Re: [Biofuel] What is factory farming?
To my mind, it is really intensive farming vs non-intensive farming. In Asia, even small farms are generally intensive. I have seen some small free-range poultry farms where chickens and ducks are given about 2 to 3 sq ft of space per bird, in an enclosed yard. That's intensive. Off the ground, in sheds, the birds generally have 1.2 sq ft of space per bird. Put in ventilation, the space is reduced to 0.75sq ft. Farms like this are purpose-build for viral mutation and clearly non-sustainable in all sense of the word. What is non-intensive? I have grown pastured chickens on the same piece of land for 7 years now and have no disease outbreak in that time. I give each bird 20 sq ft of land, and move them every couple of weeks. Of cos, the other issue we have to address is that if we all start non-intensive farms, we will soon run out of land, which will bring up a new set of problems altogether. Regards HS --- Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings, I have been thinking about the problems with factory farms vs sustainable farms. I appears, to me at least, that the debate has an erroneous assumption; that all large farms are factory and that most small farms are sustainable. This is totally false. Regards, HS Wong Visit my farm: www.dqcleanchicken.com Find out about the most important chicken: www.junglefowl.org You can contribute to sustainability: www.sustainablelivingcentre.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] What is factory farming?
To my mind, it is really intensive farming vs non-intensive farming. But there are many kinds of intensive farming that are fully sustainable and not at all inhumane. Eg, the French Intensive methods used by John Jeavons, or the traditional Chinese farming system still used all over Southeast Asia and elsewhere, top name but two. Factory farming is not described by saying it is intensive. In Asia, even small farms are generally intensive. The smaller they are the more intensive they tend to be, and the bigger they are (as with farms everywhere) the less productive they are. I have seen some small free-range poultry farms where chickens and ducks are given about 2 to 3 sq ft of space per bird, in an enclosed yard. That's intensive. If that's all they do, just raise poultry by itself, a specialised operation not in association with other types of crop production, ie a monocrop, then this does approach factory farming. Off the ground, in sheds, the birds generally have 1.2 sq ft of space per bird. Put in ventilation, the space is reduced to 0.75sq ft. Farms like this are purpose-build for viral mutation and clearly non-sustainable in all sense of the word. I fully agree. What is non-intensive? I have grown pastured chickens on the same piece of land for 7 years now and have no disease outbreak in that time. I give each bird 20 sq ft of land, and move them every couple of weeks. Of cos, the other issue we have to address is that if we all start non-intensive farms, we will soon run out of land, which will bring up a new set of problems altogether. That's not so. There's no room for industrialised agriculture of any kind, for any reason: take it away, along with the so-called crops it produces (commodities meant for trade, not food meant to be eaten by people), and there's plenty of room. Regards HS --- Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings, I have been thinking about the problems with factory farms vs sustainable farms. I appears, to me at least, that the debate has an erroneous assumption; that all large farms are factory and that most small farms are sustainable. This is totally false. Yes, that's totally false. Regards Keith Regards, HS Wong Visit my farm: www.dqcleanchicken.com Find out about the most important chicken: www.junglefowl.org You can contribute to sustainability: www.sustainablelivingcentre.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] What is factory farming?
Actually the difference is whether or not we see the land as a resource to be used up or as something to be improved. Many good types of farming are extremely intensive. But not monocrop, intensive. Square foot gardening is a great example. You mix plants, those that have short roots with those that have long roots; you use companion planting so the bugs can't find what they want to eat; you mix tall skinny plants with bushy plants so everything has room to grow. And that garden bed is really full. Very intensive use of the land, but not factory by any definition. It is the single crop, depleting the soil that is a problem. It is chemicals, overused rather than managed use to build the soil that is factory. Bright Blessings, Kim At 10:07 PM 3/13/2005, you wrote: To my mind, it is really intensive farming vs non-intensive farming. In Asia, even small farms are generally intensive. I have seen some small free-range poultry farms where chickens and ducks are given about 2 to 3 sq ft of space per bird, in an enclosed yard. That's intensive. Off the ground, in sheds, the birds generally have 1.2 sq ft of space per bird. Put in ventilation, the space is reduced to 0.75sq ft. Farms like this are purpose-build for viral mutation and clearly non-sustainable in all sense of the word. What is non-intensive? I have grown pastured chickens on the same piece of land for 7 years now and have no disease outbreak in that time. I give each bird 20 sq ft of land, and move them every couple of weeks. Of cos, the other issue we have to address is that if we all start non-intensive farms, we will soon run out of land, which will bring up a new set of problems altogether. Regards HS --- Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings, I have been thinking about the problems with factory farms vs sustainable farms. I appears, to me at least, that the debate has an erroneous assumption; that all large farms are factory and that most small farms are sustainable. This is totally false. Regards, HS Wong Visit my farm: www.dqcleanchicken.com Find out about the most important chicken: www.junglefowl.org You can contribute to sustainability: www.sustainablelivingcentre.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] What is factory farming?
Agreed. Traditionally, in my country, you will have a small piece of land around your house, intensively grown with a variety of plants, all done without fertilisers and pesticides. I am doing that now, creating little forests of trees - some aromatics intermixed with fruits, companion planting,etc. One thing I have discovered is that as the years past and you keep adding organic material to the soil, and not disturb the soil, the entire area comprising of organic rich soil, trees, plants, etc. will emit very strong qi. It is always a pleasure for me in the mornings to walk amongst the trees and feel this tingling, ticking emissions from the soil and the trees. I don't feel this in traditional chemical farms. Regards HS --- Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings, Actually the difference is whether or not we see the land as a resource to be used up or as something to be improved. Many good types of farming are extremely intensive. But not monocrop, intensive. Square foot gardening is a great example. You mix plants, those that have short roots with those that have long roots; you use companion planting so the bugs can't find what they want to eat; you mix tall skinny plants with bushy plants so everything has room to grow. And that garden bed is really full. Very intensive use of the land, but not factory by any definition. It is the single crop, depleting the soil that is a problem. It is chemicals, overused rather than managed use to build the soil that is factory. Bright Blessings, Kim Regards, HS Wong Visit my farm: www.dqcleanchicken.com Find out about the most important chicken: www.junglefowl.org You can contribute to sustainability: www.sustainablelivingcentre.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] What is factory farming?
Thanks Keith, for clarifying. In many ways, my farming methods are intensive but sustainable - more output than inputs, soil becoming richer with each passing year rather than being depleted, etc. But on the whole, I am not hopeful all said and done. In my country we have some of the oldest rainforests in the world and recently 2000 acres was cleared by a friend of mine to start an organic sustainable farm to produce vegetables, fruits, meat for export. Regards HS --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But there are many kinds of intensive farming that are fully sustainable and not at all inhumane. Eg, the French Intensive methods used by John Jeavons, or the traditional Chinese farming system still used all over Southeast Asia and elsewhere, top name but two. Factory farming is not described by saying it is intensive. In Asia, even small farms are generally intensive. The smaller they are the more intensive they tend to be, and the bigger they are (as with farms everywhere) the less productive they are. I have seen some small free-range poultry farms where chickens and ducks are given about 2 to 3 sq ft of space per bird, in an enclosed yard. That's intensive. If that's all they do, just raise poultry by itself, a specialised operation not in association with other types of crop production, ie a monocrop, then this does approach factory farming. Off the ground, in sheds, the birds generally have 1.2 sq ft of space per bird. Put in ventilation, the space is reduced to 0.75sq ft. Farms like this are purpose-build for viral mutation and clearly non-sustainable in all sense of the word. I fully agree. What is non-intensive? I have grown pastured chickens on the same piece of land for 7 years now and have no disease outbreak in that time. I give each bird 20 sq ft of land, and move them every couple of weeks. Of cos, the other issue we have to address is that if we all start non-intensive farms, we will soon run out of land, which will bring up a new set of problems altogether. That's not so. There's no room for industrialised agriculture of any kind, for any reason: take it away, along with the so-called crops it produces (commodities meant for trade, not food meant to be eaten by people), and there's plenty of room. Regards, HS Wong Visit my farm: www.dqcleanchicken.com Find out about the most important chicken: www.junglefowl.org You can contribute to sustainability: www.sustainablelivingcentre.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] What is factory farming?
Well said. Thanks. --- Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fair? Maybe, Phillip, but is it practical and applicable? Not to overwhelm the natural resources over the generations, something had to keep the human population in check. What where those events and are they something modern day man would accept? Sounding like a stuck record, there is a finite number of humans the earth can support in the manner the Yokuts did. The day of expansion to new areas of resources has long passed, unless colonization in space is over the horizon. For quite some time now man by, agriculture and animal husbandry has been able to coerce the Earth to support our growing numbers and perhaps by wiser use man may be able to extend the current period, but for how much longer? Doug, N0LKK [EMAIL PROTECTED] What is good for the GM customers and GM employees is what's good for GM and America. - Original Message - From: Phillip Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] What is factory farming? : The San Joaquin Valley California lands and farms are : facing the same issues - urban pressure. May we look : at other countries for some examples of how family : farms survived over many many generations? Perhaps : others on this listserv can provide examples. For : example, the California Yokut indigenous tribes of : Califonria survied for thousands of years in the : Central Valley basin of California. Is it fair to : compare their ability to sustain over multiple : generations by living with nature VS the modern : society of mixed urban and agriculture and material : gain vs. other? : : http://bss.sfsu.edu/calstudies/NativeWebPages/yokut%20page.html : : Respectfully Submitted : Phillip Wolfe ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] What is factory farming?
I have been thinking about the problems with factory farms vs sustainable farms. I appears, to me at least, that the debate has an erroneous assumption; that all large farms are factory and that most small farms are sustainable. This is totally false. I have seen some small 5 to 7 acre homesteads that can outdo any large farm for pollution. The worst offenders I have seen are the people who raise ducks and geese, by the hundreds on a couple of acres. I have also seen a 5000 acre farm, farmed by 3 generations of a family that is moving steadily towards true sustainability. Incorporating the use of chicken tractors for fertility, goats for weed control and other measure to nurture the land of a huge dairy and beef cattle farm. As more and more intentional communities are formed, we are seeing more and more large sustainable farms. It has become clear that we need to look beyond the size and output of a farm to decide what type it actually is. Bright Blessigns, Kim Aarghhh! Kim! You misspelt Blessigns! The sky will fall on our heads! LOL! (Well, it seems it will anyway, no use blaming you...) Anyway... The ley farms I've been talking of are not small farms, up to a thousand acres and more. These are sustainable farms and they're humane. See: Ley Farming http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#ley (So glad you like our Farm library.) On the other hand, all you need for battery chickens is a shed. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] What is factory farming?
I have been thinking about the problems with factory farms vs sustainable farms. I appears, to me at least, that the debate has an erroneous assumption; that all large farms are factory and that most small farms are sustainable. This is totally false. I have seen some small 5 to 7 acre homesteads that can outdo any large farm for pollution. The worst offenders I have seen are the people who raise ducks and geese, by the hundreds on a couple of acres. I have also seen a 5000 acre farm, farmed by 3 generations of a family that is moving steadily towards true sustainability. Incorporating the use of chicken tractors for fertility, goats for weed control and other measure to nurture the land of a huge dairy and beef cattle farm. As more and more intentional communities are formed, we are seeing more and more large sustainable farms. It has become clear that we need to look beyond the size and output of a farm to decide what type it actually is. Bright Blessigns, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] What is factory farming?
The San Joaquin Valley California lands and farms are facing the same issues - urban pressure. May we look at other countries for some examples of how family farms survived over many many generations? Perhaps others on this listserv can provide examples. For example, the California Yokut indigenous tribes of Califonria survied for thousands of years in the Central Valley basin of California. Is it fair to compare their ability to sustain over multiple generations by living with nature VS the modern society of mixed urban and agriculture and material gain vs. other? http://bss.sfsu.edu/calstudies/NativeWebPages/yokut%20page.html Respectfully Submitted Phillip Wolfe --- Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings, I have been thinking about the problems with factory farms vs sustainable farms. I appears, to me at least, that the debate has an erroneous assumption; that all large farms are factory and that most small farms are sustainable. This is totally false. I have seen some small 5 to 7 acre homesteads that can outdo any large farm for pollution. The worst offenders I have seen are the people who raise ducks and geese, by the hundreds on a couple of acres. I have also seen a 5000 acre farm, farmed by 3 generations of a family that is moving steadily towards true sustainability. Incorporating the use of chicken tractors for fertility, goats for weed control and other measure to nurture the land of a huge dairy and beef cattle farm. As more and more intentional communities are formed, we are seeing more and more large sustainable farms. It has become clear that we need to look beyond the size and output of a farm to decide what type it actually is. Bright Blessigns, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] What is factory farming?
Fair? Maybe, Phillip, but is it practical and applicable? Not to overwhelm the natural resources over the generations, something had to keep the human population in check. What where those events and are they something modern day man would accept? Sounding like a stuck record, there is a finite number of humans the earth can support in the manner the Yokuts did. The day of expansion to new areas of resources has long passed, unless colonization in space is over the horizon. For quite some time now man by, agriculture and animal husbandry has been able to coerce the Earth to support our growing numbers and perhaps by wiser use man may be able to extend the current period, but for how much longer? Doug, N0LKK [EMAIL PROTECTED] What is good for the GM customers and GM employees is what's good for GM and America. - Original Message - From: Phillip Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] What is factory farming? : The San Joaquin Valley California lands and farms are : facing the same issues - urban pressure. May we look : at other countries for some examples of how family : farms survived over many many generations? Perhaps : others on this listserv can provide examples. For : example, the California Yokut indigenous tribes of : Califonria survied for thousands of years in the : Central Valley basin of California. Is it fair to : compare their ability to sustain over multiple : generations by living with nature VS the modern : society of mixed urban and agriculture and material : gain vs. other? : : http://bss.sfsu.edu/calstudies/NativeWebPages/yokut%20page.html : : Respectfully Submitted : Phillip Wolfe ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
