Re: [Biofuel] Propane - ABio fuel?
Not to cause a problem, but, most of the time, the fuel bought at stores is Propane ( sometimes MAPP gas or even Butane ) not NG.NG requires special handling procedures and compressors, that are not common except at NG terminals ( this is part of why NG powered cars are few and far between ). I worked security for several years at NG shaving operation, where they mixed propane with enough air, to bring it down to the same BTU values as NG, so it could be used in NG appliances.If they didn't do this, the orifice would have to be changed to one with a smaller opening.If propane was not mixed with air and the orifice was not one that had a smaller opening the pilot light in your stove or furnace would be close to 6 inches long ( instead of half an inch or so ), and you would burn out your stove. Now, if you lower the pressure of the propane going to the appliance, you can achieve much the same effect. The whole idea, is to deliver the same amount of BTU's to the burn area just outside of the orifice, over the same amount of time. BioMethane generally has to be scrubbed of CO2 and H2S, before it is useable in any great amount, but, once the H2S and CO2 have been removed, BioMethane can be used just like NG ( at lower pressure unless you use a compressor to raise the pressure ). Greg H. - Original Message - From: Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 07:30 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Propane - ABio fuel? Greetings, Bio methane and propane use the same orifice, store bought natural gas uses a different one. The pressure of the system and the regulator are also different. Bright Blessings, Kim At 08:16 AM 7/21/2005, you wrote: So now I'm confused. Is the orifice for methane the same as natural gas or the same as propane. It looks like claims have been made for both cases here/ Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, This is correct. Appliances come in either natural gas or propane models and the orifice is part of the reason. The other reason is the pressure requirements for the regulators. The appliances can be changed to burn the other fuel, if you make the change in the orifice and regulator. Bright Blessings, Kim At 07:54 AM 7/21/2005, you wrote: Um, wait a minute here, natural gas is methane, and there is a difference between an orifice for natural gas (methane) and one for propane. Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, If you talk to a reputable gas man, the orifice for methane is the same one used for propane, not Natural gas. Also, the pressure of the gas through the regulator is the same for propane and methane, but natural gas is different again. To use homemade methane, use propane appliances not natural gas. Bright Blessings, Kim At 04:59 PM 7/20/2005, you wrote: Natural Gas = methane + Odorant; Bio methane just methane + some CO2 and impurities from the decomposition process. So any NG appliance will run on Bio Decomposed methane. Its just that is very difficult to liquefy NG (-200C like temps). M -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Morris Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 2:11 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Propane - ABio fuel? As I understand it, methane (which can be produced from rotting waste) can be burned in most propane appliances with the appropriate slight modifications. Is propane a Bio fuel, can it be created from bio sources? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.o r g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.o rg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [Biofuel] Harnessing hurricane/tornado power
Perhaps, but, what path will a hurricane follow? Not even NOAA, can guess more than 10 minutes out with any major degree of accuracy.For that matter, anything more than about an hour, has a very large margin of error, and even then the hurricane can still do something unexpected. Greg H. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 12:20 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Harnessing hurricane/tornado power Anyway as another pointed out hurricanes and tornadoes events are so brief and unpredictable to seriously consider them as a power source. tornadoes certainly are unpredictable, but hurricanes follow a much more regular pattern; they last around 10 days (a little less?) from beginning to end, and hurricane season lasts several months. a lot of energy could be captured (from tornadoes, too--or the severe weather that accompanies them) with appropriately designed turbines. Kinda fun to consider the consider the possibilities, though. that's exactly right! -chris ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Harnessing hurricane/tornado power
Hurricanes and tornadoes are much to random / erratic to even consider using for power. Greg H. - Original Message - From: r [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 13:31 Subject: [Biofuel] Harnessing hurricane/tornado power Would it be possible to harness power from hurricanes or tornadoes? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Homemade Shredder was: Compost Update
Keith, I have been trying the link below, and all I get is an 'Error 404' message. Is it a good link? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 10:05 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Homemade Shredder was: Compost Update http://solstice.crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Deutsch/shredders.html LOW COST SHREDDERS IN CAMBODIA ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Homemade Shredder was: Compost Update
That one work's. Thanks, Greg H. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 11:01 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Homemade Shredder was: Compost Update Ump... Twice in a row. Do you know what a Web archives is? Maybe you need a Mac for that. Anyway, when you click on them they connect, or seem to, you forget it's an archived url. Solstice changed to REPP. http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Deutsch/shredders.html LOW COST SHREDDERS IN CAMBODIA Apologies. Best Keith Greg H. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 10:05 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Homemade Shredder was: Compost Update http://solstice.crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Deutsch/s hredders.html LOW COST SHREDDERS IN CAMBODIA ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] emissions
No. The same amount of CO2, is used by the oil producing plants, as they grow. Greg H. - Original Message - From: john owens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 19:13 Subject: [Biofuel] emissions here's a tought What will happen if the majority of the waste vegtable oil in the world is being used for biodiesel which isnt curently being burned and is absorbing some of the co2 being produced by mineral diesel and production and mineral oil consumption growes. Will this not cause an increase in co2 in atmospher! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] re property taking supreme court
Private companies / corporations exercising eminent domain is not really anything new. Here in Colorado, we are learning about it, the hard way. There has been a law on the books, since shortly after Colorado became a state, that has allowed private companies / corporations, to exercise eminent domain, for the public good, in the case of developing rail roads and utility easements. Now a company is wanting to developed a 6 lane toll hwy ( Super Slab ), running from south of Pueblo to north of Denver, in theory this toll hwy will also include utility easement and a rail road right of way. Wait - it gets better. This hwy corridor will also include a 1 mile wide buffer strip to either side of the hwy. railroad tracks. Hold it, there is more. The theory goes is that that the hwy and rail road is supposed to ease 1-25 congestion up and down the front range, but, if E-470 in Denver is any clue, then the only people who will drive it, are the people that are in a hurry. That isn't all. There is no easy way to get to the proposed hyw ( or rail road ) from Colorado Springs and Pueblo, so they would need to build more roads to achieve access.Roads that are not planned under the current construction plans ( do I hear the forewarning of more eminent domain issues? ). Oh, yea, one more thing. The land that they are proposing to use is small family ranches and small housing developments.The project was approved some 20-30 yrs or so ago, but, the public has not heard anything about it, until about 6 months or so ago. Colorado Statutes : TITLE 38 PROPERTY - REAL AND PERSONAL : EMINENT DOMAIN : ARTICLE 2 SPECIFIC GRANTS OF POWER : 38-2-101. Who may condemn real estate, rights-of-way, or other rights. 38-2-101. Who may condemn real estate, rights-of-way, or other rights. Statute text If any corporation formed for the purpose of constructing a road, ditch, reservoir, pipeline, bridge, ferry, tunnel, telegraph line, railroad line, electric line, electric plant, telephone line, or telephone plant is unable to agree with the owner for the purchase of any real estate or right-of-way or easement or other right necessary or required for the purpose of any such corporation for transacting its business or for any lawful purpose connected with the operations of the company, such corporation may acquire title to such real estate or right-of-way or easement or other right in the manner provided by law for the condemnation of real estate or right-of-way. Any ditch, reservoir, or pipeline company, in the same manner, may condemn and acquire the right to take and use any water not previously appropriated. Greg H. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 21:02 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] re property taking supreme court What's interesting about this one is that the Texas legislature passed a bill allowing the private corporation that owned the Rangers to exercise eminent domain, normally a power reserved for public entities. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Napier Deltic Engines
Today while researching PT boats of WW2 and their younger cousins, thePTF's of the 1960's, I came across a engine called the Napier Deltic. I was very intrigued with the idea of a high speed 2 cycle diesel, that used opposed pistons. http://www.ptfnasty.com/ptfDeltic.html http://www.ptfnasty.com/ptfdelticoperation.htm http://www.intertrader.net/ptfdeltic.htm IfI understand correctly, they may be a bit more efficient than standard diesels, but, because they were so unorthodox they are somewhat obscure. Does anyone have any knowledge of, or first hand experience with these engines? Greg H. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel tank specs.
I guess that it might also depend on the business, and the contents.I know of one place that keeps it's kerosene in multiple 55 gal drums. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Gene Rotter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 09:14 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Biodiesel tank specs. Greg, In the US... Above ground fuel storage tanks have specific requirements to meet depending on the local jurisdiction mandates. Filling a vehicle from an above ground tank, at least in most of the US, requires this gas or diesel tank to be UL2085 listed (be fire rated and impact resistant). These guidelines or regulations are relaxed for rural situations (farms). One may get away with a tote at home, again check local codes as may be able to store a max of XX gallons. A business getting checked by a fire department for safety will get in trouble quickly. Essentially the fire department wants to know if there is a LARGE potential ignition source before they get hurt fighting a fire. Adequate signage and building to tank separation is a must so the fire fighters and occupants are not needlessly in danger. Gene -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Greg Harbican Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 7:24 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel tank specs. Use a couple of 275 gal IBC tote tanks.As seen here ( near the bottom of the page ): http://www.longnow.org/rhino/BioDiesel.htm They are cheep, and you can station them at different places to fuel 2 vehicles at the same time. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Chuck Elsholz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 06:47 Subject: [Biofuel] Biodiesel tank specs. Hello, Are the specifications on fuel containers the same for diesel and biodiesel? We are having a 500 gal. tank built outside of our business to fuel our fleet. Any suggestions? Thanks Chuck ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel tank specs.
Use a couple of 275 gal IBC tote tanks.As seen here ( near the bottom of the page ): http://www.longnow.org/rhino/BioDiesel.htm They are cheep, and you can station them at different places to fuel 2 vehicles at the same time. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Chuck Elsholz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 06:47 Subject: [Biofuel] Biodiesel tank specs. Hello, Are the specifications on fuel containers the same for diesel and biodiesel? We are having a 500 gal. tank built outside of our business to fuel our fleet. Any suggestions? Thanks Chuck ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang
I believe allot of the problems surrounding this issue, comes from Articles 4 and 5 of the Geneva Convention. @@ http://www.pchrgaza.org/Intifada/Protected_pers.conv.htm Art. 4. Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals. Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention are not protected by it. Nationals of a neutral State who find themselves in the territory of a belligerent State, and nationals of a co-belligerent State, shall not be regarded as protected persons while the State of which they are nationals has normal diplomatic representation in the State in whose hands they are. The provisions of Part II are, however, wider in application, as defined in Article 13. Persons protected by the Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field of 12 August 1949, or by the Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked Members of Armed Forces at Sea of 12 August 1949, or by the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War of 12 August 1949, shall not be considered as protected persons within the meaning of the present Convention. Art. 5. Where in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State. Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention. In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention. They shall also be granted the full rights and privileges of a protected person under the present Convention at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State or Occupying Power, as the case may be. @@ Basically a lawful combatant - those that follow the general customs of war are going to be accorded protections of the Geneva Convention @@ http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Lawful-combatant Under the Geneva Conventions, persons waging war must have the following four characteristics to be protected by the laws of war: 1)In uniform: Wear distinctive clothing making them recognizable as soldiers from a distance. 2)Openly bearing arms: Carrying guns or small arms and not concealing them. 3)Under officers: Obedient to a chain of command ending in a political leader or government. 4)Fighting according to the laws of war: Not committing atrocities or crimes, not deliberately attacking civilians or engaging in terrorism. http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Illegal-combatant Illegal combatant Other descriptions of Illegal combatant Unlawful combatant (also illegal combatant or unprivileged combatant) describes a person who engages in combat without meeting the requirements for a lawful belligerent according to the laws of war as specified in the Third Geneva Convention. Countries that identify such unlawful combatants may not necessarily accord them the rights of prisoners of war described in the Third Geneva Convention, though they retain rights under the Fourth Geneva Convention in that they must be treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial. The term has been around for at least 100 years and has been used in legal literature, military manuals and case law. It was introduced into US domestic law in 1942 by a United States Supreme Court decision in the case ex parte Quirin (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=usvol=317invol=1). In this case, the Supreme Court upheld the jurisdiction of a U.S. military tribunal over the trial of several German saboteurs in the US. This decision states (emphasis added and footnotes removed): ...the law of war draws a distinction between the armed forces and the peaceful populations of belligerent nations and also between those who are lawful and unlawful combatants. Lawful combatants are subject to capture and detention as prisoners of war by opposing military forces. Unlawful combatants are likewise subject to capture and detention, but in addition they are subject to trial and punishment by military
Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang
I guess your just assuming that, because, I don't agree with your assessment. Like I said before, It does not seam to be anymore than the white washing that was done several years ago, just more along the lines of a few recruiters, being more extreme. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 10:52 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang Greg, The military does far more than just push the fun exciting stuff... to net recruits. I guess you didn't read the references that were provided previously and didn't do any searching beyond them on your own? So is that high-gloss varnish or semi-gloss that you're using there? And are you sure you've got enough ventilation in that room? Todd Swearingen ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang
Excuse me? You want to play the not fair game? How about: "It's not fair thathundreds ofpeople dies inthe terrorists attacks"? "It's not fair that hundreds of children die every year malnutrition"? "It's not fair that my son and daughter never had the chance to meet my parents"? It's not fair: I'm 50% medical. People go to bed hungry. People don't read the fine print on the contract they sign. The courts are overburdened with frivolous law suits. Many people try and still fail. Some people thought that the US military would always be on a peace time setting. Thatpeople are human and make mistakes and decisionsthat affect others. It's not fair that my wife obtained 3 credit cards ( and maxed them out ), without my knowing it, but, you know what? I still have to live up to the obligation, and have one of them almost paid off. It's not fair, that I have to sit around and hear people complain that," It's not fair that I have to live up to a contract,even though I didn't think we would ever go to war and I chose the wrong job to be in " Sorry I forgot, It's not fair that life is not fair. Shall I go on? Who ever said the world / life was fair or that it was supposed to be? I would like to know so I could tell him/her that it wasn't fair for them to say that. Don't give me "it's not fair". They didn't have to go in the military or pick the branch orMOS that they went in. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Michael Redler To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 10:55 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang "...when they are told that they can not get out when the going gets rough, they cry"Not fair!" How about... ...when they are told that they can not get out when the president: 1.) abuses the war powers act 2.) provokes attacksto manufacture an excuse for war months before any security council resolution is drafted 3.) Bribes a "coalition of the willing" when most of the free world isn't fooled 4.)Coerces government agencies to manufacture evidence to justify an illegal war 5.) Limits inspectors (mostly chemical weapons inspectors) from entering Iraq and works toward the dismissal of the most vocal analysts reporting that there are noWMD's and you realize that your purpose in the militaryhas changed from that of defender, to that ofconqueror. ...they cry"Not fair!" Mike Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, up till 9/11 most people entered the military for one of two reasons. The first and most popular reason is Education. They think that it will be an easy way the get an education, without having to work hard to get a scholarship or the need for a loan. The second reason, is that they want money forsomething and they currently don't haveenough. I have heard some of their complaints, and almost always it's along the lines of " When I signed up almost ___ yrs ago, there wasn't any war. I did it because I wanted to get'an education'or 'the education benefit's or 'to get a job and skills for a job when I get out', not to kill people or get killed". Many of themthink that they are using the military, for their own purposes/benefit, but, then when they are told that they can not get out when the going gets rough, they cry"Not fair!" The facts are: *The militaryis just like any other company trying to get you to join, in that it is going to push the fun exciting stuff, while under emphasizing the bad. *Anyone that thinks they can join the military and be subject to the possibility of being killed or having to kill, is living a dream that has no connection to reality. *Anyone that thinks thatthe military can't or will not alter their terms of enlistment in a time of crisis isdreaming. *Anyone that does not read the fine print on any contractbefore theysign, is a fool. *All it takes issome checking, to find out what being in the military is really like. There are to many people in (and now out )of the military to say what it was like. Any person, in anyjob,that think that they can take the good and leave the bad, has another think coming. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Michael Redler To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 12:44 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang "To enter military service and then say, I dont want to go there! orI don't want to do th
Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang
Todd, Interesting. It does not seam to be anymore than the white washing that was done several years ago, just more along the lines of a few recruiters, being more extreme. OTOH, I didn't hear of any reciting problems while I was in the service. I was a bit of a problem for my recruiter, having been stupid when I was younger I had 1 mistermeaner to my record, but, between the recruiter and my self, we filled out the necessary paperwork, and it went through the proper channels. Of the few issues I heard about, it wasn't the recruiters fault. One was a rare form of color blindness, that the MD's at the processing station didn't pick up. The other was where the Army sent the recruit after the in-processing, ***after the recruiter made the promise of the MOS the recruit was to enter***.It turned out the recruit had everything in writing and proper forms, but, someone doing the processing decided to send him someplace else. Well it wasn't until some 2 months after the end of basic training that the army decided that neither the recruiter nor the recite was at fault, but once basic training was over they had to do something with him, so they made him the battalion gofer. Because the recruit had the proper forms and the MOS guarantee from the recruiter, the military gave him a few choices: 1)Stay in the current MOS that he was assigned to ( it would be treated as a re-up with bonuses that would bring - in addition to the bonuses from enlisting in the first place ). 2)Wait up to 6 months for a open slot in the MOS that he was guaranteed in the first place. 3)Allowed to leave the service as if he had finished his enlistment in a satisfactory manor. He decided on #1 and said it was the best 6 years he had. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 11:41 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang Greg, could you elaborate on deceptive, predatory and intimidating? Are you seeking dictionary definitions or a contextual one relative to recruiting tactics? You've never been present on a college campus with a ROTC contingent or had a family member who once aspired to be a Marine recruiter? Both are quite memorable experiences. Did you miss the paltry one day stand-down for Army recruiters on May 20 this year (only two weeks ago) to re-evaluate their recruiting practices? The liberal press boiled with stories on that one for a few days. Not that anything's changed now that they've moved on. Based upon your personal military experience(s) and opinions relative to most things military as you've expressed them on-list, I'm more more inclined to let you take a look at other sources beyond my own disposition or experience(s) on the matter. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4648540 http://www.polytechnic.org/faculty/gfeldmeth/recruiter.html And that's just a few of the recent documented cases. And then there's always the re-up tactics http://ventura.fordean.org/ventura/blog/2004/09/new-army-recruiting-tactics-revealed.html Surely you're not ready to go round-robin on this one are you Greg? Many of the practices of recruitment are not only legend, but vividly and insultingly real. Don't get me wrong. I don't have a problem with someone joining any branch of service. The only problem I have is with those who manipulate others. About the only tactic that military recruiters haven't tried (at least physically, to my knowledge) is the impressment of citizens into service. But that doesn't mean that impressment is not a tactic at levels other than physical (see the re-up link above). Todd Swearingen Greg Harbican wrote: Todd, could you elaborate on deceptive, predatory and intimidating ? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 09:31 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang Larry, Military recruitment/recruiters are as much a part of the problem as are the policy makers. All one has to do is look at the deceptive, predatory and intimidating practices of recruitment to gain insight as to the manipulative mentality that must be well guarded against in all ranks/levels of a theoretically free society. Until recruitment practices across the board are void of manipulation, they are as much fair game for protest as is anyone or any segment of any institution that also manipulates, preys upon and deceives a nation's citizenry. Let those who wish to serve enter into service under no illusions, not under fog of promise or incomplete and/or inaccurate premise(s). Todd Swearingen ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang
No, up till 9/11 most people entered the military for one of two reasons. The first and most popular reason is Education. They think that it will be an easy way the get an education, without having to work hard to get a scholarship or the need for a loan. The second reason, is that they want money forsomething and they currently don't haveenough. I have heard some of their complaints, and almost always it's along the lines of " When I signed up almost ___ yrs ago, there wasn't any war. I did it because I wanted to get'an education'or 'the education benefit's or 'to get a job and skills for a job when I get out', not to kill people or get killed". Many of themthink that they are using the military, for their own purposes/benefit, but, then when they are told that they can not get out when the going gets rough, they cry"Not fair!" The facts are: *The militaryis just like any other company trying to get you to join, in that it is going to push the fun exciting stuff, while under emphasizing the bad. *Anyone that thinks they can join the military and be subject to the possibility of being killed or having to kill, is living a dream that has no connection to reality. *Anyone that thinks thatthe military can't or will not alter their terms of enlistment in a time of crisis isdreaming. *Anyone that does not read the fine print on any contractbefore theysign, is a fool. *All it takes issome checking, to find out what being in the military is really like. There are to many people in (and now out )of the military to say what it was like. Any person, in anyjob,that think that they can take the good and leave the bad, has another think coming. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Michael Redler To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 12:44 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang "To enter military service and then say, I dont want to go there! orI don't want to do that! is simply childish selfcenterdness (sp)." Well Larry, if that were true, we would have an increasing number of "self centered objectors" instead of conscientious objectors. Most people who join the military, do so with a belief (faith) that their commander-in-chief will make the right decisions. When they don't, it is no exaggeration to look at it as a breach of contract. You have every right to object to improper use of the military (that would be YOU, if you are a soldier) due to the fact that your government did not work with you in good faith. Conscientious objectors are oftenexamples of fearless objectivity and heroism. They seewar during their time asa divisive instrument of policy and not a mechanism for self defense. Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang
It's true, if you have the qualification for it and get a MOS guarantee. It's simple you get the guarantee and you read the fine print, before you sign on the dotted line. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Hans Reuchlin To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 14:15 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang "Hey, you too can join the Army, and become a musician...", and other lies that recruitement officers are resorting to in order to fill the quotas.. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang
Check out the UCMJ ( Uniform Code of Military Justice ). Then follow that up with Geneva Convention and Hague Convention, and that will give you a good idea of what illegal is to the military. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Michael Redler To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 14:22 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang Robert, This IMHO, this is another simplification. Aside from refusing to obey an illegal order, can you think of any exceptions?What's illegal? Mike robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Redler wrote: Robert, "...he or she becomes the property of the military and the commanders will do with every soldier whatever they deem necessary. " Point taken. But I think it's a bit oversimplified.Is it really? Can an army function without discipline? When the lieutenant says: "We have orders to secure that hilltop and neutralize enemy resistance," does an enlisted soldier have the right to disagree?My wife has a young cousin who joined the Marines a few years ago. Much to his dismay, and his family's distress, the Marine Corps sent him to Fallujah. He tells us that he didn't want to go there. He speaks of the situation being horrible and of his life being in constant danger. But he couldn't say: "No thanks. I'd rather serve in Guam." Do you mean to say that you (as property of the US armed services) would do "WHATEVER" your superior deemed necessary? That's quite a broad statement.Aside from refusing to obey an illegal order, can you think of any exceptions?robert luis rabello"The Edge of Justice"Adventure for Your Mindhttp://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782Ranger Supercharger Project Pagehttp://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang
Todd, could you elaborate on deceptive, predatory and intimidating ? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 09:31 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang Larry, Military recruitment/recruiters are as much a part of the problem as are the policy makers. All one has to do is look at the deceptive, predatory and intimidating practices of recruitment to gain insight as to the manipulative mentality that must be well guarded against in all ranks/levels of a theoretically free society. Until recruitment practices across the board are void of manipulation, they are as much fair game for protest as is anyone or any segment of any institution that also manipulates, preys upon and deceives a nation's citizenry. Let those who wish to serve enter into service under no illusions, not under fog of promise or incomplete and/or inaccurate premise(s). Todd Swearingen ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Stir vs Pump Processing
Now I'm not sure about the differences between clear water pumps and trash pumps, but, for mixing purposes, wouldn't a trash / sludge pump that grinds up any soft solids, do a better job at mixing, due to the 'grinding' / shearing / action? Greg H. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Hemp oil
5 to 20 years with time off for good behavior?;-) Greg H. - Original Message - From: JanWarnqvist [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 01:28 Subject: [Biofuel] Hemp oil Hwllo everybody. Does anybody know of a good average iodine number for hemp oil ? AGERATEC AB Jan Warnqvist ___ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place
That is entirely correct. It's a feel good solution. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 11:48 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place Hi Greg, You are right. When one starts thinking about their idea a bit more in depth, it sounds kind of silly. Maybe they hope to market it to people who want to see themselves as environmentally responsable while still being able to drive their gas hogs regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place
What is you basis for the comment? What we want to know, is what proof do you have for making it?We want to know, because it sounds like something out of 'Alice in Wonderland' Greg H. - Original Message - From: JD2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 00:38 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place Hi Bob; There's not anything much more to add only that they were putting mildly radioactive material in washing powder to make the laundry dry more quickly.:-) JD2005 - Original Message - From: bob allen whoa doggies, could you elaborate on this a little? JD2005 wrote: I do not agree with the utilisation of water to get wasser stoff (hydrogen) but it is possible to dissociate water with radioactive material such as they are putting in washing power these days to make laundry dry more quickly. JD2005 - Original Message - From: bob allen I guess if you ran the electrolysis device in your living room to recover the lost heat, but still there have to be better ways to provide space heat. It would be just as efficient and a lot cheaper to run a bare nichrome wire for heat. Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: I would think that you could power the electrolizer with PV or a wind generator regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 21:01:21 If your electrolyzer is 50% efficient then half the power is lost. I guess they are thinking they can make hydrogen in the daytime and burn it at night. A battery and a heatpump would be enormously more efficient. Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:OK, I did some poking around and had a little trouble finding a Watt-hr/BTU value for hydrogen production using electrolysis. Does anyone have a link with some stats? Mike Kirk McLoren wrote: Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves Richard Feynman --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place
You still run into H2 storage issues. You would have to spend days making H2 just to run the fireplace for a few of hrs. Why bother? It is more efficient to use the energy in another manor. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 19:12 Subject: [Biofuel] Re: hydrogen fire place I would think that you could power the electrolizer with PV or a wind generator regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 21:01:21 If your electrolyzer is 50% efficient then half the power is lost. I guess they are thinking they can make hydrogen in the daytime and burn it at night. A battery and a heatpump would be enormously more efficient. Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:OK, I did some poking around and had a little trouble finding a Watt-hr/BTU value for hydrogen production using electrolysis. Does anyone have a link with some stats? Mike Kirk McLoren wrote: Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ---Original Message--- ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place
And how much more energy is going to be wasted, generating all the necessary H2? What a joke. If anyone want to buy the fireplace, I want to know, I have a bridge to sell them, in San Francisco CA. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 03:02 Subject: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Which Oil is Best
This is just way to much to contemplate, first thing in the morning. I don't drink, but, this might drive me to it. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 05:29 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Which Oil is Best Dear pros, Latitudinal or longitudinally? Latitudinal, but much more important IMNSHO is that the traditional anticlockwisist approach be adopted. We do not want any of this revisionist hegemonistic running-dog pinko neocon fundamentalist pro-clockwisist nonsense here, thankyou. And I really hope we're not going to see any more crass attempts by Northist Confusionism elements to propose that from West to East is anticlockwise. A few nay-sayers and denialists aside (and we all know who pays their bills), all serious scientists concur that the North is not on top, the South is. That's why Australia is commonly referred to as Up-over, and so on. And therefore, East to West is anticlockwise, and let's have no further argument about it, we of the Global South aren't dumb you know, we're alive to these sinister conspiracies, and *we* know that the centrifugal momentum of human-caused mass-pro-clockwisism is causing the world to spin faster, swelling the equatorial bulge, with really gross effects on the climate we all have to share, especially us. Longitudinality is at least spin-neutral, but it doesn't help either, longitudinal circumnavigators are just fence-sitters. Best wishes Keith Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - From: pros [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Which Oil is Best Hello Chris and Frans and other listeners , My question is a little bit different ; If you would make a trip around the world and seasons in each country ; what are the chances for the whole year available ' fresh ' oils which countries should you go and which time of the year ( I assume always 'fresh' crop ) .Eg if you start in Europe - in June for rapeseed oil where would you go and when for palm oil or is there a chance to get one kind of oil in different continents all time from fresh crop ? Julian , Poland Hello Frans, Palm oil is great for biodiesel. I guess it depends which 'we' you are talking about. The 'we' that are in Brazil and other southern areas use palm oil; the 'we' that lives in US use soy oil because that is what we grow here. This time the 'we' is ADM I am afraid. In Europe, the 'we' have access to rapeseed, because that is what is grown there. The use of pronouns is so interesting in an international list such as this one. As always, the answer is on a table on the JTF website. Hope that helps. The esteemed Frans van Dortmont wrote: On the discussion which oil is best; Why do we use so much soy oil rape seed oil instead of palmoil. Everywhere is see that palmoil is best efficient way to produce oil. Is it not good for making biodiesel? Chris K Cayce, SC ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place
Nah It's a buy at $1,000,000 US. Just think of the money you can raise by charging $5.00 for each car.At 1000 vehicles ( minimum ) a day, that is over $1,800,000 a year. Like my friend says, I don't want to rule the world. I just want to collect the rent on it! Greg H. - Original Message - From: Frantz DESPREZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 09:21 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Greg Harbican a ÂŽcrit : (...) If anyone want to buy the fireplace, I want to know, I have a bridge to sell them, in San Francisco CA. the golden one ? must be expensive ! FD ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Which Oil is Best
Perhaps just drinking some OJ, deleting the message, and going back to bed for a few more hours would work as well.LOL Greg H. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 09:48 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Which Oil is Best This is just way to much to contemplate, first thing in the morning. I don't drink, but, this might drive me to it. Greg H. Um, yes, well, sorry. Try coffee (best to stir it anticlockwise). I think I was just cavilling at the prospect of having to debunk John Nicholson (biopower), not exactly difficult, but I'll probably break out in carbuncles or something. Won't someone else do it? Please? Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Diesel moped car...2 things!
Actualy I think that most Americans, want to drive a tank ( I can tell you, that 62 tons of steel doing 45 cross country is real fun, having done it for a part of my life ) Greg H. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 12:54 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Diesel moped car...2 things! I think that the American dream is to have a boat, not a car. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Diesel moped car...2 things!
Personally, I think it would be real fun to drive one into downtown LA, just to frustrate all the tail gaters... ..besides they are BioDiesel compatible. LOL Greg H. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 18:09 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Diesel moped car...2 things! Greg, I think that you are right, it is no place on earth with so many toys for adults. LOL Hakan ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Diesel moped car...2 things!
65mph? With or without the governor? Greg H. - Original Message - From: J.L.Burney [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 19:09 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Diesel moped car...2 things! i was a tanker too. the new ones are 71 tons and can hit speeds of 65 cross country now. you are right though its more fun that 4 people should be allowed to have. - Original Message - From: Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Diesel moped car...2 things! Actualy I think that most Americans, want to drive a tank ( I can tell you, that 62 tons of steel doing 45 cross country is real fun, having done it for a part of my life ) Greg H. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 12:54 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Diesel moped car...2 things! I think that the American dream is to have a boat, not a car. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Diesel moped car...2 things!
I was going to say, that without it, we could do the same thing. Only problem was, ours were inspected every so often to make sure that they were still intact. Greg H. - Original Message - From: J.L.Burney [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 08:41 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Diesel moped car...2 things! i believe that is without :) its good to have friends in the shops. i used to bring a case of beer into the shop on my first day at a new post and anytime i was there. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Diesel moped car...2 things!
I'm planning on BioDiesel as well as alcohol / water injection, a turbo, as well as the bigger engine.All three, combined should allow me to lean out the fuel and give better hill climbing performance. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Go Hoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 03:31 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Diesel moped car...2 things! That's right Greg I should have thought harder myself! I remember back in the early 80's I had a 500ci Cadillac Eldorado which got the same fuel economy as a Volvo 245 I had at the same time around - 1.2 l per 10 km's. Of course the Cadillac was never doing more than turn over revs even at motorway speeds of 110kmh (the limit here) whereas the Volvo had to work hard most of the time. Now I have a Citroen CX diesel estate which returns 0.6 l per 10 km's regardless of speed or load which is petty good, though at $1.70 US per litre I need to start making bio diesel pretty soon now. (LucasCAV pump). That Land Cruiser must be a perfect candidate for conversion to svo/wvo.. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Diesel moped car...2 things!
I think that part of it, is the long distances in the western US.I have heard that larger vehicles and SUV's are more popular where the distances between cities is farther apart.Does anyone know of any statistics that may show the size of vehicles by state? One thing I can say for sure, while the wife's little car has a slight mileage advantage, we do not like to take it on long trips.Driving seem to be more fatiguing, with the little car compared to my LandCruiser.I feel more tired when we take her car, than when we take the LC.Even when she does not do much of the driving, the wife says she prefers to take the LandCruiser, as she does not feel as tired when we finally arrive at our destination. Might this be a part of the big vehicle / little vehicle issue? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 05:18 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Diesel moped car...2 things! It is quite remarkable if you look at the development in fuel economy between Europe and US. !960 I bought a used Plymouth V8 that was prolonged to serve as 8 passenger taxi and fast news paper distribution car in Sweden. It did average around 20 mpg and at that time you still had a lot of Swedish roads without speed limit. I could easily drive around 120 mph on the major nationals. Because of the changes with stiffer suspension and more direct drive, it behaved more or less like a European car. 20 years later, I could hold the same speeds with my Volvo on the German Autobahn with 2/3 of the fuel consumption and even better with my Mercedes and BMW company cars. In US the SUVs still make the same mpg as my 1956 Plymouth V8 and at lower average speeds. Maybe US auto makers are stuck in nostalgic euphoria. LOL Hakan ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Diesel moped car...2 things!
I suspect that the reason that the smaller engine get's worse mileage, is the fact that their is a point with all other things being equal, that smaller engines have to work harder to move the same amount of weight, with a corresponding increase in fuel use.This is more evident on hills and starting from stops ( so city driving is going to cause more fuel consumption than with the larger engine ). My LandCruiser, has a 4 cylinder diesel, that works very hard, in town, with stops and starts on some steep hills, if I go to a 6 cylinder diesel, I figure that I at very least, I will see the same mileage for improved performance and I might actualy will actualy see an improvement in mileage for city driving, for 2 reasons. 1st) I live at 5500 ft, and the current 4 cylinder engine starts having problems breathing at 3000 ft, and I have to run it a little rich and I still lose some horse power.The 6 cylinder engine doesn't have problems breathing until 7000 ft, and the power loss is not as steep when it starts to loose power. 2) The engine will not have to work as hard as the 4 cyl does ( with a corresponding increase in fuel use ) up hill and starting from stops, so the 6 cyl will not have to have as rich mixture as the 4 cyl does. At idle, my engine turns over at about 650-700 rpm, on the flat, at 55 mph ( in 5th gear ), I'm only running the engine at about 1200-1500 rpm.I figure I can decrease in even further if I can locate an overdrive, that will give me in effect a 6th gear.I am, looking at some other things like water injection and putting on a turbo, that should improve it even further. If the 4 cyl engine of the mopeds, is doing 900 rpm to move the moped at 30 mph, the engine of the 2 cyl engine is probably doing 1300 to move the same amount of weight at the same speed. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Go Hoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 12:56 Subject: [Biofuel] Diesel moped car...2 things! SNIP 2nd! If a modern 4 cyl diesel engine can do 10km on 6 dl diesel at mixed speeds of up to 120 kmh how come a 2 cyl diesel only gets 3.5 dl for the same distance at a lot less than half that speed? It's all weight I suppose - or? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Sunflower Oil
Peanut oil is very stable. It will go along time before going rancid. Greg H. - Original Message - From: TLC Orchids and Such [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 11:21 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Sunflower Oil Sunflower oil has an IV of 133. This is even higher than soybean oil. Polymerization concerns arise. I am now looking for a sorce of good peanut wvo. peanut oil has an IV of 92 (sweet). Jeremy ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Moody's downgrades GM to the brink of junk status
And at first glance at the subject line, I thought, Wow someone has it right, GM food is junk. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 16:29 Subject: [Biofuel] Moody's downgrades GM to the brink of junk status ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Kerosene
Actualy if one wanted to bring the BTU's of biodiesel up, mixing with a little Avtur might be a thought. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 19:12 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Kerosene Is this true Kerosene or is it Avtur (Aviation Turbine Fuel), if it is Avtur then be aware that it does contain Phosphurous, which is added to ensure correct burning at high altitude and wet conditions, it also tends to burn hotter, as I found out to my cost when trying to run a Suzuki K11p 2 stroke motorcycle on it, mixed with Methanol and 80 octane petrol (gasoline), the problem was that the cankshaft and piston melted. (amazing how AirForce Cadets will try anything to get cheap fuel - isn't it?) It also makes kerosene heaters give out more heat too :-) Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Where's Keith?
Glad you are better Keith. Anytime you are down and need a quick pick-me-up, ask for an organically produced IV .The resulting look is priceless, and make me feel better. LOL Greg H. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 10:28 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Where's Keith? Many, many thanks once again for all the kind thoughts, prayers and appreciation, both onlist and off. I'm somewhat overwhelmed, I must say, and somewhat embarrassed too to have been the cause of such a fuss. Anyway, I'm back in action - yes, light duty, as you say Malcolm, for awhile, though that included making a batch of biodiesel today. Light fuel, LOL! Thanks again, dear friends, I'm quite certain that good wishes, prayers or whatever you want to call them can and do help in a very direct way, I've seen it happening before. I'm pleased to be back with you all again. Best wishes, as ever Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Process Question
Bill, I am thinking that if you heat the oil for processing, then draw of a given amount and measure the amount while the rest is going into the processor, you shouldn't have any volume issues. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Bill Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 19:42 Subject: [Biofuel] Process Question Hello to all, In the set up I have here at the City of Eufaula Public Works, I preheat the wvo before transferring to the processor. I hadn't thought of this until today, but the volume of 200 gallons of oil cold is less than it is at temp. I have been filling the processor to the the 200 gallon mark with hot oil. Have I been overdosing my process with catalyst? Thanks for any help. Bill Clark ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Fw: [aquaponics] sailwing pump
- Original Message - From: Paul Range To: aquaponics List Member Cc: Bon 1seed Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 18:57 Subject: [aquaponics] sailwing pump Here is second generation of the sailwing pump on my site. www.oneseedling.com enjoy. For those who missed the Aquaponics Conference in N.C. hosted by Charlie Johnson you missed a great one. We learned more than we taught. Paul Bonnie Range ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Fw: [aquaponics] sailwing pump
Your welcome. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 07:31 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: [aquaponics] sailwing pump Greetings, Thank you for this forward, it is an interesting site with many things that I need on it. Bright Blessings, Kim At 09:38 PM 3/24/2005, you wrote: Here is second generation of the sailwing pump on my site. www.oneseedling.com enjoy. For those who missed the Aquaponics Conference in N.C. hosted by Charlie Johnson you missed a great one. We learned more than we taught. Paul Bonnie Range ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Problems with the Biofuel list
??? What problems? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 20:18 Subject: [Biofuel] Problems with the Biofuel list I would like to apologize for the technical problems that have occured with regard to the biofuel list and the JtF website over the past 2 years, and the associated consequences that took place as a result. They are all my fault, however; I would like to say that I did what I could with what I had at my disposal (as much as that may be a cop-out). If Keith would like to move his services to another facility I would invite him to respond publicly and let everyone know. I would not mind continuing to host the services as I have, due to the generous donations the server has indeed been upgraded, despite the rocky road everyone travelled to get to this point. I would also invite everyone to continue their discussions as I feel personally responsible for the decline in useful discussions. I felt that I would be doing the Biofuel list community a favor by hosting it on an alternative location rather than Yahoo site, but I suppose it is once again not working well. I have undone all of the hard work that Keith has put into the list trying to make it sustainable. This message is a result of the recent technical deficiencies that have occured as a result of my inability to effectively move all of the web services from one server to another. -- Martin K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Nitrogen fixing trees [ was: Multiple Uses of Forests - Methods.)
I have found the forest thread of interest. OTOH, it has sparked a few questions, that I can't seem to find the answers for, and I am hoping that members of the list can assist me. Most temperate climates don't seem to have, but with a few exceptions, very many species of legume trees.In the US, Redbud, Alder, Kentucky Coffee Tree, Mesquite, and Locust ( Honey and Black varieties ) are the types that I know of. What are some other legume trees from temperate climates from the rest of the world? I have heard of the Siberian Pea, but, there is some question as to if it's a shrub or small tree.Does anyone know for sure?Does it depend on the climate? Greg H. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Multiple Uses of Forests
Keith, is this it: Woodland crafts in Britain: An account of the traditional uses of trees and timbers in the British countryside by Herbert L Edlin, Publisher: David and Charles - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 02:13 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Multiple Uses of Forests There's a book here in front of me called British Woodland Crafts, written at a time when such things still existed. You'd plant a tree in a certain way for coppicing, plant the same kind of tree in a somewhat different way to give you long straight trunks for poles, masts, pit-props, wagon-shafts. In the next county they probably did all that a different way though, but then what can you expect from foreigners? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Cleaning Up Factory Farms ... and vegetarians
Look up Amaranth. The seed has all the amino acids ( in nutritional quantities ), and the young leaves, can be used raw or cooked. Greg H. - Original Message - From: jon forster [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 05:29 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cleaning Up Factory Farms ... and vegetarians Excellent information about surviving as a vegetarian. I'd just like to add that I was informed a long time ago that sesame seeds are the only vegetable product that contains all the amino acid groups (protein types) of meat. This may or may not be true, I'm not a scientist and pay more attention to my body and mind and heart than studies, but they certainly don't hurt. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Multiple Uses of Forests
Still looks like a book I would like to read. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 10:42 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Multiple Uses of Forests Hello Greg Keith, is this it: Woodland crafts in Britain: An account of the traditional uses of trees and timbers in the British countryside by Herbert L Edlin, Publisher: David and Charles Yes, sorry, there are two of them - British Woodland Trees, and Woodland Crafts in Britain, both by Edlin. Also his Trees, Woods Man. He wrote others, but those are the ones I have. But it was just a sort of random example I used. Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
Know of any good anti-oxidants that are readily available? The reason I ask, is that it might not be a bad idea to use some with mystery oil. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 17:59 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] On the other hand, it doesn't take very long for it to oxidise after brewing, especially if it's been bubble-washed. In one test some bubble-washed homebrew had oxidised well beyond the EU limit after only a week, and well beyond the abilities of anti-oxidants to stop it hardening. Use it fast, yes, and/or use an anti-oxidant. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice forBD making?]
I probably asked for that, for not being a little more explicit. We all know they are common additives in food, but, to my knowledge I can not just go down to the local food mart and but, a couple of pounds / gallons or what ever they are sold as - unless they are sold under another name and ( again to my knowledge ) they are not something that can be made by someone that wants to be self-sufficient. Greg H. - Original Message - From: John Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 08:44 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice forBD making?] Greg Harbican wrote: Know of any good anti-oxidants that are readily available? The reason I ask, is that it might not be a bad idea to use some with mystery oil. BHA (Butylated hydroxyanisole), BHT (Butylated hydroxytoluene), and TBHQ (Tertiary Butyl Hydroquinone) are all food grade antioxidants that are readily available. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Air travel ( was Kyoto- nothing but a buch of crap/junk science )
For the longest time, air travel was the domain of the rich, then the cost fell. When the cost of fuel causes the price to climb back to high level's it will be again. Was air travel ever Appropriate Technology? I don't know.For some cases I think so. My wife's family held a family reunion last Christmas, and the wife only had 5 days time off.Had we driven, it would have meant a at least a 2 day road trip ( one way ) plus the cost of motels and meals.Had we taken the train, it would have taken at least 24 hrs one way, and more than 3 times the cost of the road trip ( not including meals ), and as it ended up, it was half again the cost of flying.Her entire family pitched in and bought airline tickets - and we were able to spend 4 days with them. My wife's brother ( who she hasn't seen in over 10 years ) and his family lives in Singapore.He ( and his family ) flew into the US for the reunion.I personally don't know of any trans-pacific trains or passenger liners ( not saying their isn't any, I just don't know of any ). Was using air travel Appropriate Technology in this case?I do know, that without it, the family reunion would have never happened. Personally, if the wife and I didn't have the kids, we would have probably driven.We could have driven longer hours, and made fewer stops. With the kids, taking the train, would have been my transportation of choice, but for the cost. I have always enjoyed train travel, and I think that it is more relaxed than car or air travel - but, I can't think of a more costly way to travel any more.Add into it, the fact that in an effort to make it profitable, routes have been slashed to the point were only major cities and selected smaller cities on the major routes are serviced. Rail service in the US has 2 standards for track use.1st) The lower standard is for general cargo - the tracks are inspected for problems once every few months.2nd) The higher standard is for passenger traffic - the tracks are inspected for problems at least once a month.Each inspection cost money, and that makes up a large percentage of the cost of a passenger ticket. There is another issue, that causes a hike in the cost of passenger rail travel.Most of the RR right-of-way's and track's are in the hands of companies that specialize in cargo, and do nothing in the way of passenger traffic.So Amtrak has to lease the lines on it routs from the companies that own the lines.This means that the companies that owns the track are the ones that are paid ( at a profit ) to inspect and maintain the tracks that handle passengers. Is this Appropriate Use of Technology? What about compared to air travel? It used to be that the trip as well as the destination was the vacation , so people drove or took trains, now it is just the destination that matters, so they fly. I think air travel might be Appropriate Technology for places and cases were time is a factor and service by other means is ignored - not that I like it. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 14:34 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Kyoto- nothing but a buch of crap/junk science Hello Greg, Juan JP-8 yes, burgeoning jet travel, airports, tourism - all very corrosive stuff. Do we need it all? We didn't used to, why do we now? Is your journey really necessary? Replacement of current energy use with biofuels doesn't make any sense, and this applies just as much or more to air travel as to anything else. Continuing with current levels of use (waste) just isn't an option. Maybe air travel stopped being Appropriate Technology round about the era of things like Constellations, Skymasters, Dakotas, those big flying boats that plied the world. I think a lot of things stopped being appropriate round about then. Not nostalgia (which ain't what it used to be, LOL!), nor any silly ideas of going back, but the current direction is not the one to pursue much further if we're to go forward instead of down in flames. IMHO. Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] recent news items of interest
If they do, I think that they will open themselves up for a lawsuit because not all miles are put 'On road'. And it's the big trucks that pass through states that put the majority of the wear and tear on the hwy. Greg H. - Original Message - From: info [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 06:21 Subject: [Biofuel] recent news items of interest Hi all, It seems that authorities are losing money from gas taxes because people are switching to alternative fuels. It appears to be making a dent in their cash flow from highways..pity. Now they are thinking about other forms of revenue such as miles travelled and tire taxes. Story below Green Envy http://www.kktv.com/news/headlines/1310642.html ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Kyoto- nothing but a buch of crap/junk science
Sorry about the delay, I been busy with illness and the furnace installation. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 12:51 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Kyoto- nothing but a buch of crap/junk science Hello Greg I'll snip most of this... Couple of points: I've never heard anyone but you proposing that we need to sequester the last 200 years of human carbon emissions. If next year the world was totaly carbon neutral, would we not be left with 200+ years of carbon surplus from the all the fossil fuel used in that time? We would still have to deal with the current weather problems from the 200+ yrs of fossil fuel use. If we are to be totaly carbon neutral, would we not hove to do something about the surplus?If something is to be done about the current weather and other current problem brought on by the excess of carbon in the atmosphere, I thing that we do. snip Have you read the Kyoto Protocol? I haven't said a thing about the Kyoto Protocol. snip Many. What point are you making Greg? Are you arguing against global warming now or the dreaded Welfare State? LOL! I disagree with both. So does that put them both in the same category? A bit of a random coupling, isn't it? Anyway your dread of the so-called Welfare State is something that's only to be found in the US within a US context, it just doesn't make any sense anywhere else, as we've established here quite a few times before. The US concept of a Welfare State seems to be all in the mind, not something that exists. No, it does exist.I have seen the it with my own eyes locally. I had a friend, that, refused to flip burgers to make ends meet, between good paying jobs, just because he had a standard that each succeeding job had to pay more than the last job.Once he started to steal, to feed himself and have the comforts of home, and otherwise to support his life style ( including stealing from the people that tried to be his friend and help him out ), I left him behind. I know of mothers that encouraged their un-wed / un-employed daughters to have more children in order to collect more on the welfare check. That is what I disagree with. Welfare state?Maybe, maybe not.State of welfare probably more apply describes it. As for bring it up, the one point I trying to show, was the fact that some people are going to want ( and scream for ) their handouts, that they were getting, from the fight against hunger effort , and how that would be affected by a lack of cheap fuel - be it now, by a major cutting back of fossil fuel use to curb CO2 levels, or later, when we don't have any fossil fuel left. Thus we've had people here screaming that the UK are just a bunch of - aaarghhh! the S-word! - Socialists. LOL! But (please!) let's not argue about it, just check the archives, eh? On the other hand, global warming, though it's also subject to a peculiarly US-centric view, is a planetary reality and not only an impending but a currently unfolding disaster. The two just don't have anything in common. You do me a discourtesy Keith, I never said one thing about Socialism. snip As it has happened though out history, there are always those people that would sit back and let others do the work while they do nothing in return, and still expect to be fed. You mean the rich and greedy? No you don't. How does this relate to the end of fossil fuels equating to the end of the fight against world hunger? Not just the wealthy, I'm including those that rely on the welfare system. As far as I'm concerned. if you don't contribute something useful (even if it is watching the kids of people that go to work ), you don't eat. So? How does that relate to the end of fossil fuels equating to the end of the fight against world hunger? It doesn't. I never made this a rich / poor issue.It was my intent to include the 'poor' that relied on the welfare system to support their lifestyle as well as the rich twits that do nothing, but, live off the efforts of their elders. As for the end of fossil fuels, and how it relates to world hunger: Currently almost every group that works against world hunger, relies on cheep fossil fuel to distribute food.I believe that as the cost of fuel goes up, then that is that much more food, that can be distributed for a given amount of money.Subsequently there are two choices: Use the same amount of funds to distribute less food ( less food - less weight - lower fuel cost ). Use more money to compensate for increased fuel cost. I hope this cleared up things. No it doesn't, not at all. Do you actually believe that the fight to end world hunger depends on rich-country handouts? That's bizarre. I'll tell you what - a large proportion of the hungry would not be hungry anymore if the rich nations and their corporations AND their so-called aid agencies
Re: [Biofuel] Kyoto- nothing but a buch of crap/junk science
Your right, the V2 used ethanol, in fact it was 75%/25% - ethanol/water, but, it required liquid oxygen as the oxidizer.With liquid O2 ( LOx ), they achieved a much hotter burn than they would have otherwise.The V2 also had a burn time of about 50 - 80 seconds, most of the flight, the V2 was not under thrust, but just by it's own momentum. While small aircraft engines can work with ethanol, in part because it is in the same range as gasoline, it just can not compete with JP-8, for use in large commercial airliners.BioDiesel, comes the closest, but there are still many issues, that JP-8 still exceeds BioDiesel on. JP-8 has a higher BTU value. This means that a commercial airliner that used BioDiesel would have to carry more fuel per passenger.Having to carry more fuel per passenger, also means that extra fuel would have to carried to carry the fuel ( a nasty circle that can make or break a business ).I'm haven't found stats yet, but, I think that BioDiesel weighs a little more ( for a given volume ) than JP-8. JP-8 has a much lower gel temperature. At the altitude that commercial airlines fly, having the fuel flow properly in the cold is a big issue.BioDiesel ( depending on the feed stock ) has problems flowing at temperatures as high as 20*F.This could be compensated to an extent, with the use of stronger fuel pumps, larger fuel lines and/or fuel heaters, but that adds more weight to the aircraft, again requiring the use of more fuel. Any fuel that would displace JP-8 at this point, would have to: a)Be cheep enough to compensate for the loss of BTU value for it's weight and volume. b)Have a higher BTU value for it's weight and volume. While at the same time having similar flow / temperature characteristics although in some cases these could be overlooked if the fuel / engine thrust weight ratio exceeds that of the engines currently in use. One way might be to find a way of supplying more oxygen to make the burning fuel hotter, without burning up the engine. The sad fact remains that JP-8 has temperature and burn characteristics, that make it the fuel of choice ( not to mention required by the FAA ), for commercial aircraft, and anything that restricts the use of it, is going to cause an increase in the cost of flying. - Original Message - From: Juan Boveda [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 15:47 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Kyoto- nothing but a buch of crap/junk science Hello Greg and all. I disagree with some appreciation about the cost of flying because the fuel cost increase that you wrote As such, the cost of flying would skyrocket. Refering to flying in an airplane, it is possible and even now, to have cheaper solutions for flying if ethanol is used. The first commercial aircraft with a certified engine to use ethanol as fuel is IPANEMA, a brazilian cropdusting airplane to be sell in good numbers because the price of ethanol is cheaper than aviation gasoline in Brazil. Some owners of older aircraft with gasoline engine are requesting a change of their older gas version for the new ethanol powered engine because is operation cost is lower and more powerful for the sa. In the future, the same engine could be installed in small Cessna's type planes later after all tests and be certified to carry passengers. Of course it takes years to enter into comercial production, partly due to a lack of distribution network for a different fuel in different countries or the plane should carry all the fuel to return safe and sound. If you think about the sky prices for roket fuels in terms of today's fuel composition, some of them with H2 and some slow burning explosive compounds, it might be true but Werner Von Braun and other germans scientist did not use them during the WW II, instead they used ethanol as fuel for the rocket V2 . There are still places where steel is made with charcoal and without heavy metal contamination or sulfur. It only has to be bound to a sustentable forest management. About the plane, I already posted last year on october 25, 2004 4:55 PM with the title: Brazilian Ethanol Plane: Ipanema, greener and cheaper to fly I copy and pasted here its body: http://www.embraer.com/ http://www.embraer.com/english/content/imprensa/press_release.asp?press_ release_id=880ano=2004 http://www.embraer.com.br/institucional/download.asp?onde=downloadarqui vo=2_083-Prd-VPI-Ethanol_Ipanema_Certification-I-04.pdf ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Kyoto- nothing but a buch of crap/junk science
Sorry for not getting back sooner, it's been a little hectic in the last couple of days. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 11:10 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Kyoto- nothing but a buch of crap/junk science Snip I personaly am not 100% sure, that CO2 and other green house gasses are the cause of global warming, The case for it being the main cause is extremely strong and grows stronger by the day. in fact that I am totaly 100% certian about global warming, because I perceve ( correcly or incorrectly ) varables, that I don't know have been accounted for. Sorry, I ment to say I'm not 100% certian , but, then again there are very few things that I'm 100% certian about. So does everybody else. And what this reduces to is an argument between risk assessment and the Precautionary Principle. If you're going to go for risk assessment - ie, no action until we know for sure - then there'll be a parting of the ways between you and me. I'm not saying there should be no action.Should we assume that it is going to be a worse case senario?I don't think it would be a good idea, On the other hand, it would be a bad idea to asume that it is not going to happen at all. I personaly am operating on the premis that they may be correct, and hopeing that they are not ( because of my doubts ), even if they are not correct, I would be doing it, because in the long run it will be healthier and cost efficient. In the last 2 weeks, 3 new water efficient toilets were installed in my house.In the next week or so, an appointment will be made, to have my old regenerator picked up - and a new 'Energy Star' rated regenerator installed.In a month or so an appointment is going to be made to have the 25 yr old furnace in my house removed and a new 'Energy Star' rated furnace installed.We have to wait this long due to financial reasons. This summer, I hope to have the funds available to put in a 'whole house fan' and more insulation in the attic ( currently only R-20 / R-24 ), and bring it up to over R-36.Sometime in the next few years, I hope to replace ( or cover ) the current wood siding with stucco, including the addition of another R-12 of insulation.I have chose stucco, because, less maintenance will be needed - and the less maintenance, means less energy needed. OTOH, I am sure, that there is currently a disturbing trend, that needs to be delt with, be it short term or long term. Dealt with how? While I am in favor of cutting back, I don't see that it's possible to cut back to a total carbon neutral economy.Nor do I see to many ways of doing it, that does not leave the lower income brackets ( that can least afford the change ), and give most of the benefits to the rich.At this point, I would be happy, to see a 0 ( zero ) net increase from one year to the next - say no increase in 2006 levels, from 2005.Then work back, to 2004 and once 2004 levels have been reached, work back to 2003 levels and so on.I believe jumping back 15 years in one jump would be economically damaging on a national and world level - and would affect the rich the least. I also believe that everyone, not just developed nations, should cut back ( or just maintain levels for less developed nations).Indeed, the less developed should have an easier time of increasing production without increasing levels - perhaps a 'green house gas' credit should be given to developed nations that help less developed nation to increase productivity without increasing the levels. As simple humans we can only look back a few thousand years or so, and say what has happened with any great degree of certainty.Beyond that we only have educated guesses to work with, and the farther we look back, the greater amount of error that is possible, of guessing wrong.As for looking to the future, we still can't predict the weather a month from now with anything more than a guess, and again the farther we try and look, and say doing this action will cause that effect - the greater the chances of being wrong ( anybody that says other wise ought to be playing the lottery and winning regularly ). Please don't confuse climate with weather! I don't think I am, You are, in using your view that we still can't predict the *weather* a month from now with anything more than a guess to indicate the folly of taking steps to remediate behaviour which is sending the *climate* veering out of control. My bad, I was using weather as a comparison / example only of how hard it is to look to the future, but, failed to explain that. snip So the egg came first or was it the chicken, but what's it matter if there's a disease spreading that's about to wipe out all chickens and us with it? A couple of analogies that might fit is: You try and breed resistance into the chicken before it's too
Re: [Biofuel] Kyoto- nothing but a buch of crap/junk science
I am keeping the perspective, the carbon was around in one form or another for that entire time. But now your talking sequestering, not plants decomposing, a big difference, and it's as the opposite end of the spectrum.It is going to happen sooner or later, be it from plants rotting, forest fires, naturally occurring coal seam fires, or simply exposed coal seams weathering away. Any natural or man made process that locks up as much carbon as it uses can be called carbon neutral, but few actualy achieve it.The current world climate is no exception.No where ( to my knowledge ), in the world today is it happening like it was when the major coal deposits were formed.I personally would like to know what the carbon source was, in the time frame preceding the formation of majority of the large coal seams.The carbon had to come from somewhere, it was not just locked up in one form, and all of a sudden it was another form.I have heard that it was in the atmosphere to begin with before the age of plants changed it to a solid form.I do not doubt that with CO2 and with global warming, some plant species will die off, others will survive, and new plant life that is able to handle ( and be able to take advantage of )the increased CO2 levels, will arise. On a geologic scale, the plant / swamp / carbon age ( what ever you want to call it ), that laid down the large beds of coal, was not all that long ago, less than a few hrs ago on a 4 billion yr clock, and what man has done is barely noticeable, on that scale. Am I saying that we should continue on as we have?No.What I am saying is that we barely have a firm grasp on the hear and now, to say with any total assurance that A+B=D, and if D happens then F will result 150 years after the onset of D, and H will occur 500 years after F. Too many variables. As simple humans we can only look back a few thousand years or so, and say what has happened with any great degree of certainty.Beyond that we only have educated guesses to work with, and the farther we look back, the greater amount of error that is possible, of guessing wrong.As for looking to the future, we still can't predict the weather a month from now with anything more than a guess, and again the farther we try and look, and say doing this action will cause that effect - the greater the chances of being wrong ( anybody that says other wise ought to be playing the lottery and winning regularly ). Man sequesters tons of carbon every year, in forms that will last for a long time.If man was to sequester all the carbon that he has released in the last 2000+ yrs, the world would be turned on it's ear and we will have even more problems.We may as well stop using computers and go back to the horse and buggy - and more would die from things like exposure and hunger, than from hurricanes, spawned by the increase in global temperature. Man has exceed the biological holding capacity of the world, based on carbon neutral practices, unless the global weather climate changes in a way that will allow a fast rate of turn around.If we want to continue to fight world hunger, give hurricane warnings, and other good things that the use of fossil fuels have brought to life, the best we can hope for is a slowed rate increase in atmospheric CO2 and other greenhouse gasses. Greg H. - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 19:09 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Kyoto- nothing but a buch of crap/junk science Greg, the carbon released from the combustion of fossil fuels accumulated for 10s or even 100s of millions of years. We are releasing it over a matter of a couple of centuries. The variations you speak of in carbon sequestration/release rates occur over a matter of decades. there is a big, big difference. Like 6 or 7 orders of magnitude. Let's keep our carbon budgets in perspective here. Greg Harbican wrote: Bob Ken You are both correct for the most part, but, I would like to point out a few things that you may want to consider, that make me disagree with parts of your statements.. Decomposing plant material is not totaly carbon neutral nor steady state. After all where did coal come from, but, the remains of plants that did not decompose.This process can not be carbon neutral. Decomposing plants can be carbon positive or carbon negative, depending on many factors, some of which depend on soil moisture and ambient air temperature. It is also known that simply disturbing the soil in one way or another can increase or decrease the rate of decay - and change the amount that will decay over all.Increasing the amount of available moisture in arid soils ( like through the use of irrigation ), increases the over all amount and rate of decay.Draining a swamp can do the same thing, as can simply plowing a field, because it makes more organic
Re: [Biofuel] Kyoto- nothing but a buch of crap/junk science
- Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 07:29 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Kyoto- nothing but a buch of crap/junk science In one form or another yes, but which form, and for how long? That is a big part of the issue as far as I can tell.Does anyone realy know?I'm not sure. But now your talking sequestering, Storing - ie, out of action. not plants decomposing, Carbon circulating - ie carbon neutral. Agreed. Am I saying that we should continue on as we have?No.What I am saying is that we barely have a firm grasp on the hear and now, to say with any total assurance that A+B=D, and if D happens then F will result 150 years after the onset of D, and H will occur 500 years after F. It's kind of hard to distinguish much or any difference between what you're saying and not saying. Is this what you're saying/not saying? We shouldn't continue as we have been, but we shouldn't do anything else either because: Too many variables. So there's no way of knowing the right thing to do. I believe that in this case Keith, I am having a hard time passing on, what I'm trying to say on through the inefficant medium of e-mail and lack of vocabulary, but, I will try and clarify things. I personaly am not 100% sure, that CO2 and other green house gasses are the cause of global warming, in fact that I am totaly 100% certian about global warming, because I perceve ( correcly or incorrectly ) varables, that I don't know have been accounted for.I am not saying that I am a better person, amd know more, than the scientest that support the theory of global warming.I just have lingering doubts, because I know the mistakes that science makes, and after all the science of global warming is what, 10-15 or so years old?OTOH, I am sure, that there is currently a disturbing trend, that needs to be delt with, be it short term or long term. As simple humans we can only look back a few thousand years or so, and say what has happened with any great degree of certainty.Beyond that we only have educated guesses to work with, and the farther we look back, the greater amount of error that is possible, of guessing wrong.As for looking to the future, we still can't predict the weather a month from now with anything more than a guess, and again the farther we try and look, and say doing this action will cause that effect - the greater the chances of being wrong ( anybody that says other wise ought to be playing the lottery and winning regularly ). Please don't confuse climate with weather! I don't think I am, but, I don't think that climate and weather are seprate either.A few years of odd weather can change the local climate, for good or for bad.The local climate where I live, has become drier, since I first moved here almost 20 yrs ago, and the weather has changed as well. Has the weather changed because the climate did or has the climate changed because of a disruption in the weather?I couldn't say, and I have talked to a local meterologest, and he couldn't say either. Man sequesters tons of carbon every year, in forms that will last for a long time.If man was to sequester all the carbon that he has released in the last 2000+ yrs, the world would be turned on it's ear and we will have even more problems. How so? How so what?The comment about man sequestering carbon, release of carbon for 2000+ years, or about the world being turned on it's ear? First, make it 200 years, as it's only in that period that man has released carbon into the atmosphere that was previously out of circulation - fossil-fuel carbon, new carbon as far as the atmosphere is concerned - excess carbon. As you point out, something happening over 200 years is a very sudden event. The atmosphere and the climate have not adapted to this excess other than by taking damage. How would removing it turn the world on its ear? Our world perhaps, with our profligate habits, but *the* world? Ok, you say 200 years.I was using 2000+ years, because, I have been told that coal was known and used to one extent or another, since before the Roman empire, not extensively until 200 or so years ago, when man started realy putting fossil fuels to work. I believe that it will turn the world on it's ear.Jet travel would almost cease, or become a thing for the rich ( that could afford to have an equel amout of carbon squestered ), the cost of use of mudane things like concreat, computers, steel, comunications, ( such as TV's, radios, satalights and other forms other than face to face ), farming ( other than biological forms of power - to include biodiesel ), even the transfer of food from agrculture areas to cities would skyrocket - if we went to a world wide carbon neutral style of living. Could cities the size on Tokyo, Paris, London, or New York and there current population exist in a carbon
Re: [Biofuel] Kyoto- nothing but a buch of crap/junk science
Bob Ken You are both correct for the most part, but, I would like to point out a few things that you may want to consider, that make me disagree with parts of your statements.. Decomposing plant material is not totaly carbon neutral nor steady state. After all where did coal come from, but, the remains of plants that did not decompose.This process can not be carbon neutral. Decomposing plants can be carbon positive or carbon negative, depending on many factors, some of which depend on soil moisture and ambient air temperature. It is also known that simply disturbing the soil in one way or another can increase or decrease the rate of decay - and change the amount that will decay over all.Increasing the amount of available moisture in arid soils ( like through the use of irrigation ), increases the over all amount and rate of decay.Draining a swamp can do the same thing, as can simply plowing a field, because it makes more organic matter exposed to air. Making aerobic soils anoxic, slows the rate of decay and retards the over all amount of decay by a large amount. An experiment done in Alaska, studying the effects of forest fires, showed that in areas of permafrost, a fire has 2 effects in generating CO2.The first comes directly from the fire it's self, and the second, comes from the destruction of the top layer of peat.Once the top layer of peat is burned away, it can no longer insulate the permafrost lower down, once the permafrost melts, the peat in those layers is subject to decay, and it release's more CO2 while decaying, for months even years after the fire has occurred. Greg H. - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:18 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Kyoto- nothing but a buch of crap/junk science Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD) wrote: Sorry Mike Actually most CO2 emissions come from Decomposing Plant material. That is immaterial. Those emissions are essentially steady state. Anthropogenic emissions are above and beyond natural emissions. - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:31 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Kyoto- nothing but a buch of crap/junk science Decomposing plant material is carbon-neutral, of course, and therefore completely irrelevant to greenhouse warming. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Soap aerated concrete
I don't know about using soap, but, professionals make it by mixing in aluminum chips. The aluminum reacts with the calcium hydroxide, and produces aluminum hydroxide and H2 gas. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Doug Foskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 12:52 Subject: [Biofuel] Soap aerated concrete Hi, I am searching for information on making aerated concrete. For those interested, basically foam is added to a mortar mix, and the mortar can be up to double the quantity, with reduced strength, but added insulation. This is achieved with an organic soap (from what I have found), but I was wondering if anyone had seen info on using home made soap? http://pelagic.wavyhill.xsmail.com/cellcrete_how.html is a site I found with a home made processor From my search on the web, protein hydrolisation seems to be the soap/additive that is used for making the foam. I have not found any more info on how this is made though. Can anyone help me?? regards Doug (I am interested in making tilt up concrete panels for a building.) ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] IRS Extension
That may be, but, in many cases people are still finding about such an important subject. In many cases, there has been to many cases that are important, with some if not many things left unsaid, because 'someone' decided that the subject didn't need that much discussion. It's obvious from the review period and lack of extensive publication that they did not plan to hear from many of us, What if it is true, they it was not as widely publicized as it could have been, so that fewer people would be able to participate?It wouldn't be the first time, and it will not be the last, that this tactic was used. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Lyle Estill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 17:07 Subject: [Biofuel] IRS Extension It strikes me that a whole bunch of folks have been working very hard at getting their comments in on time, and that no extension is necessary. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making
I like using avocado oil my self. Menthol makes a nice addition to bathroom soap.It is really nice to shave with. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 09:13 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making While I have not been making my soap for as long as Mike, I have found that I do not use any coconut, I use goat tallow for really creamy lather. It is very kind to older skin, but cleans younger skin perfectly. If you want a more hydrating soap, add 20% emu tallow. I only use coconut for dish washing soap, and at that I have to add something to protect my hands from its drying measures, usually olive oil in a liquid [KOAH] based soap. Many tallows such as rabbit and lamb also lather very well. Bright Blessings, Kim At 08:52 PM 2/11/2005, you wrote: I have been making my own soap for about 14 years now. The only real secret that I have found in regards to fantastic foaming action of your soaps is the inclusion of coconut oil (c.o.) in your recipe. I am aware that a few of the more popular websites, and even books written on the subject, warn against using too high a percentage of c.o. because of its drying effects on the skin. However, I keep the percentage of c.o. in my soap between 20% and 40%, and haven't had any problems with excessively dry skin. Common sense must also come in to play of course. If you start with dry skin, you would definitely want to stay on lower end of those percentages with c.o., and increase the hydrating oils like olive, and settle for less foaming soap. AntiFossil Mike Krafka USA - Original Message - From: Phillip Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:21 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making Dear Legal Eagle, There is an industrial and commercial method of using refined glycerin for the manufacturing of natural soaps and detergents (and the harsher soaps too). As JFT advocates, there is a personal quest too - making your own stuff. In the industrial and commercial world there is a worldwide glut of glcyerin! compared to a couple years ago. I've been following this recently. But on the personal level, me thinks the idea of making homegrown soaps is pretty neat. It can be Family get together like making ice cream! Take care and good luck! --- Legal Eagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What to do with the copious amounts of glycerine by product ? We can follow through with the seperation of the components an get a close to pure glycerine, providing we have a market for it, or we can use it to make soap. JtF has a few good articles on that too. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html I am in the process of experiementing with a couple recipes that, I hope, will give a fairly decent usable product. I have used some as a body soap and it works great, however very little foamong action and that is a problem in most circles, so I am trying three diffenrent approaches. 1) 100ml water with 10gr NaOH per liter of glycerine by product 2) 150ml water with 15gr NaOH per liter of glycerine by product 30 200ml water with 20gr NaOH per liter of glycerine by product Firstly the methanol must be removed/recovered by raising the temps above 65C (148.5F) and then the NaOH disolved into a little more than warm water. Once the glycerine has cooled a bit, to about 43C (110F) then mix in the water/NaOH while stirring for about a minute or two. Pour into a mold and let settle. How long will be subject of another post when I have it figured out :-) The first one has had two weeks to settle out anything that was going to do that and it did. Some gelatenous substance caked a portion of the hardened glycerine and had to be scrapped off, but the result was still solid bars. The second and third recipes are yet to be finished however they already show more potential, primarily the third which began solidifying almost immediately and shows good promise. I shall keep you posted as to the success/failure of this as we go along. No sense throwing away a perfectly good product if it can be used eh? I am determined that it will. Luc ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
They can try, but, they don't have the authority.One rental car company was taken to court over it, and lost big time because they fined a guy that went 20 mph over, by charging it to his credit card. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Ray J [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 15:56 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box Yes i have seen this on tv ond on the net... Some rental car company will fine you for speeding in there cars And these GPS Cellular systems are in almost all big over the road trucking compay rigs... I have done this with my own car with amateur radio equipment and a gps... its so easy its scary... Ray J info wrote: Hi, Car rental companies have been using a version of the black box to record speed and other factors, giving them a record of the renters driving habits. If you have to rent a car, you may want to be aware of this practice. There is no such thing as privacy anymore, regards tallex ---Original Message--- This data can only be subpoenaed by a court of law AFAIK. It is only kept for a few seconds leading up to when airbags are deployed. Beyond that, nobody would be able to find out anything even if they wanted to. That is because the loop is only that long and old data is written over. There is no reason max values cannot be stored separately. May have warranty implications. Do not exceed so many rpm etc. It is a 2 edged sword. Some good may result but at what point do we sacrifice all privacy? --Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
My wife is a claims adjuster for one of the largest private insurance companies here in the US ( one of the reasons that I don't worry about my driving.I would never hear the end of it if I messed up. LOL ), and last night I thought to ask her about the black boxes. It took me 10 min. of explaining as to what I was talking about, because she had never heard of them before, so the company that she work for doesn't use the boxes to check up on the accadent reports.According to her and her co workers, there is usually enough 'other' evidence to be able to make a deterimation as to fault. I have been thinking about the accuracy of these black boxes, and while they might be useful in some cases, in many cases they would be of no use especially in places that are subject to bad weather, and slippery roads are common. Just earlier this winter, on the way to church early one Sunday morning, after a day of wet snow and a hard freeze that night.We were going up hill, and I took my foot off of the accelerator to use what was left of the momentum of the vehicle to top the hill.By the time we made it to the top of the hill, we were so slow, the speedometer, was just barely registering, when we hit something ( pot hole, rock, piece of wood ? ) hidden under the snow, and started to slide.Almost a whole minute to slide down the other side of the hill ( a long gentle slope ) sideways. Accelerator was 0%, brake was 0%, and speed was 0.All because the city decided that the snow crews could sleep in that morning. Greg H. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
You had better believe it, it has been used to put more than one person behind bars, and without a warrant. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Ray J [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 21:09 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box But I would watch out for that onstar system... gps and a cellular relay to give your speed, position, unlock your doors... i would be sure big brother has his nose in there... Ray J ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: New method for the production of home made bio-diesel
Why not make your own 'Water Heater'? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Dana Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 21:35 Subject: [Biofuel] Re: New method for the production of home made bio-diesel I am building the Appleseed reactor and so far I have spent about $200 on lab gear (glass ware, pH meter, scale, etc.), and three steel 55 gal drums. Still looking for a suitable 50-60 gal water heater for which I will most likely spend $50 - $100 from a local used plumbing shop. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
Doesn't mean I have to like it, or put up with it, if I have a choice - which in this case I do. Greg H. - Original Message - From: info [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 18:19 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box The average joe is photographed a few hundred times, just going about their daily routines. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
One of the reasons I like older vehicles. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Legal Eagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 08:11 Subject: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box http://www.kotv.com/main/home/stories.asp?whichpage=1id=75424 Your car is most likely recording things about your driving and that information can be used against you if you have a traffic accident. Most people don't know their car has a black box. They are similar to ones in airplanes, although they don't record voices, but they do record plenty of other things that happen before a crash. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
I don't like the idea of forcing people like that. I believe in an after life, and even if they are not held responsible in this life, I believe that they will be held responsible there, for the good or bad that they cause in the here and now. Yes, personal response ability is good, but, I don't think that is the way to go about it. I dislike any form of Big Brother. I dislike new vehicles, because of the built in obsolescence, and so called hype that is use to sell them. I also like older cars, because a single cracked tail light doesn't cost $150.00 ( or more ) to replace. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Martin K [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 11:20 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box Greg, can I ask why? What if someone ran into you doing 100MPH. Would you want justice to be done (would your family?) Forcing people to be responsible for their irresponsibility is refreshing to me. -- Martin K http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Metric measurements - My thoughts
I use standard and metric almost interchangeably for something's, although for others I will use one or the other almost exclusively. When dealing with wood and carpentry, I use standard almost exclusively. When doing what work I can on vehicles, I interchange. When driving, I interchange ( it's a must, because the hwy signs are in miles and my speedometer is in kilometers ). When hiking and reading maps for hiking, I use metric almost exclusively, because I know that a meter is a little more than a yard, and a kilometer is a 1000 meters.This way it put's large distances ( anything over 1 kilometer into better perspective ). When dealing with weight, I use, standard. I personally think that kilometers, should be posted on Hwy signs next to miles, that would help most Americans to start to understand some metric, even if on a subliminal level. I have one beef, with metric.There are several very common units ( like millimeter, centimeter, meter, and kilometer ), that are easy to understand, and use.On the other hand, there are also several units, that appear to be ( how shall I say it ) - almost useless and almost a waste of time ( like most of the rest of the units between centimeter and meter, and the units between meter and kilometer ).For an example:I see printed ( and hear people saying ), that something is .5 kilometers from something else - I don't hear that it is 5 hectometers..95 kilometers, not 95 dekameters ( or decameters - I have found it spelled both ways ).10 meters, not 1 dekameter ( decameter ) I just don't see the benifet of having what appears to be a units of measure that seams to exists just for the sole reasion to give a level of 10 / 1 or 1 / 10 of the next unit of measure ( up or down ).Just say 1000 m = 1 km and call it good. Greg H. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: patents, biotech and cellulosic ethanol was RE: [Biofuel] ethanol from wood
Colorado, about an hour south of Denver.Summer or winter it's cool in the basement. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 17:03 Subject: RE: patents,biotech and cellulosic ethanol was RE: [Biofuel] ethanol from wood Hello Greg, Easy sources of cellulosic material can be found in waste vegetable matter from their local supermarkets and produce terminals. Our local terminal throws away from 20,000 to 40,000 pounds a day of produce. If you check with a major super market, then you can have another great source (waste lot) for fuel ethanol production for free. As a fungiphile and student of mycology (seminars and such), I understand growing mushrooms... and you should be able to sell most everything you can produce to a local market or restaurants. There are easier crops that are more suitable to fuel ethanol production. Where do you live? Peggy ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: patents, biotech and cellulosic ethanol was RE: [Biofuel] ethanol from wood
Nice place. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Legal Eagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 09:45 Subject: Re: patents,biotech and cellulosic ethanol was RE: [Biofuel] ethanol from wood G'day Greg; You are very (very) close to some people I know out there. Parker Co. Luc ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: patents, biotech and cellulosic ethanol was RE: [Biofuel] ethanol from wood
Did I understand this ( and the process in general ) properly? You can eat your mushrooms and then turn what is left into alcohol? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Juan Boveda [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 09:10 Subject: RE: patents, biotech and cellulosic ethanol was RE: [Biofuel] ethanol from wood Hello Dave. An application of cellulases is in the denim blue (jeans) laundery shop or factory to make the stone washed effect on denim with dimished amout or without stones, you might find global cheap providers of cellulases for the textile sector. A problem arises when they might ask you to buy 1 - 20 Kg containers as minimun, I think a quantity too large for a kitchen brewer. Some chemical laboratory suppliers like Sigma Chemical Company sells small amouts of common and special enzimes; these are more expensive compared with the previous providers, on the enzime activity by gram price but gives you the chance to experiment with various enzimes to fit your poket more easily. Someone with a trainig in microbiology can make cellulolitic enzymes at home, but it takes a lot of work and equipment to separate good cellulases in quantities to make large amounts of ethanol that usually some people will choose to buy enzimes ready made and avoid the hard work and capital investment to get the cellulases. Any rooting wood with microscopic or with a big umbrella type fungy is producing cellulases to get the sugars out of wood to grow and these enzimes are release outside of their fungal body to atack the wood hemicellulose, cellulose and lignin. Please note that there are more than one enzime involved in this proccess. Any fungus could be pick up from woodlands or back yards, separated from other contaminating microbial species, evaluated and screened by its cellulase activity on a simple sterilized media on a Petri Dish an then evaluate the cellulase and ligning degrading enzimes under the same optimal conditions of temperatura, pH, growing medium composition. Lots of the work is to mesure the amount of sugars released in every single container (Petri Dish or Erlenmeyer flask at a given time say 3 - 7 day period under experiment to detect the best candidates. Later biotech work is to grow them in an aereate and agitated liquid medium and evaluate the species that produces larger quantities of the most active cellulases then comes the separation of the fungal mycelium and media material from the cellulases. It includes a coarse, a fine filtration and a sterilized filtration media around 0.2 - 0.45 micon metre to avoid bacterial contamination and destruction by them of the protein wich is made of the cellulases, all this to get a crude extract with the enzimes in it. This method do not produce a genetically modified organism but is only a selection of the most suited fungal species for the work, as any rancher or farmer selects the best producing catle race, suited for its environment. Best Regards. Juan Pilar, Paraguay ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: patents, biotech and cellulosic ethanol was RE: [Biofuel] ethanol from wood
I guess what I am asking ( but doing poorly at ) is, would this be a viable small industry? Cultivate edible mushrooms, then process what is left of the woody material, into alcohol? Just one or the other, might be feasible and even economically sound, but, to be able to recover food and fuel from the same cellulose biomass, would be ( as far as I'm concerned ), an economic home run if it works. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 09:43 Subject: RE: patents,biotech and cellulosic ethanol was RE: [Biofuel] ethanol from wood Hello Greg, The smallest volume in a mushroom complex can be the fruiting head. Mycelia (projections similar to our ideas of roots) can extend for miles and it is the mycelia that can be one of nature's greatest assets un filtration and healthy biomass: forest maintenance, and good soil. And YES any cellulosic material can be converted to fuel ethanol--some more easily than others. And thank you Juan for the great narrative. Peggy ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines
It's been a while, last time I was up that direction, it wasn't much, I take it, that it has grown? Greg H. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 16:53 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines I have driven past the large wind farm just south of cheyenne, WY and its quite a sight! ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines
I know the plane exist, but, an electric aircraft with electrical wind generators, that generates more power than it consumes, is. And your right about it falling out of the sky, it can barely get out of it's own way when conditions are optimum which they never for long.Did you see pictures of the last attempt?Let's just say, it now an industrial size jigsaw puzzle, with many tiny pieces. Greg H. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 16:58 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines It's not a perpetual motion machine (the solar plane). It consumes solar power, converting it to mechanical enegry. Once the sun goes out the plan stops flying (along with a great deal other things stopping). ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines
An electrically powered machine, that produces more electricity than it uses, is a perpetual motion machine, even if it flies. Solar powered aircraft fly, only through the use of the best conducting wire, the strongest rare earth permanent magnets and solar cells with the highest power to weight ratio, not to mention an extremely aerodynamic shape, a extremely small payload capability, and safety margins that are non-existent ( not to mention more than a few prayers ).All it takes is one thing to go wrong, and it falls out of the sky.I know they are around I just don't think they are going to amount to anything other that aerial reconnaissance or temporary communications relay platforms for an very long time. It doesn't matter how many solar cells you put on a aircraft, it not going to be aerodynamic fit enough, to fly into the middle of the jet stream, with a couple of wind turbines on it. Once ' room temperature supper conductor wire ', becomes an everyday item, then there is a chance, but, only a chance.I'm not going to hold my breath.Every time I see someone promoting something like Helios as the next step, I have to wonder, what is the ecological cost of such an item? What is the ecological cost of making More than 62,000 bifacial solar cells , when all it takes is a single bad electrical connection, a bit of radio interference ( static ), to turn it in to expensive ( but useless ) rubble ? If you want innovation, as far as long distance and endurance is concerned, look the company that has set the standard for long endurance flights - Scaled Composites, and the next record breaking aircraft GlobalFlyer. 1 man.Solo.Around the world.Non-stop. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 18:01 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines Solar glider/airplanes do :) -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Wind Turbines
Wind Turbines AP Colorado is one of two states in the running for a plant that would build the nation's largest wind turbines. Clipper Windpower of California is expected to decide by the end of the month whether to build the turbines in Colorado or Nevada. The manufacturing plant would initially employ 75 people. The workforce could grow to as many as 550 employees. Clipper plans to unveil its new turbine during the American Wind Energy Association's annual conference in May in Denver. The turbine would measure 435 feet -- more than a hundred feet taller than the Daniels and Fisher tower on downtown Denver's 16th Street mall. The new turbine will generate about two-thirds more power than existing ones. Industry analysts say that could improve the economics of wind power when compared to natural gas and coal. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines
NE Colorado has a lot of wind and allot of grassland.It is said that the reason that it's grassland, is that the wind blows all the snow and rain to Kansas. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 09:19 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines It takes a very efficient machine to be more efficient than a personal local machine. The losses of distribution have to be offset and the costs as well if one is to be fair. If one has reasonable wind resources and space it should be given consideration. Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines
I have no idea. My personal opinion?I think that trying to tap the jet stream is not feasible, due to the fact that the jet stream is to un-predictable.The cost of building any one device, able to tap 300+ mph winds, are going to be astronomical, and since the jet stream moves about ( even on a daily basis ) - higher or lower altitude, direction, or even split up into a couple of smaller streams - there is no guarantee, that any device, that is stationary, will be able recover power, for any number of days out of the year. Build cost recovery time could range from 15 to 300 years depending on how picky the jet stream is, and you have to ask yourself, How long will the device last, in winds of 300+ mph . Yes, allot of energy is available to be recovered, but, to recover it in a consistent way, remains elusive. You also have to ask your self, What will happen if we mess with one of the biggest weather makers in the world? .Tapping local winds is one thing - it subtly changes local weather, tapping a global wind in another. Again that is just my personal opinion. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Party of Citizens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:14 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines What are the future prospects for tapping the jet stream winds and using them as a source of power? POC ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines
Feed lots have a lot of manure to, but, no grass. So like feedlots, politicians must be fed, good feed, only to turn it into manure. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 14:24 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines NE Colorado has a lot of wind and allot of grassland. Well, the same can be said of Washington D.C.. Or at least there must be a lot of grassland nearby to propigate the amount of manure there. But still, no wind turbines or anaerobic digesters to be found. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines
Don't want to rain on your parade, but, perpetual motion machines don't exist. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Party of Citizens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 13:32 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines While all these serious scientists are at work, the imagineering too tyempting to pass up. We now have a solar-powered non-piloted airplane which can stay aloft indefinitely. Imagine aircraft like this with wind turbines built it and rugged enough to stay aloft in the jet stream and follow its change in course as well. POC ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] old diesel engine
Depends on the engine.My diesel engine is a 20 yr old Toyota 3B ( V4 ), not common in the US, but in most cases plenty of parts are still available from Canada and a few specialty places here in the US.Shop manual is available online as well. Greg H. - Original Message - From: alex burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 21:07 Subject: [Biofuel] old diesel engine Hello All this is my first ever message ( Please forgive my spelling.) I have so far only used the single stage method but will in time start the two stage method. i have limited knowlage about diesel engines my first question is rebuilding a diesel engine much different to rebuilding a petrol engine ? the reason i ask is i have been offered a old diesel for testing which is said to have a blown head gasket (oil is getting into the coolant would this be a the head gasket or some other gasket or seal??.) regards Alex [ememail.gif] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Alternative Jet Fuel / Cetane Addative?
Depends on the additive.Power Service 'Year-Around Formula' might, Diesel Power would not. Cetane boosters get to claim HP boost, because it is more likely that the fuel will burn at the proper time in a diesel engine. The main ingredient in most cetane boosters is kerosene, with some 2-ETHYLEHEXYL NITRATE ( an explosive that gets sensitive under pressure ) dissolved in it. 10% BioDiesel made from Coconut oil ( according to Journey to Forever, Coconut oil ester has a cetane rating of above 60 ) does more to raise the over all cetane rating ( and 20 percent is even better ), that most additives. Cetane has little to do with BTU value. BioFuels just are not as 'energy dense' ( for lack of a better term ) as an equivalent DinoFuel, and that is what matters for jet aircraft. Greg H. - Original Message - From: James Quaid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 19:22 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alternative Jet Fuel / Cetane Addative? I'd try a Cetane addative. This works with convetntional diesel in boosting HP and helps with freezing. Regards, JQ Cave Creek, Aridzona Greg Harbican wrote: Needs to have 2 critical things addressed to be viable: 1)Flows well at sub-zero temps. 2)A BTU value as high or higher than the fossil fuel, that is currently used. I don't know of any BioFuel with those qualities. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 09:50 Subject: [Biofuel] Alternative Jet Fuel Does anyone know of any alternative or bio jet or plane fuel? _ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Nuclear vs coal
Is not a matter of thermal moderation that is needed, but, a speed moderator, to slow down a neutron, so it can be caught by one element, making another heaver element.If you have high speed, then you would get elements that break down into lighter elements about as soon as it gets hit by the fast moving neutron, like a bullet hitting glass. You can do the same thing with other materials, other than heavy water, like graphite.If graphite gets to hot, it burns, then you have real problems A.K.A. Chernobyl. The heavy water also acts as a thermal transfer medium, as well as a speed moderator.The most efficient thermal transfer mediums are various types of metal or metal alloys with low melting points.It is a combination of graphite moderators and liquid metal alloy thermal transfer medium that atomic submarines use.The first self sustaining atomic reaction ( just to see if theory could become reality ), was from a atomic pile with a graphite moderator and air cooled. Breeder reactors are graphite based because it is more efficient at slowing down neutrons, and are specifically designed to react a higher percentage of Uranium 238/92 to Plutonium 239/94 ( than would be made in a standard electricity producing reactor ), by first making Uranium 239/92 ( which decays by giving up a beta particle ), to Neptunium 239/93 which decays ( by giving up another beta particle ) to Plutonium 239/94. Standard information from High School Physics and Chemistry classes ( not to mention a few books on the history of the Manhattan Project ). Greg H. - Original Message - From: Jonathan Howell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 19:13 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Nuclear vs coal Greg- Actually, water is the thermal moderator of choice for all operational commercial nuke plants in the US. The mass of the hydrogen atom in the water most closely approximates the mass of the fast neutron. Therefore more energy transfer per collision.(the billiard ball theory) jsh ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Nuclear vs coal
They use ( or used to ) Thorium nitrate as the main source of the bright white glow, emitted by lantern mantels, for Coleman type gas lanterns. It might be interesting if the thorium could be filtered / collected and recycled for this purpose, and made for bio-gas illumination. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Tomas Juknevicius [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 03:11 Subject: [Biofuel] Nuclear vs coal Hi folks, I've read one interesting factoid recently. It was stated, that the nuclear power plant produces less radioactive material (per kWh generated) than the coal power plant (which emits radioactive particles through the smokestack - mostly thorium IIRC) Maybe someone has more information/links about this? -- Tomas Juknevicius ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Bush stands by rejection of limits ongasesblamedforglobal warming
In the case of the company I used to work for, the biggest contract that they had was bought out, buy another company. The new company then spent 8 months looking at were they could cut corners, then with 3 days notice, told my company that they were going to do the work in house, and so we lost our biggest contract, almost over night.This contract was responsible for just under 75% of the revenue that my company took in.Up until a week before they killed the contract, we were doing 5 hrs mandatory overtime a week and 1 - 2 times a month we worked a mandatory extra shift, to keep up with their orders. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 19:44 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Bush stands by rejection of limits ongasesblamedforglobal warming When a German company bought out a Dallas high tech company, they fired 10% of the work force each successive quarter for four quarters (without notice or reason--simply follow the armed guard and leave, NOW). That's not American influence folks. And the idea that many of our water systems are being taken over by German companies (this same company) is also not good for local self-sufficiency and community stewardship. Also consider another trend--ownership for convenience stores and motels is now Middle Eastern related in the US. It appears to be a global revolution--one business at a time The lesson could be biological in nature. Adapt or become extinct. There is such a melting pot of conglomerate forces acting that pin-pointing the causes as political in nature give excuses and makes for press-releases without adaptation philosophies. If a person wants to point a finger, please use it to give direction. Let's move in the right direction regardless of whatever reasons caused the motivation. We are one world. P. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Nuclear vs coal
Don't you mean heavy water reactor? Light water does nothing to promote fusion, because it does not slow down neutrons so that they will combine with other atoms. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 10:02 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Nuclear vs coal Thomas, the real reason for the promotion of nuclear power is so you can clad a light water reactor with U238 and form U239 which is easily separated by chemical action and has very modest shielding requirements making it quite useful as a military explosive. The amount of coal burned and hydro power displaced to obtain the original fuel is oft overlooked, just as the expense to taxpayers is. Utility companies get their fuel from the gvt for pennies on the dollar. Remember there are liars, there are damn liars and there are nuclear industry information people. There are lots of resources on the web to determine the real state of affairs. Get busy with your search engine. Kirk --- Tomas Juknevicius [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Hakan Falk wrote: Tomas, What kind of question is this? this was not supposed to be a trol question; sorry, if it sounded like so. What I wanted to find out, is this a hoax or not? Maybe someone has some real numbers to put out or a link to a research or article of some kind.. Produces, what do you mean? A nuclear power plant does not produce, it uses radioactive material, if I have not been misinformed. Okay, by saying produces I did mean that the plant produces the waste. So, the statement was that after producing the X kWh of electricity with the nuclear powerplant we are left with the Y1 kg amount of radioactive waste material (mostly concentrated in one place); On the other hand, if we produce the same X kWh of electricity with the coal-fired power plant we are left with the Y2 kg amount of radioactive waste material (dispersed through the smoke stack on a large area) And the guy on the other forum was stating, that the Y2 Y1 (nulcear power plant produces less radioactive waste than coal fired plant). This did surprise me, hence this question. Both nuclear and coal are very dangerous fossil fuel applications and the fuel will be spent by both, neither are a renewable energy alternative. Both are going to be depleted and be used up and are a favorite energy sources by USA, who is using more than the rest of the world. Hakan Yes, yes, I know that they are both dirty and dangerous. But never the less I am interested which one of these is less evil ;-) -- Tomas Juknevicius ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Alternative Jet Fuel
Needs to have 2 critical things addressed to be viable: 1)Flows well at sub-zero temps. 2)A BTU value as high or higher than the fossil fuel, that is currently used. I don't know of any BioFuel with those qualities. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 09:50 Subject: [Biofuel] Alternative Jet Fuel Does anyone know of any alternative or bio jet or plane fuel? _ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Curious
Good one, although I know the answer to a few of those. The one that has me scratching my head is: Why is it, that we are no longer with Yahoo, but, for the last day or so, I have been getting double and triple of everything? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Mel Riser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 13:01 Subject: [Biofuel] Curious Came to me... Got a chuckle and passed along Only in America... Only in America...do drugstores make the sick walk all the way to the back of the store to get their prescriptions while healthy people can buy cigarettes at the front. Only in America...do people order double cheeseburgers, large fries, and a diet Coke. Only in America...do banks leave both doors open and then chain the pens to the counters. Only in America...do we leave cars worth thousands of dollars in the driveway and put our useless junk in the garage. Only in America...do we buy hot dogs in packages of ten and buns in packages of eight. Only in America...do we use the word 'politics' to describe the process so well: 'Poli' in Latin meaning 'many' and 'tics' meaning 'bloodsucking creatures'. Only in America...do they have drive-up ATM machines with Braille lettering. EVER WONDER Why the sun lightens our hair, but darkens our skin? Why women can't put on mascara with their mouth closed? Why is abbreviated such a long word? Why is it that doctors call what they do practice? Why is lemon juice made with artificial flavor, and dishwashing liquid made with real lemons? Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker? Why is the time of day with the slowest traffic called rush hour? Why didn't Noah swat those two mosquitoes? Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections? You know that indestructible black box that is used on airplanes? Why don't they make the whole plane out of that stuff?! Why don't sheep shrink when it rains? Why are they called apartments when they are all stuck together? If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress? If flying is so safe, why do they call the airport the terminal? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 11/1/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Curious
Maybe I should say most everything, although now for some things it is quadruple post's. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 14:09 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Curious Good one, although I know the answer to a few of those. The one that has me scratching my head is: Why is it, that we are no longer with Yahoo, but, for the last day or so, I have been getting double and triple of everything? Greg H. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Bush stands by rejection of limits on gases blamedfor global warming
I can't blame the lost of my job, on Bush. I know of many others that could / would say the same thing - most of them have new jobs, since G Bush entered office.I expect to be employed soon, even if it is part time, but, working part time is of my own choosing.I have also started a small home based business. I for one lost my job, due to actions, started during the last year of the Clinton administration ( even before the election ), even if the actual lost occurred just after G. Bush entered office. There are plenty of jobs out there to be had, even if they are different jobs from what people had before.Unfortunately they are not the same jobs as they had, and most of what I see locally is people refusing to work in something that is drastically different than what they had ( although it might be just as realistic to say that more people are fighting over fewer numbers of the same jobs rather than switch over to a radically different job). Greg H. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 06:48 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bush stands by rejection of limits on gases blamedfor global warming How many American jobs has George W. Bush already destroyed? His record on job creation... well, he doesn't actually have a record on job creation per se, but he does have a very substantial one on job destruction, perhaps even an unequalled record, and rather many of the organisations which supported his campaign have an illustrious record of job exportation. Regards Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] about God
I have to disagree. We can have faith in God, but, we have to trust that men did what god wanted them to do - that is to say, not change what god put forth. While it may seam like I'm saying much of what you are, I see it as something different, as faith and trust while they may have similar meanings, they are not the same and should not be used interchangeably as some people may suggest. This is why we should 'study the scriptures, and pray about what they are about, and what they mean ', and not just put blind trust in what others say what the scriptures mean. Greg H. - Original Message - From: DHAJOGLO [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 08:40 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] about God But here is my 2 cents on god and the bible (or qur'an): People don't have faith in god, people have faith in men (gender specific) that they told the truth about god in their writings. God didn't write anyting (ok, its said the commandments, but moses could have changed them), men did (not women). That is a bitter pill zelots simply cannot swallow. It doesn't mean god exists or the bible is false. It just points out our faith base is not in god but in men. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] about God
You put words into my mouth. I did not say that I have faith that they indeed are telling true stories . Again, faith and trust are different things, even though they have been used by some people interchangeably. Faith is belief in that which is not provable, by means available. Trust is belief based on understanding of that which can be proved or disproved. I trust that the money in my pocket will be honored, even 5 years from now. I have faith that God exist, I will continue to have faith in God, until after I am dead, then I will have knowledge one way or another. Scripture ( of what ever the source, religious, or secular belief ) may be eventually be proved to be true ( or not ), thus I place trust on the men that pronounced / publish it, that it is true, until proven otherwise.I try and trust people until they prove to be untrustworthy, then I will give them benefit of doubt. If they then continue to prove untrustworthy, then they lose even the benefit of doubt, until they start proving that they are again trust worthy, then is goes back up the scale. Greg H. - Original Message - From: DHAJOGLO [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 10:54 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] about God The scriptures were writen by mortal hands not buy the had of any god. therefore, they can and may be completley made up. You have faith that they indeed are telling true stories. Its akin to the scientists studying maps of a flat earth. They wern't intentionally documenting false informtion, but it was still false. No amount of study on these maps makes any of the data true. Can we find meaning in them? Very much... but should we live our lives by them? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Bush stands by rejection of limits on gases blamedforglobal warming
I would say more than one case.Over 75% of the work force, of that company, ended up like me - out of work. I know that the company is now back up to about 40% of it's original size, and has been slowly growing for the last 2 years, but they have had to diversify in the process. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 10:46 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bush stands by rejection of limits on gases blamedforglobal warming Well, we now have one documented case of a job that was not lost because of GWB's poor judgment in foreign affairs (foreign trade), the environment, no CEO left behind or any other disaster of foreign and domestic policy. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Taxes
The home heating oil and the diesel at thru pumps is the same, but for 2 minor differences. Diesel at the pumps is Diesel #2 Home heating oil is Diesel #4 ( with Diesel #2 slop over ), the same as Diesel #2, but, the average carbon chain is longer ( higher BTU's ). The heating oil may or may not have dye in it, I have seen plenty of heating oil coming out of the truck that was almost as clear as water ( no trace of dye that I could see ( but this was in a rural area 15-20 yrs ago ), this may vary from area to area. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Erik Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 23:58 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Taxes Home heating oil and diesel smell exactly the same to me. And I've been told by the distributors that they all come out of the same pipe - all the same stuff. They put dye into the heating oil, so that it's easy to spot, but that is a visual inspection of the fuel before it is burned. I know of no way that they try to test the exhaust of a vehicle for heating oil. And I know that people here have said that heating oil is the lowest grade of what comes out of the pipe. That may be true, I really have no idea, all I know is that I've heard different stories from different sources. I don't put the stuff in my engine so I'm not overly concerned about it. Erik ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Taxes
Kerosene, is basically #1 diesel.Kerosene in general is just highly refined #1 diesel. The differences are: Little to no sulfur ( possible give away as far as smell is concerned ) Lower BTU ( shorter than average carbon chains, than standard diesel ) Dry ( little to no lubrication for pumps and injectors ) I have heard a rumor of a Government ( don't know who ) requiring the addition of a chemical other than a dye ( to non-road fuel ) to allow the use of a portable spectrometer.How close did they fallow? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Legal Eagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 08:13 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Taxes Maybe it's kerosene then, 'cause when you follow a truck that has supplemented his fuel there is a distinct smell that can be noticed several hundred meters aways. I had a MOT (Ministry of Transport) vehicle follow me for about two blocks and then simply vere off; I am thinking he had a sudden urge to get some Chinese take out :) Luc ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Fly the fatty skies ( obesity increases pollution )
While possible, it is not likely probable. I say this because of the BTU value of JP-8 verses BioDiesel.Jet fuel has a higher energy density, than BioDiesel, so if using BioDiesel in a jet aircraft, it would take more, in order to fly the same distance, in turn, the weight of the extra fuel and would require more fuel to move the extra fuel. What I would like to see, is a BioFuel, that has the same energy density ( or higher ) as Diesel #2, with the same lubrication and fuel system cleaning properties as BioDiesel.If someone could come up with such a BioFuel, I bet, that faster ( not to mention more wide spread ) acceptance of the BioFuel, than BioDiesel is now. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Gregg Davidson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 16:36 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Fly the fatty skies ( obesity increases pollution ) I was pondering an idea a couple of days ago when I heard how much more the airlines must pay for jet fuel: Is it possible to convert the engines to use Biodiesel? Just a rambling thought on my part. Gregg Davidson Ken Riznyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A second comment. Yes the extra weight takes more jet fuel, but what about all the extra petroleum products used to grow and transport the extra food that is eaten. I don't know how to calculate it but I am sure that if everyone ate a sensible diet much more fuel would be saved. Ken --- Peggy wrote:. Another comment about the larger people: The amazing weight gains make flying the inexpensive flights interesting in another way. You can really rub shin again and again when seated next to an obese person. Rubbing skin with a stranger is really strange. It bugs me to tuck in my arms and still be skin to skin with the next person when I don't even know the name. Peggy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Harbican Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 8:30 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Fly the fatty skies ( obesity increases pollution ) Obesity hurts more than the people with the extra weight. Greg H. -- Feds: Obesity Raising Airline Fuel Costs November 4, 2004 08:57 PM EST ATLANTA - Heavy suitcases aren't the only things weighing down airplanes and requiring them to burn more fuel, pushing up the cost of flights. A new government study reveals that airlines increasingly have to worry more about the weight of their passengers. America's growing waistlines are hurting the bottom lines of airline companies as the extra pounds on passengers are causing a drag on planes. Heavier fliers have created heftier fuel costs, according to the government study. Through the 1990s, the average weight of Americans increased by 10 pounds, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The extra weight caused airlines to spend $275 million to burn 350 million more gallons of fuel in 2000 just to carry the additional weight of Americans, the federal agency estimated in a recent issue of the American Journal of Preventive Medicine. The obesity epidemic has unexpected consequences beyond direct health effects, said Dr. Deron Burton of the CDC. Our goal was to highlight one area that had not been looked at before. The extra fuel burned also had an environmental impact, as an estimated 3.8 million extra tons of carbon dioxide were released into the air, according to the study. The agency said its calculations are rough estimates, issued to highlight previously undocumented consequences of the ongoing obesity epidemic. The estimates were calculated by determining how much fuel the 10 extra pounds of weight per passenger represented in Department of Transportation airline statistics, Burton said. Obesity is a life-or-death struggle in the United States, the underlying cause of 400,000 deaths in 2000, a 33 percent jump from 1990. If current trends persist, it will become the nation's No. 1 cause of preventable death, the CDC said earlier this year. More than half - 56 percent - of U.S. adults were overweight or obese in the early 1990s, according to a CDC survey. That rose to 65 percent in a similar survey done from 1999 to 2002. Although the Air Transport Association of America has not yet validated the CDC data, spokesman Jack Evans said the health agency's appraisal does not sound out of the realm of reality. With most airlines reporting losses blamed partly on record-high fuel costs, everything on an airplane is now a weighty issue. Airlines are doing everything they can to lighten the load on all aircraft, from wide-body jets to turboprops. Bulky magazines have
Re: [Biofuel] Was Pump Trucks--Now Tailgaters
I usually do one of two things, smile and wave at them by way of the mirror ( then ignore them ) or gear down for few seconds leaving a big cloud of black smoke in their face ( it is absolutely amazing how fast they back off in the summer when they have the windows down, not to mention a little funny ). If they then come up along side and start getting rude, I take my old cell phone ( that barely works ), and hold it up for them to see, and then make out like I am dialing 911, and make it look like I am reporting a case of road rage ( if they continue, I do call the police and report the road rage ).The look of horre that shows on their face, at the thought that the cops are now going to be involved, is priceless - as they now turn meek and mild mannered. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 06:58 Subject: [Biofuel] Was Pump Trucks--Now Tailgaters Thanks John for the info on the pump trucks. When we are ready to buy our pump truck, it will come in handy. But most of all, I appreciate the tip on keeping tailgaters at bay. Usually we just slow down which makes them even more invasive. We also move the rear-view mirror so they cannot make eye contact with us. Removing the potential for direct mental anguish via the mirror can help the forward driver maintain their legal speed limit without so much pressure. However, we have had to re-glue a mirror or two from moving it so often. Ha! Peggy ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Was Pump Trucks--Now Tailgaters
That's what they think. Remember, anything can be used as a weapon, even the vehicle I'm driving. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Legal Eagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 09:34 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Was Pump Trucks--Now Tailgaters as they now turn meek and mild mannered. Or promptly pull out Mr. Colt and finish the rage... (US only) Luc ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel processors
Amzi, This is the worst case of spam I have seen in a long time.I don't know how new you are to the list, but, near as I can tell you have less than a dozen post's to the list, and don't know the people here at all. Handling these chemicals at home or on a small scale is dangerous These chemicals are used by thousands of ordinary people every day, **AT HOME **. Let's take a look at the uses: Methanol - in automotive window cleaner. Sodium Hydroxide - in drain clog buster. Veggie Oil - used in cooking. Sure, a few people have not headed the warnings, and have gotten hurt, but, here is that magic phrase again - Personal Responsibility The people here have Personal Responsibility other wise they wouldn't be here. Take your SPAM elsewhere. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Amzi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 19:28 Subject: [Biofuel] biodiesel processors myself with one of my partners and one employee have built a plant to produce bd in large quantity and have also extended our range to soap production on a large scale. nice soap not the knar-knar soap you see made from the nasty glycerine and other impurities remaining. So if u are going to make bd do it right because all the novices out there the so called experts , by there saying of course, are clowns who use internet propaganda to encourage normal people to drop the nasty chemicals on the ground with their drill mixers or to have these chemicals where their kid or dog can get to them. Biodiesel is a great thing but the producers taking advantage of the propaganda with their bs 40 gallon processors for sale at ridiculous prices is going to ruin this industry for us who are really trying to make a difference not just preying on a trend. Handling these chemicals at home or on a small scale is dangerous for all those interested start or join a coop where you can afford to do it right. For the rest stop making and using inferior bd before you destroy the industry by bragging and then your car breaks. We are trying to produce high quality bd by promoting extensive research and development not by mixing in a drum in our backyard while ours or our neighbor's kid plays on the swing. Nor are we selling an in inferior product which would eventually lead to the end of this industry new cars are no joke there not old vw's or mb's that can take crappy fuel they need the best. Im not trying to hate i just want people to se the big picture. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] re:galvanized tanks
Luc, I get a The requested URL could not be retrieved , when trying this one. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Legal Eagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 17:39 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] re:galvanized tanks http://www.paramountcan.com/sl7.html ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] the vote
Grab my collar, and see what happens. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Ross Cannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 07:42 Subject: [Biofuel] the vote I want to grab them by their collars Jack Nicholson like and scream at them 'You can't handle the truth. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
