Re: [Biofuel] The Case for the Electric Tractor
John Ferree wrote: For a veggie farm. . . . http://www.flyingbeet.com/electricg/ john Such a conversion could be suitable for the VI Case sitting here in the yard. But it isn't typical of the tractors used around here. Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Smashing Capitalism
But isn't sustained mass wealth leg a pipe dream? What do we need to to prevent that weak loose leg from, poking us in the butt, as the stool crashes to the floor? Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: to Biofuel List from Lewis L Smith I am old enough to remember with affection the pre-WW II Sears catalogue. M Weaver is right. Mr. Ford and Mr. Sears had it very clear in their heads that mass prosperity, mass production and mass distribution constitute a three-legged stool. You can have a healthy economy or an upright stool without all three legs. Cordially. ### ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Smashing Capitalism
All three are pipe dreams. Diffuse prosperity, small production, local distribution is the way. But the point about capitalism's inherent need to destroy its own foundation is valid.-D - Original Message From: Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, 30 August, 2007 9:02:20 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Smashing Capitalism But isn't sustained mass wealth leg a pipe dream? What do we need to to prevent that weak loose leg from, poking us in the butt, as the stool crashes to the floor? Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: to Biofuel List from Lewis L Smith I am old enough to remember with affection the pre-WW II Sears catalogue. M Weaver is right. Mr. Ford and Mr. Sears had it very clear in their heads that mass prosperity, mass production and mass distribution constitute a three-legged stool. You can have a healthy economy or an upright stool without all three legs. Cordially. ### ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now. http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20070830/5de194e7/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Case for the Electric Tractor
actually it would probably be a good fix for anything smaller than one of the little Mahindra/International type tractors as well. (older fords would be a good size fit, but i dont know what kind of attatchments are available.) From: Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Case for the Electric Tractor Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 01:21:21 -0500 John Ferree wrote: For a veggie farm. . . . http://www.flyingbeet.com/electricg/ john Such a conversion could be suitable for the VI Case sitting here in the yard. But it isn't typical of the tractors used around here. Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and moreĀ .then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theatercp=42.358996~-71.056691style=rlvl=13tilt=-90dir=0alt=-1000scene=950607encType=1FORM=MGAC01 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Smashing Capitalism
All three are pipe dreams. Diffuse prosperity, small production, local distribution is the way. Well said Dawie, that's the only way that's truly sustainable. True democracy cannot be worked by twenty men sitting at the centre, said Gandhi. It has to be worked from below, by the people of every village. True economics too. But for the powers-that-be... But the point about capitalism's inherent need to destroy its own foundation is valid.-D It's the growth bit that's the problem. If you let it, capitalism quickly wants to get too big for its boots and out-grow the diffuse prosperity, small production, local distribution mode. Economies of scale, they call it. Then the bottom-line mentality gets divorced from the local realities that tend to keep things in check. It's much harder to be ruthless when people know each other and are part of the same community where they grew up together, their kids go to school together and so on. Tvoivozhd, the wise old man of the Homestead list, put it very well as usual: Small-scale capitalism works out fine, but as scale increases the departure from real capitalism becomes more pronounced---profits are privatized, but costs are socialized. The attendant repair and maintenance are left to succeeding generations if possible, if not, to present low and middle income taxpayers. And it ends up owning everything, or thinking it does, and behaving as if it does too, everything including us. Then it turns into a blind monster that goes mad and destroys its own nest, along with everything it thinks it owns. Which looks like being the planet, at this rate. That's a lot more difficult than killing a mammoth, but the principle applies: How to kill a mammoth, from Roberto Verzola, secretary-general of the Philippine Greens: http://snipurl.com/pka5 [biofuel] Mammoth corporations As Kirk just said, The corporations such as Monsanto need to be dismantled. Barbara Ehrenreich mentions The Poverty Business, we've discussed that here before - it's not an accident, poverty creation isn't just an unfortunate side-effect of the wealth creation (extraction) business, it's an essential part of the process. She writes: But in the long term, a system that depends on extracting every last cent from the poor cannot hope for a healthy prognosis. http://snipurl.com/1q4ad Not sustainable, and I think the long term is just about up, it's the short term now. As far as Ford and Sears and so on are concerned, we're in the Post-post-Fordism era now, but it's going to need a little help. Ehrenreich says: Personally, I prefer my revolutions to be a little more pro-active. So do I. Best Keith - Original Message From: Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, 30 August, 2007 9:02:20 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Smashing Capitalism But isn't sustained mass wealth leg a pipe dream? What do we need to to prevent that weak loose leg from, poking us in the butt, as the stool crashes to the floor? Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: to Biofuel List from Lewis L Smith I am old enough to remember with affection the pre-WW II Sears catalogue. M Weaver is right. Mr. Ford and Mr. Sears had it very clear in their heads that mass prosperity, mass production and mass distribution constitute a three-legged stool. You can have a healthy economy or an upright stool without all three legs. Cordially. ### ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Smashing Capitalism
to Biofuel List from Lewis L Smith Me thinks that DC has overlooked economies of scale and mechanization. They are among the major sources of the huge productivity gains which characterize modern life and which on balance, have brought us so many benefits. As one who remembers animal-powered farm machinery, who has cut hay with a scythe and plowed with oxen, I would not go back. That world is all very picturesque and romantic to some, but it was very hard work for those who had to earn their living in it. Also I do not understand the phrase capitalism's inherent need to destroy its own foundations. There are many kinds of capitalism loose in the world and in particular, within China, which is an economic zoo. A prominent one in the USA is the private socialism of the big corporations which in no way resemble Adam Smith's owner-operated pin factory. Which one [ s ] do you all mean ? And how can any system develop an inherent need to destroy its own foundations ??? To morph into a perverse version of itself, quite possibly, but that is not the same thing. Cordially. ### ** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20070830/c2959c41/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Smashing Capitalism
to Biofuel List from Lewis L Smith My professional judgment is this Sustained mass wealth is probably unsustainable for environmental reasons, but a modest level of dignity and prosperity for a large percentage of the people is not, provided the population of the World can be stabilized. Cordially. ### ** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20070830/51b73415/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Smashing Capitalism
Hello Lewis to Biofuel List from Lewis L Smith My professional judgment is this Sustained mass wealth is probably unsustainable for environmental reasons, but a modest level of dignity and prosperity for a large percentage of the people is not, provided the population of the World can be stabilized. Please read this: http://snipurl.com/1q4cv Re: [] Overpopulation Off Limits? And check this (maybe more than just the first one this time): http://snipurl.com/1q4cw Biofuel - Overpopulation 114 matches The whole thread is linked at the end of each page. Overpopulation is a myth, quite an obnoxious one actually. Do some research instead of pushing myths about overpopulation. PLEASE USE THE LIST ARCHIVES! Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner Cordially. ### ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Smashing Capitalism
Hello again Lewis to Biofuel List from Lewis L Smith Me thinks that DC has overlooked economies of scale and mechanization. They are among the major sources of the huge productivity gains which characterize modern life and which on balance, have brought us so many benefits. Uh-huh? Us? Benefits? At whose expense? What Dawie hasn't overlooked, but you have, among other things, is that Fordist economies of scale and mechanization are anathema to sustainable biofuels production, and also to sustainable food production, and sustainable just-about-everything-else production too, as is now surely plain to see. That milieu is over. From the Journey to Forever website: Economies of scale might work in a factory, but on a farm it's just an illusion: agricultural economists now accept there's an inverse relationship between farm size and output. Small family and part-time farms are at least as efficient as larger commercial operations. There is evidence of diseconomies of scale as farm size increases. -- Are Large Farms More Efficient? Professor Willis L. Peterson, University of Minnesota, 1997. Abstract: http://ideas.repec.org/p/wop/minnas/9702.html Download (Acrobat file, 52kb): http://agecon.lib.umn.edu/mn/p97-02.pdf Studies all over the world confirm that, including in the US. Not only on farms. As one who remembers animal-powered farm machinery, who has cut hay with a scythe and plowed with oxen, I would not go back. That world is all very picturesque and romantic to some, but it was very hard work for those who had to earn their living in it. Why do you jump to the conclusion that Dawie's diffuse prosperity, small production, local distribution means going back to a pre-technological past? You sound a lot like Dieoff Jay Hanson, who reckons that come Peak Oil and the end of the endless stream of consumer durables that depend on cheap oil everybody's either going to have to just die or revert to Middle Ages feudalism and lives that are nasty, brutish and short - or rather that a couple of billion poor people in other countries will have to die so that Americans can go on consuming and wasting just like they do now. Hanson confuses the consumer society with Civilisation As We Know It (CAWKI), and it seems you do too. Have you not yet encountered Fritz Schumacher (Small Is Beautiful: Economics As If People Mattered) and Appropriate Technology? This isn't going back to the past, it's going forward. Also I do not understand the phrase capitalism's inherent need to destroy its own foundations. It seems clear - capitalism, particularly today's global corporatist version, is based on endless growth, which is the creed of the cancer cell. Your three-legged stool analogy doesn't even mention growth, but that's the ground the stool is standing on. Not very firm ground when what it boils down to is the endlessly increasing extraction of finite resources. From previous exchange with you: Exxon and other optimists. So much for the economic theorists who assert that demand always calls forth the requisite supply ! It wouldn't help a lot if there were a sudden worldwide demand for dodos would it. Aren't you falling for the same delusion you've just been jeering at? There are many kinds of capitalism loose in the world and in particular, within China, which is an economic zoo. A prominent one in the USA is the private socialism of the big corporations which in no way resemble Adam Smith's owner-operated pin factory. Which one [ s ] do you all mean ? Please see: http://snipurl.com/ti5i Re: [biofuel] The Wealth of Nature 5 May 2004 And how can any system develop an inherent need to destroy its own foundations ??? To morph into a perverse version of itself, quite possibly, but that is not the same thing. See above re cancer. Best Keith Cordially. ### Previous message: All three are pipe dreams. Diffuse prosperity, small production, local distribution is the way. But the point about capitalism's inherent need to destroy its own foundation is valid.-D - Original Message From: Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, 30 August, 2007 9:02:20 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Smashing Capitalism But isn't sustained mass wealth leg a pipe dream? What do we need to to prevent that weak loose leg from, poking us in the butt, as the stool crashes to the floor? Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: to Biofuel List from Lewis L Smith I am old enough to remember with affection the pre-WW II Sears catalogue. M Weaver is right. Mr. Ford and Mr. Sears had it very clear in their heads that mass prosperity, mass production and mass distribution constitute a three-legged stool. You can have a healthy economy or an upright stool without all three legs. Cordially. ### ___
Re: [Biofuel] Smashing Capitalism
any scheme in which the means of production is not owned or controlled either collectively or by those who perform the production, could be defined as capitalism. however, other conditions are assumed to exist, such a complex monetary system and (especially) corporatization. smith's capitalism is a utopian myth, IMO, in the sense that his examples either never existed or never prevailed against the ouroborus. or they morphed, by necessity, into the latter. capitalism never has enough. it always needs more. ever increasingly more at an ever increasing pace. On 8/30/07, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello again Lewis to Biofuel List from Lewis L Smith Me thinks that DC has overlooked economies of scale and mechanization. They are among the major sources of the huge productivity gains which characterize modern life and which on balance, have brought us so many benefits. Uh-huh? Us? Benefits? At whose expense? What Dawie hasn't overlooked, but you have, among other things, is that Fordist economies of scale and mechanization are anathema to sustainable biofuels production, and also to sustainable food production, and sustainable just-about-everything-else production too, as is now surely plain to see. That milieu is over. From the Journey to Forever website: Economies of scale might work in a factory, but on a farm it's just an illusion: agricultural economists now accept there's an inverse relationship between farm size and output. Small family and part-time farms are at least as efficient as larger commercial operations. There is evidence of diseconomies of scale as farm size increases. -- Are Large Farms More Efficient? Professor Willis L. Peterson, University of Minnesota, 1997. Abstract: http://ideas.repec.org/p/wop/minnas/9702.html Download (Acrobat file, 52kb): http://agecon.lib.umn.edu/mn/p97-02.pdf Studies all over the world confirm that, including in the US. Not only on farms. As one who remembers animal-powered farm machinery, who has cut hay with a scythe and plowed with oxen, I would not go back. That world is all very picturesque and romantic to some, but it was very hard work for those who had to earn their living in it. Why do you jump to the conclusion that Dawie's diffuse prosperity, small production, local distribution means going back to a pre-technological past? You sound a lot like Dieoff Jay Hanson, who reckons that come Peak Oil and the end of the endless stream of consumer durables that depend on cheap oil everybody's either going to have to just die or revert to Middle Ages feudalism and lives that are nasty, brutish and short - or rather that a couple of billion poor people in other countries will have to die so that Americans can go on consuming and wasting just like they do now. Hanson confuses the consumer society with Civilisation As We Know It (CAWKI), and it seems you do too. Have you not yet encountered Fritz Schumacher (Small Is Beautiful: Economics As If People Mattered) and Appropriate Technology? This isn't going back to the past, it's going forward. Also I do not understand the phrase capitalism's inherent need to destroy its own foundations. It seems clear - capitalism, particularly today's global corporatist version, is based on endless growth, which is the creed of the cancer cell. Your three-legged stool analogy doesn't even mention growth, but that's the ground the stool is standing on. Not very firm ground when what it boils down to is the endlessly increasing extraction of finite resources. From previous exchange with you: Exxon and other optimists. So much for the economic theorists who assert that demand always calls forth the requisite supply ! It wouldn't help a lot if there were a sudden worldwide demand for dodos would it. Aren't you falling for the same delusion you've just been jeering at? There are many kinds of capitalism loose in the world and in particular, within China, which is an economic zoo. A prominent one in the USA is the private socialism of the big corporations which in no way resemble Adam Smith's owner-operated pin factory. Which one [ s ] do you all mean ? Please see: http://snipurl.com/ti5i Re: [biofuel] The Wealth of Nature 5 May 2004 And how can any system develop an inherent need to destroy its own foundations ??? To morph into a perverse version of itself, quite possibly, but that is not the same thing. See above re cancer. Best Keith Cordially. ### Previous message: All three are pipe dreams. Diffuse prosperity, small production, local distribution is the way. But the point about capitalism's inherent need to destroy its own foundation is valid.-D - Original Message From: Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, 30 August, 2007 9:02:20 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Smashing Capitalism
Re: [Biofuel] Smashing Capitalism
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Re: [Biofuel] raw milk controversy in the US
Google milk somatic cell count -Milk is basically cooked pus in the US. Quoting Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You will not see raw milk permitted because it would mean Monsanto would be out of business re the hormone injection for increasing milk production. The cows that receive that abomination are constantly being treated for mastitis and subclinical cases get milked and infected pus goes into the milking machine. It is cruel to use that substance, it burns the cows out as well. Commercial dairys are concrete floors and you wear rubber boots because they are covered with feces and urine. They are cleaned daily but when you have thousands of cows it is a steady stream. We have a Jersey and we drink raw milk and make our own ice cream, butter, cheese and so on. Our cow gets grain at milking time and is on green grass. We have zero mastitis. The corporations such as Monsanto need to be dismantled. Kirk - Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20070829/a5bf5025/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Smashing Capitalism
IMO it's because that large percentage has been lead to believe that personal empires that will be inherited by their children, is a birthright, that large majority will not accept modest. I'm not so sure where that leaves the minority? [shrug] Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: to Biofuel List from Lewis L Smith My professional judgment is this Sustained mass wealth is probably unsustainable for environmental reasons, but a modest level of dignity and prosperity for a large percentage of the people is not, provided the population of the World can be stabilized. Cordially. ### ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
