Re: [Biofuel] acid/base process
Hi Jan, Ducan, Keith I already did both acid/base process and base process from the animal fat in 2-litre batch type according to instruction on JTF. The result was fine after setting over night. (I boiled out water from the fat before performing the processes.) So, I would like to know why %FFA is so important. As my experiment, % soap residue is reducing vary with wt. of NaOH not Volume of methanol. Also, if BD equation is equilibrium, why by the time the final result did not go backward be cause was got low %methanol and low %fat. regards, Karn Hello Duncan, Jan, Karn Hi Jan, In your mail Karn you said: Since you know the citric acid content, it will be easy to calculate the actual FFA value from the titration value. Given a FFA value (x) I've determined this empirical relationship (y=1.947x+3.5 - from values I got here http://asae.frymulti.com/abstract.asp?aid=4209t=2 for different feedstock) That paper is not held in very high regard. http://www.mail-archive.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?method=andformat=shortc onfig=biofuel_sustainablelists_orgrestrict=exclude=words=Canakci Or: http://snipurl.com/hh08 Search results for 'Canakci' to determine the number of grams KOH to add for acid/bass process. What grade KOH, 92% or 85%? t's figured out here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye Make your own biodiesel - page 2: More about lye The FFA% appears to be about half the number of ml of 0.1% w/v KOH solution. Is this correct? One of my suppliers gives me the FFA value - I'm busy checking this with my own titrations and will use there FFA value + equation instead of titration in the future. Why do you assume that the FFA% is the same as the acid level that you'll need to neutralise? I don't know if it is or not, but I don't think it is. Anyway, how will you figure how much of the FFA was esterified in the acid stage and therefore how much is left for the base stage to handle from the quantity of FFA (never mind which FFA) in the unprocessed oil? It all seems very roundabout to me. There are more simple and direct and effective ways of doing this, quite a few of them, I'm doing some of them even as we speak, or rather the processor is. Why don't you try going in exactly the opposite direction? It's not just a single-stage base transesterification with an extra acid stage tagged on the front. You need to look at it sideways. Bedst wishes Keith Regards, Duncan __ Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] acid/base process
Hello Kam, the citric acid content will be visualized on the titration value as FFA content. If the water content is low and the FFA level is acceptable, you can use the ordinary base trans-esterification technique. Since you know the citric acid content, it will be easy to calculate the actual FFA value from the titration value. Let me know how you plan to proceed. With best regards Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Karn Intania [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 5:47 AM Subject: [Biofuel] acid/base process Well, I've got an animal fat with 5%citric acid. I doubted that I can use an included citric acid instead of 95% sulfuric acid as catalyst, to perform acid/base process according ot JTF. Also, can anyone tell me how to test a result solution from base process (animal fat and methanol using catalyst with solid NaOH); to determine %methy ester and animal fat. regards, Karn __ Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] acid/base process
Hi Jan, In your mail Karn you said: Since you know the citric acid content, it will be easy to calculate the actual FFA value from the titration value. Given a FFA value (x) I've determined this empirical relationship (y=1.947x+3.5 - from values I got here http://asae.frymulti.com/abstract.asp?aid=4209t=2 for different feedstock) to determine the number of grams KOH to add for acid/bass process. The FFA% appears to be about half the number of ml of 0.1% w/v KOH solution. Is this correct? One of my suppliers gives me the FFA value - I'm busy checking this with my own titrations and will use there FFA value + equation instead of titration in the future. Regards, Duncan This E-mail message and its attachments are subject to the disclaimers published at http://www.barloworld-equipment.com/mail_disclaimer.htm Barloworld Equipment - 7 Values: Integrity + Uncompromising Customer Service + Long Term Customer Relationships + Passion For Our Brands + Professionalism + Effective Communication + Winning Through Team Work. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] acid/base process
Hello Duncan, Jan, Karn Hi Jan, In your mail Karn you said: Since you know the citric acid content, it will be easy to calculate the actual FFA value from the titration value. Given a FFA value (x) I've determined this empirical relationship (y=1.947x+3.5 - from values I got here http://asae.frymulti.com/abstract.asp?aid=4209t=2 for different feedstock) That paper is not held in very high regard. http://www.mail-archive.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?method=andformat=shortc onfig=biofuel_sustainablelists_orgrestrict=exclude=words=Canakci Or: http://snipurl.com/hh08 Search results for 'Canakci' to determine the number of grams KOH to add for acid/bass process. What grade KOH, 92% or 85%? t's figured out here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye Make your own biodiesel - page 2: More about lye The FFA% appears to be about half the number of ml of 0.1% w/v KOH solution. Is this correct? One of my suppliers gives me the FFA value - I'm busy checking this with my own titrations and will use there FFA value + equation instead of titration in the future. Why do you assume that the FFA% is the same as the acid level that you'll need to neutralise? I don't know if it is or not, but I don't think it is. Anyway, how will you figure how much of the FFA was esterified in the acid stage and therefore how much is left for the base stage to handle from the quantity of FFA (never mind which FFA) in the unprocessed oil? It all seems very roundabout to me. There are more simple and direct and effective ways of doing this, quite a few of them, I'm doing some of them even as we speak, or rather the processor is. Why don't you try going in exactly the opposite direction? It's not just a single-stage base transesterification with an extra acid stage tagged on the front. You need to look at it sideways. Bedst wishes Keith Regards, Duncan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
