Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines
Hi Ethanol is close to gasoline when referring to fueling energy to an engine. Therefore cetane number is low even though ethanol prefers higher pressure than regular gasoline. So ethanol diesel blend to be viable as fuel and easy the blending has to have two supports: cetane improver additive to easy combustion and a electronic/software combination which can adjust ignition timing and pumpin all the time. ( Please remember atomiztion is diferent also!) In order to reduce the amount of additive ( very expensive and it is like TNT - worsening stability) I assume they use some diesel so it helps ignition (Please note) This reminds me the natural gas/diesel dual fuel engine where the diesel is used as the spark plug and the electronics do the rest. Please remember when we have two types of fuel two explosions will always happen and in the case of the diesel/cetane improver/alcohol we might have three explosions and this is not good for the engine so in the long run efficiency is jeopardize severely. Hakan you are right: The cetane improver experiences with alcohol have been done a long time by Scania and in fact they tried to introduce this technology in Brasil. It is not used because it was considered too expensive. The consumption should be much higher than the 100% diesel ( energy content per mass and volume admission in the combustion chamber ) and considering the new refining technologies the emissions of the new blend should not be better. We still do not know the effect of aldehyde on the environment a please pay attention nitrates generates NOx thru exhaust pipe and aldehyde and NOx are always there when using alcohol. Also diesel engines do operate at higher temperatures and this can affect exhaust gases worsening emissions environmentally speaking. In my opinion we have to scrutinize this approach thouruglly and this approach it is not novel. I love ppo svo and biodiesel. very best fo rall of us Chic Hakan Falk wrote: Keith, If I remembered right, the Swedish diesel buses are running on a wood alcohol mix, with some sort of additive. In Sweden it is now more and more common that the buses use biofuel. Hakan At 18:47 07/06/2006, you wrote: Hi Tomas Hi, this one fuel combination is interesting. I've never heard about such possibility before: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/xcelplus_acquir.html -- Tomas Juknevicius Fuel-Cycle Energy and Emission Impacts of Ethanol-Diesel Blends in Urban Buses and Farming Tractors, (July 2003, 992kb pdf) http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/280.pdf The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel by S.W. Mathewson Chapter 3 UTILIZATION OF ALCOHOL FUELS Diesel Engines http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual3.html Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines
Just wanting to make some remarks . The Scania ethanol buses are running on a special ethanol quality blend consisting from ethanol (95%), a cetane improver called Bereid, which I am told is a polyglycol, and a lubricant. The injection timing is normal (approx 20 degrees before TDC) and all engines are equipped with intercooler which functions as an air heater when the engine runs on idle. Ethanol is not self-evident as a diesel fuel, but progress has been done. Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: FRANCISCO To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 4:25 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines HiEthanol is close to gasoline when referring to fueling energy to an engine. Therefore cetane number is low even though ethanol prefers higher pressure than regular gasoline. So ethanol diesel blend to be viable as fuel and easy the blending has to have two supports: cetane improver additive to easy combustion and a electronic/software combination which can adjust ignition timing and pumpin all the time. ( Please remember atomiztion is diferent also!) In order to reduce the amount of additive ( very expensive and it is like TNT - worsening stability) I assume they use some diesel so it helps ignition (Please note) This reminds me the natural gas/diesel dual fuel engine where the diesel is used as the spark plug and the electronics do the rest. Please remember when we have two types of fuel two explosions will always happen and in the case of the diesel/cetane improver/alcohol we might have three explosions and this is not good for the engine so in the long run efficiency is jeopardize severely.Hakan you are right: The cetane improver experiences with alcohol have been done a long time by Scania and in fact they tried to introduce this technology in Brasil. It is not used because it was considered too expensive. The consumption should be much higher than the 100% diesel ( energy content per mass and volume admission in the combustion chamber ) and considering the new refining technologies the emissions of the new blend should not be better. We still do not know the effect of aldehyde on the environment a please pay attention nitrates generates NOx thru exhaust pipe and aldehyde and NOx are always there when using alcohol. Also diesel engines do operate at higher temperatures and this can affect exhaust gases worsening emissions environmentally speaking.In my opinion we have to scrutinize this approach thouruglly and this approach it is not novel. I love ppo svo and biodiesel.very best fo rall of usChicHakan Falk wrote: Keith, If I remembered right, the Swedish diesel buses are running on a wood alcohol mix, with some sort of additive. In Sweden it is now more and more common that the buses use biofuel. Hakan At 18:47 07/06/2006, you wrote: Hi Tomas Hi, this one fuel combination is interesting. I've never heard about such possibility before: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/xcelplus_acquir.html -- Tomas Juknevicius Fuel-Cycle Energy and Emission Impacts of Ethanol-Diesel Blends in Urban Buses and Farming Tractors, (July 2003, 992kb pdf) http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/280.pdf The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel by S.W. Mathewson Chapter 3 UTILIZATION OF ALCOHOL FUELS Diesel Engines http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual3.html Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines
Ah, it just opens the new energy path. If only the BD could be used for diesels, only the energy from oily plants can be harvested for usage in cars. With this new path, more avenues are opened. Energy input from starchy plants (especially keeping in mind the ethanol generation from celulose) can now be tapped. This setup might be more suitable for colder climates, than current rapeseed approach. Anyway, ethanol burning in the diesel is more economical than burning the same ethanol in otto cycle engines (the current crop of flex-fuel vehicles). The only nagging question is that additive mentioned in the article. Jason Katie wrote: if the exhaust isnt any better than a gasoline engine on ethanol, what difference would it make whether or not it was ethy or BD? it sounds like the additive isnt all the best either -- Tomas Juknevicius ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines
Hi, this one fuel combination is interesting. I've never heard about such possibility before: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/xcelplus_acquir.html -- Tomas Juknevicius ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines
Hi Tomas Hi, this one fuel combination is interesting. I've never heard about such possibility before: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/xcelplus_acquir.html -- Tomas Juknevicius Fuel-Cycle Energy and Emission Impacts of Ethanol-Diesel Blends in Urban Buses and Farming Tractors, (July 2003, 992kb pdf) http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/280.pdf The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel by S.W. Mathewson Chapter 3 UTILIZATION OF ALCOHOL FUELS Diesel Engines http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual3.html Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines
Keith, If I remembered right, the Swedish diesel buses are running on a wood alcohol mix, with some sort of additive. In Sweden it is now more and more common that the buses use biofuel. Hakan At 18:47 07/06/2006, you wrote: Hi Tomas Hi, this one fuel combination is interesting. I've never heard about such possibility before: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/xcelplus_acquir.html -- Tomas Juknevicius Fuel-Cycle Energy and Emission Impacts of Ethanol-Diesel Blends in Urban Buses and Farming Tractors, (July 2003, 992kb pdf) http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/280.pdf The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel by S.W. Mathewson Chapter 3 UTILIZATION OF ALCOHOL FUELS Diesel Engines http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual3.html Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines
if the exhaust isnt any better than a gasoline engine on ethanol, what difference would it make whether or not it was ethy or BD? it sounds like the additive isnt all the best either - Original Message - From: Tomas Juknevicius [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 8:43 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines Hi, this one fuel combination is interesting. I've never heard about such possibility before: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/xcelplus_acquir.html -- Tomas Juknevicius ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.1/355 - Release Date: 6/2/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/358 - Release Date: 6/7/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
