Re: [Biofuel] Water heater
What's usually wrong with them? AntiFossil wrote: Marty, and all, I have to respectfully disagree with Bob C. on this one. The days of freebies are still very much alive! It might just be an issue of where you seek your freebies : ) Since approx. March of this year, I have been able to get 18 used water heaters. My only cost has been the time, and expense it takes to go and pick them up from 3 different plumbing/hardware shops in my local area. Had I wanted them, I would estimate that I could have had at least twice that many, although I would probably be divorced and living out of them right now had I accepted them all. There's really no secret to getting as many as you need. For most folks, I would think that one or two tanks would fine, but that would depend on your intentions. Find a local plumbing shop, or Hardware store (not a huge retail chain) that sells and installs what they sell and ask them what they do with the old water heaters that they remove during their installs. In my part of the world, two of the contractors bring the old water heaters back to their shops and dump them out back. Then, when this particular area get's full enough they call the scrap man and he comes and hauls them all away to the scrap metal yard for, as Bob C. noted, a fee. If you are willing to go and pick up a few of them for no fee, that's usually great news to these pro's! Good luck hunting water heaters! On 8/30/05, *Marty Phee* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the info. My friend and I are going to do this. I'd like to start with a proven design and go from there and he has grand plans of how to do everything. I really don't have room to do it and he does so I need to give him leeway in the design. Bob Clark wrote: Marty Phee [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will a water heater ware out/rust out? Say if you start from a new heater. How long can you expect it to last? Marty, and all I am currently using six water heaters that have been in service for a little over five years. (One has actually been operating as a waste oil burner since 1996) and to date I have seen no sign of rust through and/or burn out. I have several more used water heaters that I am in the midst of converting for one project or another. ALL of the ones I am using were used to start with. One had a small leak in the seam when I originally obtained it, but I am lucky enough to have a complete steel fabrication shop here so repairing that wasn't too difficult. I have two electric tanks that I left the heating elements in to use as pre-heaters. Others are my first 'still' experiments and are fired with a modified propane burner, now running on methane gas. Those two would be the ones that I suspect will burn out first (the bottom area) so I keep a closer eye on them, but so far no sign of trouble. In our area the local trash companies collect used appliances (including water heaters) from off the side of the road once each quarter (every three months) so I always keep an eye out the weekend before the collection date and pickup all the water heaters I see. BUT, I have never used a new one for anything so can only guess about that, but my thought would be this: each of the heater tanks I am using now had been used for water heating for years before I got ahold of them. I KNOW they have lasted from five years to nine years (and still counting) so I would think it would be safe to say a new water heater tank should easily give you ten years of service, if you buy a quality one to start with. But a suggestion; if this will be your first 'project' using a water heater tank, why not see if you can find one at a local salvage yard or dump. The days of 'freebies from those kind of places are over (at least everyplace I know of) but the 'scrapper' is only going to get five dollars tops for the old heater, so they'd surely sell you one for ten bucks??? That would be a much smaller investment then a new water heater. However, if you have some experience with your project already and want to make sure you start with a good tank, maybe new would be the way to go? I guess only you can make that choice, but based on my own personal uses, a used tank will give you a good deal of service and provides a very inexpensive way to 'experiment'. BTW, I have built several other cookers and stills since those first ones and in some projects I have use one inch steel plate (for fireboxes and support walls of a digester) and a couple of heavy gauge stainless steel tanks, but the old water heaters are still used regularly and are going fine. To be fair, the two
Re: [Biofuel] Water heater
Greetings, One can get just about anything for free, if you ask nicely. I have 3000 square feet of tile that was mine for hauling it home. Most of my walls and shelving units are made from scrounged wood, mine for the hauling. In Huntsville Texas, there is a man that started a company building homes with the stuff regular contractors throw out. Last I heard, he was up to about 10 houses a year. It is truly wonderful what happens when you think outside the box. Bright Blessings, Kim At 10:16 PM 8/30/2005, you wrote: Marty, and all, I have to respectfully disagree with Bob C. on this one. The days of freebies are still very much alive! It might just be an issue of where you seek your freebies : ) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water heater
Hi all, I guess I should have worded my message a little better!!! The days of freebies in our area, AND WHEN IT COMES TO ANYTHING STEEL, are over. I'm sure some people are still lucky enough to live in areas that you might be able to get a free used hot water heater from a junkyard or dump, but around here, anything with a steel content is quickly grabbed up by the many, many scrapyards and independent scrappers. As for the dumps, you practically need a letter from the govenor to remove anything, and then there is a price attached. So, I guess it's all about where you live anymore. As soon as I throw all freebies together, I know I'm wrong because I get a lot of freebies here too, just not steel. There are many other things for the taking (and even a few they'll pay you to haul off) and if you're looking for antique furniture, well most people around here discard it with their other trash on collection days. I guess the point I was trying to make is that someone who wanted to build their first project with a water heater tank should not have to pay any more then ten dollars AT THE VERY MOST because they only have a scrap value of slightly less then five dollars. And I'm sure there are a lot of states, (Arkansas for example where many of my in-laws live) where you can still scrounge things at dumps for free (and also unsupervised). So yes, it is an issue combined of what freebies you are seeking and where you live. To state it correctly, in the area of Pittsburg, PA going northwest to Cleveland, OH, there is such an emphasis on gathering and selling any steel scrap that you are quite unlikely to get any freebie water heaters or other steel containers from a junkyard or dump. On the other hand, there are dozens of places to get plastic barrels and drums -- FOR FREE. So sorry if I misspoke and/or upset anyone, but I think you just overlooked the point I was making for a specific item. And (please note the HUMOR here), if anything can be had for free, would someone PLEASE like to donate me a 400HP diesel engine, complete with radiator, etc. :-) That would save me a lot of money on my project in progress :-) Thanks, Bob C. -Original Message- From: Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Aug 31, 2005 9:08 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water heater Greetings, One can get just about anything for free, if you ask nicely. I have 3000 square feet of tile that was mine for hauling it home. Most of my walls and shelving units are made from scrounged wood, mine for the hauling. In Huntsville Texas, there is a man that started a company building homes with the stuff regular contractors throw out. Last I heard, he was up to about 10 houses a year. It is truly wonderful what happens when you think outside the box. Bright Blessings, Kim At 10:16 PM 8/30/2005, you wrote: Marty, and all, I have to respectfully disagree with Bob C. on this one. The days of freebies are still very much alive! It might just be an issue of where you seek your freebies : ) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water heater
This sounds too cool. Are you saying you are using old NG Electric water heaters for... what? Stills? Oil fired boilers? Bio-Diesel batch heaters? I love this group! I need pictures, plans schematics. Pretty please! Oh I can't wait. I think I will go down to the dump and grab one or two and see if I can convert one for a radiant floor hot water heater. My son was just telling me the other day that his lady's dad had 55 gallons of used motor oil he wanted to sell or do something with, I cheerfully chirped in, Why not burn it in a boiler. I had no idea what I was saying, of course. But it sounded smart, I liked that. Now here I see that I can do it too. I assume you burn the waste from the Bio-Diesel refining. This sounds better every day I am here. Thank you all Brian Rodgers ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water heater
Hi Mike (ANTIFOSSIL) and all, I hadn't read your entire message when I posted my last comments, only the part which was included in the next message. The fact is, that when I lived in Oregon I could have collected enough free used water heaters to start my own scrapyard. Now, living in the middle of what once was the US's largest steel producing region, there is a lot more emphasis on scrap metal collection. I not only tried hardware stores, I happen to be on a team with the owner of a plumbing supply. I started asking him six years ago about his used water heaters and he guards them like they were gold! All the ones that come back from replacements are put in a fencedyard and 'inventoried' just like the new one's and they all are put on a Bill of Lading when they go to the scrap yard. In fact, I could go to the scrap yard and buy one for less then he was willing to sell for!! Just for the sake of accuracy, I called a local scrapmetal dealer TODAY to see what the going price is. For water heaters and other 'similar' items (I guess cook stoves, etc.) they are paying $130 per ton, unprocessed. If you disassemble the heaters and separate the valves, sheet metal, etc. they pay only $110 per ton for the sheeting, but anywhere from $160 to $195 per ton for the various metals the plumbing and valves are made from. I guess that's why only individual homeowners put out used water heaters for free -- and then you have to beat the scappers to them!! Once again, never meant to cause anyone any headaches, but just telling it the way it is where I live. So, I guess it truly does make a difference where you live?? Take Care, Bob C. -Original Message- From: AntiFossil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Aug 30, 2005 11:16 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water heater Marty, and all,I have to respectfully disagree with Bob C. on this one. The days of freebies are still very much alive! It might just be an issue of where you seek your freebies : )Since approx. March of this year, I have been able to get 18 used water heaters. My only cost has been the time, and expense it takes to go and pick them up from 3 different plumbing/hardware shops in my local area. Had I wanted them, I would estimate that I could have had at least twice that many, although I would probably be divorced and living out of them right now had I accepted them all. There's really no secret to getting as many as you need. For most folks, I would think that one or two tanks would fine, but that would depend on your intentions. Find a local plumbing shop, or Hardware store (not a huge retail chain) that sells and installs what they sell and ask them what they do with the old water heaters that they remove during their installs. In my part of the world, two of the contractors bring the old water heaters back to their shops and dump them out back. Then, when this particular area get's "full enough" they call the scrap man and he comes and hauls them all away to the scrap metal yard for, as Bob C. noted, a fee. If you are willing to go and pick up a few of them for no fee, that's usually great news to these pro's! Good luck hunting water heaters! On 8/30/05, Marty Phee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the info.My friend and I are going to do this.I'd like tostart with a proven design and go from there and he has grand plans ofhow to do everything.I really don't have room to do it and he does so I need to give him leeway in the design.Bob Clark wrote: Marty Phee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Will a water heater ware out/rust out?Say if you start from a new heater.How long can you expect it to last?Marty, and allI am currently using six water heaters that have been "in service" for a little over five years. (One has actually been operating as a waste oil burner since 1996) and to date I have seen no sign of rust through and/or burn out. I have several more used water heaters that I am in the midst of converting for one project or another. ALL of the ones I am using were used to start with. One had a small leak in the seam when I originally obtained it, but I am lucky enough to have a complete steel fabrication shop here so repairing that wasn't too difficult. I have two electric tanks that I left the heating elements in to use as pre-heaters. Others are my first 'still' experiments and are fired with a modified propane burner, now running on methane gas. Those two would be the ones that I suspect will burn out first (the bottom area) so I keep a closer eye on them, but so far no sign of trouble.In our area the local trash companies collect used appliances (including water heaters) from off the side of the road once each quarter (every three months) so I always keep an eye out the weekend before the collection date and pickup all the water heaters I see. BUT, I have never used a new one for anything so can only guess about that, but my thought would be this: each of the heater tanks I am using now had b
Re: [Biofuel] Water heater
Hello Brian Quite a lot of people use water heaters to make these waste oil heaters that Bob just mentioned: Hope that helps a little, and I'm sure there are others on this list with a lot more experience using water heaters then I. I got my original ideas and plans from a Mother Earth News magazine from 1980, so there are a lot of people that have been doing this much longer then I have. My 'experience' only started in 1996. GOOD LUCK and happy fueling. That's here, and has been for five years: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me4.html Mother Earth: Waste Oil Heater Very popular page. It's a whole 9-page section, there's more there than just the old waste oil heater: MOTHER's Waste Oil Heater Instructions in a nutshell -- with photographs Feedback Journey to Forever's Waste Oil Heater Modifications: Bruce Woodford's forced-air waste oil heater Journey to Forever's forced-air biofuel heater Marty's forced-air waste oil heater A lot of people also use water heaters as biodiesel reactors, and here's the original one, by list member Dale (who never gets credited with all the copies, seems to me): The touchless processor http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#touchfree Take care of the other designs bandied about, they don't all do what they're supposed to do. And consider whether you'd prefer a sealed processor (water heaters) or a closed one with a lid you can take off so you can get at the inside if you have to. Lots of those here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html Test-batch mini-processor Simple 5-gallon processor Journey to Forever 90-litre processor The 'Deepthort 100B' Batch Reactor Ian's vacuum biodiesel processor Chuck Ranum's biodiesel processor Micro-Production System for Biodiesel 833 Gallon Per Day Batch Plant K.I.S.S. processor Pelly Model A processor Foolproof method processors The touchless processor Continuous reactors How to make a cone-bottomed processor Best wishes Keith This sounds too cool. Are you saying you are using old NG Electric water heaters for... what? Stills? Oil fired boilers? Bio-Diesel batch heaters? I love this group! I need pictures, plans schematics. Pretty please! Oh I can't wait. I think I will go down to the dump and grab one or two and see if I can convert one for a radiant floor hot water heater. My son was just telling me the other day that his lady's dad had 55 gallons of used motor oil he wanted to sell or do something with, I cheerfully chirped in, Why not burn it in a boiler. I had no idea what I was saying, of course. But it sounded smart, I liked that. Now here I see that I can do it too. I assume you burn the waste from the Bio-Diesel refining. This sounds better every day I am here. Thank you all Brian Rodgers ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water heater
Thank you Keith I will start reading right now. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me4.html Amazing to say the least. I love to see that waste oil burning space heater glowing. Boy howdy! Our situation is a bit different in that we need to burn waste wood products. It is very interesting to me to see what people are doing with old electric hot water heaters. My goal at this point will be to find a way to use an old gas hot water heater and wood as the energy source and pump the warmed water through an existing radiant floor system. I have been warned about the use of steam. I figure that my system will be so inefficient that over-heating won't be a problem. The general info about the heavy gauge steel in water heater tanks is enough to fuel my imagination. Thanks again Brian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water heater
Marty Phee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will a water heater ware out/rust out? Say if you start from a new heater. How long can you expect it to last? Marty, and all I am currently using six water heaters that have been in service for a little over five years. (One has actually been operating as a waste oil burner since 1996) and to date I have seen no sign of rust through and/or burn out. I have several more used water heaters that I am in the midst of converting for one project or another. ALL of the ones I am using were used to start with. One had a small leak in the seam when I originally obtained it, but I am lucky enough to have a complete steel fabrication shop here so repairing that wasn't too difficult. I have two electric tanks that I left the heating elements in to use as pre-heaters. Others are my first 'still' experiments and are fired with a modified propane burner, now running on methane gas. Those two would be the ones that I suspect will burn out first (the bottom area) so I keep a closer eye on them, but so far no sign of trouble. In our area the local trash companies collect used appliances (including water heaters) from off the side of the road once each quarter (every three months) so I always keep an eye out the weekend before the collection date and pickup all the water heaters I see. BUT, I have never used a new one for anything so can only guess about that, but my thought would be this: each of the heater tanks I am using now had been used for water heating for years before I got ahold of them. I KNOW they have lasted from five years to nine years (and still counting) so I would think it would be safe to say a new water heater tank should easily give you ten years of service, if you buy a quality one to start with. But a suggestion; if this will be your first 'project' using a water heater tank, why not see if you can find one at a local salvage yard or dump. The days of 'freebies from those kind of places are over (at least everyplace I know of) but the 'scrapper' is only going to get five dollars tops for the old heater, so they'd surely sell you one for ten bucks??? That would be a much smaller investment then a new water heater. However, if you have some experience with your project already and want to make sure you start with a good tank, maybe new would be the way to go? I guess only you can make that choice, but based on my own personal uses, a used tank will give you a good deal of service and provides a very inexpensive way to 'experiment'. BTW, I have built several other cookers and stills since those first ones and in some projects I have use one inch steel plate (for fireboxes and support walls of a digester) and a couple of heavy gauge stainless steel tanks, but the old water heaters are still used regularly and are going fine. To be fair, the two waste-oil burners I built (one sixty gallons and one eighty gallons) are only used regularly about four months each year and then sporadically through the rest of the year. But on the other hand, they also take the most abuse and extreme heat conditions. Hope that helps a little, and I'm sure there are others on this list with a lot more experience using water heaters then I. I got my original ideas and plans from a Mother Earth News magazine from 1980, so there are a lot of people that have been doing this much longer then I have. My 'experience' only started in 1996. GOOD LUCK and happy fueling. Bob C. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water heater
5-15 years, then they start leaking. Bob Clark wrote: Marty Phee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will a water heater ware out/rust out? Say if you start from a new heater. How long can you expect it to last? Marty, and all I am currently using six water heaters that have been in service for a little over five years. (One has actually been operating as a waste oil burner since 1996) and to date I have seen no sign of rust through and/or burn out. I have several more used water heaters that I am in the midst of converting for one project or another. ALL of the ones I am using were used to start with. One had a small leak in the seam when I originally obtained it, but I am lucky enough to have a complete steel fabrication shop here so repairing that wasn't too difficult. I have two electric tanks that I left the heating elements in to use as pre-heaters. Others are my first 'still' experiments and are fired with a modified propane burner, now running on methane gas. Those two would be the ones that I suspect will burn out first (the bottom area) so I keep a closer eye on them, but so far no sign of trouble. In our area the local trash companies collect used appliances (including water heaters) from off the side of the road once each quarter (every three months) so I always keep an eye out the weekend before the collection date and pickup all the water heaters I see. BUT, I have never used a new one for anything so can only guess about that, but my thought would be this: each of the heater tanks I am using now had been used for water heating for years before I got ahold of them. I KNOW they have lasted from five years to nine years (and still counting) so I would think it would be safe to say a new water heater tank should easily give you ten years of service, if you buy a quality one to start with. But a suggestion; if this will be your first 'project' using a water heater tank, why not see if you can find one at a local salvage yard or dump. The days of 'freebies from those kind of places are over (at least everyplace I know of) but the 'scrapper' is only going to get five dollars tops for the old heater, so they'd surely sell you one for ten bucks??? That would be a much smaller investment then a new water heater. However, if you have some experience with your project already and want to make sure you start with a good tank, maybe new would be the way to go? I guess only you can make that choice, but based on my own personal uses, a used tank will give you a good deal of service and provides a very inexpensive way to 'experiment'. BTW, I have built several other cookers and stills since those first ones and in some projects I have use one inch steel plate (for fireboxes and support walls of a digester) and a couple of heavy gauge stainless steel tanks, but the old water heaters are still used regularly and are going fine. To be fair, the two waste-oil burners I built (one sixty gallons and one eighty gallons) are only used regularly about four months each year and then sporadically through the rest of the year. But on the other hand, they also take the most abuse and extreme heat conditions. Hope that helps a little, and I'm sure there are others on this list with a lot more experience using water heaters then I. I got my original ideas and plans from a Mother Earth News magazine from 1980, so there are a lot of people that have been doing this much longer then I have. My 'experience' only started in 1996. GOOD LUCK and happy fueling. Bob C. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water heater
Sorry, that's false. It should have read: A water heater will not leak unless you are on vacation. Mike Weaver wrote: 5-15 years, then they start leaking. Bob Clark wrote: Marty Phee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will a water heater ware out/rust out? Say if you start from a new heater. How long can you expect it to last? Marty, and all I am currently using six water heaters that have been in service for a little over five years. (One has actually been operating as a waste oil burner since 1996) and to date I have seen no sign of rust through and/or burn out. I have several more used water heaters that I am in the midst of converting for one project or another. ALL of the ones I am using were used to start with. One had a small leak in the seam when I originally obtained it, but I am lucky enough to have a complete steel fabrication shop here so repairing that wasn't too difficult. I have two electric tanks that I left the heating elements in to use as pre-heaters. Others are my first 'still' experiments and are fired with a modified propane burner, now running on methane gas. Those two would be the ones that I suspect will burn out first (the bottom area) so I keep a closer eye on them, but so far no sign of trouble. In our area the local trash companies collect used appliances (including water heaters) from off the side of the road once each quarter (every three months) so I always keep an eye out the weekend before the collection date and pickup all the water heaters I see. BUT, I have never used a new one for anything so can only guess about that, but my thought would be this: each of the heater tanks I am using now had been used for water heating for years before I got ahold of them. I KNOW they have lasted from five years to nine years (and still counting) so I would think it would be safe to say a new water heater tank should easily give you ten years of service, if you buy a quality one to start with. But a suggestion; if this will be your first 'project' using a water heater tank, why not see if you can find one at a local salvage yard or dump. The days of 'freebies from those kind of places are over (at least everyplace I know of) but the 'scrapper' is only going to get five dollars tops for the old heater, so they'd surely sell you one for ten bucks??? That would be a much smaller investment then a new water heater. However, if you have some experience with your project already and want to make sure you start with a good tank, maybe new would be the way to go? I guess only you can make that choice, but based on my own personal uses, a used tank will give you a good deal of service and provides a very inexpensive way to 'experiment'. BTW, I have built several other cookers and stills since those first ones and in some projects I have use one inch steel plate (for fireboxes and support walls of a digester) and a couple of heavy gauge stainless steel tanks, but the old water heaters are still used regularly and are going fine. To be fair, the two waste-oil burners I built (one sixty gallons and one eighty gallons) are only used regularly about four months each year and then sporadically through the rest of the year. But on the other hand, they also take the most abuse and extreme heat conditions. Hope that helps a little, and I'm sure there are others on this list with a lot more experience using water heaters then I. I got my original ideas and plans from a Mother Earth News magazine from 1980, so there are a lot of people that have been doing this much longer then I have. My 'experience' only started in 1996. GOOD LUCK and happy fueling. Bob C. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water heater
Thanks for the info. My friend and I are going to do this. I'd like to start with a proven design and go from there and he has grand plans of how to do everything. I really don't have room to do it and he does so I need to give him leeway in the design. Bob Clark wrote: Marty Phee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will a water heater ware out/rust out? Say if you start from a new heater. How long can you expect it to last? Marty, and all I am currently using six water heaters that have been in service for a little over five years. (One has actually been operating as a waste oil burner since 1996) and to date I have seen no sign of rust through and/or burn out. I have several more used water heaters that I am in the midst of converting for one project or another. ALL of the ones I am using were used to start with. One had a small leak in the seam when I originally obtained it, but I am lucky enough to have a complete steel fabrication shop here so repairing that wasn't too difficult. I have two electric tanks that I left the heating elements in to use as pre-heaters. Others are my first 'still' experiments and are fired with a modified propane burner, now running on methane gas. Those two would be the ones that I suspect will burn out first (the bottom area) so I keep a closer eye on them, but so far no sign of trouble. In our area the local trash companies collect used appliances (including water heaters) from off the side of the road once each quarter (every three months) so I always keep an eye out the weekend before the collection date and pickup all the water heaters I see. BUT, I have never used a new one for anything so can only guess about that, but my thought would be this: each of the heater tanks I am using now had been used for water heating for years before I got ahold of them. I KNOW they have lasted from five years to nine years (and still counting) so I would think it would be safe to say a new water heater tank should easily give you ten years of service, if you buy a quality one to start with. But a suggestion; if this will be your first 'project' using a water heater tank, why not see if you can find one at a local salvage yard or dump. The days of 'freebies from those kind of places are over (at least everyplace I know of) but the 'scrapper' is only going to get five dollars tops for the old heater, so they'd surely sell you one for ten bucks??? That would be a much smaller investment then a new water heater. However, if you have some experience with your project already and want to make sure you start with a good tank, maybe new would be the way to go? I guess only you can make that choice, but based on my own personal uses, a used tank will give you a good deal of service and provides a very inexpensive way to 'experiment'. BTW, I have built several other cookers and stills since those first ones and in some projects I have use one inch steel plate (for fireboxes and support walls of a digester) and a couple of heavy gauge stainless steel tanks, but the old water heaters are still used regularly and are going fine. To be fair, the two waste-oil burners I built (one sixty gallons and one eighty gallons) are only used regularly about four months each year and then sporadically through the rest of the year. But on the other hand, they also take the most abuse and extreme heat conditions. Hope that helps a little, and I'm sure there are others on this list with a lot more experience using water heaters then I. I got my original ideas and plans from a Mother Earth News magazine from 1980, so there are a lot of people that have been doing this much longer then I have. My 'experience' only started in 1996. GOOD LUCK and happy fueling. Bob C. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water heater
Marty, and all, I have to respectfully disagree with Bob C. on this one. The days of freebies are still very much alive! It might just be an issue of where you seek your freebies : ) Since approx. March of this year, I have been able to get 18 used water heaters. My only cost has been the time, and expense it takes to go and pick them up from 3 different plumbing/hardware shops in my local area. Had I wanted them, I would estimate that I could have had at least twice that many, although I would probably be divorced and living out of them right now had I accepted them all. There's really no secret to getting as many as you need. For most folks, I would think that one or two tanks would fine, but that would depend on your intentions. Find a local plumbing shop, or Hardware store (not a huge retail chain) that sells and installs what they sell and ask them what they do with the old water heaters that they remove during their installs. In my part of the world, two of the contractors bring the old water heaters back to their shops and dump them out back. Then, when this particular area get's full enough they call the scrap man and he comes and hauls them all away to the scrap metal yard for, as Bob C. noted, a fee. If you are willing to go and pick up a few of them for no fee, that's usually great news to these pro's! Good luck hunting water heaters! On 8/30/05, Marty Phee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the info.My friend and I are going to do this.I'd like tostart with a proven design and go from there and he has grand plans ofhow to do everything.I really don't have room to do it and he does so I need to give him leeway in the design.Bob Clark wrote: Marty Phee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Will a water heater ware out/rust out?Say if you start from a new heater.How long can you expect it to last?Marty, and allI am currently using six water heaters that have been in service for a little over five years. (One has actually been operating as a waste oil burner since 1996) and to date I have seen no sign of rust through and/or burn out. I have several more used water heaters that I am in the midst of converting for one project or another. ALL of the ones I am using were used to start with. One had a small leak in the seam when I originally obtained it, but I am lucky enough to have a complete steel fabrication shop here so repairing that wasn't too difficult. I have two electric tanks that I left the heating elements in to use as pre-heaters. Others are my first 'still' experiments and are fired with a modified propane burner, now running on methane gas. Those two would be the ones that I suspect will burn out first (the bottom area) so I keep a closer eye on them, but so far no sign of trouble.In our area the local trash companies collect used appliances (including water heaters) from off the side of the road once each quarter (every three months) so I always keep an eye out the weekend before the collection date and pickup all the water heaters I see. BUT, I have never used a new one for anything so can only guess about that, but my thought would be this: each of the heater tanks I am using now had been used for water heating for years before I got ahold of them. I KNOW they have lasted from five years to nine years (and still counting) so I would think it would be safe to say a new water heater tank should easily give you ten years of service, if you buy a quality one to start with. But a suggestion; if this will be your first 'project' using a water heater tank, why not see if you can find one at a local salvage yard or dump. The days of 'freebies from those kind of places are over (at least everyplace I know of) but the 'scrapper' is only going to get five dollars tops for the old heater, so they'd surely sell you one for ten bucks??? That would be a much smaller investment then a new water heater. However, if you have some experience with your project already and want to make sure you start with a good tank, maybe new would be the way to go? I guess only you can make that choice, but based on my own personal uses, a used tank will give you a good deal of service and provides a very inexpensive way to 'experiment'. BTW, I have built several other cookers and stills since those first ones and in some projects I have use one inch steel plate (for fireboxes and support walls of a digester) and a couple of heavy gauge stainless steel tanks, but the old water heaters are still used regularly and are going fine. To be fair, the two waste-oil burners I built (one sixty gallons and one eighty gallons) are only used regularly about four months each year and then sporadically through the rest of the year. But on the other hand, they also take the most abuse and extreme heat conditions.Hope that helps a little, and I'm sure there are others on this list with a lot more experience using water heaters then I. I got my original ideas and plans from a Mother Earth News magazine from 1980, so there are a lot of
[Biofuel] Water heater
Will a water heater ware out/rust out? Say if you start from a new heater. How long can you expect it to last? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[biofuel] Water Heater Warning
Good day; Having just finished installing the electricals on my reactor (water heater) this weekend I thought I would pass along a potential risk when converting these to 120V from their 240V original. I don't know about most but the one I got had a square flanged heating element and the 120V conversion element is screw in round. This in and of itself is not a major problem, although a word of warning is in order. The conversion flange can be bought wherever they sell the heaters, just ask. What happems though is that once you have disabled the upper element and installed the conversion flange to be able to screw in your 120V element the lower one now sticks out further than it did originally with the flat square flange so that you are not able to put the metal plate back on the lower part without getting contact of the poles and shorting out the unit. A work around would be to use a ball pean hammer and dent out a space for the protruding element or simply not replace the lower plate and cover the lot with insulation, duct tape itin place and then proceed to complete the extra insulation required by this sort of design that enables it to hold in it's heat better for a more complete reaction and settling of the glycerine layer. Mine is also equiped with an emergency overheat cut off similar to a fuel cut off in a car or electrical breaker switch should things get too hot. To reset all one has to do is push the button back in, something like the breaker switch, but the problem is that you have installed all that extra insulation around the body of the water heater/reactor, so it would be very helpful when wrapping the extra insulation to cut out a flap type door in it so that you have access to the lower control area of the immersion heater element should you want to use it for methanol recovery or should the emergency cut off reset pop out and you need to get at it. This week I am installing the insulation on my unit now that the electricals are all done. I now have a really neat electrical control box that my brother-in-law made (he's an electrician)that has breakers as on/off switches and corresponding twist-lock entries for my pre-heat tank (equiped with a 120V immersion heater element), my 1 clear water pump, and another for my reactor. Also included is a regular double entry electrical outlet for things such as the lights,the bubbler should I choose to use one, the hot plate for use during titration so I can have warm water to keep all that iso warm, the blender for test batches ect... The whole unit is 120V so it can be plugged in anywhere 120V is available. The breakers are all 15A so as to not overload the system. The control box also has an emergency kill switch that cuts ALL power to everything should I need to make an emergency halt for whatever reason. My first attempts will be to use the 30 liter pre-heat tank as larger test batches before foraging into full 100 liter processing. The pre-heat tank is also equiped with a standard garden hose drain and once I get a paint stirring attachment for the drill I can use the pre-heat tank to both process and then subsequently wash the BD after draining the glycerine via the garden hose drain at the very bottom. This pre-heat tank, of course, is not 100% necessary, although it assures that when I do load the reactor it will be with hot oil so that the pump won't have to work quite so hard to get it flowing and I have it set up at a hgher level so the il will be gravity fed into the pump. Another neat idea that the bro-in-law came up with ( that is not yet tested) is to attach a small ball valve with tube into the priming port of the pump and that way fresh canola oil can be loaded via this tube to prime the pump instead of opening the screw down cap, filling and then replacing the cap and hoping that you did it right. With the attachment you open the fresh oil feed/primer and it keeps on coming until you can see that the pump is doing it's things properly and you then simply close the ball valve. So far this all sounds great in theory but the real test will come when I actually try it out in the real world, I'll post a result even if it is embarrassing :) L. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
Re: [biofuel] Water Heater Warning
bioveging wrote: Good day; Having just finished installing the electricals on my reactor (water heater) this weekend I thought I would pass along a potential risk when converting these to 120V from their 240V original. I don't know about most but the one I got had a square flanged heating element and the 120V conversion element is screw in round. This in and of itself is not a major problem, although a word of warning is in order. The conversion flange can be bought wherever they sell the heaters, just ask. What happems though is that once you have disabled the upper element and installed the conversion flange to be able to screw in your 120V element the lower one now sticks out further than it did originally with the flat square flange so that you are not able to put the metal plate back on the lower part without getting contact of the poles and shorting out the unit. A work around would be to use a ball pean hammer and dent out a space for the protruding element or simply not replace the lower plate and cover the lot with insulation, duct tape itin place and then proceed to complete the extra insulation required by this sort of design that enables it to hold in it's heat better for a more complete reaction and settling of the glycerine layer. A GFCI would be in order here as well. Make sure you ground the tank properly. It will shut of the power if something shorts to ground. [Like a human finger..] -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
