Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid
Thanks for your responses. I'm going to meet the vendor, see an installation, and ask him a few questions. Will report back. Best James - Original Message - From: Jon Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid Their science lesson throws a lot of suspicion on the whole process. For instance, they somehow make the claim that hydrogen atoms can exist independently (they bond together in pairs...) and that you are *BURNING* hydrogen and oxygen in your engine (my emphasis). Additionally the idea that carbon vaporizes at 3000 C is bunk; quick reference checks indicate that its boiling point is 500 degrees above that. Oh, and they claim that the water is supposed to cool your engine and prolong its life. Seems unlikely at best, if they're trying to vaporize carbon. Oh, and the melting points of aluminum and iron, the principal materials that engine blocks are made of, are on the scale of 1000 C. So, either they're making your engine slowly melt down and lying to you about it, or lying to you about the true effects of their apparatus. I'll go ahead and agree with just about all the concerns Darryl had... particularly the cost of water. Tap water will leave mineral deposits that will slowly but surely clog your system, so either you must buy distilled water or produce your own. I'll also offer a competitively priced (bidding starts at 2/3rds of whatever they're charging) consultation for improving your fuel mileage. Of course, I'll just be reading you what's in the econogics link and then sending along a fuel economy good luck charm to hang on your rear-view mirror... all best, Jon --- On Mon, 3/9/09, Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 12:51 PM James, there could be a germ of validity in this. I had a quick look at the site, and this is not one of the dozens of sites that talks about water as a sole fuel for an internal combustion engine. (That concept is bunk in my opinion.) The concept here is that you use surplus energy from the electrical system to electrolyse distilled water into hydrogen and oxygen and then eject the generated hydrogen into the combustion process. A bit of an in-situ fuel upgrader. I am aware of a company that was installing such units on large trucks and had testimonials from fleet operators with what appeared to be objective data to support their claims. (Today, their Web site does not appear to be working - www.chechfi.ca. Perhaps they have succumbed to low oil prices.) However, there are some caveats. It has to be done right to get beneficial results, and that's non-trivial. You have to use distilled water. In some places, that's more expensive than gasoline / petrol. The water has to be kept from freezing, or the system is non-functional. The gains are variable, and dependent on the engine and fuel being used. You need to travel a lot of kilometres / miles to recoup your investment, and that will vary based on the price of the fuel being displaced. The company I referenced above focused on long-haul trucks because that's the niche where the investment made sense - when gasoline was over Cdn$1/litre. This will not get you off the primary fuel - it only promises to reduce the amount of that fuel being used. IIRC, the CHECHFI were reporting gains of 10-15% in fuel economy. I am not a fan of anecdotal reports, especially only after a short time of operation in the modified mode and no evidence of detailed records of pre-conversion data. I am a believer in A-B-A testing - that is, detailed records before the modification, after the modification, and again after the modification has been removed / deactivated. (BTW, I have offered to do such testing on my own vehicles for several firms offering magic magnets that were supposed to improve fuel economy, but none have taken me up on it.) BTW, most drivers can achieve better gains than that simply by changing their driver behaviour a bit and doing some common sense things around their vehicle maintenance regime. Have a look at my Saving Fuel page for tips. http://www.econogics.com/en/savefuel.htm In short, my advice is to be highly skeptical about such devices, do your homework including a realistic cost-benefit analysis (and considering how long you expect to be using this vehicle), check references, and get a written guarantee regarding fuel savings to be obtained. Do all the other fuel saving things on my fuel savings page that seem appropriate first. Once that has been done, use your documented fuel usage data as the baseline for discussions with this firm and the guarantee on fuel savings to be had. I strongly recommend use of fuel usage logs and even better, fuel consumption computers. I had one in a car we used about 15 years
Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid
Met the guy. The kit looks credible. He says he isn't qualified to answer questions on chemistry, but he requests that I forward your mails to him and he will pass them onto the parent (US) company for comments. I plan send the messages tomorrow, (no names) so if anyone would prefer me not to send their comments, please post to that effect. Thanks James - Original Message - From: James Machin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 1:52 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid Thanks for your responses. I'm going to meet the vendor, see an installation, and ask him a few questions. Will report back. Best James - Original Message - From: Jon Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid Their science lesson throws a lot of suspicion on the whole process. For instance, they somehow make the claim that hydrogen atoms can exist independently (they bond together in pairs...) and that you are *BURNING* hydrogen and oxygen in your engine (my emphasis). Additionally the idea that carbon vaporizes at 3000 C is bunk; quick reference checks indicate that its boiling point is 500 degrees above that. Oh, and they claim that the water is supposed to cool your engine and prolong its life. Seems unlikely at best, if they're trying to vaporize carbon. Oh, and the melting points of aluminum and iron, the principal materials that engine blocks are made of, are on the scale of 1000 C. So, either they're making your engine slowly melt down and lying to you about it, or lying to you about the true effects of their apparatus. I'll go ahead and agree with just about all the concerns Darryl had... particularly the cost of water. Tap water will leave mineral deposits that will slowly but surely clog your system, so either you must buy distilled water or produce your own. I'll also offer a competitively priced (bidding starts at 2/3rds of whatever they're charging) consultation for improving your fuel mileage. Of course, I'll just be reading you what's in the econogics link and then sending along a fuel economy good luck charm to hang on your rear-view mirror... all best, Jon --- On Mon, 3/9/09, Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 12:51 PM James, there could be a germ of validity in this. I had a quick look at the site, and this is not one of the dozens of sites that talks about water as a sole fuel for an internal combustion engine. (That concept is bunk in my opinion.) The concept here is that you use surplus energy from the electrical system to electrolyse distilled water into hydrogen and oxygen and then eject the generated hydrogen into the combustion process. A bit of an in-situ fuel upgrader. I am aware of a company that was installing such units on large trucks and had testimonials from fleet operators with what appeared to be objective data to support their claims. (Today, their Web site does not appear to be working - www.chechfi.ca. Perhaps they have succumbed to low oil prices.) However, there are some caveats. It has to be done right to get beneficial results, and that's non-trivial. You have to use distilled water. In some places, that's more expensive than gasoline / petrol. The water has to be kept from freezing, or the system is non-functional. The gains are variable, and dependent on the engine and fuel being used. You need to travel a lot of kilometres / miles to recoup your investment, and that will vary based on the price of the fuel being displaced. The company I referenced above focused on long-haul trucks because that's the niche where the investment made sense - when gasoline was over Cdn$1/litre. This will not get you off the primary fuel - it only promises to reduce the amount of that fuel being used. IIRC, the CHECHFI were reporting gains of 10-15% in fuel economy. I am not a fan of anecdotal reports, especially only after a short time of operation in the modified mode and no evidence of detailed records of pre-conversion data. I am a believer in A-B-A testing - that is, detailed records before the modification, after the modification, and again after the modification has been removed / deactivated. (BTW, I have offered to do such testing on my own vehicles for several firms offering magic magnets that were supposed to improve fuel economy, but none have taken me up on it.) BTW, most drivers can achieve better gains than that simply by changing their driver behaviour a bit and doing some common sense things around their vehicle maintenance regime. Have a look at my Saving Fuel page for tips. http://www.econogics.com/en/savefuel.htm In short, my advice
Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid
Hi Jon I can't find text on the site relating to your comment... Additionally the idea that carbon vaporizes at 3000 C is bunk; quick reference checks indicate that its boiling point is 500 degrees above that. Can you direct me please? James - Original Message - From: Jon Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid Their science lesson throws a lot of suspicion on the whole process. For instance, they somehow make the claim that hydrogen atoms can exist independently (they bond together in pairs...) and that you are *BURNING* hydrogen and oxygen in your engine (my emphasis). Additionally the idea that carbon vaporizes at 3000 C is bunk; quick reference checks indicate that its boiling point is 500 degrees above that. Oh, and they claim that the water is supposed to cool your engine and prolong its life. Seems unlikely at best, if they're trying to vaporize carbon. Oh, and the melting points of aluminum and iron, the principal materials that engine blocks are made of, are on the scale of 1000 C. So, either they're making your engine slowly melt down and lying to you about it, or lying to you about the true effects of their apparatus. I'll go ahead and agree with just about all the concerns Darryl had... particularly the cost of water. Tap water will leave mineral deposits that will slowly but surely clog your system, so either you must buy distilled water or produce your own. I'll also offer a competitively priced (bidding starts at 2/3rds of whatever they're charging) consultation for improving your fuel mileage. Of course, I'll just be reading you what's in the econogics link and then sending along a fuel economy good luck charm to hang on your rear-view mirror... all best, Jon --- On Mon, 3/9/09, Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 12:51 PM James, there could be a germ of validity in this. I had a quick look at the site, and this is not one of the dozens of sites that talks about water as a sole fuel for an internal combustion engine. (That concept is bunk in my opinion.) The concept here is that you use surplus energy from the electrical system to electrolyse distilled water into hydrogen and oxygen and then eject the generated hydrogen into the combustion process. A bit of an in-situ fuel upgrader. I am aware of a company that was installing such units on large trucks and had testimonials from fleet operators with what appeared to be objective data to support their claims. (Today, their Web site does not appear to be working - www.chechfi.ca. Perhaps they have succumbed to low oil prices.) However, there are some caveats. It has to be done right to get beneficial results, and that's non-trivial. You have to use distilled water. In some places, that's more expensive than gasoline / petrol. The water has to be kept from freezing, or the system is non-functional. The gains are variable, and dependent on the engine and fuel being used. You need to travel a lot of kilometres / miles to recoup your investment, and that will vary based on the price of the fuel being displaced. The company I referenced above focused on long-haul trucks because that's the niche where the investment made sense - when gasoline was over Cdn$1/litre. This will not get you off the primary fuel - it only promises to reduce the amount of that fuel being used. IIRC, the CHECHFI were reporting gains of 10-15% in fuel economy. I am not a fan of anecdotal reports, especially only after a short time of operation in the modified mode and no evidence of detailed records of pre-conversion data. I am a believer in A-B-A testing - that is, detailed records before the modification, after the modification, and again after the modification has been removed / deactivated. (BTW, I have offered to do such testing on my own vehicles for several firms offering magic magnets that were supposed to improve fuel economy, but none have taken me up on it.) BTW, most drivers can achieve better gains than that simply by changing their driver behaviour a bit and doing some common sense things around their vehicle maintenance regime. Have a look at my Saving Fuel page for tips. http://www.econogics.com/en/savefuel.htm In short, my advice is to be highly skeptical about such devices, do your homework including a realistic cost-benefit analysis (and considering how long you expect to be using this vehicle), check references, and get a written guarantee regarding fuel savings to be obtained. Do all the other fuel saving things on my fuel savings page that seem appropriate first. Once that has been done, use your documented fuel usage data as the baseline for discussions with this firm and the guarantee on fuel savings to be had. I strongly recommend
[Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid
Hi folks There's a man offering to fit the water fuel conversion here. Does anyone have any experience of this kit? (Doesn't seem to be anything in the archives) Here's the product.. http://www.water-fuel-hybrid.com/ Best James ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid
No actual experience, I'm afraid, but this does bear a certain resemblance to myriad other schemes and therefore puts me in mind of snake-oil. One of the photos shows a pair of billet-aluminium-looking canisters. I suspect that that is where the snakes are kept. I'm no chemist, but the chemistry lecture doesn't quite ring true even so, and the attribution of engine wear etc. to the presence of carbon in the fuel is just plain false. It seems to exploit the recently-amplified popular view of carbon as a sort of sticky black grime, on which much of the modern craze for molecule-counting (giving us your money will save x tonnes of virulent treacle) depends, together with vintage-era images of decoking a cylinder head with a hammer and chisel. I would therefore incline not to take this thing seriously. Best regards Dawie Coetzee From: James Machin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, 9 March, 2009 15:31:23 Subject: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid Hi folks There's a man offering to fit the water fuel conversion here. Does anyone have any experience of this kit? (Doesn't seem to be anything in the archives) Here's the product.. http://www.water-fuel-hybrid.com/ Best James ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090309/6d064b1e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid
James, there could be a germ of validity in this. I had a quick look at the site, and this is not one of the dozens of sites that talks about water as a sole fuel for an internal combustion engine. (That concept is bunk in my opinion.) The concept here is that you use surplus energy from the electrical system to electrolyse distilled water into hydrogen and oxygen and then eject the generated hydrogen into the combustion process. A bit of an in-situ fuel upgrader. I am aware of a company that was installing such units on large trucks and had testimonials from fleet operators with what appeared to be objective data to support their claims. (Today, their Web site does not appear to be working - www.chechfi.ca. Perhaps they have succumbed to low oil prices.) However, there are some caveats. It has to be done right to get beneficial results, and that's non-trivial. You have to use distilled water. In some places, that's more expensive than gasoline / petrol. The water has to be kept from freezing, or the system is non-functional. The gains are variable, and dependent on the engine and fuel being used. You need to travel a lot of kilometres / miles to recoup your investment, and that will vary based on the price of the fuel being displaced. The company I referenced above focused on long-haul trucks because that's the niche where the investment made sense - when gasoline was over Cdn$1/litre. This will not get you off the primary fuel - it only promises to reduce the amount of that fuel being used. IIRC, the CHECHFI were reporting gains of 10-15% in fuel economy. I am not a fan of anecdotal reports, especially only after a short time of operation in the modified mode and no evidence of detailed records of pre-conversion data. I am a believer in A-B-A testing - that is, detailed records before the modification, after the modification, and again after the modification has been removed / deactivated. (BTW, I have offered to do such testing on my own vehicles for several firms offering magic magnets that were supposed to improve fuel economy, but none have taken me up on it.) BTW, most drivers can achieve better gains than that simply by changing their driver behaviour a bit and doing some common sense things around their vehicle maintenance regime. Have a look at my Saving Fuel page for tips. http://www.econogics.com/en/savefuel.htm In short, my advice is to be highly skeptical about such devices, do your homework including a realistic cost-benefit analysis (and considering how long you expect to be using this vehicle), check references, and get a written guarantee regarding fuel savings to be obtained. Do all the other fuel saving things on my fuel savings page that seem appropriate first. Once that has been done, use your documented fuel usage data as the baseline for discussions with this firm and the guarantee on fuel savings to be had. I strongly recommend use of fuel usage logs and even better, fuel consumption computers. I had one in a car we used about 15 years ago, and it revealed some fascinating things about relative fuel consumption across different drivers in the same vehicle. With oil prices at US$40 a barrel or thereabouts, I can't imagine that this set-up would be cost-effective for a typical private car. Darryl McMahon Author, The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy James Machin wrote: Hi folks There's a man offering to fit the water fuel conversion here. Does anyone have any experience of this kit? (Doesn't seem to be anything in the archives) Here's the product.. http://www.water-fuel-hybrid.com/ Best James -- Darryl McMahon The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (in trade paperback and eBook) http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/ Latest review of The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy in Greenlife Magazine http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/tenheGLspring2009.htm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid
Their science lesson throws a lot of suspicion on the whole process. For instance, they somehow make the claim that hydrogen atoms can exist independently (they bond together in pairs...) and that you are *BURNING* hydrogen and oxygen in your engine (my emphasis). Additionally the idea that carbon vaporizes at 3000 C is bunk; quick reference checks indicate that its boiling point is 500 degrees above that. Oh, and they claim that the water is supposed to cool your engine and prolong its life. Seems unlikely at best, if they're trying to vaporize carbon. Oh, and the melting points of aluminum and iron, the principal materials that engine blocks are made of, are on the scale of 1000 C. So, either they're making your engine slowly melt down and lying to you about it, or lying to you about the true effects of their apparatus. I'll go ahead and agree with just about all the concerns Darryl had... particularly the cost of water. Tap water will leave mineral deposits that will slowly but surely clog your system, so either you must buy distilled water or produce your own. I'll also offer a competitively priced (bidding starts at 2/3rds of whatever they're charging) consultation for improving your fuel mileage. Of course, I'll just be reading you what's in the econogics link and then sending along a fuel economy good luck charm to hang on your rear-view mirror... all best, Jon --- On Mon, 3/9/09, Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 12:51 PM James, there could be a germ of validity in this. I had a quick look at the site, and this is not one of the dozens of sites that talks about water as a sole fuel for an internal combustion engine. (That concept is bunk in my opinion.) The concept here is that you use surplus energy from the electrical system to electrolyse distilled water into hydrogen and oxygen and then eject the generated hydrogen into the combustion process. A bit of an in-situ fuel upgrader. I am aware of a company that was installing such units on large trucks and had testimonials from fleet operators with what appeared to be objective data to support their claims. (Today, their Web site does not appear to be working - www.chechfi.ca. Perhaps they have succumbed to low oil prices.) However, there are some caveats. It has to be done right to get beneficial results, and that's non-trivial. You have to use distilled water. In some places, that's more expensive than gasoline / petrol. The water has to be kept from freezing, or the system is non-functional. The gains are variable, and dependent on the engine and fuel being used. You need to travel a lot of kilometres / miles to recoup your investment, and that will vary based on the price of the fuel being displaced. The company I referenced above focused on long-haul trucks because that's the niche where the investment made sense - when gasoline was over Cdn$1/litre. This will not get you off the primary fuel - it only promises to reduce the amount of that fuel being used. IIRC, the CHECHFI were reporting gains of 10-15% in fuel economy. I am not a fan of anecdotal reports, especially only after a short time of operation in the modified mode and no evidence of detailed records of pre-conversion data. I am a believer in A-B-A testing - that is, detailed records before the modification, after the modification, and again after the modification has been removed / deactivated. (BTW, I have offered to do such testing on my own vehicles for several firms offering magic magnets that were supposed to improve fuel economy, but none have taken me up on it.) BTW, most drivers can achieve better gains than that simply by changing their driver behaviour a bit and doing some common sense things around their vehicle maintenance regime. Have a look at my Saving Fuel page for tips. http://www.econogics.com/en/savefuel.htm In short, my advice is to be highly skeptical about such devices, do your homework including a realistic cost-benefit analysis (and considering how long you expect to be using this vehicle), check references, and get a written guarantee regarding fuel savings to be obtained. Do all the other fuel saving things on my fuel savings page that seem appropriate first. Once that has been done, use your documented fuel usage data as the baseline for discussions with this firm and the guarantee on fuel savings to be had. I strongly recommend use of fuel usage logs and even better, fuel consumption computers. I had one in a car we used about 15 years ago, and it revealed some fascinating things about relative fuel consumption across different drivers in the same vehicle. With oil prices at US$40 a barrel or thereabouts, I can't imagine that this set-up would be cost-effective for a typical private car. Darryl
