[Biofuel] Sun Chokes (was Happy Thanksgiving)
Jim,
I went to great lengths to get sun chokes out of an area of the garden.
They were insidious sprouting up all over the place. Then I found out
that they were delicious and a good source of carbohydrate for fermentation.
I've really come to enjoy walking out the back door to pick what I'm going
to eat. Eating weeds (sun chokes) and compostables (pumpkins) is especially
enjoyable. It seems to fill me in places other food doesn't reach.
I hope that some of the sun chokes survived my efforts to eliminate them
so I can cultivate them for the years to come.
Good stuff,
Tom
- Original Message -
From: JAMES PHELPS
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Happy Thanksgiving
They are also Painfully called Jerusalem artichokes. I consider them a
delicacy that warrants respect, so hence I call them by another name. you
really should try them if you have a spot that gets hot sun and you can give
them tons of water.
And yes I am a bit more partial to the stout as well!
Jim
- Original Message -
From: Thomas Kelly
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Happy Thanksgiving
Jim,
Go with the STOUT .. didn't mean to shout
What are Sun Chokes?? (Jerusalem Artichokes?)
This is becoming the food network .. food the original
biofuel.
No complaints from me, I like it.
Like a friend says: Food is good, especially when you're hungry. It
comes in different colors and flavors too, ya know.
Tom
- Original Message -
From: JAMES PHELPS
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Happy Thanksgiving
The only trouble I have is deciding between Stout or draft. h
Say for those inclined to grow Sun chokes here is my favorite recipe for
this native American tuber;
Steam 2 cups sunchokes till fully cooked
mash in saucepan LEAVE SKINS ON!
Add 1 can Chicken or beef broth 11/2 cups
Add 1 can of mushroom stems and pieces
Add 1 cup cream half and half
1 teaspoon Corriander
1 teaspoon powdered dill
1/4 cup rice powder (I prefer basmati or Japanese mini rice {king of
rice})
1 teaspoon salt
dash of pepper (on top of each bowl to dress it up)
(you can make rice powder with a coffee grinder as D Mindock mentioned)
Add water to preferred consistency
Add a pat of butter on top when serving with some chopped chives as a
Enjoy!
- Original Message -
From: Thomas Kelly
To: biofuel
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:16 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Happy Thanksgiving
Happy Thanksgiving to All,
May we all enjoy our Pumpkin Soup, a slab of Crusty Bread, and our
favorite refreshment . James Phelps' suggestion of a Guiness appeals to
me.
Best Wishes to All,
Tom
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Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
On 11/24/06, D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leo, Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's correct or not, I not qualified to say. Peace, D. Mindock 11/23/2006 *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax* *by Richard J. Marbury* snip Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country where we can have them. snip It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source of abundance is God? Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide, slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about... Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Jim, Add BD to denature . great idea. Still perfectly suitable for making ethyl esters. It wasn't on the list of possibilities, but there is an option to apply for different denaturants. The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? .. cut back 98+% on methanol use. Uh-oh Now YOU have me thinking . dangerous am using a table saw again today. Would 80 - 85% ethanol, denatured with methanol (2%?) be suitable for gas cars? Tom - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:16 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Joe and Tom, Yes they won't sell anhydrous Ethanol e-100 without adding gasoline or . perhaps Biodiesel if the customer asks for it that way, Hmm now if I can just get my friend at the Ethanol plant to use Biodiesel to denture it instead of gas. H Jim - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all wrong. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. soon Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I got a
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
On 11/26/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jim, Add BD to denature . great idea. Still perfectly suitable for making ethyl esters. It wasn't on the list of possibilities, but there is an option to apply for different denaturants. The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? I thought that biodiesel was non-toxic -- enough so that you could drink a 2% solution? It you're going to drink 98% ethanol, are you going to be concerned about a little biodiesel in there? I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol denatured with either biodiesel or methanol. Z If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? .. cut back 98+% on methanol use. Uh-oh Now YOU have me thinking . dangerous am using a table saw again today. Would 80 - 85% ethanol, denatured with methanol (2%?) be suitable for gas cars? Tom - Original Message - *From:* JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:16 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Joe and Tom, Yes they won't sell anhydrous Ethanol e-100 without adding gasoline or . perhaps Biodiesel if the customer asks for it that way, Hmm now if I can just get my friend at the Ethanol plant to use Biodiesel to denture it instead of gas. H Jim - Original Message - *From:* Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:42 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all wrong. Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
On Nov 26, 2006, at 7:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? There are several levels of denaturing -- fully denatured needs to be foul-tasting, not just poisonous. Biodiesel wouldn't qualify as either :-) Ethanol denatured only with methanol is considered only partially denatured, and is still subject to restrictions and reporting. -K___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Foul tasting eh. In my opinion, beer is foul tasting and thus would be a suitable denaturant but I suspect the regulatory bodies wouldn't agree with me. On 11/26/06, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 26, 2006, at 7:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? There are several levels of denaturing -- fully denatured needs to be foul-tasting, not just poisonous. Biodiesel wouldn't qualify as either :-) Ethanol denatured only with methanol is considered only partially denatured, and is still subject to restrictions and reporting. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The corporations sell us on frredom yet the infant mortality in Belize is better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live elsewhere. Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em and weep. Kirk Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/24/06, D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Leo, Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's correct or not, I not qualified to say. Peace, D. Mindock 11/23/2006 The Great Thanksgiving Hoax by Richard J. Marbury snip Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country where we can have them. snip It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source of abundance is God? Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide, slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about... Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Hi All, Hoax indeed. This revisionist version of the Pilgrims Progress is pure unadulterated neo-con spin. Our masters continually rewrite history to make it fit their political ambitions. As always, the aim is to blind the Great Unwashed and line them up behind whatever their current scheme is to a) stay on top, b) hog all the goodies, and c) keep the peasants in line. We don't need to know any facts at all about the first colonists except the obvious that starving people are desperate. They will even stoop to working in the fields if necessary just to stay alive, which would suggest that political orientation is much lower on the individual's hierachy of needs. Yes, some did die in the first years. How many of inherited diseases, poor housing, worse diet and plain homesickness is just a guess. What we can be sure of is that crop failure would be a likely outcome under alien conditions. We also know that the Founding Fathers learned quickly and soon adapted. However, if an assessment of socialism as a working concept is needed let us - instead of making assumptions about the outcome of socialism in the first colony - take a look at how it actually works out in practice in modern states. See below for a re-run of the recent Scientific American article. On the question of efficient production and use of resources, how about this fact (taken from Freedom Next Time, John Pilger's latest book: The US military budget for one year is the equivalent of $30,000 an hour for every hour since Christ was born. Bob. From: http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=000AF3D5-6DC9-152E-A 9F183414B7FScientific American, Oct. 16, 2006 http://www.precaution.org/lib/06/prn_nordic_economies_work.061016.htm [Printer-friendly version] The Social Welfare State, Beyond Ideology Are higher taxes and strong social safety nets antagonistic to a prosperous market economy? The evidence is now in. By http://www.powells.com/biblio/17-1594200459-8Jeffrey D. Sachs One of the great challenges of sustainable development is to combine society's desires for economic prosperity and social security. For decades economists and politicians have debated how to reconcile the undoubted power of markets with the reassuring protections of social insurance. America's supply-siders claim that the best way to achieve well-being for America's poor is by spurring rapid economic growth and that the higher taxes needed to fund high levels of social insurance would cripple prosperity. Austrian-born free-market economist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_HayekFriedrich August von Hayek suggested in the 1940s that high taxation would be a road to serfdom, a threat to freedom itself. Most of the debate in the U.S. is clouded by vested interests and by ideology. Yet there is by now a rich empirical record to judge these issues scientifically. The evidence may be found by comparing a group of relatively free-market economies that have low to moderate rates of taxation and social outlays with a group of social-welfare states that have high rates of taxation and social outlays. Not coincidentally, the low-tax, high-income countries are mostly English-speaking ones that share a direct historical lineage with 19th-century Britain and its theories of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire_economicseconomic laissez-faire. These countries include Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, the U.K. and the U.S. The high-tax, high-income states are the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countriesNordic social democracies, notably Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden, which have been governed by left-of-center social democratic parties for much or all of the post-World War II era. They combine a healthy respect for market forces with a strong commitment to antipoverty programs. Budgetary outlays for social purposes average around 27 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) in the Nordic countries and just 17 percent of GDP in the English-speaking countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_HayekFriedrich Von Hayek was wrong On average, the Nordic countries outperform the Anglo-Saxon ones on most measures of economic performance. Poverty rates are much lower there, and national income per working-age population is on average higher. Unemployment rates are roughly the same in both groups, just slightly higher in the Nordic countries. The budget situation is stronger in the Nordic group, with larger surpluses as a share of GDP. The Nordic countries maintain their dynamism despite high taxation in several ways. Most important, they spend lavishly on research and development and higher education. All of them, but especially Sweden and Finland, have taken to the sweeping revolution in information and communications technology and leveraged it to gain global competitiveness. Sweden
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Gee and all this time I thought Thanksgiving was about the retail merchants giving thanks for the starting gun of the X-mas season going off. Jim ;^) - Original Message - From: Bob Molloymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Hi All, Hoax indeed. This revisionist version of the Pilgrims Progress is pure unadulterated neo-con spin. Our masters continually rewrite history to make it fit their political ambitions. As always, the aim is to blind the Great Unwashed and line them up behind whatever their current scheme is to a) stay on top, b) hog all the goodies, and c) keep the peasants in line. We don't need to know any facts at all about the first colonists except the obvious that starving people are desperate. They will even stoop to working in the fields if necessary just to stay alive, which would suggest that political orientation is much lower on the individual's hierachy of needs. Yes, some did die in the first years. How many of inherited diseases, poor housing, worse diet and plain homesickness is just a guess. What we can be sure of is that crop failure would be a likely outcome under alien conditions. We also know that the Founding Fathers learned quickly and soon adapted. However, if an assessment of socialism as a working concept is needed let us - instead of making assumptions about the outcome of socialism in the first colony - take a look at how it actually works out in practice in modern states. See below for a re-run of the recent Scientific American article. On the question of efficient production and use of resources, how about this fact (taken from Freedom Next Time, John Pilger's latest book: The US military budget for one year is the equivalent of $30,000 an hour for every hour since Christ was born. Bob. From: http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=000AF3D5-6DC9-152E-Ahttp://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=000AF3D5-6DC9-152E-A 9F183414B7FScientific American, Oct. 16, 2006 http://www.precaution.org/lib/06/prn_nordic_economies_work.061016.htmhttp://www.precaution.org/lib/06/prn_nordic_economies_work.061016.htm [Printer-friendly version] The Social Welfare State, Beyond Ideology Are higher taxes and strong social safety nets antagonistic to a prosperous market economy? The evidence is now in. By http://www.powells.com/biblio/17-1594200459-8Jeffreyhttp://www.powells.com/biblio/17-1594200459-8Jeffrey D. Sachs One of the great challenges of sustainable development is to combine society's desires for economic prosperity and social security. For decades economists and politicians have debated how to reconcile the undoubted power of markets with the reassuring protections of social insurance. America's supply-siders claim that the best way to achieve well-being for America's poor is by spurring rapid economic growth and that the higher taxes needed to fund high levels of social insurance would cripple prosperity. Austrian-born free-market economist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_HayekFriedrichhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_HayekFriedrich August von Hayek suggested in the 1940s that high taxation would be a road to serfdom, a threat to freedom itself. Most of the debate in the U.S. is clouded by vested interests and by ideology. Yet there is by now a rich empirical record to judge these issues scientifically. The evidence may be found by comparing a group of relatively free-market economies that have low to moderate rates of taxation and social outlays with a group of social-welfare states that have high rates of taxation and social outlays. Not coincidentally, the low-tax, high-income countries are mostly English-speaking ones that share a direct historical lineage with 19th-century Britain and its theories of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire_economicseconomichttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire_economicseconomic laissez-faire. These countries include Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, the U.K. and the U.S. The high-tax, high-income states are the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countriesNordichttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countriesNordic social democracies, notably Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden, which have been governed by left-of-center social democratic parties for much or all of the post-World War II era. They combine a healthy respect for market forces with a strong commitment to antipoverty programs. Budgetary outlays for social purposes average around 27 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) in the Nordic countries and just 17 percent of GDP in the English-speaking countries.
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Kirk McLoren wrote: We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The corporations sell us on frredom yet the infant mortality in Belize is better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live elsewhere. Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em and weep. I did and your off the mark. We do rank poorly among European and some Asian countries but ahead of most poorer countries. (36th on a list at http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm) see http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html for example Belize 24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) United States 6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Canada4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Sweden3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Iceland 3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) India61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) China27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Kirk */Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leo, Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's correct or not, I not qualified to say. Peace, D. Mindock 11/23/2006 *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax* /by Richard J. Marbury/ snip Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country where we can have them. snip It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source of abundance is God? Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide, slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about... Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42297/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/551 - Release Date: 11/25/2006 -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Wow that's almost 4 to one worse. Also how do Canada, Sweden and Iceland do so well coming from the free world? - Original Message - From: bob allenmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 7:32 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Kirk McLoren wrote: We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The corporations sell us on frredom yet the infant mortality in Belize is better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live elsewhere. Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em and weep. I did and your off the mark. We do rank poorly among European and some Asian countries but ahead of most poorer countries. (36th on a list at http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htmhttp://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm) see http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.htmlhttp://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html for example Belize 24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) United States 6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Canada 4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Sweden3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Iceland 3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) India 61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) China 27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Kirk */Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]/mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leo, Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's correct or not, I not qualified to say. Peace, D. Mindock 11/23/2006 *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax* /by Richard J. Marbury/ snip Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country where we can have them. snip It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source of abundance is God? Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide, slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about... Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42297/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbetahttp://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42297/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/551 - Release Date: 11/25/2006 -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bobhttp://ozarker.org/bob
Re: [Biofuel] Sun Chokes (was Happy Thanksgiving)
If you roto - till the bed in early spring (frost just out) and add a ton of
good compost water well all summer and don't harvest till after the stalk is
long dead, (this allows the tuber to grow under ground well after the killing
frost.) You will get tubers as big as your fist without warts and stuff. Mine
were grown in Biodiesel by product compost and the plants got around 16' tall,
the stalks were as large in dia as corn stalks. In late October a small yellow
flower bloomed and I just managed the seasons last flower arrangement prior to
the killing frosts.
I'm not sure what happens but I think the tuber feeds on the stalk after the
frost??
Jim
- Original Message -
From: Thomas Kellymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 5:17 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Sun Chokes (was Happy Thanksgiving)
Jim,
I went to great lengths to get sun chokes out of an area of the
garden. They were insidious sprouting up all over the place. Then I
found out that they were delicious and a good source of carbohydrate for
fermentation.
I've really come to enjoy walking out the back door to pick what I'm
going to eat. Eating weeds (sun chokes) and compostables (pumpkins) is
especially enjoyable. It seems to fill me in places other food doesn't reach.
I hope that some of the sun chokes survived my efforts to eliminate them
so I can cultivate them for the years to come.
Good stuff,
Tom
- Original Message -
From: JAMES PHELPSmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Happy Thanksgiving
They are also Painfully called Jerusalem artichokes. I consider them a
delicacy that warrants respect, so hence I call them by another name. you
really should try them if you have a spot that gets hot sun and you can give
them tons of water.
And yes I am a bit more partial to the stout as well!
Jim
- Original Message -
From: Thomas Kellymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Happy Thanksgiving
Jim,
Go with the STOUT .. didn't mean to shout
What are Sun Chokes?? (Jerusalem Artichokes?)
This is becoming the food network .. food the original
biofuel.
No complaints from me, I like it.
Like a friend says: Food is good, especially when you're hungry.
It comes in different colors and flavors too, ya know.
Tom
- Original Message -
From: JAMES PHELPSmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Happy Thanksgiving
The only trouble I have is deciding between Stout or draft. h
Say for those inclined to grow Sun chokes here is my favorite recipe
for this native American tuber;
Steam 2 cups sunchokes till fully cooked
mash in saucepan LEAVE SKINS ON!
Add 1 can Chicken or beef broth 11/2 cups
Add 1 can of mushroom stems and pieces
Add 1 cup cream half and half
1 teaspoon Corriander
1 teaspoon powdered dill
1/4 cup rice powder (I prefer basmati or Japanese mini rice {king of
rice})
1 teaspoon salt
dash of pepper (on top of each bowl to dress it up)
(you can make rice powder with a coffee grinder as D Mindock mentioned)
Add water to preferred consistency
Add a pat of butter on top when serving with some chopped chives as a
Enjoy!
- Original Message -
From: Thomas Kellymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuelmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:16 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Happy Thanksgiving
Happy Thanksgiving to All,
May we all enjoy our Pumpkin Soup, a slab of Crusty Bread, and
our favorite refreshment . James Phelps' suggestion of a Guiness
appeals to me.
Best Wishes to All,
Tom
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
methanol can also be used as a denaturant, at 5%. ANYWAY... gasoline in small amounts will not ruin a reaction, but it will pollute the BD with unwanted fossil products. and anhydrous alcohol is not difficult to buy in bulk, its just a lot more expensive (and probably - long term - cheaper to make yourself...). Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Jim, Bad news. I don't think it will ever be possible to obtain 99%+ ethanol in the US unless you make it yourself. That is exactly what I planned to work on this past summer. I contacted the National Revenue Center to get info regarding ethanol production in order to make ethyl esters. They were very helpful. It is necessary to obtain a permit. Ethanol used on the premises covered under the permit does not have to be denatured, but any ethanol that leaves the premises must be denatured ex. 2 gal of unleaded gasoline added to 100 gal of ethanol. Because of this, I don't think it will be possible to obtain ethanol from another site. I don't know what effect the 2 gallons of gasoline/100 gal of ethanol would have on the transesterification process. I also suspect that only an E-85 blend would be available. May have to consider making fuel grade ethanol. I got discouraged and put it aside. Tom From: JAMES PHELPS To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 4:02 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? It is something that I intend to fiddle with soon. I like ethanol as it won't blind you only makes you see double temporarily ;^). Jim - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Ethanol to make ethyl esters makes good sense. Not only renewable, but carbon neutral as well. May have to tweak the process a bit . vacuum to reduce water in oil? Use high quality WVO or do an Acid Stage to reduce FFAs. Haven't heard of anyone using ethanol and the Foolproof Method. Worth the effort I'd think. Will make for interesting discussion when ethanol (99%+) becomes available. Tom - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Francisco, I predict that Biodiesel producers will start working with ethanol as a result of these price increases, this is a good thing and it needs to happen, when it does that means the biodiesel produced with ethanol is 100% renewable and not independent on a chemical produced with natural gas. After all when we run out of gas, that is what we will have to use anyway. The current timing is right as there are several hundred Ethanol plants across the US gearing up for production in 2007. We have one within 80 miles that I will start buying from when my methanol is out. Jim - Original Message - From: FRANCISCO To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:22 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? I assume the metanol demand world wide is increasing as biofuels production are increasing sharply. Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do to pressure on demand not cost build up reasons? VEry best Chic VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM wrote: It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is produced from ethylene (petroleum). I'm not surprising that methanol prices have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so. They probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated. The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is more difficult and costly. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a
Re: [Biofuel] The Cultural Differences
HA HA HA!!! oh man! this is really funny. and the jabs at americans are totally true... (BTW i am american sad to say) Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: leo bunyan To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:11 AM Subject: [Biofuel] The Cultural Differences Aussies: Dislike being mistaken for Pommies (Brits) when abroad. Canadians: Are rather indignant about being mistaken for Americans whenabroad. Americans: Encourage being mistaken for Canadians when abroad. Brits: Can't possibly be mistaken for anyone else when abroad. Aussies: Believe you should look out for your mates. Brits: Believe that you should look out for those people who belong to your club. Americans: Believe that people should look out for take care ofthemselves. Canadians: Believe that that's the government's job. Aussies: Are extremely patriotic to their beer. Americans: Are flag-waving, anthem-singing, and obsessively patriotic to the point of blindness. Canadians: Can't agree on the words to their anthem, when they can bebothered to sing them. Brits: Do not sing at all but prefer a large brass band to perform theanthem. Americans: Spend most of their lives glued to the idiot box. Canadians: Don't, but only because they can't get more American channels. Brits: Pay a tax just so they can watch four channels. Aussies: Export all their crappy programs, which no-one there watches, to Britain, where everybody loves them. Americans: Will jabber on incessantly about football, baseball, andbasketball. Brits: Will jabber on incessantly about cricket, soccer, and rugby. Canadians: Will jabber on incessantly about hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey, and how they beat the Americans twice, playing baseball. Aussies: Will jabber on incessantly about how they beat the Poms in every sport they play them in. Americans: Spell words differently, but still call it English. Brits: Pronounce their words differently, but still call it English. Canadians: Spell like the Brits, pronounce like Americans. Aussies: Add G'day, mate and a heavy accent to everything they say in an attempt to get laid. Brits: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on an island. Aussies: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on anisland. Americans: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas, liquor in a backwards country. Canadians: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas, liquor in a backwards country. Americans: Drink weak, pissy-tasting beer. Canadians: Drink strong, pissy-tasting beer. Brits: Drink warm, beery-tasting piss. Aussies: Drink anything with alcohol in it. Americans: Seem to think that poverty failure are morally suspect. Canadians: Seem to believe that wealth and success are morally suspect. Brits: Seem to believe that wealth, poverty, success and failure areinherited things. Aussies: Seem to think that none of this matters after several beersSend instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.14.17/553 - Release Date: 11/27/2006 4:00 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.14.17/553 - Release Date: 11/27/2006 4:00 AM ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] create your oen shower spa
http://www.instructables.com/id/EBRBR1P2QYEPD7R0NP/?ALLSTEPS - Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
you cannot repeat CAN NOT let the mash boil when using a castor screen, it will allow watery droplets of stock to the top and contaminate the batch. and i think (need to test) if you let the mix settle long enough, the oil will settle through the alcohol and force the water to the bottom - i think. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. soon Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg . problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it. I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the zeolite. How do we heat the trap? I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects some have stalled due to loss of interest I've got to rally. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Ditto Maybe this little methanol price crisis will serve as a wake-up call ... Good to hear from you Hope you're on the mend Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol Hi Tom; I couldn't agree more. I have always planned to attempt ethyl esters. That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand the limits for water are much tighter with ethyl esters production. Don't forget about the castor oil method for drying alcohol. I got some castor oil to experiment with but due to an injury I have been laid up for a while and haven't done much. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Kurt, Thanks for the info. Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home. People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source. Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol production. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Kurt Nolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process. -Kurt Thomas Kelly wrote: It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood. Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas? Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol produced from it renewable and carbon neutral. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Thanks Bob. Good input!!! I put that hoax article out there to see what the reponse would be. I hope Leo gets your comeback. I don't want him to suffer from spinmeisterism. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Bob Molloy To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Hi All, Hoax indeed. This revisionist version of the Pilgrims Progress is pure unadulterated neo-con spin. Our masters continually rewrite history to make it fit their political ambitions. As always, the aim is to blind the Great Unwashed and line them up behind whatever their current scheme is to a) stay on top, b) hog all the goodies, and c) keep the peasants in line. We don't need to know any facts at all about the first colonists except the obvious that starving people are desperate. They will even stoop to working in the fields if necessary just to stay alive, which would suggest that political orientation is much lower on the individual's hierachy of needs. Yes, some did die in the first years. How many of inherited diseases, poor housing, worse diet and plain homesickness is just a guess. What we can be sure of is that crop failure would be a likely outcome under alien conditions. We also know that the Founding Fathers learned quickly and soon adapted. However, if an assessment of socialism as a working concept is needed let us - instead of making assumptions about the outcome of socialism in the first colony - take a look at how it actually works out in practice in modern states. See below for a re-run of the recent Scientific American article. On the question of efficient production and use of resources, how about this fact (taken from Freedom Next Time, John Pilger's latest book: The US military budget for one year is the equivalent of $30,000 an hour for every hour since Christ was born. Bob. From: http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=000AF3D5-6DC9-152E-A 9F183414B7FScientific American, Oct. 16, 2006 http://www.precaution.org/lib/06/prn_nordic_economies_work.061016.htm [Printer-friendly version] The Social Welfare State, Beyond Ideology Are higher taxes and strong social safety nets antagonistic to a prosperous market economy? The evidence is now in. By http://www.powells.com/biblio/17-1594200459-8Jeffrey D. Sachs One of the great challenges of sustainable development is to combine society's desires for economic prosperity and social security. For decades economists and politicians have debated how to reconcile the undoubted power of markets with the reassuring protections of social insurance. America's supply-siders claim that the best way to achieve well-being for America's poor is by spurring rapid economic growth and that the higher taxes needed to fund high levels of social insurance would cripple prosperity. Austrian-born free-market economist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_HayekFriedrich August von Hayek suggested in the 1940s that high taxation would be a road to serfdom, a threat to freedom itself. Most of the debate in the U.S. is clouded by vested interests and by ideology. Yet there is by now a rich empirical record to judge these issues scientifically. The evidence may be found by comparing a group of relatively free-market economies that have low to moderate rates of taxation and social outlays with a group of social-welfare states that have high rates of taxation and social outlays. Not coincidentally, the low-tax, high-income countries are mostly English-speaking ones that share a direct historical lineage with 19th-century Britain and its theories of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire_economicseconomic laissez-faire. These countries include Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, the U.K. and the U.S. The high-tax, high-income states are the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countriesNordic social democracies, notably Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden, which have been governed by left-of-center social democratic parties for much or all of the post-World War II era. They combine a healthy respect for market forces with a strong commitment to antipoverty programs. Budgetary outlays for social purposes average around 27 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) in the Nordic countries and just 17 percent of GDP in the English-speaking countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_HayekFriedrich Von Hayek was wrong On average, the Nordic countries outperform the Anglo-Saxon ones on most measures of economic performance. Poverty rates are much lower there, and national income per working-age population is on average higher. Unemployment rates are roughly the same in both groups, just slightly higher in the Nordic
