Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
I doubt that higher petroleum prices would mean, an appreciable increase in amount waste oil is recycled, but higher prices may increase the demand for what of what waste oil is collected. I would love to have a transport tanker full of it to sell at the crude oil reclaiming plant a mile South of me. :) Other than burning it in their diesel engined motor vehicles some silly people may would like to recycle it to heat buildings. What is and isn't practice depends on the cost of the refined products from petroleum to be stating the obvious. Anyway the tanker full is a daydream, but in some places those using recycled oil for heating purposes could be competition for the diesel driver. Doug Original Message From: Keith Addison Anyway, why would the price/value of waste lube oil be soaring? Do high oil prices really mean more waste oil is being recycled? More silly people burning it as fuel in their diesels? Just because the price of everything else is soaring? And nobody's even blaming biofuels? :-) Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
This is at JtF: Only about 10% of the waste vegetable oil (WVO) produced in the industrialised countries is collected, billions of gallons a year aren't collected. Apart from the waste oil produced by restaurants and food outlets and food processors, an estimated 1.5 million US gallons of grease and oil goes into the sewage system every year for every one million people in some US metropolitan areas. Extended nationwide that's hundreds of millions of gallons wasted every year. US restaurants produce about 300 million US gallons of WVO a year, much of which ends up in landfills. Do you have a source for that information? I went and found it on this page: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html but it didn't cite sources there, either. I know it's been a while since that page was written, but is there any chance you remember where it came from or have it noted somewhere else? That doesn't make any sense if companies are starting to pay for the WVO. There's no way they would pay to pick up the oil, only to turn around and then pay to dump it. That's no way to run a business. If the collectors were still being paid to take the oil away then I could believe it was possible, so maybe it was true, but I have a hard time believing that it is true today unless I see some good references. Even with good references I would stay skeptical, but would at least consider the possibility. Just some un-cited data, even at JtF is not convincing. Thanks, Erik ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
Erik I don't understand what you're saying. I think you're starting at the wrong end. Did you read my whole message? The bit you've excerpted, as it says, concerns uncollected oil, so I don't understand your point about the collectors' role, there isn't one, it isn't collected. Much of the WVO produced by restaurants is not collected, most of the WVO produced by households is not collected, nobody's paying to collect it and then dumping it, it gets dumped in the first place. If there's more and better collection now because of rising commercial pressures, whether for food or feed or fuel or whatever, it'll be focused on the food retailers and food service businesses - the restaurants and so on, it will hardly touch the consumer level, if at all. That will take a grass-roots effort, it's people-centred, not business. That's why I was focusing on household collection, it's the natural niche for DIY biodieselers, in just the same way that small producers have access to local-niche markets where the big guys can't compete, any more than local guys could compete on the national market. So I'm not sure what you want me to convince you of. I do have that paper somewhere, IIRC it focused on Chicago, but it was about household waste, not commercial collection, it was a few years ago and you seem to want current data, and probably it was fraught with the same data gaps I mentioned that plague all these studies, so there's not much point in digging it up. I used it as an indicator: For example... it says. Re your complaint about not citing sources, you seem to miss the fact that the bit you quoted is not about commercial WVO collection in the US, that's just incidental, it's in a section about City farming: Many cities would have difficulty handling their wastes without the urban farms recycling them as livestock feed, compost and fertiliser. Such an approach suits localised biofuels production very well, and it integrates well with city farming. For example, only about 10% of the waste vegetable oil (WVO) produced in the industrialised countries is collected... It makes the same point about the natural niche for small-scale biofuelers. Citing references to support this current argument would add nothing and only clutter it up. And yes, it was written a couple of years ago, but it's even more relevant now than it was then, no changes or updates needed. It's not exactly a new discussion here, household collection, eg: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg36760.html [biofuel] Re: waste oil collection from residences. huseyin turcan 19 Jul 2004 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg36776.html Re: waste oil collection from residences. The NYT article I posted yesterday, One Country's Table Scraps, Another Country's Meal, has a rather arresting photograph of the food a US family wastes in a month, with a java link to a full-sized graphic, which has a caption that isn't on the page version: Into the trash it goes, May 18, 2008: A federal study found that 96.4 billion pounds of edible food was wasted by U.S. retailers, food service businesses and consumers in 1995 - about 1 pound of waste per day for every adult and child in the nation at that time. That doesn't count food lost on farms and by processors and wholesalers. For a family of four people, that amounted to about 122 pounds of food thrown out each month in grocery stores, restaurants, cafeterias and homes. Here is a depiction of that family's monthly share, the sum of waste in eight different food groups as detailed in the study. ... Fats and oils, 8.6 pounds Source: United States Department of Agriculture; Census Bureau US-wide that'd be a total of 645 million pounds of fats and oils wasted every month, about 1.1 billion gallons a year. Some of it's collected in various ways, most not. Read the NYT story for more info. http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg72679.html The NYT article approaches the how much WVO question from a different angle: food waste in a hungry world. It's not the first, there are other such articles in the list archives from a few years back. Some good studies have been done, not just in the US, and the whole subject is attracting more attention, as it should. The food waste issue isn't just about commodities and costs, so it's probably not as prone to data gaps as the official waste data is, or the renderers' reports and so on, and it might give a clearer picture. I think it already does give a clearer picture of household-level food wastes, or at least a more accessible one. If you want better and more recent data you might look in that direction. Best Keith This is at JtF: Only about 10% of the waste vegetable oil (WVO) produced in the industrialised countries is collected, billions of gallons a year aren't collected. Apart from the waste oil produced by restaurants and food outlets and
Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 8:00 PM, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Erik I don't understand what you're saying. That's probably because I misunderstood what you were saying in the first place. I think you're starting at the wrong end. Did you read my whole message? The bit you've excerpted, as it says, concerns uncollected oil, so I don't understand your point about the collectors' role, there isn't one, it isn't collected. Much of the WVO produced by restaurants is not collected, most of the WVO produced by households is not collected, nobody's paying to collect it and then dumping it, it gets dumped in the first place. I did read through the rest, but I've always thought that the vast majority of oil used here was commercial. I don't think that there's that much tossed out by individual households, at least in my experience. As far as the WVO produced by restaurants not being collected, are you sure about that? It's illegal here to just toss the grease. They have buckets and it gets picked up. Unless there's something that I don't know about. If there's more and better collection now because of rising commercial pressures, whether for food or feed or fuel or whatever, it'll be focused on the food retailers and food service businesses - the restaurants and so on, it will hardly touch the consumer level, if at all. That will take a grass-roots effort, it's people-centred, not business. That's why I was focusing on household collection, it's the natural niche for DIY biodieselers, in just the same way that small producers have access to local-niche markets where the big guys can't compete, any more than local guys could compete on the national market. Again, I didn't understand that your point was mainly about households. And it would still surprise me if they tossed very much in general. Maybe my experience is atypical. So I'm not sure what you want me to convince you of. I do have that paper somewhere, IIRC it focused on Chicago, but it was about household waste, not commercial collection, it was a few years ago and you seem to want current data, and probably it was fraught with the same data gaps I mentioned that plague all these studies, so there's not much point in digging it up. I used it as an indicator: For example... it says. Re your complaint about not citing sources, you seem to miss the fact that the bit you quoted is not about commercial WVO collection in the US, that's just incidental, it's in a section about City farming: Many cities would have difficulty handling their wastes without the urban farms recycling them as livestock feed, compost and fertiliser. Such an approach suits localised biofuels production very well, and it integrates well with city farming. For example, only about 10% of the waste vegetable oil (WVO) produced in the industrialised countries is collected... When I saw it talking about the 300 million gallons from restaurants, much of which is sent to landfills probably tended to send me in the direction of thinking it was more about commercial operations, as well. At any rate, you've cleared up the misconceptions that I had about the point you were trying to make. The waste of food is disgusting, but on a personal level there's only so much that can be done, other than growing my own or purchasing the raw foods and making my own meals, which I already do for the most part. I think it would be hard to extract quite a bit of that 8.6 pounds of fats and oils from the rest of the food waste, but I don't think that would be the correct fix for the problem. Shouldn't have the waste in the first place, of course. Anyway, thanks for the reply, Erik It makes the same point about the natural niche for small-scale biofuelers. Citing references to support this current argument would add nothing and only clutter it up. And yes, it was written a couple of years ago, but it's even more relevant now than it was then, no changes or updates needed. It's not exactly a new discussion here, household collection, eg: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg36760.html [biofuel] Re: waste oil collection from residences. huseyin turcan 19 Jul 2004 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg36776.html Re: waste oil collection from residences. The NYT article I posted yesterday, One Country's Table Scraps, Another Country's Meal, has a rather arresting photograph of the food a US family wastes in a month, with a java link to a full-sized graphic, which has a caption that isn't on the page version: Into the trash it goes, May 18, 2008: A federal study found that 96.4 billion pounds of edible food was wasted by U.S. retailers, food service businesses and consumers in 1995 - about 1 pound of waste per day for every adult and child in the nation at that time. That doesn't count food lost on farms and by processors and wholesalers. For a family of four people, that amounted to about 122
Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
Hi Doug Hey Keith, Isn't that what they call the free market? :) It's free if you own it. :-) I suspect the auto repair shops will wise up and find buyers that will pay more than 20 cents per for the oil, that carry any required liability insurance. Assuming the truck buyer isn't full of it, I suspect he is. In the event you don't have your tank inside a spill containment structure in may be in your and the store owner's best interest to do so, one that can handle a good rainfall as well. You don't want to experiance that sick feeling you will get when you see an oil slick heading downstream knowing its your job to stop it and clean it up. Indeed. But he's a very capable person, the guy who emailed me. Anyway, why would the price/value of waste lube oil be soaring? Do high oil prices really mean more waste oil is being recycled? More silly people burning it as fuel in their diesels? Just because the price of everything else is soaring? And nobody's even blaming biofuels? :-) Best Keith Doug ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
must pay for WVO collected from 100 or more miles away. I just came back from sunny Florida (US) where I picked up a nice 1985 Mercedes 300CD for my wife. Maybe I'll just match the price for veg oil, do conversions on our two diesels and run them on veg oil rather than BD. Heating the house may be a problem. Anybody know about outdoor wood-fired boilers? Best to All, Tom - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO It means that the economy is starting to value stuff that used to be regarded as a waste product (a concept that does not exist in nature). It's good that the economy is coming more in line with reality. Though perhaps not for you in this case. What is it being used for? Mostly additives to animal food (dogfood, and probably factory chickens and cows), and alledgedly soap and detergent (google yellow grease) I know a few years ago, a few of us investigated buying filtered WVO from one of the companies that collects it commercially from restuarants. At that time, it was going to be $1/gal for filtered WVO, buying it 100 gallons at a time, I think. Diesel was around $2.40 or so. I don't know what else that company sold the filtered WVO for, but they were willing to sell it for use as fuel as well. Z On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 5:50 PM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, A restaurant that has been happily giving me their WVO for the past three years received a letter from the company that they used to pay used to pick up their WVO. The company is offering to pay them them $0.35/pound for their WVO 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubies of WVO going for more than $10! I found it hard to believe. I stopped at another restaurant and asked to have their WVO, hoping to maintain my steady oil flow, and was told that someone pays them $2/gal for their waste oil. Does anybody know what is happening here? Is the WVO being converted to BD? With diesel hovering around $5/gal and with subsidies (in US) for BD, is it profitable to pay $2/gal for WVO and then convert it into BD? Or Is it being filtered and re-sold as veg oil? I've been told that the veg oil restaurants bought last year at $15/cubie now cost $35 - $40/cubie. I have a bad feeling about this. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
omg. . . . On 5/24/08, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Doug Hey Keith, Isn't that what they call the free market? :) It's free if you own it. :-) I suspect the auto repair shops will wise up and find buyers that will pay more than 20 cents per for the oil, that carry any required liability insurance. Assuming the truck buyer isn't full of it, I suspect he is. In the event you don't have your tank inside a spill containment structure in may be in your and the store owner's best interest to do so, one that can handle a good rainfall as well. You don't want to experiance that sick feeling you will get when you see an oil slick heading downstream knowing its your job to stop it and clean it up. Indeed. But he's a very capable person, the guy who emailed me. Anyway, why would the price/value of waste lube oil be soaring? Do high oil prices really mean more waste oil is being recycled? More silly people burning it as fuel in their diesels? Just because the price of everything else is soaring? And nobody's even blaming biofuels? :-) Best Keith Doug ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080521/91a3c857/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
This might explain some of your problems too: http://www.miamiherald.com/business/AP/story/540330.html Here's an excerpt: San Francisco started its program, SFGreaseCycle, to cut down on the millions it spends each year to dislodge fats, oils and grease clogging the sewers, Ving said. The San Francisco Public Utilities Commission eventually hopes to power its fleet of buses, fire trucks and emergency vehicles with biodiesel made from local restaurants' old oil, she said. Sounds like restaurants are picking up on the idea of WVO being a valuable commodity, and municipalities and other larger potential users are starting to edge out homegrown users. -Will K. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas Kelly Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 6:56 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO Hi Zeke, What is it being used for? Mostly additives to animal food (dog food, and probably factory chickens and cows), and allegedly soap and detergent (google yellow grease) I have read a bit about the fate of WVO from dumpsters . ingredient in animal food. I had the opportunity to talk to someone who worked in a lab that evaluated WVO. He said that WVO that meets standards can be used in food for human consumption here in the US. He said that WVO that was below standard might be exported, used to make a food product, and then exported back to the US for human consumption. He also said that the real bad stuff is used in pet food/animal feed. I don't know if the food for human consumption is fact or fiction, but I have avoided the products that he mentioned as containing WVO. I haven't noticed any dramatic increase in dog or cat food. Chicken feed and other grain-based animal food for livestock seems to reflect increases in grain prices. I don't think the switch from charging the restaurant for WVO pickup, to paying the restaurant for the WVO is due to its use in animal food. The increased cost of vegetable oil for cooking has caused some restaurants to change their oil less frequently. Others have switched to cheaper veg oil. Some fast food restaurants filter and re-use their oil. I was wondering if there is now a market for used veg. oil for cooking. Will it be used in more food for human consumption? Will restaurants resort to using veg oil that has been discarded from other restaurants? I have heard of a BD producer coming on line about a hundred or so miles from me. While BD is not available at the pump, home heating oil suppliers offer B20 now. Diesel fuel at $5/gal might be making BD production profitable even if the producer must pay for WVO collected from 100 or more miles away. I just came back from sunny Florida (US) where I picked up a nice 1985 Mercedes 300CD for my wife. Maybe I'll just match the price for veg oil, do conversions on our two diesels and run them on veg oil rather than BD. Heating the house may be a problem. Anybody know about outdoor wood-fired boilers? Best to All, Tom - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO It means that the economy is starting to value stuff that used to be regarded as a waste product (a concept that does not exist in nature). It's good that the economy is coming more in line with reality. Though perhaps not for you in this case. What is it being used for? Mostly additives to animal food (dogfood, and probably factory chickens and cows), and alledgedly soap and detergent (google yellow grease) I know a few years ago, a few of us investigated buying filtered WVO from one of the companies that collects it commercially from restuarants. At that time, it was going to be $1/gal for filtered WVO, buying it 100 gallons at a time, I think. Diesel was around $2.40 or so. I don't know what else that company sold the filtered WVO for, but they were willing to sell it for use as fuel as well. Z On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 5:50 PM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, A restaurant that has been happily giving me their WVO for the past three years received a letter from the company that they used to pay used to pick up their WVO. The company is offering to pay them them $0.35/pound for their WVO 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubies of WVO going for more than $10! I found it hard to believe. I stopped at another restaurant and asked to have their WVO, hoping to maintain my steady oil flow, and was told that someone pays them $2/gal for their waste oil. Does anybody know what is happening here? Is the WVO being converted to BD? With diesel hovering around $5/gal and with subsidies (in US) for BD, is it profitable to pay $2/gal
Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
Received from someone who uses waste motor oil for space heating, not WVO: The recent run-up in oil prices has distorted the waste oil market. Now instead of auto repair shops having to pay to have their waste oil removed, a truck comes around and pays them 20 cents per gallon. As you would expect, they now won't give their oil to me for free. I have to compete for it. So now I am having to pay 25 cents per gallon for oil. The trucker is also telling them that the stuff is hazardous waste and that they can't just give it to anybody as they would be liable for any oil spills caused by anybody (like me). As a result, most won't even sell me oil anymore. Bummer! Fortunately, there is still one guy who will give me oil. So I've taken matters into my own hands and have just installed a 300 gallon Used Oil tank at my local auto parts store. I had to pay for the tank, but the store owner is happy to direct all his customers to dump their waste oil in my tank. With the exception of the cost of the tank, the oil will be free. I should get sufficient oil to meet my annual needs if there are no unexpected problems. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
Hi Zeke, What is it being used for? Mostly additives to animal food (dog food, and probably factory chickens and cows), and allegedly soap and detergent (google yellow grease) I have read a bit about the fate of WVO from dumpsters . ingredient in animal food. I had the opportunity to talk to someone who worked in a lab that evaluated WVO. He said that WVO that meets standards can be used in food for human consumption here in the US. He said that WVO that was below standard might be exported, used to make a food product, and then exported back to the US for human consumption. He also said that the real bad stuff is used in pet food/animal feed. I don't know if the food for human consumption is fact or fiction, but I have avoided the products that he mentioned as containing WVO. I haven't noticed any dramatic increase in dog or cat food. Chicken feed and other grain-based animal food for livestock seems to reflect increases in grain prices. I don't think the switch from charging the restaurant for WVO pickup, to paying the restaurant for the WVO is due to its use in animal food. The increased cost of vegetable oil for cooking has caused some restaurants to change their oil less frequently. Others have switched to cheaper veg oil. Some fast food restaurants filter and re-use their oil. I was wondering if there is now a market for used veg. oil for cooking. Will it be used in more food for human consumption? Will restaurants resort to using veg oil that has been discarded from other restaurants? I have heard of a BD producer coming on line about a hundred or so miles from me. While BD is not available at the pump, home heating oil suppliers offer B20 now. Diesel fuel at $5/gal might be making BD production profitable even if the producer must pay for WVO collected from 100 or more miles away. I just came back from sunny Florida (US) where I picked up a nice 1985 Mercedes 300CD for my wife. Maybe I'll just match the price for veg oil, do conversions on our two diesels and run them on veg oil rather than BD. Heating the house may be a problem. Anybody know about outdoor wood-fired boilers? Best to All, Tom - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO It means that the economy is starting to value stuff that used to be regarded as a waste product (a concept that does not exist in nature). It's good that the economy is coming more in line with reality. Though perhaps not for you in this case. What is it being used for? Mostly additives to animal food (dogfood, and probably factory chickens and cows), and alledgedly soap and detergent (google yellow grease) I know a few years ago, a few of us investigated buying filtered WVO from one of the companies that collects it commercially from restuarants. At that time, it was going to be $1/gal for filtered WVO, buying it 100 gallons at a time, I think. Diesel was around $2.40 or so. I don't know what else that company sold the filtered WVO for, but they were willing to sell it for use as fuel as well. Z On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 5:50 PM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, A restaurant that has been happily giving me their WVO for the past three years received a letter from the company that they used to pay used to pick up their WVO. The company is offering to pay them them $0.35/pound for their WVO 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubies of WVO going for more than $10! I found it hard to believe. I stopped at another restaurant and asked to have their WVO, hoping to maintain my steady oil flow, and was told that someone pays them $2/gal for their waste oil. Does anybody know what is happening here? Is the WVO being converted to BD? With diesel hovering around $5/gal and with subsidies (in US) for BD, is it profitable to pay $2/gal for WVO and then convert it into BD? Or Is it being filtered and re-sold as veg oil? I've been told that the veg oil restaurants bought last year at $15/cubie now cost $35 - $40/cubie. I have a bad feeling about this. Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080517/78ed9c2d/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment
Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 5:55 AM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Heating the house may be a problem. Anybody know about outdoor wood-fired boilers? Best to All, Tom I've seen one a long time ago but I don't recall the details or who made it. Something like this would probably work too, though it's not quite designed for it. http://www.backwoodssolar.com/catalog/appliances_nonelectric.htm#CHOFU%20HOT%20TUB%20HEATER -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080518/8f4b1511/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
a neighbor wanted me too install theirs. the problem was it was a non pressurized system and vented. he had a 2 story house meaning the water pressure from the second floor required him to have a heat exchanger to operate with his heating system. Installation turned out to be a lot more expensive than they had planned. several towns around here are trying to ban them because they tend to produce low level smoke when the air is still. personally , if a neighbor complains about what i'm doing then they paid to much to live next to me -- Original message -- From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Zeke, What is it being used for? Mostly additives to animal food (dog food, and probably factory chickens and cows), and allegedly soap and detergent (google yellow grease) I have read a bit about the fate of WVO from dumpsters . ingredient in animal food. I had the opportunity to talk to someone who worked in a lab that evaluated WVO. He said that WVO that meets standards can be used in food for human consumption here in the US. He said that WVO that was below standard might be exported, used to make a food product, and then exported back to the US for human consumption. He also said that the real bad stuff is used in pet food/animal feed. I don't know if the food for human consumption is fact or fiction, but I have avoided the products that he mentioned as containing WVO. I haven't noticed any dramatic increase in dog or cat food. Chicken feed and other grain-based animal food for livestock seems to reflect increases in grain prices. I don't think the switch from charging the restaurant for WVO pickup, to paying the restaurant for the WVO is due to its use in animal food. The increased cost of vegetable oil for cooking has caused some restaurants to change their oil less frequently. Others have switched to cheaper veg oil. Some fast food restaurants filter and re-use their oil. I was wondering if there is now a market for used veg. oil for cooking. Will it be used in more food for human consumption? Will restaurants resort to using veg oil that has been discarded from other restaurants? I have heard of a BD producer coming on line about a hundred or so miles from me. While BD is not available at the pump, home heating oil suppliers offer B20 now. Diesel fuel at $5/gal might be making BD production profitable even if the producer must pay for WVO collected from 100 or more miles away. I just came back from sunny Florida (US) where I picked up a nice 1985 Mercedes 300CD for my wife. Maybe I'll just match the price for veg oil, do conversions on our two diesels and run them on veg oil rather than BD. Heating the house may be a problem. Anybody know about outdoor wood-fired boilers? Best to All, Tom - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO It means that the economy is starting to value stuff that used to be regarded as a waste product (a concept that does not exist in nature). It's good that the economy is coming more in line with reality. Though perhaps not for you in this case. What is it being used for? Mostly additives to animal food (dogfood, and probably factory chickens and cows), and alledgedly soap and detergent (google yellow grease) I know a few years ago, a few of us investigated buying filtered WVO from one of the companies that collects it commercially from restuarants. At that time, it was going to be $1/gal for filtered WVO, buying it 100 gallons at a time, I think. Diesel was around $2.40 or so. I don't know what else that company sold the filtered WVO for, but they were willing to sell it for use as fuel as well. Z On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 5:50 PM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, A restaurant that has been happily giving me their WVO for the past three years received a letter from the company that they used to pay used to pick up their WVO. The company is offering to pay them them $0.35/pound for their WVO 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubies of WVO going for more than $10! I found it hard to believe. I stopped at another restaurant and asked to have their WVO, hoping to maintain my steady oil flow, and was told that someone pays them $2/gal for their waste oil. Does anybody know what is happening here? Is the WVO being converted to BD? With diesel hovering around $5/gal and with subsidies (in US) for BD, is it profitable to pay $2/gal for WVO and then convert it into BD? Or Is it being filtered and re-sold as veg oil? I've been told that the veg oil restaurants bought last
Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 07:47:07 -0600 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 5:55 AM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Heating the house may be a problem. Anybody know about outdoor wood-fired boilers? Best to All, Tom I've seen one a long time ago but I don't recall the details or who made it. Something like this would probably work too, though it's not quite designed for it. http://www.backwoodssolar.com/catalog/appliances_nonelectric.htm#CHOFU%20HOT%20TUB%20HEATER -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080518/8f4b1511/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/wood fired outdoor boilers work great my sister has one at her house we live in vermont and the winters are rugged she feeds hers in the morning and evening it has automatic dampers to regulate the combustionit will burn 8 or nine hours unattended no prob she goes through 5 or 6 cord a seasonif by chance fire goes out lines are protected from freezing with glycolshe loves hers and i am planning on adding one at my house this year as far as aste oil goes i have been traveling to nyc for mine from vt with a box truck loaded with cubies and picking up 1500 gallons per trip am paying 95 cent per gallon with current prices at the pump i am still saving 50 percnt after processing and feeling better about the exhaust my equipment is releasing into the atmosphere _ Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?souce=EML_WL_ GoodCause -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080518/613b2e02/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
A friend of mine installs and services outdoor wood boilers for a dealer. He's been after me to buy one. several towns around here are trying to ban them because they tend to produce low level smoke when the air is still. There's some opposition to them around here too. Is it just a problem in developed areas (towns) or is the smoke somehow different from the smoke from my woodstove?My nearest neighbor is a quarter of a mile away and he's thinking of getting one too. Tom - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 11:37 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO a neighbor wanted me too install theirs. the problem was it was a non pressurized system and vented. he had a 2 story house meaning the water pressure from the second floor required him to have a heat exchanger to operate with his heating system. Installation turned out to be a lot more expensive than they had planned. several towns around here are trying to ban them because they tend to produce low level smoke when the air is still. personally , if a neighbor complains about what i'm doing then they paid to much to live next to me -- Original message -- From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Zeke, What is it being used for? Mostly additives to animal food (dog food, and probably factory chickens and cows), and allegedly soap and detergent (google yellow grease) I have read a bit about the fate of WVO from dumpsters . ingredient in animal food. I had the opportunity to talk to someone who worked in a lab that evaluated WVO. He said that WVO that meets standards can be used in food for human consumption here in the US. He said that WVO that was below standard might be exported, used to make a food product, and then exported back to the US for human consumption. He also said that the real bad stuff is used in pet food/animal feed. I don't know if the food for human consumption is fact or fiction, but I have avoided the products that he mentioned as containing WVO. I haven't noticed any dramatic increase in dog or cat food. Chicken feed and other grain-based animal food for livestock seems to reflect increases in grain prices. I don't think the switch from charging the restaurant for WVO pickup, to paying the restaurant for the WVO is due to its use in animal food. The increased cost of vegetable oil for cooking has caused some restaurants to change their oil less frequently. Others have switched to cheaper veg oil. Some fast food restaurants filter and re-use their oil. I was wondering if there is now a market for used veg. oil for cooking. Will it be used in more food for human consumption? Will restaurants resort to using veg oil that has been discarded from other restaurants? I have heard of a BD producer coming on line about a hundred or so miles from me. While BD is not available at the pump, home heating oil suppliers offer B20 now. Diesel fuel at $5/gal might be making BD production profitable even if the producer must pay for WVO collected from 100 or more miles away. I just came back from sunny Florida (US) where I picked up a nice 1985 Mercedes 300CD for my wife. Maybe I'll just match the price for veg oil, do conversions on our two diesels and run them on veg oil rather than BD. Heating the house may be a problem. Anybody know about outdoor wood-fired boilers? Best to All, Tom - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO It means that the economy is starting to value stuff that used to be regarded as a waste product (a concept that does not exist in nature). It's good that the economy is coming more in line with reality. Though perhaps not for you in this case. What is it being used for? Mostly additives to animal food (dogfood, and probably factory chickens and cows), and alledgedly soap and detergent (google yellow grease) I know a few years ago, a few of us investigated buying filtered WVO from one of the companies that collects it commercially from restuarants. At that time, it was going to be $1/gal for filtered WVO, buying it 100 gallons at a time, I think. Diesel was around $2.40 or so. I don't know what else that company sold the filtered WVO for, but they were willing to sell it for use as fuel as well. Z On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 5:50 PM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, A restaurant that has been happily giving me their WVO for the past three years received a letter from
Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
as i understand it , the wood boilers burn cooler because of the water jacket and this produces a more incomplete combustion -- Original message -- From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] A friend of mine installs and services outdoor wood boilers for a dealer. He's been after me to buy one. several towns around here are trying to ban them because they tend to produce low level smoke when the air is still. There's some opposition to them around here too. Is it just a problem in developed areas (towns) or is the smoke somehow different from the smoke from my woodstove?My nearest neighbor is a quarter of a mile away and he's thinking of getting one too. Tom - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 11:37 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO a neighbor wanted me too install theirs. the problem was it was a non pressurized system and vented. he had a 2 story house meaning the water pressure from the second floor required him to have a heat exchanger to operate with his heating system. Installation turned out to be a lot more expensive than they had planned. several towns around here are trying to ban them because they tend to produce low level smoke when the air is still. personally , if a neighbor complains about what i'm doing then they paid to much to live next to me -- Original message -- From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Zeke, What is it being used for? Mostly additives to animal food (dog food, and probably factory chickens and cows), and allegedly soap and detergent (google yellow grease) I have read a bit about the fate of WVO from dumpsters . ingredient in animal food. I had the opportunity to talk to someone who worked in a lab that evaluated WVO. He said that WVO that meets standards can be used in food for human consumption here in the US. He said that WVO that was below standard might be exported, used to make a food product, and then exported back to the US for human consumption. He also said that the real bad stuff is used in pet food/animal feed. I don't know if the food for human consumption is fact or fiction, but I have avoided the products that he mentioned as containing WVO. I haven't noticed any dramatic increase in dog or cat food. Chicken feed and other grain-based animal food for livestock seems to reflect increases in grain prices. I don't think the switch from charging the restaurant for WVO pickup, to paying the restaurant for the WVO is due to its use in animal food. The increased cost of vegetable oil for cooking has caused some restaurants to change their oil less frequently. Others have switched to cheaper veg oil. Some fast food restaurants filter and re-use their oil. I was wondering if there is now a market for used veg. oil for cooking. Will it be used in more food for human consumption? Will restaurants resort to using veg oil that has been discarded from other restaurants? I have heard of a BD producer coming on line about a hundred or so miles from me. While BD is not available at the pump, home heating oil suppliers offer B20 now. Diesel fuel at $5/gal might be making BD production profitable even if the producer must pay for WVO collected from 100 or more miles away. I just came back from sunny Florida (US) where I picked up a nice 1985 Mercedes 300CD for my wife. Maybe I'll just match the price for veg oil, do conversions on our two diesels and run them on veg oil rather than BD. Heating the house may be a problem. Anybody know about outdoor wood-fired boilers? Best to All, Tom - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO It means that the economy is starting to value stuff that used to be regarded as a waste product (a concept that does not exist in nature). It's good that the economy is coming more in line with reality. Though perhaps not for you in this case. What is it being used for? Mostly additives to animal food (dogfood, and probably factory chickens and cows), and alledgedly soap and detergent (google yellow grease) I know a few years ago, a few of us investigated buying filtered WVO from one of the companies that collects it commercially from restuarants. At that time, it was going to be $1/gal for filtered WVO, buying it 100 gallons at a time, I think. Diesel was around $2.40 or so. I don't know what else
Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
below are links to external wood boilers that differ from the usual pig iron fire box with the thermostat controlled flue. they offer complete, high temp combustion instead of making the fire smolder (smoke people have issues with), and have a much larger thermal storage capacity. in my climate it would likely take one, at most two, burns with the GARN for whole house and shop heating. they are much more expensive though. http://garn.com/Default.aspx/Below_ground_piping.htm http://www.woodboilers.com/home-heating-systems.asp john [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as i understand it , the wood boilers burn cooler because of the water jacket and this produces a more incomplete combustion -- Original message -- From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] A friend of mine installs and services outdoor wood boilers for a dealer. He's been after me to buy one. several towns around here are trying to ban them because they tend to produce low level smoke when the air is still. There's some opposition to them around here too. Is it just a problem in developed areas (towns) or is the smoke somehow different from the smoke from my woodstove?My nearest neighbor is a quarter of a mile away and he's thinking of getting one too. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
my opinion on this is its more to do with the quality and dryness of the wood you are using that causes the smoke i have been heating with wood for many years and when you put non seasoned wood into any wood stove be it indoor or out door you are going to get incomplete combustion people often put green (unseasoned) wood in a fire to make it last longer if they are going to be away an extended period of time my sisters outdoor furnace is one of the newer catalyctic ones and really doesnt smoke that much From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 19:30:19 + Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO as i understand it , the wood boilers burn cooler because of the water jacket and this produces a more incomplete combustion -- Original message -- From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] A friend of mine installs and services outdoor wood boilers for a dealer. He's been after me to buy one. several towns around here are trying to ban them because they tend to produce low level smoke when the air is still. There's some opposition to them around here too. Is it just a problem in developed areas (towns) or is the smoke somehow different from the smoke from my woodstove?My nearest neighbor is a quarter of a mile away and he's thinking of getting one too. Tom - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 11:37 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO a neighbor wanted me too install theirs. the problem was it was a non pressurized system and vented. he had a 2 story house meaning the water pressure from the second floor required him to have a heat exchanger to operate with his heating system. Installation turned out to be a lot more expensive than they had planned. several towns around here are trying to ban them because they tend to produce low level smoke when the air is still. personally , if a neighbor complains about what i'm doing then they paid to much to live next to me -- Original message -- From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Zeke,What is it being used for? Mostly additives to animal food (dog food, and probably factory chickens and cows), and allegedly soap and detergent (google yellow grease) I have read a bit about the fate of WVO from dumpsters .ingredient in animal food. I had the opportunity to talk to someone who worked in a lab that evaluated WVO. He said that WVO that meets standards can be used in food for human consumption here in the US. He said that WVO that was below standard might be exported, used to make a food product, and then exported back to theUS for human consumption. He also said that the real bad stuff is used inpet food/animal feed. I don't know if the food for human consumption is factor fiction, but I have avoided the products that he mentioned as containing WVO. I haven't noticed any dramatic increase in dog or cat food. Chicken feed and other grain-based animal food for livestock seems to reflect increases in grain prices. I don't think the switch from charging the restaurant for WVO pickup, to paying the restaurant for the WVO is due to its use in animal food. The increased cost of vegetable oil for cooking has caused some restaurants to change their oil less frequently. Others have switched to cheaper veg oil. Some fast food restaurants filter and re-use their oil. I was wondering if there is now a market for used veg. oil for cooking.Will it be used in more food for human consumption? Will restaurants resort to using veg oil that has been discarded from other restaurants? I have heard of a BD producer coming on line about a hundred or so miles from me. While BD is not available at the pump, home heating oil suppliers offer B20 now. Diesel fuel at $5/gal might be making BD production profitable even if the producer must pay for WVO collected from 100 ormore miles away. I just came back from sunny Florida (US) where I picked up a nice1985 Mercedes 300CD for my wife. Maybe I'll just match the price for veg oil,do conversions on our two diesels and run them on veg oil rather than BD. Heating the house may be a problem. Anybody know about outdoor wood-fired boilers? Best to All, Tom - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO It means that the economy is starting to value stuff that used to be regarded as a waste product (a concept that does not exist in nature). It'sgood that the economy is coming more in line with reality. Though
[Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
Hello All, A restaurant that has been happily giving me their WVO for the past three years received a letter from the company that they used to pay used to pick up their WVO. The company is offering to pay them them $0.35/pound for their WVO 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubies of WVO going for more than $10! I found it hard to believe. I stopped at another restaurant and asked to have their WVO, hoping to maintain my steady oil flow, and was told that someone pays them $2/gal for their waste oil. Does anybody know what is happening here? Is the WVO being converted to BD? With diesel hovering around $5/gal and with subsidies (in US) for BD, is it profitable to pay $2/gal for WVO and then convert it into BD? Or Is it being filtered and re-sold as veg oil? I've been told that the veg oil restaurants bought last year at $15/cubie now cost $35 - $40/cubie. I have a bad feeling about this. Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080517/78ed9c2d/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Company is buying WVO
It means that the economy is starting to value stuff that used to be regarded as a waste product (a concept that does not exist in nature). It's good that the economy is coming more in line with reality. Though perhaps not for you in this case. What is it being used for? Mostly additives to animal food (dogfood, and probably factory chickens and cows), and alledgedly soap and detergent (google yellow grease) I know a few years ago, a few of us investigated buying filtered WVO from one of the companies that collects it commercially from restuarants. At that time, it was going to be $1/gal for filtered WVO, buying it 100 gallons at a time, I think. Diesel was around $2.40 or so. I don't know what else that company sold the filtered WVO for, but they were willing to sell it for use as fuel as well. Z On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 5:50 PM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, A restaurant that has been happily giving me their WVO for the past three years received a letter from the company that they used to pay used to pick up their WVO. The company is offering to pay them them $0.35/pound for their WVO 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubies of WVO going for more than $10! I found it hard to believe. I stopped at another restaurant and asked to have their WVO, hoping to maintain my steady oil flow, and was told that someone pays them $2/gal for their waste oil. Does anybody know what is happening here? Is the WVO being converted to BD? With diesel hovering around $5/gal and with subsidies (in US) for BD, is it profitable to pay $2/gal for WVO and then convert it into BD? Or Is it being filtered and re-sold as veg oil? I've been told that the veg oil restaurants bought last year at $15/cubie now cost $35 - $40/cubie. I have a bad feeling about this. Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080517/78ed9c2d/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080517/0bcd255f/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
