[biofuel] Senior Research Project
Hello, I haven't submitted much to the list lately, but I would like any input you have on this subject: I'm preparing to do my senior research project/thesis in Chemistry this next semester (Spring 2003) and I have chosen to do it on biodiesel. My plan is to try different methods to see what can improve the biodiesel cloud point by trying different alcohols (such as my chemistry professor suggested the use of 1-methoxy-2-propanol as a possibility for the alcohol since it has a higher oxygen content.) I plan to experiment with different ratios of ethanol and methanol, and maybe trying isopropanol or another branched alcohol. There are other plans such as your basic viscosity, calorimetry and instrumental analysis that I have available in the lab. I have many options of where to go on this one, and will most likely narrow my options as the experiment goes along. Any suggestions would be appreciated. JEFF Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Chemistry internships in biodiesel/ethanol production
Hi, I have been a member of the biofuels for about a year now, and biofuels-biz list for about a month, as some of you may know, and I am currently a senior studying Chemistry and I am looking for an internship opportunity for next summer. I plan to do my senior research/thesis on something related to biodiesel or ethanol and believe that an internship in that area would assist me greatly, and would also like to work in this area to see if this is really where I would like to go with my career path. If any of you know of any opportunities, I would greatly appreciate any information. Please send any email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and use Chemistry Internship as the subject line so I don't end up deleting it (I have a problem with junkmail) Thank You, JEFF Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: Sinful Emissions
snip Is the math wrong, or am I missing something? To drive 12,000 miles, we would use approximately 400 gallons of gasoline. At 7.5 lbs/gallon, the gasoline used would weigh about 3000 pounds. How does 3000 pounds of gasoline emit 4.5 Metric tons of carbon? Motie 3000 lbs of gasoline ~ 1,300 kg = 1,300,000 g of octane (C8H18 @114 g/mol) of 1,300,000 g / 114 g/mol = 11403 mol C8H18 2 C8H18 + 25 O2 16 CO2 + 9 H2O 1 mol C8H18 = 8 mol CO2 (11403 x 8 = 91228 mol CO2) 1 mol CO2 = 44 g 401435 g CO2 = 401 KG = .4 metric tons this is if you figure that the average car gets 30 MPG! it would be closer to a metric ton if you figure only SUVs @ 13 mpg... but you are right, it does seem a bit far-fetched, unless they figure that amount of carbon released into the atmosphere by exhaust from drilling equipment used to drill for oil, and then the refineries burn off some of the unwanted stuff... and you know that the transport of that fuel to the gas station must be figured in because the oil tankers that haul the oil from Saudi Arabia, and the freight trains that haul it from the ports to the refineries, and the semis that haul the refined fuel to the gas stations. And what about the amount of CO2 we are giving off... the drivers of all the previously mentioned equipment must be giving off CO2... (I'm making a point about the absurdities of the conservationists and their studies.) JEFF Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Fwd: Spray Weeds With Vinegar?
What is the rate per acre of vinegar? How many gallons of 10-15% should be used if it is to replace roundup? Does anyone know? figuring that glacial acetic acid is 57% and it can be purchased in 55 gal drums and diluted down to 10-15% easily, the only thing I need to know now is what rate. thanks, JEFF snip Some home gardeners already use vinegar as a herbicide, and some garden stores sell vinegar pesticides. But no one has tested it scientifically until now. Agricultural Research Service scientists offer the first scientific evidence that it may be a potent weedkiller that is inexpensive and environmentally safe--perfect for organic farmers. ARS researchers Jay Radhakrishnan, John R. Teasdale and Ben Coffman in Beltsville, Md., tested vinegar on major weeds--common lamb's- quarters, giant foxtail, velvetleaf, smooth pigweed and Canada thistle--in greenhouse and field studies. They hand-sprayed the weeds with various solutions of vinegar, uniformly coating the leaves. The researchers found that 5- and 10-percent concentrations killed the weeds during their first two weeks of life. Older plants required higher concentrations of vinegar to kill them. At the higher concentrations, vinegar had an 85- to 100-percent kill rate at all growth stages. A bottle of household vinegar is about a 5- percent concentration. Canada thistle, one of the most tenacious weeds in the world, proved the most susceptible; the 5-percent concentration had a 100-percent kill rate of the perennial's top growth. The 20-percent concentration can do this in about 2 hours. snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] reverse osmosis of alcohol
Has anyone ever considered using reverse osmosis to remove water from alcohol? I am not talking about the distilled product which is 90% alcohol, but when it is done fermenting and contains 10-20% alcohol, would you be able to get enough water out to make it worthwhile to do so? I suppose that since water is H2O and is a very small molecule compared to ethanol CH3CH2OH, that there would be a permeable membrane selective enough to not let the alcohol pass through. JEFF Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] switchgrass to ethanol/other topics
How much starch or fermentable material is in switchgrass when it is fermented. I have been looking into switchgrass but they don't say how they process it to ethanol. Is there a cellulosis process for doing this? Corn for silage (whole plant) typically yields 5-7 tons of dry matter per acre in WI, and I would assume that switchgrass would yield close to the same in this colder climate. Last summer, sugarbeet farmers in MN were letting their piles of beets rot since the sugar market was so low last year. With MN being one of the top ethanol producers in the nation, why aren't they fermenting the sugarbeets for ethanol too and saving these farmers their rear ends? I'm sure it would be better than letting them rot! Secondly, the mention of using vinegar vs roundup for organic farming is very intriguing, but household vinegar actually only contains 3% acetic acid. How do you get stronger concentrations of vinegar and how hard is it to make via fermentation? JEFF Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: acid catalyzed ... cont...
Nitric acid would work good because it is a strong acid and as a strong acid has the capability to break the ester bonds, but that isn't the problem. Nitric acid (HNO3) when added to the mix breaks into an -OH group on the acid, and an -NO2 group on the glycerol molecule. NO2 is nitro and w/glycerol is nitroglycerin and you know how unstable it is. JEFF --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greg Nitric Acid is a Big, spell that BIG no no. I can't speak to exact specifics, but I can spell NITRO-GLYCERIN Probably a pretty simple process, whether one knows they are accomplishing it or not. Under the wrong circumstances, deadly in an equally as simple manner. Might I suggest we put the various acids to question before a chemist, rather than hypothesizing and perhaps flattening everything within a 100 foot radius? Todd Swearingen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: what could it be?
35% HCl (muriatic acid) is roughly 14.8 Molar (14.8 moles/Liter solute) If you aren't familiar with the concept, 14.8 Molar is extremely concentrated and is powerful enough to take the biodiesel fatty acid esters and break them back into ffas and methanol. That is why you don't want to wash with a strong acid, and that is why once you add too much acid, you can't regenerate the biodiesel by adding NaOH to neutralize the pH. In fact, if you add too much HCl, it will even react with the methanol present (alcohols can act as weak bases in the presence of a strong acid) and the methanol will become methyl chloride Basically, adding NaOH will neutralize the excess HCl and the FFAs which are weak acids but this doesn't help you any and by add The vinegar is not strong enough at 3% acidity to break any of the ester bonds but will react with the excess sodium methoxide remember acetic acid is a VFA-volatile fatty acid meaning that it is a short chain fatty acid and behaves similar to LCFAs-Long chain fatty acids like oleic and palmitic that are found in fats, except VFAs are soluble in water, and their esters are also soluble in water, so a methyl acetate formed by reaction of acetic acid and sodium methoxide will be soluble in water and can be washed out... and excess acetic acid (vinegar) will not react with the biodiesel but since it is water soluble will be washed out and not remain in the biodiesel level... I think the guk formed is the reaction of ffas with chloride to become acyl chlorides... I'm not sure about this but if the -OH group is replaced with a -Cl, Chlorine which has a higher affinity that Oxygen will be harder to convert into biodiesel, but the Sodium Methoxide should be strong enough to do it. (H + Cl break and the H goes to the Methoxy group to reform methanol, while the -Cl goes with the acid to create an acyl chloride). Once all the FFAs have been acylated with chlorine, the HCl turns to methanol and reacts to form water and methyl chloride which will dissolve in the nonpolar ffa layer. It would not be a buffer system, just the HCl reacting with the biodiesel which raises the pH to neutrality as it neutralizes the HCl and creates the acyl chlorides and methyl chloride which are not terribly acidic. Once all the biodiesel and methanol been reacted, the excess HCl has nothing to react with and the pH drops sharply. I've never made biodiesel, but I'm relating to my knowledge of chemistry but I may not be 100% correct. JEFF --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian asks: Does it always form? And is heating and neutralizaing the usual way of getting to it? FFAs ionize to some extent (i.e., they form soap) down to about pH 4.5, according to my expts. If you start with a collected glycerine phase at around pH 10, and your aim is to get it to neutrality, you wouldn't ever have to see the red oil. However, as you point out, the FFA/soap system is strongly buffered, so it's hard to get it precisely neutral. Much easier to overshoot to pH 4.5 (which breaks up all the creamy cottage cheese), and separate out the FFAs as red oil. Then the aqueous phase, no longer a buffer, can be brought back to pH 7 easily ( I like ammonia for that, since it adds nitrogen to the fertilizer you're making). Then you can, in good conscience, pour your neutral aqueous phase on the ground, and use your FFAs for .something. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
I agree that much of the grain produced in the world is directly fed to livestock and there are advantages and disadvantages here: advantages: a)the nutrients found in meat are more available to our bodies than those found in plants (especially proteins and fats) b)dairy cows fed distillers grains will produce more milk with higher protein (the stuff is extremely expensive because of that by the way) c)animal manure is the most efficient fertilizer compared to those made from oil! (and this should be the #1 consideration for renewable fuels since not all oil becomes gasoline but a major chunk is converted into ammonia and other fertilizers which increase yield while sacrificing the microorganisms which are the lifeblood of organic farming. disadvantage: a)except for feeding to dairy animals for milk production, the use of grains to feed cattle for meat is a very inefficient one. my conclusion: BALANCE --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No Motie...no confusion here. Are you aware that distiller's grains are fed to livestock? Are you also aware that the vast majority of arable landmass is dedicated to livestock? Are you aware that the primary product of low-oil yielding soybeans is feed meal for livestock? In a nutshell, the vast majority of all agriculture is dedicated to livestock - even in the midst of farming for fuel issues. Just from the total caloric inputs vs. caloric yield equation, you might consider taking a look at Rifkin's Beyond Beef or Robbin's Diet for a New America. The simple facts of the matter are that most of what you and others call energy crops at present are actually primary livestock feed sources. The fact that ethanol can be derived from the grain prior to the feeding of livestock, or the fact that the oil extracted from soy can be turned into biodiesel while the primary product goes to livestock are in themselves declarative that what many perceive as wasteful practices are actually rather utilitarian. Unfortunately, many people, inclusive of Pimental, Club Sierra, and other self-interest groups fail to acknowledge the multiple end uses of all the primary and coproducts, essentially pigeon holing the mechanical energy issue and errantly declaring energy products from crops as being wasteful. Balderdash...Pure Hornswaggle and Tommy rot...! What would be wasteful is if the distillers grains or soy meal were just thrown on the dung heap, rather than utilizing them - which is not what happens in the real world. Perhaps if one these people want to make declarations as to wasteful agrarian energy practices from the caloric inputs vs caloric outputs perspective, they should start with that Bacon Egg and Cheese Biscuit they had for breakfast, the McNuggets or Whopper they had for lunch or that roast simmering on the stove for dinner. But then, that's getting too personal. It's much easier just to address energy issues in the main, as we've all been in the habit of attacking traditional dirty energy supplies such as coal, oil and nuclear. Why shouldn't biodiesel or ethanol be made an equally visible target? It sure conveniently takes the heat off our personal dining practices, which in their market entirety are the driving mechanisms of most agriculture - considerably more of an impetus than our automobiles are. Maybe we should put a few farmers to work on ways to feed the by-products of coal, oil and nuclear to livestock, so we can get as maximum a utility factor from them as we do from corn and oilseeds. Todd Swearingen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] why aren't there ethanol plants in CA and NY...
I would actually make more sense to ship the ethanol to CA or NY than to build plants there since the raw ingredient: corn would then have to be shipped in instead and the shipping costs from the midwest would then result in the grain prices going down in the midwest (the economy essentially recoups the cost of transportation by making the product worth less so it is cheaper to transport - just look at the milk industry in America and you'll see what I mean.) The result of all this would also make the grain prices higher in CA and NY instead and cause even more strife for the Midwestern farmer. If you just make the ethanol and ship it from MN or IA or wherever else it is manufactured, you can ship the concentrated product to the end location - it makes sense to make cheese in WI before you ship a whole tanker truck of milk to Florida and it should also make sense to ship the final product... If the MTBE is not made in CA they have to ship that in anyway don't they? So what they heck is the problem? MTBE is actually only half as effective as Ethanol as an oxygenating agent since by molecular weight, MTBE has only about 18% oxygen and Ethanol is about 35% - that's not including density but it seems to me that you would only need 5% ethanol to get the same oxygenation as 10% MTBE JEFF thoughts? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] acid catalyzed...
oils and fats are basically a combination of long chain acids plus short chain alcohols (esters). (glycerine is an alcohol) Just like when you add a base like sodium hydroxide to an acid like hydrochloric, you get a salt plus water as products. The stronger the acid/base reaction NaOH + HCl are both strong respective base/acid so their reaction goes to completion and the products are neutral. Any time you add a stronger acid/base to the original ester, you get a reaction because fatty acids become amphoteric (meaning that they can behave as an acid or base depending on the situation) If you add sodium hydroxide to a triglyceride, a reaction takes place which breaks the ester bond and creates water and an organic salt (you get free glycerol plus a salt of free fatty acids and Na+) If HCl is added, the fatty acid becomes a base since the fatty acid is much weaker than HCl so you also break the ester bond between the glycerol and free fatty acid, but you get a fatty acyl chloride (which is a -Cl replacing the -OH of the carboxyl acid group and is undesirable and which is why you don't want to use HCl as a catalyst.) If you know the properties to Sulfuric and Phosphoric acids, they bind hydrogens via H-O- bonds so when the acid is added to the oil, the free fatty acids become phosphorylated or sulfated (depending on the acid of course) and this is a phosphoester or sulfoester bond since the -OH is replaced by -OSO3(1-) or -OPO3(2-) I hope this is making sense. As long as there isn't an excess amount of acid or base catalyst added, none of the glycerol will react with the catalyst (since alcohols also have an -OH group, they too act as amphoteric meaning they can be acid or base depending on the reaction. In soap making, Sodium Hydroxide is so basic that it deprotonates the glycerol to create sodium glyceride (not glycerate which not the same as glycerol) And if a strong acid such as Hydrochloric were used, the - OH group would once again be removed in favor of the -Cl (remember that in both cases, water is also formed.) In using the catalyst method, a small amount of the acid is added to the oil which breaks a few fat molecules into glycerol and ffa's. When the sodium methoxide is added, it reacts with the weak acid formed by the phospho/sulfoester and releases the sulfate or phosphate to attack another fat molecule. Another thing... the reason why you don't want a free fatty acid without a phosphate group when reacting the methoxide is simple. A FFA has an -OH group on the end, and a phosphorylated FFA has an -OPO3 (2-) group on the end. When the methoxide goes to attack, the -OH would theoretically be removed in favor of the -OCH3 (methoxide) group but this reaction would result in Sodium Hydroxide being formed as a product. A weak acid and a strong base cannot result in a weaker acid and an even stronger base so this is not favorable and will not occur. With the Phosphoester, the product of the methoxide added is a Sodium salt of phosphate which is neutral compared to NaOH which is more basic than NaOCH3 (methoxide). A phosphate salt being neutral means that the reaction does take place since Na3PO4 is less basic than methoxide and the biodiesel ester is less acidic to the ffa. (a little basic chemistry) I'm sure some of you already know this but I thought I'd write it up as a note to all those who are curious. JEFF Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] acid catalyzed ... cont...
I was going to mention it, but the idea of using KOH for a base catalyst and phosphoric acid as the acid catalyst means that you have K3PO4 which is fertilizer and since it would be in aqueous form mixed with the glycerol/water layers, you could make compost with grass clippings, etc... who knows? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Making Something From Nothing
Wake Island, according to sources on the net, is only 6.5 sq. km. and it is an emergency landing area or something to that effect... and has no inhabitants other than some 100 military personel check out the info page... http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/wq.html When I first saw this post, I was thinking that the reason why the figures were so high was because that was where the US did all those nuclear tests in the 50s... but I guess I was wrong... JEFF --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dana Linscott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken, Isn't Wake Island a mid pacific US military installation? I think they refuel ships and jets mainly so the figures could be skewed as they sometimes are. I have heard arguments that the US per capita energy use is similarly skewed since it does not take into account the huge petroleum use that is needed to raise and tranport crops which then end up in other countries without the energy use being attributed to those end use countries. Dana --- Ken [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where is wake island and what are the people doing there, powering a death ray? Ken C. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] $7.5 Million Feedstock Subsidy for SSPC
The major misconception with organic farming is what the chemical companies have to say about how it works overseas... you watch these promotion videos for Monsanto and they show how poor the crops grow in Nepal or Central Africa and they say how foolish they are for not using the most modern chemicals on the market... the truth however is much different: In the United States, it will typically take 7 years of Chemical-free farming to certify the farm organic... but what you must remember is that sustainable farming on land that has been intensely fertilized and the chemical use in general has been high, is that the soil is damaged... the soil microbes like some bacteria, and earthworms have been killed off by the pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizers used over the years, and to suddenly try to go no-input is like trying to get someone who's trying to quit heroin cold turkey to start living life normally again... I guess that's the best analogy... the idea that the chemicals used are like drugs and once the soil is addicted, the plants will only be able to take up what YOU put on them, and not be able to access the nutrients already in the soil. The transition to organic farming is a slow one, and it takes great discipline because it doesn't necessarily mean cutting cold turkey but reducing those things you use. For example, to start, there is no such thing as zero-input... that is foolish... grains and other feedstock do take from the soil... using manure, and organic fertilizers like Potassium Sulfate or Calcium Phosphate (not oil derivatives such as ammonium nitrate) will help the soil. The most common potassium fertilizer out there now is KCl which is a chloride salt of potassium... if you imagine, pour table salt on your tongue and feel the burn... that's what's happening to your soil. A plant will naturally use what it can by its own means. By putting a highly water soluble chemical fertilizer on your soil, you are in effect disrupting that balance. A water soluble fertilizer isn't the best source because the plant will take this fertilizer in with the water and in some cases, cause toxic effects in the plant. Sure, the corn won't be as green if you use more natural fertilizer _ BUT IT WILL BE HEALTHIER, and the vitamin/mineral content will be better, and remember, it isn't always the yield that makes the money because if you spend $100 per acre to get that extra 50 bushels per acre, are you really making it big if the corn price is less than $2.00 per bushel? It is all about inputs vs. outputs because the more you input, the more you must get out. And if you can put less in and get less out, but still make the same amount of money, why would you do it any other way (other than to go to the local feedmill to brag about your yields) And one last thing, it is foolish to feed all your corn to beef animals rather than to allow those animals to be healthy and pasture them. It may take longer for the animal to reach slaughter weight, but the animals will be healthier and it will be cheaper to feed them. once again input vs. output... And the surprise of all, no one ever mentions dairy, but this is the once situation where feeding corn will make money because a pound of corn will yield more milk $ than just selling the corn itself. Sustainable agriculture and dairy work hand in hand and of course, rotation of crops does is a big key. Notice how one crop grows, and in the process leaves something behind that is beneficial for another crop... and the pest problem is gone... studies have shown that even a crop like oats before corn will help increase corn yields over corn on corn on corn year after year... and sticking a new crop in the mix every year or two will also reduce the need for fertilizers because corn sucks everything out of the soil, while small grains and alfalfas take less maintenance and are good for soil organisms. Sustainable agriculture doesn't necessarily mean no input, but it means smart stewardship. Taking care of the soil because that's all you have. If you abuse the soil, it will not produce. If you take care of the soil, the soil will produce just as much as it would otherwise. In one example for my dad who is a dairy farmer in Wisconsin (I'm at college) we had 200 bushel per acre corn one year (1994), and about average yields in the past decade or so compared with those who use all the modern means of farming and all we use is dairy manure, and a good solid crop rotation. (in case you didn't know, 200 bushel corn is an enviable position to be in no matter where in the US you grow corn, not just NW wisconsin where the weather doesn't favor anything more than 100 bushel per acre corn. check out this webpage for any ideas... http://www.midwesternbioag.com --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello again George Hello Keith I don't disagree as much as
[biofuel] Sustainable Agriculture ----- was: $7.5 Million Feedstock Subsidy for SSPC
The problem is that the bankers convince the farmers that they need the most modern equipment, and operating practices to compete, and any farmer who has debt will tell you that it is not fun... In my own experience, I can tell you that if a farmer wants to make money, he must not conform to what the bankers and universities tell him to do to make money, but see for himself what the animals and soil are telling him. A farmer who abuses his animals will not make any money that is obvious... but if a farmer feeds his animals high protein, high corn, low forage diets, in essence he's doing the right thing according to the university and banker to get the high yield in milk, or meat, but the animal isn't designed to eat that diet, it will get sick, and burnout so why isn't this considered abuse? Notice the dairy farms in California where they feed the hell out of the animals, give them all the modern drugs and hormone treatments, then wonder why they are culling out animals after only one year of milking, creating a huge shortage of youngstock (if the cows don't have calves, where do new cows come from?) It has been proven that a cow will give more milk with less inputs as it gets older and has more calves. But it is easier, with super large herds (and seems to be the general philosophy with large businesses) to just get what you can now and who cares if the animal's immune system goes to hell, and whether it has a heart and liver 4 times the size it should be? That's the problem with modern agriculture! Man wants it now... and will do anything to get it. To take care of your animals, and not listen when the banker/university study says you have to expand will be the best way to go because healthy animals will give you healthy milk/meat, and they will also reproduce healthily! More cows= more money, and if you can do this with less inputs, then you make money (but the key is that you have to resist the urge to borrow money and get in debt because once you're in debt, the tendency is to borrow more to get out of debt and you just get deeper. I ask you: Look for a farmer who is not in debt and tell me if he isn't making money (sure not millions, but he's making a living). JEFF --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Harmon I have always believed that studies show the politics of the payee. In my world anyways, small farmers are at a very large disadvange. Many years ago I was a dairy farmer. I started out with 20 cows. Went good for a few years, then had to buy 10 more cows, then 10 more and then 10 more. Finally said the hell with it when Reagon got to be president and sold them all. Your study was done by someone who was paid to do it. Small farmers are selling out by droves now. They simply can't do it with the prices and costs the way they are. All the studies in the world won't save all the guys in the High Plains Journal who are advertizing their farm sales. I have read them as well, I just know better from experience of living it. Regards George Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seems like there was a post here just awhile back on a study done which showed big farms (and they weren't talking about organic) just weren't able to make it as well as smaller farms, and IIRC, it was around the 200 acre point where things started going down. So sell some land, buy some cows and pigs and chickens and diversify, get rid of the chemicals and giant (ultra-expensive) machinery. You'll make just as much money, live longer, and be happier. Don't sell the corn, feed it to the pigs, or make ethanol, or -- whatever. It's a ridiculous idea to farm corn when corn is the cheapest heating fuel on the market. Sorry, George, I just don't have much sympathy for the American farmer, for the most part. I think if we can get the gov't to stop all the crop subsidies and other forms of corporate welfare, the organic/chemical arguement would end pretty quickly. Farmers have been conned, swindled, bamboozled, by the banks, the chemical companies, ag agents, and ag schools (who all work for chemical companies essentially). Hey, I saw the same thing happening in the logging industry -- guys got conned into buying all that new fancy equipment then lost their shirt when NAFTA came along. The banker tried to talk me into it -- I didn't even ask for a loan, he approached me. I just kept logging with my old crawler, and when the crunch came I just sold it all and went back to school. I really like the way the Amish do it -- no debt. And they definitely do make money, pay cash for their farms. On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 04:50:56PM -0600, George Lola Wesel wrote: I would say that is a very fair question. If it was possible I would. I know several organic farmer and they don't laugh all the way to the bank. That is just an image they would like everybody to believe. In order
[biofuel] Re: Glycerine pretreat
I would assume that since there are naturally some free fatty acids in oil, that they would have combined with some of the glycerol to make monoglycerides. If you also assume that there is a sort of equilibrium system going on, then the more glycerol means that the reaction is driven to create more oil molecules and leave less fatty acids. Does that make any sense? I hope so... JEFF --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], t_watchornnz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Back in December there was some talk on this subject by Paul Gobert and others. The subject being to use glycerine which still has some methanol and NAOH content to pre-treat oil used for bio-diesel. Has anyone done further experiments? I would like to give it a go. I did try mixing 1 litre of glycerine with 1 litre of used Canola oil at about 50 degC, mixing by hand now then over an hour. After 24 hours had about 250 mil Esters, 900 mil oil, 850 mil glycerine. Was surprised to see lest glycerine than oil. The oil layer had yellowy aerated look, and has stayed that way after 6 days (it was clean clear looking to start with) I presume it is just the oily middle layer that you then go on to process with the usual methods. I would welcome any pointers and guidance on the subject. I have about 150 litres in plastic pails I want to process. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] removing water from alcohol
Hey, I know many of you on the list as well as I have been trying to find ways to dry alcohol without using zeolites, etc... there has been the suggestion of using metallic potassium or sodium (very dangerous) but what I was thinking is that maybe using a K2O or Na2O (potassium or sodium oxide - not hydroxide) to consume the water? Since when left out in the open, the two oxides will absorb water to become KOH and NaOH respectively, why not use them to make KOH or NaOH in the solution? JEFF Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
oilseed content - was Re: [biofuel] rapeseed seeds
Corn has a very low percentage of oil in the seed so 129 lbs over an acre where the average yield in corn is about 150 bushels or 8400 lbs makes corn only about 1-2% oil which means that it is extremely hard to extract. An acre of palm would produce that much since each tree produces bunches of close to 30-40 lbs of fruit which contains about 45% oil. just remember that trees can produce more than one bunch of fruit, and that there is appoximately 200 feet x 200 feet area in an acre... (43,560 sq. ft. to be exact) so that if a tree takes up 20 square feet or so, you'd have 2000 trees per acre and if each produces only two bunches with oil produced at 30-40 lbs/tree, you quickly get 6000- 8000 lbs of oil in that acre. I don't know how many trees you can put in an acre, or their exact yield, all I'm saying is that it is possible. JEFF --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Shukrainternationals [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I went to http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html for oil yield. One example in it is: Corn. Corn gives 129 Labs of oil yield per acre and 18 US gal of biodiesel yield per acre. How do we justify this, 18 gallons per acre of corn? Second example: Oil Palm; Oil Palm gives 4465 Labs of oil yield per acre and 635 gallons of boiodiesel yield per acre. Am I interpreting the table correctly? snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: canola vs. soy oil... stuff...
Keith, I have made a couple jpg files showing the basics of the iodine test. I could also attach a text file or something to explain the whole procedure, but basically, what an iodine test does, is not to show the amount of double bonds, but how reactive those bonds are (the more double bonds are broken and saturated by iodine, the fewer double bonds remain, and the reaction rate slows down) The iodine number is actually the amount of iodine consumed by an oil expressed as the amount of iodine in centigrams vs. the amount of oil in grams. The number is expressed as a percent (since dividing centigrams by 100 will give you grams) Here is a website that shows basically what the iodine test entails (this is the modern procedure in an analytical chemistry lab) http://manuals.dot.state.tx.us/dynaweb/colmates/mtp/@Generic__BookText View/150943 snip I could draw up a diagram and post it to the files section if anyone has questions. That would be useful, but the Files section is closed for uploads. I can upload it though, if you send it to me direct. Which format would you use? That's a diagram, not just an iodine table? Or a diagram and an iodine table? :-) snip JEFF Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] canola vs. soy oil... stuff...
I decided to do a little research on the actual chemical structure of canola, soy, and linseed oil to see how each differed and to see if the chemical structure itself has something to do with the various properties of the oil, once it is converted into biodiesel. I hope I don't confuse anyone! I am sure that most people who read this list understand what it is that makes an oil (glycerol bound to 3 fatty acids). Animal tallow/lard, is saturated, meaning that in the fatty acid portion, all the carbons are bound to 2 hydrogens, and there are no double bonds. This allows the chains of fatty acids to be straighter, and more pliable so they harden at lower temperatures (that's why lard is a solid). As you increase the number of double bonds in a fatty acid, you reduce that ability for oils to gain a conformation that would make them solid, so they remain liquid. I can explain it by imagining that you put a bunch of strings in a line. Now tie knots in various places on the strings and see how they don't fit together tightly. To test a vegetable oil to see how many double bonds (how unsaturated it is) Iodine is introduced to the oil. The iodine will attach itself over a double bond to make a single bond where an iodine is now attached to each carbon involved in that double bond. The higher the iodine number does not refer to the amount of iodine in the oil, but rather the amount of iodine needed to saturate the oil, or break all the double bonds. So don't worry about an oil's iodine number being high to ruin an engine because oils for the most parts contain only trace amounts of it at best naturally. How does this translate to biodiesel? When the fatty acid chains are broken from the glycerol and then re-esterified to methyl or ethyl groups, those fatty acids still have their double bonds. That means that the more double bonds, the lower the cloud point because they resist solidifying more under lower temps. It seems obvious, that if you use lard or tallow, the biodiesel will solidify at a higher temperature because the fat it was formed from also solidified at a higher temperature. How this translates into combustion, I am not really sure. It seems to me that the more saturated an oil is, the more efficient it burns (because double bonds mean less hydrogen present). A double bond between 2 carbon atoms will however has more energy when broken (meaning more heat given off when burning/combustion) The reference to epoxifiying is where a double bonded carbon is oxidized so that an oxygen atom now has a bond to each carbon (an oxygen has 2 bonds to give unlike only 1 for iodine) these are also known as oxiranes, or cyclic ethers. In laboratory, the way these are created is by using hydrogen peroxide in the presence of a zeolite. I know for a fact that epoxides can be carcinogenic, however, I know from my knowledge of Chemistry since I am studying it in college right now, that an epoxide is also extremely unstable, and if exposed to the right conditions, it will either form a diol, or a ketone. I am sure that this will also lower the amount of CO emissions in an engine. In the case of a diol (2 -OH groups), it makes that once unsaturated double Carbon bond into a saturated bond, and that raises the flash point. In the case of a ketone (a -C=O double bond), I am not really sure how it affects the chemical properties of the fatty acid. I could draw up a diagram and post it to the files section if anyone has questions. I hope this helps anyone. JEFF Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] hydrogen powered cars - am I missing something?
I always like to post those tough chemistry questions since I am a chemistry major in college right now, and the current one is one I believe I asked a while back, but got no response. In a car powered by a fuel cell where hydrogen is essentially the main fuel source, or solely the fuel source, what is used to burn it? It may sound like a dumb question, but the atmosphere is 80% nitrogen. If air was used to burn hydrogen, then some of that hydrogen would result in ammonia being produced. Along with the desirable water. Of course, if the oxygen used to burn were generated through hydrolysis there wouldn't be a problem there, or if the hydrogen was used in such a way that it never really escaped the engine and went back into storage as fuel (hydrolyze in some way to return it to free hydrogen gas). It seems to me that you would have to haul oxygen tanks with you, and the emissions from such a vehicle, if not burning hydrogen with pure oxygen, would have to be treated with a catalytic converter, so in the end, you've come full circle. I am not sure if ammonia and oxygen would revert to water and nitrogen gas if sent through a catalytic converter. Any ideas? Or am I totally off on my reasoning here? JEFF Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Access Your PC from Anywhere Full setup in 2 minutes! - Free Download http://us.click.yahoo.com/.WCYWA/2XkDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: molecular sieves for dehydrating ethanol
If I remember right, people used to burn lime (CaCO3) to make quicklime (CaO). I suppose it would be expensive, but you could take regular lime for adjusting pH in the soil and heat it so it decomposes and releases the CO2 and becomes CaO (it might work if you put a tin under the broiler of your oven or something. I still think that if you can get ahold of some Calcium Chloride (which they use in solution with water for ballast fluid in large farm tires.) We use it all the time in our organnic chemistry lab at college to soak up water from ethers, and alcohols we make in the lab. Swirl about a tablespoon around a 250 mL beaker until it is completely lumped up and keep adding it until the salt doesn't lump anymore. And I was reading earlier about using a lump of Sodium to dry alcohol. Doing that would give you Sodium ethoxide an not ethanol (of course, if that's what you're using to make biodiesel it works. But you risk blowing yourself to kingdom come in the process) JEFF snipsnipsnipsnipsnipsnip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/kL8TtD/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Treating glycerin
I was just thinking that by treating the glycerin biproduct from biodiesel which is sodium glycerate with hydrochloric acid (HCl) you'd end up with a product that is a mixture of table salt and glycerin which could possibly be fed to animals? We have a dairy farm and feed the cows something close to 3 oz. per day per cow and maybe using the biproduct it would have glycerin in it too so that it could be used as a fat additive in the cows' diet for energy? Anyone have thoughts on this? JEFF Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Break free. Great American Smokeout http://us.click.yahoo.com/3vN8tD/.pSDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Cornburning Stoves
Shelled Corn ranges between 8,000 and 10,000 BTU/lb (depending on quality) @15% moisture which is what it is stored at typically - that converts into 180,000 BTU/bu.(avg.) Wood pellets are typically (8000-9000 BTU/ lb.) and online group sells wood pellets for $150/ton which would calculate into about 113,000 Btu/$ (8500 BTU avg/lb) market price for corn is about $1.80-$2.20/bu which would calculate into about 250,000 BTU/$ If you can truck the corn, it is half as expensive to heat as pellets and can typically be burned in pellet stoves. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: CORN 1,000 BTU/POUND (56,000 BTU per bushel @ 56 pounds) WOOD 8,600 BTU/POUND Bio - Units and Conversion Factors http://www.geog.umd.edu/homepage/courses/jboberg/units.htm Typical Energy Content of Fossil and Biomass Fuels Solid, Liquid and Gas These are not uncommon in corn growing areas of the American Midwest where firewood is more expensive than bulk corn from local farmers. A few farmers in our area use them for corn they grow themselves since it costs less to burn their own corn than sell it and buy other fuel. I can't help but wonder at the energy potental of corn -vs- wood of a given type. Does anyone know the BTU value for a ton of corn? How does that break down for cost? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Quit now for Great American Smokeout http://us.click.yahoo.com/0vN8tD/9pSDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Turning the corner?
I agree that Dr. Pimental uses out of date information and is biased against ethanol, but Why would you make ethanol if you'd be using it to burn in an ethanol plant when it would be much more efficient just to burn the corn in place of coal in a power plant? If more technology is placed into research of biomass burning then we wouldn't need as much coal. Is it such a bad idea to replace a percentage of coal in a typical power plant with corn, or charcoal, or some other high energy clean-burning biomass? JEFF --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dr. Pimentals reports have influenced alot of people and their web sites about how much it cost to produce ethanol. But, will he re- evaluate his case? I really do hope that someday ethanol is cheaper than coal and its used to power an ethanol plant. Its great the guy can sit down and discuss his views and at least offer to revaluate, I hope they can show better numbers, will leave the detractors with only the ability to call names. We'll give 'em their own chat room :) http://www.ncga.com/news/notd/2001/november/110101.htm Corn Growers Tell 'True Story' of Ethanol in New York (11-01-01) The National Corn Growers Association (NCGA), working closely with the New York Corn Growers Association, made great strides this week telling the true story about ethanol to key legislators and agencies, academia and consumers in the Empire State. Recently, a particular hurdle that corn growers have faced in New York and the nation was a report by Cornell University Professor David Pimentel, who positioned ethanol as an inefficient and uneconomical fuel. Corn growers met that hurdle head-on in a peer- to- peer meeting Tuesday with Pimentel. Our meeting was very cordial and interesting, said McClelland, who represented corn growers along with Colorado School of Mines Professor Mike Graboski. Dr. Pimentel listened to our concerns about his report, and we are encouraged that he asked us to provide additional data so that he can re-evaluate his position. A key concern by corn growers is that Pimentel's conclusions that corn ethanol production achieves a negative balance were based on outdated and flawed data. McClelland said NCGA will provide unbiased information from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the U.S. Department of Energy and other sources refuting Pimentel's claims. Corn growers also met with other Cornell University professors and researchers to discuss the Pimentel report, Cornell ethanol research and the results of a rural economic impact study commissioned by the New York Corn Growers Association. We were very well received by the Cornell staff, who expressed a keen interest in renewable fuels and the impact the ethanol industry would have on the rural economy in New York and nationwide, said York, Neb., farmer Boyd Smith, chairman of the NCGA Ethanol Marketing Committee. The corn growers also discussed the rural economic impact study data with Sen. Jim Wright, who helped fund the study, along with key New York agency representatives. The rural economic impact study, which would apply not only in New York but in other states where the production of ethanol would benefit economies in rural sectors, indicates that the ethanol industry can sustain approximately 700 jobs through the annual production of 30 million gallons of denatured ethanol plus related co- products, said Kevin Swartley, president of the New York Corn Growers Association, and a corn grower from Romulus, N.Y. It is anticipated that these jobs will sustain more than $45 million of economic activity and provide $16 million or more in annual incomes to New Yorkers. Swartley added that a one-time benefit of about $91 million in economic activity will result from plant construction and from preparation of land for crop production. Sen. Wright also stressed the potential the ethanol industry presents for New York's rural economy. Innovative technology is paving the way for new industries and opportunities in New York, Wright said. In a time when the use of alternative fuels is becoming more feasible, this could be a viable path for new York to explore. Smith concluded that corn growers will continue to work with all of the groups they met to ensure the development of the ethanol industry in New York. Our work did not stop with this week's meetings, Smith emphasized. . Actually, it just began. Everyone that we met with was interested in working with us on these critical issues. For more information about NCGA and ethanol visit, www.ncga.com. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] magnetic fuel treatment
Hi all, I thought I'd do a quick yahoo search to see if there was anything about the magnetic resonance fuel line thingys you guys have been talking about and all I could find other than a few sites that had them for sale was this one that discussed research: http://www.csicop.org/si/9801/powell.html the guy said that he couldn't find any credible research data on the technology. Check it out for yourself. JEFF Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/E11sED/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Methanol quality?
Yes, methyl hydrate is methanol. CH3 refers to methyl, and OH refers to a hydrate. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is methyl-hydrate methanol? --- Shawn Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For my first test, I used lab grade methanol, which is 99.9% pure, and less than .01% water, but expensive. If I switch to methyl hydrate from the hardware store (99% pure I think) can I expect to have problems with water content? Shawn Janis Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://Zuiko.sls.bc.ca/~swright (Olympus List Archives) = http://devzero.ath.cx/ Visit the Systems Information Database Have some interesting information? Put it up on the SID. -Martin Klingensmith __ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/E11sED/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: running a house from a generator
I was just thinking about the idea of converting excess energy to heat. Now if you eliminated your furnace and water heater, and ran a water heater-like reservoir off the genset instead of a radiator, then used that for a source of hot water, and maybe installed in- floor radiant heat and just pumped the antifreeze from the engine through there during the summer, you'd have enough free heat to heat your house. I wonder how using a small refrigerator unit would work to cool this radiant floor heating system to make it into a radiant floor cooling unit for summer. (rambling thoughts I guess) If you made your own fuel (let's say biodiesel) for cheap enough, you could run a fairly decent genset 24/7. If you were to assume that the typical 60 amp home service (@220 v.) would be about 13 kw (of course, that 13 Kw would be for peak usage, and if you cut it down to say 8 kw, and figured out a way to not have the dryer, or the oven, or some large appliance running at the same time, you could avoid this. Another way to do this could be to have 2 small 4-5 kw generators, then you could run one generator 24 hrs a day and have a switch on the other one to run at peak hours. Another rambling of thoughts... and probably not very cost effective. JEFF --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I suggest about freezers is the good old way. My side is a farm with quite a history behind. One detail is that the farm had an ice celler! During the winter a lot of ice was freezed and stored in a good isolated celler deep under the ground. During the summer small pieces of the ice was used to freeze the meat etc. They managed to keep the ice during the whole summer (our summer is hot ~30-35¡C)! Further we have a celler under the house which always have a temperature under 12¡C! If I locate a freezer in the celler and I make a big isolation around, freeze it with real ice I think it should do the trick...An other method is to run it from solar energy. Only a small PV panel would need. When there's hot and the sun shines then you need the most energy for freezing. I was dealing with the water storage as well. The potential energy is a nasty thing! If you want to pump water, you have either pump it very high (hydroglobus) or you have to pump a lot! Imagine to have a water tank with thousands of liter a couple of meter above the ground! Hmmm I was dealing with a lot ways and ideas but finally I got a hint from primemover about veg oil. My problem is always the storage of energy! I can genrate everything, but how to store it? Now I think the question is other way round. I have enough fuel that can be storaged good, so what I need is a flexible energy transfering. I mean from veg oil to electicity, heat, etc. The batteries against this idea. What you do is transfer the energy stored in the veg oil and store it again in the DC batteries. Then you transfer it again to AC when needed. Only because it is easier to control an inverter! Instead of that I want to control the genset better. I was meantioning the energy balance before. Take a few word about it. Suggest I want to run my vacum cleaner and toaster so I switch on the genset. It producing around 4-5kW which is of course far too much for the load. Meanwhile I charge the small battery banks that take a little load as well. The rest of generated electicity can be used to e.g. freeze ice or heat water (or steam up) (also energy storage) It seems to be that the need of hot water is much more then the electricity that is generated parallel! So if you have surplus electicity just convert it to heat and then the balance is OK. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Anton Berteaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i saw a fridge and freezer in a jade mountain catatlog that was made for sailboats that had a powerful cooler, and eutectic plates (essentially walls witrh liquid that freezes and then takes heat away as it unfreezes) that will stay cold with an hour otr two of gen run time a day, but I still think a super insulated frige running on solar with genny backup to make more electricity and supply heat in the winter when there is less sun is the best option . have no numbers on this, so consider it heresay... anton -Original Message- From: Harmon Seaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 9:02 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [biofuel] running a house from a generator One problem that I found years ago when I lived off grid was dealing with the power needs of a freezer. And refridgerators are about the same. We had a genset with an automatic switch so that it would start whenever we turned on a light in the house. We bought the most efficient chest freezer we could find, which really didn't use much when it was on (about 150watts), just when starting, but the
[biofuel] using an inverter
I'm curious, and slightly concerned about the use of inverters to turn DC to AC power. I've heard that the use of inverters causes extremely high magnetic/electric fields which are a cause of stray voltage (a concern here since we are a dairy farm and have paid dearly for it) and I've also heard that if you wish to use an inverter to power a house, they can damage electronic equipment. I am not sure if this is because the cheaper ones don't convert into a true sine wave but just a square wave (or if there is a high amount of feedback from the coils on those things). Stray voltage can be the cause of many illnesses and I won't go into that now... but another thing is that it is one thing to want an inverter to power a house, but how much to get the necessary equipment to synchronize the power to the grid? Just a few questions - enlighten me! JEFF Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Waste Veggie Oil in Home Heater
I'm curious as to how well waste oil (if properly filtered) would work if dissolved in gasoline, or diesel and used for fuel. How well would it work to use gasoline or diesel as a thinner to make the vegetable oil flow better and thus make it easier to burn in a furnace? Could this also make heating unnecessary, and make filtration easier since the liquid would be less viscous? Just a few thoughts... JEFF --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dana Linscott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve, We are currently experimenting with WVO in various oil heaters. The key seems to be filtering and then warming the oil to a viscosity similar to the fuel you are replacing. In the engines we are running on WVO this has been the trick and of the two filtering has been the most bothersome. We filter to 5 microns which requires frequent cleaning of filters. I think this may be overkill when it comes to a simple stove of the type you describe but better safe than sorry. We are using a vacuum filter which utilizes a compressor unit from a defunct refrigerator (free) and commercial fuel tank filters but probably need to set up a backflush circuit to simplify cleaning them. Right now we simply remove them and soak them in gasoline carefully pouring out the accumulated particles about every 100 gallons. The majority of the crud settles out and so the solvent can be poured off and reused over and over. But it is messy and one must be vigilant when messing around with gasoline. Does anyone have a working filter setup that is simpler than ours or has a backflush capability? I would be very interested in feedback or pointers? When it comes to warming the WVO a waterbed heater seems to do the trick well and they are cheap (or free in some cases). Please let me know how your experiment goes... and don't be disappointed if you run into a few glitches along the way. What you want to do IS possible just persevere and think it out as much as possible first. Good luck. Dana --- Steve W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Biofuelists, There has been interesting discussion about converting waste vegetable oil into biodiesel and I might try that sometime. But what about just taking waste vegetable and burning it in an oil stove to heat ones home? I have an old oil stove that has a simple carburator on it and requires no electricity to run. Could I just filter the WVO real good and burn it in this? I don't think deposits would be a big problem. I could even heat the oil up to boil off the water. Steve = Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 __ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] using vo for hydrogen
I've read on this list that they're talking about the supply of hydrogen running out when oil runs out, but what is wrong with removing the hydrogen from vegetable oil instead? If the typical fatty acid chain on a saturated fat is 14-16 carbons, then the typical hydrogen content would be 27-31 hydrogens per chain and there are 3 chains per fat/oil molecule. I presume that since vegetable oil is an organic compound just as gasoline, and oil are, that the process would be the same, or at least similar, and the source would be renewable. But then there is a secondary problem: Hydrogen, unlike Carbon does not hold much energy in the bonds and it would take much more hydrogen to power a vehicle than it would ethanol. The only reason why hydrogen is so popular as an alternative fuel is that its exhaust is water. Another thing I was thinking about is the use of methanol or ethanol instead of natural gas in one of those liquid from gas fuel factories. Make octane from ethanol? Is it possible (or maybe octyl alcohol) Just a few thoughts... JEFF Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ujOgTC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Dishwasher processors
Has anyone looked into using an old milk centrifuge like the ones in the dairy plants they use to make skim milk? Of course they're probably expensive too... JEFF --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ed Service [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ed' You would have to modify the tub to keep the oil inside for the spinner to do any good! (the clothes cannot get through the holes so they dry but the oil would go through freely) A few years ago I done some work for Pan-Canadian testing a centrifuge built by an American company called CINC (Costner Industries Nevada Corporation) It was quite good at separating water from crude oil even when cold but it did tend to clog up with sand. Something like this would work good in Bio-fuel and was quite simple. Ed Service - Original Message - From: Edward Beggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 12:37 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Dishwasher processors Yes and I think some European and Japanese(?) models might have extra-fast spinners that reduce dryer use, right? So that would do quite a nice job I think, of pretreating oil ( of course gravity will do it too, with some time). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/zoU8wD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] glycerol soap waste conversion to fermentable product?
My question is directed toward any biochemists out there who would have knowledge of this idea: I have read up on the process of making biodiesel from Sodium Ethoxide (lye and ethanol) and vegetable oil, and I understand that a by-product from this reaction is a glycerine soap. My question is that is is possible to enzymatically convert this soap back to glycerol [HO-CH2-CHOH-CH2-OH] (remove the Sodium) and then convert it into a fermentable product such as pyruvate [ CH3-C(=O)-COOø ] via Dihydroxyacetone Phosphate or Glycerol 3-Phosphate? If this is the case, then all the glycerol can be converted into ethanol and create even more fuel from the process. Is the economically feasible if it could be done or would the costs outweigh the benefits? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/zoU8wD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
