Re: [Biofuel] Kyoto- termites CH4-and messing with the natural order of things
imagine whole plants full of farting cows and termites harnessed to generate the worlds energy! imagine the smell! it would have to be constructed in new jersey, it already stinks there anyway. on another note: I was just in Hawaii where they have a huge problem with mongoose, they were brought there in the hopes that they would control the rat population that came as stowaways on ships, instead they eat bird eggs. oops. will we ever learn? John Keith Addison wrote: Hi Kirk http://yosemite.epa.gov/OAR/globalwarming.nsf/UniqueKeyLookup/SHSU5BU M9T/$File/ghg_gwp.pdf Nice discussion re most aspects. Since CH4 may be 50 times more effective than CO2 as a greenhouse gas it seems termite management might be useful. It depends what termite management turns out to mean. If it means destroying termites on a large scale, and I'm not sure how else you could control their methane emissions, that might not be such a good idea. Most (70%?) of the world's wood goes through termites on its way back to the soil, to give rise to more wood and much besides. Removing the termites from the equation would seem an ideal case for the unexpected consequences we're by now so famous for when we fiddle about with the biosphere with all eyes on the desired result rather than the one and only law of ecology, that everything is connected to everything else. Disrupting wood growth in some unforeseen way will not do the carbon sink side of the equation a lot of good, for one thing. I'm not sure controlling termites would even decrease the methane output that much, at least some of the wood will still decay anaerobically. And I don't think methane's only function in the atmosphere is as a greenhouse gas. This is different to taxing farmers for their cow and sheep farts - the cows and sheep wouldn't be there but for the farmers, nor have they usually replaced other, wild farters. Usually the pasture has replaced trees. So this would probably qualify as man-made GG emissions. But looking to curtail the biosphere's normal production of GGs seems everywhere likely to backfire - trust us, we're experts. Um... nope. DB wrote: that global warming is real. It matters not whether it is man made or a natural occurence. Just as when the house is burning down you must first put out the fire. Then you can figure out It does matter whether it is man made or a natural occurence. The only sane way to go about controlling it is to mitigate what's caused it - not the natural emissions, which haven't increased, and which are everywhere a part of complex sets of interactions. It's only by controlling the manmade emissions, which have increased grossly, that we're likely to be able to ditch the bathwater and still keep the babies. The other aspect of this and other such suggestions is that it smacks so much of a drug addict flailing about in a desperate search for an alternative to cold turkey. It's not alcoholism that's the problem, we should be focusing on putting more resources into finding a cure for cyrrhosis. Right. Our wasteful, gas-guzzling, energy-spendthrift living style in the industrialised countries has to go. Regards Keith Kirk --- Keith Addison keith at journeytoforever.org wrote: Hello Rick Dear DB, I liked your response. Partly, I suppose, because it accords with my own thoughts. There is no doubt at this point that global warming is occurring even among some republicans. There's no doubt even among some republicans or it's occurring even among some republicans? The first, cause to rejoice (though that's been the case for awhile I think), if the second, depending who they are, if they're becoming prone to spontaneous combustion should we shed tears or consider them as an alternative energy source? (Sorry!) What drives it it the question. There are no shortage of non man made effects that could raise the global temperature. Methane produced by termite colonies world wide is more abundant than any man made green house gas. And it plays an important and complex role in the climate andd the upper atmosphere. The main problem with this sort of argument though, apart from the now-massive body of science that debunks it, is that the termites have not been working more and more overtime for the last 200 years to account for the rising temperatures. The lead contender for that, by a whole bunch of lengths, is CO2 produced by us. It seems apparent to me that what ever the cause the effect is not stoppable at this point. There is just no time left to turn the battleship before it hits the pier. How do you know that? A very premature conclusion, with little to support it that I know of. Again, at the Kyoto Protocol celebrations in Kyoto on Wednesday the speakers were talking of the need for 60-80% CO2 cuts, and these people were mostly being placatory, not provocative. Such figures have been making it into
Re: [Biofuel] BioD test batches
I found in one of my test batches that my BD was hazy for a while (7 days) and then all of a sudden it settled up to the top into a thin gelatinous layer and became crystal clear. someone on another list told me that this meant that I had made soap. John Dana Knight wrote: Hi folks, I have done two 1 ltr test batches in a 2 ltr PET bottle using new safeway brand canola oil. Test batch 1 1 ltr new safeway brand canola oil in 2 ltr PET bottle 4.9g KOH in 200ml methanol Heated in water bath to about 140F Shaken for about 5 mins then every 10-15 mins for the next two hours Result: good separation but the BD layer is milky Test batch 2 1 ltr new safeway brand canola oil in 2 ltr PET bottle 9g KOH in 200ml methanol Heated in water bath to about 140F Mixed in blender for 20 mins then poured back into pet bottle to settle Result: same as batch 1 only faster One of the locals thought it might be water in the oil. I tested it by heating up a sample in a sauce pan and did not get any spattering or popping. Any thoughts as to why I am not getting a clear BD layer? Thank you, Dana Boulder, CO ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] anyone surprised?
http://www.wastenews.com/headlines2.html?id=1108581675 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] dragster facts-this is fun!
Busyditch wrote: 10. To exceed 3000 mph in 4.5 seconds that's mach 3.9 right? I presume that the author meant 300. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] 1 clear water pump
as I understand it from talking to the plumbing folks even if you only have a 3/4 outlet you will still get a better flow rate on 1 plumbing (I made this mistake when upgrading the plumbing in my house). John Anti-Fossil wrote: Hello Jeremy, I am only asking this out of curiosity, but what was your reason for plumbing your system with 1 as opposed to 3/4 pipe? Is there some benefit to this set-up? Or was it a case of, I had 1 pipe, so that's what I used? AntiFossil Mike Krafka Minnesota USA - Original Message - From: Jeremy Tracy Longworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 10:49 PM Subject: [Biofuel] 1 clear water pump I have a 1 clear water pump hooked up to an eighty gal hot water heater. I used all 1 plumbing for my manifold with 1 full port valves. The tank opening is still 3/4 but there should be ample pressure pushing the oil through the opening. How long should I have to run the processor to get full reaction? Thank you, Jeremy ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] sometimes anger can motivate
Michael Redler wrote: Hi Kirk, ...well put! I have also noticed stark contrast at passport control. Clean, unambiguous and polite in most other countries while our points of entry in the US feature poor communications and shouts in American slang (experienced in JFK and Newark) as if being herded through like livestock. By the way, this was my girlfriend's conversation with a US border official while coming back from Canada: Q: Why were you in Canada? A: We were at a party. Q: What kind of party? A: A German music and dance fest. Q: Are you (me and my girlfriend) married? A: No. Q: How do you know each other? A: We are dating. One of the last questions was (finally) do you have anything to declare? Somebody tell me how this is critical to national security -- especially since most of these are questions to which any answer can be given without any references to check its accuracy. It's intrusive and unnecessary. not really critical to national security to know the answers but they are trying to make you slip up if you have a false story. they will ask you the same questions with different enough wording that if you aren't really on point and your story isn't true they are likely to catch it. for example if they asked are you married and you said no and then they asked how do you know each other and you said this is my wife. they they lock you up and watch what you poo for a few days (ick, glad that isn't my job) and search all your stuff. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box
Legal Eagle wrote: I know the obvious misuse of this technology is not something that has escaped you. You know, stop at the next sevice plaza and have the DOT check your black box to see if you have been anywhere hear over the speed limit and then repirting you to your insurance company ? Or better still, spot checks on city streets. it only records the last 5 seconds and it holds them when the airbags deploy so as long as you weren't speeding in the last 5 seconds (unlikely if you decelerated to get off the ramp) then you are not going to get nailed by your EDR. the EDR can be used just as well to save your neck. I am a firefighter and we see some weird accidents, just the other day we had one where a guy was going about 10-15 and he lost control of his vehicle and rolled it (there was an odd shape to the side of the road) his EDR might save him the ticket and the corresponding increase in his insurance. there is also no legal precedent established as to who owns the data in your EDR and what access you need to allow to it. I would argue that as long as I own the EDR I can tell people (the police included) what access they get to the data contained therein. I think that with a good lawyer I could win that case. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: Fwd: Re [Biofuel] Let Them Eat Rocket FuelJohn Guttridge
Robert Luis Rabello wrote: Who is trying to proselytize you, sir? I've not read a single message in this forum urging you to repent of your sins, or repudiate your atheism. Perhaps that's what you believe we're trying to do; further illustrating my point that reality absolutely depends on the perspective of the individual. This is interesting. I think that this is what really gets me about Christianity in general is the feeling that I am being pushed to repent for something that I do not believe to be sinful. as you point out here it is often the case that I am not being pushed into anything. I also frequently feel like I am being judged for my beliefs, (this man is a mirror) probably as I judge others I presume they must also judge me. there are a few other details though that I can't let fly, but they are not indemic to Christianity (homophobia and other forms of intolerance are an example) but are frequent symptoms so one tends to form an association. probably not fair, I apologize for pigeonholing. With respect to the John Guttridge article, why is this the john guttridge article? I didn't write it, someone misinterpreted my comments about hypocrisy. whatever :) my belief in God inspires a sense of stewardship over his creation. This is what motivates my interest in environmental causes, and it's perfectly acceptable that you don't agree with my understanding. You and I can arrive at the same conclusion from different points of view; a strengthening influence for both of us. I have to say that having a respectful conversation with someone who you disagree strongly with can be trying at times. the problem is that when the egos start to get involved people stop talking about what their words are about and very little gets accomplished. this tends to be a trap one falls into when they feel something that they care about deeply is being questioned, especially if it is something that they have some question about themselves. Joy, Peace, and Respect, John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act?
the meaning of punitive damages. the idea is to punish the corporation in the only language it understands (money) so the value of the award was more based on the value of mcdonalds than it was about the value of the victims injury. once you realize that it makes a whole lot more sense. assume for a moment that the value of the injury (calculated as the cost of all of the medical bills plus the financial compensation for all of her pain and suffering) was $100,000 exactly how likely is that to make mcdonalds change their practices such that more don't suffer? if that was your local coffee joint it would probably put them out of business but mcdonalds has 4.4 billion in sales. John Doug Younker wrote: Keith, After I read the details of that case, the case actually illustrates why we should not embrace tort reform. There was no reasonable expectation the coffee would have causes burns to the degree that it did. The industry knew that where serving coffee at temperature that could injure seriously and done nothing, to reduce the risk or warn of the risk. Even now the warning now, is severely lacking because it doesn't accurately define the risk. While the jury award was extreme, it was not the real award because most if not all States have limits in place. But GWB and friends don't want you to know that. I have many tell me my thought on this are crap. ...I have yet to have one to accept my challenge that they attempt to drink coffee at the temperature that coffee was being served at, that time and prove me wrong. Doug - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:39 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act? : Hello Peggy : : You mean like that infamous case of the woman who sued McDonald's for : a fortune because her coffee was too hot? : : Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: Fwd: Re: [Biofuel] Let Them Eat Rocket FuelJohn Guttridge
No large inclusive statement was intended to be made about right to lifers in general I was pointing out that he claims to be the champion of the life of an unborn child and yet seems to be the champion of poisoning unborn children. I never meant that all right to lifers were in favor of poisoning unborn children. Although I disagree with right to lifers I believe that their opinion on the subject comes from a place of caring, I just feel that they are misguided in their caring. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please don't make LARGE INCLUSIVE STATEMENTS about those of us who are fighting to save the unborn child ! IF ONLY THOSE WHO DESIRE ABORTION HAD EXPERIENCED THIS THROUGH THEIR OWN MOTHER, this would be a very moot point. I think that it is a highly confused point of view to suggest that anyone desires abortion. Making the decision to abort one's unborn child is quite possibly the hardest thing that one will ever have to do. Those on the other side of this argument are simply desirous of the right to have an abortion. When abortion is illegal it is not eliminated, it becomes a coat hanger operation. We have seen this in our own country. Abortion is never something that should be taken lightly but it is also not something that should be banned. Further, suggestions that those that are in favor of abortions should have been aborted are pretty heinous. You should take a deep look into yourself that you would wish that on someone else for disagreeing with your political/ethical views. This is the kind of sentiment that justifies killing abortion clinic doctors. Based on this kind of sentiment I should kill you, and you me. Doesn't that sound wrong? Having made the worst of life decisions to participate in abortion of my own flesh and others, I pray for no others to experience my own deceit. All of us who have been through this kind of an experience share this prayer, regardless of which side of the issue we are on. Deceit is not the word I would assign. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] water wash emulsification
problems by finding a better feedstock. is there no better oil than this thick paste of solid fats available? anibal wrote: hello! thanks again for the wonderful support.! i just did a batch of Bio from a thick paste and solid fats from fast food restaurant.. the reaction came out well , with a little layer of soap on the top is this because the oil has water? or was it a bit too much catalyst? anywyays i scooped the soap on top , and proceeded to water wash the bio when i add water the once clear biodiesel becomes like an emulsification...an d you can't se through it.. how can solve this ? would boiling the biodiesel solve anything? has anybody thrown some not very clear biodiesel in an engine..? what do ou recommend i do with my 10 liter batch of not clear biodiesel...? best and thank you very much!!! anibal ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Let Them Eat Rocket Fuel
babies in utereo? hypocrisy is one of the most upsetting transgressions if you ask me. Appal Energy wrote: http://www.tompaine.com/articles/let_them_eat_rocket_fuel.php Let Them Eat Rocket Fuel Erik D. Olson January 27, 2005 The fact that there's a rocket fuel additive called perchlorate in your water is bad enough. What's worse is the fact that the Bush administration likely manipulated the National Academy of Sciences to designate a lax perchlorate standard. The National Resources Defense Council sued the White House, Defense Department and EPA to release documents relating to perchlorate contamination and the NAS. What they found was evidence of an elaborate campaign designed to downplay the hazards of a dangerous chemical. Erik D. Olsen is a senior attorney at the National Resources Defense Council specializing in safe drinking water issues. He is the national coordinator of the Campaign for Safe and Affordable Drinking Water, a coalition of more than 300 public interest groups dedicated to improved drinking water protection. More than 20 million Americans have rocket fuel in their drinking water. That's right. Rocket fuel. It's also likely in your milk. And in your lettuce, too, because farmers out West inadvertently use rocket-fuel-contaminated water to irrigate their crops. You might not think that's a good thing. Scientists at the Environmental Protection Agency didn't, either. Especially since a toxic salt in rocket fuel, called perchlorate, can harm the thyroid and may disrupt fetal and newborn brain development. In 2002, EPA proposed a safe level in drinking water of only 1 part per billion. That's equivalent to half a teaspoon of perchlorate in an Olympic-size swimming pool. The Pentagon and its contractors-who have polluted food and drinking water across the country-argued that 200 parts per billion is safe. Earlier this month, a National Academy of Sciences panel issued a report finding that on a per body-weight basis, more perchlorate can be tolerated than the EPA had concluded-but still far less than what the Pentagon and its corporate pals had claimed. Why was NAS' conclusion higher than EPA's? Perhaps NAS was responding to enormous pressure from the White House, the Defense Department, and defense contractors. According to government documents recently obtained by the Natural Resources Defense Council, they collaborated in a backroom campaign to try to strong-arm the academy and manipulate the report. Despite this campaign, the panel did conclude that low levels of perchlorate exposure may cause health problems, and that fetuses are at particular risk. For decades, the Defense Department and its contractors have carelessly used millions of pounds of perchlorate, contaminating water and food supplies. At the same time, the Pentagon has been blocking EPA efforts to address perchlorate pollution, and in the last few years it intensified its campaign in the face of new revelations about perchlorate's harmful effects. In January 2002, when EPA recommended that 1 ppb was the safe level in drinking water, the Pentagon and its contractors lobbied to stop the assessment process and-with the help of the White House-wrested the assessment from EPA and handed it to NAS in 2003. Then the White House, the Pentagon and its contractors went to work to influence the NAS process. NRDC sued the White House, Defense Department and EPA in March 2004 after they ignored more than a dozen Freedom of Information Act requests, refusing to disclose any records documenting their campaign to steamroll NAS or details of the perchlorate problem. In response to the suit, the White House and the two agencies recently provided about 30 boxes of documents to NRDC, but are still withholding thousands of other records-including virtually all the key papers documenting White House and Pentagon efforts to influence NAS. However, they were required by court order to issue a Vaughn Index describing each of the withheld documents. This index reveals an extraordinary level of White House and Pentagon effort to limit the scope of NAS' inquiry and select the panelists, as well as collaboration with DOD contractors to pressure the panel. Scientists at the EPA, in state agencies, and in academia have concluded that very low levels of perchlorate threaten fetusus' and infants' health. The NAS panel's recommendation for a safe level is based on industry studies that fed perchlorate to a small number of healthy adults for a short time. Those studies tell us little about how perchlorate can harm fetuses or infants, or harm adults over a longer period of time (particularly millions of Americans with thyroid problems or who are iodine deficient). Studies of animals, also funded by the industry, showed that perchlorate may cause abnormal brain development in young rodents, but accepting the arguments of the Pentagon and industry, the academy said more
Re: [Biofuel] pH ?? and Gravity ???
specific gravity is going to be dependent on process and feedstock (ethyl esters versus methyl esters and rape vs soy vs palm etc) for RME it is .8802 and for neat rape oil it is .906 so you can see that this may be a good test, if it can be performed accurately, for completeness of conversion. for hydrogenated soy ethyl esters it is .872. I don't have data on soy methyl esters. what engine are you testing it in? some engines are more tolerant than others :) John Vincent zadworny wrote: Hello all, another couple of quick questions. pH should be around 7.0 give or take a couple of points right??? and what should the gravity og the product be?? i wanna test these batches in a engine but want to make sure i don't blow it up. thanks for all the help vincent vancouver Canada - Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] three phase electricity, cheap motors, and the rotary phase converter
the reason that I chose to describe single phase 220 as two phase is based on the fact that there are two distinct waveforms that are 180 degrees out of phase. I find the wording single phase confusing. according to my reading it seems that the capacitor only converters won't get you rated power on your motors. you only get rated power on your motors if you use an idler of sufficient power and you have a service factor that is sufficiently high (I am basing this on a few hours of reading on the net and a few hours of discussion with an EE friend of mine, I don't actually understand all of the nuance). the lack of need for the neutral is because the current is returned over the other leg, no? Thanks for responses and more info! John Doug Younker wrote: John, thank you for pointing me to long lost, to me, web pages. In the local oil field both the rotary (idler) and capacitor phase converters are used. The one I had to work with most was the capacitor type with the capacitor banks in the same enclosure as the rest of the motor control circuits. In this instance three phases where used to start the motor and two phases ran the motor after the startup load was gone, a current relay dropped out the starting capacitor bank. However this is the first I have heard typical single phase service described as two phase. If there where no 120 volt appliances there would be no need for the neutral. Doug, N0LKK [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 10:41 PM Subject: [Biofuel] three phase electricity, cheap motors,and the rotary phase converter : This is a piece of knowledge that I figured ought to exist out there in : biodieseler land as we are all a bunch of scroungers and we seem to need : motors. I have found that three phase motors are always really cheap : (often free) because no one wants them because three phase power is not : typically available in non-commercial settings and it is often only : available to larger customers who use a lot of power and pay a lot of : presence fee. : : if you have an extra three phase motor and standard 220 power you can : make your own three phase. : : Single phase 220 is actually 2 phases, shifted by 180 degrees with a : common neutral, that is what the three wires are. If you examine your : breaker box you will find that it has 2 rails or buses each of them : connected to a single conductor that comes in from the electric company, : and a third which is connected to the neutral line and also to ground. : 110 volt breakers connect to one or the other bus line and then you : connect the other lines to the ground/neutral (this is only true in the : main panel, in a sub panel or in a junction/device box neutral and : ground are different) 220V breakers are connected to both buses so they : get both phases of power coming from the electric company. in three : phase you get a third leg so now you have four wires. you can actually : run a three phase motor on any two legs but it will produce less power : and, if jolted just right, may reverse direction. so here is the magic, : if you drive a motor it will generate, so you drive the motor on the : first two legs and then grab the third leg for your other motors. the : trick is starting, once you have it going the first motor, the idler : spins, leading the phase on the third leg which produces the necessary : current for the other motors to have their three phase. if you have one : really big motor (like a 3-5 horse) and some smaller motors (like one : horse) you can run a few of them off the same phase converter without : any problems. : : there are some neat tricks too for example those who understand : capacitors will remember that although they pass AC, they also produce a : phase shift or lag so if you add a capacitor between the first leg and : the third leg of a large enough value you can actually start your phase : converter (or your motors if you don't need their rated power) with just : the regular 220. if your phase converter is rated at more horsepower : than your load and your motors have a service factor of 1.15 to 1.25 : (should be on the plate on the side of the motor, probably S.F.) then : you should get your full rated horsepower. : : there is an excellent site on all of this complete with some diagrams here: : : http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.html : : here is a PDF that has instructions on building a nicely integrated : phase converter for shop power: : : http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/phase-converter/3-phase.pdf : : John Guttridge : : ___ : Biofuel mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel : : Biofuel at Journey to Forever: : http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html : : Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): : http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Liquid Trap for Methanol Recovery
process retinol into retinal and if they get their enzymes on methanol then you get methinal which is really toxic and kills the cells nearby. if you ingest the stuff that is where it causes it's worst problems. interestingly the treatment for this is a high dose of ethanol because it overwhelms the enzymes in the eyes that do that. John Kirk McLoren wrote: I cannot stress highly enough the importance of avoiding methyl alcohol vapors. They can easily blind you if in the eyes. Kirk Legal Eagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G'day Kevin; I suppose you are looking for a closed,sealed container in which to boil the methanol. I am presently in the process of building one exactly the same as you, only I am using a pressure cooker and hot plate along with the PVC/copper tubing thing. To capture the condensed methanol at the other end you need another container that will allow a fumeless (as much as possible) capture. This can be accomplished by using a carboy with the vent slightly ajar to allow pressure to escape IMO and have the copper tube attach to the main drain part of the carboy. You could also vent the pressure realease to the outdoors via an open window if that is a concern,again IMO. Luc - Original Message - From: Kevin Shea To: Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 11:36 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Liquid Trap for Methanol Recovery I'm looking for a suitable liquid trap, but having some difficulty in finding the pressure tank w/fittings that would be a candidate for the task. I would like to see a glass or clear type liquid trap, so I can view the recovery. However, I'm not sure such a canister exist. I saw picture of Girl Mark's processor and she had a small water heater (5-10 gal ) that was used. Several liquid trap designs on Journey's site had to do with a paint mixer approx. 2.5 gall metal canister, a scuba tank, and a small water heater. None of these are available to me as a free status. Has anyone have any suggestions or ideas on another type I can use for a liquid trap? At this stage, I have a condenser constructed (Copper tubing in sealed PVC pipe with pump circulating cold water), a very nice Edwards Vacuum Two-Stage pump. I'm at a stand still (no pun intended), to complete this last recovery necessity. The reactor, pump, preheat WVO tank, filter and wash tanks are completed to process 43.2 gal batch. Thank you, Kevin Shea Beacon, NY ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Veg Oil vs Bio diesel
Neoteric Biofuels Inc wrote: Electric heating combined with coolant heat takes care of that. See our site. Regards, Edward Beggs B.E.S. M.Sc. Neoteric Biofuels Inc. http://www.biofuels.ca On Jan 6, 2005, at 11:23 AM, John Guttridge wrote: who runs liquidsolar (www.liquidsolar.com) reports to me that he almost never gets to switch over in the winter on trips under 10-15 miles but he has a big tank for the SVO so that might have something to do with it. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Veg Oil vs Bio diesel
Erika Davis wrote: Another newbie here... SVO if not preheated is unlikely to burn completely and it might coke the valves, also it is higher viscosity so it may damage the injector pump as it has to push harder. Is this true of all Straight Vegetable Oils? Is it a particular kind of vegetable oil that SVO is generally referring to? What are the viscosities of various sources? Can they be mixed to make an SVO that can be used without any conversion? I believe (but can't say authoritatively) that this is true of anything comprised of triglycerides. I have heard some suggestions that if you mix it with petrol diesel in low concentration (mostly petrol diesel) it is less of a problem. I wouldn't try it with my car. I say either preheat or process into biodiesel some places say you get a slight increase in power and range with biodiesel some people say it is a decrease, I don't know which to believe but most people seem to say that whatever change there is is small (usually people say 5%). I don't know what people say with regards to SVO. Could this be due to differences in environmental/climatic factors, such as the ambient temperature of the air? could be, also could have a lot to do with your specific biodiesel. things like conversion rate, length of the fatty acid chains etc. John ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Mixing Ala deep thort was Re: pump mixing, was: ...
Kenneth Kron wrote: I'll quote what I find most interesting. (from http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor8.html) * There is no mixer in the upper stage of the reactor because the conversion of oil to ester is favoured by reducing the glycerol content. We therefore encourage the glycerol to fall out of the upper zone. I have been thinking about this allot (brain bored on the drive to massachussets) and I would take the same input (reaction furthered by glycerin dropping out) and instead leave the mixer out of the bottom of the reactor. also since the methoxide floats on top we would want to mix the top of the fluid down to encourage the methoxide getting into the center where the unreacted stuff would be hanging out but let the heavy stuff that has fallen to the bottom stay there as to push the reaction further from equilibrium. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Fwd: Re: [Biofuel] Re: pump mixing,...]
Cornell's defrees hydraulics lab who has been helping me out. Evan wrote: John, I think you said it just right. I'll ask around to verify what I told you, but I still maintain that your pumps will be as good as impellers. Both are attached to motors, and transfer the energy into fluid motion. Once a fluid is put in motion, mixing happens. Just move the fluid, by any means available. Any luck getting the 3-phase motors started with a one-phase motor? Evan At 01:12 PM 1/6/2005 -0500, you wrote: Evan, I am involved in a discussion of mixing things on the biofuel list, I have attached the whole thread, someone suggested that pump mixing would be insufficient and then we got into a whole discussion about the details in which I did my best to sum up what you told me the other afternoon when I came in and played with pumps and drew things on chalkboards. I would really appreciate it if you would look over this and tell me what you think and add comments, corrections and suggestions where appropriate. thanks, John X-Account-Key: account1 Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from mx.lightlink.com (pop.lightlink.com [205.232.34.15]) by adore.lightlink.com (8.9.3p2/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA00526 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 12:49:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from spam2.lightlink.com (spam2.lightlink.com [205.232.89.54]) by mx.lightlink.com (8.9.3p2/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA28477 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 12:49:48 -0500 X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1105033787-16992-600-0 X-Barracuda-URL: http://spam2.lightlink.com:80/cgi-bin/mark.cgi Received: from smtp0.lightlink.com (mail0.lightlink.com [205.232.89.50]) by spam2.lightlink.com (Spam Firewall) with ESMTP id 80843200D92F for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 12:49:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from lightlink.com ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by smtp0.lightlink.com (8.9.3p2/8.8.8) id MAA04435 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 12:49:46 -0500 Received: from nnytech.net (mail.converselabs.com [64.19.75.36]) by smtp0.lightlink.com (8.9.3p2/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA04385 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 12:49:44 -0500 Received: (qmail 1263 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2005 17:28:31 - Received: from localhost (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (127.0.0.1) by 0 with SMTP; 6 Jan 2005 17:28:31 - Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: (qmail 31416 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2005 17:09:23 - Received: from emerald.lightlink.com (205.232.34.14) by 0 with SMTP; 6 Jan 2005 17:09:23 - Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rp1.lightlink.com [207.127.233.34]) by emerald.lightlink.com (8.9.3p2/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA13501 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 12:09:20 -0500 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 12:09:19 -0500 From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: [Biofuel] Re: pump mixing,... Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: pump mixing,... References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 17:28:28 + X-BeenThere: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Id: biofuel.wwia.org List-Unsubscribe: http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Archive: http://wwia.org/pipermail/biofuel List-Post: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Help: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Subscribe: http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Virus-Scanned: by Barracuda Spam Firewall at lightlink.com X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=3.5 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=9.0 KILL_LEVEL=1000.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 2.64, rules version 2.1.783 Rule breakdown belowptsrule name description -- --- 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO Kenneth, basically the variables are the viscosity of the fluid, the size and shape of the container, the power output of the pumps, the size and shape of the jets. I don't really understand all of this but essentially you are trying to make turbulence in the fluid which is what actually performs the mixing. I only spent an afternoon there, I get the impression you would have to spend years there to really
[Biofuel] three phase electricity, cheap motors, and the rotary phase converter
biodieseler land as we are all a bunch of scroungers and we seem to need motors. I have found that three phase motors are always really cheap (often free) because no one wants them because three phase power is not typically available in non-commercial settings and it is often only available to larger customers who use a lot of power and pay a lot of presence fee. if you have an extra three phase motor and standard 220 power you can make your own three phase. Single phase 220 is actually 2 phases, shifted by 180 degrees with a common neutral, that is what the three wires are. If you examine your breaker box you will find that it has 2 rails or buses each of them connected to a single conductor that comes in from the electric company, and a third which is connected to the neutral line and also to ground. 110 volt breakers connect to one or the other bus line and then you connect the other lines to the ground/neutral (this is only true in the main panel, in a sub panel or in a junction/device box neutral and ground are different) 220V breakers are connected to both buses so they get both phases of power coming from the electric company. in three phase you get a third leg so now you have four wires. you can actually run a three phase motor on any two legs but it will produce less power and, if jolted just right, may reverse direction. so here is the magic, if you drive a motor it will generate, so you drive the motor on the first two legs and then grab the third leg for your other motors. the trick is starting, once you have it going the first motor, the idler spins, leading the phase on the third leg which produces the necessary current for the other motors to have their three phase. if you have one really big motor (like a 3-5 horse) and some smaller motors (like one horse) you can run a few of them off the same phase converter without any problems. there are some neat tricks too for example those who understand capacitors will remember that although they pass AC, they also produce a phase shift or lag so if you add a capacitor between the first leg and the third leg of a large enough value you can actually start your phase converter (or your motors if you don't need their rated power) with just the regular 220. if your phase converter is rated at more horsepower than your load and your motors have a service factor of 1.15 to 1.25 (should be on the plate on the side of the motor, probably S.F.) then you should get your full rated horsepower. there is an excellent site on all of this complete with some diagrams here: http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.html here is a PDF that has instructions on building a nicely integrated phase converter for shop power: http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/phase-converter/3-phase.pdf John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Tripple Purpose Genset
where do you find one of these units and what do they cost? John Legal Eagle wrote: G'day all; After having checked about with guys running refridgerated trailer units I am happy to learn that my suspicions were correct. They can keep foddstufs frozen or reduce the ambient temperature or they can also heat to a maximum of 27C, more than plenty for any application I could have hoped for. They are housed in large units but that is for compactedness. there is a battery and alternator, fuel pump ect. so that it is a stand alone unit. Now what remians to be determined is the viability of using something like this, mounted on the exterior wall of a temporary building such as a construction trailer, of a smaller dimension than that of a full sixed refridgerated unit and extending it's use to include the charging of a battery bank. This would make the entire thing completely independant as well as be able to fully function in cold weather, The fuel tank (BD) would be indoors and so would not have the problem of needing supplemenal heat to keep it from geling.The ambient tenmp for the processor and water tanks would also be able to be controlled easily using the reafer unit's electronic controls which would now be mounted inside as would be the thermometer activated switch to run the unit on recycle or continuous. Set the desired temp on the touch pad and make sure you have fuel and go away knowing thiings will be nice and toasty or cooled to spec as the situation warrants. Using ducts one could set it up so that it would be a livable situation or at least comfortable to spend the night or two regardless of heat or cold outside. A great option for out of the way shack-type applications IMHO. Anyway, there you have it.Now remains to have a situation that requires putting into practice and seeing if all this theory stands up. An idea that is put on hold but not thrown out :-) Luc ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Tripple Purpose Genset
box that I could mount on the side of my garage :) I live in the city and I think my neighbors would object to my parking a rail car in the driveway (just try and move it out when the city finally gets involved!). if anyone has a source for these units that are about the same form factor of the one's on reefer trucks that would probably fit nicely on my garage here :) John Nancy Canning wrote: John Guttridge wrote: G'day Luc, where do you find one of these units and what do they cost? John Legal Eagle wrote: G'day all; After having checked about with guys running refridgerated trailer units I am happy to learn that my suspicions were correct. They can keep foddstufs frozen or reduce the ambient temperature or they can also heat to a maximum of 27C, more than plenty for any application I could have hoped for. They are housed in large units but that is for compactedness. there is a battery and alternator, fuel pump ect. so that it is a stand alone unit. Now what remians to be determined is the viability of using something like this, mounted on the exterior wall of a temporary building such as a construction trailer, of a smaller dimension than that of a full sixed refridgerated unit and extending it's use to include the charging of a battery bank. This would make the entire thing completely independant as well as be able to fully function in cold weather, The fuel tank (BD) would be indoors and so would not have the problem of needing supplemenal heat to keep it from geling.The ambient tenmp for the processor and water tanks would also be able to be controlled easily using the reafer unit's electronic controls which would now be mounted inside as would be the thermometer activated switch to run the unit on recycle or continuous. Set the desired temp on the touch pad and make sure you have fuel and go away knowing thiings will be nice and toasty or cooled to spec as the situation warrants. Using ducts one could set it up so that it would be a livable situation or at least comfortable to spend the night or two regardless of heat or cold outside. A great option for out of the way shack-type applications IMHO. Anyway, there you have it.Now remains to have a situation that requires putting into practice and seeing if all this theory stands up. An idea that is put on hold but not thrown out :-) Luc ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ You can purchase from the railroad old insulated refrigerated box cars for same purpose. They cost about $5000. weigh a ton, have to be moved with bulldozer, D6 or D7 cat works. All metal, which is nice because you can weld directly to it, interior is lined in wood. I've converted one to workshop space, but easily could be living. You just need a cutting torch to add plumbing or wiring. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] tsunami relief, construction efforts
might ask if his services would be useful in rebuilding things in tsunami devastated areas, I don't really have those kinds of contacts but I imagine someone on this list might. does anyone know who he would contact to offer to go over there and help rebuild? John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
pump mixing, was: [Biofuel] more on the quality test
As for the sample, it's not surprising that there was incomplete conversion. Pumps don't provide the interaction needed to keep a tank's contents in continual bedlam, at least not the small pump mentioned and even more doubtful based upon the short duration it was activated. They may mix, but outside the main flowstream there is little agitation. I would have suggested that the reaction time be not less than six hours even before seeing the post. In an environment where feedstock isn't backing up on the dock, there's no need to try and rush. are you suggesting that pump mixing in general is a bad idea? it's a good thing you mention this now as I am starting to collect materials for my processor which was going to be based on the touchless/luc's/jtf 90L plus some minor modifications that relate to electronic control (I am a geek I can't help myself, if I can program a microprocessor to watch the clock and flip a switch why do it myself :) I would like people's thoughts in general about pump mixing, I wanted to use the hot water heater tank because I just scored an 80 gal unit that is perfectly functional and it is well insulated so it will take less energy to heat but if prop mixing is the way to go I could change my course (I could use the water heater for a preheat tank for example). We use 16-24 hour reaction times in a 400 gallon reactor for two primary reasons. The first is that we have no desire (yet) to start leaning the process out and begin bumping into problems. I had already been considering significantly longer mixing times, my last batch I mixed to 2 hours instead of the 1.5 that I had been doing previously and I didn't have a noticeable change in yield although I didn't make any attempt to really measure that accurately (just by the mark on the mason jar). I assume that this won't make up for poor temperature control but it will make up for less good mixing, does anyone have any data to back this up or dispute it? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] more on the quality test
Appal Energy wrote: Well, I got my report back from Magellan Midstream. My sample tested as follows: That was rather quick.. Glad Ms. Alovert was able to direct you to a place that can give you answers quickly, as well as precisely. Which sample did you submit? this was quoted from the link right below it as indicated by the quote and /quote around it, I apologize if that is not clear. 0.002 mass% Free Glycerin 0.940 mass% Monoglyceride 1.084 mass% Diglyceride 3.911 mass% Triglyceride 0.815 mass% Tot. Glycerin And just what is it that you see wrong with these numbers? this is an example of fuel without high enough mono or di glycerides to fail the wash test but high enough triglycerides to push it out of spec. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] more on the quality test
Appal Energy wrote: If you've got triglycerides remaining you'll also have the emulsifying mono- and di-glycerides, primary emulsifiers. If you've got no emulsifiers present, then you're going to be very hard pressed to find any registerable amount of triglycerides. It's really an either/or scenario. This is where a wash test is a fair indicator. If emulsion forms using water of room temp, presuming sufficient settling time has been conducted (and better still if the reaction was a/b), then you know you've got incompletely reacted mono- and di-glycerides. Whether or not you know the molecular ratio of each, much less that of any tri-glycerides is relatively a non-issue. http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=tpcs=447609751f=719605551m=926101095 quote Well, I got my report back from Magellan Midstream. My sample tested as follows: 0.002 mass% Free Glycerin 0.940 mass% Monoglyceride 1.084 mass% Diglyceride 3.911 mass% Triglyceride 0.815 mass% Tot. Glycerin /quote I am less concerned with altering the process to achieve less soap (it seems to produce little enough as it is, provided that you use the right amount of lye) than I am with finding a method to tell the difference between an underreacted batch and a soapy batch, Well, if that's the case, I'd have to say that you've got your priorities out of order. priorities at present rank figuring out what is going on highest of all so when I start doing this for real I really know :) the answer is reprocess a sample of the batch that failed and look for glyc to drop out, if it dosen't you have soap problems, That's not true. Soap drops with the glyc. If nothing drops then you have no problem. if you have soap but no mono, di, or triglycerides will anything drop out? if it does you have underreacted your batch. this may also be my test for triglycerides. No. It just tells you that you had an underreacted batch, not the ratios of underreacted components. yes, but if you pass the wash test and you still get something dropping out then that would indicate triglycerides as they don't emulsify. I understand, but perhaps having a sense of really great fuel will separate within 4 minutes at 70 degrees wheras less good but passable fuels will separate in 10 or more minutes with the outside limit of pasability being 30 minutes would be helpful. You want a green light so that you can run incompleted fuel through your engine? Why not strive for completed reactions rather than outs? not looking for outs. if the instructions on the wash test had said if you have really high quality fuel it will settle in 4 minutes whereas passable fuel will settle in 30 minutes or less I would have personally made the decision to work on the 4 minute fuel (I am kind of picky and I like my car a lot). as it was noted in my previous message I attained 4 minute fuel, if my fuel had been 27 minute fuel, based on the posted instructions I would have said cool, well within spec, wash pour in tank and drive on based on my current understanding I would presently be disappointed with anything that settled in longer than 5 minutes at 70 degrees (which disagrees with the instructions). A biodieseler's biggest concerns are getting all the methanol, soap and catalyst out of the fuel at present my biggest concern is knowing that I have satisfied those concerns :) ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] 7 days settling and something that seperates to the top?
hazy until then (when done it was crystal clear). I presume that this is because my ambient temp is 55 degrees and if I cranked up the heat (at the expense of my comfort) then it would settle in 24-48hrs. when the haze broke it settled up rather than down leaving what looked like a very thin wax layer on top of the fuel, when poked at it turned out to be gelatinous. anyone have any suggestions as to what this may be? John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] quality test
I had similar troubles, look for a more complete post from me on the subject later in the day as I finish writing it. some things that helped me: it is cold here which slows everything down, I had to settle my last batch for 7 days (it had separated in 12-24 hours but it was still hazy, after 7 days it is crystal clear) the water out of my cold tap is cold enough that my fuel failed the quality test with cold water but passed with 70 degree water, you should make sure that your water is at a reasonable temperature if you live in a frozen climate. I found that my temperature control was insufficient and that I wasn't getting complete conversion because I wasn't maintaining high enough temperature, I was surprised to find that oil pre-heated to reaction temperature and then put in a sort of double-boiler setup with reaction temperature water in it would drop temperature even if the water was kept at temperature while I was stirring (I had approximatly equal volumes of water and oil with a relatively small surface area between them, I imagine that if your surface area/mass of oil ratio is beter you have beter results). I found that I needed to put the temperature probe in the oil to watch the temp and maintain so I had one in the oil and one in the water so that I could keep and eye on both temperatures and control things (probably not so much of an issue when you are in a warmer climate or you keep your shop warm). Daniel Breen wrote: new guy here again, So I made my first test batch in a blender from wvo. It separated within 3 hours but I gave it overnight anyway. It was darker in color than I expected. Anyway, I scooped 150 ml off the top of the container and put into a jar with 150 ml of water. I shook violently for 10 sec. and set it aside. It looked like milk. I had read that it should completely separate in 30 min. to be quality fuel. It has been an hour and the mixture is 100 ml of fuel on top and 200 ml of milky water on bottom. Update! now its been 2 hours and I have 125 ml of fuel on top and 175 ml of milky water on bottom. So, since this didn't separate in 30 min. is this poor fuel I measured out all my mixtures very accurately, I believe. Any words of advice.Thanks Dan - Original Message - From: Legal Eagle Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:11 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] god problems (see, got rid of titration) G'day Brian; - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 8:45 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] god problems (see, got rid of titration) I think that we have Keith to thank for this, as well as others who put effort into keeping this board a reasonably sane place to hang out. It is most definetly a collective effort, and all parts of that effort makes this list so stimulating. I know that I have been drawn in to political discussions that I have allowed to go too far in the past. Thankfully, I was gently guided back to the fold. I truly do appreciate all of the discussions on this board. For biofuel information, the JTF website has all of the information that I need at this stage in my development. Without the JtF site (and this list) I never could have done anything that remotely resembles what I have been able to accomplish, so yes, it is a treasure house well worth investigating. I do get a lot from being able to watch the success of others, and do look forward to further success in my own quest once I get settled somewhere. Feeding off each others' success and failures as well drives things forward. Need somethng mobile until you get settled ? There are ideas that can be played with on the processors page at JtF. You got a small trailer you can pull with a vehicle ? Sounds like a mobile BD lab to me :-) However, what really keeps me coming back is the chance to interact with thinking, logical, rational people on a regular basis. Even when I disagree, which is actually a lot more often than I post disagreement, I do learn something. That's what this is all about, IMHO. A wise person learns from his mistakes, a wiser person still learns from the mistakes of others. The point is, to learn something, and here you have no problem doing that.IMHO too:) Luc Brian ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] more on the quality test
before testing my fuel was settled for 7 days until it was crystal clear and light yellow in color. after 24-48 hours it seemed to settle completely but it was still hazy, this went away entirely after the full 7 days. there was no appreciable increase in the volume of the glyc layer after the initial settling period. ambient temp is 55 degrees. all samples were prepared with normal city water from my tap (I don't think it is hard but there is certainly stuff in it from treatment, like chlorine for example). glassware used in measuring the samples is accurate to .24mL at 150mL (per labeling etched in the glassware). all measurements are read from the bottom of the meniscus. samples were added to a small ball jar (about 450mL volume) and then shaken for 10 seconds fairly violently. at 70 degrees F 150mL sample separated in 4m 10s, it was a celan seperation with absolutly no emulsion. there was some haze in the biodiesel like it looks when I start to wash, it goes sort of milky yellow with lots of tiny little bubbles, this will become crystal clear and even lighter yellow than it began if allowed to settle for a while (usually a day or two). at 40 degrees F 150mL sample separated in 12m 4s, there was gunk in emulsion in the FAME on top that never settled out, after about seven minutes it had separated into 60/40 (the 60 being BD) with lots of emulsion in the biodiesel layer, this emulsion never really broke but it reached about 55/45 by the 12m 4s point at which point it was as complete as it got within the 40m before I disposed of it. I don't think that I would say this passed because of the junk in the top layer and also because it never really came back to 50/50. some questions remain: this test clearly tests for three things: soap, monoglycerides, and diglycerides. how can we test for triglycerides (really incomplete reaction)? if we look at the results and say this didn't pass we should have some path for figuring out why. what methods can be used to tell the difference between excess soap and unreacted mono and di glycerides? do we learn anything from the separation time itself on a passing batch? is 4m fuel better than 10m fuel? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] golf tdi
kinda hard and usually 38 mpg in the city. I only have 17,000 miles on it but problems yet! Don't wait to put bio diesel in it, that should not void the warranty and if you start using asap you may avoid any fuel filter cloging that sometimes happens when you run the first bio through. on the warranty: search the archives for a message with the subject VW Response to US Engine Warrantee using Biodeisel it contains the following paragraph: Our parent company does not agree with the specifications for biodiesel in the U.S. and does not recommend its use in any percentage. Using biodiesel will invalidate our warranty. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] more on the quality test
fuel will separate within 4 minutes at 70 degrees wheras less good but passable fuels will separate in 10 or more minutes with the outside limit of pasability being 30 minutes would be helpful. again, thanks for your response! John Guttridge Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:37 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more on the quality test I have completed my testing with 150mL from my 4L batch. before testing my fuel was settled for 7 days until it was crystal clear and light yellow in color. after 24-48 hours it seemed to settle completely but it was still hazy, this went away entirely after the full 7 days. there was no appreciable increase in the volume of the glyc layer after the initial settling period. ambient temp is 55 degrees. all samples were prepared with normal city water from my tap (I don't think it is hard but there is certainly stuff in it from treatment, like chlorine for example). glassware used in measuring the samples is accurate to .24mL at 150mL (per labeling etched in the glassware). all measurements are read from the bottom of the meniscus. samples were added to a small ball jar (about 450mL volume) and then shaken for 10 seconds fairly violently. at 70 degrees F 150mL sample separated in 4m 10s, it was a celan seperation with absolutly no emulsion. there was some haze in the biodiesel like it looks when I start to wash, it goes sort of milky yellow with lots of tiny little bubbles, this will become crystal clear and even lighter yellow than it began if allowed to settle for a while (usually a day or two). at 40 degrees F 150mL sample separated in 12m 4s, there was gunk in emulsion in the FAME on top that never settled out, after about seven minutes it had separated into 60/40 (the 60 being BD) with lots of emulsion in the biodiesel layer, this emulsion never really broke but it reached about 55/45 by the 12m 4s point at which point it was as complete as it got within the 40m before I disposed of it. I don't think that I would say this passed because of the junk in the top layer and also because it never really came back to 50/50. some questions remain: this test clearly tests for three things: soap, monoglycerides, and diglycerides. how can we test for triglycerides (really incomplete reaction)? if we look at the results and say this didn't pass we should have some path for figuring out why. what methods can be used to tell the difference between excess soap and unreacted mono and di glycerides? do we learn anything from the separation time itself on a passing batch? is 4m fuel better than 10m fuel? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Something strange in the last batch of FAME
you keeping your shop warm in that -14 C Finland? Johnsson Tomas wrote: Hello All, Something strange was happening with the last batch. There is probably something additional in the SWO. The oil never cleared after heated and the water was removed (+55¡C). Still there was no worry as it has been seen before. The titration was OK (2,5g+3,5g) and everything went smoth and the glycerine was removed after fallen out. The glycerine was dark but not very thick, still no worry. We are using approx 22-25 % metanol in the transesterification. The Ester was cloudy and never cleared after the 2 and 3rd wash and it seams that there is some water or metanol still trapped in the ester. We have been reheating the Ester to 60¡C and after heating passing it through our small separator (alfie). Moisture is dropping out when separated (the moisture is approx. ph 8) but the Ester is still keeping something in it as it is cloudy and it can be seen that there is something in the ester. The transesterification was current and all the glycerine removed as the separatore is else no t! keeping the ester from the water, emulsifying and making chicken soup. In the SWO we had a small part of a used biohydraulic oil which is based on a ester which might have affect the process, we also accidentaly had a very small part of used mineralmotoroil escaping into the SWO. Our next idea is to heat the Ester to over 80¡C to remove possible metanol and after that to over 100¡C to remove possible water. While working on this what might the next step be in trying to solv the very intersting problem if the hetaing is not doing the thing. Is there any easy way of finding out what the Ester might keep trapped and is there some way of purifying the ester from chemical contaminations? Thanks in advance for all suggestions which might help solving our very interesting case. Best regards from a -14¡C Finland Tomas Johnsson ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
again. I will post the results when done. John Keith Addison wrote: Thankyou John. I hope this discussion can resume now. Best wishes Keith Addison List owner to todd and the list in general, I would like to sincerely apologize for allowing myself to get involved in this flame war. It was inappropriate and not at all constructive. Further I apologize for my use of inappropriate language. I still have unanswered questions that I hope I can get answered here. I will continue to post the results of my tests in the hope that they will further the goal of making the production of high quality biodiesel accessible to all. Sincerely, John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
Appal Energy wrote: John, I don't know why you find it necessary to proclaim specific matters to be sore spots or as having been tak[en]... personally. because you are being pissy about this whole thing. What I do find perplexing is the amazing number of people who don't read or follow instructions when available, modify them under the premise of experimentation, even when they're trying out their first batches and should be adhering to them more rigidly than any other time, and then proclaim that they don't work, or aren't reproducable. you will note that the reason that I posted it was to do a sort of peer review process. you pointed out that I made a mistake in my experimentation and then I took steps to correct that mistake. What I find even more amazing (actually, not) is the fact that those very same people, once it is discerned or they reveal that the available instructions weren't adhered to, continue to find fault with everything but their own failure to read and follow. you will note that in my first reply to this I said that I understood that the volume could be a problem, then in my second I said that I would make a bigger test batch and repeat the experiment with the suggested volume. My personal belief is that if you want to dally in your laboratory, great. But if you wish to lay claims that aren't accurate pursuant to dalliances that are at great variance from any instructions (baseline) that you might imply as having followed, then you probably deserve any frustrations that acrue. Mind you the instructions did say to add 150 ml of water, not 150 ml of icecubes, or chilled water, or even heated water, much less 4 ml in a culture tube. (Hopefully, you did take note of the mention of magnified error when working in such micro-quantities.) the reason that I did this experiment at all was because I kept making 1L batches following the instructions to the letter that washed nicely but failed the quality test. I figured I could save oil by doing micro tests. you pointed out the error in that and I am taking steps to eliminate that error. And if your preference is to declare that your failing to run the middle course is a sore spot with others who might point this out, then I'd have to say with certainty you're welcome to whatever frustration you create for yourself. Yes indeed, you are entitled to them. what??? I suggested that others with cold water may have problems, luc backed me up. My bet is that if you're sharp enough to conduct all your variances and question your results, you might eventually learn from error and begin to acknowledge the basic necessity of using (and following) a map when venturing into the unknown, rather than just sticking a wetted finger into the air and presuming that all winds blow from the north. following the map doesn't yield arrival at the destination and I start questioning the map. I am doing the best to have peer review of my questionings. if you were a good scientist you would say silly john, you made an error here and I would say oh, I am sorry, you are right, let me fix that and try again and we would have advancement. Nothing personal. Just taking note of your obstinance. I post results which are questioned and then agree to make the steps to fix the questions. I ask more questions and answer those asked of me, you wave you dick around and call me a bad scientist without answering the majority of my questions. who is being obstinate? nothing personal, just making note of your hipocracy. John Todd Swearingen Post script: We've been washing with well/ground water, averaging ~55*F, for the past five years now. Do you think perhaps we should wedge open the shop doors and windows during the winter months in hopes that washes and reactions will work better? There are reasons why shops and labs are kept at reasonable temperatures, the first and foremost is not just to keep the human occupants fuzzy and comfortable. - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 1:28 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test Todd, sorry to have stuck a sore spot with you, please stop taking this all personally. I never meant any of this as an attack at anyone, I am picking at things until I understand them. the purpose of this forum seems to be streamlining the process of learning. also I have observed that keith frequently expresses frustration that things get gone over again and again, lets make the instructions more specific to avoid this. Appal Energy wrote: John, I still think that temperature has a drastic effect on seperation time And you're correct. But there aren't too many people out there who are going to be washing with water direct from a glacier fed stream. I live in the northeast, my basement is cold and the pipes run through there, this has an effect
Re: [Biofuel] Producing ethanol for fuel use
I have actually attempted this as this was an old recipe for making apple jack from hard apple cider. there are a couple of problems. first this leaves in all of the stuff that doesn't freeze which includes all sorts of particulates and other nastiness. also it is very labor intensive as you have to skim the ice off regularly or it doesn't really work (if you just let it go you end up with something like a slushie but harder). if you are willing to overcome those considerations (I.e. filter and remove the ice regularly) then it should do what you want. John Legal Eagle wrote: While having a chat with our local organic farmer it was disclosed that it is possible to make food grade ethanol (vodka) from the fermentation process without a still by simpy allowing the natural fermentation to occur and then bringing he mix to well below freezing temperatures where the water will solidify but the alcohol won't. Granted this could produce some inetresting alcohol for tinctures or other medicinal purposes, but what if you take this same principle and then run the high water content ethanol that is produced this way through a simple condenser a la glycerine recovery system? Wouldn't the alcohol/ethanol still evaporate at a much lower temp than the water and thereby dewater the ethanol which would be captured in a jug or recepticle of some sort ? I know not much of these things, however from what I have gathered wouldn't this be a possibility ? Thanks for reading. Luc ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
I would like to sincerely apologize for allowing myself to get involved in this flame war. It was inappropriate and not at all constructive. Further I apologize for my use of inappropriate language. I still have unanswered questions that I hope I can get answered here. I will continue to post the results of my tests in the hope that they will further the goal of making the production of high quality biodiesel accessible to all. Sincerely, John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
sorry to have stuck a sore spot with you, please stop taking this all personally. I never meant any of this as an attack at anyone, I am picking at things until I understand them. the purpose of this forum seems to be streamlining the process of learning. also I have observed that keith frequently expresses frustration that things get gone over again and again, lets make the instructions more specific to avoid this. Appal Energy wrote: John, I still think that temperature has a drastic effect on seperation time And you're correct. But there aren't too many people out there who are going to be washing with water direct from a glacier fed stream. I live in the northeast, my basement is cold and the pipes run through there, this has an effect. that doesn't sound that uncommon. I am pointing out a sticking point that people may have (if I am having this problem other people are probably having it too). Some people get stuck. Some eventually recognize it for what it is and adapt. right, so lets put it in the instructions so that no one gets stuck in the first place. as you may have noticed I am of the second group, now I want to make things different for the next batch of newbies. one of the problems that I have with all of this is that the instructions are really general Not really. They're pretty specific. They may not have had an exact temperature pasted all over them, but they were specific beyond that. You could at least note that you opted to go off the beaten path and then lay claim as to unreproducable. That in itself is a little bit misleading to those who read it or who come to it later. there was no mention of temperature. that is a factor that can cause problems, I would say that makes the instructions fairly general. mix 150mL of that with 150mL of this and shake the hell out of it for 10 seconds, let sit for 30 minutes and see what you get is pretty general. Making biodiesel is not rocket science. It's not exactly bucket science either, as you have to use a little common sense and stick somewhere close to the middle of what's known to work. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test Resending the following because I am unsure if it was caught in the outage: Understood. I will produce a batch large enough to make several runs at the 150mL test and post the results. I consumed the remains of my last test batch in a 125mL run (it was all that was left) and I followed your agitation (10 times up and down violently). it had seperated in to two clearly stratified sections within abbout 1 minute with 60*F water however it still had lots of tiny bubbles in both parts (sort of a milky yellow and a milky white). is that what you mean by clear seperation? I still think that temperature has a drastic effect on seperation time which I will test and post the results and methods of my experiment. I would like to state to the list in general and especially kieth that no one should take any of this personally. I am posting my results so that people can point out errors. I am pointing out a sticking point that people may have (if I am having this problem other people are probably having it too). any good science is a process of peer review. one posts methods and results others duplicate ones experiments and if they prove reporducable and consistant then they are seen by the community to be valid. one of the problems that I have with all of this is that the instructions are really general and I fear that there are factors that are important but are not mentioned such that they can be controlled. John Appal Energy wrote: John Guttridge, If you're looking for reproducability, you need to follow baseline, not modify a test/experiment so as to suit your own preference or conditions. You've apparently neglected to consider increases in sampling error that occur when conducting tests at micro-levels/volumes. You compound any flaw in your final evaluations by conducting not only the wash but the esterification with miniscule volumes. Unless your preparations are made with electronic scales to the thousandth of a gram, your alcohol and feedstock volumes determined by weight using the same scale, rather than relying upon glassware that forewarns of + or - 5% error factor, not to mention the + or - 10% human error factor (whether you know what end of the miniscus to take your measurements from or not) you only compound the degree of errors that are or can be represented by your conclusions. There is an enormous world of difference between reproducablity/results achieved on 150 ml samples and samples no bigger than single liters, even when conducted by professionals with decades of experience. As to your questioning the time frame that I mentioned for separation
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
not really trying to say that keith has made a mistake on his site. instead I was asking for more information on how to conduct the test in a reproducible manner. I have a lot of respect for keith and what he does. you seem to lack that and I would be interested to understand why. I think that it is probably a good test to weed out the grossly under reacted batches and the way too much catalyst batches. I couldn't figure out why I kept following the instructions to the letter and getting batches that failed the quality test. 'it is cold here' seems to be the answer. maybe also 'I have soft water' is the answer. also your generalized quest against all things JtF gives you very little veracity as I have found that JtF is an invaluable resource. you and the other one that contacted me off list and tried to direct me at some other site seem to both be on another planet than the rest of the community and the rest of the community seems to be happily functioning and making high quality fuel that works well. I wasted a lot of time listening to your advice, when see new people on the list I want to warn them not to listen. I am scientific and skeptical, unless someone can give me good reasons and solid instructions their advice is usually out the door (often to my own detriment, but at least I really learn things when I do). John tillyfromparadise wrote: Hello John, It takes a brave man to tell Keith he has a mistake on JTF You are correct. The water shake test has many problems and at best only picks up Grossly under-reacted batches. Passing the shake test is certainly NOT an indication that the fuel is *well within the standard specifications* as claimed on JTF, It is only an indication that the fuel is probably not grossly under-reacted. You are also correct that what is in the water makes a difference. Hard water seperates MUCH quicker than soft water. It is also important to allow the biodiesel to sit at least over night before doing the test. There is NO simple home made test for checking whether your biodiesel meets ASTM or not. I suspect very few people actually achieve ASTM standard biodiesel The best home test is a Viscosity test. These have limitations too as the viscosity of biodiesel varies slightly depending on what the original oil was. But it is a darn site better than the Shake-em up test on JTF. But then Keith has officially declaired that viscosity is not an indicator of quality so that is never going to be discussed. I wonder what the penality for telling Keith he has a mistake on his web site is? Good Luck Squire Tilly KE the quality test listed here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality doesn't have enough information to be reproducible. separation time seems to be based on a number of factors including but probably not limited to: ambient temperature initial temperature of the H2O and the FAME snip * Yahoo! Messenger http://sg.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline/?http://sg.messenger.yahoo.com/* - Log on http://sg.mobile.yahoo.com/sms/msgr20.html with your mobile phone! ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
the 70*F batch was mostly separated within about 5-10 minutes but didn't really reach completion until the end of 25 minutes. thirty seconds to a minute??? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality says Then let it settle. The biodiesel should separate from the water in half an hour or less, with amber biodiesel on top and milky water below. at 140 it separated right quick. I understand how volume could have such a big effect, bubbles of the fuel seemed to form and get stuck on one another's surface tension while the separation was happening. only problem is that 150mL is just about all of my test batch so I won't be able to perform the test multiple times and vary the parameters. what I was trying to suggest here is that there are some factors that drastically affect the results that aren't even mentioned such that they can be controlled. John Appal Energy wrote: John, It is reproducable if you use larger volumes than the 8 ml total volume that you're using. A couple of fluid ounces would be more appropriate. The method suggests ~150 ml, or approximately five fluid ounces. If you're not getting anything resembling a clean separation for 25 minutes using 70*F water, something is not right. Same for the 50*F wash yielding three layers. The suggestion would be to work on getting more complete reactions. If the reaction went to completion, you should be able to take a 50/50 sample of water and fuel, shake radically/vertically ten times, and get a clean separation within 30 seconds to one minute, using the first water that comes out of a cold tap (ambient temp). Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 3:25 PM Subject: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test the quality test listed here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality doesn't have enough information to be reproducible. separation time seems to be based on a number of factors including but probably not limited to: ambient temperature initial temperature of the H2O and the FAME I made a test batch yesterday and then performed the quality test on it a number of times varying different factors, I did 2 with the coldest water that would come out of my tap and 2 with the hottest water that would come out of my tap, and one with appx 70 degree water (cold was about 55 degrees F and hot was about 140 degrees F) I also did 2 that sat in a bath of 140 degree water while they were separating, ambient temperature in my kitchen is approximately 60 degrees F. the two that sat in the 140 degree water had separated completely in less than 2 minutes, the 2 that were made with the hot water had completely separated (less cleanly than the ones in the hot water bath) in 18 minutes, the one that was made with 70 degree water separated fully in 25 minutes, and the ones that were made with the cold water separated into three layers of approximately the same volume one that was straw yellow and slightly milky one that was a much lighter yellow and much more milky and one that was milky white. these were all prepared in 13x100mm culture tubes with 4mL of H2O and 4mL of FAME. I also presume, although I have not yet tested this that the contents of one's tap water and the shape of one's container make a difference in the results. John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
Understood. I will produce a batch large enough to make several runs at the 150mL test and post the results. I consumed the remains of my last test batch in a 125mL run (it was all that was left) and I followed your agitation (10 times up and down violently). it had seperated in to two clearly stratified sections within abbout 1 minute with 60*F water however it still had lots of tiny bubbles in both parts (sort of a milky yellow and a milky white). is that what you mean by clear seperation? I still think that temperature has a drastic effect on seperation time which I will test and post the results and methods of my experiment. I would like to state to the list in general and especially kieth that no one should take any of this personally. I am posting my results so that people can point out errors. I am pointing out a sticking point that people may have (if I am having this problem other people are probably having it too). any good science is a process of peer review. one posts methods and results others duplicate ones experiments and if they prove reporducable and consistant then they are seen by the community to be valid. one of the problems that I have with all of this is that the instructions are really general and I fear that there are factors that are important but are not mentioned such that they can be controlled. John Appal Energy wrote: John Guttridge, If you're looking for reproducability, you need to follow baseline, not modify a test/experiment so as to suit your own preference or conditions. You've apparently neglected to consider increases in sampling error that occur when conducting tests at micro-levels/volumes. You compound any flaw in your final evaluations by conducting not only the wash but the esterification with miniscule volumes. Unless your preparations are made with electronic scales to the thousandth of a gram, your alcohol and feedstock volumes determined by weight using the same scale, rather than relying upon glassware that forewarns of + or - 5% error factor, not to mention the + or - 10% human error factor (whether you know what end of the miniscus to take your measurements from or not) you only compound the degree of errors that are or can be represented by your conclusions. There is an enormous world of difference between reproducablity/results achieved on 150 ml samples and samples no bigger than single liters, even when conducted by professionals with decades of experience. As to your questioning the time frame that I mentioned for separation of well processed fuel, you need to take notice of the difference between the agitation period stated in my post and the general guideline you opted to modify. You also need to take notice that the wash test is not represented as anything more than a quick and simple manner of determing how an operator may care or feel reasonably safe to proceed with what he or she may believe to be biodiesel. The guidelines that are offered on this list and at Journey to Forever are intended to assist the general public in getting their fuel near or to the level that would pass the scrutiny of spec fuel, despite the fact that they may be working on dimestore budgets. If you can afford the luxury and it's absolute guarantees of finished product quality that you seek, I would suggest that you establish a procedural regimen, produce what you have reason to believe is a well-crafted product and then submit the sample to the testing methods established in D-6751. You'll quickly surprise yourself at how easily that standard can be neared or met in a meticulous homebrewer's environment. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 10:35 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test Todd, the 70*F batch was mostly separated within about 5-10 minutes but didn't really reach completion until the end of 25 minutes. thirty seconds to a minute??? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality says Then let it settle. The biodiesel should separate from the water in half an hour or less, with amber biodiesel on top and milky water below. at 140 it separated right quick. I understand how volume could have such a big effect, bubbles of the fuel seemed to form and get stuck on one another's surface tension while the separation was happening. only problem is that 150mL is just about all of my test batch so I won't be able to perform the test multiple times and vary the parameters. what I was trying to suggest here is that there are some factors that drastically affect the results that aren't even mentioned such that they can be controlled. John Appal Energy wrote: John, It is reproducable if you use larger volumes than the 8 ml total volume that you're using. A couple of fluid ounces would be more appropriate. The method suggests ~150 ml, or approximately five
[Biofuel] test batches and the JtF quality test
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality doesn't have enough information to be reproducible. separation time seems to be based on a number of factors including but probably not limited to: ambient temperature initial temperature of the H2O and the FAME I made a test batch yesterday and then performed the quality test on it a number of times varying different factors, I did 2 with the coldest water that would come out of my tap and 2 with the hottest water that would come out of my tap, and one with appx 70 degree water (cold was about 55 degrees F and hot was about 140 degrees F) I also did 2 that sat in a bath of 140 degree water while they were separating, ambient temperature in my kitchen is approximately 60 degrees F. the two that sat in the 140 degree water had separated completely in less than 2 minutes, the 2 that were made with the hot water had completely separated (less cleanly than the ones in the hot water bath) in 18 minutes, the one that was made with 70 degree water separated fully in 25 minutes, and the ones that were made with the cold water separated into three layers of approximately the same volume one that was straw yellow and slightly milky one that was a much lighter yellow and much more milky and one that was milky white. these were all prepared in 13x100mm culture tubes with 4mL of H2O and 4mL of FAME. I also presume, although I have not yet tested this that the contents of one's tap water and the shape of one's container make a difference in the results. John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] vacuum dehydration methanol recovery
lubricant and lubricate frequently? John Leif Forer wrote: Manuel, Nick, Doug and All~ According to Mark Schofield (who originally recommended the pricey $7,000 BOC Edwards vacuum pump) and Doug Foskey, methanol fouls the pump's lubricating oil causing them to rapidly break. Sounds like an oil-free vacuum pump is what we're after. My guess is that the Thomas 1020 that Manuel found is an oil-free diaphragm pump. Do you know? Any thoughts about material compatibility (will the methanol break down any of the components) and safety (like explosions) with this pump? My thinking is that if we use a liquid trap like Nick, Ian, and Dale the pump should be somewhat protected. ~leif On Dec 15, 2004, at 2:50 AM, Manuel del Rio wrote: Leif, About an affordable vacuum pump. I found a pressure/vacuum pump from Thomas Compressors model Thomas 1020 being sold by Amazon for U$179.99 The features from Amazon's description: * Lightweight, portable, quiet running * 3/4 HP - Tankless Compressor * Use for pressure or vacuum * Fully adjustable valve 0-100 psi. * Delivers 2.17 cfm @ 100 psi - or 27 Hg. It is a lower capacity vacuum pump compared with those used in Ian's or Dale's but maybe good for those of us who can not easily find such good and suited surplus equipment. Also, Todd (Appal Energy) posted an url: www.bocedwards.com and provided some vacuum pump specs which you can find in the mailing list archives message #25964 I find difficult to calculate the time required to evacuate the methanol because besides the temperature and vacuum pressure, the time will probably depend strongly on the volume of air/gases to be evacuated (hoses, not filled tank volume) and how well sealed is the equipment. However, experienced people in this list could probably estimate if this pump would take longer or shorter than other pumps they have tried. Please let me know if you find something better. Best regards, Manuel --- - At 08:28 PM 12/14/2004, you wrote: Thanks for the response Luc. I am familiar with Dale's reactor but there's not enough info on his site to answer my questions. I'm still hoping someone on this list will bite . . . ~leif On Dec 14, 2004, at 8:04 PM, Legal Eagle wrote: G'day Leif;. - Original Message - From: Leif Forer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 9:22 AM Subject: [Biofuel] vacuum dehydration methanol recovery Wondering if you can help me with a couple of vacuum pump questions. I am building a reactor out of a 150 gallon vessel and want to use vacuum to dry incoming waste oil, dry washed biodiesel, and recover methanol from glycerin and biodiesel. I am trying to figure out what vacuum pump I need (at least the ball park specifications) and find an affordable source. Have you see this ?http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#touchfree Follow the link to Dale's explanation of his set-up http://home.swbell.net/scrof/Biod_Proc.html He is the guy who originally used a water heater as a reactor. Luc On safety: Do you think I need to be concerned about getting an explosion proof or totally enclosed fan cooled vacuum pump? Even though the system will have to be closed and I'll have a liquid trap? Technical: Any idea what the free air CFM @ 25 Hg would have to be to evacuate 20 gallons of methanol from a 150 gallon tank in a reasonable amount of time (1 to 2 hours)? ~leif ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [QUAR]Re: [Biofuel] E-mail account security warning.
John Guttridge FRANCISCO wrote: Pls confirm security warning and email Thank you in advance Chico Ramos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear user, the management of Wwia.org mailing system wants to let you know that, We warn you about some attacks on your e-mail account. Your computer may contain viruses, in order to keep your computer and e-mail account safe, please, follow the instructions. For details see the attached file. For security purposes the attached file is password protected. Password is 00122. Best wishes, The Wwia.org team http://www.wwia.org ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] reply to Gregory
prone to roiling over. John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do not put two barrels of B100 on the roof of your car. The weight would exceed the limits of the roof before the additional stress of pot-holes would send the barrels crashing down on you. Have a class I hitch installed on your car and rent/purchase a light duty utility trailer to haul the barrels. Mike Gregory wrote: Meanwhile, my new misery is trying to find a way to get my car to hold two barrels of B100, for it's delivery cost is way up there, at $50 a drop off, and the only way to offset that is to get two barrels instead of one. So I'm looking into a roof rack with two aero dynamic hard luggage carriers, fit with auxiliary tanks, 4 smaller tanks in the trunk; one on both sides rear of the wheel wells, in the space between the underside of the trunk lid, reaching down into the depths of the rocker panels, another under the rear self tray, spanning across the rear of the trunk, and one shaped as a spare, in, where else? The spare tire compartment under the trunk floor. These all will have to be linked by steel braided rubber hoses to the main tank, or the main tank will have to have a suction pump, hose / holster / nozzle / activator for scavenging oil from all these different cells. I will also have to install heavy duty air bag suspension supplements inside the rear coil springs to keep the rear end from dragging and grating the bumper and trunk off the car. I will then procure a space saver spare, deflate it half way, place it on the drivers seat, and use it to nurse my aching butt, which by then will really hurt, cause all this BS really burns my ass! 8-D Seriously, I'm in Bergen County, Hackensack NJ, USA, and have no place what so ever to hide a barrel of anything, so, if there is any co-op activities around here that anyone is aware of, or someone is getting the stuff delivered to their garage and wouldn't mind ordering and storing, for a fee, another barrel for someone else to help cut the delivery costs, please let me know. Thanks. Gregory ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] space heaters used with WVO
biodiesel in and I looked at this: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me7.html I am more than a little concerned that I might ignite my methanol vapors with it though. anyone have any suggestions? I was considering putting the thing outside and using it to heat water which I would then use to carry the heat inside (or perhaps some other fluid like oil that vaporizes much hotter than water but maybe oil is too much of a fire hazard) also it seems like I could make it just as well in a used 55gal drum instead of the water heater tank they are using just needs to be a box that gets hot right? John ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
wash in first stage settling, was [Re: [Biofuel] Filtering before washing]
the glyc is something that was suggested to me several times. how do people feel about that in general? Ken Provost wrote: on 11/30/04 4:54 PM, Legal Eagle at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Today, while pondering my reactor/wash tank set up, I wondered about whether or not there would be any benefit to run the settled but yet unwashed BD through a fuel filter once the glycerine has been drained. Any thoughts accompanied by explanation? The problem I see is that anything which might precipitate out of solution (and thus be caught by a filter) would always precipitate BETTER after a water wash. Filtering before water wash probly wouldn't catch much of anything. OTOH, if you add water while the glycerine layer is still in there (as I always do), you DO precipitate out any gums that were still in the oil, and those might be caught in a filter. Adding water, and mixing very gently, while the glycerine is still present is a very effective way to get a lot of crap (soap, glycerides, alkali, excess alcohol, gums) into the glycerine layer and out of the picture before risking emulsification in the water wash. (The glycerine suppresses emulsion). The few times I've skipped that step (one just recently), the soap level in the water wash was much higher than usual.. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] usual quantities
depends on what quantities you buy them in :) I bought red devil lye in an 510g package at the grocery store. I have located a source of 50lbs bags of the stuff at a chemical supply for when I start producing wholesale. my experience is that although the stuff is really hydrophilic (loves water) all you have to do to keep it dry in my climate (upstate NY, USA) is keep the lid on tight as much of the time as possible (don't leave it off once you are done measuring) methanol comes in 355ml (12oz) containers, 5 gallon buckets, 55 gallon drums, again, really hydrophilic, again just keep the lid on all the time when you are not actively pouring some out. haven't bought any sulphuric acid, couldn't answer that one. everyone keeps telling me though that I don't need it :) I don't think that you have to worry about using the whole package and you are likely to have to make a really large quantity in order to make all the amounts line up and get your ratios right. John rbarr8 wrote: After reading many posts on making my own bio-diesel I came to the conclusion it might be best to use the full package of lye rather than opening a package and then trying to seal it from moisture. What quantities do lye, Sulpheric Acid, and Methanol come in? Thanks, roger ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Safety of Dispensing from 55 Gal. Drums tocarboy safely
supply are very helpful. to ground things to code (US NEC 2002) you must use mechanical connections like screw terminals that are torqued to the proper torque spec per the manufacturer (which is ultimately per UL) I would highly recommend it. also if you are in the US and your house is grounded to code the electrician who did it was required to leave an outside accessible means for grounding other things to the system, you can usually find this as a piece of #6 copper wire (strip the paint off if you have painted the house since then) that runs from the meter into the ground (if you dig it up you will find an 8' ground rod) it is required to be bonded to your breaker panel with a piece of #6 so you can follow that out to find the ground rod for your house. you can attach to that using a split bolt which is just what it sounds like it is usually brass and it has a notch down the center so that when you take the nut off you can slip it around a wire that you do not have any free ends on and then slip in the wire that you are trying to ground. make sure that you are using hardware that is compatible with the metals that you are grounding to, improper compatibility can result in corrosion and will degrade your ground over time. you may find when it matters most that you aren't really grounded at all. always call your local version of dig safe (your utility company will know who that is) if you intend to drive a ground rod, wouldn't want to hit a gas line. here in Ithaca, NY one can obtain 55gal drums of 99% methanol for $2.22/gal +$20/run (up to 5 drums) to have it delivered, if you have a truck you can pick up up to two drums without the special hazmat placards and license. Jonathan Howell wrote: Kevin- We use this set up to empty 55 gal Drums... Most Drums have a large fill hole and a small vent hole. Most hardware stores carry brass (spark proof) fittings that will attach to these holes. I try to avoid the pvc fittings, they can snap off when tipping the drum over if they are bumped. The large one we use came with a valve already attached. The small fitting has a vacuum breaker inside. With the drum upright, install both fittings. Please, always use spark proof tools. A spark around methanol is verry dangerous. I once saw a fire started when a guy dropped his wrench to the floor into another pile of tools. All it took was one spark. Use a lot of teflon tape on the threads, the methanol is so thin that it will leak around the rough threads. Ensure the valve is closed as sometimes people will play with the valves in the store. Lay the drum on its side with the vent hole uppermost. When you open the valve on the large attachment, the vacuum breaker will open to allow flow. Grounding... I can't think of the manufacturer...someone else on the list may know. It looks like a very small c-clamp, with the exception that the threaded part has a jagged, sharp set of teeth to cut through paint, gunk, and dirt build up on the drum. It attaches to the bottom rim. The wire is welded to the clamp at one end and to the grounding rod on the other. They are very cheap (less than a dollar) and are guaranteed to work. As you know, a good ground is very important because of static build up when flowing a volatile fluid into or out of a vapor space like a drum. Sorry if this was too simplistic. I never know how much detail is too much detail... By the way, How much does a 55 gallon drum of pure methanol cost in your area? Also, what is your area? ps(to the list) What does everyone else pay for their chemicals? Please include size of product and area of country(us) . Jonathan From: Kevin Shea [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Safety of Dispensing from 55 Gal. Drums tocarboy safely Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 01:05:34 -0500 After 11 months of research of biodiesel and pondering methanol safety, I have not come across any recent scenarios of dispensing methanol from a 55 gal metal drum to a BD methoxide processor (carboy) with only one exception. (On Journey to Forever's site) One chap using a 55 gal poly drum of methanol with a special bung cap fitted with a tire valve plug /shaft. The listed method is from memory, but I believe it is ...Applying compressed air to the tire plug will create pressure within the drum to exhaust pressured output (methanol) or pump methanol to the methoxide container etc. To purchase a 55 gal. drum or drums of methanol is a vast saving compared to buying meth. in 5 gal pails here on the northeast coast of the US. Methanol is your most expensive raw material when it comes to biodiesel production. My first question is 1.) How to dispense the Methanol from a 55 gal drum to my carboy safely using approved drum equipment? Model number of hand pumps helps to include with reply!! etc.? How do you ground the drum? I can make a ground 55 gal drum clamp
Re: [Biofuel] diesel generation from waste plastic
http://www.tve.org/ho/doc.cfm?aid=346lang=English Keith Addison wrote: Hello Todd There's a company in Japan that has been doing this for some years, a patented process, result of a 10-year high-tech research program. I'm not sure if the technology is the same as what you're working on, but the result seems to be. They market the technology and the full set-up. Best wishes Keith I am working on a brand new proprietary process that will permanently remove all of our waste plastic problems forever. This new process cracks the plastic through gentle infra red heating and once the plastic has hit its melting point, the fuels that it was originally made of, break down and seperate out. The process creates 0 (zero) emmissions as it is a 100 % airless system. The unit has a 1.5 megawatt generator attatched to it and uses the residual flare gas and some LPG that is created to run the generator that in turn powers the entire system. The process crushes and chips the plastic, melts the oil, seperates the oils through a refractionization process, and finally stores the oils out. I can have two choices. I can use the multifuel generator and run 900 kilowatts of electricity to the grid 24/7 or I can not run the generator (only off of the flare gas and LPG to run the system) and the remaining fuel can be sold to the market. Not only will it accept and crack all types of plastics(I'll include a list of plastic below for those of you that are interested), but it will also accept any type of oil from vegetable oil to WVO, automotive oil(any hydrocarbon based oil) Soon we will be able to crack car tires!! Each car tire will create approximately 2.5 gallons of diesel fuel. We all know the huge problem that we have with waste plastic and waste automotive oil and car tires.. I have the solution and will be building a small facility to prove the unit within the next 6 months. This fuel could be mixed with biodiesel and our country could soon be 100 % self sufficient with our diesel fuel requirements. Take a look at the oils and types of plastic that we can crack. Remember 0 emissions and millions of tonnes of plastic removed from landfill sites! Plastics that can be cracked: #1 through 7 plastics polyethylenetelephthalate,polybutylene terethanalate,polyphenylene sulfide,polyphenylene oxide, acrylonitrle-butadiene-styrene,polycarbonate,ployoxymethylene, polymethyl-methacrylate,synthetic rubber,polyethylene,polyproylene polystyrene, general purpose polystyrene, expanded polystyrene, cross-linking polyethylene, nylon 66, nylon 6,polyamide, polyvinyl chloride (PVC) Waste oils that can be cracked: Waste lubricating oils engine lubricating oils industrial lubricating oils electrical usage oils heat treatment oils residue oils from refineries shipping fuel oil waste ashphalt and associatd oils any and all hydrocarbon based oils Todd Wootton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Office (905)473-5646 Cellular (705)794-1264 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] PVC
asking how to identify plastics and looking like an idiot. the question about the PVC compatibility remains though. John Guttridge wrote: I was given some really great pumps that were previously used for H2O the pump bodies seem to be made out of PVC. I checked the compatibility website at http://www.coleparmer.com/techinfo/ChemComp.asp and it seems to indicate compatibility with the NAOH and the methanol no problem however it may be degraded by the oil or the mixture. does anyone have any experience with PVC for this stuff? there is no recycling mark that I can find on the pump body anywhere is there any really good way of identifying it other than yup it sure looks like PVC? what about chemically welded PVC (using that MEK based PVC cement) will it still have the same chemical resistance? thanks list John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] He talks to God
freed Poland from it's jewish problem or we freed the Iraqis from communism when we installed sadam in the first place (don't forget our installation of the taliban too). what a nice guy he is. don't forget how hard the work is (it's hard work, did he mention that it was hard work?). John Legal Eagle wrote: Of course if the ever reverend Heir Bush WERE a Christian he would know that ye are therefore dead to the law by the body of Christ Romans 7:4 and that all these things no longer apply :) but he seems to have missed that class. He seems to have missed the part about where Jesus said that the earmark of one of His followers was that we should have love one toward another, John 13:35. Maybe he is just loving the Iraqis to death huh?-all sarcasm and black humour intended. Luc - Original Message - From: Mel Riser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 4:50 PM Subject: [Biofuel] He talks to God I figgered' since he talks to God and Jesus so much he might help me in my study of the Bible. Wonder whut kinda answer's I'll get back? mel Dear President Bush, Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you and understand why you would propose and support a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage. As you said in the eyes of God marriage is based between a man a woman. I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18: 22 clearly states it to be an abomination. . . End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them. 1. Leviticus 25: 44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? 2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21: 7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? 3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev. 15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. 4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev. 1: 9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? 5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35: 2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it? 6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11: 10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there degrees of abomination? 7. Lev. 21: 20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here? 8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die? 9. I know from Lev. 11: 6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? 10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19: 19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24: 10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20: 14) I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, as well, you have a direct line to God so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Mel --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 11/1/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net
Re: [Biofuel] He talks to God
I hope that the facetious tone had come through in my incredulous remarks and that you don't think I was serious. I understand it is dark humor but I was more intending to poke fun at the idiots who put faith in this man than in the actual situation in Iraq. I love my country which is why I fought the good fight to prevent four more years of this man. He is the worst thing for America in my lifetime. John Hakan Falk wrote: John, Lethal also, for many of the young boys who tries to do the liberation. It is also very lethal for the Iraqi population, with around NINE Iraqi's who is killed for every SINGLE American, not included the ones who die from related sicknesses and malnutrition. The former wealthy Iraq is now and since the first Gulf war struck by poverty and hunger. I saw on CNN a group of American soldiers who had a service for some fallen comrades. Could not avoid to think about the family's and friends to the innocent and less innocent Iraqi's who die as victims of the occupation. In this is not included all the victims who not die, but will be decapitated for the rest of their life. All of it is much more personal and difficult, than we can imagine, when looking at it from a safe distance and captured by Television, which never can give us the real notion of what actually is happening. The sorrows must be overwhelming for the directly involved parties on both sides. It is hard realities, not only the work and Bush carry the responsibility for it. It is for sure blood on his hands, both US and Iraqi, and that must be very difficult. I guess that God already mentioned it and gave his forgiveness and blessings, in their discussions. Hakan At 01:20 AM 11/8/2004, you wrote: no, he is freeing the Iraqis, that is loving right? just like Hitler freed Poland from it's jewish problem or we freed the Iraqis from communism when we installed sadam in the first place (don't forget our installation of the taliban too). what a nice guy he is. don't forget how hard the work is (it's hard work, did he mention that it was hard work?). John Legal Eagle wrote: Of course if the ever reverend Heir Bush WERE a Christian he would know that ye are therefore dead to the law by the body of Christ Romans 7:4 and that all these things no longer apply :) but he seems to have missed that class. He seems to have missed the part about where Jesus said that the earmark of one of His followers was that we should have love one toward another, John 13:35. Maybe he is just loving the Iraqis to death huh?-all sarcasm and black humour intended. Luc - Original Message - From: Mel Riser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 4:50 PM Subject: [Biofuel] He talks to God I figgered' since he talks to God and Jesus so much he might help me in my study of the Bible. Wonder whut kinda answer's I'll get back? mel Dear President Bush, Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you and understand why you would propose and support a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage. As you said in the eyes of God marriage is based between a man a woman. I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18: 22 clearly states it to be an abomination. . . End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them. 1. Leviticus 25: 44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? 2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21: 7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? 3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev. 15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. 4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev. 1: 9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? 5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35: 2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it? 6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11: 10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there degrees of abomination? 7. Lev. 21: 20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some
Re: [Biofuel] Kerry Won
neighborhoods. I was in Ohio for the election and the precinct that I was working (Bexley) was a rich neighborhood and they used the electronic voting machines. in the poor neighborhoods (2000s Cleveland ave) they were using the punch cards. Keith Addison wrote: When they say that most of the spoiled ballots are from poor, minority areas, etc., are they saying that those poor, disadvantaged people are too stupid to know how to vote? That's the kind of feeling I get when I read this article, and if I was a black man, I think I would be offended by the insinuation that my ballot was spoiled because I didn't know how to vote. That's not what it's saying Jeff, quite the opposite. You didn't read the links. It really didn't matter whether they knew how to vote or not, they were excluded no matter what they did. Best wishes Keith Original Message Follows From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Kerry Won Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 01:03:11 +0900 http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1104-36.htm Published on Thursday, November 4, 2004 by TomPaine.com Kerry Won by Greg Palast Kerry won. Here's the facts. I know you don't want to hear it. You can't face one more hung chad. But I don't have a choice. As a journalist examining that messy sausage called American democracy, it's my job to tell you who got the most votes in the deciding states. Tuesday, in Ohio and New Mexico, it was John Kerry. Most voters in Ohio thought they were voting for Kerry. CNN's exit poll showed Kerry beating Bush among Ohio women by 53 percent to 47 percent. Kerry also defeated Bush among Ohio's male voters 51 percent to 49 percent. Unless a third gender voted in Ohio, Kerry took the state. So what's going on here? Answer: the exit polls are accurate. Pollsters ask, Who did you vote for? Unfortunately, they don't ask the crucial, question, Was your vote counted? The voters don't know. Here's why. Although the exit polls show that most voters in Ohio punched cards for Kerry-Edwards, thousands of these votes were simply not recorded. This was predictable and it was predicted. [See TomPaine.com, An Election Spoiled Rotten, November 1.] http://wwia.org/pipermail/biofuel/Week-of-Mon-20041101/002260.html Once again, at the heart of the Ohio uncounted vote game are, I'm sorry to report, hanging chads and pregnant chads, plus some other ballot tricks old and new. The election in Ohio was not decided by the voters but by something called spoilage. Typically in the United States, about 3 percent of the vote is voided, just thrown away, not recorded. When the bobble-head boobs on the tube tell you Ohio or any state was won by 51 percent to 49 percent, don't you believe it ... it has never happened in the United States, because the total never reaches a neat 100 percent. The television totals simply subtract out the spoiled vote. And not all vote spoil equally. Most of those votes, say every official report, come from African American and minority precincts. (To learn more, click here.) http://www.civilrightsproject.harvard.edu/research/electoral_reform/r e sidual_ballot.php We saw this in Florida in 2000. Exit polls showed Gore with a plurality of at least 50,000, but it didn't match the official count. That's because the official, Secretary of State Katherine Harris, excluded 179,855 spoiled votes. In Florida, as in Ohio, most of these votes lost were cast on punch cards where the hole wasn't punched through completely-leaving a 'hanging chad,'-or was punched extra times. Whose cards were discarded? Expert statisticians investigating spoilage for the government calculated that 54 percent of the ballots thrown in the dumpster were cast by black folks. (To read the report from the U.S. Civil Rights Commission, click here .) http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2004/elect04.pdf And here's the key: Florida is terribly typical. The majority of ballots thrown out (there will be nearly 2 million tossed out from Tuesday's election) will have been cast by African American and other minority citizens. So here we go again. Or, here we don't go again. Because unlike last time, Democrats aren't even asking Ohio to count these cards with the not-quite-punched holes (called undervotes in the voting biz). Ohio is one of the last states in America to still use the vote-spoiling punch-card machines. And the Secretary of State of Ohio, J. Kenneth Blackwell, wrote before the election, the possibility of a close election with punch cards as the state's primary voting device invites a Florida-like calamity. But this week, Blackwell, a rabidly partisan Republican, has warmed up to the result of sticking with machines that have a habit of eating Democratic votes. When asked if he feared being this year's Katherine Harris, Blackwell noted that Ms. Fix-it's efforts landed her a seat in Congress. Exactly how many
Re: [Biofuel] Pump Trucks
old septic system truck as it's tanker. I would look for a used attack pumper. ours is a regular pickup truck that has a 500 gallon tank and a 500GPM pump on it (if you leave the full hand line on it you have about enough water in the tank to fill up the hose before your supply needs to be there vol of the hand line is 326 gallons) and an excellent tool body at that. also lots of those things are diesel so you can run it on the good stuff. there is usually a big opening at the rear of the truck that lets you dump all of your tank in a matter of a few seconds (may not be useful but that would be a good method of dealing with tailgaters) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemcategory=63735item=4501710160rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemcategory=63735item=2498289628rd=1 if you want to spend the $$$ for the good stuff: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemcategory=63735item=4500726325rd=1 here is a septic truck: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemcategory=63743item=4501635747rd=1ssPageName=WDVW Legal Eagle wrote: One would suspect that any company that deals with waste removal, as in outhouses, would have that info as that is what they use, pump trucks, yuk! However, there are gizmos out there specifically made for WVO pumping from a 12V outlet, but that would depend on what kind of volume you are speaking of, definetly not pump truck volume. Luc - Original Message - From: Jeremy Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 11:34 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Pump Trucks Does anyone have any information on pump trucks to pump WVO like who makes them or where they can be acquired. Or even plans on how to convert a regular truck to one? Jeremy ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] PVC
the pump bodies seem to be made out of PVC. I checked the compatibility website at http://www.coleparmer.com/techinfo/ChemComp.asp and it seems to indicate compatibility with the NAOH and the methanol no problem however it may be degraded by the oil or the mixture. does anyone have any experience with PVC for this stuff? there is no recycling mark that I can find on the pump body anywhere is there any really good way of identifying it other than yup it sure looks like PVC? what about chemically welded PVC (using that MEK based PVC cement) will it still have the same chemical resistance? thanks list John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] it all comes down to this
My team astonished even me last night when we knocked on 535 doors in 5 short hours. we identified nearly 75 more votes last night that we will turn out today. Kennedy won on less than 1 vote in every precinct, we are expecting a minimum of 150 voters in this precinct that are turned out as a result of our efforts. In 17 hours the state of Ohio will have fired George W. Bush. It will have been done on the resolve and spirit of the volunteers who have given up everything to do what is right for our country, and for the world. Those volunteers are powered by the spirits of their loved ones who are only here in their thoughts. Please be with me, as I need all of the strength that I can get. John ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] 38 short hours to go
is 5:30 AM and I am awake and starting day three of the most exciting and powerful social interaction of my life. For those of you who don't know I am in Columbus OH volunteering on MoveonPAC's leave no voter behind campaign. This campaign is the most organized chaos I have ever experienced. When I arrived on Saturday morning I was handed a list of 440 names and told that they were my precinct and that I was to go out and knock on every door, find volunteers where possible to help, and make sure that every Kerry supporter got to the polls on election day. after a strong day of knocking on approximately 200 doors, talking with nearly 50 residents, and identifying my first 25 kerry supporters and 4 volunteers I came back to the office to enter my data, after meeting with my organizer I discovered that I was duplicating efforts with another woman who had already arranged 10 other volunteers and had them out canvasing. she was, however, unreachable. I pushed on because I knew that these 72 hours were the most important of the election, there wasn't time to slow down and figure out what was going on; it would figure itself out. the Columbus dispatch ran a poll yesterday that split oho right down the middle, out of 2880 voters there was an 8 voter divide, it is being said that the area bound by interstate 270 is going to decide this years election. everyone is here, ACT, the republicans, the sierra club, moveon, the DNC, we are all working the same streets, we know that bush's camp is organized and relentless and we are vying for the same electoral votes, we need to be strong and dedicated. halfway through day 2 I finally met my precinct leader, she and I are now co-leaders. for perspective I want to describe the demographics of my precinct. in the south west there is ferndale place and mayfield place, they are the north east edge of an incredibly poor neighborhood. there is very little education, the cars are from the '80s and are mostly broken down, accident victims that barely move any more. then we move north and east and we get into the student neighborhood, capital university's students occupy nearly half of Charles st, village creek drive, Sheridan ave, college ave, and the corresponding cross streets up to main (3,500 feet) the students for a sort of gradient with the middle class, cars are newer but a few years old, the lawns and houses are taken care of, there are Bexley soccer signs in the yards, this continues all the way to eauclaire ave (2600 feet from the western edge of my precinct). on the northern border is main street. on the other side of main is one of the most affluent neighborhoods that I have ever been in. all the cars are new, the houses are palatial, everyone looks like the women cook in heels and the men carry around billfolds with wads of $100 bills in them, even the dogs look perfect. it is the most striking divide I have ever seen. you can stand on main street and look south and the first house is a small brick building with 4 apartments in it and then turn to the north and the first house is larger than the apartment building but it is only a single family. my co-leader lives just north of main. so we are finally together, I spent 5 hours yesterday (while our volunteers were out knocking on doors) collecting the list of all of the doors in Bexley (our precinct) that are likely to be fruitful and marking it up with all of the data that everyone has collected. now it comes time for probably the most important day of this whole campaign. this is our last chance to identify kerry supporters before election day. we have 550 doors to hit and I am trying to bring our team together and hit every one of them between 4PM and 9PM. we have an excellent team, renee (my co-leader) has been at this for three weeks and it really seems like she is worn out so I bring fresh energy to the team. there is a ton of energy on this campaign. it is driven by young people who care, I have never seen so many of them in one place before. even though the work is hard and success isn't guaranteed, and no one has slept in weeks, everyone seems really excited and alive. they are alive in a way that I haven't found in other groups, we know that there is something wrong with the world and we are doing everything that we can to do something about that. everyone here seems convinced that I know what I am doing but the secret is that I am driven by boundless raw enthusiasm. I have no idea what is going on. all I know is that four more years of the same would be a catastrophe and although the majority of America feels the same way as I do the ones that agree are less likely to get out and vote tomorrow, that is why I am awake at 5:30 AM after working from 8:00AM until 11:30PM yesterday and 9:00 until 5:30 on Saturday (followed by a rally from 7:00 until 10:00). that is why I drove 8 hours to come here and do this. that is why I haven't slept
[Biofuel] second batch results
it to be clear after a day of settling but before wash, I have produced two batches now (one using the two stage and one using the pelly recipe with some minor modifications from the infopop list archives) and both are sort of honey yellow and opaque from cloudiness, I thought that meant that my reaction was incomplete on the first batch so I simply left in on the shelf and tried again but I got the same results so I am thinking that the clear results should come after washing. thanks John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Gasoline Prices
the army is using B20 in many of it's vehicles. he said that when he worked on vehicles in the army they were largely multi fuel, they would burn basically anything that you put in them. Legal Eagle wrote: Not to want to satrt any conspiracy stuff, although the last time diesel went haywire it was just prior to the invasion of Iraq, far exceeding the price of petrol and that was in Spring. Doesn't the war machine run primarily on diesel and it's derivatives ? Luc - Original Message - From: Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Gasoline Prices The price of Gasoline stayed about the same.BUT - Last week, the price of DinoDiesel, jumped over $0.20 a gal in one day, from $1.95 gal to $2.19, I'm in the process of trying to find out if this is due to the jump in heating oil use or if Winterized DinoDiesel finally started being delivered. Greg H. - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 22:33 Subject: [Biofuel] Gasoline Prices We're a week away from election day, and I've noticed that gasoline prices have suddenly dropped. Normally, we see some fluctuation in the gasoline price during the week. Since Friday, however, the marquees have remained steady. Is this coincidence? Is it a phenomenon peculiar to B.C.? Or is there something else going on right now? robert luis rabello ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Kids Opt for Kerry
whole America, love it or leave it thing. our country was founded on dissent and political discourse. the thing that makes this country great is that all opinions are welcomed, without them we have Nazi Germany. or America during the red scare... or America during the terrorist scare. I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. -Voltaire [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: you missed Republicans don't let their kids watch Nickelodeon, they have more sense than that ;-) which skews the polls to primarily democrats. I can't prove that claim, but it sounds good. That channel (among others) will turn there minds to mush. My kids prefer the wings channel, wich I bet would have given completely different results. Sorry to see after three years, you still feel it's necesary to attack and drive away those with opposing (not necessarily wrong) viewpoints. somebody had to speak up, or folks will think this is the anti-bush, anti-american list, not the biofuel list. = = = Original message = = = Me thinks you missed the point Steve. When you say Of course they believe whatever their parents do at that age. you corroborate that the majority of parents of those children are supposedly going to vote for John Kerry. That was, after all, the point of the poll - that children are perhaps a reasonably accurate barometer of the adult voting population. As for the rest of your remarks? Sorry to see that after three years of so many mistakes and errors in judgement you still believe that a myopically focused zealot who disregards reality and real world appraisals at every opportunity and corner is to be deemed more highly than those who examine all facets of a scenario and are capable of balancing decisions based upon broader and longer range consequences. Being resolute yet consistantly wrong are not quallities to be highly prized - no more for leader of the school grounds sandbox than a country. Mr. Bush reflects the contemporary, corporate, American mindset - quarterly results to impress stockholders, not long term profits that insure stability. Unfortunately, his repeat quarterly performances are so dismal as to warrant his ouster. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 9:29 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Kids Opt for Kerry Good thing we don't let kids vote. Of course they believe whatever their parents do at that age. That's why we let them develop brains before we let them vote. Republicans don't let their kids watch Nickelodeon, they have more sense than that ;-) Here's hoping for 4 years of anyone but Kerry. Hank the Angry Drunken Dwarf maybe? Won't be the first time a dead man got voted in for office. = = = Original message = = = Kids Opt for Kerry in Bellwether Online Poll October 20, 2004 by Reuter http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1020-08.htm LOS ANGELES - The kids have spoken, and it's Sen. John Kerry with a convincing victory over President Bush on Nov. 2. An unusual opinion poll that has correctly predicted the winner of the last four presidential elections has given Democratic challenger Kerry 57 percent against 43 percent for Bush, according to results released on Wednesday. The Nickelodeon cable channel, better known for programs SpongeBob Squarepants and Jimmy Neutron, conducted Kids Vote, an online survey of almost 400,000 children on Tuesday. The latest Reuters/Zogby poll showed Bush and Kerry in a dead heat two weeks before the Nov. 2 election. Other polls also showed them in a statistical tie or Bush holding a slim lead. Nickelodeon, a unit of Viacom Inc., has organized its poll every election since 1988, and has a 100 percent record of picking the winner. The 'Kids' Vote' seems to work as a good barometer of the actual presidential vote because, developmentally, kids between the ages of two and 11 share the same opinions and outlooks as their parents, said Cyma Zarghami, president of Nickelodeon Television. The survey was the final step in a yearlong political awareness campaign on Nickelodeon. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Sent by ePrompter, the premier email notification software. Free download at http://www.ePrompter.com. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___
Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results
bottom, a thick white layer in the middle and a milky yellow layer on the top. interestingly my siphoned off biodiesel separated again over the following night into a perfectly clear yellow layer on the bottom and a milky yellow layer on the top. I have posted some images here: www.lightlink.com/jonny5/biofuel/ you will have to excuse the complete lack of processing on the images, I don't have my tools installed on the new laptop yet. I think that you are right that I am starting in the wrong place here. I am going to do another batch this afternoon using the pelly method and see how it works out. John Guttridge. Keith Addison wrote: Hello John what kind of a methanol recovery rate can I expect once I start doing that? Depends which stage you do it at, and what you want to do with the by-product. Easiest is taking back the methanol straight after processing, before separating the by-product, but this is inclined to cause a reverse reaction in the biodiesel. Still, you can get a lot back before that happens, especially with a vacuum. Otherwise, about 70% of the excess methanol ends up in the glycerine by-product, and about 30% in the biodiesel. A simple condenser will get most of the 30% back from the biodiesel without too much trouble. As for the by-product fraction, if you have a market for potassium fertiliser and/or industrial-grade glycerine (about 80-90% pure) which makes it worth the cost and time, it's best to separate the by-product into it's components first, which is hard (or impossible) once the methanol's been removed. After separation the methanol is left in the glycerine fraction and can be removed then. See: http://journeytoforever.org//biodiesel_glycsep.html Separating glycerine/FFAs Whether separated or not not, I'm not sure how much vacuum you'd need, but with heating alone the by-product or the separated glycerine would have to go to about 150 deg C to get most of the methanol back. We found it's not really economical to go much beyond about 105 deg C, which does get a lot back, but far from all of it. A better way is to use a thin-film evaporator, as Todd has recommended. I got the product of my first conversion this morning and it looks straw yellow but a bit cloudy, should I let it sit to clarify or should I wash it? Usually it's cloudy at first. It settles after a while. Ours is usually clear by the next day. will the cloudiness wash out? Yes. does that mean that my reaction is incomplete? Not necessarily. should I add more lye and methanol and reprocess? A better way of finding that out is this: Quality testing http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality should I have titrated in the first place? Well, I'd say yes. I still think you're starting in the wrong place. Up to you, of course. Best wishes Keith John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results
I got the product of my first conversion this morning and it looks straw yellow but a bit cloudy, should I let it sit to clarify or should I wash it? will the cloudiness wash out? does that mean that my reaction is incomplete? should I add more lye and methanol and reprocess? should I have titrated in the first place? John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] first batch of biodiesel
I appreciate the advice you have given me. my college chemistry classes taught me titration, not too difficult and not my reason for selecting the 2-stage process, after reading both recipes throughly I decided that there was not much more difficulty in the 2-stage process as long as you follow the directions carefully. I also agree with the author's assessment that the normal methods are sloppy chemistry and that pushing the reaction by removing the glycerin and then adding the last of the methoxide was a good idea. other than that (and the titration which didn't seem to be necessary for new oil which I am starting with the getting started page seems to think that the amount of lye necessary is pretty standard for pure unused oil) the two processes didn't seem much different. I am still however a novice so in light of all of that I would like to be told that I am wrong if I am. perhaps I will do the normal recipe after my two-stage completes and see what the difference in the results are. I already started my two stage and it seems to be working really well, after appx 16 minutes of settling I had a good ratio of BD/FAME to glycerin (considering that my reaction isn't complete yet). I will be siphoning off the FAME and re-reacting tonight, then washing starting tomorrow. I have some really good pictures of all of this and I am building a website including my whole process I will send a link to the list once it has completed tomorrow and I have written it all up. again, thanks so much for the advice and the welcome! John Guttridge Keith Addison wrote: Hello John, welcome You've had some good replies. Hello biofuels people, I am about to start making my first batch of biodiesel and I have a whole bunch of questions. in much of the literature it says that it is important that your reacting vessel be sealed to keep the fumes in but the logistics of how to do that while simultaneously stirring and measuring temperature aren't very well covered until you get into building a complicated reactor (probably not worth it for my 1L test batch) I want to make a jarful, does anyone have any good suggestions for fume management. I saw some mention of using a blender but it is not immediately apparent how one would maintain temperature while blending. I saw people throw out their price per gallon as being in the 40-75 cent range, what are people paying for methanol to be getting those prices? what portion of the methanol is reclaimed? I got my methanol from mcmaster carr for $43/5 gal, they haven't told me yet what it is going to cost to ship even though they promise to ship it today, I am expecting that it will be expensive because it is flammable and toxic. Lots of information on methanol in the list archives. http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Here's a previous message: Contact any bulk, liquid fuels distributor for 55 gallon lots or better. Any bulk propane distributorship should be willing to tell you where they get their methanol from. It's used as a carrier for water, aka a drying agent. For smaller lots speak with the management of any speed shop. Their customer base is largely dependant upon methanol availability. As well, if you know anyone who races, they may be willing to part with small quantities. Also look on the net for distributors of Sunoco Race Fuels. These distributors have access to unblended methanol in all quantities. Todd Swearingen Here's another: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/36249/ I was looking for an electric immersion heater but I couldn't find one for less than 5 gallons (too big to fit in a jar) should I do some sort of a double boiler on a hot plate??? Fishtank heaters are small enough, but the link Denis gave you is a better idea. what kind of a return should I expect, if I start with 1L of oil and 250mL of methanol and 6.25g of lye (planning on doing the 2-stage recipe) how much of each of the products should I expect? Not the place to start. It says at the top of that page: The two-stage processes are advanced methods, not for novices -- learn the basics thoroughly first. The single-stage base method is the place to start. Start here. Here being here: Where do I start? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start Not for novices: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#whystart If all you want to do is avoid having to learn how to do titration, you're cheating yourself. You need to know that, no matter what method you use. Best wishes Keith Thanks in advance for all of your help!! this is a great list! John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel
