  :-)
  
  Art
- Original Message -
From: Appal Energy
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story.
  
  
Hellow Art,
  
Rather than raining on anyone's parade, how about sharing the 
source of what
you read.
  
Ethanol is one dickens of a burgeoning industry. Either it has some
economical and/or environmental merit or it's the biggest scam since
organized religion.
  
Wouldn't hurt to let an audience decide for themselves.
  
Todd Swearingen
  
- Original Message -
From: Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story.
  
  
 RR,

 Sorry to rain on your parade but the recent numbers that I read from

Re: [biofuel] Kevin Shea


Hello jimbull

Mr Shea,  I saw your message and I also was wondering about a
seperate processor for incoming raw if you will, wvo.  I came up
with a poly drum that I had with two 4500 watt water heater
elements.

A lot of people don't like the combination of poly drums and heating 
elements, and indeed there have been reports of fires with such 
processors. I'm not so sure about it, I think it can be done well and 
safely, but that would be for a processor, not a dewatering tank, 
especially not the way you're going about it. Two 4500 watt water 
heater elements! 225 degree plus. Wow.

Two things about that. Don't you find that those elements burn the 
oil unless you stir it? List member Matt Pozzi, also in Oz I think - 
oh, sorry, you're in Tazzie? :-) Anyway Matt gave us a number:

Make a rough estimate of the element's area of contact with the  oil 
(length*pi*diameter) and make sure the output will be around or less 
than 3W/sq cm, this will ensure no burning of the oil whilst heating. 
Elsewise you will need to stir while heating.

Our 1.5 watt element comes out with around 10W/sq cm, and does burn 
the oil unless we stir it. But that's just for processing, at max 130 
deg F, not boiling off water at 225. I definitely wouldn't attempt 
that in a poly drum.

By the way, you shouldn't need to heat it that much anyway to remove 
water content. Please see my current message to Kevin Shea, Re: 
[biofuel] Heating tank to boil water/fatty acids to WVO before 
processing 10 gal batches.

If you go with a thermostate, you won't get them hot
enough, least mine didn't, so I went w/o it and set them on a
reostate (a30amp one is strong enough) and I can get 225 degree plus
out of it.  My barrel has sides strong enough to run the elements
into and they tap threads themselves (metal vs plastic) however, I
do not trust just that so I put a generous layer of metal set around
the element and that will stict to anything and it holds very well.
I have a 30gal fumeless processor built on the plans from the web
site at journey to forever.  I made some additions to it, as I have
it set up to draw wvo in, circutlate in the hot water heater, draw
the meth in and then transfer to the was tank and finally pump it
out all using the same pump.  I used pex tubing and valves on all
the set up and it works great.  I do 25 gals at a time and thats 5
gal of meth/lye mix at a time and get around 22 gal or so back.
runs great in my johndeer 4020hope this helps a little, as the
forum is getting more political then helpfull to people like
us...jimbull

Well, the number political posts, whatever that means (matter of 
opinion), rises and falls, but the how-to stuff carries on anyway, 
and I don't understand why some people think the one interferes with 
the other. If anything they're complementary (as many think), or it 
just doesn't matter. The list does what its members tell it to. It's 
not a TV set - if people lurk then they should expect whatever comes 
their way, but anybody can take an active role and post messages on 
whatever interests them. As you've just done. No sense in complaining 
about other people's messages - if they don't interest you then don't 
read them.

Best wishes

Keith



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Re: [biofuel] Heating tank to boil water/fatty acids to WVO before processing 10 gal batches


Hello Kevin

Hello,

I've looked at all sorts of designs to base my processor on, but 
don't see too much emphasis on processor equipment designed to 
boiling WVO as the 1st step (to rid of water and to breakdown 
crystallized fatty acids) to prepare WVO to the next stage.  (This 
would be filtered, titration gathered and introduced to intake valve 
to the fumeless processor, or some other method, etc.)

I live in the Northeast USA and WVO crystallizes all the time. 
(Just last night, I left 3 carboys of oil on the porch and this 
morning all were 50% crystallized!  I have oil under the porch that 
has solidified, but on sunny day's, it's perfect for processing!

I would like to see a design able to heat a 15 gal drum. with 10 
gal.of WVO to 212F-260F to remove water vapor from oil and to 
breakdown fatty acids.  Some kind of kettle?

I'm not sure what you mean by breaking down fatty acids. Ideally 
they're triglycerides (three chains joined by a glycerine molecule), 
your biodiesel process will convert them to mono-alkyl esters (single 
chains with a methanol molecule). When triglycerides break down due 
to heat or oxidation one or more chains split off to become Free 
Fatty Acid molecules, leaving di- and mono-glycerides. More FFAs 
means more soap and lower yields, and more difficult processing.

This is one of several reasons given for NOT boiling the oil to 
remove the water content - there's a danger of the high temps 
creating more FFAs. Other reasons are that it might not work very 
well (some of the water in fat molecules isn't removed that way), and 
that it's a waste of energy.

Instead, try heating the oil to 130-140 deg F, keep it here for 15 
minutes, then let it settle overnight, draw the oil off from the top. 
If you find that's not satisfactory then try boiling the water off.

Before doing either of those, check if it's even necessary - WVO 
doesn't always contain water, or perhaps only minute quantities that 
might not matter. Put some in a saucepan and heat it on a stove while 
stirring and checking the temp. If it starts to snap-crackle-and-pop 
at around 130 deg F it will need dewatering, if not it probably 
won't. If it still doesn't crackle at 160F or so, it should be fine 
without a dewatering step.

One way for the boiling-off method not to be a waste of energy is to 
use the heat for processing - let it cool off and start the process 
when it's fallen to the right process temperature, 130F or whatever. 
Looked at that way, the heat-and-settle method might use as much 
energy as you'll have to re-heat it for processing the next day.

Anyway, as far as breaking down crystallised fatty acids is 
concerned, unless your WVO is for oil with a high melting point or 
contains a lot of tallow, it shouldn't be an issue. Just go ahead and 
process it, it will all have melted long before it reaches processing 
temperature. If you have to deal with very cold winters (sounds like 
you might have to) then you can do different things for summer and 
winter biodiesel. This is from our Biodiesel in winter page:

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_winter.html

Winterized biodiesel

Some people find their WVO biodiesel starts to gel at around 4-5 deg 
C (40 deg F). This is because any saturated fats/oils in the WVO will 
crystallise (solidify) at higher temperatures than unsaturated fats 
and oils and separate out, clogging the filter. That includes tallow, 
lard, palm oil, etc.

To make WVO biodiesel for winter, heat the oil first, then cool it to 
near 0 deg C (32 deg F); the saturated fats will crystallise out and 
sink to the bottom. Use the clear oil off the top to make winter 
biodiesel, keep the stuff at the bottom for summer. But even this 
winterized biodiesel still won't go much below -5 deg C (23 deg F) 
without gelling.

I'm hoping to construct this proposed 15 gal metal drum with electric heaters,

Why do you want to use electricity? You could make a Turk type 
burner and burn the glycerine cocktail by-product instead, much 
cheaper and doesn't waste energy, and no need to fear an open flame 
(any more than usual) as there's no methanol involved at this stage.

Best

Keith


but could really use some help with what heaters I need and possibly 
vendor info that could  heat batches?  I would like this to be 
electric and not heated by a flame source.

Any help.
Send pictures to [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Thank you,
Kevin Shea



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[biofuel] Re: OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report

2004-04-27 Thread pivincent


--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 I'm reluctant to fiddle with the admirable brevity of your four-
word 
 upsumming Art, but the word ideology can cause some confusion. 
 Whatever their political ideology might be, occupied peoples 
fighting 
 back share the common motive of rejecting occupation, and I think 
 that's the ideology that counts here. Perhaps the American 
treatment 
 of the British colonial superpower would illustrate that best.
 
 Best
 
 Keith
 

This analogy is not quite complete.  The US  Americans were helped 
along against one colonial superpower (UK) by another colonial 
superpower (France).  The Afghans also got superpower assistance 
against the USSR, as did the vietcong against the US.  I think a more 
apt analogy would refer to the irish republican and palestinian 
causes.  These are still both unraveling.

Pierre




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Re: [biofuel] (unknown)


Jim,

Polypropylene is rated to a working temperature of 180 degrees F.  
Polyethylene, which is used in most drums today, is rated at 125 degrees F.  It 
appears you may be operating just over the manufacturers working temperature 
and surviving.  I thought you had a polyethylene drum which is more common.

Art
  - Original Message - 
  From: tazmaniantoo 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 11:11 AM
  Subject: [biofuel] (unknown)


  Art,  I have used these poly tanks for about thew last ten years or 
  better boiling water to cook oats for our race horses.  Now that was 
  to the temp that the water is boiling.  Not one time has the barrel 
  split, broke, spilt or what everthe threaded bulkhead fitting is 
  covered in about a half inch of metal set, which if you have never 
  used, you can actually mill it, drill it tap it, etc. in orther 
  words, its very strong.  I do appreciate you concern on safety, 
  however if you'll talk to the people the make the injected 
  polyprolene (sp?) they will tell you the same. their tanks, barrels 
  are rated to some quite high temps., none of which I even get close 
  to..thanks again for your feed backJimbull




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Re: [biofuel] Re: Big and Bad: How The SUV ran over automotive safety


Hi,

Just to add to your paranoia, I just read an article about the recent terrorist 
attempt in Jordan that was foiled, and the intent was to use H2SO4 as either an 
explosive intensifier, or to produce a toxic cloud. I'm sure all suppliers and 
all purchasers will now be getting extra attention.

Derek





 I've had my TDI for two winters now, the first of which I didn't 
 have a garage.  Never a problem starting with straight dino diesel.  
 Indiana winters can get fairly chilly, with last winter being one of 
 the worst recently for cold temperatures.  
 
 I'm hoping that by the time winter comes again I'll be running 
 straight biodiesel, if I can just get supply problems worked out.  I 
 still haven't been able to convince anyone to sell me H2SO4, and the 
 race fuel supplier who was supposed to deliver a drum of methanol 
 last week didn't show up and is not returning my phone calls.  I'm 
 almost starting to get a little paranoid about this.
 
 Brian


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[biofuel] Re: 78 mercedes 300d

2004-04-27 Thread pivincent


Jesse, Ed, John  James,

Thanks for your advice on the mercedes.

Sometimes I can't get over all of the help available from this group, 
the free advice etc.  I am very impressed.

I hope I will be able to return at least some of it one day.

Pierre



--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Neoteric Biofuels Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 I'd suggest you get a turbodiesel if you are getting a 300D.
 And also, try to find one that has not been redone in any way. 
There  
 are plenty of very nice rust free Florida, California, and BC rust 
free  
 examples, it is worth the trip to get a good one.
 
 If you cannot afford the turbodiesel, the older 300D non-turbo is 
still  
 a great choice, and better than the newer 190D by far, but again 
be  
 sure to get one that's got a good history (one or two owners, no 
body  
 work, no redone interior etcif its been cared for at all, and 
is  
 not from the rust belt, it does not need to be redone. They were 
built  
 to last.
 
 Edward Beggs
 




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Re: [biofuel] Preprocessing WVO via centrifuge?

2004-04-27 Thread Neoteric Biofuels Inc



On Tuesday, April 27, 2004, at 10:46 AM, Robert Del Bueno wrote:

 In the ongoing quest of finding a better way to preprocess/filter WVO,  
 I am
 wondering if anyone out there has done anything using centrifuges?

 Gravity settling works very well, but of course, takes time.
 A centrifuge seems like a great way to spin out not only particulate
 contaminates, but also water.

It does not take all that long...3 days to 3 weeks is the best way to  
put it...3 days for a passable job, if you have good onboard fuel  
processing, 3 weeks preferably.


 I know that folks like Alfa-Laval makes continuous oil centrifuges  
 (even
 for food industry use), and water/oil separators, but these units are  
 quite
 large and very expensive..way more than I need. Anyone ever messed  
 with a
 cream separator? These are available small (even hand crank)..many with
 variable outputs.

Real ones are very expensive and fussy to maintain, I understand. Cream  
separators are too slow-spinning and will not work. We tried one. Big  
mess, big waste of time. Gravity is better.

 Even fabricating a spinning drum (within a catch drum)..with adjustable
 outlets on the perimeter, center of bottom, and input via top  
 (otherwise
 closed) seems like it could be worth looking into...

washing machine?

 Seems like a moderate speed unit may be able to come close to doing  
 away
 with filter elements.

I'd recommend you not even think about doing away with filter  
elements.

Edward Beggs
http://www.biofuels.ca



 Just curious if any one had explored this?
 -Rob




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Re: [biofuel] Re: oil from algae...

2004-04-27 Thread Pieter Koole


I am interested as well.

Met vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands.



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- Original Message -
From: wwschnabel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 4:42 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: oil from algae...


 I asked a while ago if anyone had any info on Oil from algae.

 What I would like to do is an experiment.

 Does anyone have any info on how exactly to extract the oil from algae?
Could I do it in a home lab?

 Thanks,

 Bill

 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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op virussen.
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waar op wordt gecontroleerd.






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[biofuel] Re: Preprocessing WVO via centrifuge?

2004-04-27 Thread pivincent


What volumes are we talking about?  You could try a hydrocyclone:
http://www.krebs.com/

An emulsion is injected tangentially near the fat end of a slender 
tapered tube.  The lighter fraction is separated from the heavier as 
the emulsion spins down the hydrocyclone's length.  The heavier 
fraction ends up exiting from the distal end (underflow), the 
lighter comes back up the tube and exits the proximal end 
(overflow), all in a matter of seconds.  It is a continuous 
separation device that functions quite well, especially when the 
density differences are significant.  It is a common oil/water 
separation device, popular in offshore platform applications.

Would it work for this application? Probably, as long as the emulsion 
remains fluid.

Pierre 


--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Robert Del Bueno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In the ongoing quest of finding a better way to preprocess/filter 
WVO, I am 
 wondering if anyone out there has done anything using centrifuges?
 
 Gravity settling works very well, but of course, takes time.
 A centrifuge seems like a great way to spin out not only 
particulate 
 contaminates, but also water.
 
 I know that folks like Alfa-Laval makes continuous oil centrifuges 
(even 
 for food industry use), and water/oil separators, but these units 
are quite 
 large and very expensive..way more than I need. Anyone ever messed 
with a 
 cream separator? These are available small (even hand crank)..many 
with 
 variable outputs.
 
 Even fabricating a spinning drum (within a catch drum)..with 
adjustable 
 outlets on the perimeter, center of bottom, and input via top 
(otherwise 
 closed) seems like it could be worth looking into...
 
 Seems like a moderate speed unit may be able to come close to doing 
away 
 with filter elements.
 
 Just curious if any one had explored this?
 -Rob




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[biofuel] Energy Policy: Supreme Court Hears Cheney Secrecy Case

My point of view on the immediate legal question is that I do not
think that private meetings should be made public. I don't see how
government researchers can carry out candid research if that is to
take place.

Meanwhile, three years later, what I think of as part of the real
issue is still not discussed. Long before the issue of forcing open
the Vice President's meeting records became a legal issue, it was
already common public knowledge that part of the energy industry was
being shut out from being able to participate in any real way in the
formulation of policy.

This was not in any way illegal, so far as I know. It may be an
affront and an insult to some voters who recognized the poor judgment
and maliciousness in this practice, but I think the Cheney team
probably thought that if they could get people sympathetic to them
(gosh, they're just trying to talk to the 'real' energy producers,
and they're just trying to do their jobs and not speak to the
'unrealistic' greens) then they could have it be forgotten in the
next election that their efforts were neither whole-hearted nor
entirely competent. If it was not illegal (in itself) then it was in
my view a sign of the malevolence and poor judgement that the Vice
President's Team manifested in looking at Energy Policy, a clear sign
of their lack of concern for working for the best possible future for
the country in the area of Energy Policy, a sign that they simply
didn't care to formulate the best possible policy and instead favored
a half-baked and, in some ways, anti-sustainable,
against-the-long-term-American-Future, policy.

Is this news to anyone? I suggest that since it's never stated, and
never discussed (so wrapped up are people in the legal scandal
aspects), then, yes, it is news.

To my knowledge, the Vice President's partially poor judgment and-or
partial maliciousness and-or partial negligence and-or partial
incompetence is not illegal. It is, however, (I thought to myself at
the time, an issue for those asked to review the job that he has done
and renew his contract to serve four more years on the Taxpayer
Dollar.

Sure, it's possible that illegal behaviour might be revealed if the
records are forced open. These issues are complex, and I don't wish
to sound naive.

But to me the larger issue is simply that we do not have any rational
discussion of Energy Policy in the United States, never mind the
search to label activity scandalously illegal. I think the Vice
President's Research was extremely scandalous, whether it is found
legal or illegal. It showed, in my view, such wanton disrespect for
those of us in the States that I wonder if he thought we'd forget
this, come election time?

The words solar energy and biofuels and wind energy and
sustainable energy technologies and alternative-fuel higher-mileage
vehicles and conservation in a capitalistic society seldom, if
ever, pass through the lips of the President, the Vice President or
anyone on their teams, much less are publicly debated or kicked-around
or discussed. Not that those words are the only relevant topics in
Energy Policy Discussion, but they are specific words which are
conspicuously avoided.

Now, why is that?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storycid=558ncid=718e=1u=/ap/20040427/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_cheney

By GINA HOLLAND, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The Constitution gives presidents and vice presidents
power to gather advice and make decisions without being forced to
reveal every detail of how those decisions are made, the Bush
administration's top Supreme Court lawyer argued Tuesday.

This is a case about the separation of powers, Solicitor General
Theodore Olson told the justices at the start of lively arguments
about privacy in White House policy-making.

The nearly three-year fight over access to records of Vice President
Dick Cheney (news - web sites)'s work on a national energy strategy
came to the high court after a federal judge ordered what Olson called
a broad, unconstitutional release of White House documents.

The White House is framing the case as a major test of executive
power, arguing that the forced disclosure of confidential records
intrudes on a president's power to get truthful advice. Environmental
and other interest groups claim the records will show whether the
energy industry got special access or favors.

Justices were told that former Enron chairman Ken Lay and others were
players, but until the government produces records, it won't be clear
if they actually drafted the government's policies.

The question is what happened at those meetings, said Alan Morrison,
the attorney for the Sierra Club (news - web sites).

The legal issues in the case have been almost overshadowed by a
political controversy involving Justice Antonin Scalia (news - web
sites). He has refused to step down despite a controversy over a
hunting trip he took with Cheney, an old friend, weeks after the high
court agreed to hear

RE: [biofuel] FW: Co-opet conference on energy issues in transport, Brussels, 25-26 May 2004

2004-04-27 Thread Darren Hill


Klaus Elsbett is speaking on the use of pure plant oils in vehicles at
the Sunday workshop (he shares an hour and a quarter slot with two
others)

Price 121 Euros for the Sunday workshop. Saturdays free.

Best
 
Darren

 -Original Message-
 From: Pelkmans Luc [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 26 April 2004 15:42
 Interesting event, especially for European members:
 
 CO-OPET Conference Energy Issues in Transport
 25-26 May 2004, Brussels
 
 The Organisations for the Promotion of Energy Technologies (OPET) in
 cooperation with ManagEnergy are organising a two-day conference on
 energy-related issues in transport, with a focus on technologies and
 measures for CO2 reduction and the introduction of biofuels. If you
are
 involved or interested in these subjects, we kindly invite you to
attend
 this conference.
 



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[biofuel] Re: OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report


--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  I'm reluctant to fiddle with the admirable brevity of your four-
word
  upsumming Art, but the word ideology can cause some confusion.
  Whatever their political ideology might be, occupied peoples
fighting
  back share the common motive of rejecting occupation, and I think
  that's the ideology that counts here. Perhaps the American
treatment
  of the British colonial superpower would illustrate that best.
 
  Best
 
  Keith
 

This analogy is not quite complete.  The US  Americans were helped
along against one colonial superpower (UK) by another colonial
superpower (France).  The Afghans also got superpower assistance
against the USSR, as did the vietcong against the US.  I think a more
apt analogy would refer to the irish republican and palestinian
causes.  These are still both unraveling.

Pierre

Of course you're quite right Pierre. I riffled through a bunch of 
other possibilities first and found them all fraught with 
complications, what a surprise, us yewmin beans bein' such simple 
uncomplicated critters and our squabbles too. Still, even with 
superpower assistance, I don't think the mujahedeen came close to 
matching Soviet firepower, nor could the Vietcong match that of the 
US (except sometimes). One could perhaps find an example of the 
opposite for each case that demonstrates Art's principle, but I 
believe it's true nonetheless. The Return of people's war piece 
makes some good points. You can see it unfolding in Iraq, as so many 
people warned would happen well before the invasion, along with 
everything else. Maybe the worst can still be averted, though I can't 
see how.

Best wishes

Keith



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[biofuel] High-Speed Chase


http://tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/10229

High-Speed Chase

Helen Gonzales is the policy director of USAction's Corporate Truth 
Squad. USAction is a progressive activist organization, dedicated to 
winning social, racial and economic justice for all. It represents 
three million members in 34 affiliates, with statewide organizations 
in 24 states.


Police officers don't drive their cars like the rest of us. Even the 
most casual TV watcher will be familiar with the car chases on 
California state highways filmed by helicopter, or the hapless 
drunken joyrides of petty criminals on the TV show Cops.

These pursuits are very often brought to a close by a police 
officer's white cruiser ramming the crook off the road. When they are 
on call, police ignore traffic laws and crash their cars if they have 
to-it's a part of their job. So it's fair to assume that their 
vehicles should be outfitted for demolition derby conditions without 
endangering the lives of the officers who drive them.

Unfortunately, one of the most popular cruiser models purchased by 
police departments in America-Ford's Crown Victoria Police 
Interceptor-is not equipped to withstand rear-end crashes even at 
regular speeds, costing the lives of at least 14 police officers 
since 1992, four of whom died in 2002 alone. These deaths occurred 
because of a poor design feature in the Crown Victoria-the car's fuel 
tank is located behind the rear axle within the car's crush zone. 
Rear-end collisions to the Crown Victoria have the potential of 
puncturing the fuel tank, causing dangerous leaks and explosions.

This is exactly what occurred to one police officer, Jason 
Schecterle, who was rear-ended by a taxicab in 2001. His cruiser 
ignited in flames almost immediately after the crash, and Schechterle 
suffered serious burns to his head and hands. His recovery has 
required amputation of two of his fingers, 30 surgical procedures and 
ongoing cosmetic surgery.

This problem extends beyond bad engineering-Ford has known about the 
problem in its cruisers since at least 1999, and has made efforts to 
conceal its guilt and liability instead of properly addressing the 
design flaws. When concerns about the design of the Crown Victoria 
began to come to light as a result of class action suits in 2003, 
Ford Motor Company made misleading claims about engineering 
improvements and tests it ran to make the Crown Victoria safer.

Ford claimed that retrofits that added fuel tank shielding and a 
Kevlar liner to the Crown Victoria cruiser trunk met a 75-mph 
rear-crash standard-even boasting in a marketing piece that police 
car purchasers should challenge other competing manufacturers to meet 
that standard. The sad truth is that Ford never even tested its Crown 
Victoria retrofit. The city of Dallas ran its own crash tests on the 
upgraded Crown Victoria and found that though fuel tank punctures 
were in fact less likely, the greater possibility was that rear-end 
crashes would cleave the tanks in half-a much more deadly scenario.

Officers like Schechterle and the families of officers who were 
killed in rear-end Crown Victoria crashes have not seen inspired and 
responsible action taken by the Ford Motor Company. It has taken 
efforts by investigative news reporters and police organizations, as 
well as class-action lawsuits against Ford filed by crash victims and 
their families, to retrieve internal documents and receive honest 
testimony about Ford's corporate misdeeds. Meanwhile, Ford has 
adopted the dark art of evading corporate guilt. In 2003, Ford tried 
to deter thousands of potential officers from joining a class-action 
suit in Illinois by hiring a litigation communications firm to write 
a brochure that claimed the crash tests conducted by the city of 
Dallas were rigged. Ford then had the brochures mailed to law 
enforcement agencies that purchased the Crown Victoria in the 
state-ignoring the presiding judge's orders not to do so.

Despite its efforts to the contrary, Ford is being forced to assume 
responsibility for covering up this deadly design flaw.

The dozens of class-action suits filed against Ford have helped to 
reveal that the Crown Victoria Police Interceptor model has a rate of 
fatal collision fuel-fed fires far higher than other police cruiser 
models. Ford's internal studies showed that its Crown Victoria caused 
140 percent more fuel-fire deaths than the competitive GM police 
model, and was 200 percent deadlier than Ford's own family sedan, the 
Escort.

Without the class-action suits that brought the Crown Victoria's 
flaws to light through sworn testimony, Ford would not have been 
forced to redesign the car, or to assume culpability for the deaths 
of more than a dozen police officers and the hundreds of injuries. 
It's one successful case in the ongoing battle to uncover the legions 
of examples of corporate cover-up and malfeasance.

Imagine that. Until it was forced with court action to admit and 
address

Re: [biofuel] Energy Policy: Supreme Court Hears Cheney Secrecy Case


Hi MM

Very much agree with you, but it would be nice to see the guy getting 
a legal roasting for it, along with his pals - he's probably not 
going to get an electoral one, sad to say. Not very likely either, I 
know.

Some of the ins and outs are discussed here:

http://tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/10308
Wasting Energy
Attorney Andrew Cohen analyzes legal issues for CBS News and CBSNews.com.

Bes

Keith


My point of view on the immediate legal question is that I do not
think that private meetings should be made public.  I don't see how
government researchers can carry out candid research if that is to
take place.

Meanwhile, three years later, what I think of as part of the real
issue is still not discussed.  Long before the issue of forcing open
the Vice President's meeting records became a legal issue, it was
already common public knowledge that part of the energy industry was
being shut out from being able to participate in any real way in the
formulation of policy.

This was not in any way illegal, so far as I know.  It may be an
affront and an insult to some voters who recognized the poor judgment
and maliciousness in this practice, but I think the Cheney team
probably thought that if they could get people sympathetic to them
(gosh, they're just trying to talk to the 'real' energy producers,
and they're just trying to do their jobs and not speak to the
'unrealistic' greens) then they could have it be forgotten in the
next election that their efforts were neither whole-hearted nor
entirely competent.  If it was not illegal (in itself) then it was in
my view a sign of the malevolence and poor judgement that the Vice
President's Team manifested in looking at Energy Policy, a clear sign
of their lack of concern for working for the best possible future for
the country in the area of Energy Policy, a sign that they simply
didn't care to formulate the best possible policy and instead favored
a half-baked and, in some ways, anti-sustainable,
against-the-long-term-American-Future, policy.

Is this news to anyone?  I suggest that since it's never stated, and
never discussed (so wrapped up are people in the legal scandal
aspects), then, yes, it is news.

To my knowledge, the Vice President's partially poor judgment and-or
partial maliciousness and-or partial negligence and-or partial
incompetence is not illegal.  It is, however, (I thought to myself at
the time, an issue for those asked to review the job that he has done
and renew his contract to serve four more years on the Taxpayer
Dollar.

Sure, it's possible that illegal behaviour might be revealed if the
records are forced open.  These issues are complex, and I don't wish
to sound naive.

But to me the larger issue is simply that we do not have any rational
discussion of Energy Policy in the United States, never mind the
search to label activity scandalously illegal.  I think the Vice
President's Research was extremely scandalous, whether it is found
legal or illegal.  It showed, in my view, such wanton disrespect for
those of us in the States that I wonder if he thought we'd forget
this, come election time?

The words solar energy and biofuels and wind energy and
sustainable energy technologies and alternative-fuel higher-mileage
vehicles and conservation in a capitalistic society seldom, if
ever, pass through the lips of the President, the Vice President or
anyone on their teams, much less are publicly debated or kicked-around
or discussed.  Not that those words are the only relevant topics in
Energy Policy Discussion, but they are specific words which are
conspicuously avoided.

Now, why is that?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storycid=558ncid=718e=1u=/a 
p/20040427/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_cheney

By GINA HOLLAND, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The Constitution gives presidents and vice presidents
power to gather advice and make decisions without being forced to
reveal every detail of how those decisions are made, the Bush
administration's top Supreme Court lawyer argued Tuesday.


This is a case about the separation of powers, Solicitor General
Theodore Olson told the justices at the start of lively arguments
about privacy in White House policy-making.


The nearly three-year fight over access to records of Vice President
Dick Cheney (news - web sites)'s work on a national energy strategy
came to the high court after a federal judge ordered what Olson called
a broad, unconstitutional release of White House documents.


The White House is framing the case as a major test of executive
power, arguing that the forced disclosure of confidential records
intrudes on a president's power to get truthful advice. Environmental
and other interest groups claim the records will show whether the
energy industry got special access or favors.


Justices were told that former Enron chairman Ken Lay and others were
players, but until the government produces records, it won't be clear
if they actually drafted the government's policies.


The question

Re: [biofuel] inicio


Mi nombre es Mauricio Schneebeli estoy por graduarme
en la carrera de ingeniería mecánica y me interesa
estudiar el uso de la biomasa para generación de
energía, y la generación de biodisel.

Me interesa que me acesoren en la busqueda
bibliográfica en www.

Muchas gracias.
  Mauricio

More or less, according to Google:

My name is Mauricio Schneebeli I am about to to graduate in the race 
as ingeniería mec to meánica and interests to me to study the use of 
the biomass for generación of energía, and generación of biodisel. 
It interests to me that they acesoren in the search bibliogr to me 
in www.

Mauricio, there are quite a lot of Spanish-speaking members here and 
I hope some of them might help you.

There is also a Spanish-language section at our website, Journey to 
Forever, on biofuels and biodiesel. It's here:

Spanish-language sister-site for DIY biodieselers
EN ESPAOL, sitio hermano para biodieseleros DIY
http://journeytoforever.org/energiaweb/

And the Biogasoil Spanish biodiesel mailing list, run by Pedro 
Macanas -- Unase a la lista de correo sobre biogasoil:
http://es.egroups.com/group/biogasoil

The two links at the bottom of the message should be useful to you:

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/

I hope this helps

Best wishes

Keith Addison


Mauricio, hay absolutamente muchos de miembros de habla hispana aqu 
y espero a algunos de ellos ayuda de la fuerza usted.  Hay tambin 
una seccin de la Espaol-lengua en nuestro website, viaje por 
siempre, en biofuels y biodiesel.  Est aqu:  hermana-sitio de la 
Espaol-lengua para EN ESPAOL de los biodieselers de DIY, los 
biodieseleros DIY http://journeytoforever.org/energiaweb/

de prrafos del hermano del sitio/y la lista espaola el enviar del 
biodiesel de Biogasoil, funcionamiento de Pedro Macanas -- Unase un 
biogasoil del sobre de lista de correo del la: 
http://es.egroups.com/group/biogasoil

los dos acoplamientos en el fondo del mensaje debe serle til: 
Biofuel en Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

archivos de la lista de Biofuels
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/

la esperanza de I esto ayuda a recuerdos

Keith Addison



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Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
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Biofuels list archives:
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[biofuel] Trying to contact Dennis Ortiz

2004-04-27 Thread Jose Luis Hernandez Quisbert


To Dennis Ortiz:

I am a Bolivian University Mechanical Engineering teacher with many 
projects for the rural and low income urban people involving alternative 
energies. I would like to get your e mail to share my projects and the 
possibility to do something together.

Jose Luis Hernndez
Universidad Mayor de San Andres
La Paz Bolivia
[EMAIL PROTECTED]





Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
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Re: [biofuel] Energy Policy: Supreme Court Hears Cheney Secrecy Case