Re: [Biofuel] Class Warfare: The Minimum Wage Goes Down
I volunteer for a group called Charis House in Atlanta, GA. What they do is build a house in a run-down area of the city and sell it at cost to try to help a family get back on its feet and to make the neighborhood better. After a few houses get built in the neighborhood, property values start to rise and the people that the organization is trying to help are forced to sell their homes and move because they cannot afford the property taxes. -Paul WebberOn 6/30/06, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A friend of mine owned a small farm in Colorado. Developers bought up the areas around it and the value of the land started doubling every year. Pretty soon it was worth about 60 times what it was when he bought it and the yearly taxes were larger than what he had originally paid for it. Now there are 20 some ugly houses on that farm... So in the end he had quite a bit of money from selling it, but owned nothing Just an example of how property value increase isn't always a good thing, even though we generally assume that it is. On 6/27/06, Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John- one problem is if even you own property outright you haven'teliminated your debt. The tax man will still demand payment.As willthe insurance man if the use of said property brings mandatory liabilityinsurance coverage.That's not to say you wouldn't be better off owning property outright.Doug, N0LKKKansas USA inc.When all else fails- Amateur Radio http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/pscm/sec1-ch1.html ARES John Mullan wrote:snipped Economic crash and the re-issue of currency has happened before and has to happen again.To survive, eliminate your debt and try desperately to own all your property out-right. Just my two-cents worth. Cheers, John___Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Paul Webber[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Class Warfare: The Minimum Wage Goes Down
A friend of mine owned a small farm in Colorado. Developers bought up the areas around it and the value of the land started doubling every year. Pretty soon it was worth about 60 times what it was when he bought it and the yearly taxes were larger than what he had originally paid for it. Now there are 20 some ugly houses on that farm... So in the end he had quite a bit of money from selling it, but owned nothing Just an example of how property value increase isn't always a good thing, even though we generally assume that it is. On 6/27/06, Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John- one problem is if even you own property outright you haven'teliminated your debt. The tax man will still demand payment.As willthe insurance man if the use of said property brings mandatory liabilityinsurance coverage.That's not to say you wouldn't be better off owning property outright.Doug, N0LKKKansas USA inc.When all else fails- Amateur Radiohttp://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/pscm/sec1-ch1.html ARES John Mullan wrote:snipped Economic crash and the re-issue of currency has happened before and has to happen again.To survive, eliminate your debt and try desperately to own all your property out-right. Just my two-cents worth. Cheers, John___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Class Warfare: The Minimum Wage Goes Down
John- one problem is if even you own property outright you haven't eliminated your debt. The tax man will still demand payment. As will the insurance man if the use of said property brings mandatory liability insurance coverage. That's not to say you wouldn't be better off owning property outright. Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. When all else fails- Amateur Radio http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/pscm/sec1-ch1.html ARES John Mullan wrote: snipped Economic crash and the re-issue of currency has happened before and has to happen again. To survive, eliminate your debt and try desperately to own all your property out-right. Just my two-cents worth. Cheers, John ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Class Warfare: The Minimum Wage Goes Down
Hallo MR, Monday, 26 June, 2006, 16:33:10, you wrote: MR Hi John, MR I don't mean to be a pain in the ass And I do. ;o) MR but, your focus is on company profits, re-issue of currency, and MR monetary greed - not a common denominator in an explanation on why MR both capitalist and communist societies would fail. As it should be. Greed, mammon, lust for power and control. Pretty much all just different slices of the same pie. MR At least for now, it's not an explanation that makes sense to me. MR More to the point, governments irrespective of the model they MR follow, fail because citizens do not realize the importance of MR participation (IMHO). Now brother, take a look at what you are talking about, or at least what I think you are talking about. I think you are trying to address a problem of morality with politics. Also, it is interesting that so many folks think capitalism and communism are political systems when they are economic systems at their root, branch and leaf. These systems are all concerned with who controls the wealth. Politics is perhaps more how it is controlled. Things have become blurred with time. Then again I could have it all wrong. hahaha The problem is a moral one not one of participation. If the participants don't have a high moral standard but are rather on the low side of the scale are you going to like what you get even with 100% participation? How about if the participants are dumber than clams and docile as sheep and those at the top are greedy swine (sound at all familiar), but you are getting 100% participation? Heart changes - mind follows. I would say to get the heart right and associate informally, create networks, which would obviate the necessity of government and be there in the event of a catastrophic failure of some sort from whatever cause, natural, political or otherwise. Participate as one is able and inclined, but don't get lost on the way from here to there. Make sure that you are part of the backup system with a heart. Be prepared to give and receive help as necessary and as able. Ready for the broken record part? Requirements are self-restraint, -discipline, a healthy sense of responsibility, love of ones neighbors and recognition that we are ALL neighbors, co-operation, non-violence, non-resistance (returning good for evil-you can't teach non-violence by coercion of any sort), loving service to ones neighbors (see above), sharing your toys (knowledge, skills, time, food, tools, whatever is necessary to get the job done). Oh Lord, patience! Recognizing that all the folks aren't evil they just don't know any better. Build on the positive things brother. Accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative. How could I forget that? This is all religion to me. Others call it something else and that is fine, no problem, but for me it is a matter of religion. Not the go to the organized church every Sunday, one way and only one way type of thing which is creed and dogma not religion, but the love your neighbor as yourself and display the fruits of that love by service to your neighbors type of religion. No, not humanism. It is a thing where some of the attributes can be shown but not all and it is beyond description and definition. If you can put it in a box it isn't the thing. The real leaders do so by example not because they have control. Does anyone think Bush is a leader? He is a controller. Flat out. The leaders are out there in their communities making a real, lasting difference. They aren't looking for votes or trying to control others they are helping others. If it requires a thank you it is neither a gift nor is it free. Well, brother, you have had enough of my blather by now I suspect. I will turn the same old same old off. Well maybe not. It is what is right not what is accepted or legal. Take care. Stay well and happy. Happy Happy, Gustl MR - Redler MR John Mullan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MR I believe that either economic model (communist or capitalist) is MR destined to collapse, sooner or later. One of the main factors being MR greed. Greed is what causes inflation. Companies are driven to make MR more profit. People need more income to purchase the higher priced MR items they need AND want (ie; form of greed). MR In my area, I know many people earning minimum wage (Canada) and even MR simple one-room apartments tax their ability to have any disposable MR income. But there are also many companies that would be hard pressed to MR increase their prices such as to pay significantly more than minimum MR wage and still have a decent customer base. MR Add to the picture the coming death of cheap energy and the picture MR becomes even more bleak. MR Economic crash and the re-issue of currency has happened before and has MR to happen again. To
Re: [Biofuel] Class Warfare: The Minimum Wage Goes Down
I just can't recall when, but the following was from an episode of the Religion and Ethics program aired on PBS during a past Congressional debate on the minimum wage. I recall the term used was just wage. Problem is that here in the USA such criteria is labeled communist, instead of Christian. -- Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. BUSINESS EXECUTIVES FOR ECONOMIC JUSTICE Criteria For Determining Whether A Wage Is Just 1.You cannot assume a wage is just because someone is willing to accept it. 2.The lowest full-time paid person at a company ought to be properly compensated to allow the person a standard of living consistent with human dignity. 3.Your primary obligation is managing the company as a going concern for the benefit of all the stakeholders (investors, employees, customers, and community), recognizing that these are not mutually exclusive. 4.The right of all employees of the company to earn a living wage is at least as important as the right of owners/investors to earn a reasonable rate of return on their investment in the company. 5.If the above four criteria are met: Owners/investors, since they risk their capital, are justified in earning a higher level of compensation than generally prevails among their employees. Managers are also justified in earning a higher level of compensation, because of their assumed responsibility, level of talent, and experience. For more information, write to: Business Executives For Economic Justice 711 W. Monroe St. Chicago, IL 60661 -- Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Class Warfare: The Minimum Wage Goes Down
I believe that either economic model (communist or capitalist) is destined to collapse, sooner or later. One of the main factors being greed. Greed is what causes inflation. Companies are driven to make more profit. People need more income to purchase the higher priced items they need AND want (ie; form of greed). In my area, I know many people earning minimum wage (Canada) and even simple one-room apartments tax their ability to have any disposable income. But there are also many companies that would be hard pressed to increase their prices such as to pay significantly more than minimum wage and still have a decent customer base. Add to the picture the coming death of cheap energy and the picture becomes even more bleak. Economic crash and the re-issue of currency has happened before and has to happen again. To survive, eliminate your debt and try desperately to own all your property out-right. Just my two-cents worth. Cheers, John Doug Younker wrote: I just can't recall when, but the following was from an episode of the Religion and Ethics program aired on PBS during a past Congressional debate on the minimum wage. I recall the term used was just wage. Problem is that here in the USA such criteria is labeled communist, instead of Christian. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Class Warfare: The Minimum Wage Goes Down
Hi John,I don't mean to be a pain in the ass but, your focus is on company profits, re-issue of currency, and monetary greed- not a common denominatorin an explanation on why both capitalist and communist societies would fail.At least for now, it's not an explanation that makes sense to me.More to the point, governments irrespective of the model they follow, fail because citizens do not realize the importance of participation (IMHO).- Redler John Mullan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe that either economic model (communist or capitalist) is destined to collapse, sooner or later. One of the main factors being greed. Greed is what causes inflation. Companies are driven to make more profit. People need more income to purchase the higher priced items they need AND "want" (ie; form of greed).In my area, I know many people earning minimum wage (Canada) and even simple one-room apartments tax their ability to have any disposable income. But there are also many companies that would be hard pressed to increase their prices such as to pay significantly more than minimum wage and still have a decent customer base.Add to the picture the coming "death" of cheap energy and the picture becomes even more bleak.Economic crash and the re-issue of currency has happened before and has to happen again. To survive, eliminate your debt and try desperately to own all your property out-right.Just my two-cents worth.Cheers,John[snip]___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Class Warfare: The Minimum Wage Goes Down
"...do we really think if companies are forced to pay their workers more that they'll just suck up the extra cost and not raise prices?"Sure...when they are employee owned.The salaries of CEO's are hundreds of times more than their employees. That sucking sound youmighthave heardis the cost of feeding the parasites at the top of the food chain.- RedlerKurt Nolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Keith Addison wrote: The GOP just shafted the working people of America. By rejecting an attempt to raise the minimum wage, the Republican-controlled Senate showed that it is far more interested in lining the pockets of its campaign contributors than - as Paul Krugman wrote in a New York Times op-ed on Monday - arriving at a "new New Deal" and working to "rebuild our middle class." The 52-46 vote was eight short of the 60 needed for approval. (The measure drew the support of eight Republicans --four of these are up for reelection in the fall.) Why does this not surprise me? Sen. Edward Kennedy's amendment would have raised the wage from the current $5.15 an hour to $7.25 - the first raise in a decade. "The minimum wage," as economist Gwendolyn Mink, makes clear, is supposed to guarantee an income floor to keep full-time wage-earners out of poverty. But today, the federal minimum wage guarantees abject poverty for workers... nearly $6,000 per year below the federal poverty line for a family of three." I'm all for a minimum wage increase, but do we really think if companies are forced to pay their workers more that they'll just suck up the extra cost and not raise prices? I have a feeling prices would have skyrocketed if this had gone through. It would have put my present wage at under minimum. [snip]___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Class Warfare: The Minimum Wage Goes Down
No problems Michael. It's just the overly simplistic way I see it. It may very well be totally inaccurate and most certainly an over-simplification. And you make a very good regarding participation. Cheers, John Michael Redler wrote: Hi John, I don't mean to be a pain in the ass but, your focus is on company profits, re-issue of currency, and monetary greed - not a common denominator in an explanation on why both capitalist and communist societies would fail. At least for now, it's not an explanation that makes sense to me. More to the point, governments irrespective of the model they follow, fail because citizens do not realize the importance of participation (IMHO). - Redler ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Class Warfare: The Minimum Wage Goes Down
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0622-28.htm Published on Thursday, June 22, 2006 by The Nation Class Warfare: The Minimum Wage Goes Down by Katrina vanden Heuvel The GOP just shafted the working people of America. By rejecting an attempt to raise the minimum wage, the Republican-controlled Senate showed that it is far more interested in lining the pockets of its campaign contributors than - as Paul Krugman wrote in a New York Times op-ed on Monday - arriving at a new New Deal and working to rebuild our middle class. The 52-46 vote was eight short of the 60 needed for approval. (The measure drew the support of eight Republicans --four of these are up for reelection in the fall.) - See Class War Politics Paul Krugman. New York Times op-ed Monday, June 19, 2006: http://theobfuscationreport.blogspot.com/2006/06/class-war-politics.html Sen. Edward Kennedy's amendment would have raised the wage from the current $5.15 an hour to $7.25 - the first raise in a decade. The minimum wage, as economist Gwendolyn Mink, makes clear, is supposed to guarantee an income floor to keep full-time wage-earners out of poverty. But today, the federal minimum wage guarantees abject poverty for workers... nearly $6,000 per year below the federal poverty line for a family of three. But the vast majority of Republican Senators, several of them millionaires several times over, don't care about poverty or the well-being of their working class constituents, What they really care about is that they're sitting pretty, having voted themselves another raise --to $168,500 --on January 1. Even the not-exactly-populist Wall Street Journal points out, While the minimum wage has remained frozen, lawmakers' salaries have risen with annual cost-of-living increases keyed to what is given federal employees. And last week's vote in the House Appropriations Committee followed a floor vote days before in which the House cleared the way for members to get another increase valued at thousands of dollars annually. So, while Congress will soon make close to $170,000 a year, hardworking full-time minimum wage workers make just $10,700 annually. One group that did important work to end this inequity is the Let Justice Roll coalition--a fast-growing program of more than 70 faith and community groups. The coalition labored mightily to target senators who were critical to passing this legislation and preventing it from being weakened by Republican's bogus charges of class warfare. (For the true definition of class warfare, check out my Dictionary of Republicanisms. Class warfare, n.: any attempt to raise the minimum wage). For millions of families, this callous vote means another day of choosing between rent and health care, putting food in the refrigerator or gas in the car. Meanwhile, a Big Oil CEO makes $37,000 an hour. Want to talk about class warfare? Katrina vanden Heuvel has been The Nation's editor since 1995 and publisher since 2005. She is the co-editor of Taking Back America--And Taking Down The Radical Right (NationBooks, 2004) and, most recently, editor of The Dictionary of Republicanisms (NationBooks, 2005). © 2006 The Nation ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Class Warfare: The Minimum Wage Goes Down
Keith Addison wrote: The GOP just shafted the working people of America. By rejecting an attempt to raise the minimum wage, the Republican-controlled Senate showed that it is far more interested in lining the pockets of its campaign contributors than - as Paul Krugman wrote in a New York Times op-ed on Monday - arriving at a new New Deal and working to rebuild our middle class. The 52-46 vote was eight short of the 60 needed for approval. (The measure drew the support of eight Republicans --four of these are up for reelection in the fall.) Why does this not surprise me? Sen. Edward Kennedy's amendment would have raised the wage from the current $5.15 an hour to $7.25 - the first raise in a decade. The minimum wage, as economist Gwendolyn Mink, makes clear, is supposed to guarantee an income floor to keep full-time wage-earners out of poverty. But today, the federal minimum wage guarantees abject poverty for workers... nearly $6,000 per year below the federal poverty line for a family of three. I'm all for a minimum wage increase, but do we really think if companies are forced to pay their workers more that they'll just suck up the extra cost and not raise prices? I have a feeling prices would have skyrocketed if this had gone through. It would have put my present wage at under minimum. Even the not-exactly-populist Wall Street Journal points out, While the minimum wage has remained frozen, lawmakers' salaries have risen with annual cost-of-living increases keyed to what is given federal employees. And last week's vote in the House Appropriations Committee followed a floor vote days before in which the House cleared the way for members to get another increase valued at thousands of dollars annually. So, while Congress will soon make close to $170,000 a year, hardworking full-time minimum wage workers make just $10,700 annually. Hmmm, 11k here, and trying to pay for schooling, bills and food with it. Doesn't work out too well, unfortunately. -k ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
