Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
wouldn't work , but I would question the utility of two step conversion (hydrolysis, and esterification) as apposed to the simpler transesterification. Andrew Cunningham wrote: There were two things that I was planning on trying, but considering the solubility info you provided I think I may try a third. The first concept I was planning on trying was a two stage process. The first stage would be weak cation ion exchange to remove any soaps followed by acid hydrolysis of the triglycerides. This would leave a FFA layer and a water/glycerol layer. which is simpler to separate, water/glycerol or alcohol/glycerol? I would think the latter. The short chain FFA (c6) would wash out with the water and not waste alcohol in the second stage. Do you really expect to have anything but a trace of short chain fatty acids? After the water/glycerin is drained, the second stage would be a solid acid catalyst esterification with IPA boiling with reflux. This would release the water from the FFA so 3A molecular sieves will be used to remove water from the vapor and reflux. As the reaction progresses the water will be removed leaving behind pure IPester that won't need washing or any post treatment. The main draw back from this process would be regenerating the water from the molecular sieve which will take on around 5lb of water per 100lb of IPesters formed. On the small scale that will be produced the commercial waste oil furnace will provide the heat needed for the regeneration. The main benefits from this process will be the cloud point of the final product and useable feedstocks. as I recall there is only a few degrees C lower cloud point for isopropyl esters than methyl. Is the extra effort really worth it? This process allows use of larger alcohols that will reduce the cloud point for winter driving. Additionally, between the two stages the saturated FFA can be easily removed as they solidify at higher temperatures. I really don't think they will separate easily. They are completely miscible with each other. Saturated FFA could also be a viable co-product. This would also allow selection of nearly pure oleic acid for the second stage which will give a BioD with a lower cloud point than winter diesel. usually the purer the substance the higher it melting point. The next benefit would be that trap grease and other very high FFA acid oils are perfect for this process. I would love to hear what you think. Andy What you are talking about transcends the backyard biofuel approach, but it should work. Good luck -- ~~ Bob Allen, born just fine the first time http://ozarker.org ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
(This is in reference to IPA reactions but could use other alcohols.) The simpler transesterification is a two step process as well, the reaction and then the wash. This one has the first reaction which is the wash that leaves high quality glycerine and the second step turns the FFA to pure IPesters. The single phase that you mentioned with IPA and IPesters/WVO makes me wonder how well they mix and stay together. Would it possible to mix WVO, IPA and a little acid and let it settle out the particles in a sealed container as slowly turns into BioD over the week. So a week later you syphon off the top 80% boil and recover the excess IPA then let the IPesters settle from the glycerine and you are done :) The nice thing if this works is that the thinner WVO/IPA mix would have a lower viscosity and settle much faster so at the end of the settle timeframe your BioD is ready. Andy On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:35:10 -0600, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howdy Andy, nothing in your suggested procedure would suggest it wouldn't work , but I would question the utility of two step conversion (hydrolysis, and esterification) as apposed to the simpler transesterification. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Okay, I see what you are saying now. Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:41:20 -0600, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Isopropanol is less polar than methanol therefore everything stays in one phase without any separation. Andrew Cunningham wrote: Ken, That sounds about right with the base. I haven't given any consideration of the separation. Are you saying that the glycerol would stay in the IPesters or the the excess IPA? Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:34:42 -0800, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 1/14/05 6:05 AM, Andrew Cunningham at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. Are you talking about using isopropanol in a base-catalyzed transesterification? From what I know about the behavior of ethanol compared to methanol, I'd be surprised if it worked at all. I think VERY little isopropoxide would be produced, and possibly KOH wouldn't even be soluble (this would be easy to check, of course, I'm just being an armchair commentator here :-)). Even if you could get the alkoxide to form, I bet the glycerol would be too soluble to ever drop out. Have you ever actually made biodiesel this way in small quantities? -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
I looked but I don't see enzymes. Can you reference the message ID numbers? I can only find quotes saying there is information and not the information. Thanks Andy Hello JanI don't think the Biox process claims to use lipase. Seems to use just about everything else though, except a pinch of salt maybe.Lipase catalysis is an established biodiesel production method, with quite a few advantages, and some disadvantages, but not done on a backyard scale yet, though quite a lot of people are interested in that.BestKeith In your email with the subject re:enzymes I found: added an inert cosolvent to the base-catalyzed methylation of vegetable oils to speed the reaction time.Before this discovery, it took anywhere from two to four hours to complete the biodiesel manufacturing process, Boocock says. By adding an inert cosolvent, such as methyl t-butyl ether, to the process we produced methyl esters from vegetable oils in seven minutes On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 04:32:59 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith, Is :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) in reference to base catalyzed reactions or something else? I'm sorry Andy, I don't see how it could refer to anything other than the Biox reaction, it's not ambiguous. If you'd checked the links I gave you you'd have found not only further confirmation of that but a lot more information, including some you just said you've been looking for. So why don't you just do that? Here they are again: See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Check the links in those posts. It's a blind alley anyway, unless you really are doing advanced stuff (more advanced than Biox). Have you made any biodiesel yet, single-stage base test batches for instance? Keith Andy On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 02:07:51 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Andy I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) Rather thoroughly discussed here previously, a few times. I think calling it the BIOX reaction might be somethinbg of a misnomer, for one thing. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Check the links in those posts. Best wishes Keith Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Keith, I think part of the confusion was that my email that started a rather long thread had two separate topics. I had no idea that it would launch such a discussion, if I had I would have separated the posts. Andy On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 04:32:59 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith, I haven't found anything to expect an enzyme in the Biox reaction. I don't think Ken or I were talking about the Biox reaction. Ken cut your para on Biox and doubts using isopropanol in a base-catalyzed reaction will work, I agreed and posted a link to information on using isopropanol with enzymes. That seems perfectly clear. I think it is simply using MTBE or similar to create a single phase so the reaction takes place faster. I am trying to get copies of the articles from the 90's when this technique was discussed a lot more. Do you have any of the articles on using cosolvents? This was covered in my other post to you, see next response. Keith Andy On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 02:07:51 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 1/14/05 6:05 AM, Andrew Cunningham at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. Are you talking about using isopropanol in a base-catalyzed transesterification? From what I know about the behavior of ethanol compared to methanol, I'd be surprised if it worked at all. I think VERY little isopropoxide would be produced, and possibly KOH wouldn't even be soluble (this would be easy to check, of course, I'm just being an armchair commentator here :-)). Even if you could get the alkoxide to form, I bet the glycerol would be too soluble to ever drop out. Have you ever actually made biodiesel this way in small quantities? -K I agree with you Ken, I don't think it works. Several people who know what they're at have told me they'd tried it without any success. AFAIK it's an enzyme-catalysed process - ie, it's lab stuff, not (yet) for the real world. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/28089/ Date: 2003-09-11 From: Keith Addison Subject: Re: R: [biofuel] Butanol v Methanol (Foglia's patent on branched alkyl esters) Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Keith, The IPA thing I will be trying is separate from me looking into Biox an cosolvents. Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:45:36 -0800, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 14, 2005, at 10:40 AM, Andrew Cunningham wrote: Keith, I haven't found anything to expect an enzyme in the Biox reaction. I think it is simply using MTBE or similar to create a single phase so the reaction takes place faster. I believe they use tetrahydrofuran, and if you want a single phase, you'll get it even WITHOUT the THF :-)-K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
There were two things that I was planning on trying, but considering the solubility info you provided I think I may try a third. The first concept I was planning on trying was a two stage process. The first stage would be weak cation ion exchange to remove any soaps followed by acid hydrolysis of the triglycerides. This would leave a FFA layer and a water/glycerol layer. The short chain FFA (c6) would wash out with the water and not waste alcohol in the second stage. After the water/glycerin is drained, the second stage would be a solid acid catalyst esterification with IPA boiling with reflux. This would release the water from the FFA so 3A molecular sieves will be used to remove water from the vapor and reflux. As the reaction progresses the water will be removed leaving behind pure IPester that won't need washing or any post treatment. The main draw back from this process would be regenerating the water from the molecular sieve which will take on around 5lb of water per 100lb of IPesters formed. On the small scale that will be produced the commercial waste oil furnace will provide the heat needed for the regeneration. The main benefits from this process will be the cloud point of the final product and useable feedstocks. This process allows use of larger alcohols that will reduce the cloud point for winter driving. Additionally, between the two stages the saturated FFA can be easily removed as they solidify at higher temperatures. Saturated FFA could also be a viable co-product. This would also allow selection of nearly pure oleic acid for the second stage which will give a BioD with a lower cloud point than winter diesel. The next benefit would be that trap grease and other very high FFA acid oils are perfect for this process. I would love to hear what you think. Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:41:38 -0600, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So how do you plan to do it? Andrew Cunningham wrote: Bob, Good thing that isn't the route I will be taking with the IPA. Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:46:40 -0600, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hello Kieth, Andy, et al, Why base catalyzed transesterifcation works well with Methanol but not so well with most other alcohol. (another little chemistry lesson). Among common alkyl alcohols such as Methanol (MeOH) Ethanol (EtOH), isopropanol (iPrOH) and higher homologs, only MeOH has a pKa lower than water. MeOH 15.5 HOH 15.7 EtOH 16.0 iPrOH 16.7 What this means is that when you mix NaOH or KOH with Methanol, equilibrium favors formation of the Methoxide ion -OMe : MeOH + KOH -- K+ + - OMe +HOH but for the others the Hydroxide ion is favored: iPrOH + KOH --- K+ + -OiPR + HOH Only when the right side of the equation is favored, is a significant concentration of the alcoxide present. It is the alcoxide which accomplishes transesterifcation. When the left side is favored, significant hydroxide is present. Hydroxide causes significant saponification.The left side of the equation is favored for all alcohols whose pKa is higher than water. There are tricks to shift the equilibrium (Le Chatelier's Principle) but it gets more difficult, expensive or both. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Andy I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) Rather thoroughly discussed here previously, a few times. I think calling it the BIOX reaction might be somethinbg of a misnomer, for one thing. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Check the links in those posts. Best wishes Keith Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
- Original Message - From: Andrew Cunningham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol I've done small scale methanol stuff, but this will be the first dealing with IPA. I read that adding a little methanol helps the glycerol drop out. You're not trying to be funny are you ? The entire premise of do it yourself biodiesel is built upon methanol/ethanol as a base for the catalyst mix, and the point is for that to replace the glycerine in the oil and hense seperation, providing I understand this right. Do you have any experience with that? There is hardly a person here who doesn't have exprerience with that process :-) maybe the question wasn't clear and I misunderstood (I hope) Luc Andy Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Luc, The question had to do with adding methanol to Isopropyl esters made from IsoPropyl Alcohol (IPA) and the tendency for glycerin to stay with the esters. Since there are article speaking of IPesters I thought there may be someone here who has produced them through whatever means (non-base catalyzed). Sorry if I was unclear. Let me know if that helps. Andy On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 07:14:00 -0500, Legal Eagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G'day Andy; - Original Message - From: Andrew Cunningham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol I've done small scale methanol stuff, but this will be the first dealing with IPA. I read that adding a little methanol helps the glycerol drop out. You're not trying to be funny are you ? The entire premise of do it yourself biodiesel is built upon methanol/ethanol as a base for the catalyst mix, and the point is for that to replace the glycerine in the oil and hense seperation, providing I understand this right. Do you have any experience with that? There is hardly a person here who doesn't have exprerience with that process :-) maybe the question wasn't clear and I misunderstood (I hope) Luc Andy Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
- Original Message - From: Andrew Cunningham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:36 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol Luc, The question had to do with adding methanol to Isopropyl esters made from IsoPropyl Alcohol (IPA) and the tendency for glycerin to stay with the esters. It had to be something like that. Out of my league, but now it is clear :-) Luc Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist +46 554 201 89 + 46 70 499 38 45 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't the Biox process conducted under extremely high temperatures and pressures? That wouldn't fall under the heading of shadetree manufacturing. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Andrew Cunningham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
on 1/14/05 6:05 AM, Andrew Cunningham at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. Are you talking about using isopropanol in a base-catalyzed transesterification? From what I know about the behavior of ethanol compared to methanol, I'd be surprised if it worked at all. I think VERY little isopropoxide would be produced, and possibly KOH wouldn't even be soluble (this would be easy to check, of course, I'm just being an armchair commentator here :-)). Even if you could get the alkoxide to form, I bet the glycerol would be too soluble to ever drop out. Have you ever actually made biodiesel this way in small quantities? -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. Are you talking about using isopropanol in a base-catalyzed transesterification? From what I know about the behavior of ethanol compared to methanol, I'd be surprised if it worked at all. I think VERY little isopropoxide would be produced, and possibly KOH wouldn't even be soluble (this would be easy to check, of course, I'm just being an armchair commentator here :-)). Even if you could get the alkoxide to form, I bet the glycerol would be too soluble to ever drop out. Have you ever actually made biodiesel this way in small quantities? -K I agree with you Ken, I don't think it works. Several people who know what they're at have told me they'd tried it without any success. AFAIK it's an enzyme-catalysed process - ie, it's lab stuff, not (yet) for the real world. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/28089/ Date: 2003-09-11 From: Keith Addison Subject: Re: R: [biofuel] Butanol v Methanol (Foglia's patent on branched alkyl esters) Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) Rather thoroughly discussed here previously, a few times. I think calling it the BIOX reaction might be somethinbg of a misnomer, for one thing. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Check the links in those posts. Best wishes Keith Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Why base catalyzed transesterifcation works well with Methanol but not so well with most other alcohol. (another little chemistry lesson). Among common alkyl alcohols such as Methanol (MeOH) Ethanol (EtOH), isopropanol (iPrOH) and higher homologs, only MeOH has a pKa lower than water. MeOH 15.5 HOH 15.7 EtOH 16.0 iPrOH 16.7 What this means is that when you mix NaOH or KOH with Methanol, equilibrium favors formation of the Methoxide ion -OMe : MeOH + KOH -- K+ + - OMe +HOH but for the others the Hydroxide ion is favored: iPrOH + KOH --- K+ + -OiPR + HOH Only when the right side of the equation is favored, is a significant concentration of the alcoxide present. It is the alcoxide which accomplishes transesterifcation. When the left side is favored, significant hydroxide is present. Hydroxide causes significant saponification.The left side of the equation is favored for all alcohols whose pKa is higher than water. There are tricks to shift the equilibrium (Le Chatelier's Principle) but it gets more difficult, expensive or both. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Andy I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) Rather thoroughly discussed here previously, a few times. I think calling it the BIOX reaction might be somethinbg of a misnomer, for one thing. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Check the links in those posts. Best wishes Keith Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Todd, According to the website it is at atmospheric and a little above ambiant temp. Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:32:23 -0500, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew, Correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't the Biox process conducted under extremely high temperatures and pressures? That wouldn't fall under the heading of shadetree manufacturing. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Andrew Cunningham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Bob, Good thing that isn't the route I will be taking with the IPA. Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:46:40 -0600, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hello Kieth, Andy, et al, Why base catalyzed transesterifcation works well with Methanol but not so well with most other alcohol. (another little chemistry lesson). Among common alkyl alcohols such as Methanol (MeOH) Ethanol (EtOH), isopropanol (iPrOH) and higher homologs, only MeOH has a pKa lower than water. MeOH 15.5 HOH 15.7 EtOH 16.0 iPrOH 16.7 What this means is that when you mix NaOH or KOH with Methanol, equilibrium favors formation of the Methoxide ion -OMe : MeOH + KOH -- K+ + - OMe +HOH but for the others the Hydroxide ion is favored: iPrOH + KOH --- K+ + -OiPR + HOH Only when the right side of the equation is favored, is a significant concentration of the alcoxide present. It is the alcoxide which accomplishes transesterifcation. When the left side is favored, significant hydroxide is present. Hydroxide causes significant saponification.The left side of the equation is favored for all alcohols whose pKa is higher than water. There are tricks to shift the equilibrium (Le Chatelier's Principle) but it gets more difficult, expensive or both. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Andy I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) Rather thoroughly discussed here previously, a few times. I think calling it the BIOX reaction might be somethinbg of a misnomer, for one thing. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Check the links in those posts. Best wishes Keith Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Ken, That sounds about right with the base. I haven't given any consideration of the separation. Are you saying that the glycerol would stay in the IPesters or the the excess IPA? Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:34:42 -0800, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 1/14/05 6:05 AM, Andrew Cunningham at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. Are you talking about using isopropanol in a base-catalyzed transesterification? From what I know about the behavior of ethanol compared to methanol, I'd be surprised if it worked at all. I think VERY little isopropoxide would be produced, and possibly KOH wouldn't even be soluble (this would be easy to check, of course, I'm just being an armchair commentator here :-)). Even if you could get the alkoxide to form, I bet the glycerol would be too soluble to ever drop out. Have you ever actually made biodiesel this way in small quantities? -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Keith, I haven't found anything to expect an enzyme in the Biox reaction. I think it is simply using MTBE or similar to create a single phase so the reaction takes place faster. I am trying to get copies of the articles from the 90's when this technique was discussed a lot more. Do you have any of the articles on using cosolvents? Andy On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 02:07:51 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 1/14/05 6:05 AM, Andrew Cunningham at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. Are you talking about using isopropanol in a base-catalyzed transesterification? From what I know about the behavior of ethanol compared to methanol, I'd be surprised if it worked at all. I think VERY little isopropoxide would be produced, and possibly KOH wouldn't even be soluble (this would be easy to check, of course, I'm just being an armchair commentator here :-)). Even if you could get the alkoxide to form, I bet the glycerol would be too soluble to ever drop out. Have you ever actually made biodiesel this way in small quantities? -K I agree with you Ken, I don't think it works. Several people who know what they're at have told me they'd tried it without any success. AFAIK it's an enzyme-catalysed process - ie, it's lab stuff, not (yet) for the real world. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/28089/ Date: 2003-09-11 From: Keith Addison Subject: Re: R: [biofuel] Butanol v Methanol (Foglia's patent on branched alkyl esters) Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Keith, Is :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) in reference to base catalyzed reactions or something else? Andy On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 02:07:51 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Andy I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) Rather thoroughly discussed here previously, a few times. I think calling it the BIOX reaction might be somethinbg of a misnomer, for one thing. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Check the links in those posts. Best wishes Keith Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
I haven't found anything to expect an enzyme in the Biox reaction. I don't think Ken or I were talking about the Biox reaction. Ken cut your para on Biox and doubts using isopropanol in a base-catalyzed reaction will work, I agreed and posted a link to information on using isopropanol with enzymes. That seems perfectly clear. I think it is simply using MTBE or similar to create a single phase so the reaction takes place faster. I am trying to get copies of the articles from the 90's when this technique was discussed a lot more. Do you have any of the articles on using cosolvents? This was covered in my other post to you, see next response. Keith Andy On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 02:07:51 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 1/14/05 6:05 AM, Andrew Cunningham at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. Are you talking about using isopropanol in a base-catalyzed transesterification? From what I know about the behavior of ethanol compared to methanol, I'd be surprised if it worked at all. I think VERY little isopropoxide would be produced, and possibly KOH wouldn't even be soluble (this would be easy to check, of course, I'm just being an armchair commentator here :-)). Even if you could get the alkoxide to form, I bet the glycerol would be too soluble to ever drop out. Have you ever actually made biodiesel this way in small quantities? -K I agree with you Ken, I don't think it works. Several people who know what they're at have told me they'd tried it without any success. AFAIK it's an enzyme-catalysed process - ie, it's lab stuff, not (yet) for the real world. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/28089/ Date: 2003-09-11 From: Keith Addison Subject: Re: R: [biofuel] Butanol v Methanol (Foglia's patent on branched alkyl esters) Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Is :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) in reference to base catalyzed reactions or something else? I'm sorry Andy, I don't see how it could refer to anything other than the Biox reaction, it's not ambiguous. If you'd checked the links I gave you you'd have found not only further confirmation of that but a lot more information, including some you just said you've been looking for. So why don't you just do that? Here they are again: See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Check the links in those posts. It's a blind alley anyway, unless you really are doing advanced stuff (more advanced than Biox). Have you made any biodiesel yet, single-stage base test batches for instance? Keith Andy On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 02:07:51 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Andy I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) Rather thoroughly discussed here previously, a few times. I think calling it the BIOX reaction might be somethinbg of a misnomer, for one thing. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Check the links in those posts. Best wishes Keith Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
one phase without any separation. Andrew Cunningham wrote: Ken, That sounds about right with the base. I haven't given any consideration of the separation. Are you saying that the glycerol would stay in the IPesters or the the excess IPA? Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:34:42 -0800, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 1/14/05 6:05 AM, Andrew Cunningham at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. Are you talking about using isopropanol in a base-catalyzed transesterification? From what I know about the behavior of ethanol compared to methanol, I'd be surprised if it worked at all. I think VERY little isopropoxide would be produced, and possibly KOH wouldn't even be soluble (this would be easy to check, of course, I'm just being an armchair commentator here :-)). Even if you could get the alkoxide to form, I bet the glycerol would be too soluble to ever drop out. Have you ever actually made biodiesel this way in small quantities? -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Andrew Cunningham wrote: Bob, Good thing that isn't the route I will be taking with the IPA. Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:46:40 -0600, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hello Kieth, Andy, et al, Why base catalyzed transesterifcation works well with Methanol but not so well with most other alcohol. (another little chemistry lesson). Among common alkyl alcohols such as Methanol (MeOH) Ethanol (EtOH), isopropanol (iPrOH) and higher homologs, only MeOH has a pKa lower than water. MeOH 15.5 HOH 15.7 EtOH 16.0 iPrOH 16.7 What this means is that when you mix NaOH or KOH with Methanol, equilibrium favors formation of the Methoxide ion -OMe : MeOH + KOH -- K+ + - OMe +HOH but for the others the Hydroxide ion is favored: iPrOH + KOH --- K+ + -OiPR + HOH Only when the right side of the equation is favored, is a significant concentration of the alcoxide present. It is the alcoxide which accomplishes transesterifcation. When the left side is favored, significant hydroxide is present. Hydroxide causes significant saponification.The left side of the equation is favored for all alcohols whose pKa is higher than water. There are tricks to shift the equilibrium (Le Chatelier's Principle) but it gets more difficult, expensive or both. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Andy I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) Rather thoroughly discussed here previously, a few times. I think calling it the BIOX reaction might be somethinbg of a misnomer, for one thing. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Check the links in those posts. Best wishes Keith Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
On Jan 14, 2005, at 10:34 AM, Andrew Cunningham wrote: Ken, That sounds about right with the base. I haven't given any consideration of the separation. Are you saying that the glycerol would stay in the IPesters or the the excess IPA? Andy They all stay together in one phase. Once the glycerol starts to drop out (if ever), it takes most of the IPA with it. The remaining IPA in the ester phase can be washed out after. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
On Jan 14, 2005, at 10:40 AM, Andrew Cunningham wrote: Keith, I haven't found anything to expect an enzyme in the Biox reaction. I think it is simply using MTBE or similar to create a single phase so the reaction takes place faster. I believe they use tetrahydrofuran, and if you want a single phase, you'll get it even WITHOUT the THF :-)-K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
