[Biofuel] wash problem
methanol,(18.9 litres for 80 litres of oil) and mixed for one hour and 15 minutes. Could the problem be not enough lye? Brent ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Which Oil is Best
Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] stirred the pot thusly: This is just way to much to contemplate, first thing in the morning. I don't drink, but, this might drive me to it. Greg H. Um, yes, well, sorry. Try coffee (best to stir it anticlockwise). I think I was just cavilling at the prospect of having to debunk John Nicholson (biopower), not exactly difficult, but I'll probably break out in carbuncles or something. Won't someone else do it? Please? Best Keith Yes, we wouldn't want to use a cup of tea. Goodness know what sort of random events that might generate. Improbable I suppose. Well, have to go, sounds like Vogons at the door. Darryl (apologies to Douglas Adams) - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 05:29 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Which Oil is Best Dear pros, Latitudinal or longitudinally? Latitudinal, but much more important IMNSHO is that the traditional anticlockwisist approach be adopted. We do not want any of this revisionist hegemonistic running-dog pinko neocon fundamentalist pro-clockwisist nonsense here, thankyou. And I really hope we're not going to see any more crass attempts by Northist Confusionism elements to propose that from West to East is anticlockwise. A few nay-sayers and denialists aside (and we all know who pays their bills), all serious scientists concur that the North is not on top, the South is. That's why Australia is commonly referred to as Up-over, and so on. And therefore, East to West is anticlockwise, and let's have no further argument about it, we of the Global South aren't dumb you know, we're alive to these sinister conspiracies, and *we* know that the centrifugal momentum of human-caused mass-pro-clockwisism is causing the world to spin faster, swelling the equatorial bulge, with really gross effects on the climate we all have to share, especially us. Longitudinality is at least spin-neutral, but it doesn't help either, longitudinal circumnavigators are just fence-sitters. Best wishes Keith Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - From: pros [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Which Oil is Best Hello Chris and Frans and other listeners , My question is a little bit different ; If you would make a trip around the world and seasons in each country ; what are the chances for the whole year available ' fresh ' oils which countries should you go and which time of the year ( I assume always 'fresh' crop ) .Eg if you start in Europe - in June for rapeseed oil where would you go and when for palm oil or is there a chance to get one kind of oil in different continents all time from fresh crop ? Julian , Poland Hello Frans, Palm oil is great for biodiesel. I guess it depends which 'we' you are talking about. The 'we' that are in Brazil and other southern areas use palm oil; the 'we' that lives in US use soy oil because that is what we grow here. This time the 'we' is ADM I am afraid. In Europe, the 'we' have access to rapeseed, because that is what is grown there. The use of pronouns is so interesting in an international list such as this one. As always, the answer is on a table on the JTF website. Hope that helps. The esteemed Frans van Dortmont wrote: On the discussion which oil is best; Why do we use so much soy oil rape seed oil instead of palmoil. Everywhere is see that palmoil is best efficient way to produce oil. Is it not good for making biodiesel? Chris K Cayce, SC ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com/ It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] wash problem
Sounds like water in the oil before you start. Make sure your oil has *NO* water in it. There are two ways listed in JTF. unless you like cottage cheese... fred On 4/25/05, Brent S [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am still getting cottage cheese durring the wash cycle. I have enough methanol,(18.9 litres for 80 litres of oil) and mixed for one hour and 15 minutes. Could the problem be not enough lye? Brent ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] wash problem
Possibly. Take a liter sample of what you believe to be finished fuel and retreat it to see if any more glycerol drops out. Strong probability that your catalyst is being consumed before the reaction completes, leaving you with a sufficient volume of mono- and di-glyceride emulsifiers. Todd Swearingen Brent S wrote: I am still getting cottage cheese durring the wash cycle. I have enough methanol,(18.9 litres for 80 litres of oil) and mixed for one hour and 15 minutes. Could the problem be not enough lye? Brent ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place
OK But don't shoot the messanger. I was paraphrasing some of the info from the site. I didn't design the device and have no association with that company. I posted the item because I thought that it was interesting. I have some reservations about their system as well. regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 15:16:12 Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam?ÊÊYahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ---Original Message--- ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place
I would think that you could power the electrolizer with PV or a wind generator regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 21:01:21 If your electrolyzer is 50% efficient then half the power is lost. I guess they are thinking they can make hydrogen in the daytime and burn it at night. A battery and a heatpump would be enormously more efficient. Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:OK, I did some poking around and had a little trouble finding a Watt-hr/BTU value for hydrogen production using electrolysis. Does anyone have a link with some stats? Mike Kirk McLoren wrote: Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam?ÊÊYahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ---Original Message--- ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] wash problem
on 4/25/05 5:38 PM, Appal Energy at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could the problem be not enough lye? Possibly. Indeed. And the way to find that out is to titrate your oil. How did it come out? If you had a lot of FFA, it would've consumed your lye and you wouldn't have had enough to run the reaction. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Hot Oil
latest batch of biodiesel came out really Orange. And it had a very intense burning smell (not burning -- just the liquid). I realized the cafeteria must've done a Thai pepper dish -- and it was still in the OIL! Love it:-) -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Jelled ethanol with charcoal and cellulose
Greeting Larry Dear Larry Think of using the fuel gel made using cellulose powder or wood charcoal carbon powder for making fuel from alcohol . Several important information are available from the old list archives of this group. It is not very clear whether you want use the fuel for distillation of ethanol .Still for what purpose ? Charcoal powder, that's interesting. You can also use wallpaper glue, I guess that's cellulose. This is from a previous message on ethanol gel: Mix 11 grams of Calcium Acetate with 30 mg of water. Make sure all the Calcium Acetate is dissolved, this might take an hour of occasional stirring. Measure 10 mg of the solution. Slowly add 40 mg of ethanol. As you add the ethanol, the mixture should gel instantly. Pour off any remaining ethanol (a very small amount). Because the mixture gels instantly, you do not have to combine the two until you need to use it for cooking. I made some Calcium Acetate by neutralizing acetic acid with lime. Works well, gels immediately, burns very nicely, but it's not very stable, best to make it when you need it. This way, since it's bioduels in the Third World rural development setting that we're most interested in, everything required is probably available locally, or could be. Ethanol can be brewed on-site (and probably is already), even if it's not absolute; acetic acid can be brewed the same way, by aerating the mash, and agricultural lime is fairly ubiquitous. Here's another one, with proprietory ingredients: Ethanol Solid Fuel Gel / Fire Starter Carbopol EZ-3 Polymer á Primary thickener for alcohol systems - neutralization with a specific amine is critical á Provides good clarity and overall aesthetics á Low skinning cracking á Approximate burn time of 2.5 hours per 200 grams á Self-wetting polymer for improved handling and easier full-scale processing Formulation Percent Function Trade Name Supplier Carbopol EZ-3 - Weight Percent 0.55 - Thickener - Noveon, Inc. DI Water - Weight Percent 23.90 - Diluent Ethanol - Weight Percent 75.00 - Fuel Triisopropanolamine - Weight Percent 0.55 - Neutralizing agent - Dow Chemical 100.00 Procedure 1. Add the Carbopol EZ-3 polymer to the deionized water with no agitation. The polymer will wet out in a few minutes. 2. With moderate agitation, add the ethanol. 3. Heat the triisopropanolamine until melted and add with good agitation. The product will thicken during this step. Increased agitation will be required. Regards Keith See here for information for the use of jelled fuel alcohol: Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ We have not done so far any experimental work in this field but surely wish to start soon . Some 100 000 Brazilian Real economy is mad possible to be the gain due to the operation of the one small aeroplane/ year that have been adopted to use ethanolinsecticide applications of big Brazilian soy agribusiness the gain compared to the conventional fuel. Thus big one become very big and small farmer very poor in the globalised economy . But , We are interested to use the ethanol fuel to remote area for cooking using gel and charcoal powder , thus making possible fuel for poor too and this is very costlier too due to transportation in remote area. In Africa , the jelled alcohol fuel has been found to be very successful one as advocated by UN . Any useful information and collaborations in this project are well come as we lost the cashew apple of 500 000 hectare in our small state alone in the north east of Brazil all wasted due to the local market, man power cost and fuel problems as these are all like Forest making food and fuel , but all lost , yet we have poor with out food This natural vitamin products with 100 porcent waste need to very urgently be solved by global and local collaborative work which is our major research work which has Brazilian research council aid .But the problem is very complex to solve . We are open for any new product , process , investment regard to this natural products In this respect we need more novel methods , experience in other country too . Instead of food we too think of jelled ethanol fuel too for sustainability for the local sustainable developments as biomass sustainability project Thanking you Truly Sd Pannir selvam Brasil On 4/25/05, Larry Pickens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would like to run a still using alcohol as the fuel source. Where can I find information on making large alcohol burners. I have found information on small pocket stoves but nothing big. Seems we should be able to run on what we make rather than buy fuel to make fuel. ___ Biofuel mailing
Re: [Biofuel] Disolved air stones
I was washing my last batch and my air stones disolved. What could cause this problem? Brent The biodiesel (or maybe it's the remaining excess methanol) eats the bonding agent that holds them together. We use ceramic airstones, they've lasted more than two years now, not expensive. Or do it this way: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/38149/ ... which we also prefer to bubble-washing. But not until you've solved the cottage cheese problem. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place
And if you dumped the power into a resistor (heater) you would get twice as much heat as the fireplace. Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would think that you could power the electrolizer with PV or a wind generator regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 21:01:21 If your electrolyzer is 50% efficient then half the power is lost. I guess they are thinking they can make hydrogen in the daytime and burn it at night. A battery and a heatpump would be enormously more efficient. Michael Redler wrote:OK, I did some poking around and had a little trouble finding a Watt-hr/BTU value for hydrogen production using electrolysis. Does anyone have a link with some stats? Mike Kirk McLoren wrote: Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ---Original Message--- ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Which Oil is Best
This is just way to much to contemplate, first thing in the morning. I don't drink, but, this might drive me to it. Greg H. Um, yes, well, sorry. Try coffee (best to stir it anticlockwise). I think I was just cavilling at the prospect of having to debunk John Nicholson (biopower), not exactly difficult, but I'll probably break out in carbuncles or something. Won't someone else do it? Please? Best Keith Yes, we wouldn't want to use a cup of tea. Goodness know what sort of random events that might generate. Improbable I suppose. That's why they used to use the entrails of a goat. They didn't even know which way was up in those days, they thought the thing was flat, which indeed it probably was, but they weren't dumb either, even they knew that reading tea leaves was fraught with peril because unless you were there at the time there was no way to tell whether the stirrer was a revisionist hegemonistic running-dog pinko neocon fundamentalist pro-clockwisist or not. Well, have to go, sounds like Vogons at the door. Darryl (apologies to Douglas Adams) He was a nice man, he wouldn't have minded. It's a hopeful sign when they bother to come to the door first, isn't it? Good luck! No takers on John Nicholson? Come on guys, this is your last chance to win this coveted prize... Going, going... (I'm out of here!) Keith - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 05:29 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Which Oil is Best Dear pros, Latitudinal or longitudinally? Latitudinal, but much more important IMNSHO is that the traditional anticlockwisist approach be adopted. We do not want any of this revisionist hegemonistic running-dog pinko neocon fundamentalist pro-clockwisist nonsense here, thankyou. And I really hope we're not going to see any more crass attempts by Northist Confusionism elements to propose that from West to East is anticlockwise. A few nay-sayers and denialists aside (and we all know who pays their bills), all serious scientists concur that the North is not on top, the South is. That's why Australia is commonly referred to as Up-over, and so on. And therefore, East to West is anticlockwise, and let's have no further argument about it, we of the Global South aren't dumb you know, we're alive to these sinister conspiracies, and *we* know that the centrifugal momentum of human-caused mass-pro-clockwisism is causing the world to spin faster, swelling the equatorial bulge, with really gross effects on the climate we all have to share, especially us. Longitudinality is at least spin-neutral, but it doesn't help either, longitudinal circumnavigators are just fence-sitters. Best wishes Keith Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - From: pros [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Which Oil is Best Hello Chris and Frans and other listeners , My question is a little bit different ; If you would make a trip around the world and seasons in each country ; what are the chances for the whole year available ' fresh ' oils which countries should you go and which time of the year ( I assume always 'fresh' crop ) .Eg if you start in Europe - in June for rapeseed oil where would you go and when for palm oil or is there a chance to get one kind of oil in different continents all time from fresh crop ? Julian , Poland Hello Frans, Palm oil is great for biodiesel. I guess it depends which 'we' you are talking about. The 'we' that are in Brazil and other southern areas use palm oil; the 'we' that lives in US use soy oil because that is what we grow here. This time the 'we' is ADM I am afraid. In Europe, the 'we' have access to rapeseed, because that is what is grown there. The use of pronouns is so interesting in an international list such as this one. As always, the answer is on a table on the JTF website. Hope that helps. The esteemed Frans van Dortmont wrote: On the discussion which oil is best; Why do we use so much soy oil rape seed oil instead of palmoil. Everywhere is see that palmoil is best efficient way to produce oil. Is it not good for making biodiesel? Chris K Cayce, SC ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Which Oil is Best
Chris a crit : Do you suppose that UK developed a taste for palm oil because it was readily available from 'the empire'? maybe, but then It also should be available for France. In fact here (France, EU) you can find palm oil bars in every supermarket. (the most famous brand is Vegetaline for frying purpose (i.e. french fries). Palm oil is also used as a substitute to butter. Tastyless and imported but healthier. Nope. See, for instance: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/medtest/medtest_iftl.html Ill Fares the Land by Dr. Walter Yellowlees http://www.price-pottenger.org/Articles/Case_for_butter.html The Case for Butter by Trauger Groh, Farmer and Lecturer Butter and Honey shall He eat that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good -- Isaiah 7:15 And much besides. This new taste may be came from the last world wars when butter was rare and replaced by margarine, fat matter from vegetal oil. Now the main reason to use it are diet (cholesterol free, overheated oil non cancerogenic) Nope again, and not cancer, heart disease, allegedly: http://www.nexusmagazine.com/margarine.html THE MARGARINE HOAX --Margarine, Fatty Acids and Your Health-- To maintain good health it is important that we have the correct intake of omega fatty acids in our diets. Hydrogenated fats like margarine are non-foods with toxic effects and should be avoided at any cost. Nexus Magazine, Volume 4, #2 (February-March 1997). by Dane A. Roubos, D.C. ©1995-97 http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm The Cholesterol Myths - some astonishing facts by Uffe Ravnskov, MD, PhD http://www.westonaprice.org/moderndiseases/benefits_cholest.html The Benefits of High Cholesterol By Uffe Ravnskov, MD, PhD People with high cholesterol live the longest. This statement seems so incredible that it takes a long time to clear one«s brainwashed mind to fully understand its importance. Also and much besides. Margarine is much more likely to cause heart disease and circulation problems than butter is. Industrialised butter is not the same as real butter (grass-fed, organically raised cattle), but it's still better than margarine. and savings (cheaper than butter). Other food habits remains from wars (napoleonic: i.e.sugar from beetroot ; WWI II : chicoree in place of coffee...) But in southern France olive or rapeseed oil are still spread used probably because of the hotest climate that already limited the use of butter in mediterannean countries. I guess that the global warming will soon do the same effects in the northern part of France... and allow to produce palm oil in the south ;-) And don't forget the bananas! LOL! Regards Keith frantz Bonjour Frantz ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Fwd: The Overstory #154--Agroforester's Library (update)
From: The Overstory [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: The Overstory #154--Agroforester's Library (update) THE OVERSTORY #154--Agroforester's Library (revised and updated) by Permanent Agriculture Resources :: SCHEDULE NOTICE: The next edition of The Overstory is expected to be published June 13, 2005. ADDRESS CHANGES: Please send any changes in your e-mail address to [EMAIL PROTECTED] :: THE OVERSTORY #154--Agroforester's Library (revised and updated) by Permanent Agriculture Resources Contents: : AGROFORESTER'S LIBRARY : RELATED EDITIONS OF THE OVERSTORY : PUBLISHER NOTES : SUBSCRIPTIONS AGROFORESTER'S LIBRARY Agroforester's Library is a periodic feature of The Overstory. Beginning in 1998 we have asked agroforestry specialists from around the world to recommend their favorite resources for agroforestry. Agroforestry references, species references, book sources, organizations, periodicals, and web sites are covered. This year we have added and updated numerous listings. Due to the length of the material, it is available for viewing at http://www.agroforestry.net/aflibr.html rather than being sent in the body of this email. We welcome your comments and input. with best regards, Craig Elevitch Editor The Overstory E-journal [EMAIL PROTECTED] :: RELATED EDITIONS OF THE OVERSTORY Previous releases of the Agroforester's Library are replaced by the current version at: http://agroforestry.net/aflibr.html. :: PUBLISHER NOTES Publisher: Permanent Agriculture Resources Editor: Craig R. Elevitch Distributor: The Overstory is distributed by Agroforestry Net, Inc., a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization based in Hawaii. Address: P.O. Box 428, Holualoa, Hawaii 96725 USA Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Web site: http://www.overstory.org Past editions of The Overstory: http://www.overstory.org This publication is Copyright 2005 Permanent Agriculture Resources. All Rights Reserved Worldwide. For Conditions of Use please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] or write to Agroforestry Net, Inc. at the address above. This journal is designed to provide agricultural information, but is sent with the understanding that the editors and publishers are not engaged in rendering consultation. If expert assistance is required, the services of a professional should be sought. :: SUBSCRIPTIONS To SUBSCRIBE please send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the subject subscribe and in the body of the message: 1) your name 2) e-mail address 3) organization, brief project description, or your interest in agroforestry 4) your location (city, state, country) Any other information about yourself that you would like to include is welcome, as it helps us tailor the journal to your needs. To UNSUBSCRIBE please send us an e-mail with your name and the e-mail address of your subscription. **Your information is secure -- We will never sell, give or distribute your address or subscription information to any third party without your prior consent.** ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Re: was- hydrogen fire place
---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello, Well I didn't design the darn thing. I posted it because I thought it was an interesting idea. I always have respect for hydrogen and have been constructing many electrolisers over the years. There are a couple of other companies developing hydrogen bar b ques and hydrogen lawn mowers so this article was along the same line. You may want to read the hydrogen fireplace update that I posted, as it decribes a number of very interesting patents using brown's gas for combustion heating. The devise is not as far fetched or rediculous as it may seem at first glance. Read the other patents info on this type of tech regards Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place Sent: 26 Apr 2005 04:32:16 And if you dumped the power into a resistor (heater) you would get twice as much heat as the fireplace. Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would think that you could power the electrolizer with PV or a wind generator regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 21:01:21 If your electrolyzer is 50% efficient then half the power is lost. I guess they are thinking they can make hydrogen in the daytime and burn it at night. A battery and a heatpump would be enormously more efficient. Michael Redler wrote:OK, I did some poking around and had a little trouble finding a Watt-hr/BTU value for hydrogen production using electrolysis. Does anyone have a link with some stats? Mike Kirk McLoren wrote: Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam?ÊÊYahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable):
Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place
recover the lost heat, but still there have to be better ways to provide space heat. It would be just as efficient and a lot cheaper to run a bare nichrome wire for heat. Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: I would think that you could power the electrolizer with PV or a wind generator regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 21:01:21 If your electrolyzer is 50% efficient then half the power is lost. I guess they are thinking they can make hydrogen in the daytime and burn it at night. A battery and a heatpump would be enormously more efficient. Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:OK, I did some poking around and had a little trouble finding a Watt-hr/BTU value for hydrogen production using electrolysis. Does anyone have a link with some stats? Mike Kirk McLoren wrote: Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ---Original Message--- ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves Richard Feynman --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Jelled ethanol with charcoal and cellulose:solid biofuel
Greeting Keith Even though we spend several hours of search in Internet about gelled fuel, we are not able to find any information about the use of the cellulose , but which have been reported to be very successful. Thank you Keith bringing here real practical experience ,how to make yourself work , which is the real objective of this group. sharing knowledge , practical one on biofuel applications and social neworking based on this knoweldge. Solid biofuel is poor rural man need , even India lack research in this field, eventhough India has the simple and solid biofuel social technology making use of cowdung , any dried leaves , solar drying , amk possible removing animal waste from big cites by self employed poor social enterprenuers, reusing the wastes solids, instead of incinerating and land fill dumping , selling this one as good poor man fuel of the low cost .But this simple social self employed best technology is excluded by the conventional technology of urbanization using gaseous biofuel is pushed nowadays. Jelled biofuel with clean burning using novel products and process can be as importantproject as that of BioD that appear to have impact as social technology as the cow dung based solid fuel technology. Thanking once again on behalf all the developing countries , students and teacher can do better social work with this new products and good hope to have the great green future for the needful based on the biomass fuel. sd Pannirselvam On 4/25/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings Pannir Greeting Larry Dear Larry Think of using the fuel gel made using cellulose powder or wood charcoal carbon powder for making fuel from alcohol . Several important information are available from the old list archives of this group. It is not very clear whether you want use the fuel for distillation of ethanol .Still for what purpose ? Charcoal powder, that's interesting. You can also use wallpaper glue, I guess that's cellulose. This is from a previous message on ethanol gel: Mix 11 grams of Calcium Acetate with 30 mg of water. Make sure all the Calcium Acetate is dissolved, this might take an hour of occasional stirring. Measure 10 mg of the solution. Slowly add 40 mg of ethanol. As you add the ethanol, the mixture should gel instantly. Pour off any remaining ethanol (a very small amount). Because the mixture gels instantly, you do not have to combine the two until you need to use it for cooking. I made some Calcium Acetate by neutralizing acetic acid with lime. Works well, gels immediately, burns very nicely, but it's not very stable, best to make it when you need it. This way, since it's bioduels in the Third World rural development setting that we're most interested in, everything required is probably available locally, or could be. Ethanol can be brewed on-site (and probably is already), even if it's not absolute; acetic acid can be brewed the same way, by aerating the mash, and agricultural lime is fairly ubiquitous. Here's another one, with proprietory ingredients: Ethanol Solid Fuel Gel / Fire Starter Carbopol EZ-3 Polymer á Primary thickener for alcohol systems - neutralization with a specific amine is critical á Provides good clarity and overall aesthetics á Low skinning cracking á Approximate burn time of 2.5 hours per 200 grams á Self-wetting polymer for improved handling and easier full-scale processing Formulation Percent Function Trade Name Supplier Carbopol EZ-3 - Weight Percent 0.55 - Thickener - Noveon, Inc. DI Water - Weight Percent 23.90 - Diluent Ethanol - Weight Percent 75.00 - Fuel Triisopropanolamine - Weight Percent 0.55 - Neutralizing agent - Dow Chemical 100.00 Procedure 1. Add the Carbopol EZ-3 polymer to the deionized water with no agitation. The polymer will wet out in a few minutes. 2. With moderate agitation, add the ethanol. 3. Heat the triisopropanolamine until melted and add with good agitation. The product will thicken during this step. Increased agitation will be required. Regards Keith See here for information for the use of jelled fuel alcohol: Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ We have not done so far any experimental work in this field but surely wish to start soon . Some 100 000 Brazilian Real economy is mad possible to be the gain due to the operation of the one small aeroplane/ year that have been adopted to use ethanolinsecticide applications of big Brazilian soy agribusiness the gain compared to the conventional fuel. Thus big one become very big and small farmer very poor
RE: [Biofuel] human gene in rice
Hello Kirk. Oppss, a new chimera was born in the labs at Tsukuba, I remember there were many rice field around and inside that town. I hope they have already have tested and evaluated the eficiency of a control messures or pest for that kind of rice as the nature does for every living thing to keep them under control, in case of an accidental release. I wish the researchers keep the key of the laboratory doors of that GM rice always in a safe and they do not give the access to greedy CEO of agribussiness conmpanies. Not doing so they are going to be responsible from the release of a chimera and surely it will find its way to the fiels I am worried. Regards Juan -- From: Kirk McLoren [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 24/04/2005 4:36 PM For:biofuel Subject:[Biofuel] human gene in rice Aerielle Louise 1-952-447-5049 [EMAIL PROTECTED] GM industry puts human gene into rice Japanese researchers have inserted a gene from the human liver into rice to enable it to digest pesticides and industrial chemicals. The gene makes an enzyme, code-named CPY2B6, which is particularly good at breaking down harmful chemicals in the body. adding the human touch gave the rice immunity to 13 different herbicides. other scientists caution that if the gene were to escape to wild relatives of the rice it could create particularly vicious superweeds that were resistant to a wide range of herbicides. http://news.independent.co.uk/world/environment/story.jsp?story=632444 GM industry puts human gene into rice By Geoffrey Lean, Environment Editor 24 April 2005 Scientists have begun putting genes from human beings into food crops in a dramatic extension of genetic modification. The move, which is causing disgust and revulsion among critics, is bound to strengthen accusations that GM technology is creating Frankenstein foods and drive the controversy surrounding it to new heights. Even before this development, many people, including Prince Charles, have opposed the technology on the grounds that it is playing God by creating unnatural combinations of living things. Environmentalists say that no one will want to eat the partially human-derived food because it will smack of cannibalism. But supporters say that the controversial new departure presents no ethical problems and could bring environmental benefits. In the first modification of its kind, Japanese researchers have inserted a gene from the human liver into rice to enable it to digest pesticides and industrial chemicals. The gene makes an enzyme, code-named CPY2B6, which is particularly good at breaking down harmful chemicals in the body. Present GM crops are modified with genes from bacteria to make them tolerate herbicides, so that they are not harmed when fields are sprayed to kill weeds. But most of them are only able to deal with a single herbicide, which means that it has to be used over and over again, allowing weeds to build up resistance to it. But the researchers at the National Institute of Agrobiological Sciences in Tsukuba, north of Tokyo, have found that adding the human touch gave the rice immunity to 13 different herbicides. This would mean that weeds could be kept down by constantly changing the chemicals used. Supporting scientists say that the gene could also help to beat pollution. Professor Richard Meilan of Purdue University in Indiana, who has worked with a similar gene from rabbits, says that plants modified with it could clean up toxins from contaminated land. They might even destroy them so effectively that crops grown on the polluted soil could be fit to eat. But he and other scientists caution that if the gene were to escape to wild relatives of the rice it could create particularly vicious superweeds that were resistant to a wide range of herbicides. He adds: I do not have any ethical issue with using human genes to engineer plants, dismissing talk of Frankenstein foods as rubbish. He believes that that European opposition to GM crops and food is fuelled by agricultural protectionism. But Sue Mayer, director of GeneWatch UK, said yesterday: I don't think that anyone will want to buy this rice. People have already expressed disgust about using human genes, and already feel that their concerns are being ignored by the biotech industry. This will just undermine their confidence even more. Pete Riley, director of the anti-GM pressure group Five Year Freeze, said: I am not surprised by this. The industry is capable of anything and this development certainly smacks of Frankenstein. 24 April 2005 14:35 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] heat the cottage cheese
the cottage cheese. I took it to 100F and everything cleared up. I then took the washed deiesel and shook it in a jar of water. It started to sepparate almost immediately. Any coments? Did I just need to use warm water instead of cold? Brent ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place
Hi Greg, If I where you, I would be a little more carefull, telling people that try to find environmentle friendly ways of heating their house, that what they say is a joke. Making H2 costs energy, but as long as you can make H2 from a free source, like the sun is, what is the problem ? Even if the yield would only be 5%, you still catch these 5% in stead of letting it go. By the way, I didn't know the bridge in San Francisco was yours. Met vriendelijke groet, Pieter Koole Netherlands - Original Message - From: Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 4:46 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place And how much more energy is going to be wasted, generating all the necessary H2? What a joke. If anyone want to buy the fireplace, I want to know, I have a bridge to sell them, in San Francisco CA. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 03:02 Subject: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place
You still run into H2 storage issues. You would have to spend days making H2 just to run the fireplace for a few of hrs. Why bother? It is more efficient to use the energy in another manor. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 19:12 Subject: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place I would think that you could power the electrolizer with PV or a wind generator regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 21:01:21 If your electrolyzer is 50% efficient then half the power is lost. I guess they are thinking they can make hydrogen in the daytime and burn it at night. A battery and a heatpump would be enormously more efficient. Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:OK, I did some poking around and had a little trouble finding a Watt-hr/BTU value for hydrogen production using electrolysis. Does anyone have a link with some stats? Mike Kirk McLoren wrote: Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ---Original Message--- ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Biopower - was Re: On-farm biodiesel or ethanol
This is an extracxt taken from 'bio-power' news, a publication produced by www.bio-power.co.uk It makes some valid points in my opinion regarding the use of chemicals. I have mentioned this method of fuel production before on this list and got an overwhelming reply with negative comments on this other method of fuel production. If indeed that's what it is. Negative or realistic? Here's my comment: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/44365/ Here's an earlier one (excerpts): They say it is a better process producing better fuel than bio diesel. Does anyone have any comments on that claim? It's not exactly a process, all they do is add a solvent, 3% turpentine or something (or a spoonful according to Top Gear, LOL!). All it does is lower the viscosity a bit, but there's rather more to it than just viscosity, especially with DI diesels - see the ACREVO study on this, for instance: http://www.nf-2000.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm Advanced Combustion Research for Energy from Vegetable Oils (ACREVO) Better than biodiesel? What does better mean? Easier and cheaper to make, sure. Does it also mean that it's been demonstrated in a wide variety of circumstances using different engines and different oils that it won't shorten the expected 500,000-mile life of a diesel motor? No. I don't want to discourage experiment, but that's all it is until there's a lot more on-road experience behind it, as is now becoming the case with two-tank heated SVO systems, and has long been the case with biodiesel. I definitely do want to discourage experiment dressed up as a mature and developed technology and being sold on those grounds. Reminiscent of the chaos caused in South East Asia a year or two back by weird and various mixes of petrodiesel and kerosene with refined or unrefined coconut and palm oil, widely touted as biodiesel, but it damaged engines and persuaded the carmakers to withdraw warranty cover for biofuels, great. I suppose a few people made some money out of it though. If you think viscosity is all that matters, you should also have a look at this: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_SVO-Anso.html Ricardo report on SVO - Niels Ans¿ Maybe that's enough negative/realistic comment for now. People are conducting serious research on the use of additive blends with SVO as fuel (one of them has just joined), but I wouldn't number John Nicholson and the Biopower network among them. On another group a member there (and also here) has asked John Nicholson the same question about his additives at least four times now and fails to get a response, though John Nicholson posts other messages there all the while. I don't think he'll get an answer, he has to pay up first. From below: ... we do have a much more detailed members site which is accessible to people who have been on one of the Bio-power Introductory Seminars and wish to become a Bio-power Local Agent within the Bio-power Network. From the Biopower website: Any individual can join us for free as a supporter or as a subscribing member by sending us a membership fee of £25.00. Both categories of membership will receive the monthly Bio-power News, but only subscribing members will be allowed to vote at the AGM. ... and have access to all the secrets no doubt available at the members' site (password required). I tried to find the issue of Bio-power News you lifted this from, but the latest issue available at the Biopower website is #15 of July / August 2004, and it got a 404 Not Found. Tut tut. The reason I wanted to see it is that the comparison tables and so on are not very clear. Anyway. You can more or less close your eyes and chuck a dart at it, you'll probably hit something iffy. For his reason I find it difficult to reach the end of anything John Nicholson writes, I find myself in editor mode and if it were on paper I'd spike it long before I reached the end. Unfixable, unpublishable First, comparisons are fair enough and useful, and so are discussions of the pro and cons of each, but I've found it's a dead giveaway when promoters of SVO systems or whatever market their wares by bashing biodiesel. It's happened here too, several times, it lacked integrity, and finally I banned it. Hakan put it in perspective: SVO versus biodiesel is a pseudo argument that should not exist. It creates a false competitive situation between two good things and distracts from the real issues on how we can minimize the use of fossil fuels. Quite so. Have a look at this first: SVO vs biodiesel in Europe http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html#SVO-Eu Sounds familiar? John Nicholson: The process otherwise used to make bio-diesel as a Fatty Acid Methyl Ester has many problems associated with the method of manufacture, problems with the materials used and problems connected with the use of the fuel type itself. Ho-hum. This leaves glycerol as a waste by-product. It is not a waste product, it's a by-product, with
RE: [Biofuel] human gene in rice
Hello Kirk. Oppss, a new chimera was born in the labs at Tsukuba, I remember there were many rice field around and inside that town. I hope they have already have tested and evaluated the eficiency of a control messures or pest for that kind of rice as the nature does for every living thing to keep them under control, in case of an accidental release. I wish the researchers keep the key of the laboratory doors of that GM rice always in a safe and they do not give the access to greedy CEO of agribussiness conmpanies. Not doing so they are going to be responsible from the release of a chimera and surely it will find its way to the fiels I am worried. Regards Juan Well might you be worried. I hope your hopes aren't in vain, but the record isn't very good. Current articles: http://www.gmwatch.org/archive2.asp?arcid=5100 Illegal GE rice contaminates food chain in China http://www.gmwatch.org/archive2.asp?arcid=5101 Illegal GM rice went worldwide + detailed briefing These people are not to be trusted at all, and not to be entrusted with anything. Much fear over terrorists abotaging the food supply, but who needs terrorists when we've got the likes of Monsanto? As for watchdogs, the USDA seems to be little more than their sales department. http://www.gmwatch.org/archive2.asp?arcid=5148 Devinder Sharma exposes USDA hype (22/4/2005) Etc etc. Regards Keith -- From: Kirk McLoren [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 24/04/2005 4:36 PM For:biofuel Subject:[Biofuel] human gene in rice Aerielle Louise 1-952-447-5049 [EMAIL PROTECTED] GM industry puts human gene into rice Japanese researchers have inserted a gene from the human liver into rice to enable it to digest pesticides and industrial chemicals. The gene makes an enzyme, code-named CPY2B6, which is particularly good at breaking down harmful chemicals in the body. adding the human touch gave the rice immunity to 13 different herbicides. other scientists caution that if the gene were to escape to wild relatives of the rice it could create particularly vicious superweeds that were resistant to a wide range of herbicides. http://news.independent.co.uk/world/environment/story.jsp?story=632444 GM industry puts human gene into rice By Geoffrey Lean, Environment Editor 24 April 2005 Scientists have begun putting genes from human beings into food crops in a dramatic extension of genetic modification. The move, which is causing disgust and revulsion among critics, is bound to strengthen accusations that GM technology is creating Frankenstein foods and drive the controversy surrounding it to new heights. Even before this development, many people, including Prince Charles, have opposed the technology on the grounds that it is playing God by creating unnatural combinations of living things. Environmentalists say that no one will want to eat the partially human-derived food because it will smack of cannibalism. But supporters say that the controversial new departure presents no ethical problems and could bring environmental benefits. In the first modification of its kind, Japanese researchers have inserted a gene from the human liver into rice to enable it to digest pesticides and industrial chemicals. The gene makes an enzyme, code-named CPY2B6, which is particularly good at breaking down harmful chemicals in the body. Present GM crops are modified with genes from bacteria to make them tolerate herbicides, so that they are not harmed when fields are sprayed to kill weeds. But most of them are only able to deal with a single herbicide, which means that it has to be used over and over again, allowing weeds to build up resistance to it. But the researchers at the National Institute of Agrobiological Sciences in Tsukuba, north of Tokyo, have found that adding the human touch gave the rice immunity to 13 different herbicides. This would mean that weeds could be kept down by constantly changing the chemicals used. Supporting scientists say that the gene could also help to beat pollution. Professor Richard Meilan of Purdue University in Indiana, who has worked with a similar gene from rabbits, says that plants modified with it could clean up toxins from contaminated land. They might even destroy them so effectively that crops grown on the polluted soil could be fit to eat. But he and other scientists caution that if the gene were to escape to wild relatives of the rice it could create particularly vicious superweeds that were resistant to a wide range of herbicides. He adds: I do not have any ethical issue with using human genes to engineer plants, dismissing talk of Frankenstein foods as rubbish. He believes that that European opposition to GM crops and food is fuelled by agricultural protectionism. But Sue Mayer, director of GeneWatch UK, said yesterday: I don't think that anyone will want to buy this rice. People have already expressed disgust about using human genes, and already feel that their concerns are being ignored by the
[Biofuel] Re: was- hydrogen fire place
threads discussing energy and fuel economy scams. Here's one message from Ed Service from 2001: To build a brown's Gas unit you make a device similar to a car battery with multiple stainless steel plates submerged in a tank filled with water. apply a direct current to the plates and the resulting reaction (electrolysis) will separate the oxygen and hydrogen into free gases but they will remain mixed, hense brown's gas! All kinds of wonderful things are claimed for this concoction but, I find it works just like hydrogen and oxygen, eg. KABOOM!! and requires as much energy to produce as the energy achieved. You can get away with just two plates (+ and -) but you won't get much production from it and your plates will have to be very close together if you are using 12 volts. http://www.phact.org/e/bgas.htm Brown's Gas information Best Keith ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello, Well I didn't design the darn thing. I posted it because I thought it was an interesting idea. I always have respect for hydrogen and have been constructing many electrolisers over the years. There are a couple of other companies developing hydrogen bar b ques and hydrogen lawn mowers so this article was along the same line. You may want to read the hydrogen fireplace update that I posted, as it decribes a number of very interesting patents using brown's gas for combustion heating. The devise is not as far fetched or rediculous as it may seem at first glance. Read the other patents info on this type of tech regards Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place Sent: 26 Apr 2005 04:32:16 And if you dumped the power into a resistor (heater) you would get twice as much heat as the fireplace. Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would think that you could power the electrolizer with PV or a wind generator regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 21:01:21 If your electrolyzer is 50% efficient then half the power is lost. I guess they are thinking they can make hydrogen in the daytime and burn it at night. A battery and a heatpump would be enormously more efficient. Michael Redler wrote:OK, I did some poking around and had a little trouble finding a Watt-hr/BTU value for hydrogen production using electrolysis. Does anyone have a link with some stats? Mike Kirk McLoren wrote: Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Jelled ethanol with charcoal and cellulose:solid biofuel
Greeting Keith Even though we spend several hours of search in Internet about gelled fuel, we are not able to find any information about the use of the cellulose , but which have been reported to be very successful. Thank you Keith bringing here real practical experience ,how to make yourself work , which is the real objective of this group. sharing knowledge , practical one on biofuel applications and social neworking based on this knoweldge. My pleasure, I do hope it helps. Ethanol production is widespread in most rural areas, whether legal or not, so it's an existing knowledge base that can be added to for local fuel production needs. I'm looking forward to doing more work on this, and really looking forward to getting into ethanol production here this summer. As well as biogas production, as we discussed previously, hoping among other things to find out how best to utilise raw by-product from biodiesel production for methane production. A pressing problem for us, as our work with burning it as a winter heating fuel wasn't successful (though we solved the heating fuel problem another way, with low-conversion 5% methanol biodiesel). Progress isn't fast, but it's steady, we'll get there I'm sure. All of us. Solid biofuel is poor rural man need , even India lack research in this field, eventhough India has the simple and solid biofuel social technology making use of cowdung , any dried leaves , solar drying , amk possible removing animal waste from big cites by self employed poor social enterprenuers, reusing the wastes solids, instead of incinerating and land fill dumping , selling this one as good poor man fuel of the low cost .But this simple social self employed best technology is excluded by the conventional technology of urbanization using gaseous biofuel is pushed nowadays. Composting was put on a firm scientific footing in the 1920s by Sir Albert Howard in India, working with Indian peasants. (He said they were his professors. Pests and weeds were also his professors.) One of his aims was to extend the use of cowdung, because its use as solid fuel didn't leave enough for fertilising the soil. He found that properly made compost with only 20% cowdung content and the rest plant material was more effective than 100% cowdung (that's definitely true), so there was enough for both needs. Very good work! Jelled biofuel with clean burning using novel products and process can be as importantproject as that of BioD that appear to have impact as social technology as the cow dung based solid fuel technology. I agree. It has had very good results in some areas. I think it's different from BioD, they can fill different needs, different niches. They can be complementary, especially with your idea of integrated local biofuels projects. A missing piece in this puzzle is replacing kerosene for cooking stove fuel. Biodiesel works very well in pressure stoves (roarers), but not in wick stoves, unless they're specially designed. What would be more useful would be a wick stove, or any simple stove, that burns SVO, which will always be more easily available than biodiesel in rural areas. There are some ideas and some designs, but it's not there yet, needs more work. Another missing piece is what Robert was saying about Tom Reed's woodgas camp stoves - they work very well, but only because there's a battery to drive a fan for the primary air supply. I've been part of several intensive discussions with the stoves people on how to achieve this level of efficiency and control without a power source, and it's got nowhere, so far. I sort of gave up our work with woodgas stoves for the time being, hoping to find better answers for cooking with liquid biofuels rather than biomass. I have found some answers, much more to be done still. Not all the work with improved woodstoves is convincing. Often the target communities also aren't convinced. Some comparisons have found that the old three-stone woodfire can be as efficient or more efficient if it's done well. It might be a better idea to find the best fire builder in the valley and get him to give everyone else lessons on how to do it properly. There might also be a bigger need for good chimneys to take the smoke out than for improved woodstoves. Or ethanol gel, eh? Or a good vegoil stove design that a village blacksmith can produce. Thanking once again on behalf all the developing countries , students and teacher can do better social work with this new products and good hope to have the great green future for the needful based on the biomass fuel. Thankyou Pan, but if you thank me I think you have to thank everyone. Most of what I know about biofuels I've gained by applying what I've learnt from list members here, for which I'm MOST grateful. Best regards Keith sd Pannirselvam On
Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place
Hi Greg, You are right. When one starts thinking about their idea a bit more in depth, it sounds kind of silly. Maybe they hope to market it to people who want to see themselves as environmentally responsable while still being able to drive their gas hogs regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place Sent: 26 Apr 2005 17:29:42 You still run into H2 storage issues. You would have to spend days making H2 just to run the fireplace for a few of hrs. Why bother? It is more efficient to use the energy in another manor. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 19:12 Subject: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place I would think that you could power the electrolizer with PV or a wind generator regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network ÊÊ 1000+ news sources-resources ÊÊupdated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 21:01:21 ÊÊIf your electrolyzer is 50% efficient then half the power is lost. I guess they are thinking they can make hydrogen in the daytime and burn it at night. A battery and a heatpump would be enormously more efficient. ÊÊMichael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:OK, I did some poking around and had a little trouble finding a Watt-hr/BTU value for hydrogen production using electrolysis. ÊÊDoes anyone have a link with some stats? ÊÊMike ÊÊKirk McLoren wrote: ÊÊSupplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. ÊÊKirk ÊÊAlt.EnergyNetwork wrote: ÊÊHi all, ÊÊThis is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard ÊÊelectrolysis of water. ÊÊYou still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately ÊÊnot free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. ÊÊCompany states output at around 31,000 btu's. ÊÊIt is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite ÊÊa few clones will be available. ÊÊCertainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn ÊÊclean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. ÊÊThe world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation ÊÊof hearth products ÊÊhttp://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 ÊÊGet your daily alternative energy news ÊÊhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid ÊÊnews resources forums ÊÊhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy ÊÊAlternative Energy Politics ÊÊhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ÊÊAlternate Energy Resource Network ÊÊ1000+ news sources resources ÊÊupdated daily ÊÊhttp://www.alternate-energy.net ÊÊ___ ÊÊBiofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] ÊÊhttp://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel ÊÊBiofuel at Journey to Forever: ÊÊhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html ÊÊBiofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): ÊÊhttp://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ÊÊ__ ÊÊDo You Yahoo!? ÊÊTired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around ÊÊhttp://mail.yahoo.com ÊÊ___ ÊÊBiofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] ÊÊhttp://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel ÊÊBiofuel at Journey to Forever: ÊÊhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html ÊÊBiofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): ÊÊhttp://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ÊÊ___ ÊÊBiofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] ÊÊhttp://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel ÊÊBiofuel at Journey to Forever: ÊÊhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html ÊÊBiofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): ÊÊhttp://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ÊÊ__ ÊÊDo You Yahoo!? ÊÊTired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around ÊÊhttp://mail.yahoo.com ÊÊ___ ÊÊBiofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] ÊÊhttp://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel ÊÊBiofuel at Journey to
Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place
I don't see conflicting opinions. I just see different motives. Agreed; H2 via electrolysis is not efficient by most comparisons. But, since when is a fireplace anyone's first choice for an efficient means of heating a home? Yet millions of people (including myself and other environmentally conscious individuals) choose to use fuel inefficiently from time to time and create a pleasant atmosphere -- especially when family and friends are gathered together during their time off. Although it's hard to quantify, there is value in activities like sitting in front of a fireplace. Mike Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You still run into H2 storage issues. You would have to spend days making H2 just to run the fireplace for a few of hrs. Why bother? It is more efficient to use the energy in another manor. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Alt.EnergyNetwork To: Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 19:12 Subject: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place I would think that you could power the electrolizer with PV or a wind generator regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 21:01:21 If your electrolyzer is 50% efficient then half the power is lost. I guess they are thinking they can make hydrogen in the daytime and burn it at night. A battery and a heatpump would be enormously more efficient. Michael Redler wrote:OK, I did some poking around and had a little trouble finding a Watt-hr/BTU value for hydrogen production using electrolysis. Does anyone have a link with some stats? Mike Kirk McLoren wrote: Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ---Original Message--- ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol vs Petrol
Hello Paul. As you probably know, methanol is used as fuel in speedway, with motorcycle engines for that fuel. Methanol in gasoline engines will cause: 1. Incompletely burned ethanol forms formic acid, which is aggressive to the engine oil and material. 2. During cold start operation the exhaust fumes will contain formaldehyde, which is carcinogenic. 3. Mixing methanol with gasoline will lean the fuel/air mixture, which will lead to power loss and high combustion temperatures, higher than the engine is designed for. 4. Methanol is aggressive to aluminium, rubber and plastic and will cause wear in your engine. 5. if you want to go for methanol, buy a Ford taurus FFV, which will accept methanol, ethanol and gasoline in all proportions. 6. Good luck. Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Paul Maher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 10:32 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol vs Petrol Hi all, The local price for 1 liter of petrol (gas) is over 5.00, I can get methanol for 2.83. The obvious question is is it safe to put methanol into the petrol and how much? It also makes me wonder why methanol is not used as a fuel more. The car I drive is fuel injected, would putting methanol into it mean I would have to have the computer set to give more/less air? Regards Paul ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] radioactive -was hydrogen fire place
Hello JD2005, can you give me some information. What is this radioactive material that they(who?) are putting in washing powder. Also how does this material disasociate water or make clothes dry faster? thanks for your reply regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: JD2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place Sent: 27 Apr 2005 12:10:55 I do not agree with the utilisation of water to get wasser stoff (hydrogen) but it is possible to dissociate water with radioactive material such as they are putting in washing power these days to make laundry dry more quickly. JD2005 - Original Message - From: bob allen I guess if you ran the electrolysis device in your living room to recover the lost heat, but still there have to be better ways to provide space heat. It would be just as efficient and a lot cheaper to run a bare nichrome wire for heat. Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: I would think that you could power the electrolizer with PV or a wind generator regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network ÊÊ 1000+ news sources-resources ÊÊupdated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 21:01:21 If your electrolyzer is 50% efficient then half the power is lost. I guess they are thinking they can make hydrogen in the daytime and burn it at night. A battery and a heatpump would be enormously more efficient. Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:OK, I did some poking around and had a little trouble finding a Watt-hr/BTU value for hydrogen production using electrolysis. Does anyone have a link with some stats? Mike Kirk McLoren wrote: Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ---Original Message--- ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place
JD2005 wrote: I do not agree with the utilisation of water to get wasser stoff (hydrogen) but it is possible to dissociate water with radioactive material such as they are putting in washing power these days to make laundry dry more quickly. JD2005 - Original Message - From: bob allen I guess if you ran the electrolysis device in your living room to recover the lost heat, but still there have to be better ways to provide space heat. It would be just as efficient and a lot cheaper to run a bare nichrome wire for heat. Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: I would think that you could power the electrolizer with PV or a wind generator regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 21:01:21 If your electrolyzer is 50% efficient then half the power is lost. I guess they are thinking they can make hydrogen in the daytime and burn it at night. A battery and a heatpump would be enormously more efficient. Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:OK, I did some poking around and had a little trouble finding a Watt-hr/BTU value for hydrogen production using electrolysis. Does anyone have a link with some stats? Mike Kirk McLoren wrote: Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves Richard Feynman --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place
Tallex, If you think this is silly, you just wait, I heard that they will start to use it in cars also. LOL Hakan At 07:48 PM 4/26/2005, you wrote: Hi Greg, You are right. When one starts thinking about their idea a bit more in depth, it sounds kind of silly. Maybe they hope to market it to people who want to see themselves as environmentally responsable while still being able to drive their gas hogs regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place Sent: 26 Apr 2005 17:29:42 You still run into H2 storage issues. You would have to spend days making H2 just to run the fireplace for a few of hrs. Why bother? It is more efficient to use the energy in another manor. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 19:12 Subject: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place I would think that you could power the electrolizer with PV or a wind generator regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 21:01:21 If your electrolyzer is 50% efficient then half the power is lost. I guess they are thinking they can make hydrogen in the daytime and burn it at night. A battery and a heatpump would be enormously more efficient. Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:OK, I did some poking around and had a little trouble finding a Watt-hr/BTU value for hydrogen production using electrolysis. Does anyone have a link with some stats? Mike Kirk McLoren wrote: Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place
I understand that hydrogen flames are pale, hard to see, and emit much less radiative heat than flames from the combustion of carbon and its compounds. I don't think a hydrogen fireplace would satisfy those who wanted a fireplace for the colour and play of its flames and the radiated heat. In a traditional fireplace more of the heat would be convective, and would disappear up the chimney, that with a wood fire. My take is that this is a very ill-thought-out idea, and a loser all round. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Tue, 26 Apr 2005, Michael Redler wrote: I don't see conflicting opinions. I just see different motives. Agreed; H2 via electrolysis is not efficient by most comparisons. But, since when is a fireplace anyone's first choice for an efficient means of heating a home? Yet millions of people (including myself and other environmentally conscious individuals) choose to use fuel inefficiently from time to time and create a pleasant atmosphere -- especially when family and friends are gathered together during their time off. Although it's hard to quantify, there is value in activities like sitting in front of a fireplace. Mike [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place
I don't see conflicting opinions. I just see different motives. Agreed; H2 via electrolysis is not efficient by most comparisons. But, since when is a fireplace anyone's first choice for an efficient means of heating a home? Yet millions of people (including myself and other environmentally conscious individuals) choose to use fuel inefficiently from time to time and create a pleasant atmosphere -- especially when family and friends are gathered together during their time off. Given that hydrogen burns with a nearly invisible flame, it's hard to visualize this kind of benefit. Although it's hard to quantify, there is value in activities like sitting in front of a fireplace. I can understand that. However, there is so much hype concerning hydrogen as an energy carrier, as if it's some grand solution to all of our energy problems, that many responses to this thread carry a measure of disgust. Why can't we simply use LESS energy, rather than touting a technology that will increase energy waste? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place
Mike, At 07:56 PM 4/26/2005, you wrote: I don't see conflicting opinions. I just see different motives. Agreed; H2 via electrolysis is not efficient by most comparisons. But, since when is a fireplace anyone's first choice for an efficient means of heating a home? Yet millions of people (including myself and other environmentally conscious individuals) choose to use fuel inefficiently from time to time You must mean most of the time. and create a pleasant atmosphere -- especially when family and friends are gathered together during their time off. Although it's hard to quantify, there is value in activities like sitting in front of a fireplace. and doing the right thing, burning water. An expensive school experiment, but who cares, it is the modern way of having a romantic moment. Burning the money will give less BTU anyway, or maybe not, the way that the $ is heading. Hakan Mike Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You still run into H2 storage issues. You would have to spend days making H2 just to run the fireplace for a few of hrs. Why bother? It is more efficient to use the energy in another manor. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Alt.EnergyNetwork To: Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 19:12 Subject: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place I would think that you could power the electrolizer with PV or a wind generator regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 21:01:21 If your electrolyzer is 50% efficient then half the power is lost. I guess they are thinking they can make hydrogen in the daytime and burn it at night. A battery and a heatpump would be enormously more efficient. Michael Redler wrote:OK, I did some poking around and had a little trouble finding a Watt-hr/BTU value for hydrogen production using electrolysis. Does anyone have a link with some stats? Mike Kirk McLoren wrote: Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place
invisible. Instead gather around a nice red nichrome wire. Michael Redler wrote: I don't see conflicting opinions. I just see different motives. Agreed; H2 via electrolysis is not efficient by most comparisons. But, since when is a fireplace anyone's first choice for an efficient means of heating a home? Yet millions of people (including myself and other environmentally conscious individuals) choose to use fuel inefficiently from time to time and create a pleasant atmosphere -- especially when family and friends are gathered together during their time off. Although it's hard to quantify, there is value in activities like sitting in front of a fireplace. Mike Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You still run into H2 storage issues. You would have to spend days making H2 just to run the fireplace for a few of hrs. Why bother? It is more efficient to use the energy in another manor. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Alt.EnergyNetwork To: Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 19:12 Subject: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place I would think that you could power the electrolizer with PV or a wind generator regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 21:01:21 If your electrolyzer is 50% efficient then half the power is lost. I guess they are thinking they can make hydrogen in the daytime and burn it at night. A battery and a heatpump would be enormously more efficient. Michael Redler wrote:OK, I did some poking around and had a little trouble finding a Watt-hr/BTU value for hydrogen production using electrolysis. Does anyone have a link with some stats? Mike Kirk McLoren wrote: Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ---Original Message--- ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable):
Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place
I do not agree with the utilisation of water to get wasser stoff (hydrogen) but it is possible to dissociate water with radioactive material such as they are putting in washing power these days to make laundry dry more quickly. JD2005 - Original Message - From: bob allen I guess if you ran the electrolysis device in your living room to recover the lost heat, but still there have to be better ways to provide space heat. It would be just as efficient and a lot cheaper to run a bare nichrome wire for heat. Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: I would think that you could power the electrolizer with PV or a wind generator regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 21:01:21 If your electrolyzer is 50% efficient then half the power is lost. I guess they are thinking they can make hydrogen in the daytime and burn it at night. A battery and a heatpump would be enormously more efficient. Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:OK, I did some poking around and had a little trouble finding a Watt-hr/BTU value for hydrogen production using electrolysis. Does anyone have a link with some stats? Mike Kirk McLoren wrote: Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Changfa diesel generator
Anybody know how to sound proof a Changfa diesel generator? JD2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
