Re: [Biofuel] Is Methane Production in Urban conditions possible?
Helo Bioteo There are several good problems regarding aplication of Bates methods that need a good engineering work. Our small research group wish that our biofuel members can learn and solve the problems one by one , but need time and effort as your case Some data are available on food waste to fuel from DOE , USA, Baba atomic research center(BARC) , India .To acess this you can use google scholar. Food wastes need animal waste too , also a pretreatment process some milling , hydrolysis and solubilization.You can achive this by using a part of recycled efluents.Using solar energy at 50 C was sucessfuly done by BARC and thus the enzymatic hydrolysis is made possible as well as parcial sterization . Then you can use Indian , chinese , plastic plug flow bioreactor to produce methane . Instead of storage using compressor ,storgae in tyre can be achied and also a concrete tanks coverd with reinforced fiber glass tanks. can be also done . The Chines type simple closed tank bioreactor can be also used for running the motor. Here in Brasil some farmer has sucessfuly stored the biogas doing some more reinforcements to fiber glass and also made posssible compression using stones on the tank, simple less costlier as there is no power consumption for compresion Using activated carbon in the storage tank . low pressure compressor can be used to achieve high pressure as you wish and this method is still under experimental phase . Very high pressure is not needed and hence no problem in biogas storage, as the the motor can do the compression In several country europe , usa , India , china ic engine are operated without the use of compressor. The use of compressor is very good if you can have very large plug flow plastic biodigestor to make the agitation by recirculating the biogas. Morever horizantal low pressure tanks can be an economical option using compressor to be used as storage tank before combustion in IC .Care should be taken to remove the H2S in the biogas before storge Thus expert knowelge and engineering consultancy are needed so that your project will have sucess. Several good case study are avaialbale in internet that can be the starting point and also do read again http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Feel free to contact us and go ahead solving the problems Wish you best sucess On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:38:50 -0800 (PST), [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In urban conditions I obviously dont have too much access to dung. But what i do have access to is an university canteen. Lots of food wasted there. Has anydbody porducede methane form food scraps? I could collect from there. And put in to the digester. Has anybody done this? How should i porceed? Get the scrap food, mush it up with a little with water. Add a little dung, humand dung, after allthe food was prepared for humans. And then wait? Iexpect it hould get good yields since it has a laot of protein in it. I read the article on beates chicken car but what i dont understand about it was how did he sotre the methane in his car. Obviously it was in constant production mode. So he either had a very strong digester where the pressure would buildup or he had a very large digester or gas collector. Another option is that he did very short trips. I have experience in binding plastic sheets with a special welding machine. The first thing that came in to my mind whe i read about digesters was to make one very long and flexible one like intestines. That way I could control the folw manually by pushing if necessary. The problem im thinkin of at the moment is storing the gas in the car. Does anybody know to which pressure i can inflate the inner tire of a lorry? I think that it should have atleast 100L of volume, and with pressure i would expand a little but if it can hold pressures up to 6-7 atm (with its volume expanding to 300L or so) then it would be just enough for a round trip to work and back. I calculated that the equivalent of one gallon of gasoline is 7,8m3 of methane. A 15L diving bottle compressed at 100 bars could only hold 1500L = 1.5 m3 so i would need like 4, and that would start ghettin expensive because of the necessary regulators. And most importantly i dont have a compressor that can compress to 100 bars. And putting fridge compressors would work but that mabn become risky at such high pressures. With the tire i could have the same amount in a single container without the need for regualtors. I could use several tires(one in the back seat etc) to expand the range... this seems like the only feasible solution at the moment. Thanks Teoman
Re: [Biofuel] Is Methane Production in Urban conditions possible?
Please add these technologies to the list: (i)charcoal or biomass driven cars like those used by Hitler in WW2; (ii) raw natural rubber crude. a hydrocarbon, which is cheap can be pyrolysed/dry-distilled to dipentene/isoprene. Mix it with gasoline for auto fuel. Am posting these for other members to take up since I am retired and not able to do these experiments anymore. Especially those in tropical regions. The rubber tree is natures best hydrocarbon synthesiser. Cheers. Manickh Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: More than 100 years ago, the methane gas was collected from the city suer system and used for street lights. It ha been said before, but it is important to understand, that it is many ready for use technologies are out there and they already proven their usability. Hakan At 03:59 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: My experiments done a few yearsago suggests u can setup easily anywhere. I was operating it as CO2 generator using garden waste and soil. CO2 generation was absorbed in alkali and found to follow the observed rate for methanogenesis which yields equal quantities of CH4 and CO2. I just used large plastic can with lid. Maybe cars can be turbocharged easily with CH4 after removing CO2. Any comments? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:In urban conditions I obviously dont have too much access to dung. But what i do have access to is an university canteen. Lots of food wasted there. Has anydbody porducede methane form food scraps? I could collect from there. And put in to the digester. Has anybody done this? How should i porceed? Get the scrap food, mush it up with a little with water. Add a little dung, humand dung, after allthe food was prepared for humans. And then wait? Iexpect it hould get good yields since it has a laot of protein in it. I read the article on beates chicken car but what i dont understand about it was how did he sotre the methane in his car. Obviously it was in constant production mode. So he either had a very strong digester where the pressure would buildup or he had a very large digester or gas collector. Another option is that he did very short trips. I have experience in binding plastic sheets with a special welding machine. The first thing that came in to my mind whe i read about digesters was to make one very long and flexible one like intestines. That way I could control the folw manually by pushing if necessary. The problem im thinkin of at the moment is storing the gas in the car. Does anybody know to which pressure i can inflate the inner tire of a lorry? I think that it should have atleast 100L of volume, and with pressure i would expand a little but if it can hold pressures up to 6-7 atm (with its volume expanding to 300L or so) then it would be just enough for a round trip to work and back. I calculated that the equivalent of one gallon of gasoline is 7,8m3 of methane. A 15L diving bottle compressed at 100 bars could only hold 1500L = 1.5 m3 so i would need like 4, and that would start ghettin expensive because of the necessary regulators. And most importantly i dont have a compressor that can compress to 100 bars. And putting fridge compressors would work but that mabn become risky at such high pressures. With the tire i could have the same amount in a single container without the need for regualtors. I could use several tires(one in the back seat etc) to expand the range... this seems like the only feasible solution at the moment. Thanks Teoman Helo Teoman Surley all soilid wastes can be sucessfully transformed in biomethane.Very good methods from Bates chicken car experiences avalible can be used for any solid wastes Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htm Also french Biomass King work is also more relevant for you. We are involved in the new process developments to do acelerated aerbic composting via biomass seperation and recycling . Yet this is in experimental stage to reduce the composting time from months into 10 days and inolve mixed bacterial and fungi biological catalysts Thus you need to combine two process as per the method of Bate: first the making waste solid residues into parcial composting , then uso this compostied material with animal wastes in anerabic biodigesters..Thus your can be run the car using this compresed biogas . We are also considering the use of hydrated fuel ethanol and gasoline to use together with biogas due to its higher Co2 , thus making higher fuel efficiency internal combustiom motor more efficient and fexivel and competitive. You need also some filters (ironsponge) to remove the hydrogen sulfide . The whole process need some habilitation from engineerig side . Thus your project on the waste into fuel has good green future .Go ahead you can wn l all the problems with our biofuel group members help but also good to have some engineering person involved. sd Pannirselvam Brasill sd Pannirslvam
Re: [Biofuel] Is Methane Production in Urban conditions possible?
In urban conditions I obviously dont have too much access to dung. But what i do have access to is an university canteen. Lots of food wasted there. Has anydbody porducede methane form food scraps? I could collect from there. And put in to the digester. Has anybody done this? How should i porceed? Get the scrap food, mush it up with a little with water. Add a little dung, humand dung, after allthe food was prepared for humans. And then wait? Iexpect it hould get good yields since it has a laot of protein in it. I read the article on beates chicken car but what i dont understand about it was how did he sotre the methane in his car. Obviously it was in constant production mode. So he either had a very strong digester where the pressure would buildup or he had a very large digester or gas collector. Another option is that he did very short trips. I have experience in binding plastic sheets with a special welding machine. The first thing that came in to my mind whe i read about digesters was to make one very long and flexible one like intestines. That way I could control the folw manually by pushing if necessary. The problem im thinkin of at the moment is storing the gas in the car. Does anybody know to which pressure i can inflate the inner tire of a lorry? I think that it should have atleast 100L of volume, and with pressure i would expand a little but if it can hold pressures up to 6-7 atm (with its volume expanding to 300L or so) then it would be just enough for a round trip to work and back. I calculated that the equivalent of one gallon of gasoline is 7,8m3 of methane. A 15L diving bottle compressed at 100 bars could only hold 1500L = 1.5 m3 so i would need like 4, and that would start ghettin expensive because of the necessary regulators. And most importantly i dont have a compressor that can compress to 100 bars. And putting fridge compressors would work but that mabn become risky at such high pressures. With the tire i could have the same amount in a single container without the need for regualtors. I could use several tires(one in the back seat etc) to expand the range... this seems like the only feasible solution at the moment. Thanks Teoman Helo Teoman Surley all soilid wastes can be sucessfully transformed in biomethane.Very good methods from Bates chicken car experiences avalible can be used for any solid wastes Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htm Also french Biomass King work is also more relevant for you. We are involved in the new process developments to do acelerated aerbic composting via biomass seperation and recycling . Yet this is in experimental stage to reduce the composting time from months into 10 days and inolve mixed bacterial and fungi biological catalysts Thus you need to combine two process as per the method of Bate: first the making waste solid residues into parcial composting , then uso this compostied material with animal wastes in anerabic biodigesters..Thus your can be run the car using this compresed biogas . We are also considering the use of hydrated fuel ethanol and gasoline to use together with biogas due to its higher Co2 , thus making higher fuel efficiency internal combustiom motor more efficient and fexivel and competitive. You need also some filters (ironsponge) to remove the hydrogen sulfide . The whole process need some habilitation from engineerig side . Thus your project on the waste into fuel has good green future .Go ahead you can wn l all the problems with our biofuel group members help but also good to have some engineering person involved. sd Pannirselvam Brasill sd Pannirslvam On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:48:33 -0800 (PST), [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone produce methane in urban conditions? Can i produce enough methane to run my car? How large a processor would i need and what could i feed it with? Old newspapers and food scraps and grass once in a while from the appartments garden... For the car im thinking of large tank that i will use 2 or three fridge compressors in series to compress the gas to about 40 atm. Thanks Teoman ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Is Methane Production in Urban conditions possible?
My experiments done a few yearsago suggests u can setup easily anywhere. I was operating it as CO2 generator using garden waste and soil. CO2 generation was absorbed in alkali and found to follow the observed rate for methanogenesis which yields equal quantities of CH4 and CO2. I just used large plastic can with lid. Maybe cars can be turbocharged easily with CH4 after removing CO2. Any comments? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:In urban conditions I obviously dont have too much access to dung. But what i do have access to is an university canteen. Lots of food wasted there. Has anydbody porducede methane form food scraps? I could collect from there. And put in to the digester. Has anybody done this? How should i porceed? Get the scrap food, mush it up with a little with water. Add a little dung, humand dung, after allthe food was prepared for humans. And then wait? Iexpect it hould get good yields since it has a laot of protein in it. I read the article on beates chicken car but what i dont understand about it was how did he sotre the methane in his car. Obviously it was in constant production mode. So he either had a very strong digester where the pressure would buildup or he had a very large digester or gas collector. Another option is that he did very short trips. I have experience in binding plastic sheets with a special welding machine. The first thing that came in to my mind whe i read about digesters was to make one very long and flexible one like intestines. That way I could control the folw manually by pushing if necessary. The problem im thinkin of at the moment is storing the gas in the car. Does anybody know to which pressure i can inflate the inner tire of a lorry? I think that it should have atleast 100L of volume, and with pressure i would expand a little but if it can hold pressures up to 6-7 atm (with its volume expanding to 300L or so) then it would be just enough for a round trip to work and back. I calculated that the equivalent of one gallon of gasoline is 7,8m3 of methane. A 15L diving bottle compressed at 100 bars could only hold 1500L = 1.5 m3 so i would need like 4, and that would start ghettin expensive because of the necessary regulators. And most importantly i dont have a compressor that can compress to 100 bars. And putting fridge compressors would work but that mabn become risky at such high pressures. With the tire i could have the same amount in a single container without the need for regualtors. I could use several tires(one in the back seat etc) to expand the range... this seems like the only feasible solution at the moment. Thanks Teoman Helo Teoman Surley all soilid wastes can be sucessfully transformed in biomethane.Very good methods from Bates chicken car experiences avalible can be used for any solid wastes Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htm Also french Biomass King work is also more relevant for you. We are involved in the new process developments to do acelerated aerbic composting via biomass seperation and recycling . Yet this is in experimental stage to reduce the composting time from months into 10 days and inolve mixed bacterial and fungi biological catalysts Thus you need to combine two process as per the method of Bate: first the making waste solid residues into parcial composting , then uso this compostied material with animal wastes in anerabic biodigesters..Thus your can be run the car using this compresed biogas . We are also considering the use of hydrated fuel ethanol and gasoline to use together with biogas due to its higher Co2 , thus making higher fuel efficiency internal combustiom motor more efficient and fexivel and competitive. You need also some filters (ironsponge) to remove the hydrogen sulfide . The whole process need some habilitation from engineerig side . Thus your project on the waste into fuel has good green future .Go ahead you can wn l all the problems with our biofuel group members help but also good to have some engineering person involved. sd Pannirselvam Brasill sd Pannirslvam On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:48:33 -0800 (PST), [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone produce methane in urban conditions? Can i produce enough methane to run my car? How large a processor would i need and what could i feed it with? Old newspapers and food scraps and grass once in a while from the appartments garden... For the car im thinking of large tank that i will use 2 or three fridge compressors in series to compress the gas to about 40 atm. Thanks Teoman ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Is Methane Production in Urban conditions possible?
More than 100 years ago, the methane gas was collected from the city suer system and used for street lights. It ha been said before, but it is important to understand, that it is many ready for use technologies are out there and they already proven their usability. Hakan At 03:59 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: My experiments done a few yearsago suggests u can setup easily anywhere. I was operating it as CO2 generator using garden waste and soil. CO2 generation was absorbed in alkali and found to follow the observed rate for methanogenesis which yields equal quantities of CH4 and CO2. I just used large plastic can with lid. Maybe cars can be turbocharged easily with CH4 after removing CO2. Any comments? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:In urban conditions I obviously dont have too much access to dung. But what i do have access to is an university canteen. Lots of food wasted there. Has anydbody porducede methane form food scraps? I could collect from there. And put in to the digester. Has anybody done this? How should i porceed? Get the scrap food, mush it up with a little with water. Add a little dung, humand dung, after allthe food was prepared for humans. And then wait? Iexpect it hould get good yields since it has a laot of protein in it. I read the article on beates chicken car but what i dont understand about it was how did he sotre the methane in his car. Obviously it was in constant production mode. So he either had a very strong digester where the pressure would buildup or he had a very large digester or gas collector. Another option is that he did very short trips. I have experience in binding plastic sheets with a special welding machine. The first thing that came in to my mind whe i read about digesters was to make one very long and flexible one like intestines. That way I could control the folw manually by pushing if necessary. The problem im thinkin of at the moment is storing the gas in the car. Does anybody know to which pressure i can inflate the inner tire of a lorry? I think that it should have atleast 100L of volume, and with pressure i would expand a little but if it can hold pressures up to 6-7 atm (with its volume expanding to 300L or so) then it would be just enough for a round trip to work and back. I calculated that the equivalent of one gallon of gasoline is 7,8m3 of methane. A 15L diving bottle compressed at 100 bars could only hold 1500L = 1.5 m3 so i would need like 4, and that would start ghettin expensive because of the necessary regulators. And most importantly i dont have a compressor that can compress to 100 bars. And putting fridge compressors would work but that mabn become risky at such high pressures. With the tire i could have the same amount in a single container without the need for regualtors. I could use several tires(one in the back seat etc) to expand the range... this seems like the only feasible solution at the moment. Thanks Teoman Helo Teoman Surley all soilid wastes can be sucessfully transformed in biomethane.Very good methods from Bates chicken car experiences avalible can be used for any solid wastes Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htm Also french Biomass King work is also more relevant for you. We are involved in the new process developments to do acelerated aerbic composting via biomass seperation and recycling . Yet this is in experimental stage to reduce the composting time from months into 10 days and inolve mixed bacterial and fungi biological catalysts Thus you need to combine two process as per the method of Bate: first the making waste solid residues into parcial composting , then uso this compostied material with animal wastes in anerabic biodigesters..Thus your can be run the car using this compresed biogas . We are also considering the use of hydrated fuel ethanol and gasoline to use together with biogas due to its higher Co2 , thus making higher fuel efficiency internal combustiom motor more efficient and fexivel and competitive. You need also some filters (ironsponge) to remove the hydrogen sulfide . The whole process need some habilitation from engineerig side . Thus your project on the waste into fuel has good green future .Go ahead you can wn l all the problems with our biofuel group members help but also good to have some engineering person involved. sd Pannirselvam Brasill sd Pannirslvam On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:48:33 -0800 (PST), [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone produce methane in urban conditions? Can i produce enough methane to run my car? How large a processor would i need and what could i feed it with? Old newspapers and food scraps and grass once in a while from the appartments garden... For the car im thinking of large tank that i will use 2 or three fridge compressors in series to compress the gas to about 40 atm. Thanks Teoman ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http
Re: [Biofuel] Is Methane Production in Urban conditions possible?
Hi Teoman ; --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone produce methane in urban conditions? Can i produce enough methane to run my car? How large a processor would i need and what could i feed it with? Old newspapers and food scraps and grass once in a while from the appartments garden... Can't be very helpful here, but I understand methane digestors are typically large and produce small amounts of gas, enough for cooking. New work appearing on the net about feeding oil press cake and other feedstocks which appear to increase gas production significantly. For the car im thinking of large tank that i will use 2 or three fridge compressors in series to compress the gas to about 40 atm. Consider an oxygen cylinder or a compressed natural gas cylinder, but forget the fridge compressor idea. The seals and mechanics are not designed to withstand 40 atm's, and the seals will probably quickly leak or worse (explode). I have seen on the net a small 50 atm pump that looks like a bicycle hand pump, used for compressing air into paint ball cylinders. These are available in all sizes and prices and motorized. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Is Methane Production in Urban conditions possible?
Helo Teoman Surley all soilid wastes can be sucessfully transformed in biomethane.Very good methods from Bates chicken car experiences avalible can be used for any solid wastes Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htm Also french Biomass King work is also more relevant for you. We are involved in the new process developments to do acelerated aerbic composting via biomass seperation and recycling . Yet this is in experimental stage to reduce the composting time from months into 10 days and inolve mixed bacterial and fungi biological catalysts Thus you need to combine two process as per the method of Bate: first the making waste solid residues into parcial composting , then uso this compostied material with animal wastes in anerabic biodigesters..Thus your can be run the car using this compresed biogas . We are also considering the use of hydrated fuel ethanol and gasoline to use together with biogas due to its higher Co2 , thus making higher fuel efficiency internal combustiom motor more efficient and fexivel and competitive. You need also some filters (ironsponge) to remove the hydrogen sulfide . The whole process need some habilitation from engineerig side . Thus your project on the waste into fuel has good green future .Go ahead you can wn l all the problems with our biofuel group members help but also good to have some engineering person involved. sd Pannirselvam Brasill sd Pannirslvam On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:48:33 -0800 (PST), [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone produce methane in urban conditions? Can i produce enough methane to run my car? How large a processor would i need and what could i feed it with? Old newspapers and food scraps and grass once in a while from the appartments garden... For the car im thinking of large tank that i will use 2 or three fridge compressors in series to compress the gas to about 40 atm. Thanks Teoman ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Pagandai V Pannirselvam Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN Departamento de Engenharia Qumica - DEQ Centro de Tecnologia - CT Programa de Ps Graduao em Engenharia Qumica - PPGEQ Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPEC Av. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universitrio CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil Residence : Av Odilon gome de lima, 2951, Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102 Capim Macio EP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - Brasil Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20 2171557 Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20 2171557 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Is Methane Production in Urban conditions possible?
Does anyone produce methane in urban conditions? Can i produce enough methane to run my car? How large a processor would i need and what could i feed it with? Old newspapers and food scraps and grass once in a while from the appartments garden... For the car im thinking of large tank that i will use 2 or three fridge compressors in series to compress the gas to about 40 atm. Thanks Teoman ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
